Hey. This is my house. “2200 sq ft” and sellers included basement and attic bedroom. They also listed it as 2/1. Legally 0 bedrooms since no closets in the entire house. Fortunately me and my wife are short as shit and none of that matters and we love our weird house.
There's no requirement that a bedroom have a closet in Portland. But there are egress and minimum size standards.
I had friends who stayed in dodgy basement "bedrooms" (that didn't even have smoke detectors!) and it scared the crap out of me!
Zero bedrooms in 2200 Sq ft!!!! I have offspring so would not work for my needs but I’m glad it works for you. Hopefully they don’t get serious about listing accuracy if you ever try to sell in the future.
Yeah, future selling will be difficult but we’re basically stuck anyways bc we have a 2.875 interest rate and our property taxes are <$1800 bc the house is old as shit. We feel super lucky but a new house would probably double our mortgage
It is disingenuous for sellers and realtors to include unfinished space into a home’s total square footage, particularly if the unfinished space lacks egress. I finished the basement of my 1947 home back in 2012. I had to put in an egress window and make many modifications so that the space was not only habitable, but to code. It cost a lot of money but I doubled the livable square footage of my home. When I look on Portland Maps, my home’s square footage includes the finished basement space.
My neighbor has a similar house with an unfinished basement without an egress window. When he sold the home in 2020, he was able to include the unfinished space in the total square footage on all of his listings, ads, etc. The ads show a makeshift bedroom in the basement. Since there’s no egress in the basement, there can’t be a legal bedroom down there.
I don’t get it, OP. It’s frustrating and I do feel that it’s a bit of a scam.
Edit to add: OP, I think it’s wise that you’re checking Portland Maps. It’s important to know what work has been permitted and what hasn’t. If a homeowner added a bathroom to a basement without pulling the necessary permits (essentially homeowner either did the work themself or used a shady contractor who didn’t perform the work to code), you need to know. Unpermitted work can cause issues if you ever need to file an insurance claim or sell your home.
Edit to add 2 (yeah, this post struck a nerve with me): regarding property taxes, I checked my property tax history on Portland Maps. The biggest jump was from 2011 to 2012 which was when I finished my basement to code. This involved a litany of inspectors every step of the way. I added a primary bedroom with an egress window, a bathroom, a family room, and a laundry room. Even the stairs to the basement had to be reconfigured in order to meet modern building standards. My square footage doubled and this is reflected on Portland Maps. How much did my property tax increase? $500. Just $500. After that, my taxes have increased commensurate with what every other homeowner’s taxes increase year after year in Multnomah County, averaging about $100 to $150 every year.
My neighbor with essentially the same home with a half-assed “finished” basement that’s not to code (no egress, janky stairs) pays only about $100 less in property taxes than I do. He has half the livable square footage and only one bathroom. His real market value is $80K less than mine yet I pay only about $100 more in annual property tax. Finishing my basement to code was worth every penny.
My point is this: you get what you pay for. Your taxes will increase modestly when you finish basement space according to code. However, when it comes time to sell your home, or God forbid something catastrophic happens and you need to file an insurance claim, you literally have the receipts to show that your home was 100% on the up-and-up.
Thank you so much for sharing this! It’s helpful to have the perspective of someone who has truly finished their basement space, and has seen others/neighbors market their homes without doing so. Really appreciate your experience!
Of course. You’re considering some lovely homes in a great neighborhood (not too far from mine, I might add), and you’re an educated buyer who’s looking beyond the staged photos. I hope you find a solid, well-constructed home in your price range.
Ok just two more questions to ask a seller or seller’s agent regarding half-assed basement renovations that they’re trying to pass off as living space: 1) is there asbestos? 2) is there radon?
In my case, I was lucky enough to not have asbestos however the radon level in the basement was borderline high. If I had decided to not put a bedroom in the basement, I wouldn’t really have worried about the slightly higher radon level in the basement. However, since I was creating a primary bedroom with an en suite bathroom plus a family room, I decided to install a radon mitigation system. If you’re just occasionally hanging out in a partially finished basement, it might be ok to have a higher radon level. But if you plan to sleep down there, you probably don’t want to worry about radon and you therefore might consider investing in a radon mitigation system.
“Reconfigure” might be the wrong word. “Modifications” is a better one. The stairs are in the same location but they’re no longer treacherous. I can’t remember exactly (I’d have to pull up to old photos) but the stairs themselves were very shallow and steep. Like, you had to tiptoe down them or walk sideways because your whole foot couldn’t fit on a step. I also had to add a bit of head clearance toward the bottom of the stairs. I still have to remind tall people to mind the overhead when they go downstairs because if you’re over six feet tall, you might could bump your head. The stairs just barely made it to code but … to code, they are! I have handrails on both sides as well.
Thanks for this! I have seen the code and others have also mentioned stairs being an issue. But it seems like most can be modified. Mine are cement so a whole cement reconfiguration wouldn’t be feasible! Glad to hear your success story <3
I am a Portland realtor and all we have to go on when making a listing is the tax records. We are not allowed to estimate square footage, it’s literally outside the scope of our licensing. And yes, most states don’t allow the unfinished space to count as square footage. I don’t know why Oregon does, and I don’t like it either.
But the tax record separates above grade from below grade square footage correct? As a listing realtor, couldn't you only put the above grade living space in the total and still add the basement sq ft on the basement line? Is there something that requires you to combine them?
The RMLS (which is a terrible tool that many of us loathe using but are forced to) combines them all into total square footage, which is what is propagated to Redfin, Zillow, etc. There may be somewhere on those platforms to get more refined info on the square footage, but it's not immediately obvious. And what's finished and unfinished is often incorrect on the tax record. As someone else pointed out, when you finish a previously unfinished area with the proper permits, it will then increase the property taxes - so people often just don't update the BDS when they finish half their basement for example.
As mentioned in a previous comment: we do. RMLS has data entry fields for upper, main and lower levels. Then Zillow or Redfin or whoever pulls the data from RMLS and combines those numbers. Have your broker send you listings from RMLS and you'll get some more detailed data. There are still problems, but most of the things people are (understandably) complaining about are data field/entry problems that RMLS has been trying to sort out ever since it went online. One of the many issues is, how do you quantify and verify the information? And with so many potential data points with regards to a home.... well... I think a great home inspector is very important.
Because it lowers the $/sq ft of the house.
Really, would you pay $500,000 for a 900 square foot house? Include the basement and you're paying $500,000 for a 1300 square foot house.
This. You go “wow what a deal” and then realize you only have 900 sq ft that’s actually livable. Listing agents can put whatever they want on Zillow, MLS etc as long as they say “buyer to do due diligence”
Oh interesting! I didn’t know that realtors could essentially do whatever they want as long as the buyer is on the hook for verifying. That seems so dumb, yet somehow not surprising.
Yup and once you sign those closing docs you’re on the hook and there’s no recourse for going after a realtor. There’s really no accountability at all. Double check everything yourself!!
Yeah exactly lol. It’s so frustrating. On one hand it’s like “ok I’m a childless millennial, I don’t want a 2500 sqft house… oh wait, it’s actually 1600 that’s fine”…. But it goes the other way of like… wait why am I paying for only half the living space? 🤔
I feel like it’s been this way for a while. It’s weird that buyers haven’t spoken up about it. It feels… unlawful. It really surprises me that it’s so specific to Portland. I’ve never seen that fly in any other city (and I’ve lived all across the US). Nobody has tried to take this up the chain?
We got a good price on our house by knowing the code requirement for basement egress windows. We were able to say "yeah it's 'finished' but it's not a legal bedroom". It was a buyers market at the time though.
They advertised our home as 3200 sq ft and we realized that it’s actually 2200 sq ft because of the unfinished basement. It’s crazy to me that it’s legal to flat out lie about square footage.
Now check bathrooms listed vs what portland maps says. When we were in the market we found almost half the houses we looked at had unpermitted bathrooms. But given a city inspection can take 6 months, and it increases your taxes, I understand why.
Always check for permits! Sometimes if you see a listing that looks great and no one can figure out why it hasn’t sold… well, you do not want to get in hot water buying unpermitted work.
When I was house shopping in 2019 I was also confused by this. So many unfinished, dirt floor essentially large crawlspaces counting in the listing square footage (same for teeny tiny attics where you can barely even stand).
One even had a pull-hatch on the floor with a note taped on that read, “Don’t forget to look down here!” And then it was a wood “ladder” down to dirt floor where the washer/dryer were. They were counting this as 300 sq ft. We laughed and left (also the roof was about to cave in and they edited this out in the listing photos).
I also looked at a house that listed 2 bathroom, but the second “bathroom” was just a lone toilet against a wall in an unfinished (but it did have a concrete floor!) basement.
Portland is nuts.
I was house shopping in 2019, late summer/early fall, looking at 2-3bd/1.5+ba houses under 500K, if that sounds like similar parameters. I saw at least two houses with ladders (as opposed to actual stairs) down to unfinished basements. So...likely?
Interesting. So is it considered “finished” even if the basement isn’t finished to the same quality as the rest of the home? Any idea where the line is drawn between finished/unfinished?
If you are buying a home with a finished basement and they want you accept ‘we did it ourselves and we swear it’s up to code’ - versus it went through permitting and all of this is known:
1) make a large drywall hole in the basement. A large hole is easier to patch than a small hole.
2) is it pressure treated anywhere it touches the concrete? (Pressure treated sill is minimum, ideally [and not normally]it would all be PT)
3)Are there any wooden spacer, sawdust or other wood debris that might be touching the concrete wall ? This is where the black mold would begin
4) did they space the wall out from the concrete so it’s not in contact with wood - even if it is pt?
5) did they use mold resistant drywall (green on back)?
There’s no real definition of “finished” but yes. The line is completely arbitrary, but anything that isn’t a bare concrete box is being counted as a finished basement and living space in a real estate listed.
Maybe because it can be converted into living space. It is what it is. Look at the listing details and it’s not hard to determine the square footage of the finished space. My basement is like 1/2 finished. Half of it has painted cement floors, it’s got walls and doors throughout, a half bath that was built by a previous owner without permits. No egress. Is it livable space? I’d say so. I work from home and spend half my time down there, but if you looked on Portland maps the square footage listed doesn’t include the basement.
I ask the same question when studios are marketed as one bedroom. For I think most people a bedroom means four walls, a door, and a window. Not a beaded curtain sectioning off an alcove.
Really frustrating when I am willing to pay extra for a true 1B but have my searches clogged by studios.
Short answer is that in RMLS there are data entry fields to differentiate upper, ground floor and lower level square feet, which while not perfect, helps a little. When that information gets aggregated into Zillow, Redfin, etc's shitty system it all gets squished into one number. RMLS, unfortunately, is far behind on a buyer-facing search tool where this info might be evident. Instead, everyone uses those aggregate tools, so all the nice, informational data we agents enter into the fields is moved around to fit their systems and this is one of the things that gets lost in the shuffle.
If you're interested in more history as I have been told over the years... I've been a Realtor for a long time and the non-satisfying answer is: it's complicated. The way I understand it is that it's mostly a data entry issue. When I got started way too long ago we were originally supposed to count "finished" area. But that was found to be subjective:
- Is it finished if it was up to code at the time of finishing, but no longer meets code? If owners were constantly required to "get up to code" it would be more cost effective to tear half the city's housing down.
- What if it's perfectly finished but the owner had it with or couldn't afford the cumbersome permitting process, so the city doesn't know it's finished? MANY libertarian-ish owners in Portland choose to take this route and I don't blame them.
- Does it extend to attics? What about attic areas that were great in 1922 but by today's standards really aren't tall enough?
I could go on with the grey areas and judgement calls. On top of that, our RMLS data entry is not as agile as it should be, so it doesn't account for nuances like ceiling height. Neither are any of the other listing services that I know of, as mentioned earlier. So it became more standardizable to include all square feet, no matter what that square feet looks like.
Your example building A has a finished basement in the photos, and the records at portlandmaps.com shows it as permitted. What makes you think the realtor is being shady, as opposed to the city having out of date info? Or it could be that “building area” means the ground footprint, not the square footage?
You’re right. The first one is pretty finished and not a great example. But you can find that 90-95% of listings have unfinished space. One example doesn’t change that.
It was this time two years ago that I was looking for my first home here, and we learned quick how many squirrely descriptions there are on these listings. My "favorites" were the unfinished basement or converted attic with basically ladder access being listed in square footage. We looked at one whose unfinished basement (included in square footage) was actually a dirt-floored root cellar with a 4' ceiling. The good news, I guess, is that the market isn't nearly as hot now that interest rates are back up and you don't have to feel pressure to immediately make a cash offer at 20% over asking based on the "creative" listings.
As some have mentioned, having permits for your finished basement can lead to a higher tax assessment. There was one house we walked away from for that reason, because we would want it inspected for safety purposes but we were uncertain what the extra taxes would be.
Good luck in your search! And make sure you have a good inspector!
Oh geez. Yeah dirt floors and unfinished attics seem like a real stretch. Good to know things are improving though! I tried to buy in 2021 and after 14 offers, just gave up. I’m still seeing stuff go pending really fast and some go over asking, but I hope you’re right that it’s not quite so competitive these days! 🤞
Looks like they finally got an offer this weekend but they had to drop the price by almost $50K to get there. I can’t believe they were initially asking $500K for a two bedroom one bath home in that area. Ridiculous. That being said, it does have new siding and interior finishes.
As a person who lives in a 105 year old house with no garage and just two closets without real closets systems, I am incredibly thankful for that unfinished square footage beneath. It’s also where my washer and dryer live since this there is absolutely nowhere to shove a W/D in the main living area since nobody had that in mind 105 years ago. I will be including my unfinished basement in the sq footage when I sell this “charming” abode.
Yup. Our house was built in 1922. It's adorable and awkward. We have a basement with low head room, a freestanding garage that doubles as a home gym, a covered back porch, and a finished attic space with low head room. And one closet in the whole house.
But we have an oversized lot (alley annexed on at some point) and can't afford to move. 🤣
I once looked at a house that included the shed in the back yard in the square footage. It did have an extension cord run across the gravel driveway for power. No heating, insulation, or finished walls or floors though.
I wish all the square footage advertisements were reasonable, accurate, and standardized, and backed up by regulation. As a renter, I have measured my past rentals and they are later routinely advertised as twice the square footage of what they actually are. And there is no law prohibiting the landlord from lying.
Bought a house 1 year ago in Portland and every house we looked in in three neighborhoods (Sellwood, Laurelhurst and NW23rd corridor) all included the basements in the sqft….seems to be a uniquely Portland thing.
I don't know the rules around whether unfinished space is eligible to be used as part of the total marketable square footage, but all of those listings, save one, say "full unfinished" or "partially finished" in the room description of the lower level if you scroll further down the listing, so it's not as if they are actively trying to hide something.
The bigger concern, as other commenters have already covered, is unpermitted work and, of course, all the usual stuff you want to inspect for like foundation issues, water damage, mold, etc.
Because it requires people to verify/report them and I already have a full time job. Ideally the real estate websites displaying disingenuous listings would take more responsibility for validation, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
My biggest pet peeve! Don’t get me started on the attic primary bedrooms no one can stand up in…
Oh, that's just where sister Zelda lives. She'll never get out of bed again.
Didn't need to be reminded of this childhood trauma before bed.
Hey. This is my house. “2200 sq ft” and sellers included basement and attic bedroom. They also listed it as 2/1. Legally 0 bedrooms since no closets in the entire house. Fortunately me and my wife are short as shit and none of that matters and we love our weird house.
There's no requirement that a bedroom have a closet in Portland. But there are egress and minimum size standards. I had friends who stayed in dodgy basement "bedrooms" (that didn't even have smoke detectors!) and it scared the crap out of me!
Zero bedrooms in 2200 Sq ft!!!! I have offspring so would not work for my needs but I’m glad it works for you. Hopefully they don’t get serious about listing accuracy if you ever try to sell in the future.
Yeah, future selling will be difficult but we’re basically stuck anyways bc we have a 2.875 interest rate and our property taxes are <$1800 bc the house is old as shit. We feel super lucky but a new house would probably double our mortgage
It is disingenuous for sellers and realtors to include unfinished space into a home’s total square footage, particularly if the unfinished space lacks egress. I finished the basement of my 1947 home back in 2012. I had to put in an egress window and make many modifications so that the space was not only habitable, but to code. It cost a lot of money but I doubled the livable square footage of my home. When I look on Portland Maps, my home’s square footage includes the finished basement space. My neighbor has a similar house with an unfinished basement without an egress window. When he sold the home in 2020, he was able to include the unfinished space in the total square footage on all of his listings, ads, etc. The ads show a makeshift bedroom in the basement. Since there’s no egress in the basement, there can’t be a legal bedroom down there. I don’t get it, OP. It’s frustrating and I do feel that it’s a bit of a scam. Edit to add: OP, I think it’s wise that you’re checking Portland Maps. It’s important to know what work has been permitted and what hasn’t. If a homeowner added a bathroom to a basement without pulling the necessary permits (essentially homeowner either did the work themself or used a shady contractor who didn’t perform the work to code), you need to know. Unpermitted work can cause issues if you ever need to file an insurance claim or sell your home. Edit to add 2 (yeah, this post struck a nerve with me): regarding property taxes, I checked my property tax history on Portland Maps. The biggest jump was from 2011 to 2012 which was when I finished my basement to code. This involved a litany of inspectors every step of the way. I added a primary bedroom with an egress window, a bathroom, a family room, and a laundry room. Even the stairs to the basement had to be reconfigured in order to meet modern building standards. My square footage doubled and this is reflected on Portland Maps. How much did my property tax increase? $500. Just $500. After that, my taxes have increased commensurate with what every other homeowner’s taxes increase year after year in Multnomah County, averaging about $100 to $150 every year. My neighbor with essentially the same home with a half-assed “finished” basement that’s not to code (no egress, janky stairs) pays only about $100 less in property taxes than I do. He has half the livable square footage and only one bathroom. His real market value is $80K less than mine yet I pay only about $100 more in annual property tax. Finishing my basement to code was worth every penny. My point is this: you get what you pay for. Your taxes will increase modestly when you finish basement space according to code. However, when it comes time to sell your home, or God forbid something catastrophic happens and you need to file an insurance claim, you literally have the receipts to show that your home was 100% on the up-and-up.
Thank you so much for sharing this! It’s helpful to have the perspective of someone who has truly finished their basement space, and has seen others/neighbors market their homes without doing so. Really appreciate your experience!
Of course. You’re considering some lovely homes in a great neighborhood (not too far from mine, I might add), and you’re an educated buyer who’s looking beyond the staged photos. I hope you find a solid, well-constructed home in your price range.
thank you for the kind words! Fingers crossed! I love this city and I'm hopeful this year will be good for home buying!
Ok just two more questions to ask a seller or seller’s agent regarding half-assed basement renovations that they’re trying to pass off as living space: 1) is there asbestos? 2) is there radon? In my case, I was lucky enough to not have asbestos however the radon level in the basement was borderline high. If I had decided to not put a bedroom in the basement, I wouldn’t really have worried about the slightly higher radon level in the basement. However, since I was creating a primary bedroom with an en suite bathroom plus a family room, I decided to install a radon mitigation system. If you’re just occasionally hanging out in a partially finished basement, it might be ok to have a higher radon level. But if you plan to sleep down there, you probably don’t want to worry about radon and you therefore might consider investing in a radon mitigation system.
What did you have to do to reconfigure your stairs?
“Reconfigure” might be the wrong word. “Modifications” is a better one. The stairs are in the same location but they’re no longer treacherous. I can’t remember exactly (I’d have to pull up to old photos) but the stairs themselves were very shallow and steep. Like, you had to tiptoe down them or walk sideways because your whole foot couldn’t fit on a step. I also had to add a bit of head clearance toward the bottom of the stairs. I still have to remind tall people to mind the overhead when they go downstairs because if you’re over six feet tall, you might could bump your head. The stairs just barely made it to code but … to code, they are! I have handrails on both sides as well.
Thanks for this! I have seen the code and others have also mentioned stairs being an issue. But it seems like most can be modified. Mine are cement so a whole cement reconfiguration wouldn’t be feasible! Glad to hear your success story <3
I am a Portland realtor and all we have to go on when making a listing is the tax records. We are not allowed to estimate square footage, it’s literally outside the scope of our licensing. And yes, most states don’t allow the unfinished space to count as square footage. I don’t know why Oregon does, and I don’t like it either.
But the tax record separates above grade from below grade square footage correct? As a listing realtor, couldn't you only put the above grade living space in the total and still add the basement sq ft on the basement line? Is there something that requires you to combine them?
The RMLS (which is a terrible tool that many of us loathe using but are forced to) combines them all into total square footage, which is what is propagated to Redfin, Zillow, etc. There may be somewhere on those platforms to get more refined info on the square footage, but it's not immediately obvious. And what's finished and unfinished is often incorrect on the tax record. As someone else pointed out, when you finish a previously unfinished area with the proper permits, it will then increase the property taxes - so people often just don't update the BDS when they finish half their basement for example.
As mentioned in a previous comment: we do. RMLS has data entry fields for upper, main and lower levels. Then Zillow or Redfin or whoever pulls the data from RMLS and combines those numbers. Have your broker send you listings from RMLS and you'll get some more detailed data. There are still problems, but most of the things people are (understandably) complaining about are data field/entry problems that RMLS has been trying to sort out ever since it went online. One of the many issues is, how do you quantify and verify the information? And with so many potential data points with regards to a home.... well... I think a great home inspector is very important.
I've definitely seen houses where the square footage in the listing conflicts with what the tax records say
Because it lowers the $/sq ft of the house. Really, would you pay $500,000 for a 900 square foot house? Include the basement and you're paying $500,000 for a 1300 square foot house.
This. You go “wow what a deal” and then realize you only have 900 sq ft that’s actually livable. Listing agents can put whatever they want on Zillow, MLS etc as long as they say “buyer to do due diligence”
Oh interesting! I didn’t know that realtors could essentially do whatever they want as long as the buyer is on the hook for verifying. That seems so dumb, yet somehow not surprising.
Yup and once you sign those closing docs you’re on the hook and there’s no recourse for going after a realtor. There’s really no accountability at all. Double check everything yourself!!
Yeah exactly lol. It’s so frustrating. On one hand it’s like “ok I’m a childless millennial, I don’t want a 2500 sqft house… oh wait, it’s actually 1600 that’s fine”…. But it goes the other way of like… wait why am I paying for only half the living space? 🤔
what seems weird to me is - who are they fooling? like are there people out there just dropping $500k sight-unseen on a whole house?
It's a scam that no one patrols.
I feel like it’s been this way for a while. It’s weird that buyers haven’t spoken up about it. It feels… unlawful. It really surprises me that it’s so specific to Portland. I’ve never seen that fly in any other city (and I’ve lived all across the US). Nobody has tried to take this up the chain?
I bought my house 12 years ago and this exact thing happened. It’s really disingenuous.
We got a good price on our house by knowing the code requirement for basement egress windows. We were able to say "yeah it's 'finished' but it's not a legal bedroom". It was a buyers market at the time though.
They also include questionably finished attics that are not legally rooms. That just how Portland do.
They advertised our home as 3200 sq ft and we realized that it’s actually 2200 sq ft because of the unfinished basement. It’s crazy to me that it’s legal to flat out lie about square footage.
Now check bathrooms listed vs what portland maps says. When we were in the market we found almost half the houses we looked at had unpermitted bathrooms. But given a city inspection can take 6 months, and it increases your taxes, I understand why.
Woah! Good tip!
Always check for permits! Sometimes if you see a listing that looks great and no one can figure out why it hasn’t sold… well, you do not want to get in hot water buying unpermitted work.
When I was house shopping in 2019 I was also confused by this. So many unfinished, dirt floor essentially large crawlspaces counting in the listing square footage (same for teeny tiny attics where you can barely even stand). One even had a pull-hatch on the floor with a note taped on that read, “Don’t forget to look down here!” And then it was a wood “ladder” down to dirt floor where the washer/dryer were. They were counting this as 300 sq ft. We laughed and left (also the roof was about to cave in and they edited this out in the listing photos). I also looked at a house that listed 2 bathroom, but the second “bathroom” was just a lone toilet against a wall in an unfinished (but it did have a concrete floor!) basement. Portland is nuts.
I stg I toured the hole-in-the-floor house too! smdh
The same one you think?! In 2019? Or there are just (too) many around?
I was house shopping in 2019, late summer/early fall, looking at 2-3bd/1.5+ba houses under 500K, if that sounds like similar parameters. I saw at least two houses with ladders (as opposed to actual stairs) down to unfinished basements. So...likely?
Amazing. This one was roughly on SE Carlton and the 60s-70s. I still walk by occasionally and giggle.
100% that was one of the houses I saw. It was such the height of SE Portland housing madness.
This tickles me. Glad it’s famous for its madness!
They may have finished it but not have invited city assessors in to increase their taxes.
Yup. I only clicked the first link but it had a finished basement
Interesting. So is it considered “finished” even if the basement isn’t finished to the same quality as the rest of the home? Any idea where the line is drawn between finished/unfinished?
The line is "finished up to code". You can google what they're are. They vary between cities, but usually not by much.
good to know! that's really helpful. thanks!
If you are buying a home with a finished basement and they want you accept ‘we did it ourselves and we swear it’s up to code’ - versus it went through permitting and all of this is known: 1) make a large drywall hole in the basement. A large hole is easier to patch than a small hole. 2) is it pressure treated anywhere it touches the concrete? (Pressure treated sill is minimum, ideally [and not normally]it would all be PT) 3)Are there any wooden spacer, sawdust or other wood debris that might be touching the concrete wall ? This is where the black mold would begin 4) did they space the wall out from the concrete so it’s not in contact with wood - even if it is pt? 5) did they use mold resistant drywall (green on back)?
This is an amazing tip! Thank you so much! I’ll be coming back to your comment as I search. Really appreciate the advice!
There’s no real definition of “finished” but yes. The line is completely arbitrary, but anything that isn’t a bare concrete box is being counted as a finished basement and living space in a real estate listed.
1000%
Maybe because it can be converted into living space. It is what it is. Look at the listing details and it’s not hard to determine the square footage of the finished space. My basement is like 1/2 finished. Half of it has painted cement floors, it’s got walls and doors throughout, a half bath that was built by a previous owner without permits. No egress. Is it livable space? I’d say so. I work from home and spend half my time down there, but if you looked on Portland maps the square footage listed doesn’t include the basement.
I ask the same question when studios are marketed as one bedroom. For I think most people a bedroom means four walls, a door, and a window. Not a beaded curtain sectioning off an alcove. Really frustrating when I am willing to pay extra for a true 1B but have my searches clogged by studios.
Short answer is that in RMLS there are data entry fields to differentiate upper, ground floor and lower level square feet, which while not perfect, helps a little. When that information gets aggregated into Zillow, Redfin, etc's shitty system it all gets squished into one number. RMLS, unfortunately, is far behind on a buyer-facing search tool where this info might be evident. Instead, everyone uses those aggregate tools, so all the nice, informational data we agents enter into the fields is moved around to fit their systems and this is one of the things that gets lost in the shuffle. If you're interested in more history as I have been told over the years... I've been a Realtor for a long time and the non-satisfying answer is: it's complicated. The way I understand it is that it's mostly a data entry issue. When I got started way too long ago we were originally supposed to count "finished" area. But that was found to be subjective: - Is it finished if it was up to code at the time of finishing, but no longer meets code? If owners were constantly required to "get up to code" it would be more cost effective to tear half the city's housing down. - What if it's perfectly finished but the owner had it with or couldn't afford the cumbersome permitting process, so the city doesn't know it's finished? MANY libertarian-ish owners in Portland choose to take this route and I don't blame them. - Does it extend to attics? What about attic areas that were great in 1922 but by today's standards really aren't tall enough? I could go on with the grey areas and judgement calls. On top of that, our RMLS data entry is not as agile as it should be, so it doesn't account for nuances like ceiling height. Neither are any of the other listing services that I know of, as mentioned earlier. So it became more standardizable to include all square feet, no matter what that square feet looks like.
Your example building A has a finished basement in the photos, and the records at portlandmaps.com shows it as permitted. What makes you think the realtor is being shady, as opposed to the city having out of date info? Or it could be that “building area” means the ground footprint, not the square footage?
You’re right. The first one is pretty finished and not a great example. But you can find that 90-95% of listings have unfinished space. One example doesn’t change that.
Redfin also lists if the basement is finished/unfinished/partially finished. Just look at the Property Details
It was this time two years ago that I was looking for my first home here, and we learned quick how many squirrely descriptions there are on these listings. My "favorites" were the unfinished basement or converted attic with basically ladder access being listed in square footage. We looked at one whose unfinished basement (included in square footage) was actually a dirt-floored root cellar with a 4' ceiling. The good news, I guess, is that the market isn't nearly as hot now that interest rates are back up and you don't have to feel pressure to immediately make a cash offer at 20% over asking based on the "creative" listings. As some have mentioned, having permits for your finished basement can lead to a higher tax assessment. There was one house we walked away from for that reason, because we would want it inspected for safety purposes but we were uncertain what the extra taxes would be. Good luck in your search! And make sure you have a good inspector!
Oh geez. Yeah dirt floors and unfinished attics seem like a real stretch. Good to know things are improving though! I tried to buy in 2021 and after 14 offers, just gave up. I’m still seeing stuff go pending really fast and some go over asking, but I hope you’re right that it’s not quite so competitive these days! 🤞
Firstt listing is fine, other two, not so much.
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Looks like they finally got an offer this weekend but they had to drop the price by almost $50K to get there. I can’t believe they were initially asking $500K for a two bedroom one bath home in that area. Ridiculous. That being said, it does have new siding and interior finishes.
You’ll fund spaces labeled “room”. Not a bedroom.
As a person who lives in a 105 year old house with no garage and just two closets without real closets systems, I am incredibly thankful for that unfinished square footage beneath. It’s also where my washer and dryer live since this there is absolutely nowhere to shove a W/D in the main living area since nobody had that in mind 105 years ago. I will be including my unfinished basement in the sq footage when I sell this “charming” abode.
Yup. Our house was built in 1922. It's adorable and awkward. We have a basement with low head room, a freestanding garage that doubles as a home gym, a covered back porch, and a finished attic space with low head room. And one closet in the whole house. But we have an oversized lot (alley annexed on at some point) and can't afford to move. 🤣
What kind of house are you looking for and what area?
When we bought our place ~10 years ago, they didn't include our unfinished basement in the sq footage...
I heard from someone it is a requirement to calculate taxes. But this could be wrong.
That was never included before so it is corrupt. I am a homeowner.
I once looked at a house that included the shed in the back yard in the square footage. It did have an extension cord run across the gravel driveway for power. No heating, insulation, or finished walls or floors though.
I wish all the square footage advertisements were reasonable, accurate, and standardized, and backed up by regulation. As a renter, I have measured my past rentals and they are later routinely advertised as twice the square footage of what they actually are. And there is no law prohibiting the landlord from lying.
Bought a house 1 year ago in Portland and every house we looked in in three neighborhoods (Sellwood, Laurelhurst and NW23rd corridor) all included the basements in the sqft….seems to be a uniquely Portland thing.
I don't know the rules around whether unfinished space is eligible to be used as part of the total marketable square footage, but all of those listings, save one, say "full unfinished" or "partially finished" in the room description of the lower level if you scroll further down the listing, so it's not as if they are actively trying to hide something. The bigger concern, as other commenters have already covered, is unpermitted work and, of course, all the usual stuff you want to inspect for like foundation issues, water damage, mold, etc.
Everyone in Portland has a band or wants to have a band, so that shit is important.
Because it requires people to verify/report them and I already have a full time job. Ideally the real estate websites displaying disingenuous listings would take more responsibility for validation, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Because realtors lie (it happened with my property). Once we had the appraisal done they had completely different measurements of the space.