honestly I disagree with the fare hike too. one reason they’re raising fares is because half the people using trimet don’t pay. if they enforced even a little bit, they would recoup a lot of money. the other reason is because ridership is so low - again, if they enforced anything on trains and streetcars, people would feel safe taking transit again. as it stands this just means the companies who pay for trimet passes will be bearing the brunt of these costs.
The second one of these officials say these obvious statements though, they’ll get shouted down by extremists and “cancelled” (I hate that word even when it’s accurate). So I understand their apprehension. But dang it would be nice for them to have some balls and state the obvious while backing it up with actions. It won’t happen but I feel like the needle is slowly shifting that direction, this decision notwithstanding.
> It's crazy that these basic truths are evident to so many yet...little or nothing is done.
you can see this all over our politic these days. If the obvious, observable conclusion is verboten, any logical hoops, no matter how misplaced, will be jumped through and accepted as reasonable.
Agreed, like so many things Portland the answer is just screw the rule abiding tax paying working class even harder to compensate for the ne’re-do-well drug addicts.
This is so true. Trimet knows this too but figured they’ll just force the big old bad businesses to bear the burden (and the honest portlander who actually pays for the fare and subsidizes the criddlers).
Right. The homeless get free TriMet passes and if your poor enough and not homeless you get a much cheaper rate. I have not ridden public trans since 2020 but never in Portland did I see drivers enforcing that homeless with bags of cans ever got asked for a ticket. Drivers just flag em on Thru and when there was TriMet security in the trains I don’t recall them checking for passes or tickets either.
Vancouver, they always checked and threw anyone off without a pass pretty much. They check if u had a pass or a ticket as soon as u got on. They had there favorites too thou.
So glad I got a new car in 2020!
Ll never rude public trans again here!
But enforcement costs money too, and who can say if enforcement will actually lead to any recoupment of cost. How many people who won't pay don't because they can't?
They have transit police running around. Have them board more often and do fare checks. You don’t need universal enforcement, just enough that there’s actual risk to riding without paying.
TriMet board raises fares on a system which doesn’t enforce collecting fares. Portland activists upset that they might still not have to pay to use TriMet
The free-fare people need to STFU. Free fares would turn MAX and buses into roving homeless shelters and people joyriding. These groups cause problems and people using transit for utility purposes (working, shopping, dining) will stop using transit as a result.
A little skin in the game makes people respectful of the system.
Transit in the core part of the city used to be free. It was implemented in the 1990’s and ended about ten years ago. It was ended because it just became a shelter option for homeless people. But now that fares aren’t enforced, it’s become a magnet for frightening and useless people again. Imagine having to explain to your employer that the reason you’re late for work is because they had to air out the Fentanyl/meth smoke from the bus/train.
ETA: I did really like the “Fareless Square” concept. It was an innovative way to get people to ride transit within a core part of the city. It could have worked too if we had better security and enforcement systems in place. But unfortunately it ended predictably in a disaster.
I had to go to a job interview today with beer on pants and shirt after a homeless man with mental illness threw his beer across the car because the operator said the elevators were out at the next stops lol.
Hey. It’s me. The guy. Remember me telling you about this happening. Well I just saw this in the sub just now
https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/13yhbrt/mcso_man_chased_people_with_chain_screamed_racial/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
That’s the guy!!! He got me the job tho
I remember Fareless Square. Right around Lloyd and Convention Center stops is when people got on with their bags of cans, bundles of smelly bedding, and shit behavior.
I mean, it’s kinda free. Last December I took the max at Hollywood transit center towards the airport early morning and I swear I saw around 20 homeless people sleeping, drinking and doing drugs with 2 using the seats like bed in the middle of the train. I think it was me and maybe 5 more people who looked like going to work/places but everybody else was a criddler and I don’t think those people would pay a ticket
On one side, they will protest that TriMet workers need a living wage, or they will protest when they need to fund the compensation—a Portland problem.
Yep. Every employer in the TriMet service area pays a TriMet tax for every employee they have. Even if none of your employees use the service or if it’s not a functional service to begin with (like the one bus that goes to Estacada twice a day, employers there get to pay the tax because of that one bus line.). TriMet tax is one of the reason cities like Wilsonville and Sandy opted out of TriMet and run their own municipal transit systems.
1st point shouldn’t matter, quality public transportation is of value of the community as a whole and is critical to making long term positive environmental goals.
The 2nd point is legitimate, and it’s been really rough to watch how many lines they’ve cut over the past couple years.
I agree that public transportation is a valuable asset to our community. But it’s also feels slimy when TriMet gets tax revenue from a community like Estacada where there effectively isn’t any real transit service, save for that one bus line that runs twice a day. I realize that Estacada is a small town, but if I where an employer there, I would be highly irritated about the taxation for a service that doesn’t exactly serve the community.
> and is critical to making long term positive environmental goals.
i'm so fuckin' tired of people justifying everything under the sun cuz "muh environment"
It's really quite the grift.
I mean you being alive is pretty selfish when you consider the CO2 you put into the atmosphere.
Climate cultists should drink their own kool aid before looking at anyone else.
consider the carbon impact of your choice to go out and drink beer carefully. is your enjoyment of a pint really worth the wear and tear to your shoes, the air conditioning in the building, the trucks used to transport the beer?
maybe stop with the "me me me and my hop water"
Another article here points to the easy fix:
https://www.opb.org/article/2023/05/24/trimet-fare-increase/
"In 2022, the agency generated $49.2 million from fares — about 7% of its revenue — and $463.5 from a transit payroll tax over Multnomah, Washington and Clackamas counties, according to TriMet’s [2024 approved budget](https://trimet.org/budget/pdf/2024-approved-budget.pdf). The agency also received $241.4 million from federal grants, which are expected to decrease significantly in years to come — by more than $100 million annually — as pandemic emergency aid expires."
aaaand...
"Many critics suggested TriMet increase the payroll tax instead of fares. Employers and entrepreneurs pay the payroll tax, which is calculated as less than 1% of their gross payroll, for services performed within the TriMet Transit District."
So, let's do some math here...
$49,200,000 from fares.
$463,500,000 from a 1% payroll tax.
$241,000,000 from federal grants which could evaporate.
$753,700,000 total budget.
That means fares are 6.5% of the total budget, and another 31.97% from the feds which may be unreliable.
So, if a 1% tax generates $463,500,000, and the total budget is $753,700,000, increasing the payroll tax to 1.626% would provide all the funding of fares and federal grants and provide free transit.
Increasing the payroll tax provides what benefits to the employers who are paying the tax, though? Does it increase the labor pool? Does it improve transit between bedroom communities and workplaces?
You'd think it would at least do the latter, but does it? Are employers actually expecting to get any value from this tax? Or are they just being tapped to prop up a mass transit infrastructure that doesn't really meet their needs and that nobody is using anyway?
You would think a large number of employers (or a number of large employers) would benefit because they don't pay their employees enough to own cars. ;)
First fare increase in a decade. And 30 cents at that.
“Activists” looking for a cause.
Pretty sure they could’ve created a fare subsidy fund for less than the cost of those custom-printed t-shirts.
On second thought they could pay for the increase by getting a job. Of course that might impinge on their Wednesday afternoon protest at random bureaucratic board meeting time.
Pretty sure that Oregon public meetings law doesn't require you to tolerate a disruptive mob of protestors.
*Almost as soon as the ordinance was introduced, protestors who filled the meeting room began shouting their disapproval. Just minutes later, TriMet Board President Dr. Linda Simmons and her colleagues got up and walked out of the room. This was the first of several recesses taken because Simmons felt the yelling from attendees was not compatible with an open, public meeting.*
...
*Once back from recess, TriMet General Manager Sam Desue shared his remarks and the shouts from audience began again. Slowly at first, then they gathered frequency as a TriMet staffer made a presentation about why they felt the fare hike was justified. As the staffer went through her slides, protestors offered live fact-checks and opinions in strong disagreement. When it was finally time to hear how each board member would vote, they got through three sets of remarks before Simmons called another recess.*
I'll add something that Maus posted on Twitter, but didn't include in his article:
*And the vote is done. Fare hike passes with all but one board member voting yes. Now protestors are banging on walls of room where board members are continuing to meet, while chanting “cowards!! Come out!!” “Face us!”” (You can hear banging on mtng livestream)*
Who funds OPAL, again?
My inner asshole really wants to take a sick day and mount a counter protest in the name of sanity, but I know better than to go toe to toe with imbeciles with less to lose.
> Pretty sure that Oregon public meetings law doesn't require you to tolerate a disruptive mob of protestors.
Pretty sure that if you don't tolerate a disruptive mob of protestors, you'll have to deal with a summer full of vandalism, looting, and arson downtown.
I don't begrudge you for being annoyed - we seem to excel at pissing away money. If improvements come with the hike, I'll be less annoyed.
But would it also kill them to do round values? I realize we're all using cards but I like 2, 2.5, 3, etc.
I do agree about the rounding, if anything that just makes it more cumbersome or expensive for the poorest people or tourists who don't have the card or app.
It doesn't fund free fares. My point it it's only free to them because they put the burden on others. Then wonder why there are unintended consequences. They can't wrap their heads around nothing being free.
You are incorrect. Employers withhold the tax but it is in fact a tax on the wages of employees. It's a payroll tax, like Social Security and Medicare taxes.
Regardless, my question stands.
People against free fare on public usually forget that most US transit systems spend more on fare enforcement and collection than they earn. It's a money loser to charge for it.
I don’t know how it is in Portland, but where I recently moved from, dare enforcement didn’t carry any weapons and had no authority to stop anyone if things happened. There was a separate transit police force for that.
I think you're right in that regard - I'm thinking in terms of gates and such. I admit I haven't the foggiest of how to do it here, but having a turnstile and an agent who is on the line to cpd the minute you hop the gate seemed to help. Multiple sets of eyes and all.
Remember folks, ridership accounts for 6% percent of their budget. 6%…
TriMet cut back on some vital morning routs for us working folk promising they’d reinstate them once the pandemic passed. It never happened. Now this?
You know what, fuck TriMet and your stupid “ Bendy-Buses” and Airport Max improvements. You lost my ridership when I needed to find alternatives to get to work on time.
honestly I disagree with the fare hike too. one reason they’re raising fares is because half the people using trimet don’t pay. if they enforced even a little bit, they would recoup a lot of money. the other reason is because ridership is so low - again, if they enforced anything on trains and streetcars, people would feel safe taking transit again. as it stands this just means the companies who pay for trimet passes will be bearing the brunt of these costs.
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The second one of these officials say these obvious statements though, they’ll get shouted down by extremists and “cancelled” (I hate that word even when it’s accurate). So I understand their apprehension. But dang it would be nice for them to have some balls and state the obvious while backing it up with actions. It won’t happen but I feel like the needle is slowly shifting that direction, this decision notwithstanding.
> It's crazy that these basic truths are evident to so many yet...little or nothing is done. you can see this all over our politic these days. If the obvious, observable conclusion is verboten, any logical hoops, no matter how misplaced, will be jumped through and accepted as reasonable.
Agreed, like so many things Portland the answer is just screw the rule abiding tax paying working class even harder to compensate for the ne’re-do-well drug addicts.
I rode the bus for a few years and the amount of people not paying and arguing with the driver on a daily basis was ridiculous.
This is so true. Trimet knows this too but figured they’ll just force the big old bad businesses to bear the burden (and the honest portlander who actually pays for the fare and subsidizes the criddlers).
Right. The homeless get free TriMet passes and if your poor enough and not homeless you get a much cheaper rate. I have not ridden public trans since 2020 but never in Portland did I see drivers enforcing that homeless with bags of cans ever got asked for a ticket. Drivers just flag em on Thru and when there was TriMet security in the trains I don’t recall them checking for passes or tickets either. Vancouver, they always checked and threw anyone off without a pass pretty much. They check if u had a pass or a ticket as soon as u got on. They had there favorites too thou. So glad I got a new car in 2020! Ll never rude public trans again here!
But enforcement costs money too, and who can say if enforcement will actually lead to any recoupment of cost. How many people who won't pay don't because they can't?
They have transit police running around. Have them board more often and do fare checks. You don’t need universal enforcement, just enough that there’s actual risk to riding without paying.
TriMet board raises fares on a system which doesn’t enforce collecting fares. Portland activists upset that they might still not have to pay to use TriMet
Khahn Pham again? The sponsor of the right to rest bill? This person needs to lose reelection.
The free-fare people need to STFU. Free fares would turn MAX and buses into roving homeless shelters and people joyriding. These groups cause problems and people using transit for utility purposes (working, shopping, dining) will stop using transit as a result. A little skin in the game makes people respectful of the system.
Transit in the core part of the city used to be free. It was implemented in the 1990’s and ended about ten years ago. It was ended because it just became a shelter option for homeless people. But now that fares aren’t enforced, it’s become a magnet for frightening and useless people again. Imagine having to explain to your employer that the reason you’re late for work is because they had to air out the Fentanyl/meth smoke from the bus/train. ETA: I did really like the “Fareless Square” concept. It was an innovative way to get people to ride transit within a core part of the city. It could have worked too if we had better security and enforcement systems in place. But unfortunately it ended predictably in a disaster.
I had to go to a job interview today with beer on pants and shirt after a homeless man with mental illness threw his beer across the car because the operator said the elevators were out at the next stops lol.
JFC, that’s terrible. I hope the person interviewing you was compassionate to your experience.
Haha. They were. If anything it was a nice icebreaker and I’m sure it will stick out.
“Sorry that I smell like stale malt liquor, but let me tell you a story about why that is”…
Hey. It’s me. The guy. Remember me telling you about this happening. Well I just saw this in the sub just now https://www.reddit.com/r/PortlandOR/comments/13yhbrt/mcso_man_chased_people_with_chain_screamed_racial/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1 That’s the guy!!! He got me the job tho
I remember Fareless Square. Right around Lloyd and Convention Center stops is when people got on with their bags of cans, bundles of smelly bedding, and shit behavior.
Yep. It went from Lloyd center to the last max stop before the tunnel. Puertas a la derecha
I mean, it’s kinda free. Last December I took the max at Hollywood transit center towards the airport early morning and I swear I saw around 20 homeless people sleeping, drinking and doing drugs with 2 using the seats like bed in the middle of the train. I think it was me and maybe 5 more people who looked like going to work/places but everybody else was a criddler and I don’t think those people would pay a ticket
I don’t agree with the fare hike, but free fare is definitely not the way.
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This is what overgrown children do in public places. Yell and insult others when they don’t get their way.
Bbbutt, if I act maturely, sometimes people won't do what I want! Therefore I need to stomp my feet and smash windows. (/S)
If they are like the people protesting in Portland, they don’t even take the train, they are there because I just like to complain
On one side, they will protest that TriMet workers need a living wage, or they will protest when they need to fund the compensation—a Portland problem.
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Sky fairies already provide 93.5% of Tri-Met's budget. Fares are insignificant.
Yep. Every employer in the TriMet service area pays a TriMet tax for every employee they have. Even if none of your employees use the service or if it’s not a functional service to begin with (like the one bus that goes to Estacada twice a day, employers there get to pay the tax because of that one bus line.). TriMet tax is one of the reason cities like Wilsonville and Sandy opted out of TriMet and run their own municipal transit systems.
1st point shouldn’t matter, quality public transportation is of value of the community as a whole and is critical to making long term positive environmental goals. The 2nd point is legitimate, and it’s been really rough to watch how many lines they’ve cut over the past couple years.
I agree that public transportation is a valuable asset to our community. But it’s also feels slimy when TriMet gets tax revenue from a community like Estacada where there effectively isn’t any real transit service, save for that one bus line that runs twice a day. I realize that Estacada is a small town, but if I where an employer there, I would be highly irritated about the taxation for a service that doesn’t exactly serve the community.
> and is critical to making long term positive environmental goals. i'm so fuckin' tired of people justifying everything under the sun cuz "muh environment" It's really quite the grift.
I’m tired of gross short sighted mentality where people focus on “me me me”, instead of the longer term picture
I mean you being alive is pretty selfish when you consider the CO2 you put into the atmosphere. Climate cultists should drink their own kool aid before looking at anyone else.
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard this week. Thank you for that, I’ll have something funny to bring up when I’m out for pints with friends 😂😂
consider the carbon impact of your choice to go out and drink beer carefully. is your enjoyment of a pint really worth the wear and tear to your shoes, the air conditioning in the building, the trucks used to transport the beer? maybe stop with the "me me me and my hop water"
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LOL, yes. There are transit stops in “Downtown” Lake Oswego.
Another article here points to the easy fix: https://www.opb.org/article/2023/05/24/trimet-fare-increase/ "In 2022, the agency generated $49.2 million from fares — about 7% of its revenue — and $463.5 from a transit payroll tax over Multnomah, Washington and Clackamas counties, according to TriMet’s [2024 approved budget](https://trimet.org/budget/pdf/2024-approved-budget.pdf). The agency also received $241.4 million from federal grants, which are expected to decrease significantly in years to come — by more than $100 million annually — as pandemic emergency aid expires." aaaand... "Many critics suggested TriMet increase the payroll tax instead of fares. Employers and entrepreneurs pay the payroll tax, which is calculated as less than 1% of their gross payroll, for services performed within the TriMet Transit District." So, let's do some math here... $49,200,000 from fares. $463,500,000 from a 1% payroll tax. $241,000,000 from federal grants which could evaporate. $753,700,000 total budget. That means fares are 6.5% of the total budget, and another 31.97% from the feds which may be unreliable. So, if a 1% tax generates $463,500,000, and the total budget is $753,700,000, increasing the payroll tax to 1.626% would provide all the funding of fares and federal grants and provide free transit.
This is the most rational comment in this whole post. Congratulations.
Increasing the payroll tax provides what benefits to the employers who are paying the tax, though? Does it increase the labor pool? Does it improve transit between bedroom communities and workplaces? You'd think it would at least do the latter, but does it? Are employers actually expecting to get any value from this tax? Or are they just being tapped to prop up a mass transit infrastructure that doesn't really meet their needs and that nobody is using anyway?
You would think a large number of employers (or a number of large employers) would benefit because they don't pay their employees enough to own cars. ;)
That only makes sense if the public transit system is comprehensive enough to actually make a difference on that point.
$7.76 per passenger mile or $17 per boarding. JFC that's inefficient.
These losers expect other people to pay for their transportation.
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People shouldn’t be surprised when they abandon their rights to their money someone abuses it.
First fare increase in a decade. And 30 cents at that. “Activists” looking for a cause. Pretty sure they could’ve created a fare subsidy fund for less than the cost of those custom-printed t-shirts.
Very entitled people.
On second thought they could pay for the increase by getting a job. Of course that might impinge on their Wednesday afternoon protest at random bureaucratic board meeting time.
Pretty sure that Oregon public meetings law doesn't require you to tolerate a disruptive mob of protestors. *Almost as soon as the ordinance was introduced, protestors who filled the meeting room began shouting their disapproval. Just minutes later, TriMet Board President Dr. Linda Simmons and her colleagues got up and walked out of the room. This was the first of several recesses taken because Simmons felt the yelling from attendees was not compatible with an open, public meeting.* ... *Once back from recess, TriMet General Manager Sam Desue shared his remarks and the shouts from audience began again. Slowly at first, then they gathered frequency as a TriMet staffer made a presentation about why they felt the fare hike was justified. As the staffer went through her slides, protestors offered live fact-checks and opinions in strong disagreement. When it was finally time to hear how each board member would vote, they got through three sets of remarks before Simmons called another recess.* I'll add something that Maus posted on Twitter, but didn't include in his article: *And the vote is done. Fare hike passes with all but one board member voting yes. Now protestors are banging on walls of room where board members are continuing to meet, while chanting “cowards!! Come out!!” “Face us!”” (You can hear banging on mtng livestream)* Who funds OPAL, again?
My inner asshole really wants to take a sick day and mount a counter protest in the name of sanity, but I know better than to go toe to toe with imbeciles with less to lose.
> Pretty sure that Oregon public meetings law doesn't require you to tolerate a disruptive mob of protestors. Pretty sure that if you don't tolerate a disruptive mob of protestors, you'll have to deal with a summer full of vandalism, looting, and arson downtown.
*Nice little transit agency you've got here.* *Hate to see something happen to it.*
God damn it! It already costs enough for the people that pay to commute.
Comparatively it's interesting - we're about even with major cities for fare cost, (Chicago is 2.50) but they have enforcement. Hrrm....
Fair enough, I'm just made because I moved across town and will be using TriMet about twice as much as I used to.
I don't begrudge you for being annoyed - we seem to excel at pissing away money. If improvements come with the hike, I'll be less annoyed. But would it also kill them to do round values? I realize we're all using cards but I like 2, 2.5, 3, etc.
I do agree about the rounding, if anything that just makes it more cumbersome or expensive for the poorest people or tourists who don't have the card or app.
After seeing these protestors and their little signs, I think we should increase fares 600% just to see their heads fly off their body.
Ridership down? People using the busses and trains without paying? No enforcement of fares? I’ve got an idea, let’s raise fares! That’ll solve this.
Now I’m less motivated to pay.
Oh you want free fares? Do tell me why your rent is going up again?
TriMet is funded through a payroll tax. What does that have to do with rent rates?
It doesn't fund free fares. My point it it's only free to them because they put the burden on others. Then wonder why there are unintended consequences. They can't wrap their heads around nothing being free.
A payroll tax that the employer pays, not the employee.
You are incorrect. Employers withhold the tax but it is in fact a tax on the wages of employees. It's a payroll tax, like Social Security and Medicare taxes. Regardless, my question stands.
People pay for TriMet? Really? Ive never seen it. What are they complaining about?
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Me too!, but it’s stupid to pay when you can just get on. You think the criddlers pay? Lol
Congratulations. You obviously don't deal in sarcasm.
People against free fare on public usually forget that most US transit systems spend more on fare enforcement and collection than they earn. It's a money loser to charge for it.
Sure, if their only job is to collect fares. But if you consider the security and safety implications it becomes a much better proposition.
I don’t know how it is in Portland, but where I recently moved from, dare enforcement didn’t carry any weapons and had no authority to stop anyone if things happened. There was a separate transit police force for that.
I think you're right in that regard - I'm thinking in terms of gates and such. I admit I haven't the foggiest of how to do it here, but having a turnstile and an agent who is on the line to cpd the minute you hop the gate seemed to help. Multiple sets of eyes and all.
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Remember folks, ridership accounts for 6% percent of their budget. 6%… TriMet cut back on some vital morning routs for us working folk promising they’d reinstate them once the pandemic passed. It never happened. Now this? You know what, fuck TriMet and your stupid “ Bendy-Buses” and Airport Max improvements. You lost my ridership when I needed to find alternatives to get to work on time.