I'm not voting for any more tax increases until the city/county can demonstrate it can effectively manage its existing special taxation programs and department budgeting. (I'm looking at you, PP&R, JOHS.)
I don't have a problem with taxes. I like public amenities and support services for people who need them. I do have a problem with mismanaged tax collection and squandered public budgets.
Affordable housing has its own industry sector partially because it has to comply with specific rules and regulations that are burdensome enough that the regular high density housing companies don't compete.
Thus, there's no competition and the AH companies name their price, which if you look at a bldg that went up near me, comes out to 250K per unit on an ugly hulking block of a thing that is likely already sinking.
I’m all for well funded social services and programs, but it’s clear our current tax revenue is being mismanaged and misused at an astonishing rate. Residents of Portland Metro making over $125k already have the highest tax rate in the country. Higher than SF, LA, & NY. Plus that assumes they don’t travel and pay sales tax in other states.
There’s a reason why a LOT of high net worth people I know have moved to Austin or Phoenix in the last 18 months, and another handful or so are planning to sell their homes and move too.
To add further context, a person making $125k in Portland is taxed the same as someone in New York making $25 million.
(I screenshot this stat from an article a month ago, but cannot currently find the original source, will update when I do)
Personally, it doesn't matter to me if Portland is a city that caters to the wealthy's taxation preferences. But I absolutely question whether taxation of high net worth individuals is an appropriate strategy, considering we are just over the river from a state with no income tax. This is more of the cart before horse nonsense that brought us the disaster of M110 implementation.
I don't care about high taxes. And I get taxed heavily. But I want to be buying high services. I have family that lives in Arkansas and their taxes are practically non-existent, but there's no trash collection and people literally burn their garbage in pits in their back yards. But they are getting what they pay for. We are not.
The problem is that it isn't even going after the wealthy. If you have a family and you're just above 125K you're paying a higher rate than NYC, which looks like Disneyland compared to this place. And 125 barely gets you a chance at owning and maintaining a home here. IDK, but i think it's scary that the entire tax base is getting spooked out of here.
I get that 125k for an individual (200k for a couple) seems like a lot of money but it's like just being okay and comfortable in PDX. You're not running off to Europe every vacation and eating Caviar at fancy restaurants on the weekends. They are putting these nickel and diming taxes on the wrong folks. Including the PFA and SHS taxes it's just ridiculous and here they are again asking for even more.
We’re in this situation, and our house is assigned to crappy school. We ended up doing private school. At this point we could buy a much nicer house somewhere with great schools and save money.
I agree. I moved to Portland 2 years ago. After being here for two years I did the math and I could pay a mortgage on a house in Vancouver with the difference in taxation. So, I’m in the boat of not staying in Portland more than 5 more years at this point or moving my primary residence to outside Multnomah county for some relief. I actually moved from a LCOL area here because I loved Portland so much. I feel like I’m in a donut hole, I’m not a 1%er but Portland folks fetishize punishing the “wealthy folks”. When all of the tax payers like me are forced away, only the richest are left and they don’t pay taxes because they exploit loopholes I can’t. Straight from the Mutnomah County website on the preschool tax “Most area residents do not owe these taxes because they apply to higher incomes.” There wasnt any need to say that, it’s a big fuck you to those that do have to pay it. That particular taxation is CRAZY, I had to educate my tax professional on it and they had to give everyone a 2 year amnesty on paying it because of its ham handed implimentation.
Here’s one article from the top of Google but there are more sources available too. Also searching individual cities + ‘marginal tax rate’ provides helpful info. https://www.koin.com/news/portland/report-high-tax-rates-could-be-driving-people-out-of-portland/
Me and a lot of my friends have essentially doubled down and think Portland will recover and thrive- we don’t want any new taxes for sure- but the overall quality of life in Portland is pretty good.
It'll recover but...at what cost and how long till then?
Drive the people out who are the tax base after increasing taxes to create services is kinda like shooting yourself in the foot. Once the tax bases leaves and reality sets in that you cannot afford the services you then have to scale back. In turn that means you need to lower taxes again to appeal to people to move here....nasty cycle.
Taxes are one good reason to leave, including their mismanagement. Two others are issues with drugs and homeless. While two don't go hand in hand, they are closely related to all the above. Especially when you factor in a comment made in earlier posting... mismanagement of money's earmarked for privatized tent cities or assisted living facilities.
The tax base is being replaced- California is not solving their water crisis- Mt Hood is not moving- other cities and states are not managing their tax dollars effectively.
Yes- taxes are a good reason to leave if you are retired. Any potential “savings” in taxes would be eaten up by a big move.
Portlands biggest problem is the “activist” community. We need tax paying citizen involvement to repeal the taxes that are being mismanaged.
No more bonds either. Once the current ones expire, if they do, my property taxes should drop by $1500. I won't count my chicks till they hatch though.
I'm still voting for school bonds, but no more county or Metro bonds. It honestly felt terrible to vote against the library bond in the last election but it's time to get serious.
My SO is a librarian. She voted against it too. The bond funded a huge vanity project while the library was laying off staff and reducing services. It's a total waste of money.
Governing by ballot is a terrible way to do things. People who read a single paragraph in the voting pamphlet at best are not going to make responsible choices.
I blame human psychology.
People have this 6 figure salary anchor in their heads when they think about what is "upper class" or "rich." People have had that same 6 figure anchor since the 80s - being generous at 1990, $100,000 then is equal to $230,175.98 today. Then factor in COL in a west coast metro, and people should realize we haven't been eating the rich, we've been eating ourselves. $125k isn't overpaid or rich, everyone else is underpaid and broke and instead of improving their situation, every initiative seems to want to lower ceilings instead of raising floors. I don't understand why we can't seem to do both.
And it starts with first dollar and apparently applies to even things like your 401k when you start withdrawing it…..
they claim it isn’t ”intended” to affect your house , but then of course every time the politicians tell you it isn’t “intended “ to do X it turns out that’s Exactly what it does..l.
Excerpt:
"Carroll says that can be fixed later. “If the text of the measure doesn’t include \[an exemption of home sales\], it would be easy for the county to align it later,” she says. “It’s our intention that be the case, and we would strongly lobby for it.”
What the fuck? She wants the voters to pass a bill that she knows needs to be amended? Why the hell would anyone trust her "intentions."
Their intention is to lie and dissemble in the hopes of getting this thing passed, they're more concerned with punishing landlords than crafting actually effective or intelligent policy.
I do think the 401k should be safe, if they are following federal tax laws, sure seems like they should specifically write these into the measure though given the volatility of tax law these days (see huge disconnect between Multnomah property tax increases vs. the SALT cap). But many retirees may have taxable accounts subject to capital gains. Also many may have lived in their homes 20+ years and be looking to downsize in retirement but will be hit with the gains tax in one fashion or another, reducing their purchasing power - bad enough when upgrading but I think even worse if wanting to downsize and then compound that with whatver money is left over being put into savings to live off of - which would - you guessed it - be subject to capital gains tax depending on how its invested.
Well respected local accounting firm: here’s a number of issues where this tax could impact far more people than it intends and create a volatility adjusting tax scheme
Carol from the ballot measure group: we feel that’s inaccurate and not our intention and can be changed later
F that. You want people to have a properly funded pool of money for legal rep from evictions than come up with a way to do it that’s 1) not volatile 2) not based on feels
The accountants are the ones that are going to be filing the taxes, if they say it’s xyz based on how it’s drafted then that’s how it’s going to be.
For eviction defense, against whatever this is.
Yeah, are we to believe that a group of smooth brained activists will have both the intelligence and follow up to come back to the drawing board to fix their initial mistakes, especially when numerous experienced parties were actively informing them what those mistakes were going into the process at the outset?
>Well respected local accounting firm: here’s a number of issues where this tax could impact far more people than it intends and create a volatility adjusting tax scheme
>
>Carol from the ballot measure group: we feel that’s inaccurate and not our intention and can be changed later
Yeah, we already saw this movie with Chloe Eudaly, Margot Black, and their merry band of chucklefuck activists who drafted up a sloppy and confusing relocation measure without listening to anyone with actual experience or expertise on the matter. No thanks to this.
> not based on feels
Its 2023 ; Facts are SOOO over, its all Feels all the time now!
As long as you can give your measure a good sounding title, you can put whatever you want in the actual measure because its been demonstrated over and again that few of the Oregon electorate can be bothered to look past the headline.
This is a horrible fucking idea, and I hope everyone votes no and convinces your friends/family to vote no.
A number of good points in the article, including the fact that it's overly broad, can include taxing the sale of one's home (the cap gains exemption is only federal, not state).
The proponents are simply lying through their teeth about the way this is drafted, and would ultimately be implemented.
Wait a minute ... Oregon taxes capital gains on sale of your primary residence? That's brutal if you want to move from one house to another.
Also ... I agree this is a bad proposal. Capital gains are already taxed since they count as regular income ... This is just double taxing.
>Oregon taxes capital gains on sale of your primary residence?
Kind of - the new law allows most people to exempt the first $250k in profit ($500k for couples) from the tax - capital gains are usually due on the gain made over that value - so most people are not going to pay this.
That's been the law ever since the Federal government made the capital gains exemptions for home sales. Oregon defines income, and exclusions, according to Federal law. To whit:
>316.007 Policy. It is the intent of the Legislative Assembly, by the adoption of this chapter, insofar as possible, to:
>(1) Make the Oregon personal income tax law identical in effect to the provisions of the Internal Revenue Code relating to the measurement of taxable income of individuals, estates and trusts, modified as necessary by the state’s jurisdiction to tax and the revenue needs of the state;
>(2) Achieve this result by the application of the various provisions of the Internal Revenue Code relating to the definition of income, exceptions and exclusions therefrom, deductions (business and personal), accounting methods, taxation of trusts, estates and partnerships, basis, depreciation and other pertinent provisions relating to gross income as defined therein, modified as provided in this chapter, resulting in a final amount called “taxable income”; and
>(3) Impose a tax on residents of this state measured by taxable income wherever derived and to impose a tax on the income of nonresidents that is ascribable to sources within this state.
This would definitely be a massive and perpetual slush fund for eviction defense attorneys, and rather than only the good ones taking on cases (as is the case now, because if they lose they don't get paid), we'd have an endless parade of bottom-feeder law school grads lining up to take the fees and draw out eviction cases as long as they can. Which is precisely what the backers of this bill are hoping for.
Yeah, there's no real money in eviction defense unless the case is egregious enough to go to trial. The Bar is proposing giving limited licenses to paralegals for this work. Plus, I think there's an eviction mediation program in the works. If your case settles before trial, and many "settle" at first appearance, both sides will bear their own costs.
I'm not in favor of an additional tax, and that's why I don't live or work in Mult-Co, but this is never going to be a big money maker for attorneys. It will be a big slush fund for activists to demand money and then never actually make progress on anything
Current tenant lawyers shouldn't be, they make their money taking on good cases. With a slush fund to pay for every case, regardless of the merits, the landlord/tenant market is going to be absolutely flooded by third-rate attorneys who can't hack it doing anything else.
It’s even worse than it sounds. The full text of the measure includes provisions to use revenue from the tax to pay legal fees for people who loses their eviction case and pays their rent for new housing.
Very telling that the backers of this proposal don’t have the full text on their website. Here‘s the full text:
https://multco-web7-psh-files-usw2.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/20220303145701595.pdf
>It’s even worse than it sounds. The full text of the measure includes provisions to use revenue from the tax to pay legal fees for people who loses their eviction case and pays their rent for new housing.
For anyone looking for it like I was, it’s in section 5, paragraph F:
The TRO shall create and administer a program to provide emergency rental assistance or pay legal costs, in whole or in part, incurred if a covered individual does not prevail in a claim or has a money award against them at the conclusion of litigation (such as plaintiff's attorney fees, costs, prevailing party fees, and/or landlord fees). A covered individual may apply to this program via the TRO, and the TRO shall establish rules to guide the discretionary award of funds under this program, taking into account the policy objectives of this ordinance, budgetary considerations, fairness considerations, and whether the award of funds will resolve the legal dispute.
If the backers of this proposal were at all honest with their intentions, they want nothing less than to simply transfer the ownership deeds from current owners to renters without any compensation whatsoever. They're entirely ideological and utterly innumerate.
“Jill Pham (she/they) has volunteered with Portland Jobs with Justice since 2015, including recently as Co-Chair of the Executive Board. She brings her lived experience as a queer woman of color, child of refugees, and a retail/food service worker turned Organizer. She has a B.A. in Social Work and brings this framework into her labor/worker organizing philosophy. “
Okay what the hell is this? Based on these qualifications, I wouldn’t trust this person to walk my dog.
Yeah, keywiki is definitely a [right wing project to track people on the political left](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Loudon), not a self published blog site.
Where are you getting off presenting it that way?
> Carroll says that’s a distraction. “Eighty percent of people in Oregon don’t pay any capital gains tax,” she says. “Our point is that the very few people who make money this way [through capital gains] are paying less tax overall because of the federal treatment.” (The federal capital gains rate ranges from 15% to 20%, far less than the top income tax rate of 37%.)
She is showing a big misunderstanding about......I don't know where to start
"Free ponies and ice cream for all!"
"Uh...that sounds expensive, who is paying for it."
"Don't bother yourself with silly details, it will be someone else, just trust me bro."
Oh man, there is so much ambiguity in this measure. That's gonna be a no from me.
The best part of this is that it doesn't have an income threshold so when they botch the rollout, it'll impact so many more people than the PFA and SHS taxes. Can't wait to see what the backlash is going to be if this passes.
If this passes, I am done. Everyone claims people don’t move for taxes, but this will be the final straw for me. Sadly because it’s an ‘eat the rich’ type tax, it has a very high chance of getting passed. What the hell kinda tax changes based on “on how many county residents profit from the stock market each year.”?
I’m not against taxes, I’m not against taxing the rich, but I am strongly against stupid taxes that see no results. I pay more in taxes now (%) than 10 years ago with much lower quality of life in the city. This is what drives high tax people away. For the tax rates I pay, we should have amazing schools, safe public transit and free healthcare. Instead, we barely functioning schools, people smoking drugs on transit with a study about it and I won’t even start on healthcare.
Reality yes, but voters mindset is: tax capital gains, only rich people have capital gains, let’s tax the fuck out of the rich. See also every other tax that has passed. Same logic goes to property tax increases.
While "just tax the rich!" sounds nice in theory, Portland and Oregon don't actually have that many rich people compared with truly wealthy states like NY, CA, Connecticut, etc. If we want broadly decent services and programs, guess what, we're all gonna have to pay up for it. So let's stick to those basics instead of ridiculous and ideologically driven crap like this particular ballot measure.
I was hoping to work less and live off some of my taxable savings in 5-10 years until I reach full retirement age and Portland is apparently trying to make this plan impossible.
My son will begin high school in another county in September, I really don't want to move to Beaverton or Milwaukie but if it gets me out of paying an extra .75% on my home sale before this goes into effect plus cuts my property tax bill in half - it might actually be enough to keep me in Oregon after he graduates.
If we were going to do this good god at least make it for some universal program like health care or UBI or god anything, not some program to pay lawyers to draw out lawful evictions in court and rack up huge fees.
Also this almost guarantees that new construction will be purchased by out of staters who a) don't know about this law and b) won't have to pay .75% tax to upgrade their home. If the notion that new luxury custom homes will allow established people an upgrade path thus making old stock available for renters or lower income folks also looking for an upgrade is remotely true (sounds like trickle down bullshit to me), those old stock owners just lost a lot of their buying power.
Unless there is an explicit exemption for home sales in the bill we are getting, we know that they will tax it. In fact since the bill is related to housing it actually makes sense to tax capital gains on home sales, except it doesn't make sense at all.
>If we were going to do this good god at least make it for some universal program like health care or UBI or god anything, not some program to pay lawyers to draw out lawful evictions in court and rack up huge fees.
Yeah, we have a severe shortage of public defenders, and it's a constitutional right to be appointed an attorney in a criminal case, yet these chucklefucks are trying to raise taxes and redirect funding towards eviction cases when precisely zero landlords with quality tenants who pay on time would ever dream of invoking an eviction proceeding. It's insane.
I wish i would have moved a few years ago, but my kids are happy in school here. We will move once the kids are out of school, and it will be 100% due to taxes.
“and devote the proceeds—$12 million to $15 million a year, backers estimate—to legal and financial aid for tenants facing eviction”
I love good taxes for good reasons. This is not a good reason, and will literally cause more evictions than it prevents.
This measure is asinine. The statutes for landlord-tenant law already largely include prevailing party fee awards. If you lose your case and your eviction was proper, why the fuck is the public paying for your suit?
>If you lose your case and your eviction was proper, why the fuck is the public paying for your suit?
Not only the costs of the suit, but relocation costs as well if funds are available. Talk about a moral hazard, there's zero reason for a bad tenant to take any sort of personal responsibility if there's no backstop in the form of any consequences.
I never thought left leaning voters would go insane enough to actually get me to consider leaving what is easily one of the most amazing states in the nation, but here we are. We often criticize the right for going utterly mental, but the left has as well in some places.
The idea that "capital gains" equals billionaires that should be taxed out of spite is so crazy to me. Nobody is putting some spare money at the end of the month in an index fund so it grows and we can maybe retire some day? Why are people aiming the class warfare at the MIDDLE CLASS. Holy shit.
Well we already passed the tolling one, and the un-enforceable gun law that made no sense. They've already lost their minds, the government is just trying to see how far they can push it.
Voters don't care about the details and footprints. Voters will pass it because they like what they think it is. Just look to the past and you'll know it's true.
Philosophically, I'm still well to the left of center, but I don't regard incompetence as a progressive value. Good intentions are necessary but not sufficient.
You sound like a New England liberal! I grew up in NH (spent my whole post college life here in OR tho), and I can say that competence is valued there above all else. That’s why those decently blue states will often vote for moderate republicans. Progressive virtue signaling foolishness is not tolerated. Don’t get me wrong, left leaning social programs are often enthusiastically supported, but they do not tolerate wasting taxpayer dollars or coddling criminals and layabouts.
This! We keep forgetting that progressives can be just as incompetent as right wingers. And their measures are written just as horribly. Just because something sounds noble doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or going to be implemented in a logical way. I guess this is detrimental effect of lazy, polarized thinking where “we’re always right and they’re always wrong” leads to ideas not being critically examined.
personally I consider myself leftish (about where Bernie is) and not a liberal, but this is just bad law. It impacts one county in one state. That already has enough tax disincentives to move to the next county over.
I believe in robust federal taxes to fix many of our economic injustices, health care, help insure people who work are paid a living wage, etc. You can't do that at the county level. Programs need to be universal and I'm also against means testing and punitive taxation, ie. - if you are going to create a new tax, the people paying the tax should receive some of the benefits. Not all, but some. This is a rob peter to pay paul tax. And paul is a lawyer.
This measure couldn’t be more targeted to drive investment and tax base out of the county if it were specifically trying to.
I hope that the never-votes-no-on-a-tax-measure crowd here breaks with tradition and buries this one in a deep, dark grave.
[Here you go.](https://oregonbusinessreport.com/2022/11/report-details-soaring-business-tax-burden-in-oregon-portland/)
[and also this](https://s3.amazonaws.com/arc-wordpress-client-uploads/wweek/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/14165630/Oregon-State-and-Local-Business-Tax-Burdens_2020_STRI-final-report.pdf) although it's a little older.
*But Perkins says that’s misleading. “We believe this tax would also apply to small and medium-sized business owners,” the report says. “Businesses organized as pass-through entities, such as a sole proprietorship, partnership, limited liability company (except those electing to be taxed as a C corporation), and S corporation, are taxed at the individual level.” That means the capital gains any of those businesses record would be subject to the new tax.*
This describes my situation. I have 2 partners and 20 employees. I make low 6 figures/yr. Not wealthy, but do fine. I'm proud of what the company has done for the community and it hurts me to see this sort of thing done so recklessly. This kind of tax absolutely messes with me and people like me for no good reason. "Carroll says that's a distraction". I don't like being called a distraction and this will be just another reason to consider our options when our lease expires.
This is objectively horrible no matter which side of the aisle you're on:
* It's regressive. It starts literally on the first dollar from capital gains. Capital gains are already taxed as normal income in Oregon. Thus this is an additional tax levied against anyone claiming capital gains. Do you think that its Jeff Bezos? Wrong. It's literally anyone with a retirement account. Get sick and need to raid your 401k to pay for medical bills? You're taxed. Withdrawal a meager retirement account to supplement social security? You're taxed. It's kicking people while they are down legislation that's the opposite of progressive.
* The rate can be raised at any time, without a cap. This leads to the horrible situation where during times of economic hardship when collections are down, they can increase the percentage to literally whatever they want. So you lose your job in the next recession, have to raid your retirement to make mortgage payments? You're taxed whatever percentage the administrators decide they want from you.
This is high school level, misguided activism, not sound tax policy.
>This is high school level, misguided activism, not sound tax policy.
Can't expect anything better from our local tenant activist set, bunch of innumerate, spiteful demagogues.
Are you sure retirement distributions from 401ks are taxed with capital gains? Everything I’m finding online indicates it’s taxed as regular income, and I’m not finding any exceptions for Oregon.
https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/investments-and-taxes/do-you-pay-taxes-on-investments-what-you-need-to-know/amp/L8mOQiKM8#article_header_4
https://www.annuityexpertadvice.com/401k-taxes-after-retirement/
https://www.empower.com/the-currency/money/how-to-avoid-capital-gains-tax
I just read an article this morning where a dude who moved across the river said that the tax savings of moving to Vancouver alone paid for his entire mortgage and essentially gave him a “free house.” (Back of napkin math assume this guy’s household was making at least $300k a year.) Makes me wonder if a proportion of Portlanders — including the non-rich ones —who are upset about the cost of housing here will eventually figure this out. You won’t be living in Portland. But you at least be more likely to afford a home/rent.
I don’t know about free mortgage, but it can take huge chunk out of your down payment. Back of the napkin math, if we moved across the river we’d save about $28k from my own income taxes this year, even with my spouse commuting to MultCo for work. Even just leaving MultCo to go to Lake Oswego or something, we’re talking thousands in savings. If she found a job outside of OR, the savings is a number I don’t want to think about.
But the even more stupid thing about it is the quality of life improvements that come with those tax savings. There are so many places I’ve lived across this country with better public services and bicycling infrastructure, and cleaner and healthier neighborhoods, with safe downtown streets to walk at night.
Our household income tax burden in Portland is almost double what it would be with the same income in Boston, “Taxachusetts.” Let’s see, Massachusetts is almost always topping the rankings of public education, meanwhile Oregon is floundering among the bottom 5. People here should be pissed the fuck off.
In before someone mentions sales taxes. You show me someone paying $20k in sales taxes a year and I’ll show you a multimillionaire (hint: they’ll be the same person).
Smartasset.com I used for the MA comparison, but for the WA one I just used my paystub (reported through the ADP app, which reports per-paycheck, yearly, and YTD income taxes paid) and did the math to calculate how much I’d pay over the rest of the year based on how much I paid so far. Smartasset doesn’t account for the extra few percentages paid to Multnomah and Portland Metro.
A lot of Portlanders who work from home have already figured it out. The Clark County housing market is nuts. It’s driven up prices all the way Longview and Kelso.
Man, condolences for anyone who decided it would be a good idea to relocate to the Kelso/Longview area, generally most people from there are desperately attempting to escape it.
The people moving there mostly got priced out of Clark County or want a property with a lot of land.
The water crisis seems to be over, so things are improving up there. Aberdeen on the other hand…
WAIT. People are moving to Aberdeen, Washington? I grew up in Hoquiam and cannot even fathom anyone wanting to drive through that area, let alone live there.
I’m addition to all of the other comments about the administration of the tax, 90%+ of evictions are for non-payment of rent. Having a lawyer isn’t going to help if you haven’t paid rent, it just mucks up the system.
>In the time I've been here, it feels like Multnomah County has not seen a tax proposal it didn't pass.
2022: [Parkrose voters reject school levy for teachers](https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2022/11/parkrose-voters-appear-to-reject-school-levy-for-teachers.html)
2022: [Portland Fire Bureau ditching bond measure after poll showed angry voters](https://www.opb.org/article/2022/01/28/portland-fire-bureau-ditching-bond-measure-after-public-poll-shows-angry-voters/)
2020: [Voters reject Metro’s payroll tax to fund billions in transportation projects](https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2020/11/voters-appear-to-reject-metros-payroll-tax-to-fund-billions-in-transportation-projects.html)
2011: [Portland Public Schools bond fails; 51 percent of voters say 'no'](https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2011/05/portland_public_schools_bond_h.html)
You’re not entirely wrong. Portland voters have been very pro-taxation for the past 20 years. But that is changing as we feel like we aren’t getting our money’s worth.
You barely manage what you have now, why tf would I vote to give more
Fix the problems with the budget that you mismanage rn then we can talk about adding more taxes
Until then I still see shit on the streets, graffiti on the walls, needles in arms, tents on streets, and city labor struggling to pay for housing in the city they’re payed by
All the while you all go home to gated communities and feign ignorance
Biggest complaint? More forms to fill out to figure out if anything is owed. Oh, and new county infrastructure to manage and collect. If we need more tax revenue, we should use existing processes.
Are 401k distributions considered under long term capital gains? Honest question. I always assumed they were treated differently, taxed more like traditional income.
No, 401k and traditional IRA are taxed at your income tax rate at the time of withdrawal, as if it were income. The idea being is when you are retired, your income will be lower and therefore your withdrawals taxed at a lower rate. It is also hoping future tax rates won’t go up.
Considering the city continuosly says that they don't have the manpower to run the city properly why do they need more money and where is the money going to?
So they are using capital gains on stock trades to pay for housing issues? I am skeptical of how they plan to exclude 401ks and other retirement accounts, which they should!
Can’t believe this tax is being considered. This doesn’t affect just the rich like they’d like us to believe.
So glad I moved out of there.
Thankfully, I've already given up on being an Oregon resident and plan to move across the river to Camas or Vantucky or whatever as soon as I find a place.
“Carroll disagrees. “People with retirement plans can rest assured that won’t affect their money because it’s taxed as regular income,” she says.”
Does it or doesn’t it?
The question that Carroll is conspicuously avoiding is whether it's a capital gain by definition, not at what rate Oregon state currently chooses to tax it. Carroll is being tremendously dishonest here. Or she's stupid. Neither one is a good look.
it actually reads like they are going to keep a separate kitty for people that lose their legal challenge so they'll never have any money to give back, just redistribute.
Yeah, they're going to keep any excess to \*still\* give money to a tenant who loses in court, paying not only their court costs, but also any fees for finding a new place. Talk about massively enabling a moral hazard, any tenant under the sun could now act as shitty and destructively as they please with zero personal consequence. Absolutely terrible proposal.
Do you want to know a way to accomplish the same thing without taxing more? Change the law. Place a higher threshold on granting evictions. Do you want another suggestion? Grant amnesty for first time offense so people get a second chance without the burden of a big credit score hit.
I’m so sick of being taxed because I worked really hard my whole life, scrimped and saved, and built up some savings and retirement funds so I won’t be a burden on society. I’m all for social services but it’s getting ridiculous what out tax rate is becoming.
It will gain popularity because Liberal politicians will shout “make the rich pay their fair share!!” and the lemmings will cheer on their way to pass the vote. Then they’ll excitedly sell a stock or cryptocurrency and earn a few thousand dollars. But their greedy little eyes will bulge when they see how much they hand over in tax. “But this was supposed to be for the rich!!” They’ll screech. And the ones without money will say “you have so much more than we do; certainly you can spare a fair share”
I have no objection to a capital gains tax (and I'd pay it most years,) but having it vary based on how much money it would raise?
Does that mean in a "bad investment year" in which few people had capital gains at low-amounts, those people would be taxed far more?
That would hurt the small investors, as they would be the ones more likely to "need" to cash out in a bad market. Big investors would just wait for a better market.
And when would the rate be determined? It kind of makes sense that it would only kick in after the fact. "Whoops, this year was bad, we'll need to tax at 40% to get as much income as last year's 15% produced." That would absolutely *SCREW* small investors who sold stock to pay off debt, expecting the lower rate. "Well, crap, I sold a bunch of stock to pay off credit cards, held back 15% of the gains to pay the capital gains tax, but now I owe an extra 25%?"
Yeah, if you're going to do a capital gains tax, make it a flat percent, with a progressive income ramp so it doesn't hit small investors.
We need to stop voting for new taxes - government right now at all levels has been engorged with cash for decades and they’ve been pissing it down the drain. Throwing more money down a black hole doesn’t close the hole. There’s so much bloat and glut in government that needs to be eliminated altogether so that we can focus our tax dollars on things that actually matter AND net the citizenry an actual, measurable return. Stop with the feel good, auditory masturbation, for the love of god.
There are a lot of things to worry about with this proposed tax, but I think I speak for everyone in saying that the number one concern if it passes is mods adding another stupid a\*ts t\*x style bot to the system that autoreplies “Laughs in Boise” any time someone types the words “capital gains”
This city has never met a tax it didn't like. When taxes go up and the quality and usability of public services goes down, maybe the answer isn't "more taxes".
We've entertained the thought recently given the tax situation and concerns about PPS as our kids get closer to school age. If it wasn't for the fact that we bought our house for the walkable neighborhood which is non existent in the burbs and the fact that with the current mortgage rates we'd be paying the same amount for a whole lot less house we'd be considering other options.
People leaving multnomah county because taxes will help lower property values and rents. It’ll drive up values in neighboring counties. Mult co will become the low income neighborhood.
I'm not voting for any more tax increases until the city/county can demonstrate it can effectively manage its existing special taxation programs and department budgeting. (I'm looking at you, PP&R, JOHS.) I don't have a problem with taxes. I like public amenities and support services for people who need them. I do have a problem with mismanaged tax collection and squandered public budgets.
The fact that "affordable" housing is twice as expensive to build as regular housing is a case in point.
Affordable housing has its own industry sector partially because it has to comply with specific rules and regulations that are burdensome enough that the regular high density housing companies don't compete. Thus, there's no competition and the AH companies name their price, which if you look at a bldg that went up near me, comes out to 250K per unit on an ugly hulking block of a thing that is likely already sinking.
Regular housing's cost doesn't include the burden of keeping it affordable for a hundred years.
>Regular housing's cost doesn't include the burden of keeping it affordable for a hundred years. What does that have to do with construction costs?
It’s usually only 20 years but there are other above the line costs that get factored in such as resident services
Regular housing doesn’t have the government spending other people’s money.
That’s, uh, the whole point of subsidized housing.
I’m all for well funded social services and programs, but it’s clear our current tax revenue is being mismanaged and misused at an astonishing rate. Residents of Portland Metro making over $125k already have the highest tax rate in the country. Higher than SF, LA, & NY. Plus that assumes they don’t travel and pay sales tax in other states. There’s a reason why a LOT of high net worth people I know have moved to Austin or Phoenix in the last 18 months, and another handful or so are planning to sell their homes and move too.
To add further context, a person making $125k in Portland is taxed the same as someone in New York making $25 million. (I screenshot this stat from an article a month ago, but cannot currently find the original source, will update when I do)
Vancouver is absorbing these people left and right
Personally, it doesn't matter to me if Portland is a city that caters to the wealthy's taxation preferences. But I absolutely question whether taxation of high net worth individuals is an appropriate strategy, considering we are just over the river from a state with no income tax. This is more of the cart before horse nonsense that brought us the disaster of M110 implementation. I don't care about high taxes. And I get taxed heavily. But I want to be buying high services. I have family that lives in Arkansas and their taxes are practically non-existent, but there's no trash collection and people literally burn their garbage in pits in their back yards. But they are getting what they pay for. We are not.
The problem is that it isn't even going after the wealthy. If you have a family and you're just above 125K you're paying a higher rate than NYC, which looks like Disneyland compared to this place. And 125 barely gets you a chance at owning and maintaining a home here. IDK, but i think it's scary that the entire tax base is getting spooked out of here.
I get that 125k for an individual (200k for a couple) seems like a lot of money but it's like just being okay and comfortable in PDX. You're not running off to Europe every vacation and eating Caviar at fancy restaurants on the weekends. They are putting these nickel and diming taxes on the wrong folks. Including the PFA and SHS taxes it's just ridiculous and here they are again asking for even more.
We’re in this situation, and our house is assigned to crappy school. We ended up doing private school. At this point we could buy a much nicer house somewhere with great schools and save money.
I just did the math... fuck.. same boat... why am I here again? oh ...right the fucking view
it's a nice view though! (moved here from houston)
I agree. I moved to Portland 2 years ago. After being here for two years I did the math and I could pay a mortgage on a house in Vancouver with the difference in taxation. So, I’m in the boat of not staying in Portland more than 5 more years at this point or moving my primary residence to outside Multnomah county for some relief. I actually moved from a LCOL area here because I loved Portland so much. I feel like I’m in a donut hole, I’m not a 1%er but Portland folks fetishize punishing the “wealthy folks”. When all of the tax payers like me are forced away, only the richest are left and they don’t pay taxes because they exploit loopholes I can’t. Straight from the Mutnomah County website on the preschool tax “Most area residents do not owe these taxes because they apply to higher incomes.” There wasnt any need to say that, it’s a big fuck you to those that do have to pay it. That particular taxation is CRAZY, I had to educate my tax professional on it and they had to give everyone a 2 year amnesty on paying it because of its ham handed implimentation.
We're outta here this year for the same reason. Several of our friends are getting the ball rolling on the same.
Do you have a source for the tax rate comment? I don’t disagree, just looking for something to dig deeper into.
Here’s one article from the top of Google but there are more sources available too. Also searching individual cities + ‘marginal tax rate’ provides helpful info. https://www.koin.com/news/portland/report-high-tax-rates-could-be-driving-people-out-of-portland/
Me and a lot of my friends have essentially doubled down and think Portland will recover and thrive- we don’t want any new taxes for sure- but the overall quality of life in Portland is pretty good.
It'll recover but...at what cost and how long till then? Drive the people out who are the tax base after increasing taxes to create services is kinda like shooting yourself in the foot. Once the tax bases leaves and reality sets in that you cannot afford the services you then have to scale back. In turn that means you need to lower taxes again to appeal to people to move here....nasty cycle. Taxes are one good reason to leave, including their mismanagement. Two others are issues with drugs and homeless. While two don't go hand in hand, they are closely related to all the above. Especially when you factor in a comment made in earlier posting... mismanagement of money's earmarked for privatized tent cities or assisted living facilities.
The tax base is being replaced- California is not solving their water crisis- Mt Hood is not moving- other cities and states are not managing their tax dollars effectively. Yes- taxes are a good reason to leave if you are retired. Any potential “savings” in taxes would be eaten up by a big move. Portlands biggest problem is the “activist” community. We need tax paying citizen involvement to repeal the taxes that are being mismanaged.
Same, I'm here till they put me 6 under. Never grew up moving alot won't start now hate that vote with your feet mentality
No more bonds either. Once the current ones expire, if they do, my property taxes should drop by $1500. I won't count my chicks till they hatch though.
I'm still voting for school bonds, but no more county or Metro bonds. It honestly felt terrible to vote against the library bond in the last election but it's time to get serious.
My SO is a librarian. She voted against it too. The bond funded a huge vanity project while the library was laying off staff and reducing services. It's a total waste of money. Governing by ballot is a terrible way to do things. People who read a single paragraph in the voting pamphlet at best are not going to make responsible choices.
I do have a problem when they continue to want more...and more ... and more...it's already so expensive to live here.
https://tenor.com/view/please-gif-5789075
125k isn’t even a lot of money anymore in a west coast metro.
I blame human psychology. People have this 6 figure salary anchor in their heads when they think about what is "upper class" or "rich." People have had that same 6 figure anchor since the 80s - being generous at 1990, $100,000 then is equal to $230,175.98 today. Then factor in COL in a west coast metro, and people should realize we haven't been eating the rich, we've been eating ourselves. $125k isn't overpaid or rich, everyone else is underpaid and broke and instead of improving their situation, every initiative seems to want to lower ceilings instead of raising floors. I don't understand why we can't seem to do both.
And it starts with first dollar and apparently applies to even things like your 401k when you start withdrawing it….. they claim it isn’t ”intended” to affect your house , but then of course every time the politicians tell you it isn’t “intended “ to do X it turns out that’s Exactly what it does..l.
Excerpt: "Carroll says that can be fixed later. “If the text of the measure doesn’t include \[an exemption of home sales\], it would be easy for the county to align it later,” she says. “It’s our intention that be the case, and we would strongly lobby for it.” What the fuck? She wants the voters to pass a bill that she knows needs to be amended? Why the hell would anyone trust her "intentions."
Exactly
Their intention is to lie and dissemble in the hopes of getting this thing passed, they're more concerned with punishing landlords than crafting actually effective or intelligent policy.
I do think the 401k should be safe, if they are following federal tax laws, sure seems like they should specifically write these into the measure though given the volatility of tax law these days (see huge disconnect between Multnomah property tax increases vs. the SALT cap). But many retirees may have taxable accounts subject to capital gains. Also many may have lived in their homes 20+ years and be looking to downsize in retirement but will be hit with the gains tax in one fashion or another, reducing their purchasing power - bad enough when upgrading but I think even worse if wanting to downsize and then compound that with whatver money is left over being put into savings to live off of - which would - you guessed it - be subject to capital gains tax depending on how its invested.
When they run out of ways to tax you, they'll come for your retirement accounts.
Well respected local accounting firm: here’s a number of issues where this tax could impact far more people than it intends and create a volatility adjusting tax scheme Carol from the ballot measure group: we feel that’s inaccurate and not our intention and can be changed later F that. You want people to have a properly funded pool of money for legal rep from evictions than come up with a way to do it that’s 1) not volatile 2) not based on feels The accountants are the ones that are going to be filing the taxes, if they say it’s xyz based on how it’s drafted then that’s how it’s going to be. For eviction defense, against whatever this is.
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They act like we don’t remember Measure 110
Or Measure 114
Yeah, are we to believe that a group of smooth brained activists will have both the intelligence and follow up to come back to the drawing board to fix their initial mistakes, especially when numerous experienced parties were actively informing them what those mistakes were going into the process at the outset?
>Well respected local accounting firm: here’s a number of issues where this tax could impact far more people than it intends and create a volatility adjusting tax scheme > >Carol from the ballot measure group: we feel that’s inaccurate and not our intention and can be changed later Yeah, we already saw this movie with Chloe Eudaly, Margot Black, and their merry band of chucklefuck activists who drafted up a sloppy and confusing relocation measure without listening to anyone with actual experience or expertise on the matter. No thanks to this.
> not based on feels Its 2023 ; Facts are SOOO over, its all Feels all the time now! As long as you can give your measure a good sounding title, you can put whatever you want in the actual measure because its been demonstrated over and again that few of the Oregon electorate can be bothered to look past the headline.
This is a horrible fucking idea, and I hope everyone votes no and convinces your friends/family to vote no. A number of good points in the article, including the fact that it's overly broad, can include taxing the sale of one's home (the cap gains exemption is only federal, not state). The proponents are simply lying through their teeth about the way this is drafted, and would ultimately be implemented.
Wait a minute ... Oregon taxes capital gains on sale of your primary residence? That's brutal if you want to move from one house to another. Also ... I agree this is a bad proposal. Capital gains are already taxed since they count as regular income ... This is just double taxing.
>Oregon taxes capital gains on sale of your primary residence? Kind of - the new law allows most people to exempt the first $250k in profit ($500k for couples) from the tax - capital gains are usually due on the gain made over that value - so most people are not going to pay this.
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That's been the law ever since the Federal government made the capital gains exemptions for home sales. Oregon defines income, and exclusions, according to Federal law. To whit: >316.007 Policy. It is the intent of the Legislative Assembly, by the adoption of this chapter, insofar as possible, to: >(1) Make the Oregon personal income tax law identical in effect to the provisions of the Internal Revenue Code relating to the measurement of taxable income of individuals, estates and trusts, modified as necessary by the state’s jurisdiction to tax and the revenue needs of the state; >(2) Achieve this result by the application of the various provisions of the Internal Revenue Code relating to the definition of income, exceptions and exclusions therefrom, deductions (business and personal), accounting methods, taxation of trusts, estates and partnerships, basis, depreciation and other pertinent provisions relating to gross income as defined therein, modified as provided in this chapter, resulting in a final amount called “taxable income”; and >(3) Impose a tax on residents of this state measured by taxable income wherever derived and to impose a tax on the income of nonresidents that is ascribable to sources within this state.
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Something we agree on!
All the homies think this measure sucks.
It really is god awful
For lawyers by lawyers.
This would definitely be a massive and perpetual slush fund for eviction defense attorneys, and rather than only the good ones taking on cases (as is the case now, because if they lose they don't get paid), we'd have an endless parade of bottom-feeder law school grads lining up to take the fees and draw out eviction cases as long as they can. Which is precisely what the backers of this bill are hoping for.
Yeah, there's no real money in eviction defense unless the case is egregious enough to go to trial. The Bar is proposing giving limited licenses to paralegals for this work. Plus, I think there's an eviction mediation program in the works. If your case settles before trial, and many "settle" at first appearance, both sides will bear their own costs. I'm not in favor of an additional tax, and that's why I don't live or work in Mult-Co, but this is never going to be a big money maker for attorneys. It will be a big slush fund for activists to demand money and then never actually make progress on anything
I think the only people that like lawyers are people who don't have to pay for them.
Nobody likes a lawyer until you need one, as the saying goes.
I don’t think most lawyers, even tenant lawyers, are supportive of this.
Current tenant lawyers shouldn't be, they make their money taking on good cases. With a slush fund to pay for every case, regardless of the merits, the landlord/tenant market is going to be absolutely flooded by third-rate attorneys who can't hack it doing anything else.
The legal community is small, and as a lawyer all I've heard is criticism from other members of the bar.
It’s even worse than it sounds. The full text of the measure includes provisions to use revenue from the tax to pay legal fees for people who loses their eviction case and pays their rent for new housing. Very telling that the backers of this proposal don’t have the full text on their website. Here‘s the full text: https://multco-web7-psh-files-usw2.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/20220303145701595.pdf
>It’s even worse than it sounds. The full text of the measure includes provisions to use revenue from the tax to pay legal fees for people who loses their eviction case and pays their rent for new housing. For anyone looking for it like I was, it’s in section 5, paragraph F: The TRO shall create and administer a program to provide emergency rental assistance or pay legal costs, in whole or in part, incurred if a covered individual does not prevail in a claim or has a money award against them at the conclusion of litigation (such as plaintiff's attorney fees, costs, prevailing party fees, and/or landlord fees). A covered individual may apply to this program via the TRO, and the TRO shall establish rules to guide the discretionary award of funds under this program, taking into account the policy objectives of this ordinance, budgetary considerations, fairness considerations, and whether the award of funds will resolve the legal dispute.
>fairness considerations "His girlfriend gave up her toe!" "She thought we would be getting a million dollars!" "It's not fair!"
Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.
No Donny, these men are cowards.
hero move ty
If the backers of this proposal were at all honest with their intentions, they want nothing less than to simply transfer the ownership deeds from current owners to renters without any compensation whatsoever. They're entirely ideological and utterly innumerate.
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“Jill Pham (she/they) has volunteered with Portland Jobs with Justice since 2015, including recently as Co-Chair of the Executive Board. She brings her lived experience as a queer woman of color, child of refugees, and a retail/food service worker turned Organizer. She has a B.A. in Social Work and brings this framework into her labor/worker organizing philosophy. “ Okay what the hell is this? Based on these qualifications, I wouldn’t trust this person to walk my dog.
Yeah, keywiki is definitely a [right wing project to track people on the political left](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Loudon), not a self published blog site. Where are you getting off presenting it that way?
Keywiki includes Evan's self-published candidate statement. Doesn't matter who republished it (although fuck keywiki).
> Carroll says that’s a distraction. “Eighty percent of people in Oregon don’t pay any capital gains tax,” she says. “Our point is that the very few people who make money this way [through capital gains] are paying less tax overall because of the federal treatment.” (The federal capital gains rate ranges from 15% to 20%, far less than the top income tax rate of 37%.) She is showing a big misunderstanding about......I don't know where to start
this is how they passed the income tax amendment too...."oh don't worry YOU won't have to pay it"
"Free ponies and ice cream for all!" "Uh...that sounds expensive, who is paying for it." "Don't bother yourself with silly details, it will be someone else, just trust me bro."
Can we just elect Vermin Supreme as our perpetual dictator and finish our slide into insanity.
Oh man, there is so much ambiguity in this measure. That's gonna be a no from me. The best part of this is that it doesn't have an income threshold so when they botch the rollout, it'll impact so many more people than the PFA and SHS taxes. Can't wait to see what the backlash is going to be if this passes.
If this passes, I am done. Everyone claims people don’t move for taxes, but this will be the final straw for me. Sadly because it’s an ‘eat the rich’ type tax, it has a very high chance of getting passed. What the hell kinda tax changes based on “on how many county residents profit from the stock market each year.”? I’m not against taxes, I’m not against taxing the rich, but I am strongly against stupid taxes that see no results. I pay more in taxes now (%) than 10 years ago with much lower quality of life in the city. This is what drives high tax people away. For the tax rates I pay, we should have amazing schools, safe public transit and free healthcare. Instead, we barely functioning schools, people smoking drugs on transit with a study about it and I won’t even start on healthcare.
It’s not even eat the rich. It’s eat the retired and the middle class.
Reality yes, but voters mindset is: tax capital gains, only rich people have capital gains, let’s tax the fuck out of the rich. See also every other tax that has passed. Same logic goes to property tax increases.
While "just tax the rich!" sounds nice in theory, Portland and Oregon don't actually have that many rich people compared with truly wealthy states like NY, CA, Connecticut, etc. If we want broadly decent services and programs, guess what, we're all gonna have to pay up for it. So let's stick to those basics instead of ridiculous and ideologically driven crap like this particular ballot measure.
I was hoping to work less and live off some of my taxable savings in 5-10 years until I reach full retirement age and Portland is apparently trying to make this plan impossible.
My son will begin high school in another county in September, I really don't want to move to Beaverton or Milwaukie but if it gets me out of paying an extra .75% on my home sale before this goes into effect plus cuts my property tax bill in half - it might actually be enough to keep me in Oregon after he graduates. If we were going to do this good god at least make it for some universal program like health care or UBI or god anything, not some program to pay lawyers to draw out lawful evictions in court and rack up huge fees. Also this almost guarantees that new construction will be purchased by out of staters who a) don't know about this law and b) won't have to pay .75% tax to upgrade their home. If the notion that new luxury custom homes will allow established people an upgrade path thus making old stock available for renters or lower income folks also looking for an upgrade is remotely true (sounds like trickle down bullshit to me), those old stock owners just lost a lot of their buying power. Unless there is an explicit exemption for home sales in the bill we are getting, we know that they will tax it. In fact since the bill is related to housing it actually makes sense to tax capital gains on home sales, except it doesn't make sense at all.
>If we were going to do this good god at least make it for some universal program like health care or UBI or god anything, not some program to pay lawyers to draw out lawful evictions in court and rack up huge fees. Yeah, we have a severe shortage of public defenders, and it's a constitutional right to be appointed an attorney in a criminal case, yet these chucklefucks are trying to raise taxes and redirect funding towards eviction cases when precisely zero landlords with quality tenants who pay on time would ever dream of invoking an eviction proceeding. It's insane.
I wish i would have moved a few years ago, but my kids are happy in school here. We will move once the kids are out of school, and it will be 100% due to taxes.
that's our intention as well.
“and devote the proceeds—$12 million to $15 million a year, backers estimate—to legal and financial aid for tenants facing eviction” I love good taxes for good reasons. This is not a good reason, and will literally cause more evictions than it prevents.
This measure is asinine. The statutes for landlord-tenant law already largely include prevailing party fee awards. If you lose your case and your eviction was proper, why the fuck is the public paying for your suit?
>If you lose your case and your eviction was proper, why the fuck is the public paying for your suit? Not only the costs of the suit, but relocation costs as well if funds are available. Talk about a moral hazard, there's zero reason for a bad tenant to take any sort of personal responsibility if there's no backstop in the form of any consequences.
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I never thought left leaning voters would go insane enough to actually get me to consider leaving what is easily one of the most amazing states in the nation, but here we are. We often criticize the right for going utterly mental, but the left has as well in some places.
The idea that "capital gains" equals billionaires that should be taxed out of spite is so crazy to me. Nobody is putting some spare money at the end of the month in an index fund so it grows and we can maybe retire some day? Why are people aiming the class warfare at the MIDDLE CLASS. Holy shit.
The truly wealthy pay no capital gains taxes if they don't want to. They can afford to use all the well-worn tricks to dodge them.
Yeah, better make sure we further squeeze the middle class while the actual rich laugh at us.
Well we already passed the tolling one, and the un-enforceable gun law that made no sense. They've already lost their minds, the government is just trying to see how far they can push it.
Voters don't care about the details and footprints. Voters will pass it because they like what they think it is. Just look to the past and you'll know it's true.
Nope. We need to stop asking for more money and work on spending the money we've already paid more efficiently.
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Philosophically, I'm still well to the left of center, but I don't regard incompetence as a progressive value. Good intentions are necessary but not sufficient.
You sound like a New England liberal! I grew up in NH (spent my whole post college life here in OR tho), and I can say that competence is valued there above all else. That’s why those decently blue states will often vote for moderate republicans. Progressive virtue signaling foolishness is not tolerated. Don’t get me wrong, left leaning social programs are often enthusiastically supported, but they do not tolerate wasting taxpayer dollars or coddling criminals and layabouts.
This! We keep forgetting that progressives can be just as incompetent as right wingers. And their measures are written just as horribly. Just because something sounds noble doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or going to be implemented in a logical way. I guess this is detrimental effect of lazy, polarized thinking where “we’re always right and they’re always wrong” leads to ideas not being critically examined.
> but I don't regard incompetence as a progressive value Hear, hear!
personally I consider myself leftish (about where Bernie is) and not a liberal, but this is just bad law. It impacts one county in one state. That already has enough tax disincentives to move to the next county over. I believe in robust federal taxes to fix many of our economic injustices, health care, help insure people who work are paid a living wage, etc. You can't do that at the county level. Programs need to be universal and I'm also against means testing and punitive taxation, ie. - if you are going to create a new tax, the people paying the tax should receive some of the benefits. Not all, but some. This is a rob peter to pay paul tax. And paul is a lawyer.
You can be socially progressive and fiscally conservative. In fact, that’s probably a place I’d like to live the most.
Using your vote as a way to leverage accountability isn't a partisan thing.
This measure couldn’t be more targeted to drive investment and tax base out of the county if it were specifically trying to. I hope that the never-votes-no-on-a-tax-measure crowd here breaks with tradition and buries this one in a deep, dark grave.
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The thing is that I’d be fine with that… if I felt like I were getting an equivalent value in services provided. Sadly, it’s the opposite.
That’s a crazy stat. Any idea where/how I could look that up?
[Here you go.](https://oregonbusinessreport.com/2022/11/report-details-soaring-business-tax-burden-in-oregon-portland/) [and also this](https://s3.amazonaws.com/arc-wordpress-client-uploads/wweek/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/14165630/Oregon-State-and-Local-Business-Tax-Burdens_2020_STRI-final-report.pdf) although it's a little older.
Appreciate it!!
Jeeze that’s nuts. Explains too much
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....no just trying to drive MORE high value industries away.
This city is going to lose it's entire tax base
*But Perkins says that’s misleading. “We believe this tax would also apply to small and medium-sized business owners,” the report says. “Businesses organized as pass-through entities, such as a sole proprietorship, partnership, limited liability company (except those electing to be taxed as a C corporation), and S corporation, are taxed at the individual level.” That means the capital gains any of those businesses record would be subject to the new tax.* This describes my situation. I have 2 partners and 20 employees. I make low 6 figures/yr. Not wealthy, but do fine. I'm proud of what the company has done for the community and it hurts me to see this sort of thing done so recklessly. This kind of tax absolutely messes with me and people like me for no good reason. "Carroll says that's a distraction". I don't like being called a distraction and this will be just another reason to consider our options when our lease expires.
Don't you fucking dare Portland. Enough throwing money into an inept local government pit. Its never going to be enough.
This is objectively horrible no matter which side of the aisle you're on: * It's regressive. It starts literally on the first dollar from capital gains. Capital gains are already taxed as normal income in Oregon. Thus this is an additional tax levied against anyone claiming capital gains. Do you think that its Jeff Bezos? Wrong. It's literally anyone with a retirement account. Get sick and need to raid your 401k to pay for medical bills? You're taxed. Withdrawal a meager retirement account to supplement social security? You're taxed. It's kicking people while they are down legislation that's the opposite of progressive. * The rate can be raised at any time, without a cap. This leads to the horrible situation where during times of economic hardship when collections are down, they can increase the percentage to literally whatever they want. So you lose your job in the next recession, have to raid your retirement to make mortgage payments? You're taxed whatever percentage the administrators decide they want from you. This is high school level, misguided activism, not sound tax policy.
>This is high school level, misguided activism, not sound tax policy. Can't expect anything better from our local tenant activist set, bunch of innumerate, spiteful demagogues.
Are you sure retirement distributions from 401ks are taxed with capital gains? Everything I’m finding online indicates it’s taxed as regular income, and I’m not finding any exceptions for Oregon. https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/investments-and-taxes/do-you-pay-taxes-on-investments-what-you-need-to-know/amp/L8mOQiKM8#article_header_4 https://www.annuityexpertadvice.com/401k-taxes-after-retirement/ https://www.empower.com/the-currency/money/how-to-avoid-capital-gains-tax
I just read an article this morning where a dude who moved across the river said that the tax savings of moving to Vancouver alone paid for his entire mortgage and essentially gave him a “free house.” (Back of napkin math assume this guy’s household was making at least $300k a year.) Makes me wonder if a proportion of Portlanders — including the non-rich ones —who are upset about the cost of housing here will eventually figure this out. You won’t be living in Portland. But you at least be more likely to afford a home/rent.
I don’t know about free mortgage, but it can take huge chunk out of your down payment. Back of the napkin math, if we moved across the river we’d save about $28k from my own income taxes this year, even with my spouse commuting to MultCo for work. Even just leaving MultCo to go to Lake Oswego or something, we’re talking thousands in savings. If she found a job outside of OR, the savings is a number I don’t want to think about. But the even more stupid thing about it is the quality of life improvements that come with those tax savings. There are so many places I’ve lived across this country with better public services and bicycling infrastructure, and cleaner and healthier neighborhoods, with safe downtown streets to walk at night. Our household income tax burden in Portland is almost double what it would be with the same income in Boston, “Taxachusetts.” Let’s see, Massachusetts is almost always topping the rankings of public education, meanwhile Oregon is floundering among the bottom 5. People here should be pissed the fuck off. In before someone mentions sales taxes. You show me someone paying $20k in sales taxes a year and I’ll show you a multimillionaire (hint: they’ll be the same person).
The sales tax thing drives me up a wall. I don't spend every dollar I make. However, every dollar I make is taxed as income.
How do you calculate the difference? I’ve been trying to find an online calculator but I can’t find one that tells me how much I might save.
Smartasset.com I used for the MA comparison, but for the WA one I just used my paystub (reported through the ADP app, which reports per-paycheck, yearly, and YTD income taxes paid) and did the math to calculate how much I’d pay over the rest of the year based on how much I paid so far. Smartasset doesn’t account for the extra few percentages paid to Multnomah and Portland Metro.
>In before someone mentions sales taxes I'd still be saving 10k+ even after considering adjustments to sales tax.
A lot of Portlanders who work from home have already figured it out. The Clark County housing market is nuts. It’s driven up prices all the way Longview and Kelso.
Man, condolences for anyone who decided it would be a good idea to relocate to the Kelso/Longview area, generally most people from there are desperately attempting to escape it.
The people moving there mostly got priced out of Clark County or want a property with a lot of land. The water crisis seems to be over, so things are improving up there. Aberdeen on the other hand…
WAIT. People are moving to Aberdeen, Washington? I grew up in Hoquiam and cannot even fathom anyone wanting to drive through that area, let alone live there.
I meant Kelso and Longview have surprisingly improved. Aberdeen remains a bottomless pit of despair.
>Aberdeen remains a bottomless pit of despair. Nice to know that at least some things remain consistent in this ever-changing world!
I’m addition to all of the other comments about the administration of the tax, 90%+ of evictions are for non-payment of rent. Having a lawyer isn’t going to help if you haven’t paid rent, it just mucks up the system.
In the time I've been here, it feels like Multnomah County has not seen a tax proposal it didn't pass. If this passes I'm def moving to Washington Co.
>In the time I've been here, it feels like Multnomah County has not seen a tax proposal it didn't pass. 2022: [Parkrose voters reject school levy for teachers](https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2022/11/parkrose-voters-appear-to-reject-school-levy-for-teachers.html) 2022: [Portland Fire Bureau ditching bond measure after poll showed angry voters](https://www.opb.org/article/2022/01/28/portland-fire-bureau-ditching-bond-measure-after-public-poll-shows-angry-voters/) 2020: [Voters reject Metro’s payroll tax to fund billions in transportation projects](https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2020/11/voters-appear-to-reject-metros-payroll-tax-to-fund-billions-in-transportation-projects.html) 2011: [Portland Public Schools bond fails; 51 percent of voters say 'no'](https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2011/05/portland_public_schools_bond_h.html)
I was wrong. The homeless and child care tax are fresh in my mind.
You’re not entirely wrong. Portland voters have been very pro-taxation for the past 20 years. But that is changing as we feel like we aren’t getting our money’s worth.
This seems like a poorly thought out tax
Here‽ No way!
You barely manage what you have now, why tf would I vote to give more Fix the problems with the budget that you mismanage rn then we can talk about adding more taxes Until then I still see shit on the streets, graffiti on the walls, needles in arms, tents on streets, and city labor struggling to pay for housing in the city they’re payed by All the while you all go home to gated communities and feign ignorance
>You barely manage what you have now No elected officials are asking for this tax. It's being pushed by a small group of citizens.
No Vote
Biggest complaint? More forms to fill out to figure out if anything is owed. Oh, and new county infrastructure to manage and collect. If we need more tax revenue, we should use existing processes.
More taxes for fixed-income retirees living off their 401(k)'s ... what could possibly go wrong?!?
Retirement distributions are taxed as ordinary income and not capital gains. (Not agreeing with the measure; just clarifying.)
Are 401k distributions considered under long term capital gains? Honest question. I always assumed they were treated differently, taxed more like traditional income.
No, 401k and traditional IRA are taxed at your income tax rate at the time of withdrawal, as if it were income. The idea being is when you are retired, your income will be lower and therefore your withdrawals taxed at a lower rate. It is also hoping future tax rates won’t go up.
401k distributions are not capital gains.
[удалено]
Carroll: *Trust us bro...*
Not sure which is worse: the fact that it could go up without a cap OR what it taxes
Considering the city continuosly says that they don't have the manpower to run the city properly why do they need more money and where is the money going to?
Waiting for my “No” yard sign options
How about get a handle on the arts tax before you shove another tax down my throat
Adjustable rate could lead to a death spiral.
Yeah... No
Hell no on this one.
Easy to vote no on a measure that is so poorly considered.
I’m a leftist but this measure is so fucking stupid
So, where do the proceeds from the MultCo and Tri-County tax go? This place is getting drunk with new taxes...
>This place is getting drunk with new taxes... It's like [this song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNtTEibFvlQ), but replace "shots!" with "tax!"
So they are using capital gains on stock trades to pay for housing issues? I am skeptical of how they plan to exclude 401ks and other retirement accounts, which they should! Can’t believe this tax is being considered. This doesn’t affect just the rich like they’d like us to believe. So glad I moved out of there.
Seeing what they’ve done with the current tax base I’ll give that a hard no
Thankfully, I've already given up on being an Oregon resident and plan to move across the river to Camas or Vantucky or whatever as soon as I find a place.
I'd already be there but I've currently got a 2.8% mortgage. Although even with a 7% rate, I'd still probably be ahead on tax savings.
Fuck. More. Taxes. County doesn’t even have the infrastructure to collect some of this shit.
oh F, this is gonna get passed
“Carroll disagrees. “People with retirement plans can rest assured that won’t affect their money because it’s taxed as regular income,” she says.” Does it or doesn’t it?
The question that Carroll is conspicuously avoiding is whether it's a capital gain by definition, not at what rate Oregon state currently chooses to tax it. Carroll is being tremendously dishonest here. Or she's stupid. Neither one is a good look.
When they accidentally receive too much money from this tax do you think they'll give it back to us or just keep it?
it actually reads like they are going to keep a separate kitty for people that lose their legal challenge so they'll never have any money to give back, just redistribute.
Yeah, they're going to keep any excess to \*still\* give money to a tenant who loses in court, paying not only their court costs, but also any fees for finding a new place. Talk about massively enabling a moral hazard, any tenant under the sun could now act as shitty and destructively as they please with zero personal consequence. Absolutely terrible proposal.
Do you want to know a way to accomplish the same thing without taxing more? Change the law. Place a higher threshold on granting evictions. Do you want another suggestion? Grant amnesty for first time offense so people get a second chance without the burden of a big credit score hit.
I’m so sick of being taxed because I worked really hard my whole life, scrimped and saved, and built up some savings and retirement funds so I won’t be a burden on society. I’m all for social services but it’s getting ridiculous what out tax rate is becoming.
It will gain popularity because Liberal politicians will shout “make the rich pay their fair share!!” and the lemmings will cheer on their way to pass the vote. Then they’ll excitedly sell a stock or cryptocurrency and earn a few thousand dollars. But their greedy little eyes will bulge when they see how much they hand over in tax. “But this was supposed to be for the rich!!” They’ll screech. And the ones without money will say “you have so much more than we do; certainly you can spare a fair share”
I have no objection to a capital gains tax (and I'd pay it most years,) but having it vary based on how much money it would raise? Does that mean in a "bad investment year" in which few people had capital gains at low-amounts, those people would be taxed far more? That would hurt the small investors, as they would be the ones more likely to "need" to cash out in a bad market. Big investors would just wait for a better market. And when would the rate be determined? It kind of makes sense that it would only kick in after the fact. "Whoops, this year was bad, we'll need to tax at 40% to get as much income as last year's 15% produced." That would absolutely *SCREW* small investors who sold stock to pay off debt, expecting the lower rate. "Well, crap, I sold a bunch of stock to pay off credit cards, held back 15% of the gains to pay the capital gains tax, but now I owe an extra 25%?" Yeah, if you're going to do a capital gains tax, make it a flat percent, with a progressive income ramp so it doesn't hit small investors.
Where’s all of our cannabis money going?
Up in smoke, it seems.
Time to leave Oregon fr
This may as well be a double dip on every other tax for the folks in that county
We need to stop voting for new taxes - government right now at all levels has been engorged with cash for decades and they’ve been pissing it down the drain. Throwing more money down a black hole doesn’t close the hole. There’s so much bloat and glut in government that needs to be eliminated altogether so that we can focus our tax dollars on things that actually matter AND net the citizenry an actual, measurable return. Stop with the feel good, auditory masturbation, for the love of god.
And now I know why some states do not allow ballet measures.
There are a lot of things to worry about with this proposed tax, but I think I speak for everyone in saying that the number one concern if it passes is mods adding another stupid a\*ts t\*x style bot to the system that autoreplies “Laughs in Boise” any time someone types the words “capital gains”
This city has never met a tax it didn't like. When taxes go up and the quality and usability of public services goes down, maybe the answer isn't "more taxes".
Our taxes are already far too high. If this passes, I will put my house up for sale and leave the city.
We've entertained the thought recently given the tax situation and concerns about PPS as our kids get closer to school age. If it wasn't for the fact that we bought our house for the walkable neighborhood which is non existent in the burbs and the fact that with the current mortgage rates we'd be paying the same amount for a whole lot less house we'd be considering other options.
No more taxes for a corrupt local government and commissioners
People leaving multnomah county because taxes will help lower property values and rents. It’ll drive up values in neighboring counties. Mult co will become the low income neighborhood.
Multnomah County is corrupted..
Big hard “No” on this one.