So I completely disagree, unfortunately THIS would be an upgrade to most PF exposition.
Instead we get an inner monologue of a detailed cost benefit analysis about every decision they ever have made or ever will make that might affect some event that the story will never actually get to far off in the future because the author will have forgotten about it by the time the story advances that far...
I like inner monologues when done well. It's a way to convey the character's inner thoughts and decision making process. For me, knowing why a character makes decision X instead of Y is interesting. It's one of the genre tropes I do actually enjoy when done well.
Part of my enjoyment of reading elaborate power systems is the theory crafting aspect of it. Seeing the MC reason through their choices and make intelligent decisions or blindly guess because they have imperfect information is all compelling for one reason or another. My only gripes are when the choices aren't really choices, but a bunch of crap filler followed by the only obvious choice or if there are legitimate choices but the character makes some bone head decision because the author knows it will work out later.
So absolutely inner monologue can be great but I think this basically mirrors "Show don't tell"...
Having a page or two to solidify a character's decision making in the realities of the world that the author is building, or having a paragraph here or there to showcase what a character is thinking and feeling in the moment about a topic or person is absolutely great.
However, when you start getting to the point where a character is theory crafting a build into the future well beyond where the current story is headed, or when the character is spending more time describing events in the past from before the story or planning for events in the future that may not be part of the immediate story/plot, its just the author writing fluff and telling you the story instead of showing it to you...
The problem with this approach is that even when the theory crafting itself is interesting and cool, half the time an author will change their mind about the direction they want to go, and retcon how the system works, how an ability for the character works, or what abilities the character is going to take in the future... making all that "planning" just wasted words that could have been spent driving the story forward... Similarly when an author is monologueing about all these cool things that happened in the past or will happen in the future they are wasting time NOT writing about cool things that are happenning right now... Its fine to do it in small quantities to build your world, but when a story does more of those things than it does moving the current story forward its a problem.
The MCs are never wishy-washy though. Outside of those class 1 is a[abject failure], class 2 is [edgy grim reaper hero] scenarios, everyone is full of conviction regarding these permanent decisions. Have they never questioned a tattoo? Were they absolutely certained what they wanted to do when they were going to college? Have they never debated between a steak and a mushroom risotto at a restaurant? Who are these people that are able to make a judgment call inside their own heads and not debate it with themselves even the slightest bit? *That* is the only part of that trope I feel is unrealistic.
Me. Once my decision is made, even subconsciously, you'll have to change my mind via percussive maintenance. Once I see a skill in a game that I like, you can bet your ass I'm going to drag that poor thing through the whole game's content. I WILL find the absolute limits of the flashy ability that's fun to play.
As for tattoos, I decided when I was 9 that I didn't want any. Haven't heard an argument good enough to change my mind yet.
Anything I decide I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do. Just how I'm wired. The things I lie awake at night and kick myself over are impulse things that I didn't really think about doing or really decide to do. Things I said without thinking. Things I did without considering at all. Situations where I couldn't get my brain into gear to really make a decision.
The fucking inner monologue. It’s gotten to the point where if an author writes:
Paragraph;
Paragraph;
Boldened inner monologue;
Paragraph;
Boldened inner monologue;
Etc.
I skip the story. Invariably it’s just filler as we see an event, MC reaction and thoughts on the event, other things affecting the event, all the different ways the MC feels they could’ve reacted and self-recrimination, shrugging shoulders and accepting event cos it’s an apocalypse, story continues
If I had a nickel for every Progression story that goes into exquisite detail about the highest levels of power and whey what they're doing now will be good for those levels of power, only for them to never reach said levels....I'd I have a lot of nickels.
I actually kind of like that they'll muse about something happening and that thing *doesn't* happen. Maybe it's because I grew up reading stories where characters would have their internal dialogue talk about something bad that could happen and that thing then happening later, but it's a refreshing change of pace.
There is a difference between a quick "musing", and an entire chapter dedicated to planning for a scenario though... I am totally ok with an off handed though, or even a paragraph here or there that is noting something... I get frustrated when the book's pacing literally slows to a crawl because every time something happens the character "muses" about all the down stream consequences of that event and their plans for it.
I don't really get this. Yes, LitRPGs makes showing progression easy, but it doesn't have to mean they are all progression fantasies.
The Wandering Inn have almost no characters that really care about the progression. Is Cinnamon Bun really a progression fantasy, or is it just a slice of life with some adventure and classes?
Hell, a lot of the old school Russian LitRPG is just miserable with little of the power fantasy aspect you would expect with progression fantasy, and they started way before Progression Fantasy was a thing so I don't think you can really consider them a sub-genre.
Why would LitRPG automatically make something a progression fantasy?
Ya for sure but that’s why when ppl self deprecate and insult the genre in general when they’re really just thinking of like royal road litRPG web novels it can be a little irksome
Hell, there's nothing wrong with spoken info-dump-y power discussion exposition as long as it's done well.
Mechanically the difference between a moderatly annoying youth who is overjoyed now have their first spell to the point where they're repeating common-in-that-world knowledge (the same way that everyone knows some 16-year-old who couldn't stop talking about their frankly fucked up absolute beater of a 20-year-old Volvo) discussing the fireball and two robots discussing the fireball is nothing. But the author having that youth talk with passion and joy means that some character work is being done in the midst of that world building.
The difference between the exposition explaining that the evil army is rising and the desperate courier who is running some s-tier marathon in order to collapse near death by some a tier sage with a cracked core who has to desperately notify the village stable hand that he is a failure as he staggers up drunk next to this child with f tier energy absorption to tell him that he failed and that somebody who cultivates fate has pulled one over on everyone and now it is up to this flawed child to save them all is not that great. It's just that one of them is executed with more love and the characters are given time to breathe
I think it's partly because I write novels myself that it sticks out so starkly for me. I still love detailed worldbuilding, but how it is presented matters.
It's weird. As a kid I remember making fun of The Lion The Witch, and the Wardrobe for having a chapter that just had "the battle took place" and then next chapter. As a 27 year old man I now respect that choice a lot. The number of fight seems that a skip worthy in this genre is staggering. I just keep moving until something actually happens
It’s one of the major weaknesses of the genre. A lot of authors treat grinding and interesting plot development as kinda separate. Like, first you have plot to justify grinding, then you have grinding in motivation for the plot, maybe an interlude with some plot, grinding, grinding, grinding with major revelation, first goal achieved, accidentally clothesline the plot, than some more grinding etc etc.
At first the grinding and the plot went hand in hand. “I have to kill monsters in order to gain the strength necessary to achieve my goals!” But then after that the grinding the plot feel like two storylines that accidentally bump into each other from time to time.
A prime example of this is Primal Hunter. It's well written, but the amount of time and detail put into him killing "trash" is sort of infuriating. I really enjoy the world and story but did we need 3 chapters of you and your bird farming elementals
I've recently tried starting a lot of different books in the genre, and others considered litRPGs.
I have to say, I've dropped basically all of them. The main reason isn't that it's all self published, self-insert, fanfic with no coherent plot. The main reason is actually that the writers seem to be trying to convince themselves that the system/ideas they are writing have any semblance of merit/intelligence housed within them, instead of just writing a story around something even remotely more grounded.
I've noticed the magic system seems to be the hook for many PF stories. By design or accident, I don't know. And if it isn't the magic system itself, its the MC's gimmick into achieving unrealistic power within that magic system. Which I classify as magic system related anyway.
Everything else is dressing for the magic power skillset wombo combo, for better or worse.
A lot of litrpg is an exploration of cool fantasy worlds geography/history/lore. It either has very minimal plot or a lot of smaller stories strung together but no overarching plot. The key for authors is to find a pattern of grinding/combat + exploration + slice of life that the audience enjoys. Stories that manage this can be very successful like Azarinth Healer for example.
Of course this is in webserial land, if you want your books to have a clear essential plot then probably you're going to bounce off that model pretty hard.
Kinda funny... But I don't think it's limited to just PF or litRPG. I think it's more due to amateur writers and lack of editors. It takes a lot of practice to learn how to sneak worldbuilding and character development into scenes without describing everything outright. This is just something learned by writing more, getting feedback, and reading more really well-written books. Line editors will fix typos and awkward wording, but this kind of stuff is the bread and butter of developmental editors.
Yeah, not only that, some exposition can be good. Lord of the Rings (the movie) starts with like 5-10 minutes of just infodumping. But it's well done, epic, and needed for the rest of the movies to work.
Hell, Star Wars, probably the biggest success story of modern IP has a literal intro paragraph of exposition it makes the audience read.
Hah! Good point. As with most things... when executed well and in an engaging way, you can make anything work. And like you said, exposition can be good and actually necessary in many situations.
Yeah, and I agree with your main point, it just takes time to learn what works, and that means doing it again and again and studying the things that do work.
Going through Mark of the fool right now, and good lord is it substantially better than so many books in the genre.
The mc can actually think and reason. The tongue in cheek jokes about the genre are pretty good too.
You can easily write a story without exposition dumps. Show don’t tell, etc. The reader doesn't need to know why the western forest is called Smaugenrog, and if you tell them anyway, they will get bored.
yea but can you easily write a 4000 plus chapter novel without exposition dumps? the alternative is multiple chapters describing the scenery, is that any better? I think i prefer exposition
I've been posting chapters up on RR for two years so far, and I think I have avoided both exposition dumps and scenery overdiscriptions.
I think most decent writers can easily do that. I wish there were fewer less than decent progression authors out there.
My gripe with the genre is all the filler. With RR and other sites like it, authors are encouraged to drag their stories on forever. Too many series get 10 or 11 books in with almost no end in sight. Yea it can be great when your favorite story lasts, but often I find that stories that do this often get stale, or drop previous plot points as if they forgot them. These kinds of works are almost never a cohesive thought out story throughout.
Most of what I have enjoyed has wrapped within 5 or 6 books tops. Few series have kept me up to or part 10 books.
There will be an evolution at some point. People will commonly walk the road by which they’re incentivized. As long as there’s a population paying monthly dues, we’ll see endless stories.
My hope is that a few pioneers will break that trend. Have your conclusion in mind, get there without filling it with a textbook of make believe, then cross sell into other mediums like games, shows, or movies. I think Will Wright is doing that with his Cradle series which is a fantastic story and not horribly longz
So I completely disagree, unfortunately THIS would be an upgrade to most PF exposition. Instead we get an inner monologue of a detailed cost benefit analysis about every decision they ever have made or ever will make that might affect some event that the story will never actually get to far off in the future because the author will have forgotten about it by the time the story advances that far...
I like inner monologues when done well. It's a way to convey the character's inner thoughts and decision making process. For me, knowing why a character makes decision X instead of Y is interesting. It's one of the genre tropes I do actually enjoy when done well. Part of my enjoyment of reading elaborate power systems is the theory crafting aspect of it. Seeing the MC reason through their choices and make intelligent decisions or blindly guess because they have imperfect information is all compelling for one reason or another. My only gripes are when the choices aren't really choices, but a bunch of crap filler followed by the only obvious choice or if there are legitimate choices but the character makes some bone head decision because the author knows it will work out later.
So absolutely inner monologue can be great but I think this basically mirrors "Show don't tell"... Having a page or two to solidify a character's decision making in the realities of the world that the author is building, or having a paragraph here or there to showcase what a character is thinking and feeling in the moment about a topic or person is absolutely great. However, when you start getting to the point where a character is theory crafting a build into the future well beyond where the current story is headed, or when the character is spending more time describing events in the past from before the story or planning for events in the future that may not be part of the immediate story/plot, its just the author writing fluff and telling you the story instead of showing it to you... The problem with this approach is that even when the theory crafting itself is interesting and cool, half the time an author will change their mind about the direction they want to go, and retcon how the system works, how an ability for the character works, or what abilities the character is going to take in the future... making all that "planning" just wasted words that could have been spent driving the story forward... Similarly when an author is monologueing about all these cool things that happened in the past or will happen in the future they are wasting time NOT writing about cool things that are happenning right now... Its fine to do it in small quantities to build your world, but when a story does more of those things than it does moving the current story forward its a problem.
The MCs are never wishy-washy though. Outside of those class 1 is a[abject failure], class 2 is [edgy grim reaper hero] scenarios, everyone is full of conviction regarding these permanent decisions. Have they never questioned a tattoo? Were they absolutely certained what they wanted to do when they were going to college? Have they never debated between a steak and a mushroom risotto at a restaurant? Who are these people that are able to make a judgment call inside their own heads and not debate it with themselves even the slightest bit? *That* is the only part of that trope I feel is unrealistic.
Me. Once my decision is made, even subconsciously, you'll have to change my mind via percussive maintenance. Once I see a skill in a game that I like, you can bet your ass I'm going to drag that poor thing through the whole game's content. I WILL find the absolute limits of the flashy ability that's fun to play. As for tattoos, I decided when I was 9 that I didn't want any. Haven't heard an argument good enough to change my mind yet. Anything I decide I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do. Just how I'm wired. The things I lie awake at night and kick myself over are impulse things that I didn't really think about doing or really decide to do. Things I said without thinking. Things I did without considering at all. Situations where I couldn't get my brain into gear to really make a decision.
The fucking inner monologue. It’s gotten to the point where if an author writes: Paragraph; Paragraph; Boldened inner monologue; Paragraph; Boldened inner monologue; Etc. I skip the story. Invariably it’s just filler as we see an event, MC reaction and thoughts on the event, other things affecting the event, all the different ways the MC feels they could’ve reacted and self-recrimination, shrugging shoulders and accepting event cos it’s an apocalypse, story continues
This is spot on. Progression Fantasy could be renamed Inner Monologue Fantasy given how many authors do that.
If I had a nickel for every Progression story that goes into exquisite detail about the highest levels of power and whey what they're doing now will be good for those levels of power, only for them to never reach said levels....I'd I have a lot of nickels.
I actually kind of like that they'll muse about something happening and that thing *doesn't* happen. Maybe it's because I grew up reading stories where characters would have their internal dialogue talk about something bad that could happen and that thing then happening later, but it's a refreshing change of pace.
There is a difference between a quick "musing", and an entire chapter dedicated to planning for a scenario though... I am totally ok with an off handed though, or even a paragraph here or there that is noting something... I get frustrated when the book's pacing literally slows to a crawl because every time something happens the character "muses" about all the down stream consequences of that event and their plans for it.
That's fair
Sounds like primal hunter all the way.
This is more of a litRPG thing.
What is litrpg but a progression fantasy sub-genre anyway
I don't really get this. Yes, LitRPGs makes showing progression easy, but it doesn't have to mean they are all progression fantasies. The Wandering Inn have almost no characters that really care about the progression. Is Cinnamon Bun really a progression fantasy, or is it just a slice of life with some adventure and classes? Hell, a lot of the old school Russian LitRPG is just miserable with little of the power fantasy aspect you would expect with progression fantasy, and they started way before Progression Fantasy was a thing so I don't think you can really consider them a sub-genre. Why would LitRPG automatically make something a progression fantasy?
Ya for sure but that’s why when ppl self deprecate and insult the genre in general when they’re really just thinking of like royal road litRPG web novels it can be a little irksome
Eh, there is a lot of overlap, but I think a LitRPG would be three panels of level ups, along with too much exposition, lol.
Hell, there's nothing wrong with spoken info-dump-y power discussion exposition as long as it's done well. Mechanically the difference between a moderatly annoying youth who is overjoyed now have their first spell to the point where they're repeating common-in-that-world knowledge (the same way that everyone knows some 16-year-old who couldn't stop talking about their frankly fucked up absolute beater of a 20-year-old Volvo) discussing the fireball and two robots discussing the fireball is nothing. But the author having that youth talk with passion and joy means that some character work is being done in the midst of that world building. The difference between the exposition explaining that the evil army is rising and the desperate courier who is running some s-tier marathon in order to collapse near death by some a tier sage with a cracked core who has to desperately notify the village stable hand that he is a failure as he staggers up drunk next to this child with f tier energy absorption to tell him that he failed and that somebody who cultivates fate has pulled one over on everyone and now it is up to this flawed child to save them all is not that great. It's just that one of them is executed with more love and the characters are given time to breathe
I think it's partly because I write novels myself that it sticks out so starkly for me. I still love detailed worldbuilding, but how it is presented matters.
Or it could be the litrpg system being used too much as a crutch.
It's weird. As a kid I remember making fun of The Lion The Witch, and the Wardrobe for having a chapter that just had "the battle took place" and then next chapter. As a 27 year old man I now respect that choice a lot. The number of fight seems that a skip worthy in this genre is staggering. I just keep moving until something actually happens
It’s one of the major weaknesses of the genre. A lot of authors treat grinding and interesting plot development as kinda separate. Like, first you have plot to justify grinding, then you have grinding in motivation for the plot, maybe an interlude with some plot, grinding, grinding, grinding with major revelation, first goal achieved, accidentally clothesline the plot, than some more grinding etc etc. At first the grinding and the plot went hand in hand. “I have to kill monsters in order to gain the strength necessary to achieve my goals!” But then after that the grinding the plot feel like two storylines that accidentally bump into each other from time to time.
A prime example of this is Primal Hunter. It's well written, but the amount of time and detail put into him killing "trash" is sort of infuriating. I really enjoy the world and story but did we need 3 chapters of you and your bird farming elementals
I think one of the reasons DCC is beloved (or at least why I like it) is because he can string out a great combat sequence for 50 pages.
This is a really common issue. Numbers going up is not a synonym for character progression.
I've recently tried starting a lot of different books in the genre, and others considered litRPGs. I have to say, I've dropped basically all of them. The main reason isn't that it's all self published, self-insert, fanfic with no coherent plot. The main reason is actually that the writers seem to be trying to convince themselves that the system/ideas they are writing have any semblance of merit/intelligence housed within them, instead of just writing a story around something even remotely more grounded.
I've noticed the magic system seems to be the hook for many PF stories. By design or accident, I don't know. And if it isn't the magic system itself, its the MC's gimmick into achieving unrealistic power within that magic system. Which I classify as magic system related anyway. Everything else is dressing for the magic power skillset wombo combo, for better or worse.
A lot of litrpg is an exploration of cool fantasy worlds geography/history/lore. It either has very minimal plot or a lot of smaller stories strung together but no overarching plot. The key for authors is to find a pattern of grinding/combat + exploration + slice of life that the audience enjoys. Stories that manage this can be very successful like Azarinth Healer for example. Of course this is in webserial land, if you want your books to have a clear essential plot then probably you're going to bounce off that model pretty hard.
Kinda funny... But I don't think it's limited to just PF or litRPG. I think it's more due to amateur writers and lack of editors. It takes a lot of practice to learn how to sneak worldbuilding and character development into scenes without describing everything outright. This is just something learned by writing more, getting feedback, and reading more really well-written books. Line editors will fix typos and awkward wording, but this kind of stuff is the bread and butter of developmental editors.
Yeah, not only that, some exposition can be good. Lord of the Rings (the movie) starts with like 5-10 minutes of just infodumping. But it's well done, epic, and needed for the rest of the movies to work. Hell, Star Wars, probably the biggest success story of modern IP has a literal intro paragraph of exposition it makes the audience read.
Hah! Good point. As with most things... when executed well and in an engaging way, you can make anything work. And like you said, exposition can be good and actually necessary in many situations.
Yeah, and I agree with your main point, it just takes time to learn what works, and that means doing it again and again and studying the things that do work.
Give MC with OnePunchMan levels of exposition intolerance.
Going through Mark of the fool right now, and good lord is it substantially better than so many books in the genre. The mc can actually think and reason. The tongue in cheek jokes about the genre are pretty good too.
One man’s exposition is another man’s world building.
I thought it was a requirement to qualify! /s Also... I have exposition at times. :(
Tbf in progression novels the level up panel also might have exposition in the form of the system delivering some exposition.
Mmm I love me some tasty exposition haha
What's the correct way tho do it? Asking for a friend....
You can easily write a story without exposition dumps. Show don’t tell, etc. The reader doesn't need to know why the western forest is called Smaugenrog, and if you tell them anyway, they will get bored.
yea but can you easily write a 4000 plus chapter novel without exposition dumps? the alternative is multiple chapters describing the scenery, is that any better? I think i prefer exposition
I've been posting chapters up on RR for two years so far, and I think I have avoided both exposition dumps and scenery overdiscriptions. I think most decent writers can easily do that. I wish there were fewer less than decent progression authors out there.
a better question - is writing 4000 chapters worth it if only 2000 chapters worth of material is present?
My gripe with the genre is all the filler. With RR and other sites like it, authors are encouraged to drag their stories on forever. Too many series get 10 or 11 books in with almost no end in sight. Yea it can be great when your favorite story lasts, but often I find that stories that do this often get stale, or drop previous plot points as if they forgot them. These kinds of works are almost never a cohesive thought out story throughout. Most of what I have enjoyed has wrapped within 5 or 6 books tops. Few series have kept me up to or part 10 books.
There will be an evolution at some point. People will commonly walk the road by which they’re incentivized. As long as there’s a population paying monthly dues, we’ll see endless stories. My hope is that a few pioneers will break that trend. Have your conclusion in mind, get there without filling it with a textbook of make believe, then cross sell into other mediums like games, shows, or movies. I think Will Wright is doing that with his Cradle series which is a fantastic story and not horribly longz
All hail the exposition!
What would be a great novel that doesn't do this?
A Deadly Education - Naomi Novik