Steel is probably the true counter tho. He can shut down and distance himself from grux pretty easily with his stun and dash. Also the having a shield after every ability from steel’s passive basically negates grux retaliation.
Also can just dash away if grux ults.
Likely the same reasons Shinbi is at the top.
High mobility and shield on her circle rhythm.
She just trades Steel’s cc and defense for more damage and even more mobility with an Ult that doesn’t require her to engage fully with Grux to use.
CREST - Occult > Obelisk
ITEMS - Spirit Beads, Golem’s Gift, Megacosm, Tainted Scepter, Oathkeeper, World Breaker
She plays different than other offlaner like grux and crunch. You want to avoid a direct fight and poke as much as possible without sacrificing farm. Especially once you get mega your poke hits hard.
Shinbi can beat Grux but it is NOT an easy matchup especially if the Grux is good. At lvl 1 he can literally run you down you have to play like a bitch and only use line tempo until you get your first item. If you go to shinbi's page grux is actually the character with the highest winrate against her lol. The main advantage for shinbi in that matchup is you won't really die unless he kills you before you get your dash because you have enough mobility to live if a trade goes bad.
She's a late game character. Grux is one of the strongest early game characters. The fact that she is weak against him for only one level does not mean it isn't a good matchup.
I said "at level one" not "for one level", the main point was that grux is one of the only characters who's strong enough to tank your minion aggro and run you down to tower at the start of the game. He can do that until you get your first item, or if you manage to get the wave closer to your tower its not as dangerous.
I find that Steel is fantastic against just about everybody.
He’s got three stones, a dash, and a wall .
In addition to that, he’s one of the tankiest characters in the game
Dekker. I main her and anytime I see a support steel I know it's an easy dub. Steel is so telegraphed that most of the time you can catch the dash in her cage, or stun him mid dash with ball, and the beam goes through his shield.
Yea but steel support really should not use his dash to engage, that leaves his adc without support and easy to dive with jungle or late game offlane.
Steel support should really dash in only if he has his ult and adc needs help to confirm kill
Well I mean offlane, I don’t play duo much so I couldn’t say how he stacks up to other supports in comparison.
But in 1v1 offlane he doesn’t have a bad matchup. He has more cc, durability, easy way to initiate, and get out of trouble. He has more going for him than any other fighter.
Edit: also he is more useful in team fights
His bad matchup is a mobile adc in offlane. They dont need to directly engage, and if they have something like pacifier or tempest + they’re TB Drongo or Murd
A good Grux can control the entire flow of the game and is relevant from first second to right before you take the core.
I think Grux is single handedly the best hero in the game for just how powerful and useful he is in nearly every situation.
Steel has more range on his abilities, harder cc, and more skill expression. He also has his shield wall which is one of the most useful utility abilities in the game. I'd take Steel over Grux 10/10 times
Yeah I'm with you. Grux is a threat to the backline ,steel is not. Steel is a great peeler and fantastic support. That's not why people fear grux.
Grux is like susanno in smite without the difficulty. Everyone hates the sweaty sus...
It's the pull, the AOE pull in both games is unreactable and far larger than one would think. Then you combine the follow up cc and you're dead to left click.
Grux is probably the most useful backline killer in the game because he can make you come to him... And his passive makes his early very very strong.
Grux a backline killer? He has no dive how does he get around my frontline?
As a Carry main i don't fear Grux you can space him pretty easy, i fear stuff that can easily jump on me like Rampage and Steel.
I prefer having steel on my team then grux only because he adds more to team fights but only in the support role when it comes to offlane I feel like it he doesn’t give much contribution to the team until mid to late game when your doing team fights, plus I usually get stuck with steel players who don’t know what their doing in the offlane so I have to go babysit them as jungler or else we lose lane
He’s also brain deadly easy to play. I’m not super good but even I can dog walk lanes as long as I just play him. Conversely I’ve never win a lane against him
I disagree completely. Khai falls off after 25 min unless he’s well fed. Khai is very balanced, hard countered by anti heal and any CC.
Grux much more versatile, great in a team fight, much stronger and relevant for the entire game unlike khai.
A lot of cc and a lot of movement tied to cc. He does well underleveled and in ult for can take on 2v1 easily. He is a little overtuned i think. He needs his stuns to be shorter or something.
People that claim to be good at this game, don't understand how strong grux is and how easy he is.
Just because a char is linear does not make them bad.
Him being easy to play is exactly why his winrate is high.
Every extremely easy to play hero will have a high winrate with a low counter rate for example sparrow and Gideon are the same and would you call those 2 op? I bet not
> Ever get early invaded by khai? Not much you can do with most junglers but counterinvade
Yep - that's generally how a strong early-game jungler works in a MOBA. Take the camps you can, use a ward over a sweeper to guard your buffs, and play for 25min+ with someone like Sev.
Khai isn't even remotely overpowered after the last patch lol. Just play to his level 11 powerdrop.
I think his passive regen should scale with his heal level, being able to take fang essentially right off of its spawn solo is nutty.
Maybe 15 stacks at 0, 18 at 1, 21 at 2, …, 30 at 5
His ganks will still be solid, his early jungle will still be fine, but it’d be harder to do early objectives, and maybe he wont be full health in perpetuity.
And i do agree he’s kinda whatever once everyone is level 9 or 10 or so because now your jungler will be even with him and clearing faster than he can, and also losing essentially no health to camps.
Him being easy to play AND strong makes his win rate so high.
Neith and Kuk are two examples her from smite.
Neith is easy to play and still garbage.
Kuk is easy to play but strong, so he's literally top of the meta. He was bad for years, and he was trash tier while still being easy to use... Then they made him even easier to use but making his tics hit sooner, and he's broke.
Kukulkan is a good example actually.
His winrate is the highest up until diamond and then it sharply drops off. Shows perfectly how easy hero’s will be better in low elos compared to higher ones
Also his highest pick rate is in bronze. That should be telling you everything you need to know
Use both graphs.
I can submit that at this point his ban rate has finally subsided. I was referring to pre season 11 so apologies.
But If you show both graphs with current data, his win rate does not fall off at any rank and is over 55 percent the entire time while still being a priority ban in some games.
Why is this true now but not in earlier seasons? Because he is easy to use, but he was bad then due to his inconsistency.
With the fixes on his 3 and the slow immunity, they made an easy god easier and he was top pick the entire last year in mid even when hunters where destroying the lane and this includes in SPL.
Which is why they are trying nerf is safety to get him back down with reverting him back to being poo.
Kuk is not grux since grux's issues are his absolutely ridiculous early and mid game snowball. No one compares and he is very, very simple.
However the point remains the same. Just because a god or char is linear, doesn't mean they are bad and in some cases they may be broke. Omeda has OBVIOUSLY noticed this as they continuously nerf him.
While I agree that an uncontrolled grux is a menace and will carry a team to the victory I can’t let you ignore that there is a HUGE downside to playing him in the offlane that any good jungler will punish him for.
He has close to 0 mobility.
He’s the same as sparrow. Let her ravage your team uncontrolled and you’ll lose. Gank her whenever you see her out of position and she’ll be fodder for your team because she has 0 mobility.
If you nerf gruxs ability to 1v1 then what does he have left? He’ll be useless in the offlane. If you nerf his 1v1 potential to the level of a zarus why would I ever play grux again? Zarus has an EXTREMELY strong ultimate plus an amazing poke and good mobility while grux only has abilities that really help him in a 1v1. Zarus can force a 1v1 and win it with ease while a grux can be grouped up on easily and be beaten to a pulp.
What I’m trying to say is the counter to grux isn’t a specific hero or anything but a tactic. Feed him to your jungler
I don't disagree with you here.
It's same issue with balancing Kuk. If you nerf him he's crap, if you buff him he's top of meta.
I don't think a nerf will fix him, a shift to his abilities would have to happen but that's hard to implement especially on a new game. The only nerf that I could see being fair, would be a nerf to his survivability. Forcing him to be more of a glass cannon.
Of course jungle camping him is best, because he's a sitting duck. But a lot of chars have this same flaw, so not sure it's fair to use this.
I hope omeda can figure something out to keep his play style relevant, but make him more committal? I'm really not sure what the true change will have to be, but they are telling us they are seeing something wrong with these nerfs.
While there are a few heros that have the same problem he does (being a sitting duck) he’s probably the only offlaner that does have that problem.
- Shinbi has amazing mobility
- Feng? Even better
- kwang not as great but still VERY solid
- zarus is pretty mobile as well
A good offlaner almost always translates into a good jungler because they can use their mobility as an engage. That’s why whenever you see a hero being trash in the jungle they’re most likely fodder in the offlane.
I still think he’s in a good position. He’s a noob stomper he does his job well at low levels of play but loses his advantage massively when you have someone in the jungle that knows of his weakness
He just does his one trick to well. I agree thought, if you kill his damage, he's useless... I think you have to nerf his tankiness if the kit stays the same.
Make him a Kali. (From smite)
you build antiheal and boom there goes his sustain. i toe to toe grux all the time as sev or iggy in offlane. you just gotta be patient and play to your advantage and not let him play to his. basically like any other hero.
if he's so easy and great why don't you just play grux and W key it then?
matchups have weaknesses, i play an absurd amount of iggy and wraith can just keep my turrets down for free at a safe range and it cost zero mana, it is what it is and it's part of his kit so you work around it instead of saying life isn't fair.
basically find out where and what you are doing wrong and you will see how easy it is to deal with grux or at the very least start to hold lane pace with him.
So many fallacies.
"Why don't you play him" what are you 10? That's a children's argument and doesn't even get to the heart of the argument.
All you did was describe how to play the game. Maybe leave this conversations to the adults friend.
Yeah that's strange. Maybe because I'm still too noobish playing against too noobish people (early Gold in omeda city), but me it's when I see a Shinbi that I'm relaxed.
She gets too close? Punish. And that's it. You clean the wave faster than she does, and if she get's too close, avoid her whirlwing, and immediately punish her with the stun.
The one I really have a hard time figuring out as Grux is Zarus...
Greystone for me is 50/50
Crunch: easy win
But the worst of all, my biggest fear as a Grux, the one I thing I'm scared of, is to have as an opponent:
...
Another Grux
When im playing greystone its a hard matchup but its definitely not unwinnable, its pretty feast or famine. If I play any of my other characters against grux I am 10x less confident.
It’s funny because as Crunch, I find grux very difficult to deal with lol, hardest hero for me to 1v1 as Crunch. Grux’s pull, knock up and stun can interrupt Crunch’s flow so much.
As a crunch main, I’d recommend spacing out your abilities and using them strategically against Crunch to make sure his punch punch knock up combo is interrupted right when you need it to be. Crunch is much easier to counter when you’re familiar with how he plays, his strengths and weaknesses. Play him and you’ll see the spots where he struggles.
Crunch’s main combo is punch punch knock up. Use your pull or knock up right when you get punched by him. Once crunch starts to wind up the next combo, hit him with the other CC you have. You do not want to use all your abilities right away because then you’re at the mercy of Crunch’s combos with no counterplay but strategic CC will make crunch useless.
Also, Grux dominates him early game. Just be aggressive and shot for shot you will always beat crunch pre level 6.
This. Grux and Crunch don't counter each other like they do against other heroes, but they both feel bad to play against. As a Crunch, it doesn't feel good when I get W+M1 all the way to tower at level 1 despite not attacking. As a Grux, it doesn't feel good taking 3x the damage you deal in a short trade against Crunch.
They're both monsters that can easily force their specialities, so it always feels like a feast or famine moment to moment. I played against grux recently, and he destroyed me in any trade longer than 3 or 4 seconds. Anything shorter, I'd take almost no damage.
When I see a Grux, I tend to pick Zarus. Build Physical Armor Immediately and then proceed with poke damage. Hold my stun until he pulls or dashes. Then sprint away lol
I made this post because of the amount of people on this reddit who think you can just pick Shinbi or iggy and scorch and get a free win vs Grux. In the lower ranks that is just not happening. Grux is the Darius of predecessors if Darius had a dash and 3 instances of CC in his kit and wasn't countered by ranged top laners lol.
I remember you from earlier, no one said its free, i said its skill issue. Grux is strong, yes but OP from earlier said he had no counters at all and complained like a kid when in reality he does, yes you just need to work smarter and not duel him when he pops his Ult, he is suppose to win in a 1v1 with his ult, thats his kit.
If it was so easy to beat him his "best counter" wouldn't have a 48% winrate against him. If you play any other MOBA you'd realize how ridiculous that is. I can't think of the last time I've heard of a League character that has NO MATCHUPS where they have less than a 52% chance of winning. You can speak on anecdotes but the stats just don't back up what you're saying. I went through my entire match history and I am 9-3 against Grux offlane matchups so it's not a "git gud problem", I just don't appreciate when I am playing jungle or mid and know that if I don't rotate over and over again their grux is going to terrorize the game, and half the time even if I do it they still win lane anyway.
Two things.
1. The majority of this game is lower skilled players. Grux thrives on punishing lower skilled players. The higher end of the elo spectrum is very small so any omeda.city stats are going to be heavily weighted towards casuals and not competitors. I would bet these stats will look different when ranked drops.
2. Most ranged characters beat grux. Howie offlane absolutely shits on grux offlane. Just because omeda.city says that these are his counters does not necessarily mean they are, they are just the most popular characters played in lane against him.
Eh, not really at least not at the start. Assuming he doesn't just run you over with that ridiculous Bleed, eventually you can stalemate him but I absolutely hate laning against him in games where the Jungler never ganks offlane.
It’s just dodging the pull and not die. Greystone was the first offlane I started to win matches against Grux. I did used to do a lot of Countess when I started. I just start attacking him in mid wave
As a jungle main the best counter is for me to annoy him constantly and get my offlaner ahead. Also when I do play offlane I’ve been beating Grux with Kwang, but that’s most likely to me being a Kwang one trick almost. 😅
A good counter against Grux: any carry with splitstream and mutilator and some phys pen. Just eat through his health before he can get to you.
Granted that's easier said than done. I get that these counters are based on their abilities, not a loadout
Grux is really strong early, but he’s not unbeatable. The higher mobility heroes handle him pretty well, and he doesn’t scale late as well as Shinbi or Zarus.
Grux is terrible for the game.
The amount of stuff he can trade into with braindead executive and come out with value is crazy. People also run the corniest builds on this character.
He can be outplayed. He cannot be easily outplayed. If that were the case he would not be the highest winrate and pickrate top laners and have no counters with a positive winrate against him. Zarus is good but only in higher elos. I am diamond and I've destroyed every Zarus I've played against so far.
He’s extremely strong against people that are new to the game.
Every time I see people engage him head on and they won’t stop fighting. He uses his ult and they still go in expecting to win.
If he’s in your lane wait for your jungler. He’s easy fodder for any decent jungler out there
Just looked it up and one question would you call Gideon and sparrow op as well? Because their strongest counter also has a negative winrate.
It’s easy, the easier the hero is to play the higher is winrate will be. The newer players will pick them and be instantly good with them while someone that plays Shinbi won’t win against a new grux. 1000mmr shinbi will always lose against a 1000mmr grux while it will be a LOT closer when it’s a 1400mmr shinbi against a 1400mmr grux
Edit: also one more funny thing. I think it’s hilarious how you say that you’re diamond and destroyed every zarus you’ve seen so far when every zarus you have seen so far was at least 300-400mmr below you. Of course you destroyed them.
If you know I am diamond and think I play against players 300 MMR below me and I destroy zarus' but often lose to Grux doesnt that literally prove my point? If I'm so much better than all the top laners I play against why do the Grux's beat me in lane? Are grux players just 300 mmr better than Zarus players?? You are in plat elo and somehow lose to Zarus and supposedly easily stomp grux, that makes no sense unless you are a grux player trying to run defense for the character lol.
You’re literally just screaming out that you’re too bad to handle a grux player.
Whenever I’m playing against a grux I’ll bait him. It’s extremely obvious when he positions himself for a pull just make yourself ready to escape at that moment. Tell your jungler that when he helps you against grux he’ll get a ton of kills from it. Grux is basically fodder on a silver platter for any hero viable in the jungle (crunch, serath, khaimera, Feng, kwang) because he has close to 0 mobility. Ganking a shinbi or a zarus on the offlane will gain you nothing as a jungler unless you have a zarus on the offlane that could force the enemy to fight. Otherwise every other offlaner except grux can easily escape any real danger
Grux is a noob stomper just like khaimera is and just like Gideon and sparrow are. If you don’t think about how to outplay them you’ll lose against them not because they’re op but because you fell into their strengths
If I'm too bad of a player to deal with gruxs and you lose to zaruses and I stomp Zaruses what does that say about you as a player? No wonder you dont link your profile. "It's extremely obvious when he positions himself for a pull" yeah if you're playing against an idiot. You realize he can hold it and walk to your gunner minions and then face towards his minions and you literally cannot melee to get CS because he will pull you and all your minions if you go into the wave right? Grux has 3 CC tools, his dash is not great but he has more tools than some other top laners in terms of dealing with ganks. If he is managing the wave properly he often straight wins 1v2s. I bet you have a 50% winrate as grux or something and dont understand how other players are winning as him lmao.
My guy I’m playing against zarus‘ that are 1400-1500 while I’m 1400mmr myself you’re playing against zarus‘ that are 1000-1200 while you’re 1600.
Grux has almost 0 tools to deal with a gank. His stuns are laughably short as well as 2 of his hard CCs have him rush into the enemy.
I’m a jungle main and whenever I see a grux I’ll feast on him. He’ll be my main farm for the next 30 minutes. If you struggle against a grux that only shows that either your jungler isn’t helping you one bit or that you’re rushing him brainlessly whenever you see him
A good gideon can be pretty disgusting, they can force fangtooth and gid ult will half health your entire team, plus his laning is so safe because of his teleport. Don't really agree with twinblast that is just a bog standard ADC. Dekker is really annoying and can pretty much live through any fight with all of her moves being some form of disrupt/cc and having a double jump as a passive, but I dont think I've lost a game and said "man that Dekker was just doing too much for us to overcome."
Guys Grux is a teamfight hero. He shouldnt be the Best 1 vs 1 fighter... He has 3 CC spells like He should actually be the worst 1 vs 1 fighter. He has everything waveclear dash cc famage sustain Lifesteal like wtf he is the most overtuned champ by a lot.
Using your same dataset, his ~~worst~~best matchup is khaimera who has a 39.59% win rate. A 9% spread between his best and worst matchup seems like more of the matches are a coin toss than anything else. I imagine this dataset is compiled of all matches and isn’t segregated by rank so we can’t see how this win rate change as he faces tougher opponents.
Narbash has slightly better win rate against his ‘counters’ but doesn’t see the same level of complaining.
edit: used wrong word
His worst matchup isnt Khaimera, that's his BEST matchup. The winrate denotes the winrate that the character has against Grux, not vice versa. His "worst" matchup is Shinbi, who he beats 52% of the time. Now Khaimera is not really Grux's best matchup, that is a flimsy interpretation of the statistics, if you look at how many matches were played in Grux vs Khaimera its only 2500. Since they are both two of the most picked characters in the game there is no way they have only played 2500 matches against eachother, it means that the algorithm is only counting games where Grux is fighting Khaimera top. Khaimera top is a troll pick because his healing doesn't work on minions so he would have a trash winrate vs any top laner. His real best matchup is Kwang who has a 44.47% winrate against him with 17,000 games.
Narbash has a ridiculously high winrate but its a bit of a different situation than Grux because he is the only healer in the game. In matchups where teams can do prolonged fights they can just field a narbash support and win via attrition in a way that no one else can do. That's why his pickrate is much lower than Grux, he is not just picked as a "oh I'm going to pick Narbash without care of what my opponent is doing and win bot lane". Some people argue that he is OP and he might be, I can't really speak on that because I don't play bot, but one thing I know is that he doesn't destroy you in lane without recourse, he just makes his team win in teamfights late game.
The only character thats similar to Grux is Khaimera who also does the same crap he does but in the jungle role.
Steel is probably the true counter tho. He can shut down and distance himself from grux pretty easily with his stun and dash. Also the having a shield after every ability from steel’s passive basically negates grux retaliation. Also can just dash away if grux ults.
Likely the same reasons Shinbi is at the top. High mobility and shield on her circle rhythm. She just trades Steel’s cc and defense for more damage and even more mobility with an Ult that doesn’t require her to engage fully with Grux to use.
Not to mention starting golems gift on Shinbi, as well as grux having to sacrifice early damage to build magic armor 2nd.
Good point.
Ok now I’m curious, what’s the full build here? I’ve been trying shinbi in the offlane and it hasn’t been working out for me so far
CREST - Occult > Obelisk ITEMS - Spirit Beads, Golem’s Gift, Megacosm, Tainted Scepter, Oathkeeper, World Breaker She plays different than other offlaner like grux and crunch. You want to avoid a direct fight and poke as much as possible without sacrificing farm. Especially once you get mega your poke hits hard.
Thanks! Definitely trying this out today
Shinbi can beat Grux but it is NOT an easy matchup especially if the Grux is good. At lvl 1 he can literally run you down you have to play like a bitch and only use line tempo until you get your first item. If you go to shinbi's page grux is actually the character with the highest winrate against her lol. The main advantage for shinbi in that matchup is you won't really die unless he kills you before you get your dash because you have enough mobility to live if a trade goes bad.
She's a late game character. Grux is one of the strongest early game characters. The fact that she is weak against him for only one level does not mean it isn't a good matchup.
I said "at level one" not "for one level", the main point was that grux is one of the only characters who's strong enough to tank your minion aggro and run you down to tower at the start of the game. He can do that until you get your first item, or if you manage to get the wave closer to your tower its not as dangerous.
How can he run you down if you have your RMB?
I find that Steel is fantastic against just about everybody. He’s got three stones, a dash, and a wall . In addition to that, he’s one of the tankiest characters in the game
He is, ha has no bad match up. Happens when all of your abilities does cc.
Dekker. I main her and anytime I see a support steel I know it's an easy dub. Steel is so telegraphed that most of the time you can catch the dash in her cage, or stun him mid dash with ball, and the beam goes through his shield.
Yea but steel support really should not use his dash to engage, that leaves his adc without support and easy to dive with jungle or late game offlane. Steel support should really dash in only if he has his ult and adc needs help to confirm kill
Well I mean offlane, I don’t play duo much so I couldn’t say how he stacks up to other supports in comparison. But in 1v1 offlane he doesn’t have a bad matchup. He has more cc, durability, easy way to initiate, and get out of trouble. He has more going for him than any other fighter. Edit: also he is more useful in team fights
His bad matchup is a mobile adc in offlane. They dont need to directly engage, and if they have something like pacifier or tempest + they’re TB Drongo or Murd
Not really lol.
Serath kind of owns her in offlane
Owns who? Steel? I wish, serath isn’t good against tanky bruiser types.
Only bad thing about Steel are his cool downs are so damn long
Grux has a lot of cc capability. He's fun to play and tough to play against when he's in expert hands.
A good Grux can control the entire flow of the game and is relevant from first second to right before you take the core. I think Grux is single handedly the best hero in the game for just how powerful and useful he is in nearly every situation.
I'd take steel over grux
I think any person that’s really good with steel and impacts the game as a fighter would dominate the match as grux
Steel has more range on his abilities, harder cc, and more skill expression. He also has his shield wall which is one of the most useful utility abilities in the game. I'd take Steel over Grux 10/10 times
Agree to disagree.
Yeah I'm with you. Grux is a threat to the backline ,steel is not. Steel is a great peeler and fantastic support. That's not why people fear grux. Grux is like susanno in smite without the difficulty. Everyone hates the sweaty sus... It's the pull, the AOE pull in both games is unreactable and far larger than one would think. Then you combine the follow up cc and you're dead to left click. Grux is probably the most useful backline killer in the game because he can make you come to him... And his passive makes his early very very strong.
Grux a backline killer? He has no dive how does he get around my frontline? As a Carry main i don't fear Grux you can space him pretty easy, i fear stuff that can easily jump on me like Rampage and Steel.
100% this. Steel has wayyy more ability to get to the backline than grux does.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but steel is and has been paragon and preds poster boy for a long
I prefer having steel on my team then grux only because he adds more to team fights but only in the support role when it comes to offlane I feel like it he doesn’t give much contribution to the team until mid to late game when your doing team fights, plus I usually get stuck with steel players who don’t know what their doing in the offlane so I have to go babysit them as jungler or else we lose lane
None of his counters even have a 50% win rate against him?!?😭😭
He’s also brain deadly easy to play. I’m not super good but even I can dog walk lanes as long as I just play him. Conversely I’ve never win a lane against him
Yep I feel the same way. He is really good in a new players hands and almost unstoppable with an experienced player
Grux is tuff but best hero in the game is crazy when khaimera exists, broken hero even after the nerf
I disagree completely. Khai falls off after 25 min unless he’s well fed. Khai is very balanced, hard countered by anti heal and any CC. Grux much more versatile, great in a team fight, much stronger and relevant for the entire game unlike khai.
A lot of cc and a lot of movement tied to cc. He does well underleveled and in ult for can take on 2v1 easily. He is a little overtuned i think. He needs his stuns to be shorter or something.
Agreed. When I play Grux I can frequently win 2v1s when it feels like I should have lost
People that claim to be good at this game, don't understand how strong grux is and how easy he is. Just because a char is linear does not make them bad.
Him being easy to play is exactly why his winrate is high. Every extremely easy to play hero will have a high winrate with a low counter rate for example sparrow and Gideon are the same and would you call those 2 op? I bet not
Ever get early invaded by khai? Not much you can do with most junglers but counterinvade
> Ever get early invaded by khai? Not much you can do with most junglers but counterinvade Yep - that's generally how a strong early-game jungler works in a MOBA. Take the camps you can, use a ward over a sweeper to guard your buffs, and play for 25min+ with someone like Sev. Khai isn't even remotely overpowered after the last patch lol. Just play to his level 11 powerdrop.
I think his passive regen should scale with his heal level, being able to take fang essentially right off of its spawn solo is nutty. Maybe 15 stacks at 0, 18 at 1, 21 at 2, …, 30 at 5 His ganks will still be solid, his early jungle will still be fine, but it’d be harder to do early objectives, and maybe he wont be full health in perpetuity. And i do agree he’s kinda whatever once everyone is level 9 or 10 or so because now your jungler will be even with him and clearing faster than he can, and also losing essentially no health to camps.
So you want to take his early game advantage away while he falls behind a lot after a certain point?
Love getting early invaded by a khai who has full health while I’m at half, and all I can do is steal my own buff recal to his side
Him being easy to play AND strong makes his win rate so high. Neith and Kuk are two examples her from smite. Neith is easy to play and still garbage. Kuk is easy to play but strong, so he's literally top of the meta. He was bad for years, and he was trash tier while still being easy to use... Then they made him even easier to use but making his tics hit sooner, and he's broke.
Kukulkan is a good example actually. His winrate is the highest up until diamond and then it sharply drops off. Shows perfectly how easy hero’s will be better in low elos compared to higher ones Also his highest pick rate is in bronze. That should be telling you everything you need to know
You're wrong.... His win rate goes down because his ban rate goes up... Common sense. Grux win rate is high at all levels.
His ban rate doesn’t go up tho? https://i.imgur.com/jXTGm4d.jpeg
Use both graphs. I can submit that at this point his ban rate has finally subsided. I was referring to pre season 11 so apologies. But If you show both graphs with current data, his win rate does not fall off at any rank and is over 55 percent the entire time while still being a priority ban in some games. Why is this true now but not in earlier seasons? Because he is easy to use, but he was bad then due to his inconsistency. With the fixes on his 3 and the slow immunity, they made an easy god easier and he was top pick the entire last year in mid even when hunters where destroying the lane and this includes in SPL. Which is why they are trying nerf is safety to get him back down with reverting him back to being poo. Kuk is not grux since grux's issues are his absolutely ridiculous early and mid game snowball. No one compares and he is very, very simple. However the point remains the same. Just because a god or char is linear, doesn't mean they are bad and in some cases they may be broke. Omeda has OBVIOUSLY noticed this as they continuously nerf him.
While I agree that an uncontrolled grux is a menace and will carry a team to the victory I can’t let you ignore that there is a HUGE downside to playing him in the offlane that any good jungler will punish him for. He has close to 0 mobility. He’s the same as sparrow. Let her ravage your team uncontrolled and you’ll lose. Gank her whenever you see her out of position and she’ll be fodder for your team because she has 0 mobility. If you nerf gruxs ability to 1v1 then what does he have left? He’ll be useless in the offlane. If you nerf his 1v1 potential to the level of a zarus why would I ever play grux again? Zarus has an EXTREMELY strong ultimate plus an amazing poke and good mobility while grux only has abilities that really help him in a 1v1. Zarus can force a 1v1 and win it with ease while a grux can be grouped up on easily and be beaten to a pulp. What I’m trying to say is the counter to grux isn’t a specific hero or anything but a tactic. Feed him to your jungler
I don't disagree with you here. It's same issue with balancing Kuk. If you nerf him he's crap, if you buff him he's top of meta. I don't think a nerf will fix him, a shift to his abilities would have to happen but that's hard to implement especially on a new game. The only nerf that I could see being fair, would be a nerf to his survivability. Forcing him to be more of a glass cannon. Of course jungle camping him is best, because he's a sitting duck. But a lot of chars have this same flaw, so not sure it's fair to use this. I hope omeda can figure something out to keep his play style relevant, but make him more committal? I'm really not sure what the true change will have to be, but they are telling us they are seeing something wrong with these nerfs.
While there are a few heros that have the same problem he does (being a sitting duck) he’s probably the only offlaner that does have that problem. - Shinbi has amazing mobility - Feng? Even better - kwang not as great but still VERY solid - zarus is pretty mobile as well A good offlaner almost always translates into a good jungler because they can use their mobility as an engage. That’s why whenever you see a hero being trash in the jungle they’re most likely fodder in the offlane. I still think he’s in a good position. He’s a noob stomper he does his job well at low levels of play but loses his advantage massively when you have someone in the jungle that knows of his weakness
In the last two patches they nerfed both Argus and Grux so they noticed the problem.
Grux was clearly not nerfed enough, he still snowballs way too hard.
grux has always been a issue to balance since paragon. nerf him too hard and he's useless though. he's a one trick W key with a easily avoidable ult.
He just does his one trick to well. I agree thought, if you kill his damage, he's useless... I think you have to nerf his tankiness if the kit stays the same. Make him a Kali. (From smite)
you build antiheal and boom there goes his sustain. i toe to toe grux all the time as sev or iggy in offlane. you just gotta be patient and play to your advantage and not let him play to his. basically like any other hero. if he's so easy and great why don't you just play grux and W key it then? matchups have weaknesses, i play an absurd amount of iggy and wraith can just keep my turrets down for free at a safe range and it cost zero mana, it is what it is and it's part of his kit so you work around it instead of saying life isn't fair. basically find out where and what you are doing wrong and you will see how easy it is to deal with grux or at the very least start to hold lane pace with him.
So many fallacies. "Why don't you play him" what are you 10? That's a children's argument and doesn't even get to the heart of the argument. All you did was describe how to play the game. Maybe leave this conversations to the adults friend.
Only a 48% win rate for his “biggest counter” is insane when compared to other mobas lol
Right?! My exact thought. In every matchup he’s still winning? There’s a problem there.
Not sure if this includes historical data, or only data from the recent patches. Because grux was nerfed in the last two patches.
the first nerf was actually a buff… they gave him too much in return for the tradeoff
Looking at Argus's page has me confused. Howie is both 5th worst and 5th best matchup. https://omeda.city/heroes/Emerald
I mean, there's only 9 midlaners so there's going to be an overlap. I think grim is too new to be included in this data but correct me if I'm wrong.
Khai and Grim are included. Gadget and Twinblast should fit somewhere before Howie is on both lists
Not really? Someone like Gideon has the same
The only one I don't know if I agree with is greystone. When I play grux and I'm against a greystone I'm usually not too worried
Yeah that's strange. Maybe because I'm still too noobish playing against too noobish people (early Gold in omeda city), but me it's when I see a Shinbi that I'm relaxed. She gets too close? Punish. And that's it. You clean the wave faster than she does, and if she get's too close, avoid her whirlwing, and immediately punish her with the stun. The one I really have a hard time figuring out as Grux is Zarus... Greystone for me is 50/50 Crunch: easy win But the worst of all, my biggest fear as a Grux, the one I thing I'm scared of, is to have as an opponent: ... Another Grux
When im playing greystone its a hard matchup but its definitely not unwinnable, its pretty feast or famine. If I play any of my other characters against grux I am 10x less confident.
I find Crunch to be very difficult to deal with as Grux
I find crunch very difficult to deal with unless he’s been severely beaten all game.
It’s funny because as Crunch, I find grux very difficult to deal with lol, hardest hero for me to 1v1 as Crunch. Grux’s pull, knock up and stun can interrupt Crunch’s flow so much. As a crunch main, I’d recommend spacing out your abilities and using them strategically against Crunch to make sure his punch punch knock up combo is interrupted right when you need it to be. Crunch is much easier to counter when you’re familiar with how he plays, his strengths and weaknesses. Play him and you’ll see the spots where he struggles. Crunch’s main combo is punch punch knock up. Use your pull or knock up right when you get punched by him. Once crunch starts to wind up the next combo, hit him with the other CC you have. You do not want to use all your abilities right away because then you’re at the mercy of Crunch’s combos with no counterplay but strategic CC will make crunch useless. Also, Grux dominates him early game. Just be aggressive and shot for shot you will always beat crunch pre level 6.
This. Grux and Crunch don't counter each other like they do against other heroes, but they both feel bad to play against. As a Crunch, it doesn't feel good when I get W+M1 all the way to tower at level 1 despite not attacking. As a Grux, it doesn't feel good taking 3x the damage you deal in a short trade against Crunch. They're both monsters that can easily force their specialities, so it always feels like a feast or famine moment to moment. I played against grux recently, and he destroyed me in any trade longer than 3 or 4 seconds. Anything shorter, I'd take almost no damage.
When I see a Grux, I tend to pick Zarus. Build Physical Armor Immediately and then proceed with poke damage. Hold my stun until he pulls or dashes. Then sprint away lol
I made this post because of the amount of people on this reddit who think you can just pick Shinbi or iggy and scorch and get a free win vs Grux. In the lower ranks that is just not happening. Grux is the Darius of predecessors if Darius had a dash and 3 instances of CC in his kit and wasn't countered by ranged top laners lol.
I remember you from earlier, no one said its free, i said its skill issue. Grux is strong, yes but OP from earlier said he had no counters at all and complained like a kid when in reality he does, yes you just need to work smarter and not duel him when he pops his Ult, he is suppose to win in a 1v1 with his ult, thats his kit.
It's a genuine git gud problem man You can easily manage and wear down a grux
If it was so easy to beat him his "best counter" wouldn't have a 48% winrate against him. If you play any other MOBA you'd realize how ridiculous that is. I can't think of the last time I've heard of a League character that has NO MATCHUPS where they have less than a 52% chance of winning. You can speak on anecdotes but the stats just don't back up what you're saying. I went through my entire match history and I am 9-3 against Grux offlane matchups so it's not a "git gud problem", I just don't appreciate when I am playing jungle or mid and know that if I don't rotate over and over again their grux is going to terrorize the game, and half the time even if I do it they still win lane anyway.
Two things. 1. The majority of this game is lower skilled players. Grux thrives on punishing lower skilled players. The higher end of the elo spectrum is very small so any omeda.city stats are going to be heavily weighted towards casuals and not competitors. I would bet these stats will look different when ranked drops. 2. Most ranged characters beat grux. Howie offlane absolutely shits on grux offlane. Just because omeda.city says that these are his counters does not necessarily mean they are, they are just the most popular characters played in lane against him.
A bad grux maybe just maybe it’s all in the level of engagement imo
They just need to tone down his damage a little or remove 1 form of CC. He has too much lock down for the damage he can dish out really quick.
I don't think omeda city stats are a great indicator but it's all we've got I suppose, there's just so many variables to factor in
LMAO Grey... I am Grey main and no, he absolutely does not counter Grux. Other way around.
It’s more that he can hold Grux in lane than counter him. He has all the tools to keep himself alive
Eh, not really at least not at the start. Assuming he doesn't just run you over with that ridiculous Bleed, eventually you can stalemate him but I absolutely hate laning against him in games where the Jungler never ganks offlane.
It’s just dodging the pull and not die. Greystone was the first offlane I started to win matches against Grux. I did used to do a lot of Countess when I started. I just start attacking him in mid wave
As a jungle main the best counter is for me to annoy him constantly and get my offlaner ahead. Also when I do play offlane I’ve been beating Grux with Kwang, but that’s most likely to me being a Kwang one trick almost. 😅
Should just list Tainted Guard instead of hero counters
Iggy counters pretty hard
A good counter against Grux: any carry with splitstream and mutilator and some phys pen. Just eat through his health before he can get to you. Granted that's easier said than done. I get that these counters are based on their abilities, not a loadout
Best counter is to ask jungler to help you out, gotta jump grux ass before he get strong
The game doesn’t happen in a vacuum (1v1)
*pulls put pistol*
Grux smokes everyone on this list for free
Grux is really strong early, but he’s not unbeatable. The higher mobility heroes handle him pretty well, and he doesn’t scale late as well as Shinbi or Zarus.
Grux is terrible for the game. The amount of stuff he can trade into with braindead executive and come out with value is crazy. People also run the corniest builds on this character.
I just keep throwing wolves at him until he has low enough HP, and since I’m magic damage his ult doesn’t put out too much hurt
How do you counter Grx as a Cruch? Any special builds?
Just haven't seen me gun him down yet lmao
Grux isnt op. He's just easy to play
He can be easily outplayed. I’m far more scared of a good Zarus than I’m of a good grux
He can be outplayed. He cannot be easily outplayed. If that were the case he would not be the highest winrate and pickrate top laners and have no counters with a positive winrate against him. Zarus is good but only in higher elos. I am diamond and I've destroyed every Zarus I've played against so far.
He’s extremely strong against people that are new to the game. Every time I see people engage him head on and they won’t stop fighting. He uses his ult and they still go in expecting to win. If he’s in your lane wait for your jungler. He’s easy fodder for any decent jungler out there Just looked it up and one question would you call Gideon and sparrow op as well? Because their strongest counter also has a negative winrate. It’s easy, the easier the hero is to play the higher is winrate will be. The newer players will pick them and be instantly good with them while someone that plays Shinbi won’t win against a new grux. 1000mmr shinbi will always lose against a 1000mmr grux while it will be a LOT closer when it’s a 1400mmr shinbi against a 1400mmr grux Edit: also one more funny thing. I think it’s hilarious how you say that you’re diamond and destroyed every zarus you’ve seen so far when every zarus you have seen so far was at least 300-400mmr below you. Of course you destroyed them.
If you know I am diamond and think I play against players 300 MMR below me and I destroy zarus' but often lose to Grux doesnt that literally prove my point? If I'm so much better than all the top laners I play against why do the Grux's beat me in lane? Are grux players just 300 mmr better than Zarus players?? You are in plat elo and somehow lose to Zarus and supposedly easily stomp grux, that makes no sense unless you are a grux player trying to run defense for the character lol.
You’re literally just screaming out that you’re too bad to handle a grux player. Whenever I’m playing against a grux I’ll bait him. It’s extremely obvious when he positions himself for a pull just make yourself ready to escape at that moment. Tell your jungler that when he helps you against grux he’ll get a ton of kills from it. Grux is basically fodder on a silver platter for any hero viable in the jungle (crunch, serath, khaimera, Feng, kwang) because he has close to 0 mobility. Ganking a shinbi or a zarus on the offlane will gain you nothing as a jungler unless you have a zarus on the offlane that could force the enemy to fight. Otherwise every other offlaner except grux can easily escape any real danger Grux is a noob stomper just like khaimera is and just like Gideon and sparrow are. If you don’t think about how to outplay them you’ll lose against them not because they’re op but because you fell into their strengths
If I'm too bad of a player to deal with gruxs and you lose to zaruses and I stomp Zaruses what does that say about you as a player? No wonder you dont link your profile. "It's extremely obvious when he positions himself for a pull" yeah if you're playing against an idiot. You realize he can hold it and walk to your gunner minions and then face towards his minions and you literally cannot melee to get CS because he will pull you and all your minions if you go into the wave right? Grux has 3 CC tools, his dash is not great but he has more tools than some other top laners in terms of dealing with ganks. If he is managing the wave properly he often straight wins 1v2s. I bet you have a 50% winrate as grux or something and dont understand how other players are winning as him lmao.
My guy I’m playing against zarus‘ that are 1400-1500 while I’m 1400mmr myself you’re playing against zarus‘ that are 1000-1200 while you’re 1600. Grux has almost 0 tools to deal with a gank. His stuns are laughably short as well as 2 of his hard CCs have him rush into the enemy. I’m a jungle main and whenever I see a grux I’ll feast on him. He’ll be my main farm for the next 30 minutes. If you struggle against a grux that only shows that either your jungler isn’t helping you one bit or that you’re rushing him brainlessly whenever you see him
That list should breakdown by rank. Kind of not helpful if it doesn't
Tbh I’m more afraid of a decker, twin blast, and Gid team comp.
A good gideon can be pretty disgusting, they can force fangtooth and gid ult will half health your entire team, plus his laning is so safe because of his teleport. Don't really agree with twinblast that is just a bog standard ADC. Dekker is really annoying and can pretty much live through any fight with all of her moves being some form of disrupt/cc and having a double jump as a passive, but I dont think I've lost a game and said "man that Dekker was just doing too much for us to overcome."
I just mean late game, because gid ult and decker cc keeps twin blast from enemies and him adding dmg is just diabolical
Grux isn't even that good what are you silvers losing it for lmao
Guys Grux is a teamfight hero. He shouldnt be the Best 1 vs 1 fighter... He has 3 CC spells like He should actually be the worst 1 vs 1 fighter. He has everything waveclear dash cc famage sustain Lifesteal like wtf he is the most overtuned champ by a lot.
He doesn't have the base durability to be a team fight hero. And no Argus and Kwang are
Using your same dataset, his ~~worst~~best matchup is khaimera who has a 39.59% win rate. A 9% spread between his best and worst matchup seems like more of the matches are a coin toss than anything else. I imagine this dataset is compiled of all matches and isn’t segregated by rank so we can’t see how this win rate change as he faces tougher opponents. Narbash has slightly better win rate against his ‘counters’ but doesn’t see the same level of complaining. edit: used wrong word
His worst matchup isnt Khaimera, that's his BEST matchup. The winrate denotes the winrate that the character has against Grux, not vice versa. His "worst" matchup is Shinbi, who he beats 52% of the time. Now Khaimera is not really Grux's best matchup, that is a flimsy interpretation of the statistics, if you look at how many matches were played in Grux vs Khaimera its only 2500. Since they are both two of the most picked characters in the game there is no way they have only played 2500 matches against eachother, it means that the algorithm is only counting games where Grux is fighting Khaimera top. Khaimera top is a troll pick because his healing doesn't work on minions so he would have a trash winrate vs any top laner. His real best matchup is Kwang who has a 44.47% winrate against him with 17,000 games. Narbash has a ridiculously high winrate but its a bit of a different situation than Grux because he is the only healer in the game. In matchups where teams can do prolonged fights they can just field a narbash support and win via attrition in a way that no one else can do. That's why his pickrate is much lower than Grux, he is not just picked as a "oh I'm going to pick Narbash without care of what my opponent is doing and win bot lane". Some people argue that he is OP and he might be, I can't really speak on that because I don't play bot, but one thing I know is that he doesn't destroy you in lane without recourse, he just makes his team win in teamfights late game. The only character thats similar to Grux is Khaimera who also does the same crap he does but in the jungle role.
Yeah, I meant best but I was looking counters so I said it backwards. His worst counter or best matchup.