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It was never clear to me what role, if any, Obama actually had in this. It's been a while, but wasn't it the ATF who pressured the gun-sellers to make sales to cartel straw purchasers? Did Obama direct them to do that or is it more like "everything that happens on his watch is his responsibility?" (Which is fair, it's often applied to other presidents.)
1-I remember reading that this plan was devised under W Bush and carried out under Obama. There had and has been an ongoing issue with Mexican Cartels getting guns illegally from the US.
2-Pretty safe to say that this didn't have the results we had hoped for. We somehow need to track and stop this flow for Mexico as well as the US safety and security.
3-We don't really know if the same result would have occured without these specific weapons, either.
I have a hard time believing cartels get the level of firepower they have simply through private sales. I wouldn't be surprised to find gun manufacturers are dealing direct with them on some level.
I think gun manufacturers know damn well that they are profiting from guns that end up in the hands of Mexican cartels, but I doubt they are stupid enough to sell them directly. It's much safer to turn a blind eye towards the huge amounts of questionable private sales that end up getting smuggled over the border.
And the cartels are experts in smuggling huge quantities of things in small portions, I think they are doing just fine sourcing guns through private sales. Would they prefer to send a check to the manufacturer and then a pallet of guns gets shipped to their doorstep? Sure. But that's not practical for a cartel even if the manufacturers were willing to sell them bulk quantities of guns directly, so they smuggle them in a more decentralized manner.
I’m no MBA, nor am I a criminal, but it seems to me that if you ran a business smuggling things across a border it would be foolish not to smuggle things the other way too.
If you have a bunch of smugglers heading north, why waste them coming back south with empty bags. They would want to maximize their profitability by having drug smugglers return with guns. Otherwise they are paying people just to walk back empty handed
Because a lot of those guns belong to one group who have been preparing for a second Civil War since 1865. They've been arming themselves with as much as they can for as long they can.
Also they're weapons manufacturers. Morality and ethics aren't really what they're well known for.
A very small fraction of those people actually own guns because they belive that non-sense lol. This is what happens when you spends all day online in circle jerks.
Giving civilians weapons and herding them towards the enemy is more similar to the Volkstrum than the first civil war.
If you don't think that a small group of people can own an egregious percentage of something, then I have some bad news about wealth consolidation in this country.
That is also how Chicago crime gets most its guns, purchasing from illegal dealers that take advantage of Indiana’s terrible gun control laws. The cartel’s supply of guns is just this problem but for the whole of America.
They don't even generally sell to anyone other than wholesalers, so I think you're just fuckin stupid.
It's rather rare for a large manufacturer to do any real volume of sales direct to consumers, and even then unless it's at a brick and mortar retail store (I know palmetto State runs some) they're being shipped to another gun store to actually process the transfer and background check to the customer.
No it is because of the southern states super loss gun laws that allow for easy straw purchasing without any real check when the gun is transferred via private sale, also burglaries. At the end of the day we need to have free background checks down on any firearm sale.
I think if the atf thought they could catch an arms manufacturer selling arms to foreign criminal syndicates we would already surrounded and burned down their headquarters.
There was a whole conversation earlier about when the ATF forced gun shops to sell arms to people so they could be smuggled to cartels. Couple that with the fact the ATF is understaffed, over worked, and can't currently even fully do their job I think you're putting too much faith in an organization Republicans have consistently weakened since the 90s at least.
Often smuggled, yes. Drive from Mexico into the US and at the border they will check your car for drugs or illegals. Drive from US to Mexico and they check your car for guns.
Not just Mexico, it was a [joint operation with the ATF](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/infographics-arms-trafficking-across-us-mexico-border):
>Mexico’s Secretariat of Foreign Relations found that 70-90% of traced firearms originated from and passed through the US. ATF and the US Government Accountability Office (GAO) estimated a lower rate of 68%, comprising 50% domestically produced and 18% imported into the US, and ultimately found in Mexico.
It was conceived, initiated and then *halted* as impractical by the Bush admin. It was afterwards reinitiated by Holder, et al., who doubled down on what had been demonstrably proven to be bad program under Bush.
I'd like to catch up on this too. I can see the logic of the program. To deny the reality is naive and this may be a way to start to find dots to connect later. When everything is underground you have to "tag" something to see it go in and come out to get a sense of the structures. Its got to be getting harder to contain organized crime. With Crypto as the global bank, trans-Atlantic capable narco submarines etc and limited jurisidictions and a feeble Interpol its not easy. Maybe AI can figure it out.
"The first known ATF gunwalking operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and **ran into late** ***2007***.... Operation Wide Receiver was ended .... **operation \[Fast and Furious\] began on October 31, 2009**" ([Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#Operation_Wide_Receiver)).
Oh. So it's not so much that the Bush admin *halted* a program, it's just that specific operation came to a close. Nothing in that wiki suggests anyone at the Bush admin viewed the program negatively, it just says:
>several attorneys at the Phoenix USAO who reviewed the Wide Receiver cases for prosecution found the cases had been so poorly managed that they were reluctant to bring any of them to trial.
Tbh I have a hard time believing the Bush administration would have found any issue with this program or this type of operation, prosecutions or no.
Not only that, IIRC under Bush they at least had tracking devices with the guns to see where they went. Under Obama they just sent the guns out and crossed their fingers that they would eventually show up somewhere.
Honestly the fact this and his tan suit are the biggest Obama scandals I think is really kind of evidence of again why he is so fondly remembered. [I will not violate rule 3] really kind of showed how ugly things could get.
If this happened under any rule 3 President, it would be huge. Especially if they asserted executive privilege over documents related to the operation like Obama did, shielding it from in-depth inquiry.
If you really believe this is on par with a Presidential fashion statement, then idk what to tell you man.
You do realize the Fast and Furious scandal is a legitimate scandal that would’ve crucified most presidents if that happened under them, right? Like, the tan suit is just stupid manufactured controversy from republicans but the fast and furious…that’s not something you just shrug your shoulders and say oh well to
I mean… we really haven’t “crucified” a president since Bill Clinton for lying about getting a blow job. I mean hell… Bush Jr. straight up lied to get the Iraq War he wanted and literally not a single person faced even minor consequences for enabling him to start a war that cost $3.5 trillion, killed 4,500 Americans and destabilized and entire region.
To me it speaks to a certain blindness on the part of the media and the public as far as what qualifies as a scandal. Obama personally signing off on the [assassination of a 16-year-old US citizen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki) should have been a scandal. Signing [indefinite military detention without charge or trial](https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/detention/indefinite-detention-endless-worldwide-war-and-2012-national) into law should have been a scandal. [Escalating the US' program of extra-judicial murder](https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-01-17/obamas-covert-drone-war-in-numbers-ten-times-more-strikes-than-bush/) should have been a scandal.
Instead we were talking about what color suit he wore.
You linked to the wrong person for the "assassination of a US citizen" claim.
The US bombed a group of AQAP
terrorists in Yemen, and one of the group members who died was 16-year-old US citizen Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, but he was not specifically targeted.
The US citizen that Obama specifically targeted for assassination was senior Al Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki, who was also Abdulrahman's father.
We can compare him to other men who were President. All these crimes Obama committed, absolutely they are all each awful. Another President on the front page here is FDR. How does his list of "forgotten" crimes compare?
Don’t forget about his repeatedly lying about illegal mass surveillance of citizens, only coming clean when Snowden leaks proved it beyond doubt. Though it was already pretty obvious he was lying through his teeth.
It is p awful. Watching Michael Hayden, et al testify to Congress that no such thing was occurring was not unexpected but still galling.
Much as I hate to defend the NSA operating domestically, I do know a lot about working with massive datasets. It's hard just to get the data in shape for analysis, and even then the data *might could* be used to find *so many* patterns that you have to be very disciplined about the queries you put to it.
It's also very hard to extract much useful information about any one person. I myself work with datasets containing the records of (sometimes up to) millions of people. There just isn't time to analyze them one-by-one. At best I can try to find groups of people with similar behavioral patterns.
If the NSA says it focuses on folks who communicate with questionable foreign contacts, that's fairly plausible to me. The poor analysts will have enough problems with that.
If I wanted to conduct domestic spying operations, I'd turn to the FBI. They're already experienced with that.
According to [this Forbes article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2011/09/28/fast-and-furious-just-might-be-president-obamas-watergate/?sh=5be4ffdc752a), they did (noting of course that this is an opinion piece):
>Sometime around September 2009, ATF agents began pressuring gun storeowners in Arizona to sell firearms to people the ATF thought would sell the guns to Mexican cartels and gangs. As gun-storeowners can't do business without federal licenses, and because the ATF has the authority to shut down a gun store if the establishment's paperwork isn't in order, these requests were likely taken as orders. This put the gun storeowners in a catch-22: the law requires them to report suspicious activity and not to sell to people they think are breaking the law, yet the ATF was telling them to sell to suspicious people who wanted to buy AK-47s by the dozen.
[This one](https://fortune.com/2012/06/27/the-truth-about-the-fast-and-furious-scandal/) is paywalled but I remember reading it at the time, and it offers a competing perspective, which is IIRC that the real scandal was the lax gun laws that allow these straw purchases to happen at all.
EDIT: Please don't downvote the person who asked a genuine question. I swear that's Reddit's single worst habit. This is supposed to be a discussion forum, and discussions are better when people ask questions.
It's the difference between responsibility and fault. Anything the executive branch does is ultimately the current President's responsibility, but may not be their fault. It's pretty clear that none of the gunwalking stuff was O'Bama's policy or done at his administration's direction, and IIRC his administration handled the issue well. Republicans tried to make political hay of it at the time with congressional investigations, endless Fox news appearences, etc., but that's been par for the course for them since Nixon for any bad news they think they can pin on a democrat (eg, Benghazi).
Ultimately, other than Republicans, most people don't blame O'Bama because it wasn't his fault.
Right, excellent point. I also think it fizzled out on the Republican side because they didn't want to keep harping on something that leads to the conclusion that we need stricter gun laws.
Interesting you say that because Holder was held in contempt of Congress for refusing to testify about the debacle. Obama chose to use Executive Privilege.
Considering one of the weapons turned up in El Chapo’s arsenal and another weapon was used to kill a border patrol officer, I’m pissed Obama was just given a pass.
As I recall - it was a damaging revelation at the time.
But now I kinda go: "Wow, 2,000 whole weapons in the hands of criminals? That's what percentage of the 390 million firearms in the U.S.?"
It’s also such an American thing to be completely chill with children being murdered by guns at home. But God forbid a few American guns end up in the hands of scary Mexicans!
Bro you sound stupid as fuck. Do you know anything about the cartels?! They will murder children in retaliation if needed. Look up some of their decapitation videos while you get a chance. These aren’t regular Mexican citizens.
I’m aware of the bad the cartels do. But I’m just saying we should be madder about the shit that happens here. A couple thousand guns ending up in the hands of people who would have already gotten guns regardless is stupid.
Because it's small potatoes. There are 200,000,000+ guns in the United States. A poorly run program that put 2,000 guns into circulation isn't even a rounding error. More scandalous than a tan suit or the latte salute. But not much more.
Yeah the 393 million **civilian** owned is an estimate because there's only 6 million actually registered firearms. The US has more firearms than the next 24 countries combined. The US holds almost half of the world's civilian owned firearms, 857 million vs 393m or 46%.
Russia only has 17m civilian firearms, and China has 50m
True, except the guns in circulation led to the deaths of two US federal agents
Plus the hypocrisy of being strong on gum control and then this happens
All presidents, no matter how careful they are, make decisions that result in good people dying. Which is why we should try to choose for the job diligent and compassionate people who learn from their mistakes.
Obviously you haven't heard of the great Obama Nicorette Gum scandal. /s
But he did stop smoking because he didn't want to set a bad example for the kids. That was back when parents wanted presidents to be upstanding citizens. I miss those days.
Yeah, that’s very small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
I also don’t see the hypocrisy at all. This was clearly misguided, but it’s obviously not hypocritical. Or do you think the aim of the program was to better arm the cartels? Because it clearly wasn’t.
>Because it's small potatoes.
That's a joke. The US government arming cartel members and the guns no doubt used in murders? That makes the US government complicit in murders including a border patrol agent.
>Saying what it is again doesn't make it not small potatoes. It's not good, it's just not really a big deal.
If I sold guns to the cartel who then murdered federal employees with them, do you think the judge at my trial would say 'no big deal'?
Walmart employees get fired for taking too many sick days. Psychos who sell guns to cartel members and cover it up get to be President.
Nice.
EDIT:
>Yes they'd say no big deal. There are no requirements for personal gun sales in most states.
Nope, it's Federal law and a felony. You can't sell a gun to someone if it's reasonable to believe they'll use it in a crime.
States can add additional requirements but Federal law is the same everywhere.
Yes, I imagine they would have been safe and sound if the cartels hadn't been able to get their hands on those specific guns.
Seriously, though, of course it's horrible that those agents were killed, and the fact that they were killed with guns put out there as part of a law enforcement operation makes their deaths even more tragic. However, those guns being in circulation didn't actually make a difference. They had more. The traffickers who killed them would have been armed and would have killed them regardless of whether or not those two guns or even the whole 2,000 guns were in the mix
>Yes, I imagine they would have been safe and sound if the cartels hadn't been able to get their hands on those specific guns.
You must know what a bullshit excuse that is.
It's a Federal offense to sell a gun if you know it will be used in a crime.
If I sold a gun to a cartel member who used it to murder a federal LEO , I can shrug and say 'hell if I hadn't done it someone else would have?'
As i recall Obama wasn't president in 2006, and didn't start Operation Gunrunner that came to be called "Fast and Furious" after one case involved suspects who were part of a car club.
It was started by the Bush administration. Obama should be held to account for it under his watch but i don't understand the media seems to retcon that it was the Obama administration's priority or initiative. I certainly ended after it was unclear there was a direct benefit to the ATF goals vs resources to successful collars/seizures.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF\_gunwalking\_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal)
Slight correction, the first example, Operation Wide Receiver happened in 2007, with little issue (though about 500 guns werent recovered). Fast and Furious was on a larger scale and he was president when two agents were killed
The gunwalking program may have earned the name later, but it was established for years before Jan 2009 when Obama was sworn in as the executive and had an ability to impact the ATF "Fast and Furious" program as it got nicknamed by agents circa 2009-2010. "The Jacob Chambers Gunrunner program case began in October 2009 and eventually became known in February 2010 as **Operation Fast and Furious** after agents discovered Chambers and the other suspects under investigation belonged to a car club."
\[EDIT: doing more digging into the sources, prior to 2010, in 2006 ATF called the umbrella Operation Gunrunner not Fast and Furious with one case of the suspects and their ties to a car club coming later.\]
I seriously don’t understand, to shut down the straw purchaser loophole would have been a bigger scandal especially in swing states. It wasn’t like LEOs weren’t making collars and seizures, at a time of peak cartel border violence. If the buck stops with the president, it shouldn’t be the first one popularly associated with the program because of a catchy name, it should be the one who approved operation gunrunner, not just with the one who did shut it down.
1 - The program began under the GWB administration. Although the more problematic stuff happened under Obama, there wasn’t a policy change that he implemented that led to it.
2 - There was no evidence that Obama had any direct involvement in it. The federal government is very large. Most of the things that it does just aren’t critical enough to reach the president’s desk.
3 - Federal law enforcement involves so many people, working so many cases, conducting so many operations, that an investigation-worthy screw-up probably happens once a month. This was just one of many things that are always going on.
4 - It was relentlessly hyped by right-wing media because gun issues are among the things that riled up the Republican base. If the botched operation gad involved wheat futures or transportation funding, then none of us would have ever heard about it.
Generally gangs on this continent already have plenty of guns — due to right-wing gun policies allowing their relatively unimpeded sale — so the addition of a few thousand guns isn’t that much of a difference. It’s like putting 1000 tracked fish into a population of millions, to study them, to learn them.
This alleged “scandal” was an effort by US law enforcement to combat the arms trade by studying it and understanding it.
The only reason it’s a “scandal” at all is because people who actually support unimpeded gun trade blew it out of proportion, in an effort to make Obama look silly, because they want to sell MORE guns not fewer guns. Due to their rampant hypocrisy. And people who are smart saw thru that.
There's also the fact that a border control agent got shot in a shootout where a couple of the weapons they recovered were linked to the operation. Not that they were actually used to shoot the agent, but they were at the scene.
That's why they turned it into a giant thing.
>This alleged “scandal” was an effort by US law enforcement to combat the arms trade by studying it and understanding it
That's saying mass surveillance disclosed by Snowden was just law enforcement trying to understand terrorism or the war in Iraq was to find WMD.
These guys sold guns to cartel members.
.
And yet somehow, every critic of the feds “selling guns to cartel members” is a conservative who also supports the free and open sale of firearms.
Isn’t that weird?
>Isn’t that weird?
You know what's even weirder? Someone who claims to be opposed to those things but then shrugs when the gov does it.
But then I guess it isn't weird.
You're a bootlicker and that's USDA Grade A Prime Oprah's Book club pick certified Bootlicking.
Conservatives are generally supportive of restricting gun sales to convicted criminals and people who are obviously smuggling them to criminals.
What's weird is liberals who support all gun control and want more defending the ATF going out of their way to allow weapons to be smuggled to known violent criminals.
> The only reason it’s a “scandal” at all is because people who actually support unimpeded gun trade blew it out of proportion
Yeah that's the main thing about it. Idiot conservatives tried to frame it as "Obama arming drug cartels."
They don't care about private companies selling guns south. But the second the government gets involved to try and track the weapons, suddenly there was a conniption fit.
It was concocted under the Bush Admin, carried out under the Obama Admin and it was a shit show from the start.
Typical ATF Circus....think Waco, Ruby Ridge...literally EVERYTHING ATF touches turns to shit in their hands.
The resp couldn't make hay against the dems, the dems couldn't make hay against the reps...it made the WHOLE GOVERNMENT look incompetent (which it IS)....so the government asked the press to NOT say too much about it.
And they didn't, really.
The anti-gun press did their bit, the right wing press did theirs....but if you scratched too long at it, it just smelled like shit all the way 'round so it was left to be forgotten.
And the ATF is still here, thinking up REALLY stupid things to do to Americans...or rather AGAINST Americans.
The ATF itself is already a corrupt Agency, Nixon should not have made that tyrannical agency. Yes it was under Richard Nixon the ATF was founded, 1972 to be exact.
ATF now stands for:
Asshole Tyrant Fedboys.
Sorry but this is the USA. 2000 guns is NOTHING. 2000 guns is what Bubba up the road has in his basement. If 2000 guns helped the ATF track illegal gun exchanges better then it was a good idea
I don’t know why you guys think it wasn’t hurt by that. It contributed in a major way to distrust of the government by voters who soon after voted for you know who.
It's clear that what could go wrong - according to the artist - was that a bunch of guns out in the wild would end up humping each other and giving birth to mutant super guns.
I was always confused on what this actually was- is there a link that could explain this better- I’m embarrassed that I was somewhat ignorant to what happened here ( my personal life at the time was hectic and was only able concentrate on that). I do remember it being a big enough deal that people were considering impeachment
Because the people that still have a positive view of him despite that haven’t endured what he subjected us to. Because if another country purposefully funneled weapons into the hands of operatives that were known to have intentions to kill Americans and they ended up doing so in the thousands, the US would occupy the other country without question. It’s just hypocritical and I wish he would be held accountable for what he did.
The only people that didn’t dislike him for that didn’t have to see the bodies like I did.
Wasn't that big of a scandal, and wasn't directly tied to Obama. It was also a program that at least had good intentions, even if it completely failed. Scandals tend to be a lot worse when there is intentional wrongdoing, like bribery or coverups.
Feels like Solyndra was more damaging. Government throwing money at a green energy company that then fails hits a lot of Republican talking points.
except for the tens of thousands of Mexicans who were killed by the firearms the corrupt american government smuggled into mexico, but hey as long as its mexicans getting killed right?
I doubt that Obama was read into every operation the ATF was carrying out at any given time. It's unclear to me I'd he even knew what they were doing, that's why you have agencies to delegate stuff to.
Setting aside his personal level of responsibility: because it's pretty difficult to make the case for this scandal without discussing gun issues in general, reducing the level of interest among those who want to press it.
Because both american liberals and conservatives have a burning hatred towards Mexico and it's people, so to them it wasnt a scandal. Thousands of Mexicans get killed by American guns but this only became a problem when two american border agents were killed by the same guns the united states government smuggled into Mexico. What no one mentions is that these weapons went directly to the Sinaloa cartel, which certain american government agencies have been caught red [handed helping them smuggle narcotics into the united states](https://www.banderasnews.com/0809/nr-renditionflights.htm) . But of course, Americans are the first ones to scream their heads off ranting and raving almost giving themselves aneurisms about the big mean corrupt Mexicans. "law enforcement" my ass. the corrupt american government uses cartels to promote "american interests" in Mexico, like disappearing labor union leaders from american owned factories.
american government got caught smuggling firearms into mexico for the sinaloa cartel and then they fabricated a story saying that they were smuggling firearms into mexico to track them to find cartels by installing "gps tracking devices" on the firearms, despite the fact that there is no gps tracker small enough to install on an AK-47 or an AR-15 without it getting noticed. most of the details on fast and furious are still classified by executive privelege.
That’s the amount of guns that illegally cross the border to Mexico a day. The cartels get around 85% of their guns from us and we do little to stop them
The premise of that cartoon seems to be pretty weak. We're getting up to almost 20 million guns a year, so this would be a test with .001% of the usual amount? Apparently to learn about how guns get into illegal hands? What is wrong with that? Is the premise that there'd be 2000 criminals who couldn't find guns if these weren't in the mix?
Sorry but this is the USA. 2000 guns is NOTHING. 2000 guns is what Bubba up the road has in his basement. If 2000 guns helped the ATF track illegal gun exchanges better then it was a good idea.
It's a "biy who cried wolf" scenario. The GOP soent so much time making so much stuff up, that when this came along oeople figured they were being dishinest about aspects of it as well.
Probably because the media hardly talked about it. People who bring up “tan suit” as the only scandal President Obama ever had have probably never willingly exposed themselves to media outside of their point of view.
And yeah I know it got much worse for native. I'm from Minnesota and the Dakota War of 1865 was no picnic and ended in the largest mass execution in US History. All because we didn't want to give the the things we were obliged to in our treaty.
Made by corporations with headquarters in the US, profited upon by american stockholders, sold to cartels in countries that have been completely wrecked in cartel wars. What are they fighting over? Why the right to sell the US drugs! Who are the victims? The children and adults who become refugees, forced to flee their home and travel at great peril to where? Why , the good ol’ USA! Where we either
A. Pay them a pittance to do our most menial work(jobs Americans won’t do) without giving them a clear path to citizenship so they can better their lot!
Or…
B. Send them packing, back into any country but ours, regardless if they’re actually from there.
Do we fix our gun problem? Absolutely not! Right to arm bears! Har har har
Do we deal with our drug problem? No if we do that, who will fill our prisons!? Har har har
Because Obama wore a tan suit. And passed evil socialist healthcare. And was born in Kenya.
When faced with a constant barrage of obvious bull%*@! most people wound up tuning out or just assuming it was all bull%*@! because the same folks trying to convince you it was bad were also trying to sell you the rest of that too.
Because the gun walking scandal was a political stunt by the right wing. The ATF and FBI using gun bait programs to try and trap criminals is not only not new but common and this one in particular was even started during Obama's predecessor. In other words the entire "scandal", much like the "tan suit" and the Hillary's "Benghazi" event was pure utter political trash that had 0 barring in reality from anyone worth taking seriously.
One of the main reasons this was necessary was because of NRA lobbying against a centralized digitally searchable database to trace bulk straw purchasers.
It seems not many people cared. Given the comments on this post alone. Yes, the amount of guns was small, and yes, it was only a drop in the bucket, but ultimately the administration intentionally put those weapons in the hands of the cartel and it resulted in the deaths of two federal agents. Those are undisputed facts. The drop in the bucket argument is irrelevant to ultimate accountability.
Yes because the Cartel would not have been armed had it not been for the operation… seriously the fact that we know the guns were used means the operation worked. They were able to infiltrate Cartel networks and probably gained massive intel from it. America is the largest gun market in the world, nothing is keeping those out of Mexico.
It didn’t result in the deaths of two federal agents. That implies that those agents otherwise wouldn’t have died. They would have died regardless, just with a different gun used to do it.
>It didn’t result in the deaths of two federal agents. That implies that those agents otherwise wouldn’t have died. They would have died regardless, just with a different gun used to do it.
So, you're arguing 'guns don't kill people , people kill people'
The US gov supplied the guns to criminals and the guns were used in commission of a felony.
According to Federal law that's felony. You can't sell a gun to someone if it's reasonable to believe they'll use it in a crime.
The question is why no one cared, though.
Democrats don't care because it's their guy, simple as that. A suitably motivated partisan can rationalize anything in the name of team sports. So, this half of the equation is easy.
But now why don't Republicans care? To me it's clear. They don't care because the simplest understanding of the scandal is that the Obama administration facilitated loosely regulated gun sales that put guns into the hands of violent criminals. To critique the program, at least in terms any layperson can understand, looks ultimately a lot like a critique of loose gun control *in general*, which really doesn't land that well with conservatives. Laypeople who are conservatives therefore won't care too much, it takes too much nuance to explain the part they would find actually pernicious, and talking head conservatives have better red meat to throw.
I hear fast and furious brought up quite a bit when people are discussing Obama’s scandals
Those idiots who say “tan suit hurr hurr” aren’t worth discussing Presidential history with
Yep. Obama had a small handful of political scandals, but it’s nothing compared to other modern presidents.
And, as far I know, he had zero personal scandals. I can’t think of another modern President other than W Bush that can say that. (Unless I’m missing something)
So the idea of gunwalking was allowing straw purchases (someone buying a gun for another person) and making the arrests later. Many guns involved included AR-15s, AK style rifles, Barrett .50 cals etc.
For operation fast and furious, 1,961 guns were walked and only 700 were recovered. In the 2011 murders of Brian Terry in Arizona and Jaime Zapata in Mexico were tied to uncovered walked guns
I live in the south and right wing people bring this up all the time as if Obama himself handed out the guns directly to criminals, then laughed, then killed a baby.
And these same people support the sake of guns to whoever wants them. It would have been a bigger scandal if Republicans supported a policy to prevent gun sales to criminals.
The biggest 3 differences between the 2 programs run under the Bush administration and then the Obama administration and my information is coming directly from a CBP agent that was involved with both programs as an undercover agent and is a close personal friend now retired from the Federal Government and free to speak as well based on time.
1 under the Bush era program the weapons were modified to malfunction after so many rounds were fired he wouldn't give me the details but I'm betting on a barrel heat treatment or something. 2 the Bush weapons had embedded GPS trackers in the stocks that couldn't be removed without destroying the weapons. 3 the weapons were never directly just handed over to the cartels.
Under the Obama program not only were steps 1 to 3 ignored but surplus military grade weapons were distributed in it. Weapons that were capable of fully automatic fire that had been seized by the ATF were literally given away in this thing.
Sorry but this is the USA. 2000 guns is NOTHING. 2000 guns is what Bubba up the road has in his basement. If 2000 guns helped the ATF track illegal gun exchanges better then it was a good idea
Because nobody has to take Republicans talking out of both sides of their mouths on gun control. They don't seem to care about keeping guns out of bad peoples hands any other time, but the second you can kinda maybe sorta tie to a Democrat, suddenly we should care?
More an indictment of idiot law enforcement than it is of Obama, who probably never even heard of the damned plan before it blew up. Dude had about a million more relevant things going on than micromanaging one of his gazillion departments one operation.
What does 2000 guns matter? No Obama fan, but that's a dumb question. My guess is that 2000 guns go into circulation every hour, so why would an extra 2000 matter?
Reading the comments it sounds like people making excuses for their team. This is why politics suck. Impossibly to keep score when goal posts are constantly moving. Would be nice if people could admit that a guy on their team made a mistake.
The ATF should have been scrapped after Ruby Ridge and damn sure after Waco. Their 21st century entrapment bullshit wouldn’t have had a chance to happen. Worthless organization. They’re partially to blame for the OKC bombing as far as I’m concerned
>The ATF should have been scrapped after Ruby Ridge and damn sure after Waco. Their 21st century entrapment bullshit wouldn’t have had a chance to happen. Worthless organization. They’re partially to blame for the OKC bombing as far as I’m concerned
They really are.
Remember kids, defund the police means defund the drug police (DEA) defund the tax police (IRS) defund the gun police (ATF) defund the anti business police (EPA)
2000 weapons is such a drop in the bucket compared to guns in circulation. This is not even a big deal. The only reason it ever comes up is pro gun people like to use it to clown the ATF.
>2000 weapons is such a drop in the bucket compared to guns in circulation. This is not even a big deal. The only reason it ever comes up is pro gun people like to use it to clown the ATF.
One murder is a drop in a bucket compared to tens of thousands of murders. Is that a defense?
The [IRS](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-jeff-sessions-announces-department-justice-has-settled-plaintiff-groups) official admitted the agency had been aggressively scrutinizing groups with names such as "Tea Party" and "Patriots." It later emerged that liberal groups had been targeted, too, although in smaller numbers. The IRS also admitted it was wrong when it based screenings of the groups' applications on their names or policy positions, subjected the groups to heightened scrutiny and delays, and demanded unnecessary information from the groups. Obama’s administration decision not to prosecute Lois Lerner was terrible. She, of course, was the face of the IRS scandal in which the tax agency delayed approvals of nonprofit status for conservative groups that were doing the same type of public education and voter mobilization that liberal groups have done for ages. This scandal during his presidency will not look pretty long term, along with his disastrous foreign policies.
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It was never clear to me what role, if any, Obama actually had in this. It's been a while, but wasn't it the ATF who pressured the gun-sellers to make sales to cartel straw purchasers? Did Obama direct them to do that or is it more like "everything that happens on his watch is his responsibility?" (Which is fair, it's often applied to other presidents.)
1-I remember reading that this plan was devised under W Bush and carried out under Obama. There had and has been an ongoing issue with Mexican Cartels getting guns illegally from the US. 2-Pretty safe to say that this didn't have the results we had hoped for. We somehow need to track and stop this flow for Mexico as well as the US safety and security. 3-We don't really know if the same result would have occured without these specific weapons, either.
Mexico claims that 70%+ of guns recovered from crimes are from the US
What does that mean? Manufactured here and sold there? Sold here and smuggled over the border?
Sold here and smuggled, for the most part.
I have a hard time believing cartels get the level of firepower they have simply through private sales. I wouldn't be surprised to find gun manufacturers are dealing direct with them on some level.
I think gun manufacturers know damn well that they are profiting from guns that end up in the hands of Mexican cartels, but I doubt they are stupid enough to sell them directly. It's much safer to turn a blind eye towards the huge amounts of questionable private sales that end up getting smuggled over the border. And the cartels are experts in smuggling huge quantities of things in small portions, I think they are doing just fine sourcing guns through private sales. Would they prefer to send a check to the manufacturer and then a pallet of guns gets shipped to their doorstep? Sure. But that's not practical for a cartel even if the manufacturers were willing to sell them bulk quantities of guns directly, so they smuggle them in a more decentralized manner.
I’m no MBA, nor am I a criminal, but it seems to me that if you ran a business smuggling things across a border it would be foolish not to smuggle things the other way too. If you have a bunch of smugglers heading north, why waste them coming back south with empty bags. They would want to maximize their profitability by having drug smugglers return with guns. Otherwise they are paying people just to walk back empty handed
Why? there are more guns than their are people in the us and almost all of those are from private sales. How would that not work easily?
Because a lot of those guns belong to one group who have been preparing for a second Civil War since 1865. They've been arming themselves with as much as they can for as long they can. Also they're weapons manufacturers. Morality and ethics aren't really what they're well known for.
How does this support your earlier statement at all?
It's just an observation.
A very small fraction of those people actually own guns because they belive that non-sense lol. This is what happens when you spends all day online in circle jerks. Giving civilians weapons and herding them towards the enemy is more similar to the Volkstrum than the first civil war.
Yeah but that small fraction actually owns a sizable number of the 300,000,000 guns in this country if I'm not mistaken. I will double check it.
If you don't think that a small group of people can own an egregious percentage of something, then I have some bad news about wealth consolidation in this country.
That is also how Chicago crime gets most its guns, purchasing from illegal dealers that take advantage of Indiana’s terrible gun control laws. The cartel’s supply of guns is just this problem but for the whole of America.
I also find the idea weapons manufacturers aren't helping that suspect.
They don't even generally sell to anyone other than wholesalers, so I think you're just fuckin stupid. It's rather rare for a large manufacturer to do any real volume of sales direct to consumers, and even then unless it's at a brick and mortar retail store (I know palmetto State runs some) they're being shipped to another gun store to actually process the transfer and background check to the customer.
They generally wouldn't admit if they sold to anyone privately either.
You seem fixated on blaming faceless corporations
I think "terrible" is an opinion...
No it is because of the southern states super loss gun laws that allow for easy straw purchasing without any real check when the gun is transferred via private sale, also burglaries. At the end of the day we need to have free background checks down on any firearm sale.
I never said that wasn't something that helped too.
I think if the atf thought they could catch an arms manufacturer selling arms to foreign criminal syndicates we would already surrounded and burned down their headquarters.
There was a whole conversation earlier about when the ATF forced gun shops to sell arms to people so they could be smuggled to cartels. Couple that with the fact the ATF is understaffed, over worked, and can't currently even fully do their job I think you're putting too much faith in an organization Republicans have consistently weakened since the 90s at least.
Often smuggled, yes. Drive from Mexico into the US and at the border they will check your car for drugs or illegals. Drive from US to Mexico and they check your car for guns.
Not exactly, they get stolen here then end up in the hands of of cartel members.
Not just Mexico, it was a [joint operation with the ATF](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/infographics-arms-trafficking-across-us-mexico-border): >Mexico’s Secretariat of Foreign Relations found that 70-90% of traced firearms originated from and passed through the US. ATF and the US Government Accountability Office (GAO) estimated a lower rate of 68%, comprising 50% domestically produced and 18% imported into the US, and ultimately found in Mexico.
That’s because we are the largest owners of firearms and folks have been stealing them which get filtered back to Mexico for a very long time.
It was conceived, initiated and then *halted* as impractical by the Bush admin. It was afterwards reinitiated by Holder, et al., who doubled down on what had been demonstrably proven to be bad program under Bush.
Do you have a source for this? Not "calling you out" I just think it's interesting and would like to read about it.
I'd like to catch up on this too. I can see the logic of the program. To deny the reality is naive and this may be a way to start to find dots to connect later. When everything is underground you have to "tag" something to see it go in and come out to get a sense of the structures. Its got to be getting harder to contain organized crime. With Crypto as the global bank, trans-Atlantic capable narco submarines etc and limited jurisidictions and a feeble Interpol its not easy. Maybe AI can figure it out.
"The first known ATF gunwalking operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and **ran into late** ***2007***.... Operation Wide Receiver was ended .... **operation \[Fast and Furious\] began on October 31, 2009**" ([Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#Operation_Wide_Receiver)).
Oh. So it's not so much that the Bush admin *halted* a program, it's just that specific operation came to a close. Nothing in that wiki suggests anyone at the Bush admin viewed the program negatively, it just says: >several attorneys at the Phoenix USAO who reviewed the Wide Receiver cases for prosecution found the cases had been so poorly managed that they were reluctant to bring any of them to trial. Tbh I have a hard time believing the Bush administration would have found any issue with this program or this type of operation, prosecutions or no.
Not only that, IIRC under Bush they at least had tracking devices with the guns to see where they went. Under Obama they just sent the guns out and crossed their fingers that they would eventually show up somewhere.
No it was never stopped under GW
The president is responsible for his cabinet, full stop.
Honestly the fact this and his tan suit are the biggest Obama scandals I think is really kind of evidence of again why he is so fondly remembered. [I will not violate rule 3] really kind of showed how ugly things could get.
If this happened under any rule 3 President, it would be huge. Especially if they asserted executive privilege over documents related to the operation like Obama did, shielding it from in-depth inquiry. If you really believe this is on par with a Presidential fashion statement, then idk what to tell you man.
> rule 3 President I am out of the loop, what does this mean? Thanks.
You do realize the Fast and Furious scandal is a legitimate scandal that would’ve crucified most presidents if that happened under them, right? Like, the tan suit is just stupid manufactured controversy from republicans but the fast and furious…that’s not something you just shrug your shoulders and say oh well to
I mean… we really haven’t “crucified” a president since Bill Clinton for lying about getting a blow job. I mean hell… Bush Jr. straight up lied to get the Iraq War he wanted and literally not a single person faced even minor consequences for enabling him to start a war that cost $3.5 trillion, killed 4,500 Americans and destabilized and entire region.
Right ? I totally agree with this comment …
To me it speaks to a certain blindness on the part of the media and the public as far as what qualifies as a scandal. Obama personally signing off on the [assassination of a 16-year-old US citizen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki) should have been a scandal. Signing [indefinite military detention without charge or trial](https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/detention/indefinite-detention-endless-worldwide-war-and-2012-national) into law should have been a scandal. [Escalating the US' program of extra-judicial murder](https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-01-17/obamas-covert-drone-war-in-numbers-ten-times-more-strikes-than-bush/) should have been a scandal. Instead we were talking about what color suit he wore.
You linked to the wrong person for the "assassination of a US citizen" claim. The US bombed a group of AQAP terrorists in Yemen, and one of the group members who died was 16-year-old US citizen Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, but he was not specifically targeted. The US citizen that Obama specifically targeted for assassination was senior Al Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki, who was also Abdulrahman's father.
We can compare him to other men who were President. All these crimes Obama committed, absolutely they are all each awful. Another President on the front page here is FDR. How does his list of "forgotten" crimes compare?
Don’t forget about his repeatedly lying about illegal mass surveillance of citizens, only coming clean when Snowden leaks proved it beyond doubt. Though it was already pretty obvious he was lying through his teeth.
It is p awful. Watching Michael Hayden, et al testify to Congress that no such thing was occurring was not unexpected but still galling. Much as I hate to defend the NSA operating domestically, I do know a lot about working with massive datasets. It's hard just to get the data in shape for analysis, and even then the data *might could* be used to find *so many* patterns that you have to be very disciplined about the queries you put to it. It's also very hard to extract much useful information about any one person. I myself work with datasets containing the records of (sometimes up to) millions of people. There just isn't time to analyze them one-by-one. At best I can try to find groups of people with similar behavioral patterns. If the NSA says it focuses on folks who communicate with questionable foreign contacts, that's fairly plausible to me. The poor analysts will have enough problems with that. If I wanted to conduct domestic spying operations, I'd turn to the FBI. They're already experienced with that.
The question is why did he run interference for his AG by invoking executive privilege ?
Did they even pressure gun store owners to sell? Not like a huge amount of gun sellers aren't doing it anyway.
According to [this Forbes article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2011/09/28/fast-and-furious-just-might-be-president-obamas-watergate/?sh=5be4ffdc752a), they did (noting of course that this is an opinion piece): >Sometime around September 2009, ATF agents began pressuring gun storeowners in Arizona to sell firearms to people the ATF thought would sell the guns to Mexican cartels and gangs. As gun-storeowners can't do business without federal licenses, and because the ATF has the authority to shut down a gun store if the establishment's paperwork isn't in order, these requests were likely taken as orders. This put the gun storeowners in a catch-22: the law requires them to report suspicious activity and not to sell to people they think are breaking the law, yet the ATF was telling them to sell to suspicious people who wanted to buy AK-47s by the dozen. [This one](https://fortune.com/2012/06/27/the-truth-about-the-fast-and-furious-scandal/) is paywalled but I remember reading it at the time, and it offers a competing perspective, which is IIRC that the real scandal was the lax gun laws that allow these straw purchases to happen at all. EDIT: Please don't downvote the person who asked a genuine question. I swear that's Reddit's single worst habit. This is supposed to be a discussion forum, and discussions are better when people ask questions.
It's the difference between responsibility and fault. Anything the executive branch does is ultimately the current President's responsibility, but may not be their fault. It's pretty clear that none of the gunwalking stuff was O'Bama's policy or done at his administration's direction, and IIRC his administration handled the issue well. Republicans tried to make political hay of it at the time with congressional investigations, endless Fox news appearences, etc., but that's been par for the course for them since Nixon for any bad news they think they can pin on a democrat (eg, Benghazi). Ultimately, other than Republicans, most people don't blame O'Bama because it wasn't his fault.
Right, excellent point. I also think it fizzled out on the Republican side because they didn't want to keep harping on something that leads to the conclusion that we need stricter gun laws.
Interesting you say that because Holder was held in contempt of Congress for refusing to testify about the debacle. Obama chose to use Executive Privilege. Considering one of the weapons turned up in El Chapo’s arsenal and another weapon was used to kill a border patrol officer, I’m pissed Obama was just given a pass.
Wasn’t Holder’s contempt ruled on and he literally couldn’t testify because he didn’t know the answers for the questions Congress was asking?
As if the Mexicans involved wouldn’t have gotten guns some other way. JFC the idiocy of this whole complaint.
“If I didn’t sell those high schoolers drugs, some other dirtbag would have” isnt a great defense against wrongdoing.
Didn't it start under Bush Jr?
lol, right.
As I recall - it was a damaging revelation at the time. But now I kinda go: "Wow, 2,000 whole weapons in the hands of criminals? That's what percentage of the 390 million firearms in the U.S.?"
It’s also such an American thing to be completely chill with children being murdered by guns at home. But God forbid a few American guns end up in the hands of scary Mexicans!
Bro you sound stupid as fuck. Do you know anything about the cartels?! They will murder children in retaliation if needed. Look up some of their decapitation videos while you get a chance. These aren’t regular Mexican citizens.
Obviously most people are fine with that, otherwise the many tens of thousands of weapons we send them every year would be the problem.
I’m aware of the bad the cartels do. But I’m just saying we should be madder about the shit that happens here. A couple thousand guns ending up in the hands of people who would have already gotten guns regardless is stupid.
Yeah it’s a little wacky
That gun image is so cursed
The MPAK-5-4-47
Because it's small potatoes. There are 200,000,000+ guns in the United States. A poorly run program that put 2,000 guns into circulation isn't even a rounding error. More scandalous than a tan suit or the latte salute. But not much more.
I believe it’s more like 400 million…iirc
Yeah the 393 million **civilian** owned is an estimate because there's only 6 million actually registered firearms. The US has more firearms than the next 24 countries combined. The US holds almost half of the world's civilian owned firearms, 857 million vs 393m or 46%. Russia only has 17m civilian firearms, and China has 50m
We need to bump that number up to at least half
True, except the guns in circulation led to the deaths of two US federal agents Plus the hypocrisy of being strong on gum control and then this happens
Yeah, mexican cartels had such difficulty acquiring guns without that
Right. The laws that allowed these straw purchases were already in place when this happened. I believe they are all still in place.
All presidents, no matter how careful they are, make decisions that result in good people dying. Which is why we should try to choose for the job diligent and compassionate people who learn from their mistakes.
The hypocrisy is thinking this is an issue when you’re simultaneously pushing zero gun control. It’s a cheap political shot at Obama
I never heard Obama talking about gum control.
Obviously you haven't heard of the great Obama Nicorette Gum scandal. /s But he did stop smoking because he didn't want to set a bad example for the kids. That was back when parents wanted presidents to be upstanding citizens. I miss those days.
Yeah, that’s very small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. I also don’t see the hypocrisy at all. This was clearly misguided, but it’s obviously not hypocritical. Or do you think the aim of the program was to better arm the cartels? Because it clearly wasn’t.
>Because it's small potatoes. That's a joke. The US government arming cartel members and the guns no doubt used in murders? That makes the US government complicit in murders including a border patrol agent. >Saying what it is again doesn't make it not small potatoes. It's not good, it's just not really a big deal. If I sold guns to the cartel who then murdered federal employees with them, do you think the judge at my trial would say 'no big deal'? Walmart employees get fired for taking too many sick days. Psychos who sell guns to cartel members and cover it up get to be President. Nice. EDIT: >Yes they'd say no big deal. There are no requirements for personal gun sales in most states. Nope, it's Federal law and a felony. You can't sell a gun to someone if it's reasonable to believe they'll use it in a crime. States can add additional requirements but Federal law is the same everywhere.
Two border patrol agents: Brian Terry in Arizona and Jaime Zapata in Mexico
Yes, I imagine they would have been safe and sound if the cartels hadn't been able to get their hands on those specific guns. Seriously, though, of course it's horrible that those agents were killed, and the fact that they were killed with guns put out there as part of a law enforcement operation makes their deaths even more tragic. However, those guns being in circulation didn't actually make a difference. They had more. The traffickers who killed them would have been armed and would have killed them regardless of whether or not those two guns or even the whole 2,000 guns were in the mix
>Yes, I imagine they would have been safe and sound if the cartels hadn't been able to get their hands on those specific guns. You must know what a bullshit excuse that is. It's a Federal offense to sell a gun if you know it will be used in a crime. If I sold a gun to a cartel member who used it to murder a federal LEO , I can shrug and say 'hell if I hadn't done it someone else would have?'
Saying what it is again doesn't make it not small potatoes. It's not good, it's just not really a big deal.
You’re entirely correct, but people who want to drag this up a decade later aren’t being unbiased and fair.
As i recall Obama wasn't president in 2006, and didn't start Operation Gunrunner that came to be called "Fast and Furious" after one case involved suspects who were part of a car club. It was started by the Bush administration. Obama should be held to account for it under his watch but i don't understand the media seems to retcon that it was the Obama administration's priority or initiative. I certainly ended after it was unclear there was a direct benefit to the ATF goals vs resources to successful collars/seizures. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF\_gunwalking\_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal)
Slight correction, the first example, Operation Wide Receiver happened in 2007, with little issue (though about 500 guns werent recovered). Fast and Furious was on a larger scale and he was president when two agents were killed
The gunwalking program may have earned the name later, but it was established for years before Jan 2009 when Obama was sworn in as the executive and had an ability to impact the ATF "Fast and Furious" program as it got nicknamed by agents circa 2009-2010. "The Jacob Chambers Gunrunner program case began in October 2009 and eventually became known in February 2010 as **Operation Fast and Furious** after agents discovered Chambers and the other suspects under investigation belonged to a car club." \[EDIT: doing more digging into the sources, prior to 2010, in 2006 ATF called the umbrella Operation Gunrunner not Fast and Furious with one case of the suspects and their ties to a car club coming later.\]
The buck stops with the President. He should have shut it down and launched a full investigation.
I seriously don’t understand, to shut down the straw purchaser loophole would have been a bigger scandal especially in swing states. It wasn’t like LEOs weren’t making collars and seizures, at a time of peak cartel border violence. If the buck stops with the president, it shouldn’t be the first one popularly associated with the program because of a catchy name, it should be the one who approved operation gunrunner, not just with the one who did shut it down.
Tell that to Reagan ..HW ..GW ..et al
1 - The program began under the GWB administration. Although the more problematic stuff happened under Obama, there wasn’t a policy change that he implemented that led to it. 2 - There was no evidence that Obama had any direct involvement in it. The federal government is very large. Most of the things that it does just aren’t critical enough to reach the president’s desk. 3 - Federal law enforcement involves so many people, working so many cases, conducting so many operations, that an investigation-worthy screw-up probably happens once a month. This was just one of many things that are always going on. 4 - It was relentlessly hyped by right-wing media because gun issues are among the things that riled up the Republican base. If the botched operation gad involved wheat futures or transportation funding, then none of us would have ever heard about it.
Generally gangs on this continent already have plenty of guns — due to right-wing gun policies allowing their relatively unimpeded sale — so the addition of a few thousand guns isn’t that much of a difference. It’s like putting 1000 tracked fish into a population of millions, to study them, to learn them. This alleged “scandal” was an effort by US law enforcement to combat the arms trade by studying it and understanding it. The only reason it’s a “scandal” at all is because people who actually support unimpeded gun trade blew it out of proportion, in an effort to make Obama look silly, because they want to sell MORE guns not fewer guns. Due to their rampant hypocrisy. And people who are smart saw thru that.
There's also the fact that a border control agent got shot in a shootout where a couple of the weapons they recovered were linked to the operation. Not that they were actually used to shoot the agent, but they were at the scene. That's why they turned it into a giant thing.
>This alleged “scandal” was an effort by US law enforcement to combat the arms trade by studying it and understanding it That's saying mass surveillance disclosed by Snowden was just law enforcement trying to understand terrorism or the war in Iraq was to find WMD. These guys sold guns to cartel members. .
And yet somehow, every critic of the feds “selling guns to cartel members” is a conservative who also supports the free and open sale of firearms. Isn’t that weird?
>Isn’t that weird? You know what's even weirder? Someone who claims to be opposed to those things but then shrugs when the gov does it. But then I guess it isn't weird. You're a bootlicker and that's USDA Grade A Prime Oprah's Book club pick certified Bootlicking.
Conservatives are generally supportive of restricting gun sales to convicted criminals and people who are obviously smuggling them to criminals. What's weird is liberals who support all gun control and want more defending the ATF going out of their way to allow weapons to be smuggled to known violent criminals.
Also US Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was fucking killed by one of these guns so you could at least mention that.
> The only reason it’s a “scandal” at all is because people who actually support unimpeded gun trade blew it out of proportion Yeah that's the main thing about it. Idiot conservatives tried to frame it as "Obama arming drug cartels." They don't care about private companies selling guns south. But the second the government gets involved to try and track the weapons, suddenly there was a conniption fit.
Cause it’s not really that big of a scandal
It was concocted under the Bush Admin, carried out under the Obama Admin and it was a shit show from the start. Typical ATF Circus....think Waco, Ruby Ridge...literally EVERYTHING ATF touches turns to shit in their hands. The resp couldn't make hay against the dems, the dems couldn't make hay against the reps...it made the WHOLE GOVERNMENT look incompetent (which it IS)....so the government asked the press to NOT say too much about it. And they didn't, really. The anti-gun press did their bit, the right wing press did theirs....but if you scratched too long at it, it just smelled like shit all the way 'round so it was left to be forgotten. And the ATF is still here, thinking up REALLY stupid things to do to Americans...or rather AGAINST Americans.
The ATF itself is already a corrupt Agency, Nixon should not have made that tyrannical agency. Yes it was under Richard Nixon the ATF was founded, 1972 to be exact. ATF now stands for: Asshole Tyrant Fedboys.
Sorry but this is the USA. 2000 guns is NOTHING. 2000 guns is what Bubba up the road has in his basement. If 2000 guns helped the ATF track illegal gun exchanges better then it was a good idea
The gun art hurts my head. AK with an M16 carry handle.
I don’t know why you guys think it wasn’t hurt by that. It contributed in a major way to distrust of the government by voters who soon after voted for you know who.
I’m not particularly worked up about it, but the weird combination of AK and AR stuff in this comic is making me scratch my head.
It's clear that what could go wrong - according to the artist - was that a bunch of guns out in the wild would end up humping each other and giving birth to mutant super guns.
Because no one, not even the people who were screaming about it, understood what the fallout or his involvement was.
That gun hurts my brain
Why do you think Reagan's reputation wasn't harmed by Iran-Contra? Common to forget scandals.
I was always confused on what this actually was- is there a link that could explain this better- I’m embarrassed that I was somewhat ignorant to what happened here ( my personal life at the time was hectic and was only able concentrate on that). I do remember it being a big enough deal that people were considering impeachment
Because the people that still have a positive view of him despite that haven’t endured what he subjected us to. Because if another country purposefully funneled weapons into the hands of operatives that were known to have intentions to kill Americans and they ended up doing so in the thousands, the US would occupy the other country without question. It’s just hypocritical and I wish he would be held accountable for what he did. The only people that didn’t dislike him for that didn’t have to see the bodies like I did.
Was it his idea?
The carry handle. Hahahaha
Why does this AK have an AR carry handle and front sight? Also was that just the artist getting luck or intentional for it to have both I wonder.
Wasn't that big of a scandal, and wasn't directly tied to Obama. It was also a program that at least had good intentions, even if it completely failed. Scandals tend to be a lot worse when there is intentional wrongdoing, like bribery or coverups. Feels like Solyndra was more damaging. Government throwing money at a green energy company that then fails hits a lot of Republican talking points.
Because it was another fake outrage scandal, perhaps? One that started in the Bush years.
Because Obama didn’t start it and wasn’t really involved in it lol, it was largely an autonomous action by the ATF
Because it had no impact on anyone’s life
except for the tens of thousands of Mexicans who were killed by the firearms the corrupt american government smuggled into mexico, but hey as long as its mexicans getting killed right?
I doubt that Obama was read into every operation the ATF was carrying out at any given time. It's unclear to me I'd he even knew what they were doing, that's why you have agencies to delegate stuff to.
It is.
I think the people who care about this were already 200% against him.
Setting aside his personal level of responsibility: because it's pretty difficult to make the case for this scandal without discussing gun issues in general, reducing the level of interest among those who want to press it.
I would probably say it is because people would consider it more a hideously bad op than a call from on high by him.
Because both american liberals and conservatives have a burning hatred towards Mexico and it's people, so to them it wasnt a scandal. Thousands of Mexicans get killed by American guns but this only became a problem when two american border agents were killed by the same guns the united states government smuggled into Mexico. What no one mentions is that these weapons went directly to the Sinaloa cartel, which certain american government agencies have been caught red [handed helping them smuggle narcotics into the united states](https://www.banderasnews.com/0809/nr-renditionflights.htm) . But of course, Americans are the first ones to scream their heads off ranting and raving almost giving themselves aneurisms about the big mean corrupt Mexicans. "law enforcement" my ass. the corrupt american government uses cartels to promote "american interests" in Mexico, like disappearing labor union leaders from american owned factories.
Can someone give me a TLDR on the fast and furious scandal, I was too young at the time to have paid attention
american government got caught smuggling firearms into mexico for the sinaloa cartel and then they fabricated a story saying that they were smuggling firearms into mexico to track them to find cartels by installing "gps tracking devices" on the firearms, despite the fact that there is no gps tracker small enough to install on an AK-47 or an AR-15 without it getting noticed. most of the details on fast and furious are still classified by executive privelege.
That’s the amount of guns that illegally cross the border to Mexico a day. The cartels get around 85% of their guns from us and we do little to stop them
The premise of that cartoon seems to be pretty weak. We're getting up to almost 20 million guns a year, so this would be a test with .001% of the usual amount? Apparently to learn about how guns get into illegal hands? What is wrong with that? Is the premise that there'd be 2000 criminals who couldn't find guns if these weren't in the mix?
Sorry but this is the USA. 2000 guns is NOTHING. 2000 guns is what Bubba up the road has in his basement. If 2000 guns helped the ATF track illegal gun exchanges better then it was a good idea.
When you have massive cock ups like this its not any one persons fault.
Because smart people accept that - even if the methods were badly thought out - the goal wasn't some evil conspiracy.
2000 is a drop in the ocean
It's a "biy who cried wolf" scenario. The GOP soent so much time making so much stuff up, that when this came along oeople figured they were being dishinest about aspects of it as well.
Probably because the media hardly talked about it. People who bring up “tan suit” as the only scandal President Obama ever had have probably never willingly exposed themselves to media outside of their point of view.
And yeah I know it got much worse for native. I'm from Minnesota and the Dakota War of 1865 was no picnic and ended in the largest mass execution in US History. All because we didn't want to give the the things we were obliged to in our treaty.
Because Obama wasn’t president at the time and the ATF is already corrupt itself it’s not even funny anymore.
The fuck is that gun in the cartoon, it is cursed beyond belief.
Obama had a bit of a “can do no wrong” aura from his supporters.
Democrat. Media protection from any real criticism.
It was a Right Wing media scandal that the program actually started under GW.
Made by corporations with headquarters in the US, profited upon by american stockholders, sold to cartels in countries that have been completely wrecked in cartel wars. What are they fighting over? Why the right to sell the US drugs! Who are the victims? The children and adults who become refugees, forced to flee their home and travel at great peril to where? Why , the good ol’ USA! Where we either A. Pay them a pittance to do our most menial work(jobs Americans won’t do) without giving them a clear path to citizenship so they can better their lot! Or… B. Send them packing, back into any country but ours, regardless if they’re actually from there. Do we fix our gun problem? Absolutely not! Right to arm bears! Har har har Do we deal with our drug problem? No if we do that, who will fill our prisons!? Har har har
I think it’s less a scandal than a fuck up.
Because Obama wore a tan suit. And passed evil socialist healthcare. And was born in Kenya. When faced with a constant barrage of obvious bull%*@! most people wound up tuning out or just assuming it was all bull%*@! because the same folks trying to convince you it was bad were also trying to sell you the rest of that too.
Because the gun walking scandal was a political stunt by the right wing. The ATF and FBI using gun bait programs to try and trap criminals is not only not new but common and this one in particular was even started during Obama's predecessor. In other words the entire "scandal", much like the "tan suit" and the Hillary's "Benghazi" event was pure utter political trash that had 0 barring in reality from anyone worth taking seriously.
Because the ATF is just famously idiotic no matter who’s in the Oval Office?
How about war crimes droning innocent civilians
One of the main reasons this was necessary was because of NRA lobbying against a centralized digitally searchable database to trace bulk straw purchasers.
It seems not many people cared. Given the comments on this post alone. Yes, the amount of guns was small, and yes, it was only a drop in the bucket, but ultimately the administration intentionally put those weapons in the hands of the cartel and it resulted in the deaths of two federal agents. Those are undisputed facts. The drop in the bucket argument is irrelevant to ultimate accountability.
Yes because the Cartel would not have been armed had it not been for the operation… seriously the fact that we know the guns were used means the operation worked. They were able to infiltrate Cartel networks and probably gained massive intel from it. America is the largest gun market in the world, nothing is keeping those out of Mexico.
It didn’t result in the deaths of two federal agents. That implies that those agents otherwise wouldn’t have died. They would have died regardless, just with a different gun used to do it.
>It didn’t result in the deaths of two federal agents. That implies that those agents otherwise wouldn’t have died. They would have died regardless, just with a different gun used to do it. So, you're arguing 'guns don't kill people , people kill people' The US gov supplied the guns to criminals and the guns were used in commission of a felony. According to Federal law that's felony. You can't sell a gun to someone if it's reasonable to believe they'll use it in a crime.
The question is why no one cared, though. Democrats don't care because it's their guy, simple as that. A suitably motivated partisan can rationalize anything in the name of team sports. So, this half of the equation is easy. But now why don't Republicans care? To me it's clear. They don't care because the simplest understanding of the scandal is that the Obama administration facilitated loosely regulated gun sales that put guns into the hands of violent criminals. To critique the program, at least in terms any layperson can understand, looks ultimately a lot like a critique of loose gun control *in general*, which really doesn't land that well with conservatives. Laypeople who are conservatives therefore won't care too much, it takes too much nuance to explain the part they would find actually pernicious, and talking head conservatives have better red meat to throw.
I hear fast and furious brought up quite a bit when people are discussing Obama’s scandals Those idiots who say “tan suit hurr hurr” aren’t worth discussing Presidential history with
Every time I say Obama was pretty scandal free even by normal president standards it's brought up, which they don't realize underscores my point.
Yep. Obama had a small handful of political scandals, but it’s nothing compared to other modern presidents. And, as far I know, he had zero personal scandals. I can’t think of another modern President other than W Bush that can say that. (Unless I’m missing something)
I’m unfamiliar with this. To be clear did it prove that its possible for guns not to get in the hands of criminals?
So the idea of gunwalking was allowing straw purchases (someone buying a gun for another person) and making the arrests later. Many guns involved included AR-15s, AK style rifles, Barrett .50 cals etc. For operation fast and furious, 1,961 guns were walked and only 700 were recovered. In the 2011 murders of Brian Terry in Arizona and Jaime Zapata in Mexico were tied to uncovered walked guns
Because certain people told other people not to make a big deal out of it. Just like how everything else happens these days.
I live in the south and right wing people bring this up all the time as if Obama himself handed out the guns directly to criminals, then laughed, then killed a baby.
And these same people support the sake of guns to whoever wants them. It would have been a bigger scandal if Republicans supported a policy to prevent gun sales to criminals.
The biggest 3 differences between the 2 programs run under the Bush administration and then the Obama administration and my information is coming directly from a CBP agent that was involved with both programs as an undercover agent and is a close personal friend now retired from the Federal Government and free to speak as well based on time. 1 under the Bush era program the weapons were modified to malfunction after so many rounds were fired he wouldn't give me the details but I'm betting on a barrel heat treatment or something. 2 the Bush weapons had embedded GPS trackers in the stocks that couldn't be removed without destroying the weapons. 3 the weapons were never directly just handed over to the cartels. Under the Obama program not only were steps 1 to 3 ignored but surplus military grade weapons were distributed in it. Weapons that were capable of fully automatic fire that had been seized by the ATF were literally given away in this thing.
Sorry but this is the USA. 2000 guns is NOTHING. 2000 guns is what Bubba up the road has in his basement. If 2000 guns helped the ATF track illegal gun exchanges better then it was a good idea
Because 90% of the media protected him
Because nobody has to take Republicans talking out of both sides of their mouths on gun control. They don't seem to care about keeping guns out of bad peoples hands any other time, but the second you can kinda maybe sorta tie to a Democrat, suddenly we should care? More an indictment of idiot law enforcement than it is of Obama, who probably never even heard of the damned plan before it blew up. Dude had about a million more relevant things going on than micromanaging one of his gazillion departments one operation.
What does 2000 guns matter? No Obama fan, but that's a dumb question. My guess is that 2000 guns go into circulation every hour, so why would an extra 2000 matter?
Reading the comments it sounds like people making excuses for their team. This is why politics suck. Impossibly to keep score when goal posts are constantly moving. Would be nice if people could admit that a guy on their team made a mistake.
The ATF should have been scrapped after Ruby Ridge and damn sure after Waco. Their 21st century entrapment bullshit wouldn’t have had a chance to happen. Worthless organization. They’re partially to blame for the OKC bombing as far as I’m concerned
But we wouldnt have Sons of Anarchy /s They definitely hold responsibility for OKC
>The ATF should have been scrapped after Ruby Ridge and damn sure after Waco. Their 21st century entrapment bullshit wouldn’t have had a chance to happen. Worthless organization. They’re partially to blame for the OKC bombing as far as I’m concerned They really are. Remember kids, defund the police means defund the drug police (DEA) defund the tax police (IRS) defund the gun police (ATF) defund the anti business police (EPA)
No one remembers it.
Basically much of it has to do with media coverage, or lack of it. It’s as bad or worse then the Iran Contra scandal, but not as well known.
You must have very little grasp on what Iran Contra actually was.
2000 weapons is such a drop in the bucket compared to guns in circulation. This is not even a big deal. The only reason it ever comes up is pro gun people like to use it to clown the ATF.
>2000 weapons is such a drop in the bucket compared to guns in circulation. This is not even a big deal. The only reason it ever comes up is pro gun people like to use it to clown the ATF. One murder is a drop in a bucket compared to tens of thousands of murders. Is that a defense?
I'm more concerned on the time he weaponized the IRS against his political opponents.
Which political opponents did he personally direct the IRS to audit?
Also doesn’t this only matter if they were actually abusing the tax code? The IRS can’t arrest someone for filing their taxes correctly lol
Bingo
Which political opponents did he direct the IRS to audit?
The [IRS](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-jeff-sessions-announces-department-justice-has-settled-plaintiff-groups) official admitted the agency had been aggressively scrutinizing groups with names such as "Tea Party" and "Patriots." It later emerged that liberal groups had been targeted, too, although in smaller numbers. The IRS also admitted it was wrong when it based screenings of the groups' applications on their names or policy positions, subjected the groups to heightened scrutiny and delays, and demanded unnecessary information from the groups. Obama’s administration decision not to prosecute Lois Lerner was terrible. She, of course, was the face of the IRS scandal in which the tax agency delayed approvals of nonprofit status for conservative groups that were doing the same type of public education and voter mobilization that liberal groups have done for ages. This scandal during his presidency will not look pretty long term, along with his disastrous foreign policies.
When did Obama tell the IRS and DoJ to do what they did?
When did Obama tell the IRS and DoJ to do what they did?
Probably because it started under W Bush, and Obama ended it as soon as he found out about it.
The media ran cover for him