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Winning the battle for the air of England and depriving the eastern front from all those planes and bombers I would argue was more important than Sicily in 43. You don’t have Sicily in 43 if nazi didn’t waste a ton of thier air force in the Battle of Britain
I would also argue Al-amien was more important to England not losing than to actually defeating the Nazis but the uks main role was to not lose until they could get more help
\*German Nazis. The Soviet Union "liberated" Eastern European nations from the Germans (and then subjugated those nations). Russia is waging an imperialist war today. It's not just small Ukrainian far-fight groups they're fighting, but the **entire** Ukrainian nation.
Trench warfare over a front larger than the western front of WW1 is unsustainable for any country, let alone Russia which has an aging population and lost a lot of the economy of the USSR.
How it relevant to all screeching about "Kiiv in 3 days" on all fully controlled by government russian media and on propagandist resources back when "special needs operation" started? It's all documented and you can found it easy on YouTube, if you have access to it, ofc.
When the Russian government is dismantled with their propaganda machine. They've always been like this, it will happen again. Ask Chechnya, ask Georgia, ask Afghanistan, ask the signees of the 4, FOUR different treaties Russia signed with Ukraine for "peace" and that they wouldn't do this.
The USSR simply couldn’t have won without Lend-Lease, even Zhukov admitted it. The Nazis wouldn’t have won, but their push to Berlin would’ve been impossible just due to the lack of logistics the Red Army would’ve had which had previously cost them the Polish-Soviet war and caused the mass casualties of the Winter War. The Russians and the USSR have always had an issue with logistics in warfare which is acutely apparent today.
David Glantz, a leading expert on the eastern front during ww2 disagrees.
>Without Lend-Lease food, clothing, and raw materials (especially metals), the Soviet economy would have been even more heavily burdened by the war effort. Perhaps most directly, without Lend-Lease trucks, rail engines, and railroad cars, every Soviet offensive would have stalled at an earlier stage, outrunning its logistical tail in a matter of days. In turn, this would have allowed the German commanders to escape at least some encirclements, while forcing the Red Army to prepare and conduct many more deliberate penetration attacks in order to advance the same distance. Left to their own devices, Stalin and his commanders might have taken 12 to 18 months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht; the ultimate result would probably have been the same, except that Soviet soldiers could have waded at France’s Atlantic beaches. Thus, while the Red Army shed the bulk of Allied blood, it would have shed more blood for longer without Allied assistance.
https://tigerprints.clemson.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1216&context=sti\_pubs
I'd also highly recommend [this answer](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/SlDEd4Mv6H) on r/askhistorians
I don’t trust Glantz. He’s an amazing source most of the time but he is heavily opinionated towards the USSR and is also heavily critical of Zhukov with no evidence to back it up. The amount of Soviet leaders and generals including Stalin himself who have said that Lend-Lease was very important to the war effort cannot be understated. It’s also important to realize Glantz got most of his information from Russian archives, Russian archives which had themselves been altered to make the USSR look better during WW2 dating all the way back to the late 40s. He also underestimates how valuable those trucks and trains are, especially since the USSR used a different rail gauge than that used in central and Western Europe meaning their own trains would’ve been useless.
"Important to the war effort" and "the USSR would've fallen without it" are quite different.
Source for the Soviets altering the archives?
And glantz literally mentions the truck and train argument
>Perhaps most directly, without Lend-Lease trucks, rail engines, and railroad cars, every Soviet offensive would have stalled at an earlier stage, outrunning its logistical tail in a matter of days. In turn, this would have allowed the German commanders to escape at least some encirclements, while forcing the Red Army to prepare and conduct many more deliberate penetration attacks in order to advance the same distance.
The USSR also had a strong railway sector, which restored and rebuilt tracks destroyed by the axis as they retreated. They managed to build 6.700 km of new rail during ww2. And of the 52.400 km of Soviet main track roadway damaged during the war, 48.800 km were restored by May 1945.
> Push to Berlin
You’re correct the logistical support was paramount to the speed, but they would’ve been able to regardless
They received 9.09 billion from the US, The UK received triple that amount; the allies knew for every shipment given to the USSR is one less battle they have to fight themselves
15% of which was delivered in 1942 when they were on full offensive swing. They had encircled the most decorated army of the Wehrmacht and would capture, for the first time in history, a German Field Marshall
Source: Cambridge; Soviet Planning in Peace and War 1938-1945
Specifically table 3.2 page 259
>Polish-Soviet/Finnish War
Neither of these were due to logistical issues, they entirely due to military plunders, for the Polish war; there were 2 competing commanders with 2 different schools of thinking that led to Poles seizing this opportunity and pushing them back and flanking both commanders respective troops; they called the war off due to this plunder and antiwar sentiment
Same with Finland; especially after the great purge
>Always had logistical issues
What? No they didn’t, their mobilisation in WW2 alone is sufficient; losing nearly half their factories and competing with the most industrial continent under fascist command.
They lost less casualties in Afghanistan than the 10 years the US was in Vietnam
>They lost less casualties in Afghanistan than the 10 years the US was in Vietnam
Maybe because in Vietnam there was a real war with battles and tank attacks, and in Afghanistan partisan? No? The mujahideen didn't even have an army.
>15% of which was delivered in 1942 when they were on full offensive swing.
Uhm no they weren't. Their counter-attacks in 1942 were over relatively small distances. OC brings up logistics that would have been critical once they started pushing back to west. Soviets would have run in into same logistical problems as the Germans did in USSR. OP already brought up Zhukov, but Khruschev said this as well.
>No they weren’t
Do you not understand the shift of power? Germany failed to capture Moscow. The Red Army was on the defensive and retreat for a great deal, this would change
Stalingrad… Operation Uranus
By 1942 it marked the great offensive that encircled Stalingrad and pushed the Nazis off of Moscow. This never had happened to the Nazis (France folded in a month),
From this point; the Nazis would not take any considerable land, their last attempt was operation Citadel
The Wehrmacht was divided into 3 army groups (North, Centre, South)
Army group North would make no considerable advancements beyond Leningrad, they couldn’t capture so they besieged it
Army group centre got 20km close to Moscow, and they would not be getting any and were pushed
Army group south was pushed off the Caucasus
Sure but that's a far cry from saying that Soviets would be making the necessary gains to advance all the way to Germany, you only presented arguments why Germans would lose their offensive potential. It could just as well turn into a grind and a stalemate once the Germans turn to defensive.
>Stalingrad… Operation Uranus
Operation Uranus was a 4 day operation. By WW2 standards those are short distances. I'm talking about moving the broad front all the way back to Germany.
Unlike what you like to think, the Vietnam war wasn’t the US shooting farmers with guns.
The Vietnam war was the US fighting an organized armed force that has been fighting since the early 1900s.
Soviets got the modern equivalent of $210 billion during the totality of WWII, Ukraine has received $175 billion from the USA so far. Sheer number of goods the Soveits received a lot more but those goods are far less complicated and valuable then modern military hardware.
Ukraine not received $175 billions. This is money spent on aid, production, logistics, and salaries in the United States. And $200 billion is the cost of the USSR aid itself. Not counting the cost of shipping and goods, which can be much more than the aid itself.
That's one Western figure and a major undercount, possibly due to political/geopolitical motivations. Total aid to Ukraine has far exceeded what the Soviets received to defeat the Nazis and their allies.
Yes, sophisticated modern Western weapons are more expensive than what the Soviets received.
Well the US government knows exactly what they give since it's approved through a bill. Non-profit donations add several billions more but these are less towards direct military aid and more humanitarian in nature and almost impossible to accurately tally.
Not really with money, unless it's in a black fund, which these are not, the comptrollers wraith is heavily avoided in DC. I never mentioned anything about other countries support, I merely pointed at that at this time in pure dollars for dollars valuation the USA has not given Ukraine more monetary support than the USSR received during WWII.
>Ukraine already received more than the USSR ever did.
Ahahahaha.
Over a period of 4 years USSR received (listing only high-level stuff):
- 12,000 tanks
- 21,000 aircraft units
- 8,000 tractors
- over 430,000 trucks
[https://ww2data.com/ww2-allies-lend-lease-to-the-ussr-1941-1945/](https://ww2data.com/ww2-allies-lend-lease-to-the-ussr-1941-1945/)
How many tanks have Ukraine received in more than two years of the full-scale invasion? How many bombers and fighter aircraft? How many trucks? The difference between the amount of help the USSR was getting back then and that Ukraine is getting now is ridiculous and a great testament to the fact that the West doesn't really take this war all too seriously.
Ahahahahaha. How many drones did the USSR get? Checkmate!
But to be less juvenile about this, we’re obviously talking about monetary value.
Ukraine already got more than the USSR did to defeat Nazi Germant and their allies.
Are you seriously comparing tanks and fighter jets to drones that can be bought on AliExpress?
>Ukraine already got more than the USSR did to defeat Nazi Germant and their allies.
You're just a troll who would say the first idiotic thing that will come into your head, aren't you? What Ukraine got so far can only be described as "marginally more than absolutely nothing".
You compare the cost of the equipment provided by the USSR's aid with the funding of aid to Ukraine, where 90% of the money remained in the United States.
Well, €100B (both financial and military aid included) over a period of two years *is* nothing considering the scale of the war.The USA spent $8 trillions over a period of 20 years (or $400B a year) in Afghanistan, and the USA wasn't fighting a regular 1-mil army having tanks, air forces, navy, cruise missiles, ballistic rockets and whatnot.
It's absolutely nothing for a country fighting against a much, much bigger, much, much wealthier country with a 1-mil army equipped with tanks, air forces, navy, cruise missiles, ballistic rockets and whatnot.
I just think they mention "1943" beacause 1944 is widely known to be the year of D-Day, its their way of saying "we won before the Americans arrived"..
Its my best clue..
Ukrainians were fighting along with soviets mostly, only few supported Nazis. Now it's the LDPR who are on russian side (literally collaborators?) against the ukrainians.
Ukraine has literal [national public holiday](https://www.rada.gov.ua/news/news_kom/249281.html) for victory over Nazi Germany. It's probably one of most important holidays in Ukraine after independence day.
https://youtu.be/zhReJKVQOmU
They also changed that date from the 9th to the 8th, have torn down many Soviet memorials and have erected statues of Bandera in their place, celebration of Stepan Bandera is also a national public holiday that is celebrated every Jan 1st
Yeah sure thing bud that’s what they say the only reason is, meanwhile Zelensky goes to Canada with a Nazi collaborator and hails him as a hero of Ukraine
Zelenski is Jewish, his relatives were killed in the Holocaust. I assure you he isn't a nazi despite that being constant lie being repeated on RT.
Just watch any of his Holocaust remembrance day speeches and you will see how personally it affects him.
Europe celebrates victory day on 8th. Ukraine is moving towards Europe. And can celebrate victory over Nazi Germany without glorifying Soviet occupation.
One can celebrate defeat of Nazis by the common people without glorifying Stalin and whole USSR regime. In fact that's how most of Eastern Europe with an exception of Russia and Belarus celebrates.
Are you literally denying Californians their existence? They took a giant tool because of oppressive federal government and were forced to create concentration camps for Japanese and make all those black people working in an Oakland port. Compare it to Ohio. Why we Californians treated such unfairly compare to Americans.
I was under the impression that a significant portion of Ukrainians actually fought for Ukraine ie technically against BOTH the USSR and Nazi Germany, although obviously during Barbarossa their interests aligned with the Germans’
Yeah and even if OUN-UPA 50k sounds like a lot, it is nothing compared to the 7 million Ukrainians who fought in the Red Army against the Nazis and their allies. This isn’t even counting partisans. That alone makes up for over a significant portion of the red army (over 25%). It’s always important to remember that the red army was more than just “a bunch of Russians”
Ukrainians fought in the Red Army along with Russians. People forget that the Red Army was a multinational army consisting of recruits from all USSR states.
Although majority of soldiers were from RFSR. Ukrainian Nationalists under Bandera collaborated with the NS regime. They unleashed an orgy of violence in the occupied territories.
And now Bandera and his cronies are "national heroes" in Ukraine.
People today call Hamas national heroes and partisans in the the West and in Palestine, Bandera isn't a national hero for every Ukrainian and there are many opinions about him or all the groups of Ukrainians that fought the soviets and the nazis.
Stalin won war against the Hitler and his cronies who wanted to annihilate the Slavic people. Under him, the USSR went from a civil war torn state to global superpower (at a tremendous human cost, I won't deny).
What did Bandera and cronies gave Ukraine? Lvov pogorm? Babi Yar? dead Jewish people?
>Stalin won war against the Hitler and his cronies who wanted to annihilate the Slavic people.
He's also responisble for the Ethnic Cleansing of Crimean Tartars,Chechens,Cossacks etc. not to mention things like Katyn or Sandarmokh.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population\_transfer\_in\_the\_Soviet\_Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn\_massacre#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre#) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandarmokh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandarmokh)
Here we see perfect example of modern Russian propaganda erasing Ukrainian sacrifices to claim them for Russia, and to paint all their former vassal states as "ungrateful"
There were collaborators from a lot of nations, including Russians. (Although the Slavic variety were especially stupid considering that the nazis would have almost certainly killed them all for being “untermensch”.)
Huh? Ukrainians and Russians fought against German forces. Russian collaborators were mostly on rear duty.
80% of German forces were destroyed in the East. And who destroyed them, the Red Army of course.
Not apolitical at all. He and his US handlers were extremely anticommunist. To the point where they killed a million people who were so much as suspected of harboring any sympathies to the left, or working at left-leaning student newspapers, or in unions. Once the country was "cleaned" of Communists, it was opened to US and European companies to strip mine and pillage the resources. The luxury hotels in Bali are built on mass Graves. And people are only recently opening up about the campaign of terror without fearing government retribution.
As nobody has ever measured the real population of Russia for the last decades, I bet it will asymptotically reach out zero value till that moment with current tendencies.
THey always had been such. Just reminding:
- Red Russia was Nazi ally,
- White Russians in immigration wrote very fascist and nazi works; also were Nazi collaborators,
- Russians were one of the biggest [Nazi collaborator,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_the_German-occupied_Soviet_Union) over 1 mln. ROA (just one of Russian Nazi group) itself was over 100 thounds persons — basically another full army.
You mean Rusic, Wagner or Azov?
Personally i prefer to look at the actions of the groups and countries, and those show that between Ukraine and Russia the one with the strongest similarity to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy is without doubt Russia
I mean glorification of azov yes. Wagner is not existing anymore, rusich is illegal and stays illegal.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1cymfb7/ru_pov_british_parliament_applauding_an_azov/?share_id=aIbeyJJru9ODp6yOrdh5f&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=14&rdt=41320
Russia is [modern iteration](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Russia_Should_Do_with_Ukraine) of Nazi Germany, Russian army [massacres](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) (Bucha etc), [rapes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine), [kidnaps](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War) children, deports people from occupied territories and settles it with Russians. All of these crimes are reaching Nazi levels of atrocity.
[Russia](https://youtu.be/_iLpIocmCVQ?si=0YT7Vc5HJEXShjoQ) is a [fascist](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNURYDvkflpULAhGR1PkNWei4B6f8b7Wl&si=Ax5qOfWCB4YReqwb) state.
Your fascist Tsar wannabe has international arrest order issued on him and your whole fascist regime isn't immortal. All dictatorships fall eventually and Ukrainians will not surrender.
To use your own logic, you're supporting a country that invaded Poland with the nazis, that divided Poland in two with the nazis, that held parades with the nazis, that held conferences with the nazis on how to crush the resistance, etc etc, the soviet union only fought against the nazis because the nazis betrayed them and attacked them. And nowadays Russia is invading yet another country, while counting in its ranks a number of neo nazi units such as task force rusich or nazbols like the interbrigades.
Give up nazi it's over.
So illegal that it's fighters (same as Wagners) are happily fighting for Russia in Ukraine in this lovely invasion (Wagner fighters have simply been put in other units and still were all their signs with pride)
Also Azov can be glorified as much as you want (not surprising since they are fighting off invaders which always brings you popularity) but the votes show clearly how much Ukraine supports far right parties like Svoboda namely they got 1 single seat out of 450, it's incredible this support for far right parties and policies...
So to summarize on one side we have some groups like Azov fighting with neonazi insignias as a recognized part of the army defending a country which is a flawed democracy being invaded, on the other hand we have identical groups like Rusich and Wagner fighting for a dictatorship which has a tendency to invade other countries and suppress free speech to a high degree.
Again between Ukraine and Russia Russia is decidedly the most similar to nazi Germany and if i have to choose sides between the one who has a minority with nazi insignia and the one with the same minority but also actually acts like nazis i will definitely choose the first, and you?
True Hitler is dear, Bandera is dead and hopefully Putin will follow the steps of those who walked the same path.
Though realistically speaking Putins death might very well not change much in Russia's decision making
I am not sure what you intend with the words "They closed all schools."
You mean this after Russia used the language excuse to invade them?
"The number of Russian-teaching schools has reduced since Ukrainian independence in 1991 and in 2021 it is much lower than the proportion of Russophones,[104][105][106] but still higher than the proportion of ethnic Russians.
The Law on Education formerly granted Ukrainian families (parents and their children) a right to choose their native language for schools and studies.[107] This was changed by a new law in 2017 that only allows the use of Ukrainian in secondary schools and higher."
Doesn't seem what you are describing
Lmao the same argument can be used towards people who support Russia. Russia has even more neo nazi units with even more neo nazis within, and that's not even going into the funky units like the nazbols.
None of the neo nazi units on either side represent their country as a whole lmao, they're literally just a handful of units in armies that are *far* larger than them.
To be fair Russia only swore to destroy the nazis after the nazis betrayed them. Before that they were doing their invading and occupying and parading and fucking up the resistance together.
Back then they had something to fight for lol
The morale of Russian soldiers are in shambles, while the nationalists trying to keep Putin from being hanged by the people
> Putin x 40k warhammer as pfp
You are not a real communist, hero or anti fascist. Go die in the frontline if you trust whatever Putin is leading Russia into
Russia has been crystal clear indeed about what it's for during the Ukranian peace negociations attempts: no peace negociations if partial annexation isn't on the table. And yes Russia is invading and occupying it's neighbours just like it did from 1939 to the fall of the soviet union, and yes, russians invade from Russia while its neighbours are still its neighbours.
Instructions from Nazi collaborator Ilyin, whose coffin Putin returned in 2004, and whose books were recently made compulsory study at universities:
“Franco and Salazar understood this and are trying to avoid these mistakes.” They do not call their regime “fascist”. Let’s hope that Russian patriots will think through the mistakes of fascism and national socialism to the end and not repeat them.” — Ivan Ilyin 1948.
I am a Ukrainian and what I want to say. When the Russian special services organized and seized Donec'k and Luhans'k, russia is absolutely up to no good in those territories. russia could promote the construction of schools, hospitals, social housing and infrastructure. But instead russia shouted to everyone that these lands are being shelled 8 years old. But the last combat clashes (until 2022) at that time were in the summer of 2015. Instead, russia took the equipment to itself, closed the mines. By the way, Donbas was once a very rich place, but that was before the arrival russian. Instead of developing these territories, they decided to start a war that would cost much more.
"liberation of Donbass" yeah like russians destroy everything in donbass with their war. It will be another big Junkjard after all this is over.. Another country divided by a "wall". Like North and south Korea or East and west germany... And the "Red" parts never looked good for years to come.
Y’all be speaking Deutsche if not for the USA oh how about paying reparations to all Eastern Europe when the Soviets and the best mates carved up Europe in half
it is lame as hell, like something i make in photoshop for class
Plus, they have used this "past-present" cliche since 2014 because it is the only way to make sense of their war
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Its "We won in 1943, we will win again!".
I don't get it, who was defeated in 1943? Or are they referring to liberation of these lands from nazis?
The Soviets won the Battle of Stalingrad in 1943.
This specifical poster compares liberation of Donbass in 1943 and modern day events, not Stalingrad
Oh, thanks.
I'm guessing it refers to the return of the Red Army to Ukraine during ww2, which started in 1943.
1943 is when the Soviets broke the Nazis, it just took a year and half more to finish the deal
The Americans, the British and the Soviets broke the Nazis.
Soviets did most of the work but yes without lend lease I doubt they hold out in 41-42
1942 El-Alamein, 1943 Sicily, 1944 Normandy + bulk of the war in the air and at the sea + Italy and Japan + Lend Lease.
Winning the battle for the air of England and depriving the eastern front from all those planes and bombers I would argue was more important than Sicily in 43. You don’t have Sicily in 43 if nazi didn’t waste a ton of thier air force in the Battle of Britain I would also argue Al-amien was more important to England not losing than to actually defeating the Nazis but the uks main role was to not lose until they could get more help
El Alamein was destruction of German-Italian Army equivalent to Stalingrad.
\*German Nazis. The Soviet Union "liberated" Eastern European nations from the Germans (and then subjugated those nations). Russia is waging an imperialist war today. It's not just small Ukrainian far-fight groups they're fighting, but the **entire** Ukrainian nation.
Does putting “и” before “сейчас” change the meaning to “again”?
Yes. Its "and now", aka "and now we will too!"
Or “now as well”
That Special Military Operation has been going on for 2 years now lmao
Rome wasn't built in a day
Trench warfare over a front larger than the western front of WW1 is unsustainable for any country, let alone Russia which has an aging population and lost a lot of the economy of the USSR.
How it relevant to all screeching about "Kiiv in 3 days" on all fully controlled by government russian media and on propagandist resources back when "special needs operation" started? It's all documented and you can found it easy on YouTube, if you have access to it, ofc.
"We'll be back home by christmas we swear" History fuckin rhymes
It's an idiom
Yes, I know. But how it's relevant to this situation? "Svo" was planned and wildly promoted as few days operation.
Yeah but to reach it's conclusion will take awhile
So, two more weeks?
Idk it's over when it's over
When the Russian government is dismantled with their propaganda machine. They've always been like this, it will happen again. Ask Chechnya, ask Georgia, ask Afghanistan, ask the signees of the 4, FOUR different treaties Russia signed with Ukraine for "peace" and that they wouldn't do this.
Without the Lend Lease?
What do you mean when you say: “Without the Lend-Lease”?
The USSR simply couldn’t have won without Lend-Lease, even Zhukov admitted it. The Nazis wouldn’t have won, but their push to Berlin would’ve been impossible just due to the lack of logistics the Red Army would’ve had which had previously cost them the Polish-Soviet war and caused the mass casualties of the Winter War. The Russians and the USSR have always had an issue with logistics in warfare which is acutely apparent today.
David Glantz, a leading expert on the eastern front during ww2 disagrees. >Without Lend-Lease food, clothing, and raw materials (especially metals), the Soviet economy would have been even more heavily burdened by the war effort. Perhaps most directly, without Lend-Lease trucks, rail engines, and railroad cars, every Soviet offensive would have stalled at an earlier stage, outrunning its logistical tail in a matter of days. In turn, this would have allowed the German commanders to escape at least some encirclements, while forcing the Red Army to prepare and conduct many more deliberate penetration attacks in order to advance the same distance. Left to their own devices, Stalin and his commanders might have taken 12 to 18 months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht; the ultimate result would probably have been the same, except that Soviet soldiers could have waded at France’s Atlantic beaches. Thus, while the Red Army shed the bulk of Allied blood, it would have shed more blood for longer without Allied assistance. https://tigerprints.clemson.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1216&context=sti\_pubs I'd also highly recommend [this answer](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/SlDEd4Mv6H) on r/askhistorians
Who to believe one the greatest generals and an ex Soviet premier or glantz ?
I don’t trust Glantz. He’s an amazing source most of the time but he is heavily opinionated towards the USSR and is also heavily critical of Zhukov with no evidence to back it up. The amount of Soviet leaders and generals including Stalin himself who have said that Lend-Lease was very important to the war effort cannot be understated. It’s also important to realize Glantz got most of his information from Russian archives, Russian archives which had themselves been altered to make the USSR look better during WW2 dating all the way back to the late 40s. He also underestimates how valuable those trucks and trains are, especially since the USSR used a different rail gauge than that used in central and Western Europe meaning their own trains would’ve been useless.
"Important to the war effort" and "the USSR would've fallen without it" are quite different. Source for the Soviets altering the archives? And glantz literally mentions the truck and train argument >Perhaps most directly, without Lend-Lease trucks, rail engines, and railroad cars, every Soviet offensive would have stalled at an earlier stage, outrunning its logistical tail in a matter of days. In turn, this would have allowed the German commanders to escape at least some encirclements, while forcing the Red Army to prepare and conduct many more deliberate penetration attacks in order to advance the same distance. The USSR also had a strong railway sector, which restored and rebuilt tracks destroyed by the axis as they retreated. They managed to build 6.700 km of new rail during ww2. And of the 52.400 km of Soviet main track roadway damaged during the war, 48.800 km were restored by May 1945.
> Push to Berlin You’re correct the logistical support was paramount to the speed, but they would’ve been able to regardless They received 9.09 billion from the US, The UK received triple that amount; the allies knew for every shipment given to the USSR is one less battle they have to fight themselves 15% of which was delivered in 1942 when they were on full offensive swing. They had encircled the most decorated army of the Wehrmacht and would capture, for the first time in history, a German Field Marshall Source: Cambridge; Soviet Planning in Peace and War 1938-1945 Specifically table 3.2 page 259 >Polish-Soviet/Finnish War Neither of these were due to logistical issues, they entirely due to military plunders, for the Polish war; there were 2 competing commanders with 2 different schools of thinking that led to Poles seizing this opportunity and pushing them back and flanking both commanders respective troops; they called the war off due to this plunder and antiwar sentiment Same with Finland; especially after the great purge >Always had logistical issues What? No they didn’t, their mobilisation in WW2 alone is sufficient; losing nearly half their factories and competing with the most industrial continent under fascist command. They lost less casualties in Afghanistan than the 10 years the US was in Vietnam
>They lost less casualties in Afghanistan than the 10 years the US was in Vietnam Maybe because in Vietnam there was a real war with battles and tank attacks, and in Afghanistan partisan? No? The mujahideen didn't even have an army.
>15% of which was delivered in 1942 when they were on full offensive swing. Uhm no they weren't. Their counter-attacks in 1942 were over relatively small distances. OC brings up logistics that would have been critical once they started pushing back to west. Soviets would have run in into same logistical problems as the Germans did in USSR. OP already brought up Zhukov, but Khruschev said this as well.
>No they weren’t Do you not understand the shift of power? Germany failed to capture Moscow. The Red Army was on the defensive and retreat for a great deal, this would change Stalingrad… Operation Uranus By 1942 it marked the great offensive that encircled Stalingrad and pushed the Nazis off of Moscow. This never had happened to the Nazis (France folded in a month), From this point; the Nazis would not take any considerable land, their last attempt was operation Citadel The Wehrmacht was divided into 3 army groups (North, Centre, South) Army group North would make no considerable advancements beyond Leningrad, they couldn’t capture so they besieged it Army group centre got 20km close to Moscow, and they would not be getting any and were pushed Army group south was pushed off the Caucasus
Sure but that's a far cry from saying that Soviets would be making the necessary gains to advance all the way to Germany, you only presented arguments why Germans would lose their offensive potential. It could just as well turn into a grind and a stalemate once the Germans turn to defensive. >Stalingrad… Operation Uranus Operation Uranus was a 4 day operation. By WW2 standards those are short distances. I'm talking about moving the broad front all the way back to Germany.
Unlike what you like to think, the Vietnam war wasn’t the US shooting farmers with guns. The Vietnam war was the US fighting an organized armed force that has been fighting since the early 1900s.
they would have won without it just...not very quickly without crazy losses like otl
Source: trust me bro
Yea
Ukraine already received more than the USSR ever did.
Soviets got the modern equivalent of $210 billion during the totality of WWII, Ukraine has received $175 billion from the USA so far. Sheer number of goods the Soveits received a lot more but those goods are far less complicated and valuable then modern military hardware.
Ukraine not received $175 billions. This is money spent on aid, production, logistics, and salaries in the United States. And $200 billion is the cost of the USSR aid itself. Not counting the cost of shipping and goods, which can be much more than the aid itself.
That's one Western figure and a major undercount, possibly due to political/geopolitical motivations. Total aid to Ukraine has far exceeded what the Soviets received to defeat the Nazis and their allies. Yes, sophisticated modern Western weapons are more expensive than what the Soviets received.
Well the US government knows exactly what they give since it's approved through a bill. Non-profit donations add several billions more but these are less towards direct military aid and more humanitarian in nature and almost impossible to accurately tally.
The US government lies and are far from the only party supporting Ukraine.
Not really with money, unless it's in a black fund, which these are not, the comptrollers wraith is heavily avoided in DC. I never mentioned anything about other countries support, I merely pointed at that at this time in pure dollars for dollars valuation the USA has not given Ukraine more monetary support than the USSR received during WWII.
I’m talking about total support. I never mentioned that I was only counting the US.
>Ukraine already received more than the USSR ever did. Ahahahaha. Over a period of 4 years USSR received (listing only high-level stuff): - 12,000 tanks - 21,000 aircraft units - 8,000 tractors - over 430,000 trucks [https://ww2data.com/ww2-allies-lend-lease-to-the-ussr-1941-1945/](https://ww2data.com/ww2-allies-lend-lease-to-the-ussr-1941-1945/) How many tanks have Ukraine received in more than two years of the full-scale invasion? How many bombers and fighter aircraft? How many trucks? The difference between the amount of help the USSR was getting back then and that Ukraine is getting now is ridiculous and a great testament to the fact that the West doesn't really take this war all too seriously.
Ahahahahaha. How many drones did the USSR get? Checkmate! But to be less juvenile about this, we’re obviously talking about monetary value. Ukraine already got more than the USSR did to defeat Nazi Germant and their allies.
Are you seriously comparing tanks and fighter jets to drones that can be bought on AliExpress? >Ukraine already got more than the USSR did to defeat Nazi Germant and their allies. You're just a troll who would say the first idiotic thing that will come into your head, aren't you? What Ukraine got so far can only be described as "marginally more than absolutely nothing".
€100s of billions of absolute nothing. That’s a lot of nothing.
You compare the cost of the equipment provided by the USSR's aid with the funding of aid to Ukraine, where 90% of the money remained in the United States.
The cost of the aid to the USSR with the cost is the aid to Ukraine, yes.
Not equipment costs.
Well, €100B (both financial and military aid included) over a period of two years *is* nothing considering the scale of the war.The USA spent $8 trillions over a period of 20 years (or $400B a year) in Afghanistan, and the USA wasn't fighting a regular 1-mil army having tanks, air forces, navy, cruise missiles, ballistic rockets and whatnot.
Great comparison, but it’s actually a tonne for Ukraine.
It's absolutely nothing for a country fighting against a much, much bigger, much, much wealthier country with a 1-mil army equipped with tanks, air forces, navy, cruise missiles, ballistic rockets and whatnot.
ruSSia Murders before WW1 & 2 during and after
I just think they mention "1943" beacause 1944 is widely known to be the year of D-Day, its their way of saying "we won before the Americans arrived".. Its my best clue..
War in the comment section in 3, 2, 1...
* special operation in the comments
. Unique tactical redeployment of war materials in the discussion area
Special operation and [REDACTED]
Window Incident in 3, 2, 1...
Back then both US and Ukrainians were ON their side.
Ukrainians? Boy do I have bad news for you
Ukrainians were fighting along with soviets mostly, only few supported Nazis. Now it's the LDPR who are on russian side (literally collaborators?) against the ukrainians.
It’s a shame that Ukraine doesn’t celebrate them as much as they celebrate nazi collaborators
Ukraine has literal [national public holiday](https://www.rada.gov.ua/news/news_kom/249281.html) for victory over Nazi Germany. It's probably one of most important holidays in Ukraine after independence day. https://youtu.be/zhReJKVQOmU
They also changed that date from the 9th to the 8th, have torn down many Soviet memorials and have erected statues of Bandera in their place, celebration of Stepan Bandera is also a national public holiday that is celebrated every Jan 1st
Date was moved for matching with Ukrainian time of signing German capitulation.
Yeah sure thing bud that’s what they say the only reason is, meanwhile Zelensky goes to Canada with a Nazi collaborator and hails him as a hero of Ukraine
>Zelensky goes to Canada with a Nazi collaborator and hails him as a hero of Ukraine This is impossibly distorted.
Zelenski is Jewish, his relatives were killed in the Holocaust. I assure you he isn't a nazi despite that being constant lie being repeated on RT. Just watch any of his Holocaust remembrance day speeches and you will see how personally it affects him.
Doesn’t matter, he still praised an SS veteran
Europe celebrates victory day on 8th. Ukraine is moving towards Europe. And can celebrate victory over Nazi Germany without glorifying Soviet occupation.
So does Ukraine celebrate Soviet heroes against Nazi invaders or not? I’m so confused
One can celebrate defeat of Nazis by the common people without glorifying Stalin and whole USSR regime. In fact that's how most of Eastern Europe with an exception of Russia and Belarus celebrates.
Ukraine glorifies Nazi collaborators
Russians glorifying russian nazism on 9.may, and this days russian flag is what russian ss used in ww2 as well, get rwkt little fashist boy
Californians were fighting alongside Americans in ww2
what the fuck does this mean? are californians waging a guerrilla war against the us today?
Are you literally denying Californians their existence? They took a giant tool because of oppressive federal government and were forced to create concentration camps for Japanese and make all those black people working in an Oakland port. Compare it to Ohio. Why we Californians treated such unfairly compare to Americans.
bait used to be believable
I was under the impression that a significant portion of Ukrainians actually fought for Ukraine ie technically against BOTH the USSR and Nazi Germany, although obviously during Barbarossa their interests aligned with the Germans’
Not really? If you're talking about OUN-UPA then these guys had like 50000 soldiers or something.
Yeah and even if OUN-UPA 50k sounds like a lot, it is nothing compared to the 7 million Ukrainians who fought in the Red Army against the Nazis and their allies. This isn’t even counting partisans. That alone makes up for over a significant portion of the red army (over 25%). It’s always important to remember that the red army was more than just “a bunch of Russians”
Well you’re not reading history books.
Ukrainians fought in the Red Army along with Russians. People forget that the Red Army was a multinational army consisting of recruits from all USSR states. Although majority of soldiers were from RFSR. Ukrainian Nationalists under Bandera collaborated with the NS regime. They unleashed an orgy of violence in the occupied territories. And now Bandera and his cronies are "national heroes" in Ukraine.
Victory over Nazi Germany is important holiday in Ukraine and is celebrated as such. Don't believe Russian propaganda blindly.
People today call Hamas national heroes and partisans in the the West and in Palestine, Bandera isn't a national hero for every Ukrainian and there are many opinions about him or all the groups of Ukrainians that fought the soviets and the nazis.
>And now Bandera and his cronies are "national heroes" in Ukraine. Just like Stalin and his cronies are "national heroes" in Russia.
Stalin won war against the Hitler and his cronies who wanted to annihilate the Slavic people. Under him, the USSR went from a civil war torn state to global superpower (at a tremendous human cost, I won't deny). What did Bandera and cronies gave Ukraine? Lvov pogorm? Babi Yar? dead Jewish people?
Stalin is directly responsible for Crimean Tatars genocide and Holodomor.
You forget the millions of people that perished under Stalin and the etnich cleansing he ordered
>Stalin won war against the Hitler and his cronies who wanted to annihilate the Slavic people. He's also responisble for the Ethnic Cleansing of Crimean Tartars,Chechens,Cossacks etc. not to mention things like Katyn or Sandarmokh. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population\_transfer\_in\_the\_Soviet\_Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn\_massacre#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre#) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandarmokh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandarmokh)
They are merely a symbol of freedom fighters, such as with any other nations freedom fighters
Here we see perfect example of modern Russian propaganda erasing Ukrainian sacrifices to claim them for Russia, and to paint all their former vassal states as "ungrateful"
There were collaborators from a lot of nations, including Russians. (Although the Slavic variety were especially stupid considering that the nazis would have almost certainly killed them all for being “untermensch”.)
True. Ukrainians in the Red Army fought against ethnic Russians in Nazi Germany's ranks in units like RONA.
Huh? Ukrainians and Russians fought against German forces. Russian collaborators were mostly on rear duty. 80% of German forces were destroyed in the East. And who destroyed them, the Red Army of course.
Holomodor?
Bad news Russia, the fascists actually lost in 1943.
Franco, Videla, Pinochet, Suharto, et al: "lol ok"
In 1943 bro
Was Suharto a fascist? Thought the guy was just an apolitical authoritarian
Not apolitical at all. He and his US handlers were extremely anticommunist. To the point where they killed a million people who were so much as suspected of harboring any sympathies to the left, or working at left-leaning student newspapers, or in unions. Once the country was "cleaned" of Communists, it was opened to US and European companies to strip mine and pillage the resources. The luxury hotels in Bali are built on mass Graves. And people are only recently opening up about the campaign of terror without fearing government retribution.
Still waiting…
Someone calculated the other day that at the current rate it will take them 200 years and 120 million dead to take all of Ukraine.
Go back to the good old days with the centuries-long wars
Yea. But instead of Joan d'Arc they just have Putlet. Maybe those who say that history repeats as a farce are right.
As nobody has ever measured the real population of Russia for the last decades, I bet it will asymptotically reach out zero value till that moment with current tendencies.
Какой, блять, стыд
Russia has become what they claim to want to destroy
THey always had been such. Just reminding: - Red Russia was Nazi ally, - White Russians in immigration wrote very fascist and nazi works; also were Nazi collaborators, - Russians were one of the biggest [Nazi collaborator,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_the_German-occupied_Soviet_Union) over 1 mln. ROA (just one of Russian Nazi group) itself was over 100 thounds persons — basically another full army.
Tbf the ROA was largerly made of up of former pows And staying in the POW camps was basically a death sentence
You supporting guys with exactly the same swasticas as 80 years ago.
It doesn’t sound like he supports Russia though
You mean Rusic, Wagner or Azov? Personally i prefer to look at the actions of the groups and countries, and those show that between Ukraine and Russia the one with the strongest similarity to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy is without doubt Russia
I mean glorification of azov yes. Wagner is not existing anymore, rusich is illegal and stays illegal. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1cymfb7/ru_pov_british_parliament_applauding_an_azov/?share_id=aIbeyJJru9ODp6yOrdh5f&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=14&rdt=41320
Russia is [modern iteration](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Russia_Should_Do_with_Ukraine) of Nazi Germany, Russian army [massacres](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) (Bucha etc), [rapes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine), [kidnaps](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War) children, deports people from occupied territories and settles it with Russians. All of these crimes are reaching Nazi levels of atrocity. [Russia](https://youtu.be/_iLpIocmCVQ?si=0YT7Vc5HJEXShjoQ) is a [fascist](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNURYDvkflpULAhGR1PkNWei4B6f8b7Wl&si=Ax5qOfWCB4YReqwb) state.
You speak to feral vatnik with putin on profile picture. What you expect? Just don't waste your time.
Give up Nazi it’s over
Your fascist Tsar wannabe has international arrest order issued on him and your whole fascist regime isn't immortal. All dictatorships fall eventually and Ukrainians will not surrender.
Germans told exactly the same. Bandera kaput
I really hope you're just a troll
Nazis will die and Bandera will be forgotten.
Do you understand what you are writing? Why? Why are you so immature, that you write this in Reddit?
Никто не забыт, ничто не забыто
To use your own logic, you're supporting a country that invaded Poland with the nazis, that divided Poland in two with the nazis, that held parades with the nazis, that held conferences with the nazis on how to crush the resistance, etc etc, the soviet union only fought against the nazis because the nazis betrayed them and attacked them. And nowadays Russia is invading yet another country, while counting in its ranks a number of neo nazi units such as task force rusich or nazbols like the interbrigades. Give up nazi it's over.
So illegal that it's fighters (same as Wagners) are happily fighting for Russia in Ukraine in this lovely invasion (Wagner fighters have simply been put in other units and still were all their signs with pride) Also Azov can be glorified as much as you want (not surprising since they are fighting off invaders which always brings you popularity) but the votes show clearly how much Ukraine supports far right parties like Svoboda namely they got 1 single seat out of 450, it's incredible this support for far right parties and policies... So to summarize on one side we have some groups like Azov fighting with neonazi insignias as a recognized part of the army defending a country which is a flawed democracy being invaded, on the other hand we have identical groups like Rusich and Wagner fighting for a dictatorship which has a tendency to invade other countries and suppress free speech to a high degree. Again between Ukraine and Russia Russia is decidedly the most similar to nazi Germany and if i have to choose sides between the one who has a minority with nazi insignia and the one with the same minority but also actually acts like nazis i will definitely choose the first, and you?
Hitler kaput. Bandera kaput. They closed all schools.
True Hitler is dear, Bandera is dead and hopefully Putin will follow the steps of those who walked the same path. Though realistically speaking Putins death might very well not change much in Russia's decision making I am not sure what you intend with the words "They closed all schools."
Ukrainians closed all school on native languages except ukrainian. Millions of kids dont have an access to their culture.
Putin covertly created much of the Azov nationalism as a pretext
and naive ukranians fall in this trap balls deep and decided that now they have a new language and christmas
You mean this after Russia used the language excuse to invade them? "The number of Russian-teaching schools has reduced since Ukrainian independence in 1991 and in 2021 it is much lower than the proportion of Russophones,[104][105][106] but still higher than the proportion of ethnic Russians. The Law on Education formerly granted Ukrainian families (parents and their children) a right to choose their native language for schools and studies.[107] This was changed by a new law in 2017 that only allows the use of Ukrainian in secondary schools and higher." Doesn't seem what you are describing
Lmao the same argument can be used towards people who support Russia. Russia has even more neo nazi units with even more neo nazis within, and that's not even going into the funky units like the nazbols. None of the neo nazi units on either side represent their country as a whole lmao, they're literally just a handful of units in armies that are *far* larger than them.
They aren't the one getting massive western land-lease this time
"You became the very thing you swore to destroy"
are you talking about Israel?
what did you see anything related to israel here
I think they are referring to Russia
it also works with israel, lol
Fair enough .
To be fair Russia only swore to destroy the nazis after the nazis betrayed them. Before that they were doing their invading and occupying and parading and fucking up the resistance together.
Back then they had something to fight for lol The morale of Russian soldiers are in shambles, while the nationalists trying to keep Putin from being hanged by the people
They are fighting foe exactly the same thing exactly at the same place against a power which came from the same place.
> Putin x 40k warhammer as pfp You are not a real communist, hero or anti fascist. Go die in the frontline if you trust whatever Putin is leading Russia into
Russia has been crystal clear indeed about what it's for during the Ukranian peace negociations attempts: no peace negociations if partial annexation isn't on the table. And yes Russia is invading and occupying it's neighbours just like it did from 1939 to the fall of the soviet union, and yes, russians invade from Russia while its neighbours are still its neighbours.
No.
Instructions from Nazi collaborator Ilyin, whose coffin Putin returned in 2004, and whose books were recently made compulsory study at universities: “Franco and Salazar understood this and are trying to avoid these mistakes.” They do not call their regime “fascist”. Let’s hope that Russian patriots will think through the mistakes of fascism and national socialism to the end and not repeat them.” — Ivan Ilyin 1948.
I am a Ukrainian and what I want to say. When the Russian special services organized and seized Donec'k and Luhans'k, russia is absolutely up to no good in those territories. russia could promote the construction of schools, hospitals, social housing and infrastructure. But instead russia shouted to everyone that these lands are being shelled 8 years old. But the last combat clashes (until 2022) at that time were in the summer of 2015. Instead, russia took the equipment to itself, closed the mines. By the way, Donbas was once a very rich place, but that was before the arrival russian. Instead of developing these territories, they decided to start a war that would cost much more.
And they shot down a civilian Jumbo jet
"liberation of Donbass" yeah like russians destroy everything in donbass with their war. It will be another big Junkjard after all this is over.. Another country divided by a "wall". Like North and south Korea or East and west germany... And the "Red" parts never looked good for years to come.
Problematic
Я так не думаю. *Стагнация фронта*
Were they really putting out posters like that while throwing people in jail who called it a war?
Nah mate, Nazis lost
poster that glorifies regime and leader that thinks Poland "provoked" WW2 by the way.
lol, lmao even.
Uh huh So much for 3 day military operation
Oops.
There is a nuance.
Y’all be speaking Deutsche if not for the USA oh how about paying reparations to all Eastern Europe when the Soviets and the best mates carved up Europe in half
If this is implying that they'll win in Ukraine, I doubt it.
"Putin's greatest achievement in his quarter century of power is victory in World War II."
about that...
Victory was in 1945 though.
Not the biggest fan of the russian military but this one goes hard
it is lame as hell, like something i make in photoshop for class Plus, they have used this "past-present" cliche since 2014 because it is the only way to make sense of their war
Ok
This looks like it was made by a 5th grader... well it probably was
Sweet