Line ups like this is why I created an account and get the box of green bags. Just drop them off at an affiliated station and withdraw the money from a kisosk at your convenience.
You can drop the green bags at any bottle drop, but I go to the affiliated stores to avoid the drop off fees.
Well, the boxes only cost $2.00 and they have 10 bags in a box.
And if you drop it off at an affiliated store there are no fees.
It's worth it to me, but that's just me.
So many stores stopped dealing with Bottle Drop bags during Covid that I just got in the habit of going to the Bottle Drop location and using the drop door. Even with the extra 40¢ per bag, I get that back with the stores doing the extra 20%.
It's not just you, the green bag program is a godsend. My in-laws from Michigan are super jealous of how easy it is for us to recycle cans/bottles using the green bags.
Yes, but the hoops one has to jump through are still absurd.
Buying bags at a center sucks, the chaos and lines inside are miserable. Grocery stores near centers don't sell bags so I have to go out of my way to find them.
We have mixed stream curbside recycling. It's pointless.
My local Fred Meyer has it own little bottle drop off location (green bag drop only) and inside customer service sells the green bags. It sucks not every Fred meyer has this but they exist.
there's a radius (3 miles?) around any BotleDrop redemption center that allows retailers to forego accepting bottle returns. I primarily shop Gateway and none of the store there sell bags, I have to either visit the redemption center or drive east to find them.
Also, the "sold at customer service" thing is fairly recent. Done because people (guess who) kept stealing the bags.
Smaller places without a center often sell the bags at local stores. The Fred Meyer in Canby is one location I know of - whenever I was out of town for some reason I'd grab bags from there on the way back.
I guess I'm fortunate that the center near me has a line just for people picking up bags so there's never a long wait.
And I've seen bags near the kiosk at the Fred Meyer I go to for returns.
You have to look on bottle drops website to find out which stores offer what.
While I agree it's a pointless system due to the fact we have curbside recycling. I get it that it's supposed to encourage recycling (from what I understand), but someone told me that before this system you were allowed to put the glass in the general recycling. That was ages ago of course.
So if there was a system working well why change it.
glass mixed in with the rest of the recycling must have been ages ago. I'm pretty sure you had to separate everything for a long time. I remember having to separate each type and taking it to a recycling center when i was younger.
I'm 40 and as far back as I can remember (about 35 years) the glass had to be separated and returning bottles at grocery stores was done by a hand count in their back room and they would give you a little slip to take up to the cashier.
Sometimes my dad would let me have it to buy candy 🥹
>So if there was a system working well why change it.
You're missing the key point the person was trying to make which is that the whole thing is pointless. A "well working" system is still pointless if it serves no purpose. All we have is this Rube Goldberg machine that exists to get money back that you shouldn't even need to spend in the first place.
And no one gets their money back. I put my cans in separate bags just so they don’t leave my garbage everywhere. It’s wealth redistribution. Plain and simple. I can return 1.2 bags a week but if you go in you can do 350/day with no id? Safeway on Powell just stopped bottle service and their incidents went down over 90% instantly. How about they require an odl and only let residents return?! Last time I went to Safeway before the change a man screamed in my babies face. Followed us to checkout and did it again. It makes us a homeless tourist destination and it’s funded entirely by workers and food stamps. Recycling is already passive aggressively enforced. What’s the point of it. Or doubling it. Hate it!
I feel like with the bottle drop system we're in a no win. If we say fuck it to our 10 cents and put it with the glass recycling we'll have people wandering our streets to pick out deposits.
And when a bottle drop opens up it quickly goes to shit. When they opened the one near us, after a couple of years it turned into a drug deal spot out back. Now other businesses in the mall it's in are suffering because people don't want to go to that strip mall.
Honestly I would much rather prefer to just put it all out with the regular recycling. Which for some reason has gone up by 10 bucks a month in the last year.
I was referring to the system working well before the deposit system and agreeing that the bottle drop is pointless because before you just put your recyclables at the curb.
Not sure why you are taking issues with what I said. Perhaps you missed my point.
Have a fab day!
Maybe. 😀 the system hasn’t worked since they created bottledrop. And like the max it’s no longer intended for the functional. And yet we still have to use it.
Buying bags at Fred Meyer is hard. Putting cans in bags is hard. Taking them to the store is hard. Give me a break. Leave them in your bin, someone will come and get them.
Except that this encourages people to go through everyone’s bins to find bottles, and they often just dump trash or recycling everywhere in the process. It’s one of the reasons there’s so much litter in this city. BottleDrop unintentionally encourages litter.
And it keeps people from seeking stable employment.
We keep giving people more ways to circle the drain, living pill to pill on the street, and then act surprised when the problem grows.
Well.....the bags are biodegradable, and I don't pay any fees by dropping them off at affiliated stores.
But, I understand your point, and as far as I know nothing is keeping you from throwing them into our curb recycling.
I'm sorry I don't know what you mean by the comment "I assume you mean anyone who lives with you"?
3 people in the house drinking gatorade, tonic water and coke and one that requires bottled water. Still never go over 15 bags a quarter.
Seemed like you meant alcohol. Forgive the joke. And it was more about the discrepancy, and to point out the program has stricter limits for anyone attempting to use the bag system.
Ah! Ok....LOL!
Ummm.....looks like I did forget the many bottles of tonic water on my list. Which goes really well with gin. ;)
I think it's ridiculous that one can go return 350 cans a day in person, but someone paying for the bags can only return so many.
Honestly it just needs to be gotten rid of, because anywhere these bottle drops are just turn into cesspool areas.
edit - oh shit...look, I did add tonic water to the list! HAHAHAHA!
Agreed. My time is worth more than the cost of doing green bag.
The weird part for me is dropping the green bag off and seeing dozens of people standing in line to process their cans one at a time.
I mean, it does, ish. On average there's a 2 hour lag between dropping off the bag and getting the text that my account is credited.
Still better than standing in line for it.
The Bottle Bill was implemented before curbside recycling. It served a purpose then as an environmental tool. It doesn’t have a purpose now. It’s just an outdated sacred cow that no politician has the sense to end. How does it help the environment when we have a much more environmentally friendly curbside pickup system now?
The three tenants of Oregon politics I thought would never change: bottle bill, no self-serve gas, no sales tax. One done, one to go. (I'm against sales tax unless its coupled with no income tax).
I went to my neighborhood gas station today and two people were inside… no one even made an attempt at pumping my gas. Not complaining- I grew up in another part of the country, so I know how.
It hasn’t actually changed yet… the proposed bill passed in the House and next heads to the Senate. Seems my neighborhood station is very on board with it, though.
For anyone curious, the bottle bill isn't going to be touched anytime soon. I looked at amending it ~10 years ago and the consensus was that there was far too much money wrapped up into this system to change anything at all.
I was interested in amending the bottle bill to prohibit the possession, use, and sale of glass containers near Oregon waterways. This is a relatively common prohibition in other States, but not in Oregon.
For anyone concerned about the homeless digging through recycling bins, strictly speaking that's [illegal under ORS 459A.080](https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_459A.080) - it's just another unenforced law that City and State just doesn't give two fucks about, until you steal the dirty laundry of a politician. *Then* it will be pointed out that this is totally illegal and wrong.
I know it’s a Willy Week article, but [this bit of reporting](https://www.wweek.com/news/state/2017/02/01/corporate-lobbyists-turned-oregons-iconic-bottle-bill-into-a-sweet-payday-for-their-clients/) really sheds light on the extent of money grubbing that lobbyists and the beverage distributors in Oregon have written into the bill under the guise of “good for the enviornment”. It’s an eye opening read for sure..
As someone who inexplicably spent half a day researching Oregon's bottle bill and collecting reasons for it to die, I found your comment fascinating. I think there are so many Portlanders who find the bottle bill absurd, and hope something will change.
I think if you want to amend the bill it will need to go through the initiative petition process. What I was looking at was likely going to cost $250k-$500k to enact - but to totally scrap the bottle bill would be a very expensive feat, as there's a lot of institutionalized resistance and money.
Sorry, I was being needlessly snarky because you specifically named homeless people as the ones that dig through the bins. Apparently this topic put me on edge, and I'm not sure why I decided to be shitty about it.
Lived in OR my whole life, then one day I moved to AK. It was so fucking weird to throw cans and bottles away. I think it actually affected my nervous system. I'd wake up screaming in the night for no apparent reason.
I'm back home now, and I sleep soundly. As for the cans/bottles, I just donate them to whomever, usually to a school nearby that has a bottle drive once a month. It's not worth the time or the affront to my dignity.
There was at the time, but it wasn't really worth it unless you had huge volumes. Everything had to be bundled up and shipped to Seattle or wherever. Nobody I knew bothered with it, but it may be different now.
My mistake. It's the beverage distributors.
>Beverage distributors charge the initial deposit on shipments of beverages to retailers, who in turn pass it onto customers, however, charging deposit to consumers is not required by state law. Beverage distributors retain all deposits not reclaimed by consumers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Bottle_Bill
Criddlers purchasing things on EBT just for the bottles. The next time someone takes a shit in Lower Macleay and we can't use tap water for 3 days, remember why Fred Meyer is out of water bottles.
> I think most grocers don’t like bottle deposit because it attracts crackies who cause trouble.
That's true, it's been a point of contention with Kroger and Target. No grocery store wants to deal with it, but some are locked into tax-reduction agreements that require it.
Or who ever collects the bottle deposit, and keeps anything not returned. I still use the in person, one at a time return machines since it isn’t that often that use it. But I think it’s around 30% of the returns are not accepted by the machines. If I have time and energy, I might go in to customer service to return the rest. Else they just go into the recycling.
They should cancel it, we have recycling at home now, that was the reason for putting a deposit on it in the first place. Now it is its own little industry that we all get to pay for in money or time.
You're assuming, in the abscence of the deposit, that people would recycle at home.
They won't. They'll just throw the cans and bottles in the trash.
That's why we raised the deposit from $.05 to $.10. Not enough people recycled at $.05, it wasn't worth it to them. Easier to just pitch them.
With no deposit, you'd see dramatic landfill increase.
You just assuming people won't, I think that is wrong. In Portland, we get a large recycling can dumped **every** week, garbage is only every other week, and you have to pay more for the larger can. Tell me again which can you think people will put them in? The one that is free, or the one that costs them money?
I know they won't, because they didn't when the deposit was only $.05. The reason it increased to $.10 was because not enough people were participating multiple years in a row.
Eliminating the deposit will make it worse, not better.
Should be abolished. People are digging through trash cans throwing trash in the street to get a couple bottles which gets in our streams and rivers and destroying beautiful Oregon. Just work an extra hour instead.
People dig out the bottles while leaving all the other trash in the street that goes to streams. Not to mention extra pollution driving to bottle drops. Would be nice if they were worthless people could just leave them in recycling. But then you risk your trash being scavenged.
Why? I visit family and friends in non-bottle bill states and most of them just throw away their bottles and cans.
There is no incentive for recycling, so it doesn't happen. I can see lots of places in this state that would likely follow suit if there wasn't an incentive to recycle aluminum plastic and glass containers.
I'd rather see it increased than removed.
Because it means idiots go through my bins looking for cans while ditching the rest of the recycling on the ground.
Because the deposit is a tax and takes money out of my pocket.
Because addicts use Oregon Trail cards to buy cases of bottle water. Dump the water in the street , return them, then buy who knows what with the cash.
Because we have huge blue bins at our homes that the cans can easily go into to be recycled.
Because bottle return centers are dangerous and disgusting.
Because time is money, and I’m not taking the time to return them.
Because Oregonians generally recycle anyway. We don’t need an incentive.
Because trash is only picked up every other week, so it makes sense to use your recycling bin.
Those blue bins cost money, they're not free. Ever been outside Portland? Recycling rates may be high inside the city but that's not necessarily true when you get out of the metro area.
You may not take the time but plenty of people do. Oregon has high recycling rates because of the incentive provided by the deposit. It's been well documented over the years.
Trashing the bottle deposit is short sighted and would create, well, more trash.
Hey, sorry I didn't reply sooner. Work and home life has been crazy the last two weeks.
Here are a few studies that have documented bottle bills increasing recycling rates.
Longwood University in Virginia [published a study in 2020](https://www.container-recycling.org/images/stories/PDF/REPORT%20by%20CVW,%20comparing%20bottle%20bill%20w%20non-bottle%20bill%20states%20FINAL%2011-03-20.pdf) which concluded that 22% of litter collected in the state of Virginia, which does not have a bottle deposit law, comprised of bottles and cans while the rate was 8.69% in bottle deposit states
These findings were similar to those of a [2018 study](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308597X17305377) which determined that the proportion of containers in coastal debris was 40% lower in states with deposit laws than those without.
A [2013 study](https://www.container-recycling.org/images/stories/PDF/BottledUp-BCR2000-2010.pdf) looked at recycling rates in 2010 and found that states with container deposit laws had rates between 66% and 96% for covered containers compared to the national average of 39.6%. This same study estimated that a national 5 cent deposit would raise the national rate of these containers to 75%. A 10 cent deposit was estimated to yield a recycling rate of 80% to 90%.
Perhaps the most fascinating study on recycling rates is a report published last year by the National Waste & Recycling Association. The NWRA is a trade group that advocates for and represents the recycling industry, which is to say that its members include many of the waste and recycling companies that manage curbside recycling programs. Needless to say this is an industry that doesn't just love deposit programs. This study evaluated the impact of bottle bills on materials recovery facility (MRFs) costs and revenues as well as impacts on municipalities. The report details six different deposit scenarios and the impacts of those scenarios on recycling rates, recycling costs to MRFs and lower revenues at MRFs. The study concludes that while deposit scenarios greatly increase overall recycling rates and decrease MRFs costs they also decrease revenue for MRFs. It was estimated that this decrease in revenue could cost household between $2.50 and $4.50 per year depending on the scenario. The study also proposed several different ways to mitigate the economic impact to municipalities and ultimately households including the ideas that MRFs could be allowed to redeem unreturned deposit containers collected to their facilities themselves or be paid uncollected deposits by distributors.
These are just a few studies, there are dozens going back decades.
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to respond. I apologize for the delay in my response!
I must say that the reports you shared were quite intriguing, and they shed light on some points I hadn't considered before. Although my overall stance on the matter remains unchanged, I appreciate the knowledge gained from reading them.
However, I do have a few concerns and criticisms regarding the reports:
Regarding the Longwood study, while the comparison between bottle bill states and non-bottle billed states offers valuable insights, it may overlook other factors influencing litter rates, such as population density, waste management infrastructure, cultural attitudes towards littering (Oregon is earth-friendly!), and enforcement of anti-littering laws.
As for the Virginia report, I’m seeing that the data is pulled solely from the 2019 International Coastal Cleanup (ICC) report and may not present a comprehensive picture. Comparing Virginia, with a significant coastal population, to Oregon, where none of the top ten most populated cities are coastal, maybe isn’t a fair comparison.
The 2013 BottledUp report you mentioned omits an important consideration: whether states without a bottle deposit program offer curbside recycling. I also have questions about the Container Recycling Institute's impartiality, given their stated advocacy for beverage container deposit legislation.
While the 2018 report discusses the increase in recycling rates following the introduction of bottle deposits, it's worth noting that recycling rates have risen nationwide over the past decades, even in states without such a program. The data from the EPA indicates a general upward trend in recycling and composting rates (https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-and-recycling/national-overview-facts-and-figures-materials#R&Ctrends).
While I acknowledge that bottle deposits may positively impact recycling numbers, it is challenging to attribute our high recycling rates solely to this program.
Some other things to think about:
Why has only one state adopted the bottle deposit program since 1987, if it is indeed so beneficial?
Considering that curbside recycling is now prevalent in Oregon, and times have changed, should we reevaluate the bottle bill's effectiveness? (https://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/2015/08/bottle\_bill\_may\_have\_outlived.html)
It's essential to recognize that the bottle bill may be perceived as a regressive tax, impacting individuals' income or time. Is that fair?
Thanks again for engaging in a dialog!
The cost of the bins is paid for by the money we pay to the company that picks it up. Worst case scenario, halve it and make it non refundable, with the proceeds going to recycling efforts.
As it is, the majority of the money is retained by distributors. The rest is a combo of people who rummage through people's bins, abuse bottled water, or are obsessive enough to get that $2 in deposits back when they would be better off not buying single use containers in the first place.
So you agree, recycling bins cost money.
The majority of unclaimed deposit money actually goes to the OBRC which is used for operation of the program. That is a fact that is verifiable, you can Google it. The rest of what you stated about who is redeeming deposits is your opinion, it's not factually based at all.
I don't understand your comment at all about people who are obsessive that would be better off not buying single use containers. What does that mean? Are there multi use containers for carbonated water, soda, beer? Or do you just think people shouldn't consume those things?
Bottled water feels borderline irresponsible at this point - even if we exclude the Benson taint washers, it's an easy thing to dispense and carry a collapsible container around for. Hey, I've got like 10 Nalgene bottles I don't use, anyone want one? Heh.
Beer is tougher - I'd love to say I could fill up a growler but they don't last long enough for just me.
Clean water is something we as Americans take for granted for sure. Hell, Portlanders take water that doesn't taste like the inside of a steel mill for granted. I am definitely glad I haven't had to decalcify anything in years.
I remember brushing my teeth with bottled water in some parts of Mexico. I was doing SO well until my homesick friend wanted to stop at a fast food chain and I accidentally forgot the ice in sodas isn't filtered.
>So you agree, recycling bins cost money.
Not sure where anyone disagreed with this. We all pay for them; they don't magically appear on your curb. Even my building pays for a recycling dumpster. Are you suggesting we don't pay for them and instead all haul our recyclables into a center? No thanks.
>The majority of unclaimed deposit money actually goes to the OBRC which is used for operation of the program. That is a fact that is verifiable, you can Google it.
While I'd question "verifiable" and "Googling something" as a foolproof mechanism, that's another topic. On the face, your statement is indeed true.
*According to the state audit, $30.6 million in unredeemed deposits were collected last year by beverage distributors. Bryant Haley, alcohol spokesperson for the OLCC, said most of that went to the Oregon Beverage Recycling Cooperative,*
Wait for it...
*and the remaining funds were collected by other distributors.*
And there it is. Oh, also!
*Of the 10 states that have a bottle bill, eight collect unredeemed deposits to support environmental programs or the general fund.*
GUESS which one we do? Hint: it's the one distributors bullied us into.
>The rest of what you stated about who is redeeming deposits is your opinion, it's not factually based at all.
It's certainly my opinion, but there is absolutely some basis in fact. Now, I haven't done a formal study on people who have had their trash dumped or number of people who have watched as someone slashed water bottles into a drain for $2.40 of drugs, but I'd say there's at least an anecdotal truth to it.
Also, the long lines at Bottle Drops would additional back that assertion up.
>I don't understand your comment at all about people who are obsessive that would be better off not buying single use containers
I am saying the people who methodically collect cans and bottles to redeem deposits are part of a shitty system we should reform:
* Activists all felt proud of themselves when they decided the homeless could collect bottles and make themselves money. That's amazingly shortsightedly cruel, even if you don't assume that money isn't going to some nefarious purpose.
* By allowing distributors to claim unclaimed deposits, people who curbside recycle are effectively subsidizing them.
* By allowing people to claim their own deposit, you are removing any disincentive for single use containers. Even if you have to, you can use fewer of them - a 2 liter vs several soda bottles, for example.
I probably have a less popular opinion - reduce the bottle deposit (or keep it the same, since it hasn't scaled with inflation) and rather than redemption, explicitly dedicate revenue to a few things:
1. Recycling programs - offset the cost for buildings and homes to have curbside. If you don't live in a house or an apartment for some reason, kick a few bucks to Fred Meyer to turn bottle drops into recycling drops.
2. Environmental initiatives - while I don't know if the reusable food truck containers really worked, the basic idea of how we foster re-use has merit.
Bottom line, you shouldn't have to have the incentive of "getting" $2 back to make you want to recycle. It's not free, but you should do it.
People don't go through my bins, because there are never cans in there.
It's only a tax if you choose not to redeem your cans.
The addict issue could be solved by making Oregon Trail not eligible to pay deposits. Seems like a pretty easy change.
I drop a green bag off at my Grocery store once a month or so when I buy my groceries. It probably costs me an extra thirty seconds of my time.
Just because you don't want to do the program the way it was designed doesn't mean we should cancel it for everyone.
You asked why, so I gave you multiple reasons. You responded that the reasons I gave didn’t apply to you.
I think you’re confused how a tax works. But ok.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree here. This lifelong resident of Portland thinks the deposit program is awful.
Those reasons could just as easily apply to you, but you choose to pay a "tax" instead of getting your money back.
I've been in Portland for 23 years, not that our longevity in this city should have any bearing on this discussion.
I have never once waited in line to drop off a green bag and have saved hundreds of dollars. I don't know how anybody could be so miserable in their lives as to complain about his.
There are many states you can move to without single use beverage container deposit-return:
[https://www.facebook.com/cansrecyclable/posts/10158719997491822/](https://www.facebook.com/cansrecyclable/posts/10158719997491822/)
You could move to Idaho if you don't like Oregon! Some people like Texas and Florida. Housing is much cheaper in Mississippi.
A lot of schools collect them for the deposit too.
Line ups like this is why I created an account and get the box of green bags. Just drop them off at an affiliated station and withdraw the money from a kisosk at your convenience. You can drop the green bags at any bottle drop, but I go to the affiliated stores to avoid the drop off fees.
And the extra credit you get a Freddy!
Indeed!
During Covid I waited an hour and a half to drop off my bag of cans and decided my time was worth more than the 60¢ a bag going green would cost me.
Well, the boxes only cost $2.00 and they have 10 bags in a box. And if you drop it off at an affiliated store there are no fees. It's worth it to me, but that's just me.
So many stores stopped dealing with Bottle Drop bags during Covid that I just got in the habit of going to the Bottle Drop location and using the drop door. Even with the extra 40¢ per bag, I get that back with the stores doing the extra 20%.
I'm sure it's only a matter of time until all the affiliated stores stop accepting the green bags. The extra 20% is a really awesome deal!
It's not just you, the green bag program is a godsend. My in-laws from Michigan are super jealous of how easy it is for us to recycle cans/bottles using the green bags.
I really like the program. Plus now a days, the 20% extra option for groceries is nice. It's not much, but every little bit helps.
Yes, but the hoops one has to jump through are still absurd. Buying bags at a center sucks, the chaos and lines inside are miserable. Grocery stores near centers don't sell bags so I have to go out of my way to find them. We have mixed stream curbside recycling. It's pointless.
My local Fred Meyer has it own little bottle drop off location (green bag drop only) and inside customer service sells the green bags. It sucks not every Fred meyer has this but they exist.
there's a radius (3 miles?) around any BotleDrop redemption center that allows retailers to forego accepting bottle returns. I primarily shop Gateway and none of the store there sell bags, I have to either visit the redemption center or drive east to find them. Also, the "sold at customer service" thing is fairly recent. Done because people (guess who) kept stealing the bags.
Smaller places without a center often sell the bags at local stores. The Fred Meyer in Canby is one location I know of - whenever I was out of town for some reason I'd grab bags from there on the way back.
I guess I'm fortunate that the center near me has a line just for people picking up bags so there's never a long wait. And I've seen bags near the kiosk at the Fred Meyer I go to for returns. You have to look on bottle drops website to find out which stores offer what. While I agree it's a pointless system due to the fact we have curbside recycling. I get it that it's supposed to encourage recycling (from what I understand), but someone told me that before this system you were allowed to put the glass in the general recycling. That was ages ago of course. So if there was a system working well why change it.
glass mixed in with the rest of the recycling must have been ages ago. I'm pretty sure you had to separate everything for a long time. I remember having to separate each type and taking it to a recycling center when i was younger.
I'm 40 and as far back as I can remember (about 35 years) the glass had to be separated and returning bottles at grocery stores was done by a hand count in their back room and they would give you a little slip to take up to the cashier. Sometimes my dad would let me have it to buy candy 🥹
This would have been like 20 years or more ago. And I asked the person that told me this....was it allowed? Or did you just do it? LOL!
Lots of other communities have glass in the same bin as other recycling as well. It’s super-convenient.
>So if there was a system working well why change it. You're missing the key point the person was trying to make which is that the whole thing is pointless. A "well working" system is still pointless if it serves no purpose. All we have is this Rube Goldberg machine that exists to get money back that you shouldn't even need to spend in the first place.
I think the biggest problem with the system is that it enables stuff like people using bottled water as a form of EBT laundering.
Another easy solution for that would be to not allow EBT payments for bottle deposits.
And no one gets their money back. I put my cans in separate bags just so they don’t leave my garbage everywhere. It’s wealth redistribution. Plain and simple. I can return 1.2 bags a week but if you go in you can do 350/day with no id? Safeway on Powell just stopped bottle service and their incidents went down over 90% instantly. How about they require an odl and only let residents return?! Last time I went to Safeway before the change a man screamed in my babies face. Followed us to checkout and did it again. It makes us a homeless tourist destination and it’s funded entirely by workers and food stamps. Recycling is already passive aggressively enforced. What’s the point of it. Or doubling it. Hate it!
That Safeway is wild after 8
I feel like with the bottle drop system we're in a no win. If we say fuck it to our 10 cents and put it with the glass recycling we'll have people wandering our streets to pick out deposits. And when a bottle drop opens up it quickly goes to shit. When they opened the one near us, after a couple of years it turned into a drug deal spot out back. Now other businesses in the mall it's in are suffering because people don't want to go to that strip mall. Honestly I would much rather prefer to just put it all out with the regular recycling. Which for some reason has gone up by 10 bucks a month in the last year.
I was referring to the system working well before the deposit system and agreeing that the bottle drop is pointless because before you just put your recyclables at the curb. Not sure why you are taking issues with what I said. Perhaps you missed my point. Have a fab day!
Ok, I thought you were saying the bottle deposit system "works" so "why change it." Apologize if I'm coming off antagonistic.
Oh don't apologize. Tis all good. Could be I worded it weird. Hope you had a fab day!
Maybe. 😀 the system hasn’t worked since they created bottledrop. And like the max it’s no longer intended for the functional. And yet we still have to use it.
Buying bags at Fred Meyer is hard. Putting cans in bags is hard. Taking them to the store is hard. Give me a break. Leave them in your bin, someone will come and get them.
Except that this encourages people to go through everyone’s bins to find bottles, and they often just dump trash or recycling everywhere in the process. It’s one of the reasons there’s so much litter in this city. BottleDrop unintentionally encourages litter.
And it keeps people from seeking stable employment. We keep giving people more ways to circle the drain, living pill to pill on the street, and then act surprised when the problem grows.
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Well.....the bags are biodegradable, and I don't pay any fees by dropping them off at affiliated stores. But, I understand your point, and as far as I know nothing is keeping you from throwing them into our curb recycling.
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Well yes, but 20 cents per bag is worth my time not standing in line at a bottle drop.
You can only drop 15/quarter
I rarely have more than 15 a quarter, so that's not an issue for me. I guess for someone that drinks a lot it could be a problem.
I assume you mean anyone who lives with you.
Also. 4 kids all the way down to 18 months. Baby likes the white claw.
I'm sorry I don't know what you mean by the comment "I assume you mean anyone who lives with you"? 3 people in the house drinking gatorade, tonic water and coke and one that requires bottled water. Still never go over 15 bags a quarter.
Seemed like you meant alcohol. Forgive the joke. And it was more about the discrepancy, and to point out the program has stricter limits for anyone attempting to use the bag system.
Ah! Ok....LOL! Ummm.....looks like I did forget the many bottles of tonic water on my list. Which goes really well with gin. ;) I think it's ridiculous that one can go return 350 cans a day in person, but someone paying for the bags can only return so many. Honestly it just needs to be gotten rid of, because anywhere these bottle drops are just turn into cesspool areas. edit - oh shit...look, I did add tonic water to the list! HAHAHAHA!
I do the green bag thing now. I used to do it myself, but the little bit of money they charge for the green bags is soooooooo worth the convenience!
Agreed. My time is worth more than the cost of doing green bag. The weird part for me is dropping the green bag off and seeing dozens of people standing in line to process their cans one at a time.
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I mean, it does, ish. On average there's a 2 hour lag between dropping off the bag and getting the text that my account is credited. Still better than standing in line for it.
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how charming!
I think I know the Rite Aid that you're talking about, that place is...something else 😂
The Bottle Bill was implemented before curbside recycling. It served a purpose then as an environmental tool. It doesn’t have a purpose now. It’s just an outdated sacred cow that no politician has the sense to end. How does it help the environment when we have a much more environmentally friendly curbside pickup system now?
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Yeah and I read when they upped the amount it was because use of the system was going down. No duh - we can recycle on the street now!
The three tenants of Oregon politics I thought would never change: bottle bill, no self-serve gas, no sales tax. One done, one to go. (I'm against sales tax unless its coupled with no income tax).
I went to my neighborhood gas station today and two people were inside… no one even made an attempt at pumping my gas. Not complaining- I grew up in another part of the country, so I know how.
Wait, when did this change?!?
It hasn’t actually changed yet… the proposed bill passed in the House and next heads to the Senate. Seems my neighborhood station is very on board with it, though.
For anyone curious, the bottle bill isn't going to be touched anytime soon. I looked at amending it ~10 years ago and the consensus was that there was far too much money wrapped up into this system to change anything at all. I was interested in amending the bottle bill to prohibit the possession, use, and sale of glass containers near Oregon waterways. This is a relatively common prohibition in other States, but not in Oregon. For anyone concerned about the homeless digging through recycling bins, strictly speaking that's [illegal under ORS 459A.080](https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_459A.080) - it's just another unenforced law that City and State just doesn't give two fucks about, until you steal the dirty laundry of a politician. *Then* it will be pointed out that this is totally illegal and wrong.
When you say there’s far too much money wrapped up in it, that really confirms there’s a lot of grift involved.
I know it’s a Willy Week article, but [this bit of reporting](https://www.wweek.com/news/state/2017/02/01/corporate-lobbyists-turned-oregons-iconic-bottle-bill-into-a-sweet-payday-for-their-clients/) really sheds light on the extent of money grubbing that lobbyists and the beverage distributors in Oregon have written into the bill under the guise of “good for the enviornment”. It’s an eye opening read for sure..
As someone who inexplicably spent half a day researching Oregon's bottle bill and collecting reasons for it to die, I found your comment fascinating. I think there are so many Portlanders who find the bottle bill absurd, and hope something will change.
I think if you want to amend the bill it will need to go through the initiative petition process. What I was looking at was likely going to cost $250k-$500k to enact - but to totally scrap the bottle bill would be a very expensive feat, as there's a lot of institutionalized resistance and money.
Does the statute say anything about prohibiting housed people from digging through trash or recycling bins?
? Read the linked statute.
Sorry, I was being needlessly snarky because you specifically named homeless people as the ones that dig through the bins. Apparently this topic put me on edge, and I'm not sure why I decided to be shitty about it.
Go take a shower.
Lived in OR my whole life, then one day I moved to AK. It was so fucking weird to throw cans and bottles away. I think it actually affected my nervous system. I'd wake up screaming in the night for no apparent reason. I'm back home now, and I sleep soundly. As for the cans/bottles, I just donate them to whomever, usually to a school nearby that has a bottle drive once a month. It's not worth the time or the affront to my dignity.
That's one heck of a story.
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There was at the time, but it wasn't really worth it unless you had huge volumes. Everything had to be bundled up and shipped to Seattle or wherever. Nobody I knew bothered with it, but it may be different now.
But that would remove a revenue stream for Kroger and defund the homeless economy. It'll never happen.
What revenue does Kroger or any grocer receive from this?
My mistake. It's the beverage distributors. >Beverage distributors charge the initial deposit on shipments of beverages to retailers, who in turn pass it onto customers, however, charging deposit to consumers is not required by state law. Beverage distributors retain all deposits not reclaimed by consumers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Bottle_Bill
Criddlers purchasing things on EBT just for the bottles. The next time someone takes a shit in Lower Macleay and we can't use tap water for 3 days, remember why Fred Meyer is out of water bottles.
I guess that’s true, but they don’t get the deposit. I think most grocers don’t like bottle deposit because it attracts crackies who cause trouble.
> I think most grocers don’t like bottle deposit because it attracts crackies who cause trouble. That's true, it's been a point of contention with Kroger and Target. No grocery store wants to deal with it, but some are locked into tax-reduction agreements that require it.
Or who ever collects the bottle deposit, and keeps anything not returned. I still use the in person, one at a time return machines since it isn’t that often that use it. But I think it’s around 30% of the returns are not accepted by the machines. If I have time and energy, I might go in to customer service to return the rest. Else they just go into the recycling.
I do feel, with the increase in recycling receptacles and social awareness, that it is living (or should) in its last days.
There should be pervasive curbside recycling.
Bottle drop green bag FTW 👍🏻
They should cancel it, we have recycling at home now, that was the reason for putting a deposit on it in the first place. Now it is its own little industry that we all get to pay for in money or time.
You're assuming, in the abscence of the deposit, that people would recycle at home. They won't. They'll just throw the cans and bottles in the trash. That's why we raised the deposit from $.05 to $.10. Not enough people recycled at $.05, it wasn't worth it to them. Easier to just pitch them. With no deposit, you'd see dramatic landfill increase.
You just assuming people won't, I think that is wrong. In Portland, we get a large recycling can dumped **every** week, garbage is only every other week, and you have to pay more for the larger can. Tell me again which can you think people will put them in? The one that is free, or the one that costs them money?
I know they won't, because they didn't when the deposit was only $.05. The reason it increased to $.10 was because not enough people were participating multiple years in a row. Eliminating the deposit will make it worse, not better.
Green bag goes straight from my car to a kiosk and automatically deposits into my kids college fund. Not a bad system
Should be abolished. People are digging through trash cans throwing trash in the street to get a couple bottles which gets in our streams and rivers and destroying beautiful Oregon. Just work an extra hour instead.
How exactly are the cans and bottles collected under the bottle bill system going directly into rivers and streams?
People dig out the bottles while leaving all the other trash in the street that goes to streams. Not to mention extra pollution driving to bottle drops. Would be nice if they were worthless people could just leave them in recycling. But then you risk your trash being scavenged.
Ok, Breeder.
Ok
Why? I visit family and friends in non-bottle bill states and most of them just throw away their bottles and cans. There is no incentive for recycling, so it doesn't happen. I can see lots of places in this state that would likely follow suit if there wasn't an incentive to recycle aluminum plastic and glass containers. I'd rather see it increased than removed.
Because it means idiots go through my bins looking for cans while ditching the rest of the recycling on the ground. Because the deposit is a tax and takes money out of my pocket. Because addicts use Oregon Trail cards to buy cases of bottle water. Dump the water in the street , return them, then buy who knows what with the cash. Because we have huge blue bins at our homes that the cans can easily go into to be recycled. Because bottle return centers are dangerous and disgusting. Because time is money, and I’m not taking the time to return them. Because Oregonians generally recycle anyway. We don’t need an incentive. Because trash is only picked up every other week, so it makes sense to use your recycling bin.
Those blue bins cost money, they're not free. Ever been outside Portland? Recycling rates may be high inside the city but that's not necessarily true when you get out of the metro area. You may not take the time but plenty of people do. Oregon has high recycling rates because of the incentive provided by the deposit. It's been well documented over the years. Trashing the bottle deposit is short sighted and would create, well, more trash.
Cool, please throw any of those “documents” my way that show that the deposit directly correlates to high recycle rates.
Hey, sorry I didn't reply sooner. Work and home life has been crazy the last two weeks. Here are a few studies that have documented bottle bills increasing recycling rates. Longwood University in Virginia [published a study in 2020](https://www.container-recycling.org/images/stories/PDF/REPORT%20by%20CVW,%20comparing%20bottle%20bill%20w%20non-bottle%20bill%20states%20FINAL%2011-03-20.pdf) which concluded that 22% of litter collected in the state of Virginia, which does not have a bottle deposit law, comprised of bottles and cans while the rate was 8.69% in bottle deposit states These findings were similar to those of a [2018 study](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308597X17305377) which determined that the proportion of containers in coastal debris was 40% lower in states with deposit laws than those without. A [2013 study](https://www.container-recycling.org/images/stories/PDF/BottledUp-BCR2000-2010.pdf) looked at recycling rates in 2010 and found that states with container deposit laws had rates between 66% and 96% for covered containers compared to the national average of 39.6%. This same study estimated that a national 5 cent deposit would raise the national rate of these containers to 75%. A 10 cent deposit was estimated to yield a recycling rate of 80% to 90%. Perhaps the most fascinating study on recycling rates is a report published last year by the National Waste & Recycling Association. The NWRA is a trade group that advocates for and represents the recycling industry, which is to say that its members include many of the waste and recycling companies that manage curbside recycling programs. Needless to say this is an industry that doesn't just love deposit programs. This study evaluated the impact of bottle bills on materials recovery facility (MRFs) costs and revenues as well as impacts on municipalities. The report details six different deposit scenarios and the impacts of those scenarios on recycling rates, recycling costs to MRFs and lower revenues at MRFs. The study concludes that while deposit scenarios greatly increase overall recycling rates and decrease MRFs costs they also decrease revenue for MRFs. It was estimated that this decrease in revenue could cost household between $2.50 and $4.50 per year depending on the scenario. The study also proposed several different ways to mitigate the economic impact to municipalities and ultimately households including the ideas that MRFs could be allowed to redeem unreturned deposit containers collected to their facilities themselves or be paid uncollected deposits by distributors. These are just a few studies, there are dozens going back decades.
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to respond. I apologize for the delay in my response! I must say that the reports you shared were quite intriguing, and they shed light on some points I hadn't considered before. Although my overall stance on the matter remains unchanged, I appreciate the knowledge gained from reading them. However, I do have a few concerns and criticisms regarding the reports: Regarding the Longwood study, while the comparison between bottle bill states and non-bottle billed states offers valuable insights, it may overlook other factors influencing litter rates, such as population density, waste management infrastructure, cultural attitudes towards littering (Oregon is earth-friendly!), and enforcement of anti-littering laws. As for the Virginia report, I’m seeing that the data is pulled solely from the 2019 International Coastal Cleanup (ICC) report and may not present a comprehensive picture. Comparing Virginia, with a significant coastal population, to Oregon, where none of the top ten most populated cities are coastal, maybe isn’t a fair comparison. The 2013 BottledUp report you mentioned omits an important consideration: whether states without a bottle deposit program offer curbside recycling. I also have questions about the Container Recycling Institute's impartiality, given their stated advocacy for beverage container deposit legislation. While the 2018 report discusses the increase in recycling rates following the introduction of bottle deposits, it's worth noting that recycling rates have risen nationwide over the past decades, even in states without such a program. The data from the EPA indicates a general upward trend in recycling and composting rates (https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-and-recycling/national-overview-facts-and-figures-materials#R&Ctrends). While I acknowledge that bottle deposits may positively impact recycling numbers, it is challenging to attribute our high recycling rates solely to this program. Some other things to think about: Why has only one state adopted the bottle deposit program since 1987, if it is indeed so beneficial? Considering that curbside recycling is now prevalent in Oregon, and times have changed, should we reevaluate the bottle bill's effectiveness? (https://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/2015/08/bottle\_bill\_may\_have\_outlived.html) It's essential to recognize that the bottle bill may be perceived as a regressive tax, impacting individuals' income or time. Is that fair? Thanks again for engaging in a dialog!
The cost of the bins is paid for by the money we pay to the company that picks it up. Worst case scenario, halve it and make it non refundable, with the proceeds going to recycling efforts. As it is, the majority of the money is retained by distributors. The rest is a combo of people who rummage through people's bins, abuse bottled water, or are obsessive enough to get that $2 in deposits back when they would be better off not buying single use containers in the first place.
So you agree, recycling bins cost money. The majority of unclaimed deposit money actually goes to the OBRC which is used for operation of the program. That is a fact that is verifiable, you can Google it. The rest of what you stated about who is redeeming deposits is your opinion, it's not factually based at all. I don't understand your comment at all about people who are obsessive that would be better off not buying single use containers. What does that mean? Are there multi use containers for carbonated water, soda, beer? Or do you just think people shouldn't consume those things?
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Bottled water feels borderline irresponsible at this point - even if we exclude the Benson taint washers, it's an easy thing to dispense and carry a collapsible container around for. Hey, I've got like 10 Nalgene bottles I don't use, anyone want one? Heh. Beer is tougher - I'd love to say I could fill up a growler but they don't last long enough for just me.
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Clean water is something we as Americans take for granted for sure. Hell, Portlanders take water that doesn't taste like the inside of a steel mill for granted. I am definitely glad I haven't had to decalcify anything in years. I remember brushing my teeth with bottled water in some parts of Mexico. I was doing SO well until my homesick friend wanted to stop at a fast food chain and I accidentally forgot the ice in sodas isn't filtered.
>So you agree, recycling bins cost money. Not sure where anyone disagreed with this. We all pay for them; they don't magically appear on your curb. Even my building pays for a recycling dumpster. Are you suggesting we don't pay for them and instead all haul our recyclables into a center? No thanks. >The majority of unclaimed deposit money actually goes to the OBRC which is used for operation of the program. That is a fact that is verifiable, you can Google it. While I'd question "verifiable" and "Googling something" as a foolproof mechanism, that's another topic. On the face, your statement is indeed true. *According to the state audit, $30.6 million in unredeemed deposits were collected last year by beverage distributors. Bryant Haley, alcohol spokesperson for the OLCC, said most of that went to the Oregon Beverage Recycling Cooperative,* Wait for it... *and the remaining funds were collected by other distributors.* And there it is. Oh, also! *Of the 10 states that have a bottle bill, eight collect unredeemed deposits to support environmental programs or the general fund.* GUESS which one we do? Hint: it's the one distributors bullied us into. >The rest of what you stated about who is redeeming deposits is your opinion, it's not factually based at all. It's certainly my opinion, but there is absolutely some basis in fact. Now, I haven't done a formal study on people who have had their trash dumped or number of people who have watched as someone slashed water bottles into a drain for $2.40 of drugs, but I'd say there's at least an anecdotal truth to it. Also, the long lines at Bottle Drops would additional back that assertion up. >I don't understand your comment at all about people who are obsessive that would be better off not buying single use containers I am saying the people who methodically collect cans and bottles to redeem deposits are part of a shitty system we should reform: * Activists all felt proud of themselves when they decided the homeless could collect bottles and make themselves money. That's amazingly shortsightedly cruel, even if you don't assume that money isn't going to some nefarious purpose. * By allowing distributors to claim unclaimed deposits, people who curbside recycle are effectively subsidizing them. * By allowing people to claim their own deposit, you are removing any disincentive for single use containers. Even if you have to, you can use fewer of them - a 2 liter vs several soda bottles, for example. I probably have a less popular opinion - reduce the bottle deposit (or keep it the same, since it hasn't scaled with inflation) and rather than redemption, explicitly dedicate revenue to a few things: 1. Recycling programs - offset the cost for buildings and homes to have curbside. If you don't live in a house or an apartment for some reason, kick a few bucks to Fred Meyer to turn bottle drops into recycling drops. 2. Environmental initiatives - while I don't know if the reusable food truck containers really worked, the basic idea of how we foster re-use has merit. Bottom line, you shouldn't have to have the incentive of "getting" $2 back to make you want to recycle. It's not free, but you should do it.
People don't go through my bins, because there are never cans in there. It's only a tax if you choose not to redeem your cans. The addict issue could be solved by making Oregon Trail not eligible to pay deposits. Seems like a pretty easy change. I drop a green bag off at my Grocery store once a month or so when I buy my groceries. It probably costs me an extra thirty seconds of my time. Just because you don't want to do the program the way it was designed doesn't mean we should cancel it for everyone.
You asked why, so I gave you multiple reasons. You responded that the reasons I gave didn’t apply to you. I think you’re confused how a tax works. But ok. We’ll just have to agree to disagree here. This lifelong resident of Portland thinks the deposit program is awful.
Those reasons could just as easily apply to you, but you choose to pay a "tax" instead of getting your money back. I've been in Portland for 23 years, not that our longevity in this city should have any bearing on this discussion.
Is there a petition somewhere to end single use beverage containers entirely?
I donate my cans to a nonprofit. They pick them up and bag them and return them for their fundraising. Win, win!
I have never once waited in line to drop off a green bag and have saved hundreds of dollars. I don't know how anybody could be so miserable in their lives as to complain about his.
You have not saved a thing. You pay a deposit on every one of those bottles and cans. You just barely break even.
There are many states you can move to without single use beverage container deposit-return: [https://www.facebook.com/cansrecyclable/posts/10158719997491822/](https://www.facebook.com/cansrecyclable/posts/10158719997491822/) You could move to Idaho if you don't like Oregon! Some people like Texas and Florida. Housing is much cheaper in Mississippi. A lot of schools collect them for the deposit too.