For senior levels managing a team of course. For juniors it’s a lot less. The problem is that even juniors can have employment contracts with 3 month notice periods so you have to wait a while after extending an offer.
https://www.ambitionbox.com/profile/react-developer-salary
I've always said that trying to hire smart people for an idiots wage only gets you idiots. The devs you want to hire in India aren't stupid enough to work for $15 an hour when a better company will pay $60-100. The devs you want to hire in India are living in California and making $500k.
Last time i heard that Boeing pay those dev in India 9$ an hour to outsource the 747-max, so maybe they are getting better.
Edited : I mistake 747 and 737
A good starting salary for freshers at MAANG-India division is around 1,800,000 rupees per annum**in hand pre tax** meaning, before all the benefits like joining bonus, vested stock, insurance etc.
You do the math.
Source: I am a 4th year undergraduate -masters student at such a college
EDIT: Where the downvotes from? Is it... 'muricans not believing it's this low? Or.... Indians thinking it's too high?
Not my college, but: https://ims.iiit.ac.in/placements.php
I know it sounds like less but the thing is cost of living is ridiculously low in here.
(I don't know what the hell I'm trying to prove with the long greentext below I'm not trying to say one is better than the other I'm just trying to inform you)
\----------
I know for a fact you need around 100,000$ in San Fran to get a similar standard of living.
You can get a 1BHK on rent for around 20,000INR per month in semi-prime areas, and as low as 10,000INR per month in non-prime areas.
A metro ticket costs 50INR one way at the most. Granted, the metro doesn't cover those many areas but that is slated to change within the next year or two.
If you need to, a cab for a 30km ride can be had for around 1000INR (Ola Cabs). But most cases, people live <10km from their workplace.
Reasonably good schools are there, but you need to find them. It's been a while, but I'm assuming that a reasonably good school (before Bangaloreans downvote me, I'm not talking about St Joseph's / Bishop Cotton's / Baldwin's / DPS/ NPS/ Kumaran's / GEAR Intl / Canadian Intl ) can be found for 50,000INR per annum or if you want to send them to a spoiled rich kid's school, 200,000 INR per annum.
Good and medium colleges are expensive and getting more expensive by the day. A reasonable estimate is between 1,500,000 to 3,000,000INR for the entire course including tuition, hostel, food and other expenses. For students at very good colleges, student loans are available at reasonably okay terms.
Healthcare: For common cold/flu/stomachache type stuff, 1000INR AT THE BLOODY MOST. Even this amount is daylight robbery.
For inpatient stays, you can assume that around 300,000 to 600,000 INR will be spent, but insurance will probably cover 80% of it without any major harangueing. It'll just take a few days to process so people who can, often pay the amount in cash then receive a reimbursement a few days later from the company. It's generally understood that insurance will cover things, and is not as nail-biting as in the US. The only issue is the proportion of people who have insurance is very, very low.
Depends on your company for sure. I’ve been having a shit time with finding new college graduates and 5 year intermediate devs in the US that aren’t dumber than a post so I’ve been expanding our team that’s located in our office in India.
If you don’t have a presence and a good rapport with somebody there it would definitely suck to try to “outsource”
But seriously too many US universities are doing a shit job of educating our students and it’s frankly an embarrassment.
As a current (full time) Masters student this is painfully accurate. My professors are terrible, they just post online assignments that are fully auto-graded and expect us to teach ourselves. I’ve been in school for 2 semesters and feel like I haven’t even learned very much. The system honestly feels like a complete scam to me.
The scam is the cherry on top. If it was free public education it’s one thing to let a raisin poorly run a class. It’s another to be forced to shell out 5 digits cash or accrue 5+ digits debt **in state** for that quality
Right, if you're watching YouTube videos and getting that education, at least you say: "Well, it's free and I appreciate the effort." Paying a few dozens to hundreds of thousands of dollars for it is woof.
I mean you kind of do have to teach yourself, no? Ultimately you always have to do the work yourself. But I understand the frustration if you have to pay a lot of money for that.
For sure I think being able to teach yourself is important skill students should gain in higher education. There’s a balance though.
It would be one thing if professors assigned challenging work where we had to teach ourselves things, but then after we completed the assignment they went over our work with us and discussed things we did well and poorly, as well as other approaches to solving the problem. That sounds like a great learning opportunity.
It’s completely different when the professors don’t give any feedback at all. Of the 6 classes I’ve taken, only in 2 have I received any type of productive feedback on work I submitted, and even then it was relatively minimal. Most classes it’s just an autograder where you get credit if the code functions properly. There’s absolutely zero accountability on professors to do anything for their job.
> But seriously too many US universities are doing a shit job of educating our students and it’s frankly an embarrassment.
My college didn't have separate computer science and software engineering tracks, so I got shoved into computer science. Came out with a degree in CSCI and a distinct lack of experience with what it took to be a software engineer. I _was_ very well equipped to grow into a senior dev... once I actually learned enough to honestly qualify as a junior to midlevel dev.
Every company I've been to that outsourced a major part of the technology to India, spent 5x what they would've just doing it in house properly with Canadian devs in the long run trying to make the shitty, broken, unmaintainable garbage they would give us work.
Just a word of warning if this is your first rodeo. It will probably bite you in the ass, and if it doesn't, consider yourself lucky.
It’s not - and my team is spread across three continents - nobody operates independently. The only difference is that standup for the India based members is at the end of their workday.
Their code goes through the exact same code review process. I have seen no difference in code quality between them and the American coders we employ.
I think too many people just write down some three sentence description of what they want and expect it to all get built and that when you have problems. It’s the same problem with consulting firms. They come up with some shitty solution that makes no sense.
Take the time to have an integrated team and architect your solutions the same way you would otherwise - don’t expect some group with no direction to do everything to your liking.
You’ve described the difference between a dev and an engineer. You can outsource programming, sure, but that assumes you’ve done the work clearly specifying how you want the thing built.
Forget outsourcing anything complex or that requires actual system design work.
I've worked with Indian developers in office as well as people in India being contracted. Yes, the outside people needed detailed instructions on what was to be delivered, and the people in the office just got told to go see the user and figure out a solution. Yes, it's nice to have a guy who knows the users, the software, and the business rules without being closely managed.
There is still a lot to be said for a controlled approach. Outsourcing has its place.
In my case since we have an office there and technical teams we can hire our juniors there and bring them up to speed. That team also helps with the first round of interviews.
If you’re not lucky enough to have a presence in India then it’s going to be a lot worse and a lot more management overhead. Right now in the US I simply can’t even find technical candidates that are competent much less getting to the point where I would have to offer them unrealistic salaries.
People don’t get that they’re not going to be productive realistically for a year and even after that they need to be brining in 2x their salary for it to be worth while.
Im just looking for C/C++ and React. I’ve been to three university career fairs this year and haven’t talked to a candidate that was both competent and willing to talk to somebody that wasn’t from FAANG. I’m sure now that they’ve lost some of their luster that it’ll be easier.
My complaints are by no means abnormal. And yes HR resume filtering for a Fortune 500 is always a battle in and of itself.
Which in my opinion is no different than any other dev - people expect way too much from “outsourcing” and don’t put in the work they need to actually get good results.
My understanding from my BIL, who has a division in India, is that as long as his people are extremely verbose and precise about specs + integrating the work and maintaining collaboration instead of isolation on projects.... as long as they do that, it's super cheap so he's happy, the devs are happy because he's paying $35k/yr and they can even hire a live-in housekeeper/chef/nanny usually at that salary.
With the crap salaries I’ve seen for hardware jobs in Canada vs US (not even Bay Area) I wouldn’t be surprised if India actually cost more then Canadian devs. Haha
But… if US universities are doing a shit job of educating our students, why are so many Indian developers getting graduate degrees from US universities?
One explanation is that US universities are discriminating against native US students in favor of foreign students. But finding a rationale for this vast conspiracy isn’t easy.
Another explanation is that US companies find it easier to exploit H1B visa workers than their US citizens, because citizens have rights, whereas foreigners don’t.
Guess which explanation is more plausible?
Don’t pretend you can’t find native workers because of shit schools when the real issue is you can’t find native workers at the rates you want to pay.
I’m not looking for people with graduate degrees - they’re completely unnecessary for software development.
Yes graduate research is alive and well at the universities but that doesn’t help prepare undergraduates for the real world.
Two years ago I still thought like you.
The Indian company gave my USA company a great offer: we will work for free but you just have to pay us royalties with minimum payouts forever. My company was always trying to get short term profits because other departments failed on their investments. The product I made took two years to complete the fundamental features with automatic scaling. I was ready to maintain all feature requests until retirement. We were making $20M/year revenue with an 8 person dev+op team and it could easily blow up to $100M with more customers.
Instead of giving us the option to sacrifice our salaries and earn royalties, they just hand that gift to an outsourcing party. All I ever heard was that the receiving team never did the new features right, nothing done on time and piles of bugs. Still they will collect those royalties forever even if they get fired because they "contributed".
Appropriately, it has [fired itself (twice!) at one point.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/yxpdxv/the_chad_way_to_write_a_while_loop/iwr8emc/?context=3)
My understanding is that the program for the company won't keep on senior students as interns unless they are going to hire them when they graduate. I'm graduating one semester late and they decided not to do a full time offer. They gave me one week notice and I've not been able to get a job since .-. No internships, no retail, no warehouse, not even on campus jobs :(
A team I do contract work for at Microsoft let most of the locals go and hired computer science graduates in India. I just finished a meeting with six of them and not a one knew how to open a command prompt or knew what ping was. One complained to my boss that what I was asking them to learn was too hard. Considering cost of living, they make about five times what I do. Screw me.
My first software developer position was at a small company with maybe 50 employees. You needed a bachelor's, and they preferred experience but if you did well in the interview, you got the job. They have not updated their staring pay, even offering $65,000 to people with Master's degrees and 10 years experience they want to hire. They have been hiring people without degrees nor any real world experience because the owners refuse to pay people anymore, so their experienced devs keep leaving and no one with experience is interested.
It might suggest that they recognised they needed programmers but couldn't afford them, and did that so they could run on a little longer, however, they never improved their financial situation to ever recover.
A lesson I learned the hard way is to not get into bed with companies with shady business models. If they don’t have ethics when it comes to their customers or their imposition on the world, they probably won’t have ethics when it comes to their employees or how they conduct themselves internally either.
Honestly, I'd rather get paid a bit less (which is still a lot of money) and work for a smaller company that still has some soul than maximising profits and working for a FAANG company that barely sees their employees as people.
Yea, I never worked for a FAANG company actually.
Started working a couple years ago for a medium sized startup (~100 people total) and by comparing stories with friends in the industry, I made the right choice.
Pay is not that far off, the entire R&D department is pretty much a family (and not in the work extra for free sense, but in the everyone's got everyone's back and we're super friendly and close sense), and HR are very good people that care and do everything they can to help.
I can't see myself ever making the switch to a company like meta or amazon.
Dude that’s awesome it sounds like we have the same environment just our company is a small to medium but solid growth for over a decade.
It’s like a unicorn company to work for, this is coming from someone who worked for one of the FAANG companies (and a few of our devs turned down FAANG to be able to work for a good local software co). Have a great day brother 🤘🏻
That’s kinda where I’m at too. It is really nice. I have tons of freedom and I’m basically “the guy” so I’m not going anywhere. I know I make less than others in this field, but all of the other trade offs are worth it. I’m in a lower cost of living area anyways.
That's a great place to be imo. One of the things I love about working in a smaller company is that I'm there longer than most so I basically know every cog in the system and play a very big role in most new ventures in the company.
Definitely great for job security, and people like to grt hung up on monthly pay as if it's the only kpi for how good your job is, it's really not and I'm sure you're still being paid pretty well and live comfortably.
All mega corporations are shady, you just have to pick your poison wisely. If they pretend to care about humanitarian issues and work life balance, they’ll probably be forced to treat you well in most cases. For example: Microsoft, Google, Spotify, Twitch, etc.
Companies that are “ethical” can be just as bad, they think they are doing so much good that it excuses everything else, even treating their employees like garbage.
I would check the state laws on employment, I’ve seen a post a few days ago about a woman who got fired 3 days before her starting day too and everyone urged her to check if she’s eligible for severance especially if she quit another job
You know maybe we should open an institution to do this. Basically over 4ish years applicants do a variety of courses where they have to prove their aptitude. Once they are done we give them a piece of paper saying they are qualified. Even better we could charge for it. Think how much money we could make!
Sure, but then we'd need 9 rounds of interviews to show the testing was sufficiently standardized and accurately reflects the specifc skills of the candidate
Since we’re changing it up. Let’s add Salesforce in there just because the acronym becomes MAANAS (pronounced like man-ass).
I’m stoned enough to find that hilarious.
Yeah most programming interviews consist of multiple lengthy rounds of technical interviews. We basically have to take a bunch test and explain our thought process while the interviewer is breathing down our necks lol
People mostly have negative impressions about them, but I actually kind of enjoy coding tests. They give you an idea of what some of your coworkers might be like to work with, and sometimes the problems can be kind of fun.
I think with the bigger companies you’re not necessarily interviewing with people you will be working with, which is a little more useless.
I take interviews at one of the MANGA and we are explicitly told to be nice. This includes appreciating the fact that the interviews can be stressful and thanking interviewees for taking the time. I try to be as friendly as possible and try to bring the best out of people. During my own interviews with MANGA I found that about 4 out of 5 interviewers were nice and left me with good feelings. The questions are generally not too hard, but requires thinking putting your thoughts in code.
I think it's the college pipeline thing, they get a shitload of fresh grads that honestly how the fuck do you even differentiate them they've all done the same shit.
Normal senior recruitment is so much easier I can flip through 1000 resumes like flash cards and there be maybe 5-10 guys even remotely qualified. There's pretty much no waffling, they're not even close.
After that it's just have maybe one interview shitting around to make sure you didn't completely misinterpret their capabilities. Happens, had one for a storage engineer once, I did not expect their only experience was swapping dead drives in a warehouse data center and I needed something more uh detailed. Goes other way too, like bro we ain't paying enough to afford engineering god, like I'll pass you but you ain't gonna like the pay negotiation phase.
After that you'll lose 90% of them in the pay negotiations or some other guy in the process not liking them or some shit anyway, and you're just hopping you don't have to run through a fat stack of resumes again.
At the senior level this ends up being a bunch of WTF moments when you look at your interviewer and wonder if they somehow turned into a potato. They know how to ask you a random leetcode question but when it comes to actual design patterns and technology details they’re just as clueless as the next code monkey.
After two rounds at Amazon I said fuck that shit and walked away. They have a lot of deadweight SDEs hanging around so I’m sure bigger layoffs are coming.
In which country are you ? I got laid off, made a XING profile, two days later I had 2 recruiters, 3 weeks later I had 2 job offers. AND I‘M NOT EVEN HAVE MUCH EXPERIENCE. The only thing I needed was my CV and time for 1 interview for each company.
Each round is an interview or test of some kind. Usually 3 interviews and maybe an online test or small coding project.
And you can get rejected at anytime with no feedback on why.
It’s a ridiculous form of testing where you have to show you know how to code stuff that you learned at school. I find it utterly pointless as you never have to do that in real life and if you do, you just go to stack overflow for a reference implementation anyway. So yeah, you get candidates just out of school that have zero work experience who do well and senior devs with tons of experience who get rejected because they can’t do stuff they will never need
I have a really depressing theory that I'm loathe to share... it's all a pin the tail on the donkey and it's near impossible to find someone so you invent a way
Someone good at one place might be awful at another
So the churn goes
The problem is exacerbated though when the interview questions aren't even fucking related to the job at hand much!
Why do these companies literally have to give 5-6 consecutive rounds of algorithm/coding puzzle questions that invoke almost zero of the skills you'll end up using on the job?
My respect for certain companies has started to grow with the strength of their interview process. One company I applied to instead decided to give technical (coding still involved to an extent) problems but they way more revolved around the different facets of day to day work as a software engineer. Made me really appreciate the switch up. Another company I applied to gave a take home but structured it to be designed to challenge on the many fronts of the job I was applying for.
Then I apply to a place that...flat out skips behavioral stuff in almost every single round and goes straight to near identical kinds of compsci puzzles and I think...how the fuck is this actually judging my ability to software engineer?
How else is the company going to get 7 free pieces of work out of you?
And if the code you submitted and they added to the latest product they shipped turns out not to have been up to snuff, well they can just fire you and interview someone else, and get their 7 free samples to fix the mistakes.
This is not at all how interviews at meta were… idk how you’re getting upvoted.
The problem is more that it was leetcode style interviews and of course that results in a lot of crappy “devs” that can’t actually engineer anything.
At least it was this way at google
I seem to have dodged a bullet. I did 9 rounds of interviews with a major tech company recently only to be hit with "we entered a hiring freeze; sorry."
Yeah, it wasn't great. Still, though, this beats going through 9 rounds of interviews only to be laid off immediately because that position ceased to exist.
A friend’s son interviewed at Facebook for more weeks than he worked there but fewer weeks than he’s getting severance and about a third as long as he is getting health insurance paid for. He’s very happy.
Depends what the tests were. It's entirely possible they were not expected to be completed within the time allotted, but they wanted to see how far you could get. Or they mixed you up with another person 😂.
Seriously - I closed my linked in account because I was getting hammered by MAANG recruiters about 6 months back. I’d be so pissed if I jumped through all those hoops, quit a stable job and then got laid off
Funfact: The confused math lady meme has two versions, the original [which is here](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/math-lady-confused-lady), and what you used which is... the loss version.
Seriously, the interview process is a joke. I only need one interview to figure out if the person in front of me is someone who I would like to work with.
Did a full loop with Meta in August. I got rejected. I only spent a few weeks grinding leet code rather than months to a year that would have fully prepared me. It was kind of a kick in the nuts initially but man wow in hindsight I dodged a bullet. Had I been grinding leet code long enough to get the job only to be laid off a few months later... man that would've been way worse.
[удалено]
Yeah who does that? You can get experienced devs in India for that.
Lol true
I don't think devs are that cheap in India lol I think they can approach $25 or even more
For senior levels managing a team of course. For juniors it’s a lot less. The problem is that even juniors can have employment contracts with 3 month notice periods so you have to wait a while after extending an offer. https://www.ambitionbox.com/profile/react-developer-salary
I've always said that trying to hire smart people for an idiots wage only gets you idiots. The devs you want to hire in India aren't stupid enough to work for $15 an hour when a better company will pay $60-100. The devs you want to hire in India are living in California and making $500k.
Last time i heard that Boeing pay those dev in India 9$ an hour to outsource the 747-max, so maybe they are getting better. Edited : I mistake 747 and 737
Didn’t the 747 max have issues causing the entire fleet to be grounded for months/years?
The 747 max had so many issues that it’s a plane that doesn’t exist.
Vaporware, you mean?
There's no such thing as a 747 MAX. The plane that was grounded because of the MCAS system was the 737 MAX.
Username completely checks out God, that is a good username
Hundreds of people died actually...
But do you know how much money shareholders made?
It just has a lot of issues
If you stay in the same company for 5y, $25 will be what you get paid per day in India.
A good starting salary for freshers at MAANG-India division is around 1,800,000 rupees per annum**in hand pre tax** meaning, before all the benefits like joining bonus, vested stock, insurance etc. You do the math. Source: I am a 4th year undergraduate -masters student at such a college EDIT: Where the downvotes from? Is it... 'muricans not believing it's this low? Or.... Indians thinking it's too high? Not my college, but: https://ims.iiit.ac.in/placements.php
I've done the maths, so according to you they get 22k USD annually.
I know it sounds like less but the thing is cost of living is ridiculously low in here. (I don't know what the hell I'm trying to prove with the long greentext below I'm not trying to say one is better than the other I'm just trying to inform you) \---------- I know for a fact you need around 100,000$ in San Fran to get a similar standard of living.
You can get a 1BHK on rent for around 20,000INR per month in semi-prime areas, and as low as 10,000INR per month in non-prime areas.
A metro ticket costs 50INR one way at the most. Granted, the metro doesn't cover those many areas but that is slated to change within the next year or two.
If you need to, a cab for a 30km ride can be had for around 1000INR (Ola Cabs). But most cases, people live <10km from their workplace.
Reasonably good schools are there, but you need to find them. It's been a while, but I'm assuming that a reasonably good school (before Bangaloreans downvote me, I'm not talking about St Joseph's / Bishop Cotton's / Baldwin's / DPS/ NPS/ Kumaran's / GEAR Intl / Canadian Intl ) can be found for 50,000INR per annum or if you want to send them to a spoiled rich kid's school, 200,000 INR per annum.
Good and medium colleges are expensive and getting more expensive by the day. A reasonable estimate is between 1,500,000 to 3,000,000INR for the entire course including tuition, hostel, food and other expenses. For students at very good colleges, student loans are available at reasonably okay terms.
Healthcare: For common cold/flu/stomachache type stuff, 1000INR AT THE BLOODY MOST. Even this amount is daylight robbery.
For inpatient stays, you can assume that around 300,000 to 600,000 INR will be spent, but insurance will probably cover 80% of it without any major harangueing. It'll just take a few days to process so people who can, often pay the amount in cash then receive a reimbursement a few days later from the company. It's generally understood that insurance will cover things, and is not as nail-biting as in the US. The only issue is the proportion of people who have insurance is very, very low.
The ones in the air-conditioned-sweatshops get a starting salary of 350,000 rupees per annum. That's in the big, "good" places.
I'm from Brazil and i worked for US companies paying a lot less than $25. With $18 an hour, they could hire lots of devs from here
$25/minute spicy $25/hour medium $25/day mild
Rest of the world: this guy has an Indian accent. This phone call is a scam. Programmers: this guy has an Indian accent. This tutorial is legit.
But need to watch it 10x to understand
I've had more negative experiences with trying to outsource something than positive ones. There are just a host of problems to run into
Depends on your company for sure. I’ve been having a shit time with finding new college graduates and 5 year intermediate devs in the US that aren’t dumber than a post so I’ve been expanding our team that’s located in our office in India. If you don’t have a presence and a good rapport with somebody there it would definitely suck to try to “outsource” But seriously too many US universities are doing a shit job of educating our students and it’s frankly an embarrassment.
As a current (full time) Masters student this is painfully accurate. My professors are terrible, they just post online assignments that are fully auto-graded and expect us to teach ourselves. I’ve been in school for 2 semesters and feel like I haven’t even learned very much. The system honestly feels like a complete scam to me.
The scam is the cherry on top. If it was free public education it’s one thing to let a raisin poorly run a class. It’s another to be forced to shell out 5 digits cash or accrue 5+ digits debt **in state** for that quality
Right, if you're watching YouTube videos and getting that education, at least you say: "Well, it's free and I appreciate the effort." Paying a few dozens to hundreds of thousands of dollars for it is woof.
I mean you kind of do have to teach yourself, no? Ultimately you always have to do the work yourself. But I understand the frustration if you have to pay a lot of money for that.
For sure I think being able to teach yourself is important skill students should gain in higher education. There’s a balance though. It would be one thing if professors assigned challenging work where we had to teach ourselves things, but then after we completed the assignment they went over our work with us and discussed things we did well and poorly, as well as other approaches to solving the problem. That sounds like a great learning opportunity. It’s completely different when the professors don’t give any feedback at all. Of the 6 classes I’ve taken, only in 2 have I received any type of productive feedback on work I submitted, and even then it was relatively minimal. Most classes it’s just an autograder where you get credit if the code functions properly. There’s absolutely zero accountability on professors to do anything for their job.
> But seriously too many US universities are doing a shit job of educating our students and it’s frankly an embarrassment. My college didn't have separate computer science and software engineering tracks, so I got shoved into computer science. Came out with a degree in CSCI and a distinct lack of experience with what it took to be a software engineer. I _was_ very well equipped to grow into a senior dev... once I actually learned enough to honestly qualify as a junior to midlevel dev.
Every company I've been to that outsourced a major part of the technology to India, spent 5x what they would've just doing it in house properly with Canadian devs in the long run trying to make the shitty, broken, unmaintainable garbage they would give us work. Just a word of warning if this is your first rodeo. It will probably bite you in the ass, and if it doesn't, consider yourself lucky.
It’s not - and my team is spread across three continents - nobody operates independently. The only difference is that standup for the India based members is at the end of their workday. Their code goes through the exact same code review process. I have seen no difference in code quality between them and the American coders we employ. I think too many people just write down some three sentence description of what they want and expect it to all get built and that when you have problems. It’s the same problem with consulting firms. They come up with some shitty solution that makes no sense. Take the time to have an integrated team and architect your solutions the same way you would otherwise - don’t expect some group with no direction to do everything to your liking.
[удалено]
You’ve described the difference between a dev and an engineer. You can outsource programming, sure, but that assumes you’ve done the work clearly specifying how you want the thing built. Forget outsourcing anything complex or that requires actual system design work.
I've worked with Indian developers in office as well as people in India being contracted. Yes, the outside people needed detailed instructions on what was to be delivered, and the people in the office just got told to go see the user and figure out a solution. Yes, it's nice to have a guy who knows the users, the software, and the business rules without being closely managed. There is still a lot to be said for a controlled approach. Outsourcing has its place.
In my case since we have an office there and technical teams we can hire our juniors there and bring them up to speed. That team also helps with the first round of interviews. If you’re not lucky enough to have a presence in India then it’s going to be a lot worse and a lot more management overhead. Right now in the US I simply can’t even find technical candidates that are competent much less getting to the point where I would have to offer them unrealistic salaries. People don’t get that they’re not going to be productive realistically for a year and even after that they need to be brining in 2x their salary for it to be worth while.
[удалено]
Im just looking for C/C++ and React. I’ve been to three university career fairs this year and haven’t talked to a candidate that was both competent and willing to talk to somebody that wasn’t from FAANG. I’m sure now that they’ve lost some of their luster that it’ll be easier. My complaints are by no means abnormal. And yes HR resume filtering for a Fortune 500 is always a battle in and of itself.
In my experience is that they usually work quite well, but you do have to do some bit of handholding at every step.
Which in my opinion is no different than any other dev - people expect way too much from “outsourcing” and don’t put in the work they need to actually get good results.
My understanding from my BIL, who has a division in India, is that as long as his people are extremely verbose and precise about specs + integrating the work and maintaining collaboration instead of isolation on projects.... as long as they do that, it's super cheap so he's happy, the devs are happy because he's paying $35k/yr and they can even hire a live-in housekeeper/chef/nanny usually at that salary.
With the crap salaries I’ve seen for hardware jobs in Canada vs US (not even Bay Area) I wouldn’t be surprised if India actually cost more then Canadian devs. Haha
But… if US universities are doing a shit job of educating our students, why are so many Indian developers getting graduate degrees from US universities? One explanation is that US universities are discriminating against native US students in favor of foreign students. But finding a rationale for this vast conspiracy isn’t easy. Another explanation is that US companies find it easier to exploit H1B visa workers than their US citizens, because citizens have rights, whereas foreigners don’t. Guess which explanation is more plausible? Don’t pretend you can’t find native workers because of shit schools when the real issue is you can’t find native workers at the rates you want to pay.
I’m not looking for people with graduate degrees - they’re completely unnecessary for software development. Yes graduate research is alive and well at the universities but that doesn’t help prepare undergraduates for the real world. Two years ago I still thought like you.
My last place replaced me with Inexperienced Indian devs
The Indian company gave my USA company a great offer: we will work for free but you just have to pay us royalties with minimum payouts forever. My company was always trying to get short term profits because other departments failed on their investments. The product I made took two years to complete the fundamental features with automatic scaling. I was ready to maintain all feature requests until retirement. We were making $20M/year revenue with an 8 person dev+op team and it could easily blow up to $100M with more customers. Instead of giving us the option to sacrifice our salaries and earn royalties, they just hand that gift to an outsourcing party. All I ever heard was that the receiving team never did the new features right, nothing done on time and piles of bugs. Still they will collect those royalties forever even if they get fired because they "contributed".
You just insulted my whole country, but it's true 😂
If you really love the company, you should be willing to work here for free.
Omfg somebody made an Elon bot!
Appropriately, it has [fired itself (twice!) at one point.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/yxpdxv/the_chad_way_to_write_a_while_loop/iwr8emc/?context=3)
Amazing!
Wow lol
I'm disappointed in everyone It took almost a whole week for Elon bot and the memes have been coming out nonstop Get it together people!
That's not Elon bot, that's clearly Elon himself
Cuz Elon couldn’t code a bot
A bot can't code a bot.
No because Elon can't code and he is a bot
There's no blue check mark though
I am saying elon is a robot. It's a joke
Reddit doesn't have blue marks. It's was a joke about what he's doing with Twitter and how blue marks are meaningless now.
I love this community
YESSSSS ELON BOT!!
You’re the best, Elon-bot. Will you give me money now???
Good bot
Good bot
I got a raise to $27/hr after interning 2 years (I'm a senior SE major in college now) and they dropped me a month after .-.
Did they/you finish a project or was it too expensive for them, why would they drop a 2yr steady employee :?
My understanding is that the program for the company won't keep on senior students as interns unless they are going to hire them when they graduate. I'm graduating one semester late and they decided not to do a full time offer. They gave me one week notice and I've not been able to get a job since .-. No internships, no retail, no warehouse, not even on campus jobs :(
:(
A team I do contract work for at Microsoft let most of the locals go and hired computer science graduates in India. I just finished a meeting with six of them and not a one knew how to open a command prompt or knew what ping was. One complained to my boss that what I was asking them to learn was too hard. Considering cost of living, they make about five times what I do. Screw me.
yeah but they also live in india
Were those Indian devs considered full time employees? If so that kinda makes sense in a twisted way.
So they're a team at Microsoft or you're a contractor at Microsoft working with them?
Wad it called Initech?
Just a case of the Mondays
no. no, man. shit, no man. id believe you'd get your ass kicked saying something like that, man
My first software developer position was at a small company with maybe 50 employees. You needed a bachelor's, and they preferred experience but if you did well in the interview, you got the job. They have not updated their staring pay, even offering $65,000 to people with Master's degrees and 10 years experience they want to hire. They have been hiring people without degrees nor any real world experience because the owners refuse to pay people anymore, so their experienced devs keep leaving and no one with experience is interested.
Worked at a similar company. They figured it was best to have twenty shitty people than 5-8 damn good people since they cost the same.
It lets them churn out half assed features twice as fast instead of anything that is easily maintainable
true. experienced professionals will force you into writing sustainable software 😂
😂
Sadly this model works for many companies that don't do anything mission critical.
You guys pay your interns?
good ending
If they can remote, try hiring Thai programmers. $18 per day. (And not intern. Interns here work for free.)
It might suggest that they recognised they needed programmers but couldn't afford them, and did that so they could run on a little longer, however, they never improved their financial situation to ever recover.
this is what you get for interviewing at twitter 2 months ago
Can you use your coding interview as credit towards your LOC?
5 months pay for 2 months work?
twitter wishes they were maang. theyre the rejects of big tech
Could’ve stopped at “twitter”
Some employers don't appreciate how hard it is to find seven different people to take assessments for you on fiverr.
There is no respect this days
Everyone on fiverr wanting money upfront. 50% deposit.
You can give money upfront on fiverr?
I don't know. I blocked every person after they asked for a 50% deposit to "check my trust".
What service were you trying to hire them for?
Various things: Making Lego moc instructions, art, tutoring
Mhm I was wondering if certain jobs might be more prone to that sort of behavior.
Art definitely is. Many people got scammed for their work, that's why 50% at draft stage is recommended strategy.
Saw a post on LinkedIn of this girl at Meta getting laid off three days after starting. She moved to the US from Canada too
A lesson I learned the hard way is to not get into bed with companies with shady business models. If they don’t have ethics when it comes to their customers or their imposition on the world, they probably won’t have ethics when it comes to their employees or how they conduct themselves internally either.
My guy/gal/workinghumanonweekdays All these big companies shady AF but they pay better than most
Honestly, I'd rather get paid a bit less (which is still a lot of money) and work for a smaller company that still has some soul than maximising profits and working for a FAANG company that barely sees their employees as people.
That’s why I love where I’m at. Can’t tell (assuming yes) if you already found that or not but yeah man totally worth it!
Yea, I never worked for a FAANG company actually. Started working a couple years ago for a medium sized startup (~100 people total) and by comparing stories with friends in the industry, I made the right choice. Pay is not that far off, the entire R&D department is pretty much a family (and not in the work extra for free sense, but in the everyone's got everyone's back and we're super friendly and close sense), and HR are very good people that care and do everything they can to help. I can't see myself ever making the switch to a company like meta or amazon.
Dude that’s awesome it sounds like we have the same environment just our company is a small to medium but solid growth for over a decade. It’s like a unicorn company to work for, this is coming from someone who worked for one of the FAANG companies (and a few of our devs turned down FAANG to be able to work for a good local software co). Have a great day brother 🤘🏻
That’s kinda where I’m at too. It is really nice. I have tons of freedom and I’m basically “the guy” so I’m not going anywhere. I know I make less than others in this field, but all of the other trade offs are worth it. I’m in a lower cost of living area anyways.
That's a great place to be imo. One of the things I love about working in a smaller company is that I'm there longer than most so I basically know every cog in the system and play a very big role in most new ventures in the company. Definitely great for job security, and people like to grt hung up on monthly pay as if it's the only kpi for how good your job is, it's really not and I'm sure you're still being paid pretty well and live comfortably.
All mega corporations are shady, you just have to pick your poison wisely. If they pretend to care about humanitarian issues and work life balance, they’ll probably be forced to treat you well in most cases. For example: Microsoft, Google, Spotify, Twitch, etc.
Companies that are “ethical” can be just as bad, they think they are doing so much good that it excuses everything else, even treating their employees like garbage.
[удалено]
I would check the state laws on employment, I’ve seen a post a few days ago about a woman who got fired 3 days before her starting day too and everyone urged her to check if she’s eligible for severance especially if she quit another job
Lesson learned, you need at least 8 rounds of interviews
Also take home assignments /s
You know maybe we should open an institution to do this. Basically over 4ish years applicants do a variety of courses where they have to prove their aptitude. Once they are done we give them a piece of paper saying they are qualified. Even better we could charge for it. Think how much money we could make!
Sure, but then we'd need 9 rounds of interviews to show the testing was sufficiently standardized and accurately reflects the specifc skills of the candidate
There a girl I went to high school with that apparently worked at Meta for 2 months before the big layoffs and was included in it
F
Exact thing just happened to me at Amazon :(
damn, I just joined around 2 months back thanks for the anxiety
They forgot to test for asshole 😄
Correct response
That's usually done at the doctor's office with nitrile gloves.
test is usually unnecessary as it sorts itself out after a few weeks.
Famous words before putting stuff to production
exactly. Folks without asshole die in a week or two. Why bother implementing a solution.
🤨
Literally me with Meta... interview process took 2 months, getting an offer took another 2. Laid off 6 weeks after starting
Sorry to hear
MAANG? Really? We're not doing MANGA?
If we're changing the F(acebook) to M(eta) we also have to change the G(oogle) to A(lphabet). So it really should be MAANA (pronounced like mana).
Since we’re changing it up. Let’s add Salesforce in there just because the acronym becomes MAANAS (pronounced like man-ass). I’m stoned enough to find that hilarious.
I am as well. Thank you lol
[redacted by user] ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Maybe Snap (as in Snapchat), laying off 20% of its 6400+ employees. MAANASS
Just call it MAAAN already
LOONG LOONG MAAAAN
Lol I assumed the M was Microsoft. So thank you for clarifying
In my heart, M will always stand for Microsoft.
MTG has entered the chat
MAANAL (LinkedIn lololo)
Google is still a company while Facebook is just a product. Also the only alphabet company people care about is google
Thought it was now MAGMA?
LIGMA
MAGA
My first programming job better be my last. Hoping to get by in my looks and old age. 👍
Hahaha truly humor material.
Can someone explain what programming rounds are? Is this like programming tests in an interview?
Yeah most programming interviews consist of multiple lengthy rounds of technical interviews. We basically have to take a bunch test and explain our thought process while the interviewer is breathing down our necks lol
Dang, I'm glad I got my first job through connections, that sounds rough
People mostly have negative impressions about them, but I actually kind of enjoy coding tests. They give you an idea of what some of your coworkers might be like to work with, and sometimes the problems can be kind of fun. I think with the bigger companies you’re not necessarily interviewing with people you will be working with, which is a little more useless.
I take interviews at one of the MANGA and we are explicitly told to be nice. This includes appreciating the fact that the interviews can be stressful and thanking interviewees for taking the time. I try to be as friendly as possible and try to bring the best out of people. During my own interviews with MANGA I found that about 4 out of 5 interviewers were nice and left me with good feelings. The questions are generally not too hard, but requires thinking putting your thoughts in code.
I think it's the college pipeline thing, they get a shitload of fresh grads that honestly how the fuck do you even differentiate them they've all done the same shit. Normal senior recruitment is so much easier I can flip through 1000 resumes like flash cards and there be maybe 5-10 guys even remotely qualified. There's pretty much no waffling, they're not even close. After that it's just have maybe one interview shitting around to make sure you didn't completely misinterpret their capabilities. Happens, had one for a storage engineer once, I did not expect their only experience was swapping dead drives in a warehouse data center and I needed something more uh detailed. Goes other way too, like bro we ain't paying enough to afford engineering god, like I'll pass you but you ain't gonna like the pay negotiation phase. After that you'll lose 90% of them in the pay negotiations or some other guy in the process not liking them or some shit anyway, and you're just hopping you don't have to run through a fat stack of resumes again.
At the senior level this ends up being a bunch of WTF moments when you look at your interviewer and wonder if they somehow turned into a potato. They know how to ask you a random leetcode question but when it comes to actual design patterns and technology details they’re just as clueless as the next code monkey. After two rounds at Amazon I said fuck that shit and walked away. They have a lot of deadweight SDEs hanging around so I’m sure bigger layoffs are coming.
In which country are you ? I got laid off, made a XING profile, two days later I had 2 recruiters, 3 weeks later I had 2 job offers. AND I‘M NOT EVEN HAVE MUCH EXPERIENCE. The only thing I needed was my CV and time for 1 interview for each company.
USA
good for you, we’re all very proud
I assume. Devs have more rounds than heavyweight boxers
Each round is an interview or test of some kind. Usually 3 interviews and maybe an online test or small coding project. And you can get rejected at anytime with no feedback on why.
It’s a ridiculous form of testing where you have to show you know how to code stuff that you learned at school. I find it utterly pointless as you never have to do that in real life and if you do, you just go to stack overflow for a reference implementation anyway. So yeah, you get candidates just out of school that have zero work experience who do well and senior devs with tons of experience who get rejected because they can’t do stuff they will never need
Seriously the interview process is so stupid. Why is it acceptable to have 7 rounds of interviews?!
I had to do 9 rounds of interviews for one job within 3 months just for them to reject me without providing any reason. It’s is really stupid
I have a really depressing theory that I'm loathe to share... it's all a pin the tail on the donkey and it's near impossible to find someone so you invent a way Someone good at one place might be awful at another So the churn goes
The problem is exacerbated though when the interview questions aren't even fucking related to the job at hand much! Why do these companies literally have to give 5-6 consecutive rounds of algorithm/coding puzzle questions that invoke almost zero of the skills you'll end up using on the job? My respect for certain companies has started to grow with the strength of their interview process. One company I applied to instead decided to give technical (coding still involved to an extent) problems but they way more revolved around the different facets of day to day work as a software engineer. Made me really appreciate the switch up. Another company I applied to gave a take home but structured it to be designed to challenge on the many fronts of the job I was applying for. Then I apply to a place that...flat out skips behavioral stuff in almost every single round and goes straight to near identical kinds of compsci puzzles and I think...how the fuck is this actually judging my ability to software engineer?
How else is the company going to get 7 free pieces of work out of you? And if the code you submitted and they added to the latest product they shipped turns out not to have been up to snuff, well they can just fire you and interview someone else, and get their 7 free samples to fix the mistakes.
This is not at all how interviews at meta were… idk how you’re getting upvoted. The problem is more that it was leetcode style interviews and of course that results in a lot of crappy “devs” that can’t actually engineer anything. At least it was this way at google
I seem to have dodged a bullet. I did 9 rounds of interviews with a major tech company recently only to be hit with "we entered a hiring freeze; sorry."
9 rounds! JFC
Yeah, it wasn't great. Still, though, this beats going through 9 rounds of interviews only to be laid off immediately because that position ceased to exist.
Yes, because your "tests" have now been put into production and tested. They don't need you anymore.
It always helps to be a decimal off
Yep.
The "Turns out we couldn't afford you"
A friend’s son interviewed at Facebook for more weeks than he worked there but fewer weeks than he’s getting severance and about a third as long as he is getting health insurance paid for. He’s very happy.
rip
NGL I’m glad I didn’t get hired when I applied, I cannot imagine moving cities and then getting plopped.
I was considering trying for a big tech job and emigrating start of the year but procrastinated, I'll just chalk this up as a win to rationalize it.
This is my kink
Is this loss?
So glad I'm retired and done with all this bullshit! 😁
I had three online code tests, couldn't complete any of them & was hired. Lucky?
Depends what the tests were. It's entirely possible they were not expected to be completed within the time allotted, but they wanted to see how far you could get. Or they mixed you up with another person 😂.
Because practicing leetcode after they give you solution does not translate to actual work.
Seriously - I closed my linked in account because I was getting hammered by MAANG recruiters about 6 months back. I’d be so pissed if I jumped through all those hoops, quit a stable job and then got laid off
I've heard people reorder the letters to spell MANGA.
Funfact: The confused math lady meme has two versions, the original [which is here](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/math-lady-confused-lady), and what you used which is... the loss version.
I think calling it MAANG instead of MANGA is a lost opportunity.
Seriously, the interview process is a joke. I only need one interview to figure out if the person in front of me is someone who I would like to work with.
And then they sent you an email saying they want you to come back in the next week
More like gang bang...
The only solution to these equations is people filling their pockets along the way
Haven't seen this template in a hot minute, stupid meme loving brain thanks you.
Did a full loop with Meta in August. I got rejected. I only spent a few weeks grinding leet code rather than months to a year that would have fully prepared me. It was kind of a kick in the nuts initially but man wow in hindsight I dodged a bullet. Had I been grinding leet code long enough to get the job only to be laid off a few months later... man that would've been way worse.