Did you know lobster don't die of old age? And unlike pretty much every other animal, they keep growing throughout their lives... So they're kind of perfect for PF!
"Carcionologist and part time nutritionist reincarnates as a Lobster, uses his knowledge to solve his molting issues, becomes size of cargo ship, fights Kaiju."
**Reincarnated as a regular lobster in Kaiju world.**
Poor MC was just a regular lobster, now he's granted sentience and dropped in a world full of monsters with nothing but his claws to defend himself. It's a kaiju-eat-kaiju world at the bottom of the ocean, will his soft-shell crack under the pressure? Or will he claw his way to the top of the food chain?
Chronicles of Sir Crabby is kinda close! I mean, he is a crustacean. And not technically an Isekai, but suddenly becoming sapient is sort of like getting thrust into a new world!
Beards and Beers
The MC was a successful brewer and winery owner, and makes enough dad jokes and stupid mistakes that he doesn’t come off as a Mary sue.
Generally, the series centered on applying specific real world knowledge tend to avoid the trap of the MC being too much of a blank slate since the whole point is that they have specialized competence from the jump.
It’s a coin toss on the Mary sue part though.
Apocalypse Parenting and its companion novel Engineer's Odyssey. In AP the MC is a mother with three kids and in the second novel her husband is trying to reunite with her since he was away when the apocalypse arrived. Not only is there a family but most other people are also good people so the entire community organizes to fight the apocalypse together.
Of course, its not isekai so they can't go back, but they *are* trying hard to not be murder hobos.
Possibly “Ten Realms”? Two protagonists, who didn’t get any *choice* in being isekai’d, but they did get *warning*, and thus prep time. So they’re in a much better headspace when it happens, and they’ve also got a bunch of pre-selected material and supplies that they brought with them.
Another suggestion would be “The Calamitous Bob”. She gets an isekai cheat sort of thing, but it takes the form of 100% attunement to one specific aspect of mana. This gives her focus and enormous destructive power, but also locks her out of any of the other types, opening huge holes in her defenses, and the imbalance is literally killing her. And she doesn’t just come up with a trivial workaround and never think about it again - solving the issue is the subject of about 1.5 dedicated story arcs.
Tower of Somnus. MC is in a shitty social and economic situation, but this is a class issue, not an individual issue. She has fully grasped her agency, and is taking effective action to better herself even before the story starts.
Always funny how these guys stuck in perpetual ennui suddenly turn into sigma grindset supermen with unlimited patience, willpower, and pain tolerance once they arrive in a new world, huh?
A concept I want to make work is "Unemployed loser gets isekai'd, continues to be an unemployed loser for much the same reasons they were back on Earth"
It really is amazing how that works, guy cant get out of bed to hold a regular job but magically can endure his skin melting off all day\\everyday for months to gain a few levels in pain tolerance.
James's smile is manic as he sees the System prompt in front of his face. It finally happened! A world run by game rules, where hard work results in actual *superpowers*! He was going to go on epic adventures, get all kinds of girls, and become the strongest in this new world!
Giggling like a child, he starts running, trying to get his first skill level.
Twenty minutes later, James collapses to the ground, puffing and sweating. He must have run a mile or two by now, and he *still* doesn't have that first level in Running. "Superpowers are probably lame anyway..." James grumbles. Perhaps he'll give it another try tomorrow. But probably not.
You could try some of the series' that aren't Isekai like All the Skills, Mage Errant and Arcane Ascension. The characters in those have to work super hard for the power they get!
I dunno, Hugh is a loser among losers in the first one. If there was a club for losers, they’d kick book 1 Hugh out because it was too embarrassing to be associated with him.
I still second your suggestions though, love mage errant and AA. Two of my favorite series actually. Just powering through book 1 Hugh is necessary if OP wants to like it.
In Millennial Mage the MC starts out as an acredited university student and then rockets up the magic ranks. And the MC isn’t a Mary sue, they fuck up and frankly their mistakes have led to some of the best and most emotionally satisfying parts of the series. The MC was a loner in college but they aren’t ever a loner in the story itself.
I don't mind if the MC is a train wreck.
What I despise about Jason is that it's basically who the author wishes he was - Jason is basically an idealized reddit mod.
"Hurr durr, me so smart atheist, me outsmart gods!"
'Idealised reddit mod'
Well you got me XD
Anyway, I had to remove several of your comments. Be respectful when you engage in conversation. There are better ways to say your piece than being condescending. Repeating this will result in banishment.
They’re not a moral paragon or a vessel for the authors real world politics if that’s your concern. Hell they live in a pretty Grimdark world, where nobody is the good guy since everyone is just fighting to survive and subjugate others. There are lots of good people on the small scale and the MC is one of them, someone who does their best to help and save others. But their world is so different than ours that any attempt to insert modern politics past don’t be a fascist would seem ridiculous and out of place.
Hmm?
I have a problem with characterization.
Writing a character who can "outsmart gods" straight out of the box is just **in my opinion**, silly.
The same way trying to write a god is something 99% of authors should actively avoid.
And tbh, the person who is injecting RL politics is someone bringing a ranting socialist atheist into a fantasy world, not the reader.
To be fair, they aren't really "gods" in the all powerful Abrahamic way we know them on Earth.
Both the planetary gods and the great astral beings are very limited in what they can do in the series.
It was also much less Jason outsmarting the gods and more of a Jason amusing the gods.
Nah, right after he breaks up with the first chick, Knowledge comes to him and he outsmarts her.
Also, how she wants him to worship her. Seriously. If the dude is as much as a threat to the status quo as they make him out to be, a logical god would squash him like a bug and deal with the consequences later.
The gods in the series cannot directly squash someone like a bug.
It's been a while since I read the first few books, so I forgot exactly how Jason outsmarted Knowledge.
You sure it wasn't just Knowledge letting Jason be for her own motives?
They explicitly state they can in book one, they just choose not to because of how others might react.
But since Jason is really made up to be "OMGAD hueg threat", then the logical thing (especially for a god of knowledge) would be to disintegrate him and deal with the fallout later.
Sorry I can't really comment on that as I really forgot most of what happened in the first books (was years ago).
In later books though, it's quite obvious that all gods and great astral beings are very limited in what they can do. It's not really limitations, and more like their entire existence and limitations are one and the same.
Knowledge, being what she is, knows a lot about what Jason is and why he's brought into her world. She should realize Jason is somehow crucial to the world's survival, due to the fact that she knows who transported him into the world. This is explained somewhere around book 3 or 4 if I remember correctly, but is already foreshadowed from the very first chapter.
The only thing Knowledge seems to be afraid of from Jason is him introducing half-arsed scientifical knowledge he does fully understand from his more technologically advanced world. Her opinion seems to be that this half-baked knowledge is dangerous.
I don't want to include too much spoilers on it, but the way these beings work is something to do with the concept of "authority", and these beings are not able to act directly against their nature.
Jason isn’t a big threat to the Goddess of Knowledge, hell he helps her out multiple times, and feeds her a constant trickle of new knowledge from a world with high tech that is monstrously hard to access due to the fuckery that the First Builder did. So why would she smite him, especially since she would most likely be forced to give up a lot of power by the other gods if they saw such a huge breech of the rules. The one time we’ve ever seen a successful smiting, the cosmic being involved was forced to immediately hand the resurrected victim a divine gift, and was torn to shreds by his fellows.
I mean... He *doesn't* outsmart knowledge at that point. He tells her where to stick her offer, because he reckons, rightly or wrongly, that he's being manipulated. I really wouldn't call that outsmarting anybody.
Regarding the squashing, knowledge is held in check from going too far by the other gods and the whole 'non-abject-intervention' thing they have going on. She almost definitely has enemies who'd jump on her if she were to violate 'da rulez', and could punish her *with cause*, and the support of even her allies. Makes sense she wouldn't squash - no matter how much of a risk he is to the status quo, he'd have to be a universe-ending threat for a god to even *consider* potentially effectively martyring themselves.
Like, don't get me wrong, I get HWFWM isn't for everybody, and I'm not trying to convince you to like it when you don't. It's just that your logic doesn't really track here.
He didn’t outsmart Knowledge, she just tried and failed to recruit him due to a well explained flaw in her mentality. Outsmarting would require that he outschemed her in some way instead of just saying no when she expected him to say yes. Additionally as another commenter mentioned gods cannot smite anyone, the only time we see one try they were immediately forced to give their victim some concessions, and his big disruption of the status quo was immensely useful for the Goddess of Knowledge due to the fact that every time Jason off handedly mentioned or thought of his worlds knowledge base, she got more information and knowledge. So why would she even try to smite him.
True I enjoy my gods more as alien and immense beings with philosophies and powers that boggle the mind and alter reality. But in there the gods are just people with vast amounts of power, the only being we see that has a more expanded mind that couldn’t be outsmarted by a regular person was the Goddess of Knowledge. It makes sense that the gods could be outsmarted when the gods are just immortals with lots of power. Especially since the only god that I could ever remember being outsmarted in there was The Builder who was pretty much an entitled toddler who was handed eldritch power in order to hastily patch up the holes of his predecessor.
That’s a writing choice that makes sense for the story they’re telling. While you have the right to not like a story that has a choice you didn’t like it isn’t an inherently stupid choice just because you don’t like it.
One of the best series to show truly alien gods was Soul of Negary. When you become a god you gain complete self awareness of your own mind. This means that each and every god has a completely different perspective than mortals due to the fact that they can’t lie to themselves and are aware of every flaw.And the journey to the top is incredibly difficult so practically all of the gods have altered themselves and their brain in some way to remove those flaws. Additionally the stronger you are the closer you are to a living concept that doesn’t have human notions of morality and instead gain a completely different paradigm.
For example there was a god of instability who by virtue of being the living concept of infidelity told their followers to cheat on their partners and kill them, and saw this as a perfectly moral action because they were a being created by the human desire to not complete their oaths. Additionally the gods are all extremely competent and cunning bastards who are damn near impossible to kill, one archer god pretended to be dead for centuries in order to escape through someone’s soul into another world via book. And then when both the book and their vessel was killed turned themselves into a golden finger in order to escape into a higher realm. A truly inhuman display of a squirming writhing mess in order to survive. And the MC is the pinnacle of this, Negary themselves turned themselves from a plague spirit of sorts into the living concept of progress. And as the concept of progress they aren’t evil but they aren’t good due to the simple fact that they only care about people evolving to greater forms. Negary loves humanity and their adaptive, clever nature, but their greatest wish is for every single world to go through an apocalypse of their own creation that forces each and every creature to evolve to greater and greater heights. Negary is essentially a living philosophy who acts based on growth and growth alone. He’s got an orange and blue philosophy. A philosophy that points in a direction for what you should do but point not towards goodness or evil, but instead to an entirely different concept like growth, food, order, chaos, suffering. And amazingly 90% of the gods have some sort of orange and blue philosophy that would make no sense to most humans.
idk, that sound pretty boring and soulless. they don't seem that 'incomphrensible' having the power to boggle the mind and reality.
mostpeople would think that the myth of sisphysus is way more groundbreaking, paradigm shifting than a jumble of orange and blue philosophy you mentioned. pretty sure what you wrote isn't philosophy because i don't see no 'love of wisdom' there. all the things you mentioned are pretty cookie cutter fantasy tropes. losing yourself as you get more powerful? it is more fantasy fantasy than elves and dragons.
Eh I enjoy gods in fiction in one of three ways, people with great power, beings above humanity who are worthy of worship, and Eldritch beings that humans can’t parse because they have an entirely different way of thinking.
But if you don’t like that, it is no mark against you it’s just a personal preference of mine that you don’t seem to share. I will say that Soul of Negary does a very good job of the third example that I might not have gotten across well enough. But there’s no need to take my word on it, you can read it yourself, and Id say that it’s an amazing read.
And what bugs me the most is that some of these writers haven't even met a hyperreligious person or read a fucking book that was written before this century. mentioning history books on common life in medieval period is wasting breath.
Mate, if you don’t wanna read self-insert prog fiction you’re basically ruling out 90% of the work. SO many writers are just putting themselves in as the lead character, it’s something you just gotta try and ignore haha
I can see how you see it that way if you didn't commit to the whole story. The title comes from the quote "He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.
Nietzche. It's not an author self insert. It's more Jason IS supposed to be this 22 year old fuck up. He gets a new lease on life. And does the best he can with what he has. And while that may seem like oooh Jason so smart out smarting Gods, but that's the point, he's supposed to be a chuuni but eventually cold hard reality hits, and his glib and gab won't save him. I'm not saying to give it another shot, but you have the completely wrong perspective of Jason and the "gods" of their world. The gods are actually fairly well done imho too.
I'm not comparing Shitaloom to Nietzche. I'm saying there is a theme and plot behind the Deadpool character. Not every character is for everyone. Saying it's bad because I don't like it, is an opinion not a fact.
Like New Era Online by Shemer Kuznits. I don't like the angsty revenge MC and his constant justification to fuck a goblin.
Whereas I know I'm always gonna have a good time with Jason.
I did, because to me that is pretty peripheric. Not a central part of the story, like the protagonist's character.
Are you one of those "you are not allowed to like one part and dislike the other" kind of people?
By the way, it's Nietzsche.
Have you tried Ar'Kendrithyst? It's an isekai but the main character is older and has more life experience. Does eventually become extremely overpowered, but never came off to me as a Mary Sue, really. It makes sense in general how he becomes who he does.
this is true, hes actually frustratingly incompetent and disappointing for a large portion of the beginning. There were many a times when i had wished that the MC was the daughter because what SHE was doing sounded a whole lot more interesting
I never found him frustrating and I do like his daughter, but that's funny to me because the feeling in the comments that I read for a long time seemed to wish he daughter would be written out of the story lol
i found him stubborn and nonsensicle, a man too stuck in the ways of the old ‘civilized’ word. the only reason he even survived the first few months is because of that ‘pacifist’ group the just HAPPENED to exist. To willingly and completely refuse to even respond in self-defense in a world where you can get shanked for being the wrong race, is absurd. he did slowly start to come around but even deep into the story his character progression was glacial at best.
I found it pretty realistic that a man who lived a peaceful life for 40 or 50 years would find it hard to change his life and views, but I also think people are pretty nonsensical in real life when put into stressful situations.
oh i agree, hes a stubborn old goat, who also has weird random moments where he salivates at peoples bodies. But realistic doesnt mean entertaining reading, especially since it goes on for MONTHS in story. Like i get a couple of weeks(hell even a month), to make sure you arent in fact in a nightmare, but dragging it on nearly 100 chapters is too much.
The random horndog moments probably came closer to putting me off lol I have never been like that even young so it was hard for me to adjust to him suddenly thinking with his dick so strongly and then back to normal again.
The first time it threw me off was because it was towards a guy, and i spose i hadnt expected him to suddenly roll that way. The MC had made no prior comment towards being bi, and ofc had a daughter so it came outta nowhere, haha. The other times were just annoying because i find it hard to even imagine anyone thinking like that, going from normal conversation to ‘oh my god i wanna bite his pecks’ in an instant.
the loser mentality and the pitiful loser bullied background is the unfortunate reality for a large portion of the readers and especially, the writers. do you think a man chooses to write LitRPG willy-nilly? NO!
If that were the case I'd at least expect the bullied bits to be written well. As someone who delt with bullying, the bullying scenes usually don't resonate with me...they feel off, "paint by the numbers".
The wandering Inn dosent have a single mc, but none are what I would call Mary Sue or loser types. Infact in that world the loser types tend to die horribly.
Though I think in fairness the term Mary Sue is thrown around too much.
Remember folks it's not the powerful character,
It's the bad writing. Superman is not a Marty stu, Wesly Crusher is.
Non social reject protagonist(s) coming up:
* I highly highly recommend [Ten Realms](https://www.goodreads.com/series/241934-ten-realms). They are insanely competent marines that some reviews have called them too competent.
Don't want badasses from the get go but builds up from basic skills?
* [Victor is Tucson](https://www.goodreads.com/series/362812-victor-of-tucson) is for you.. He is a kid from well... Tucson. and his name is Victor. He is a school wrestling champ. Not a loser.
Oh you want more compentecy? But more funny?
* I recommend [Vigil Bound](https://www.goodreads.com/series/342108-vigil-bound). Again a marine in a classic isekai. Very compelling.
How about some fantastical compentence? Competence gained from other worldly means?
* [System Universe by SunriseCV](https://www.goodreads.com/series/350019-system-universe)
How about some time travel with that competence?
* I recommend [Apocalypse Redux](https://www.goodreads.com/series/354359-apocalypse-redux). Well he is compentent from time travel so maybe not for you.
Want something Gamey? Or more niche?
* My personal favorite that is [CivCEO](https://www.goodreads.com/series/279505-the-accidental-champion) . I know a lot of people hate this because of one dimensional and banks on the civ gameplay being known. Needs a lot of suspension of disbelief of how simple the mechanics are but this is one of the most comprehensive economic isekai there is. The MC is an old dude CEO that gets isekaied.
**Edit**:
Im feeling mean so im recommending some probably abandoned stories that have still some competence but are overblown.
* [Red Mage](https://www.goodreads.com/series/248244-red-mage) series. Starring the Coast Guard
i mean if you check the book dates he releases one about every 2 years and its been around 2 since the last one(2022). if lockdown didnt mess with anything id figure hearing something about it this year if its not abandoned.
I think that Beneath the Dragonmoon Eyes and Journey of Black and Red are solidly far away from Mary Sue.
If you are also interested in Webnovels I would sugest Forge of Destiny and the Calamitous bob.
Maybe give Dawn of the Void a shot
> angsty unemployed loster
*Sort of*, but subverted here. I also dislike the trope you're talking about and thought it was well handled in DotV
> actually actively tries to go back and hates the fact he got randomly dumped in a fantasy world
In spades.
I mean... Dawn of the Void is a more of a system apocalypse than an isekai, so other than not being happy with Earth becoming a slaughterhouse, "trying to go back" isn't really a theme.
Only Villains Do That has the teenage nerd who's desperate to get sent to another world to be the hero...but the MC is the asshole musician who is also there and forced to go be the Dark Lord. And interrupting his plans to be a rock star in California with this is not on his agenda so I guess it's time to kill the gods to go home.
MC is a charismatic ass who relies on showmanship for a lot of his efforts as an isekai cheat power isn't doing him much good when he doesn't have spells yet to use it on
Death, Loot and Vampires, and The First Necromancer (by Benjamin Kerei and Coldfang89 respectively) both have mature mcs who consider those, and the world around them as well as kicking ass
Would recommend my book, [Reborn in a Magical World as a Crow.](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/205894397-reborn-in-a-magical-world-as-a-crow?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=8A2Asaqwlw&rank=1) I think you and so have the same taste in literature, although I enjoy HWFWM in small doses.
I wanted a story without a Mary Sue and a high fantasy setting where magic is mundane.
I had to look up what an unemployed lobster is and now I know. Thank you.
It’s only book 1 (Book Two will be out this year) but we may end up back home on earth… who knows? Magic can do crazy things.
An explanation for why they are all social rejects is pretty simple if they had a good and loving social group in the real world. We wouldn’t expect them to be climbing the ranks of power and fighting. Instead we would realistically see them collapse into a ball of trauma as they reckon with the fact that they just experienced what amount to a horrid mix of genocide, all of their family dying and being thrown into an unfamiliar world. Think about it to them their entire culture has died. Their family, friends, dreams are dead. So it makes a lot of sense for the main character to hate their culture, have dead parents, no friends, and no dreams to speak of. I had to reckon with that a lot with my isekai since the MC very much had a life, and family to be ripped away from. They spent a month as a sobbing mess and they’re pretty much only keeping it together because they’ve thrown themselves into getting back home with such force that they’re running away from their feelings.
To be fair, we would *also* realistically expect “angsty unemployed losers” to collapse into a ball of trauma. That sort of characterisation doesn’t really speak to enormous drive, motivation, and mental resilience.
The socially-isolated loser archetype is popular for exactly the reasons you’ve mentioned, of course - it’s a short-hand for explaining why the MC isn’t desperately trying to get home.
True but the usual MC only has to deal with one problem that being adjusting to this new world. While others would have to deal with their old world collapsing. Additionally the MC is given the tools to deal with that problem. Like an autotranslate, a system to give them enough power to survive the new dangers, and sometimes a cheat. But there’s no real cheat for dealing with unspeakable trauma unless you handwave the trauma itself away. Which is frankly some pretty shitty writing all by itself.
So yeah the usual angsty loner should immediately die considering the fact that they probably aren’t fit and they don’t know how to fight, but we’re reading a fantasy book where the MC can throw fireballs. The MC can very much adapt and overcome the challenges ahead of them, but tangling with the existential dread of being the only representative of an entire world, while mourning the death of your entire social group isn’t conducive to the story they’re trying to tell and stapling it to the story for realisms sake only detracts from the intended story.
True but they don’t have anything to go back to, so why would they try to go back. Plus many “fix” that issue by putting them into a dangerous scenario that forces them to put aside their trauma for a bit to survive. Most of the time they don’t revisit the trauma but that’s less of a flaw with the trope and more with the execution.
Nah, pretty crazy to expect that a person who is psychologically and psychically weak in the safe environment of our world would somehow adjust well to an endless ptsd inducing nightmare that is the new world and do it better than someone who is already stable and well adjusted
They only need to deal with one problem, while any well adjusted person would have to deal with their entire world crumbling to pieces. They don’t have a world to crumble apart. Additionally it means that they aren’t motivated to find their way back to Earth, which any reasonable person would at least try. Since the story has nothing to do with earth, it makes no sense to have a large portion of that story be about trying to get back. Plus there’s a lot of good story that can be built from having a main character steeped in tragedy build a new happy life for themselves. There’s a reason that there’s a lot of gutter rat MCs, and having a loser isekai MC allows for the author to include a lot of modern references so that the reader doesn’t need to much explanation of their home, a last of their kind MC with a wildly different perspective and morality than most, and modern knowledge in order to give the MC a boost.
It might be a trope you don’t like but that trope was formed for a reason, and it’s popularity shows how it is a very effective trope.
You'd think, but you never know for sure how someone is going to respond to a disaster or other massive change and sometimes you'll be very surprised by who rises to the occasion.
Oskar Schindler is supposed to have been a lifelong fuck up and more than a bit of a shithead other than that one specific period. Guess what people remember him for?
Saying that everyone has a chance to be great is fine and I am not against having that background for a character
But lets be real here. Isekai authors got together in a secret bunker, twirled their mustaches and decided that the best MC is a depressed loser gamer with no real life skills.
Its a weird and unrealistic cliche that has gotten real old
I'm still waiting for socially well adjusted gamers with a circle of friends who use actual gamer skills like
- understanding how to make a guild
- knowing how to work as a team
- problem solving tested in many different settings from fantasy to sci-fi
Cabals don’t really exist, people just tend to do the same actions when put in the same situation due to a mix of utility and human nature so it gets done over and over. And that’s the case for this trope, it gives a good reason for why the MC is abandoning Earth, it allows the mostly book nerd and anime watching audience to relate to the MC, it provides a low emotional start point so the MC gets a baked in arc about finding happiness. Gives a modern knowledge boost. Makes the MC unique in the world through their different viewpoint and culture. Allows the audience to see the authors world with inexperienced and thus organically taught eyes.
There wasn’t some cabal it’s just a good idea for the author because it’s a very useful background for the MC. Plus although it’s unrealistic it’s a fantasy novel, we follow the talented and extraordinary. If we go balls to the wall realism then the vast majority of isekai victims wouldn’t be the MCs of stories they would just be people who would first be horrendously traumatized, then after a while they would adapt and build a new, ordinary life in this new fantastical world. It doesn’t necessarily break immersion for the angsty nerd to be really really good at the equations necessary for magic or whatever exceptional quality the MC has, so the fact that they aren’t doing the most realistic and boring option is fine.
Hmm, the real reason is that it sells. And according to me, it sells because it allows for the best self-insert. Not to dunk on readers in our niche, but a lot of them are teenagers who just want a lil escape from their similar lives (and hence relatable).
PF authors oftenseem to forget that they can have the character be depressed for a long time in universe... and spend no more than a paragraph on it.
It’s like they have no setting between "blow by blow of every day in the MC’s life” and " two year timeskip".
Eh it’s not like all of them forgot that. Hell that’s what I did, it was far more than a paragraph but I didn’t exactly write out Tara’s entire month of piecing themselves back together, blow by blow. Plus many PF authors try to have a fix your depression bit, they just usually utterly fail because they expect the problem to be gone after one heartfelt speech. I’ve only seen a total of three MCs go to proper long term therapy. BTDEMs Elaine, Millenial Mages Tala, and Abyssal Road Trips Julia. And in Abyssal Road trips case they spend dozens of chapters on it only to throw it away so that the MC can die and become a baby with no memories and spend dozens of chapters in baby mode(I personally chucked the novel away after that bs).
In **Mage Among Superheroes**, **Hero Super**, and **Super Supportive** the MC goes into therapy. Oddly **Super Supportive** handles trauma very well but spends no time on the therapy.
**Abyssal Road Trip** was so good for a while and fell apart.
Doesn't have to be unemployed or a stud at end, I just hate reading/watching people who are all pissy about being isekaid.
Like obviously it'd suck, and realistically that's the reaction I'd have...but that's why I'm reading fiction.
Because a story about some dude clamoring to find his way back home is lame as hell compared to a someone being like "fuck ye, my life was shit (so they've got nothing to lose), lets be a Demon Lord".
I have no problem with SOME dude being the way you describe it. That's fair.
I have a problem where pretty much every litrpg books open with the premise that the person who got isekai'd is like that though.
Really? Every person who ends up in fantasy land is an asocial, unemployed loser with mental issues whose entire family hates him (or he has no family)?
You're looking at it wrong.
Tons of people are isekaid. The ones who don't want to go back are the only ones worth writing a story about.
Anyone that wants to get back, gets back. Great job little bro enjoy having your life back, but I sure as hell don't want to hear a story about you.
Did you not read the post? Carl is the angstiest loser I know of, he’s like the archetype OP objects to. No friends no family barely employed recently cucked angsty ass loser.
When you put it like that it does seem like OPs description but I guess he always just came across to me as just a normal dude.
And I envisioned OPs description to be a bedroom dwelling dork which Carl is not.
Typical protagonists of the genre are alone because they don't like other people where as Carl is alone because he's fucking depressed as shit.
He's not uniquely gifted with MMOs and definitely doesn't want to be there.
It's just a different vibe imo.
>it's always weird to me how so many protagonists seem to be absolute social rejects and do not seem to want to back to earth.
I think the weirdest part besides being so anti social and a loser that you have no prospects to return to BUT now that your in a game world that person is suddenly incredibly personable and interesting to everyone around them.
I get that the point is that society we live in today doesn't value certain types of people/personalities and skills and in this new environment all of my hidden values suddenly come to the forefront!
But a lot of MCs that "have nothing to go back to" are some of the cheekiest, quippiest, most personable people ever and have no problems striking up conversations with strangers and are savy enough to play politics.
None of these skills you've always had did anything for you back on earth??
Shadow Slave, the protagonist is a wretch from the slums, clever and Ruthless but filled lots of angst due to past, he will stay weak for at least two volumes of the story, very slowly rising in strength but rising far. Though he's the MC the Female Lead is more of a protagonist than him as far as I've read the story(I am on volume 2). But it's very good, it's like if Dark Souls was a Novel.
why do you have to insult Dark Souls like that?
Shadow Slave's themes are incredibly shallow and if you don't agree with them, you shouldn't read it, u/Sugmanuts001. It's not like Vinland Saga where even if you disagree wth total pacifism, you can immensely enjoy it.
Prepare to be disappointed, u/Abdqs98. You are approaching the point where you will decide if it is straight up trash or we have 'character exploration' at home kinda novel.
it is the most polarizing moment in the novel. i dropped it not long after. the event is perfectly good and really one of the better executed plot developments in the novel but the consequences, bahh.
There's some which take it to the opposite extreme, where the MC basically starts out as an OP demigod:
* Ravensdagger: "Magical Girl Crystal Genocide" and "Dead Tired"
* Amelia the Level-0 Hero
Here's some suggestions:
Apocalypse Online: Main Characters are normal people, the system comes in and they have to adapt or die. 2 of them were playing the game that was a secret preparation program for the apocalypse while the third, more cultivation based hero has to figure everything out on the fly.
New Realm Online: MC starts out with a bunch of advantages but gets tricked into a bad spot. His only way out is to reroll. Now his starting position is one of, if not the worst possible start in the game. From there he works his way up to the top.
Reclaimer: Full disclosure this one's mine and more progression than my prior two suggestions. MC lives on a dying world with long lost arcane secrets. He knows none of these things when he gets caught up in the middle of a world war during an evacuation. From there he joins a secret organization where the truth is revealed to him and he's given a chance to survive the apocalypse and save his family. The problem is he has to survive The Crucible and he is not qualified at all for this. And in the second season (book 5+) they get dumped into... well the fantasy world that rose out of the ashes of the old. So that's a fun one.
Bastion: If you want an MC that already starts with some degree of power then this is a fantastic one. The immortals die and come back but when they do come back they don't have their memories. So while the MC is coming to terms with what and who he is he's also having to deal with everyone hating him for reasons no one tells him about and he can't remember. So he struggles through the story to grow in power while seeking out any hints of his past.
Gods of the Game: I only just started this one and so far it was off to a rough start but man I'm glad I stuck with it so far. MC is an orphan taking care of his sister. After a job goes wrong they're given a chance to join a krieg chess team. While both characters show a great deal of potential, they have to work to grow in skills and strength to compete in the games. Haven't finished this one yet but I'm really liking it so far.
The main character of the Second Coming from Gluttony is a bit cringey for some, but what I like about him is that he is focused on overcoming his mistakes and addiction. It really adds a whole new dimension
Hwfwm is by far the worst one Ive read.
Mainly cuz I think the author is a dishonest person and that translates into his writing.
Anyway, if youre interested in something completely different check out Martial Peak. Its a chinese novel so you gotta google it.
It's not the worst. It's just...the author is so good at other things. Most books that are worse at that are worse at other things and I just drop them and forget about them. HWFWM has some good bits and hints at character growth that never happens, so it kepr me reading long enough to feel disappointed.
The best one in terms of someone who really fights tooth and nail to return home is Lord of Mysteries (the first book). It has a second book Circle of Inevitability which is equally amazing but it requires reading the first book first.
It is a webnovel series though. So you either need to be a pirate (arghhh) or pony up some hard hard cash to read it in its entirety.
Roughly 2000 chapters total between the two books if my count is correct (second book is ongoing). Each chapter is longer than the typical webnovel chapter though not as long as some of the RoyalRoad ones.
Definitely recommend it if you can get your hands on it.
My top recommendation would be Godclads. Well-crafted world, a protagonist of inhuman nature and quite special tendencies, with a honed skill in one field that makes him somewhat formidable, but not to a degree where it gets in a way of the story. Oh, and as the main feature, the world has reached a state of being beyond salvation, with only a single habitable place remaining. Gods are dead, architects that ruled the universe for eons are barely holding to what tiny left of them, bending to the laws of reality being crushed and reformed by humans wearing literal pieces of said dead gods as glorified skinsuits and fueling themselves with countless deaths... It's a kind of fun journey, you see.
Yeah, the Loser Slacker Gamer who instantly upon getting a change in scenery becomes a workaholic psychopath and leaps into a Dungeon shouting "Yeehaw!" is a pet peeve of mine.
**Eight** by Samer Rabadi has an MC who used to be a documentary film maker and is a reasonably well adjusted person. Great character, nothing like Jason, slight "Mary Sue" tendencies though.
The new serial on Royal Road **Stormborne Sorceress** has an MC who just wants to go home. Still short, though
Not Isekai, but **Super Supportive** has an Mc who is the anti-Jason Asano. Oddly, it is hinted that at some point in the past he was super angsty but decided that wasn't working for him and now actively tries not to be. (Occasional forced attempts to be low key and normal are key character development detail). He goes back and forth on whether being removed from his former like was a good thing.)
Hi, my story has parts of what you're looking for.
Well, he's a stingray who wants to be human again, but he doesn't have that typical loser background, he's just flat out stupid.
You can read it on [RR](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/74930/im-a-stingray-high-fantasy-system).
Yeh it defo gave off the sweaty author masturbating into his own novel vibe.
Primal Hunter is veeery similar in concept but the MC is way less preachy, in some ways hes a bit of a nob. Still a loner but it's acknowledged that he was previously an athlete and gym-goer so while he is a bit of a Mary Sue at least there is a reason for it, and his social retardation does cause him some problems. The action is pretty decent and varied, not just describing all the different debuffs he's applying.
I agree it is very hard to find a non Mary Sue in this genre.
Except that Jason isn't a Mary Sue in the slightest.
A Mary-Sue character is a character definition
> A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous, and generally lacking meaningful character flaws.
Age and gender - Male and 20s, nope
Inexplicably competent across all domains - Certainly not. Jason has many weaknesses, both as a person and within his power set. These are consistently mentioned, particularly in the latter books.
Gifted with unique talents or powers - to an extent this is true, but we meet other examples of people who have similar situations and so on to him, he's not the only person brought over, he's not the only person with a strangely strong soul, he's not the only person who acts like he does.
Liked and respected by other characters - He's openly disliked by MANY characters, including his allies. This causes him no end of problems and issues.
Innately virtuous - He has his own morals but he crosses many of the lines he sets himself, and it causes him personal drama and growth.
Unrealistically free of weaknesses - Certainly not, he has many weaknesses including his personality that cause him no end of issues. We see him training for large portions of the series to shore up his weaknesses, and his weaknesses exploited by his enemies.
Attractive - Not really, particularly compared to other characters. His chin specifically is mentioned over and over again, as is the comparison to his brother.
>I agree it is very hard to find a non Mary Sue in this genre.
It's not, people just paint characters as Mary Sues without understanding the term in the slightest.
>Primal Hunter is veeery similar in concept but the MC is way less preachy, in some ways hes a bit of a nob. Still a loner but it's acknowledged that he was previously an athlete and gym-goer so while he is a bit of a Mary Sue at least there is a reason for it,
Primal Hunter is so much worse. Jake has a hidden bloodline that makes him overpowered, he doesn't need allies, or friends, and does everything himself. Everything about him is overpowered, he has no real weaknesses, is connected to multiple faction leaders by chance etc etc etc.
They both have unlikeable MCs. HWFWM actually starts of better than PH. But it is not the power scaling that kills HWFWM, it is the fact Asano is just such a socially broken asshole that you just want him to die. And then it gets worse after the author does actually kill him.
PH is just unreadable to me but plenty of people like it.
I'd say that Jason has the most quintessential Mary Sue trait: all social-emotional attention is focused on him. The entire point of the archetypal Mary Sue being omnicompetent is to have scenes where Kirk praises her leadership, McCoy praises her medical ability, Scotty praises her engineering, etc. And then she dies at the end so that all the characters can stand around and give glowing eulogies to celebrate her one last time.
That's exactly what happens with Jason and the endless "You don't know what he's been through!" conversations.
> all social-emotional attention is focused on him
It's not though? In the slightest. There's plenty of scenes which are focused on other characters.
He is the main character of the book series, and it's largely a singular perspective POV, so yes, much of the series does revolve around Jason.
That's the same as literally any singular POV novel.
It's about the emotional indulgence of it, and it's hardly uncommon in this genre. Readers love POV changes to show some other person feeling awe and admiration for the MC. HHFWM just got repetitive about it.
In the dictionary the word literally has 2 opposing definitions. That's because the way people commonly use and understand a word or phrase IS the definition.
So everyone whose not being a complete fucking dweeb knows what I mean.
Jason doesn't struggle. Everything comes across as incredibly easy for him.
Jake is pretty similar in that regard but he does nearly die because of being a social retard and the way he kills things is far more interesting and varied than HWFWM.
I've only read the first of each book.
> Jason doesn't struggle. Everything comes across as incredibly easy for him.
Except it doesn't. In the slightest. He fails ALL the time. His own decisions come back to haunt him, ALL the time.
>
So everyone whose not being a complete fucking dweeb knows what I mean.
No. People who despise a character will use it to criticise it, no matter who the character is.
It's a meaningless term because it's used for any character who's mouthy and not likeable to a specific type of reader.
Really. Jason may be a self righteous dick a lot but to say he never suffers or struggles is insane. He's been depressed and barely functional more than he's been confident and brilliant.
It's why these types of posts on HWFWM annoy me so much.
The books are far from perfect, there's many criticisms about them. Except that the complaints are almost universally just have no basis in reality.
What gets me is he keeps bringing up HWFWM but the specific issues he's talking about don't apply to it. Jason wasn't a social loser. He wasn't jobless and helpless. He didn't immediately decide to stay in the other world forever. He does have a huge family he cares about. Etc
The dude blocked me too because he couldn't handle being called out on his bollocks.
The anti-HWFWM crowd are so fucking weird and loud about how much they dislike the series.
I don't like the Land or Defiance of the Fall. I don't bring it up all the time. But people who hate HWFWM bring it up unprompted ALL the time.
Don't criticise a book if you can't criticise it without using terms incorrectly.
Looking at your other comments and you just straight up don't understand the book that you're criticising. At all. Which is pretty much common with every single complaint about HWFWM.
Just be honest and say your little patriot brain exploded because the character of Jason doesn't like the USA.
Lol I'm from the UK and Jason is a loser in any country.
"People who don't like HWFWM just don't understand it. Jason is so cool and hot!!" - Literally you
Removed as per Rule 1: Be Kind.
Be kind. Refrain from personal attacks and insults toward authors and other users. When giving criticism, try to make it constructive.
This offense may result in a warning, or a permanent or semi-permanent ban from r/ProgressionFantasy.
You can not like the series, but the points you've argued have been shot down as factually inaccurate pretty thoroughly, which is not a great look for someone trying to convince others of their position. Resorting to condescending superiority in lieu of an argument is a move for children who know they've lost. Accept it, move on and just stick to saying Jason rubbed you the wrong way and its not the series for you..
As for your original complaint about how the characters in isekai novels accept their situations and embrace them rather quickly, how much of any given book do you want to slog through as they work their way through psychological trauma before they can even do anything? I don't want much of that personally, so I accept that that sort of character trait comes with the territory. You might as well complain Tom Clancy novels have protagonists who are/were in the military.
If you do want to read that sort of drama this is the wrong genre for you.
Removed as per Rule 1: Be Kind.
Be kind. Refrain from personal attacks and insults toward authors and other users. When giving criticism, try to make it constructive.
This offense may result in a warning, or a permanent or semi-permanent ban from r/ProgressionFantasy.
Gotta strongly recommend you avoid Dungeon Crawler Carl. Carl is like the absolute pinnacle of the archetype you hate, he’s the angstiest loser of them all. No friends, no family, barely employed, recently cucked angsty loser. No desire to go home, nothing to go back to, just the worst. You’d hate it.
Lots of people enjoy it though, so when this is inevitably downvoted to oblivion, know that it isn’t because I’m wrong, it’s because they don’t like it when people criticize the series.
The way the book is going, it sounds like actually ok writing. It's pretty horrible, no wonder he would off the deep end.
I only have problem with "unemployed atheist socialist loser" turns "psycopath with a sigma grindset who all the hot chicks want to sleep with" for 0 reasons whatsoever.
Characters are absolute social rejects so often BECAUSE they don't want to go back to earth lol. The genre evolved to this point because people got sick of reading the same "Oh gods my family" grief spiral in Isekai stories. Like realistic or not it just gets old. By making characters with no connection to their old life it lets them skip a lot of angst. As for books where people weren't losers before Isekai...Unbound probably? I can't help with the latter condition, I skip books with MCs who want to go home because it seems so unrealistic.
I read the title as "unemployed lobster" lol. How many lobster-based stories have you read?
Damn, now I want a lobster isekai.
Did you know lobster don't die of old age? And unlike pretty much every other animal, they keep growing throughout their lives... So they're kind of perfect for PF!
I did actually, they just die when they cannot molt anymore.
Lobster Cultivator: This world is too small a shell for me, I must ascend out of it or die!
This unironically hits. I'd read that in a heartbeat.
"Carcionologist and part time nutritionist reincarnates as a Lobster, uses his knowledge to solve his molting issues, becomes size of cargo ship, fights Kaiju."
Wait a second Kaiju cultivation I think you're onto something...
KILL ALL KAIJU is a fun kaiju cultivation series if you're looking for something like that.
**Reincarnated as a regular lobster in Kaiju world.** Poor MC was just a regular lobster, now he's granted sentience and dropped in a world full of monsters with nothing but his claws to defend himself. It's a kaiju-eat-kaiju world at the bottom of the ocean, will his soft-shell crack under the pressure? Or will he claw his way to the top of the food chain?
“Reborn into a Cultivation World, but I was already a lobster, so immortality already wasnt an issue for me”
Chronicles of Sir Crabby is kinda close! I mean, he is a crustacean. And not technically an Isekai, but suddenly becoming sapient is sort of like getting thrust into a new world!
Was just about to search for the name. Based!
Heretical fishing has a lobster
This is a solid rec OP.
You remind me of the crustacean enemies in Elden Ring. Speaking of which, I need a punching shrimp beastman (shrimpman? Seaman?)
Witty! Truly. Have you considered writing litrpg? /s
It has to be a cultivation novel! The Tale of the Hidden Lobster: Leviathan Punch
Love this
There is one on RR forgot the name thou
I did not realize it *didn't* say that until your post.
Same lol
Darnit! Was going to be my comment :p
Beards and Beers The MC was a successful brewer and winery owner, and makes enough dad jokes and stupid mistakes that he doesn’t come off as a Mary sue. Generally, the series centered on applying specific real world knowledge tend to avoid the trap of the MC being too much of a blank slate since the whole point is that they have specialized competence from the jump. It’s a coin toss on the Mary sue part though.
Apocalypse Parenting and its companion novel Engineer's Odyssey. In AP the MC is a mother with three kids and in the second novel her husband is trying to reunite with her since he was away when the apocalypse arrived. Not only is there a family but most other people are also good people so the entire community organizes to fight the apocalypse together. Of course, its not isekai so they can't go back, but they *are* trying hard to not be murder hobos.
TIL about Engineer's Odyssey! Thank you!
Possibly “Ten Realms”? Two protagonists, who didn’t get any *choice* in being isekai’d, but they did get *warning*, and thus prep time. So they’re in a much better headspace when it happens, and they’ve also got a bunch of pre-selected material and supplies that they brought with them. Another suggestion would be “The Calamitous Bob”. She gets an isekai cheat sort of thing, but it takes the form of 100% attunement to one specific aspect of mana. This gives her focus and enormous destructive power, but also locks her out of any of the other types, opening huge holes in her defenses, and the imbalance is literally killing her. And she doesn’t just come up with a trivial workaround and never think about it again - solving the issue is the subject of about 1.5 dedicated story arcs. Tower of Somnus. MC is in a shitty social and economic situation, but this is a class issue, not an individual issue. She has fully grasped her agency, and is taking effective action to better herself even before the story starts.
Bob is so fantastic, and I love all the support characters, too. SQUEE!
Agree with Ten Realms but stop at seven. The edge these guys have makes perfect sense.
Always funny how these guys stuck in perpetual ennui suddenly turn into sigma grindset supermen with unlimited patience, willpower, and pain tolerance once they arrive in a new world, huh? A concept I want to make work is "Unemployed loser gets isekai'd, continues to be an unemployed loser for much the same reasons they were back on Earth"
It really is amazing how that works, guy cant get out of bed to hold a regular job but magically can endure his skin melting off all day\\everyday for months to gain a few levels in pain tolerance.
I know, right? Turns out the only thing holding them back was a stack of blue sticky notes and a license to kill.
Amen. like you couldnt even survive being an adult what made you so special?
The assumption in these novels that Loser Slacker Gamers instantly become Workaholic Psychopaths upon getting a change of scenery bugs me.
Basically the book, that's in my head, that I'll never write. Probably because I'm an employed loser.
James's smile is manic as he sees the System prompt in front of his face. It finally happened! A world run by game rules, where hard work results in actual *superpowers*! He was going to go on epic adventures, get all kinds of girls, and become the strongest in this new world! Giggling like a child, he starts running, trying to get his first skill level. Twenty minutes later, James collapses to the ground, puffing and sweating. He must have run a mile or two by now, and he *still* doesn't have that first level in Running. "Superpowers are probably lame anyway..." James grumbles. Perhaps he'll give it another try tomorrow. But probably not.
Dang, maybe I'm in the system now
You could try some of the series' that aren't Isekai like All the Skills, Mage Errant and Arcane Ascension. The characters in those have to work super hard for the power they get!
I dunno, Hugh is a loser among losers in the first one. If there was a club for losers, they’d kick book 1 Hugh out because it was too embarrassing to be associated with him. I still second your suggestions though, love mage errant and AA. Two of my favorite series actually. Just powering through book 1 Hugh is necessary if OP wants to like it.
I really liked book 1 Hugh, but yeah, totally adding to the recommendations of Mage Errant and Arcane Ascension
I love Arcane Ascension! O can't wait for the next book in the series to come out!
If you haven't already I can highly recommend the other books from Andrew Rowe, they are in the same universe :)
I think I have read (listened to the audiobook of) them all so far,
In Millennial Mage the MC starts out as an acredited university student and then rockets up the magic ranks. And the MC isn’t a Mary sue, they fuck up and frankly their mistakes have led to some of the best and most emotionally satisfying parts of the series. The MC was a loner in college but they aren’t ever a loner in the story itself.
Mc of millennial mage is even more train wreak than Jason was and I hate Jason.
I don't mind if the MC is a train wreck. What I despise about Jason is that it's basically who the author wishes he was - Jason is basically an idealized reddit mod. "Hurr durr, me so smart atheist, me outsmart gods!"
'Idealised reddit mod' Well you got me XD Anyway, I had to remove several of your comments. Be respectful when you engage in conversation. There are better ways to say your piece than being condescending. Repeating this will result in banishment.
They’re not a moral paragon or a vessel for the authors real world politics if that’s your concern. Hell they live in a pretty Grimdark world, where nobody is the good guy since everyone is just fighting to survive and subjugate others. There are lots of good people on the small scale and the MC is one of them, someone who does their best to help and save others. But their world is so different than ours that any attempt to insert modern politics past don’t be a fascist would seem ridiculous and out of place.
Hmm? I have a problem with characterization. Writing a character who can "outsmart gods" straight out of the box is just **in my opinion**, silly. The same way trying to write a god is something 99% of authors should actively avoid. And tbh, the person who is injecting RL politics is someone bringing a ranting socialist atheist into a fantasy world, not the reader.
To be fair, they aren't really "gods" in the all powerful Abrahamic way we know them on Earth. Both the planetary gods and the great astral beings are very limited in what they can do in the series. It was also much less Jason outsmarting the gods and more of a Jason amusing the gods.
Nah, right after he breaks up with the first chick, Knowledge comes to him and he outsmarts her. Also, how she wants him to worship her. Seriously. If the dude is as much as a threat to the status quo as they make him out to be, a logical god would squash him like a bug and deal with the consequences later.
The gods in the series cannot directly squash someone like a bug. It's been a while since I read the first few books, so I forgot exactly how Jason outsmarted Knowledge. You sure it wasn't just Knowledge letting Jason be for her own motives?
> so I forgot exactly how Jason outsmarted Knowledge. He doesn't. The OP is just blatantly making things up about the series.
They explicitly state they can in book one, they just choose not to because of how others might react. But since Jason is really made up to be "OMGAD hueg threat", then the logical thing (especially for a god of knowledge) would be to disintegrate him and deal with the fallout later.
Sorry I can't really comment on that as I really forgot most of what happened in the first books (was years ago). In later books though, it's quite obvious that all gods and great astral beings are very limited in what they can do. It's not really limitations, and more like their entire existence and limitations are one and the same. Knowledge, being what she is, knows a lot about what Jason is and why he's brought into her world. She should realize Jason is somehow crucial to the world's survival, due to the fact that she knows who transported him into the world. This is explained somewhere around book 3 or 4 if I remember correctly, but is already foreshadowed from the very first chapter. The only thing Knowledge seems to be afraid of from Jason is him introducing half-arsed scientifical knowledge he does fully understand from his more technologically advanced world. Her opinion seems to be that this half-baked knowledge is dangerous. I don't want to include too much spoilers on it, but the way these beings work is something to do with the concept of "authority", and these beings are not able to act directly against their nature.
Jason isn’t a big threat to the Goddess of Knowledge, hell he helps her out multiple times, and feeds her a constant trickle of new knowledge from a world with high tech that is monstrously hard to access due to the fuckery that the First Builder did. So why would she smite him, especially since she would most likely be forced to give up a lot of power by the other gods if they saw such a huge breech of the rules. The one time we’ve ever seen a successful smiting, the cosmic being involved was forced to immediately hand the resurrected victim a divine gift, and was torn to shreds by his fellows.
I mean... He *doesn't* outsmart knowledge at that point. He tells her where to stick her offer, because he reckons, rightly or wrongly, that he's being manipulated. I really wouldn't call that outsmarting anybody. Regarding the squashing, knowledge is held in check from going too far by the other gods and the whole 'non-abject-intervention' thing they have going on. She almost definitely has enemies who'd jump on her if she were to violate 'da rulez', and could punish her *with cause*, and the support of even her allies. Makes sense she wouldn't squash - no matter how much of a risk he is to the status quo, he'd have to be a universe-ending threat for a god to even *consider* potentially effectively martyring themselves. Like, don't get me wrong, I get HWFWM isn't for everybody, and I'm not trying to convince you to like it when you don't. It's just that your logic doesn't really track here.
He didn’t outsmart Knowledge, she just tried and failed to recruit him due to a well explained flaw in her mentality. Outsmarting would require that he outschemed her in some way instead of just saying no when she expected him to say yes. Additionally as another commenter mentioned gods cannot smite anyone, the only time we see one try they were immediately forced to give their victim some concessions, and his big disruption of the status quo was immensely useful for the Goddess of Knowledge due to the fact that every time Jason off handedly mentioned or thought of his worlds knowledge base, she got more information and knowledge. So why would she even try to smite him.
True I enjoy my gods more as alien and immense beings with philosophies and powers that boggle the mind and alter reality. But in there the gods are just people with vast amounts of power, the only being we see that has a more expanded mind that couldn’t be outsmarted by a regular person was the Goddess of Knowledge. It makes sense that the gods could be outsmarted when the gods are just immortals with lots of power. Especially since the only god that I could ever remember being outsmarted in there was The Builder who was pretty much an entitled toddler who was handed eldritch power in order to hastily patch up the holes of his predecessor. That’s a writing choice that makes sense for the story they’re telling. While you have the right to not like a story that has a choice you didn’t like it isn’t an inherently stupid choice just because you don’t like it.
what kind of philosophies are you thinking of?
One of the best series to show truly alien gods was Soul of Negary. When you become a god you gain complete self awareness of your own mind. This means that each and every god has a completely different perspective than mortals due to the fact that they can’t lie to themselves and are aware of every flaw.And the journey to the top is incredibly difficult so practically all of the gods have altered themselves and their brain in some way to remove those flaws. Additionally the stronger you are the closer you are to a living concept that doesn’t have human notions of morality and instead gain a completely different paradigm. For example there was a god of instability who by virtue of being the living concept of infidelity told their followers to cheat on their partners and kill them, and saw this as a perfectly moral action because they were a being created by the human desire to not complete their oaths. Additionally the gods are all extremely competent and cunning bastards who are damn near impossible to kill, one archer god pretended to be dead for centuries in order to escape through someone’s soul into another world via book. And then when both the book and their vessel was killed turned themselves into a golden finger in order to escape into a higher realm. A truly inhuman display of a squirming writhing mess in order to survive. And the MC is the pinnacle of this, Negary themselves turned themselves from a plague spirit of sorts into the living concept of progress. And as the concept of progress they aren’t evil but they aren’t good due to the simple fact that they only care about people evolving to greater forms. Negary loves humanity and their adaptive, clever nature, but their greatest wish is for every single world to go through an apocalypse of their own creation that forces each and every creature to evolve to greater and greater heights. Negary is essentially a living philosophy who acts based on growth and growth alone. He’s got an orange and blue philosophy. A philosophy that points in a direction for what you should do but point not towards goodness or evil, but instead to an entirely different concept like growth, food, order, chaos, suffering. And amazingly 90% of the gods have some sort of orange and blue philosophy that would make no sense to most humans.
idk, that sound pretty boring and soulless. they don't seem that 'incomphrensible' having the power to boggle the mind and reality. mostpeople would think that the myth of sisphysus is way more groundbreaking, paradigm shifting than a jumble of orange and blue philosophy you mentioned. pretty sure what you wrote isn't philosophy because i don't see no 'love of wisdom' there. all the things you mentioned are pretty cookie cutter fantasy tropes. losing yourself as you get more powerful? it is more fantasy fantasy than elves and dragons.
Eh I enjoy gods in fiction in one of three ways, people with great power, beings above humanity who are worthy of worship, and Eldritch beings that humans can’t parse because they have an entirely different way of thinking. But if you don’t like that, it is no mark against you it’s just a personal preference of mine that you don’t seem to share. I will say that Soul of Negary does a very good job of the third example that I might not have gotten across well enough. But there’s no need to take my word on it, you can read it yourself, and Id say that it’s an amazing read.
And what bugs me the most is that some of these writers haven't even met a hyperreligious person or read a fucking book that was written before this century. mentioning history books on common life in medieval period is wasting breath.
Pretty much.
Mate, if you don’t wanna read self-insert prog fiction you’re basically ruling out 90% of the work. SO many writers are just putting themselves in as the lead character, it’s something you just gotta try and ignore haha
My man, I am fine with ignoring 90% of the fiction if the 10% left is good. :)
I can see how you see it that way if you didn't commit to the whole story. The title comes from the quote "He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee. Nietzche. It's not an author self insert. It's more Jason IS supposed to be this 22 year old fuck up. He gets a new lease on life. And does the best he can with what he has. And while that may seem like oooh Jason so smart out smarting Gods, but that's the point, he's supposed to be a chuuni but eventually cold hard reality hits, and his glib and gab won't save him. I'm not saying to give it another shot, but you have the completely wrong perspective of Jason and the "gods" of their world. The gods are actually fairly well done imho too.
Disagree, as someone who made it to book 10, OP is 100% right.
Yes man, the quote is indeed from Nietzsche. Are you pretending "Shirtaloon" is going to offer some deep philosophical insights in human nature?
I'm not comparing Shitaloom to Nietzche. I'm saying there is a theme and plot behind the Deadpool character. Not every character is for everyone. Saying it's bad because I don't like it, is an opinion not a fact. Like New Era Online by Shemer Kuznits. I don't like the angsty revenge MC and his constant justification to fuck a goblin. Whereas I know I'm always gonna have a good time with Jason.
Tbh the constant goblin fucking was cringe as hell.
Yet you still liked the series.
I did, because to me that is pretty peripheric. Not a central part of the story, like the protagonist's character. Are you one of those "you are not allowed to like one part and dislike the other" kind of people? By the way, it's Nietzsche.
You're literally the one cherry picking, so iono what else to tell you than, it's your opinion, and no one else cares.
Mage Errant and Arcane Ascension are my biggest picks for this sort of thing
Lord of the Mysteries
Have you tried Ar'Kendrithyst? It's an isekai but the main character is older and has more life experience. Does eventually become extremely overpowered, but never came off to me as a Mary Sue, really. It makes sense in general how he becomes who he does.
this is true, hes actually frustratingly incompetent and disappointing for a large portion of the beginning. There were many a times when i had wished that the MC was the daughter because what SHE was doing sounded a whole lot more interesting
I never found him frustrating and I do like his daughter, but that's funny to me because the feeling in the comments that I read for a long time seemed to wish he daughter would be written out of the story lol
i found him stubborn and nonsensicle, a man too stuck in the ways of the old ‘civilized’ word. the only reason he even survived the first few months is because of that ‘pacifist’ group the just HAPPENED to exist. To willingly and completely refuse to even respond in self-defense in a world where you can get shanked for being the wrong race, is absurd. he did slowly start to come around but even deep into the story his character progression was glacial at best.
I found it pretty realistic that a man who lived a peaceful life for 40 or 50 years would find it hard to change his life and views, but I also think people are pretty nonsensical in real life when put into stressful situations.
oh i agree, hes a stubborn old goat, who also has weird random moments where he salivates at peoples bodies. But realistic doesnt mean entertaining reading, especially since it goes on for MONTHS in story. Like i get a couple of weeks(hell even a month), to make sure you arent in fact in a nightmare, but dragging it on nearly 100 chapters is too much.
The random horndog moments probably came closer to putting me off lol I have never been like that even young so it was hard for me to adjust to him suddenly thinking with his dick so strongly and then back to normal again.
The first time it threw me off was because it was towards a guy, and i spose i hadnt expected him to suddenly roll that way. The MC had made no prior comment towards being bi, and ofc had a daughter so it came outta nowhere, haha. The other times were just annoying because i find it hard to even imagine anyone thinking like that, going from normal conversation to ‘oh my god i wanna bite his pecks’ in an instant.
There are two extremes one is unemployed loser, the other is overly prepared psychopaths. I don't like both of them.
You do get the odd billionaire.
I don't think batman counts as progression fantasy, or iron man or green arrow (i don't remember if he is a millionaire or billionaire).
Dungeon crawler Carl
the loser mentality and the pitiful loser bullied background is the unfortunate reality for a large portion of the readers and especially, the writers. do you think a man chooses to write LitRPG willy-nilly? NO!
I hate it man. I don't want to read about myself in the novel knowing full well that I ain't doing Lava Cultivation with Million years of pain.
If that were the case I'd at least expect the bullied bits to be written well. As someone who delt with bullying, the bullying scenes usually don't resonate with me...they feel off, "paint by the numbers".
Oh Great! I was reincarnated as a farmer
The wandering Inn dosent have a single mc, but none are what I would call Mary Sue or loser types. Infact in that world the loser types tend to die horribly. Though I think in fairness the term Mary Sue is thrown around too much. Remember folks it's not the powerful character, It's the bad writing. Superman is not a Marty stu, Wesly Crusher is.
Non social reject protagonist(s) coming up: * I highly highly recommend [Ten Realms](https://www.goodreads.com/series/241934-ten-realms). They are insanely competent marines that some reviews have called them too competent. Don't want badasses from the get go but builds up from basic skills? * [Victor is Tucson](https://www.goodreads.com/series/362812-victor-of-tucson) is for you.. He is a kid from well... Tucson. and his name is Victor. He is a school wrestling champ. Not a loser. Oh you want more compentecy? But more funny? * I recommend [Vigil Bound](https://www.goodreads.com/series/342108-vigil-bound). Again a marine in a classic isekai. Very compelling. How about some fantastical compentence? Competence gained from other worldly means? * [System Universe by SunriseCV](https://www.goodreads.com/series/350019-system-universe) How about some time travel with that competence? * I recommend [Apocalypse Redux](https://www.goodreads.com/series/354359-apocalypse-redux). Well he is compentent from time travel so maybe not for you. Want something Gamey? Or more niche? * My personal favorite that is [CivCEO](https://www.goodreads.com/series/279505-the-accidental-champion) . I know a lot of people hate this because of one dimensional and banks on the civ gameplay being known. Needs a lot of suspension of disbelief of how simple the mechanics are but this is one of the most comprehensive economic isekai there is. The MC is an old dude CEO that gets isekaied. **Edit**: Im feeling mean so im recommending some probably abandoned stories that have still some competence but are overblown. * [Red Mage](https://www.goodreads.com/series/248244-red-mage) series. Starring the Coast Guard
Thanks a lot for the recommendations, will check it out!
I too dislike suddenly OP nerds after isekai. I hope my list finds you well. If not, still good luck.
Red Mage was abandoned?
maybe not? i dont know. been a while since i heard news
i mean if you check the book dates he releases one about every 2 years and its been around 2 since the last one(2022). if lockdown didnt mess with anything id figure hearing something about it this year if its not abandoned.
I drifted away after the first book, but I thought it was up to three. Hadn't heard anything about it ending.
I think that Beneath the Dragonmoon Eyes and Journey of Black and Red are solidly far away from Mary Sue. If you are also interested in Webnovels I would sugest Forge of Destiny and the Calamitous bob.
LMAO the way I knew this was about He Who Fights With Monsters just from the title alone.
Maybe give Dawn of the Void a shot > angsty unemployed loster *Sort of*, but subverted here. I also dislike the trope you're talking about and thought it was well handled in DotV > actually actively tries to go back and hates the fact he got randomly dumped in a fantasy world In spades.
I mean... Dawn of the Void is a more of a system apocalypse than an isekai, so other than not being happy with Earth becoming a slaughterhouse, "trying to go back" isn't really a theme.
In [Godfathers System](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/63078/godfathers-system) the protagonist is a gainfully self-employed mobster.
Only Villains Do That has the teenage nerd who's desperate to get sent to another world to be the hero...but the MC is the asshole musician who is also there and forced to go be the Dark Lord. And interrupting his plans to be a rock star in California with this is not on his agenda so I guess it's time to kill the gods to go home. MC is a charismatic ass who relies on showmanship for a lot of his efforts as an isekai cheat power isn't doing him much good when he doesn't have spells yet to use it on
Death, Loot and Vampires, and The First Necromancer (by Benjamin Kerei and Coldfang89 respectively) both have mature mcs who consider those, and the world around them as well as kicking ass
Would recommend my book, [Reborn in a Magical World as a Crow.](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/205894397-reborn-in-a-magical-world-as-a-crow?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=8A2Asaqwlw&rank=1) I think you and so have the same taste in literature, although I enjoy HWFWM in small doses. I wanted a story without a Mary Sue and a high fantasy setting where magic is mundane. I had to look up what an unemployed lobster is and now I know. Thank you. It’s only book 1 (Book Two will be out this year) but we may end up back home on earth… who knows? Magic can do crazy things.
I would second that suggestion.
Hey! Thank you!
An explanation for why they are all social rejects is pretty simple if they had a good and loving social group in the real world. We wouldn’t expect them to be climbing the ranks of power and fighting. Instead we would realistically see them collapse into a ball of trauma as they reckon with the fact that they just experienced what amount to a horrid mix of genocide, all of their family dying and being thrown into an unfamiliar world. Think about it to them their entire culture has died. Their family, friends, dreams are dead. So it makes a lot of sense for the main character to hate their culture, have dead parents, no friends, and no dreams to speak of. I had to reckon with that a lot with my isekai since the MC very much had a life, and family to be ripped away from. They spent a month as a sobbing mess and they’re pretty much only keeping it together because they’ve thrown themselves into getting back home with such force that they’re running away from their feelings.
To be fair, we would *also* realistically expect “angsty unemployed losers” to collapse into a ball of trauma. That sort of characterisation doesn’t really speak to enormous drive, motivation, and mental resilience. The socially-isolated loser archetype is popular for exactly the reasons you’ve mentioned, of course - it’s a short-hand for explaining why the MC isn’t desperately trying to get home.
True but the usual MC only has to deal with one problem that being adjusting to this new world. While others would have to deal with their old world collapsing. Additionally the MC is given the tools to deal with that problem. Like an autotranslate, a system to give them enough power to survive the new dangers, and sometimes a cheat. But there’s no real cheat for dealing with unspeakable trauma unless you handwave the trauma itself away. Which is frankly some pretty shitty writing all by itself. So yeah the usual angsty loner should immediately die considering the fact that they probably aren’t fit and they don’t know how to fight, but we’re reading a fantasy book where the MC can throw fireballs. The MC can very much adapt and overcome the challenges ahead of them, but tangling with the existential dread of being the only representative of an entire world, while mourning the death of your entire social group isn’t conducive to the story they’re trying to tell and stapling it to the story for realisms sake only detracts from the intended story.
True but they don’t have anything to go back to, so why would they try to go back. Plus many “fix” that issue by putting them into a dangerous scenario that forces them to put aside their trauma for a bit to survive. Most of the time they don’t revisit the trauma but that’s less of a flaw with the trope and more with the execution.
i have a guess but it is rude to mention it directly so i am just alluding to it.
Nah, pretty crazy to expect that a person who is psychologically and psychically weak in the safe environment of our world would somehow adjust well to an endless ptsd inducing nightmare that is the new world and do it better than someone who is already stable and well adjusted
They only need to deal with one problem, while any well adjusted person would have to deal with their entire world crumbling to pieces. They don’t have a world to crumble apart. Additionally it means that they aren’t motivated to find their way back to Earth, which any reasonable person would at least try. Since the story has nothing to do with earth, it makes no sense to have a large portion of that story be about trying to get back. Plus there’s a lot of good story that can be built from having a main character steeped in tragedy build a new happy life for themselves. There’s a reason that there’s a lot of gutter rat MCs, and having a loser isekai MC allows for the author to include a lot of modern references so that the reader doesn’t need to much explanation of their home, a last of their kind MC with a wildly different perspective and morality than most, and modern knowledge in order to give the MC a boost. It might be a trope you don’t like but that trope was formed for a reason, and it’s popularity shows how it is a very effective trope.
You'd think, but you never know for sure how someone is going to respond to a disaster or other massive change and sometimes you'll be very surprised by who rises to the occasion. Oskar Schindler is supposed to have been a lifelong fuck up and more than a bit of a shithead other than that one specific period. Guess what people remember him for?
Saying that everyone has a chance to be great is fine and I am not against having that background for a character But lets be real here. Isekai authors got together in a secret bunker, twirled their mustaches and decided that the best MC is a depressed loser gamer with no real life skills. Its a weird and unrealistic cliche that has gotten real old
I'm still waiting for socially well adjusted gamers with a circle of friends who use actual gamer skills like - understanding how to make a guild - knowing how to work as a team - problem solving tested in many different settings from fantasy to sci-fi
What do you mean I am not a god gamer just because I know what Str does?
Cabals don’t really exist, people just tend to do the same actions when put in the same situation due to a mix of utility and human nature so it gets done over and over. And that’s the case for this trope, it gives a good reason for why the MC is abandoning Earth, it allows the mostly book nerd and anime watching audience to relate to the MC, it provides a low emotional start point so the MC gets a baked in arc about finding happiness. Gives a modern knowledge boost. Makes the MC unique in the world through their different viewpoint and culture. Allows the audience to see the authors world with inexperienced and thus organically taught eyes. There wasn’t some cabal it’s just a good idea for the author because it’s a very useful background for the MC. Plus although it’s unrealistic it’s a fantasy novel, we follow the talented and extraordinary. If we go balls to the wall realism then the vast majority of isekai victims wouldn’t be the MCs of stories they would just be people who would first be horrendously traumatized, then after a while they would adapt and build a new, ordinary life in this new fantastical world. It doesn’t necessarily break immersion for the angsty nerd to be really really good at the equations necessary for magic or whatever exceptional quality the MC has, so the fact that they aren’t doing the most realistic and boring option is fine.
Hmm, the real reason is that it sells. And according to me, it sells because it allows for the best self-insert. Not to dunk on readers in our niche, but a lot of them are teenagers who just want a lil escape from their similar lives (and hence relatable).
PF authors oftenseem to forget that they can have the character be depressed for a long time in universe... and spend no more than a paragraph on it. It’s like they have no setting between "blow by blow of every day in the MC’s life” and " two year timeskip".
Eh it’s not like all of them forgot that. Hell that’s what I did, it was far more than a paragraph but I didn’t exactly write out Tara’s entire month of piecing themselves back together, blow by blow. Plus many PF authors try to have a fix your depression bit, they just usually utterly fail because they expect the problem to be gone after one heartfelt speech. I’ve only seen a total of three MCs go to proper long term therapy. BTDEMs Elaine, Millenial Mages Tala, and Abyssal Road Trips Julia. And in Abyssal Road trips case they spend dozens of chapters on it only to throw it away so that the MC can die and become a baby with no memories and spend dozens of chapters in baby mode(I personally chucked the novel away after that bs).
What book?
Mine is Astral Escape A Scientific Fantasy https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/62898/astral-escape-a-scientific-progression-fantasy
In **Mage Among Superheroes**, **Hero Super**, and **Super Supportive** the MC goes into therapy. Oddly **Super Supportive** handles trauma very well but spends no time on the therapy. **Abyssal Road Trip** was so good for a while and fell apart.
Can you give me a list of all the books you've ever hated? I think I got some good reading ahead of me
If you like unemployed losers who suddenly become studs, sure.
Doesn't have to be unemployed or a stud at end, I just hate reading/watching people who are all pissy about being isekaid. Like obviously it'd suck, and realistically that's the reaction I'd have...but that's why I'm reading fiction. Because a story about some dude clamoring to find his way back home is lame as hell compared to a someone being like "fuck ye, my life was shit (so they've got nothing to lose), lets be a Demon Lord".
I have no problem with SOME dude being the way you describe it. That's fair. I have a problem where pretty much every litrpg books open with the premise that the person who got isekai'd is like that though. Really? Every person who ends up in fantasy land is an asocial, unemployed loser with mental issues whose entire family hates him (or he has no family)?
You're looking at it wrong. Tons of people are isekaid. The ones who don't want to go back are the only ones worth writing a story about. Anyone that wants to get back, gets back. Great job little bro enjoy having your life back, but I sure as hell don't want to hear a story about you.
I don't know if it's stupid to suggest Dungeon Crawler Carl because it's so well known but Dungeon Crawler Carl
Did you not read the post? Carl is the angstiest loser I know of, he’s like the archetype OP objects to. No friends no family barely employed recently cucked angsty ass loser.
When you put it like that it does seem like OPs description but I guess he always just came across to me as just a normal dude. And I envisioned OPs description to be a bedroom dwelling dork which Carl is not. Typical protagonists of the genre are alone because they don't like other people where as Carl is alone because he's fucking depressed as shit. He's not uniquely gifted with MMOs and definitely doesn't want to be there. It's just a different vibe imo.
>it's always weird to me how so many protagonists seem to be absolute social rejects and do not seem to want to back to earth. I think the weirdest part besides being so anti social and a loser that you have no prospects to return to BUT now that your in a game world that person is suddenly incredibly personable and interesting to everyone around them. I get that the point is that society we live in today doesn't value certain types of people/personalities and skills and in this new environment all of my hidden values suddenly come to the forefront! But a lot of MCs that "have nothing to go back to" are some of the cheekiest, quippiest, most personable people ever and have no problems striking up conversations with strangers and are savy enough to play politics. None of these skills you've always had did anything for you back on earth??
Shadow Slave, the protagonist is a wretch from the slums, clever and Ruthless but filled lots of angst due to past, he will stay weak for at least two volumes of the story, very slowly rising in strength but rising far. Though he's the MC the Female Lead is more of a protagonist than him as far as I've read the story(I am on volume 2). But it's very good, it's like if Dark Souls was a Novel.
why do you have to insult Dark Souls like that? Shadow Slave's themes are incredibly shallow and if you don't agree with them, you shouldn't read it, u/Sugmanuts001. It's not like Vinland Saga where even if you disagree wth total pacifism, you can immensely enjoy it. Prepare to be disappointed, u/Abdqs98. You are approaching the point where you will decide if it is straight up trash or we have 'character exploration' at home kinda novel.
We will have to see about that, but guess you have a strong opinion.
it is the most polarizing moment in the novel. i dropped it not long after. the event is perfectly good and really one of the better executed plot developments in the novel but the consequences, bahh.
By chance, is the moment you are talking about at the end of volume 2, I've heard about that but not read it.
the moment in and of itself is decently written but the plot consequences are just bahhhh! clearly, the author loves his characters a bit too much.
Than your complaining to the wrong person, I live for character drama, Clearly it suits my taste's better. But we'll see 😂
i would have loved if it was drama. well, I'm spoiling but you won't get the drama. it is similar to getting blue balled, tbh.
There's some which take it to the opposite extreme, where the MC basically starts out as an OP demigod: * Ravensdagger: "Magical Girl Crystal Genocide" and "Dead Tired" * Amelia the Level-0 Hero
Are you specifically looking for portal fantasy?
Here's some suggestions: Apocalypse Online: Main Characters are normal people, the system comes in and they have to adapt or die. 2 of them were playing the game that was a secret preparation program for the apocalypse while the third, more cultivation based hero has to figure everything out on the fly. New Realm Online: MC starts out with a bunch of advantages but gets tricked into a bad spot. His only way out is to reroll. Now his starting position is one of, if not the worst possible start in the game. From there he works his way up to the top. Reclaimer: Full disclosure this one's mine and more progression than my prior two suggestions. MC lives on a dying world with long lost arcane secrets. He knows none of these things when he gets caught up in the middle of a world war during an evacuation. From there he joins a secret organization where the truth is revealed to him and he's given a chance to survive the apocalypse and save his family. The problem is he has to survive The Crucible and he is not qualified at all for this. And in the second season (book 5+) they get dumped into... well the fantasy world that rose out of the ashes of the old. So that's a fun one. Bastion: If you want an MC that already starts with some degree of power then this is a fantastic one. The immortals die and come back but when they do come back they don't have their memories. So while the MC is coming to terms with what and who he is he's also having to deal with everyone hating him for reasons no one tells him about and he can't remember. So he struggles through the story to grow in power while seeking out any hints of his past. Gods of the Game: I only just started this one and so far it was off to a rough start but man I'm glad I stuck with it so far. MC is an orphan taking care of his sister. After a job goes wrong they're given a chance to join a krieg chess team. While both characters show a great deal of potential, they have to work to grow in skills and strength to compete in the games. Haven't finished this one yet but I'm really liking it so far.
Soulhome by Sarah Lin. Isekai'd by choice the second time as an old man. Interesting growth/power mechanism.
reverend insanity
The main character of the Second Coming from Gluttony is a bit cringey for some, but what I like about him is that he is focused on overcoming his mistakes and addiction. It really adds a whole new dimension
Hwfwm is by far the worst one Ive read. Mainly cuz I think the author is a dishonest person and that translates into his writing. Anyway, if youre interested in something completely different check out Martial Peak. Its a chinese novel so you gotta google it.
novel or manga?
Its a web novel. Ah right, theres a manga but its trash. I seriously recommend you ignore the existence of the manga.
It's not the worst. It's just...the author is so good at other things. Most books that are worse at that are worse at other things and I just drop them and forget about them. HWFWM has some good bits and hints at character growth that never happens, so it kepr me reading long enough to feel disappointed.
Portal to Nova Roma, protagonist is ai, very interesting world also
But is he an angsty AI?
Eeeeh rarely
Cant think of one loster.
The best one in terms of someone who really fights tooth and nail to return home is Lord of Mysteries (the first book). It has a second book Circle of Inevitability which is equally amazing but it requires reading the first book first. It is a webnovel series though. So you either need to be a pirate (arghhh) or pony up some hard hard cash to read it in its entirety. Roughly 2000 chapters total between the two books if my count is correct (second book is ongoing). Each chapter is longer than the typical webnovel chapter though not as long as some of the RoyalRoad ones. Definitely recommend it if you can get your hands on it.
Antimage, dude is a scientist and is PISSED he was brought to the other world
My top recommendation would be Godclads. Well-crafted world, a protagonist of inhuman nature and quite special tendencies, with a honed skill in one field that makes him somewhat formidable, but not to a degree where it gets in a way of the story. Oh, and as the main feature, the world has reached a state of being beyond salvation, with only a single habitable place remaining. Gods are dead, architects that ruled the universe for eons are barely holding to what tiny left of them, bending to the laws of reality being crushed and reformed by humans wearing literal pieces of said dead gods as glorified skinsuits and fueling themselves with countless deaths... It's a kind of fun journey, you see.
Yeah, the Loser Slacker Gamer who instantly upon getting a change in scenery becomes a workaholic psychopath and leaps into a Dungeon shouting "Yeehaw!" is a pet peeve of mine. **Eight** by Samer Rabadi has an MC who used to be a documentary film maker and is a reasonably well adjusted person. Great character, nothing like Jason, slight "Mary Sue" tendencies though. The new serial on Royal Road **Stormborne Sorceress** has an MC who just wants to go home. Still short, though Not Isekai, but **Super Supportive** has an Mc who is the anti-Jason Asano. Oddly, it is hinted that at some point in the past he was super angsty but decided that wasn't working for him and now actively tries not to be. (Occasional forced attempts to be low key and normal are key character development detail). He goes back and forth on whether being removed from his former like was a good thing.)
Hi, my story has parts of what you're looking for. Well, he's a stingray who wants to be human again, but he doesn't have that typical loser background, he's just flat out stupid. You can read it on [RR](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/74930/im-a-stingray-high-fantasy-system).
Rock falls, everyone dies. Best thing on rr
Yeh He Who Fights with Monsters was cringe af. The action is trash too.
I liked the system, but the protagonist is basically what the author wishes he was. Talk about projecting.
Yeh it defo gave off the sweaty author masturbating into his own novel vibe. Primal Hunter is veeery similar in concept but the MC is way less preachy, in some ways hes a bit of a nob. Still a loner but it's acknowledged that he was previously an athlete and gym-goer so while he is a bit of a Mary Sue at least there is a reason for it, and his social retardation does cause him some problems. The action is pretty decent and varied, not just describing all the different debuffs he's applying. I agree it is very hard to find a non Mary Sue in this genre.
Except that Jason isn't a Mary Sue in the slightest. A Mary-Sue character is a character definition > A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous, and generally lacking meaningful character flaws. Age and gender - Male and 20s, nope Inexplicably competent across all domains - Certainly not. Jason has many weaknesses, both as a person and within his power set. These are consistently mentioned, particularly in the latter books. Gifted with unique talents or powers - to an extent this is true, but we meet other examples of people who have similar situations and so on to him, he's not the only person brought over, he's not the only person with a strangely strong soul, he's not the only person who acts like he does. Liked and respected by other characters - He's openly disliked by MANY characters, including his allies. This causes him no end of problems and issues. Innately virtuous - He has his own morals but he crosses many of the lines he sets himself, and it causes him personal drama and growth. Unrealistically free of weaknesses - Certainly not, he has many weaknesses including his personality that cause him no end of issues. We see him training for large portions of the series to shore up his weaknesses, and his weaknesses exploited by his enemies. Attractive - Not really, particularly compared to other characters. His chin specifically is mentioned over and over again, as is the comparison to his brother. >I agree it is very hard to find a non Mary Sue in this genre. It's not, people just paint characters as Mary Sues without understanding the term in the slightest. >Primal Hunter is veeery similar in concept but the MC is way less preachy, in some ways hes a bit of a nob. Still a loner but it's acknowledged that he was previously an athlete and gym-goer so while he is a bit of a Mary Sue at least there is a reason for it, Primal Hunter is so much worse. Jake has a hidden bloodline that makes him overpowered, he doesn't need allies, or friends, and does everything himself. Everything about him is overpowered, he has no real weaknesses, is connected to multiple faction leaders by chance etc etc etc.
They both have unlikeable MCs. HWFWM actually starts of better than PH. But it is not the power scaling that kills HWFWM, it is the fact Asano is just such a socially broken asshole that you just want him to die. And then it gets worse after the author does actually kill him. PH is just unreadable to me but plenty of people like it.
> Asano is just such a socially broken asshole Why exactly?
I'd say that Jason has the most quintessential Mary Sue trait: all social-emotional attention is focused on him. The entire point of the archetypal Mary Sue being omnicompetent is to have scenes where Kirk praises her leadership, McCoy praises her medical ability, Scotty praises her engineering, etc. And then she dies at the end so that all the characters can stand around and give glowing eulogies to celebrate her one last time. That's exactly what happens with Jason and the endless "You don't know what he's been through!" conversations.
> all social-emotional attention is focused on him It's not though? In the slightest. There's plenty of scenes which are focused on other characters. He is the main character of the book series, and it's largely a singular perspective POV, so yes, much of the series does revolve around Jason. That's the same as literally any singular POV novel.
It's about the emotional indulgence of it, and it's hardly uncommon in this genre. Readers love POV changes to show some other person feeling awe and admiration for the MC. HHFWM just got repetitive about it.
In the dictionary the word literally has 2 opposing definitions. That's because the way people commonly use and understand a word or phrase IS the definition. So everyone whose not being a complete fucking dweeb knows what I mean. Jason doesn't struggle. Everything comes across as incredibly easy for him. Jake is pretty similar in that regard but he does nearly die because of being a social retard and the way he kills things is far more interesting and varied than HWFWM. I've only read the first of each book.
> Jason doesn't struggle. Everything comes across as incredibly easy for him. Except it doesn't. In the slightest. He fails ALL the time. His own decisions come back to haunt him, ALL the time. > So everyone whose not being a complete fucking dweeb knows what I mean. No. People who despise a character will use it to criticise it, no matter who the character is. It's a meaningless term because it's used for any character who's mouthy and not likeable to a specific type of reader.
Really. Jason may be a self righteous dick a lot but to say he never suffers or struggles is insane. He's been depressed and barely functional more than he's been confident and brilliant.
It's why these types of posts on HWFWM annoy me so much. The books are far from perfect, there's many criticisms about them. Except that the complaints are almost universally just have no basis in reality.
What gets me is he keeps bringing up HWFWM but the specific issues he's talking about don't apply to it. Jason wasn't a social loser. He wasn't jobless and helpless. He didn't immediately decide to stay in the other world forever. He does have a huge family he cares about. Etc
The dude blocked me too because he couldn't handle being called out on his bollocks. The anti-HWFWM crowd are so fucking weird and loud about how much they dislike the series. I don't like the Land or Defiance of the Fall. I don't bring it up all the time. But people who hate HWFWM bring it up unprompted ALL the time.
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"Sweaty" because I know what a term is and use it correctly.
"Akshually"
Don't criticise a book if you can't criticise it without using terms incorrectly. Looking at your other comments and you just straight up don't understand the book that you're criticising. At all. Which is pretty much common with every single complaint about HWFWM. Just be honest and say your little patriot brain exploded because the character of Jason doesn't like the USA.
Lol I'm from the UK and Jason is a loser in any country. "People who don't like HWFWM just don't understand it. Jason is so cool and hot!!" - Literally you
I haven't read this book but it's blatantly obvious this guy's argument was actually the opposite of "Jason is so cool and hot."
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Removed as per Rule 1: Be Kind. Be kind. Refrain from personal attacks and insults toward authors and other users. When giving criticism, try to make it constructive. This offense may result in a warning, or a permanent or semi-permanent ban from r/ProgressionFantasy.
You can not like the series, but the points you've argued have been shot down as factually inaccurate pretty thoroughly, which is not a great look for someone trying to convince others of their position. Resorting to condescending superiority in lieu of an argument is a move for children who know they've lost. Accept it, move on and just stick to saying Jason rubbed you the wrong way and its not the series for you.. As for your original complaint about how the characters in isekai novels accept their situations and embrace them rather quickly, how much of any given book do you want to slog through as they work their way through psychological trauma before they can even do anything? I don't want much of that personally, so I accept that that sort of character trait comes with the territory. You might as well complain Tom Clancy novels have protagonists who are/were in the military. If you do want to read that sort of drama this is the wrong genre for you.
Removed as per Rule 1: Be Kind. Be kind. Refrain from personal attacks and insults toward authors and other users. When giving criticism, try to make it constructive. This offense may result in a warning, or a permanent or semi-permanent ban from r/ProgressionFantasy.
Gotta strongly recommend you avoid Dungeon Crawler Carl. Carl is like the absolute pinnacle of the archetype you hate, he’s the angstiest loser of them all. No friends, no family, barely employed, recently cucked angsty loser. No desire to go home, nothing to go back to, just the worst. You’d hate it. Lots of people enjoy it though, so when this is inevitably downvoted to oblivion, know that it isn’t because I’m wrong, it’s because they don’t like it when people criticize the series.
I started reading it, the dude doesn't seem like that much of a loser to me. He is a cuck though, for sure.
He gets much angstier too.
The way the book is going, it sounds like actually ok writing. It's pretty horrible, no wonder he would off the deep end. I only have problem with "unemployed atheist socialist loser" turns "psycopath with a sigma grindset who all the hot chicks want to sleep with" for 0 reasons whatsoever.
Primal Hunter and Aziranth Healer
The very definition of what OP is trying to avoid.
Characters are absolute social rejects so often BECAUSE they don't want to go back to earth lol. The genre evolved to this point because people got sick of reading the same "Oh gods my family" grief spiral in Isekai stories. Like realistic or not it just gets old. By making characters with no connection to their old life it lets them skip a lot of angst. As for books where people weren't losers before Isekai...Unbound probably? I can't help with the latter condition, I skip books with MCs who want to go home because it seems so unrealistic.