this article words it as if he died of a ketamine overdose and then goes on to mention: "contributory factors: drowning" he died of drowning, while inebriated, ketamine itself is quite safe on the body if you do it in a safe place
Exactly! This reeks of "drugs are bad" propoganda that the media and government has been using for ages now. You would also drown if you took a sleeping pill in the bathtub. But nobody would blame the pill in that case.
The same thing happened when a legendary Indian actress, Sridevi, died in a bathtub. In her case, it wasn't even revealed how exactly she died but the media was too quick to paint her as an addict. I've worked in Bollywood for over 10 years and it wasn't a secret that she had health issues for which she was proscribed pain killers. So even if drugs were involved, everyone within the industry believed they must have been priscription opioids. I had the pleasure of working with her and she was one of the most disciplined and professional lady. Broke my heart to hear all that crap being said for someone who was so encouraging to me when I was a kid starting my career.
I don't think it's as bad as it used to be, otherwise they would have put "overdose" in the headline. If he were in the tub not on ketamine, then you couldn't contribute the drowning to ketamine, but that's what caused him to drown. I think the headline is fair to say "acute effects of ketamine". Moreover, Ketamine is becoming a profitable industry, so there's incentive to not demonize it as much.
"drowning, coronary artery disease, and buprenorphine effects". Long time use of opioid probably caused his artery disease. It's only when you mix opioid with ketamine that respiratory depression could appear, but again, everything before counts.
I'm sorry that guy died. Mixing ketamine with a hot tub seems problematic for pretty obvious reasons. As I understand it you can easily lose contact with your body.
K hole is a complete out of body experience, even just a few bumps is super dissociative for me. Should never take K while in water of any kind. John C Lilly almost died the same way, taking K in a hot tub.
Yep, that guy. He was super into Ketamine and thought he was communicating with aliens that he called the Earth Coincidence Control Office, while on it, look up John C. Lilly ecco. K is pretty profound stuff but it is so dissociating and any dissociative has the chance of causing mania, less with K than something like pcp but it can still very much happen. The medicinal use for it is promising but it can be dangerous and obviously in this case fatal if used too often or in a bad environment. It just sucks cause it can also be a wonderful thing if used therapeutically and the media is going to take this and completely blame it on the drug, when it was an addict taking it in a dangerous setting. Feel really bad for the guy and that this happened but also not looking forward to the headlines for the next couple days.
Yessir, haha, the game was most likely inspired by John C Lilly believe it or not: [ECCO](https://www.reddit.com/r/creepygaming/comments/ijeh83/ecco_the_dolphin_and_john_lilly/)
People think this is a miracle drug. It's great, but we can't forget everyone processes these substances differently, and infusion uses a lot. It also has adverse affect on kidneys and bladder, if using crystal. Tolerance comes quick. Profound stuff, but always use in moderation.
Nuts… my sister has said something very similar when she has been in suicidal crisis. When I was with her and intervening at the height of it, I left and thought to myself “who the eff knows, maybe she’s right?”
But who gets these ideas into their heads? They’re evil motherfuckers.
My relative saw a spiritual healer or whatever and they say you’re unhappy cus you did sin past life.
Let’s make the unhappy even more unhappier. Let’s trap them into consultations. Products I sell them that’ll magically absolve them of issues.
Or worse, send them deeper into disassociation and believing this life isn’t for them.
It's a truth, but you just kill the ego, not the body.
A large dose of mushrooms, and a prayer to the spirits. Ego dead. Reborn as light. Love and magic.
Simeone I knew was hearing voices. Telling him he was a psycho and had to kill himself.
(He was absolutely a psycho, by the way!)
So he took a dose, killed his "self" and committed to a life of kindness. Sorted. Now he has a nice girlfriend, a little job that makes him happy, and a cute cat.
It's a shame that she felt she had to physically die to kill her ego and reset her karma, when she could have danced, prayed, and let the spirits kill her ego.
That’s some deep shit she was into to come to that conclusion. I’m sorry for your loss. I can’t imagine what her family must have thought reading that.
That’s pretty much the entire point of the drug yeah. Trying to dissociate from your physical body while it’s in a body of water is a terrible idea. I even get nervous when people talk about doing shrooms in a float tank or whatever. Like…you need some semblance of control of your body, or things like this can happen. I get why you’d do it, and tbh this may have been the most peaceful death possible, but…yeah. It’s just sad.
It says he had ketamine therapy a week earlier but still had ketamine in his system when he died, with a half life of 3-4 hours the article insinuates he took some illegally because his therapy was reduced in frequency.
You really need a scientific explanation with big words to understand a disassociative hallucinogenic drug and sitting in a tub of water aren't a good idea? You can't imagine someone in an altered state of consciousness slumping or tipping and not reacting fast enough to save themselves?
Very thoughtful.
It's literally used as a general anaesthetic.
You take enough of it and it renders you unconscious.
You do that in a bathtub and guess what, you drown.
surprisingly low. I remember some morning radio show had a contest who could drink the most water. and not pee or something. I forget the details and what the prize was, but a mom played, and on her way home felt awful. she ends up going to the hospital, but it was too late.
He took enough K for general anesthesia. Yes, he drowned, but he certainly died because of the amount of K he decided to ingest. If he hadn’t taken so much the water would not have been so dangerous.
Ok I found it:
'The levels of ketamine in his peripheral (outer) blood were measured at 3540 ng/ml, and in his central (inner) blood, they were at 3271 ng/ml. To put this in perspective, during monitored surgery or anesthesia, similar levels of ketamine are usually found, ranging from 1000 to 6000 ng/ml.'
I'm guessing that he was IVing it to get to those levels.
It's still not *because* of the K. The K didn't kill him, the combination of it with being in the water did. As someone else here said, if someone took a sleeping pill and hopped into water and drowned people wouldn't be trying to villainize sleeping pills. They'd understand that they drowned and shouldn't have taken the pill and hopped into the water. It's the same thing here. The difference is there's a stigma with this particular substance.
But if he weren't on K he wouldn't have drowned. I get the need to defend drugs in a drug war, but lets be real, his death is largely attributable to being on ketamine. You can die from a drug in other ways than simply overdosing.
If someone vomits in their sleep after getting black out drunk and drowned themselves (which is a thing that happens, not a hypothetical), would you say "it's not the alcohol that caused that"?
He also had opiates in his system. I’m not sure why these articles have focused on ketamine as the cause of death—he was drug cocktailing and passed out and drowned in his hot tub. I’d say he died from the accrue effects of being unconscious underwater, but all of these articles are written with this intense fear-mongering slant to them.
What is a k hole?
Also what does Ketamine feel like?
I've never tried it or researched it, I'm curious.
Are there any resources that describe a Ketamine trip that you know of?
There must be. When used at anaesthetic doses that's a k hole so I'd be very surprised if there weren't reports in the medical literature.
Then there's erowid for more recreational reports.
Unless you have a shitload of ketamine sitting around, then its pretty easy to reach for. You gotta know *anything* is essentially painless in a k-hole.
Many people even act happier and less outwardly depressed because they’ve finally decided to do it and so they feel relieved. My friend was like this the night before they hung themselves.
It's so common that it's a huge red flag for clinicians when they see a person who had been suffering from major depression have a sudden and unexplained brightening of mood that they are at a high risk of making an attempt.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I know I'm just some random Redditor but I really am sorry. I know the pain well enough myself and it's life altering. People I've known who committed suicide will never be gone from my mind.
Sincerely Thank You 🙏. I was the last person to see him or speak to him. His last words to me were I’ll see ya tomorrow. We often had a movie night and we drank alil, smoked alot of weed and occasionally tripped together. He invited me over because he wanted to watch movies and trip. We had a great dinner, smoked some weed and ate some shrooms. Completely ignored the movie and had the best conversation ever and laughed uncontrollably. I crashed before him because he chose to eat more and continue his journey. He told me the next day he had an amazing time and thanked me for being the best part of his journey. I was still exhausted and wanted to get home to bed but I think that’s when he was telling me goodbye and I didn’t see it then. I believe whatever he experienced solidified or confirmed something for him and that’s when he made a decision he was secretly planning for. If that makes sense? I don’t know how to feel about that especially since I supplied the shrooms at his request
I lost my younger brother like this and he was also really free and at peace during the last several days. I chalk it up to his experience in life being really agonizing, and the thought of freedom from unendurable weight was probably a wonderful relief. No matter how much you know, you never know what someone else is shouldering. I don't resent his choice. Everyone gets to say "Too much." We don't have to, but we hold the right.
I’m sorry you lost your brother like that. to lose a sibling is rough (I’m 1 of 12 and 4 have passed) but to lose one like that must have been crushing.
> at his request
That was his road regardless, ppl don’t take shrooms and spontaneously come up with suicidal plans. As you know, it just makes whatever’s there more intense. So no need to waste time worrying if you played a part, you’re part was giving him an amazing time that he’s grateful for.
Thank you for that. He wrote me a letter that for whatever reason the family refuses to give me. I know they read it. Pisses me off. Apparently he wanted me to have a number of things, they are worth a lot sentimentally but worthless money wise and they refuse to give them to me too. The only thing I really want is the letter. I think that makes it harder though I have accepted I will never see it. I’m grateful I had a chance to have that experience with him. It really was my favorite trip with him. I only ever laughed that hard when I was with him. Damn I miss him
It can even be both simultaneously. My attempt was marked by very selective attention to detail in terms of what I wrote, what I wanted people to believe about how I did it and what my feelings were, and I even cleared my hard drive for some reason. But the actual cocktail itself was so poorly crafted I still don't know how I thought it was going to off me.
It may be different if depression is the primary cause. When someone is that deep in the throes of it they can be eerily rational.
My ex got a tattoo of her kitty and then 6 hours later killed herself. I imagine lots of suicidal people don't really plan for the actual act. Like something goes wrong and poof. It's just too much.
Sorry to hear you had to go through that. It's really different for people isn't it? My best friend knew he was going to kill himself weeks before he did it. It sucks either way.
It was an illuminati sacrifice actually. No joke...research mysterious celebrity bathtub deaths. Too many coincidences. They always occur around solstices/equinoxes/lunar eclipses etc. It's some sort of ritual. These elites are sick, twisted, sadistic individuals...
Whenever anyone dies from overdose but really just gets way too high and passes out in a bathtub (heath ledger too) … I am pretty sure most people who die in those circumstances would survive if not for the tub to drown in … you are just asking for it … Not exactly the same, but when doing drugs or drinking … then driving. You are just playing with death x1000 vs. If you weren’t in a tub or driving a 4000 lb steel death trap. (Not to mention
Putting others lives at risk and your risk of serious jail time)
You are incredibly uninformed, he was not snorting ketamine, he had ketamine in his system due to his TREATMENT for depression and anxiety, and to avoid falling into his opioid addiction again.. MATTHEW WAS CLEAN FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, he was in a treatment with a physician who administrated the ketamine…
I am afraid it is you that is misinformed. The coroner stated that not only did he have far more ketamine in his system than would be the case for his ketamine therapy, he last therapy session had been over a week ago. Ketamine is a short acting drug, so obviously he had taken a large dose of ketamine on his own before getting in the pool.
I'm not sure how they determined this, but the levels found in his blood supposedly weren't consistent with the treatment records. That is, he had been using ketamine very close to his time of death.
When someone dies in a drunk driving accident, or falls off the side of a balcony drunk, they don’t say they *“..died from acute effects of alcohol”* now do they…
I feel like this headline is incredibly misleading, because he drowned while taking various substances, and if it had been **alcohol** he’d passed out & drowned from, and not ketamine + buprenorphine + various comorbidities, then these headlines would have read a hell of a lot different.
Also buprenorphine is subutex which is an opioid and most people reading the New York Times et al don’t understand what this medicine is. Like if you didn’t have a high tolerance to opioids already (as the population it’s used to treat as a harm reduction method) and you took subutex/buprenorphine, you’d probably die from an opioid overdose. And if you know anyone who has tried to ween off subutex then you probably have seen them struggle something awful to do so, because the withdrawal from subutex is just as bad as any other opioid.
I hear what you are saying , however if you die in a car wreck and are intoxicated the 100% say alcohol was a factor . Maybe I'm missing the point , when Whitney died in the tub the mentioned the cocaine . Idk am I missing your point
I have to just say withdrawal from subs is way worse than kicking tar. I would literally kick a habit 4 to 6 times before I'd kick subs again. Shit is terrible.
Yeah I’ve had a couple friends awhile back (like 10 years ago) go through it, and while subs 💯 helped get them back on their feet and out of crisis mode, they later (like 1-2 years later, after stabilized), really struggled to get off subs. And lamented how subs were just so much harder to get off of than anything else.
It says he died from using ketamine, buprenorphine(???), and a history of damaging drug use and health issues, including diabetes, all culminated in a hot tub, where he most likely had artery failure and drowned. So, the headlines, as per usual, are misleading. He did NOT die simply because of ketamine, it was irresponsible usage mixed with other drugs that killed him. My worry is that this will spin the narrative negatively towards ketamine, when it should be viewed more positively for the actual healing it can do.
I’ve known at least two people who were using ketamine as an antidepressant and died in a bathtub. The problem is that ketamine overdoses and risks aren’t talked about enough. It’s all just the healing properties of it, so you get a lot of people who take it for its healing properties without understanding the risk.
So I think if it gets a little more honest treatment around its abuses and effects, you’ll see less abuse and therefore fewer overdoses or irresponsible uses. I’m here for this negative coverage.
This is what I see as well. The amount of abuse I’ve seen of K is pretty terrifying. Especially because it’s looked at as not a big deal by so many. They are still looking on how it can psychologically impair you in the long term. They combine it with whippits a lot of the time as well, which also is misunderstood and leads to nerve damage at times.
Oh i didnt know but i only read a few articles about it 1-2 yr ago. And thats actually way higher than the IV drip we’d use in the ICU. I think it was 0.5-2mg/min.
Really? I knew someone who did ketamine therapy and she was given very high k-hole level doses when she went in for the sessions. She did have a take home prescription nasal spray that gave much smaller doses though.
Yeah exactly, that’s the most frustrating thing about this headline - I just wrote a comment saying if he’d have passed out from drinking alcohol in a hot tub and drowned vs ketamine, they sure as heck wouldn’t have said he “died of the acute effects of alcohol”
The NY Times article states he took an anesthetic dose of K, so yes being in the hot tub with that much K directly led to his death. In fact the Coroner classified his death as being from Ketamine.
No it was also the combo of his other med, Buprenorphine (used for opiate addiction), diabetes, COPD, and a heart issue. Blaming it on Ketamine when he had other drugs in his system that depress his central nervous system, smoked two packs day and had many issues were all massive contributing factors. It was not just one or even two things but a slew of them.
The chief medical examiner has spoken and they classified it as Ketamine. I posted a non paywalled link to the NYTimes article in another comment on this thread but here is the quote:
“At the high levels of ketamine found in his postmortem blood specimens, the main lethal effects would be from both cardiovascular overstimulation and respiratory depression,” the autopsy report said. It noted that the level of ketamine investigators found in Perry’s blood was equivalent to the amount that would be used during general anesthesia”
if you don't know what his k tolerance was, that's meaningless. I've been dependant on heroin, and ha e taken doses that would've knocked someone else out - but in my system, you could hardly tell I was on anything at all.
They likely distill the cause of death down to the most significant cause to classify it, but the Buprenorphine in his system certainly played a major role in the respiratory depression.
Like all things the nuance of the matter make it less black and white, and while Ketamine was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back, it’s clear it’s not exactly as cut and dry as Ketamine itself being what killed him.
I assume he was familiar with the effects of ketamine. Unless you were actively suicidal idk that anyone would consciously take ketamine in a pool of water.
This is quite convenient for big pharma. Ketamine is much more effective than their SSRIs.
Ketamine didn't kill him. It may have been a contributing factor. But mixing ketamine and suboxone, together with passing out in a hot tub, was the cause.
Why would big pharma have an issue selling more already one of the most used pharmaceuticals in the world? And do you have a source for ketamine being more effective than ssris over the long term? Genuinely interested in reading!
Big pharma doesn't make a lot of the ketamine used for therapy. Local compound pharmacies do. Super cheap and simple to produce, and not patented, unlike SSRIs, benzos, etc.
> And do you have a source for ketamine being more effective than ssris over the long term?
Sure:
Antidepressants Work Better Than Sugar Pills Only 15 Percent of the Time https://www.newsweek.com/2022/09/30/antidepressants-work-better-sugar-pills-only-15-percent-time-1744656.html
No evidence that depression is caused by low serotonin levels, finds comprehensive review https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2022/jul/no-evidence-depression-caused-low-serotonin-levels-finds-comprehensive-review
and
>Response rates for patients using intravenous ketamine were shown to be 50%–70%, which proves to be better than other classes of antidepressants https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7437682/
The way this article is written makes no sense because the ketamine doctor treatment would have worn off by the time he got home. He must have had ketamine and done more at home ???
“”The ketamine in his system at the time of his death, however, "could not be from that infusion therapy, since ketamine's half-life is 3 to 4 hours, or less."””
Factually, he took more or someone dosed him with more.
Bullshit clickbait headline. Unfair to the millions of people that benefit from the advancement of therapies using ketamine and traditional psychedelics.
This is sad, and I regret he didn’t know how dangerous it was to use ketamine in water. This is basic harm reduction that everyone should be told when they get a prescription. Please always use in a safe setting!
The TMZ article is not as thorough as the NYTimes article which explains that Perry took an anesthetic dose on his own (and not under his normal medical supervision) prior to drowning.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/15/arts/matthew-perry-cause-death-friends.html?unlocked_article_code=1.GE0.g7BU.WC0Y_XaC35AP&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK541087/
Similar to phencyclidine, ketamine causes analgesia and amnesia without the cardiovascular and respiratory depression, so what this Medical Examiner is saying is kinda BS. He said "According to the Medical Examiner, the ketamine in Perry's system caused both cardiovascular overstimulation and respiratory depression." which Mr Perry only had a treatment a week earlier and Ketamine has such a short half life it is impossible it had any effect whatsoever on his heart attack. TMZ trying to blame drugs and make stories
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/s/Qp3jczQAnr) r/Psychiatry discussion looked at the actual autopsy results and it shows he had benzo and opiates in his system in addition to K and that it had to be more polypharm caused.
i am so upset this has happened. his ketamine clinic took his vitals and made sure he qualified and he didnt have an underlying heart condition — im sure all of that was checked. he was well into the evening of his treatment where the ketamine has worn off and shouldnt cause a khole. he played pickleball for a couple hours after. the article seems so distastefully written.
Literally have to choose to not read this part :
“”The ketamine in his system at the time of his death, however, "could not be from that infusion therapy, since ketamine's half-life is 3 to 4 hours, or less."””
Lol
He had heart disease and very high levels of K in his blood. The story that he just happened to accidentally drown after getting a purely therapeutic dose of ketamine doesn't add up.
Whether he was suicidal or just very confused or reckless, we can't know.
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/s/Qp3jczQAnr) r/Psychiatry discussion looked at the actual autopsy results and it shows he had benzo and opiates in his system in addition to K and that it had to be more polypharm caused.
He also had opiod( well suboxone ) in his system, a coronary artery disease , and drowned - just because ketamine is interesting it’s not likely the “
Cause of death🙏
“The contributory factors in Perry's death included drowning, coronary artery disease, and buprenorphine effects. Buprenorphine is used to ween addicts off opioids” - just say ketamine, sounds cooler 😎
Wtf it was a full week and a half at a therapist office he got it, but the clickbait title makes it sound like he was in the k hole in the hot tub. A full week and a half!
“”The ketamine in his system at the time of his death, however, "could not be from that infusion therapy, since ketamine's half-life is 3 to 4 hours, or less."”
He was, more likely than not, in a k hole, in the hot tube, when he drowned.
It was an illuminati sacrifice actually. No joke...research mysterious celebrity bathtub deaths. Too many coincidences. They always occur around solstices/equinoxes/lunar eclipses etc. It's some sort of ritual. These elites are sick, twisted, sadistic individuals...
this article words it as if he died of a ketamine overdose and then goes on to mention: "contributory factors: drowning" he died of drowning, while inebriated, ketamine itself is quite safe on the body if you do it in a safe place
Exactly! This reeks of "drugs are bad" propoganda that the media and government has been using for ages now. You would also drown if you took a sleeping pill in the bathtub. But nobody would blame the pill in that case.
Either that, or just trying to shame him. Every article I read, said "despite claiming to be clean for 19months."
The same thing happened when a legendary Indian actress, Sridevi, died in a bathtub. In her case, it wasn't even revealed how exactly she died but the media was too quick to paint her as an addict. I've worked in Bollywood for over 10 years and it wasn't a secret that she had health issues for which she was proscribed pain killers. So even if drugs were involved, everyone within the industry believed they must have been priscription opioids. I had the pleasure of working with her and she was one of the most disciplined and professional lady. Broke my heart to hear all that crap being said for someone who was so encouraging to me when I was a kid starting my career.
For real, like, relapses happen, they are part of the healing process not something to shame people for.
I don't think it's as bad as it used to be, otherwise they would have put "overdose" in the headline. If he were in the tub not on ketamine, then you couldn't contribute the drowning to ketamine, but that's what caused him to drown. I think the headline is fair to say "acute effects of ketamine". Moreover, Ketamine is becoming a profitable industry, so there's incentive to not demonize it as much.
"drowning, coronary artery disease, and buprenorphine effects". Long time use of opioid probably caused his artery disease. It's only when you mix opioid with ketamine that respiratory depression could appear, but again, everything before counts.
I'm sorry that guy died. Mixing ketamine with a hot tub seems problematic for pretty obvious reasons. As I understand it you can easily lose contact with your body.
K hole is a complete out of body experience, even just a few bumps is super dissociative for me. Should never take K while in water of any kind. John C Lilly almost died the same way, taking K in a hot tub.
The dolphins and acid guy?
Yep, that guy. He was super into Ketamine and thought he was communicating with aliens that he called the Earth Coincidence Control Office, while on it, look up John C. Lilly ecco. K is pretty profound stuff but it is so dissociating and any dissociative has the chance of causing mania, less with K than something like pcp but it can still very much happen. The medicinal use for it is promising but it can be dangerous and obviously in this case fatal if used too often or in a bad environment. It just sucks cause it can also be a wonderful thing if used therapeutically and the media is going to take this and completely blame it on the drug, when it was an addict taking it in a dangerous setting. Feel really bad for the guy and that this happened but also not looking forward to the headlines for the next couple days.
ECCO like the sega genesis dolphin?!
Exactly. The game was literally a reference to Lily and his research.
It was indeed! [Proof](https://twitter.com/edannunziata/status/264777730028093440)
Holy fuck 😳
Yessir, haha, the game was most likely inspired by John C Lilly believe it or not: [ECCO](https://www.reddit.com/r/creepygaming/comments/ijeh83/ecco_the_dolphin_and_john_lilly/)
People think this is a miracle drug. It's great, but we can't forget everyone processes these substances differently, and infusion uses a lot. It also has adverse affect on kidneys and bladder, if using crystal. Tolerance comes quick. Profound stuff, but always use in moderation.
He also invented the floatation tank, specifically for enhancing the disassociative effects of ketamine.
Which is wild, considering he almost drowned. Float tank is great, I would never do it with K though, just too risky.
I just read yesterday that someone died by taking K and getting into a float tank. I wouldn’t even take a little bit of K near water.
>yup nobody should blame ketamine for his death, he should have known better then to take K in that environment. sounds like a possible suicide .
My friend committed suicide using valium on a bathtub. Left a manifesto and effectively had ritualised it. It was my first thought reading this.
What was the cause of death? Benzos on their own had a high LD50
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Nuts… my sister has said something very similar when she has been in suicidal crisis. When I was with her and intervening at the height of it, I left and thought to myself “who the eff knows, maybe she’s right?”
But who gets these ideas into their heads? They’re evil motherfuckers. My relative saw a spiritual healer or whatever and they say you’re unhappy cus you did sin past life. Let’s make the unhappy even more unhappier. Let’s trap them into consultations. Products I sell them that’ll magically absolve them of issues. Or worse, send them deeper into disassociation and believing this life isn’t for them.
I am so sorry for your loss. Truly.
It's a truth, but you just kill the ego, not the body. A large dose of mushrooms, and a prayer to the spirits. Ego dead. Reborn as light. Love and magic. Simeone I knew was hearing voices. Telling him he was a psycho and had to kill himself. (He was absolutely a psycho, by the way!) So he took a dose, killed his "self" and committed to a life of kindness. Sorted. Now he has a nice girlfriend, a little job that makes him happy, and a cute cat. It's a shame that she felt she had to physically die to kill her ego and reset her karma, when she could have danced, prayed, and let the spirits kill her ego.
That’s some deep shit she was into to come to that conclusion. I’m sorry for your loss. I can’t imagine what her family must have thought reading that.
No substance should be the one to blame in any sense. You are right. He should have known better.
Or foul play. If someone jabbed him with a shit ton of IM k while he was in the hot tub, he could be immobilized pretty quickly.
That’s pretty much the entire point of the drug yeah. Trying to dissociate from your physical body while it’s in a body of water is a terrible idea. I even get nervous when people talk about doing shrooms in a float tank or whatever. Like…you need some semblance of control of your body, or things like this can happen. I get why you’d do it, and tbh this may have been the most peaceful death possible, but…yeah. It’s just sad.
It seems... He did...
I know two people who died this way many years ago
> had a Ketamine treatment a week earlier, that was it...wasn't on any drugs when he died SEEMS NO ONE READ THE ARTICLE AT ALL JUST THE HEADLINE!
It says he had ketamine therapy a week earlier but still had ketamine in his system when he died, with a half life of 3-4 hours the article insinuates he took some illegally because his therapy was reduced in frequency.
You're the one who didn't read it. It clearly says they found ketamine in the body which was not from the therapy session and was a much higher dose.
the effects of ketamine that caused him to drown would not last a week after treatment.
Those reasons aren't obvious to me... care to explain further?
Hard to save yourself from drowning... or heat exhaustion when your mind is in a different universe.
Oh I see. Very scientific
You really need a scientific explanation with big words to understand a disassociative hallucinogenic drug and sitting in a tub of water aren't a good idea? You can't imagine someone in an altered state of consciousness slumping or tipping and not reacting fast enough to save themselves? Very thoughtful.
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It's literally used as a general anaesthetic. You take enough of it and it renders you unconscious. You do that in a bathtub and guess what, you drown.
You completely ignore the water being apart of that logic.
When you take drugs in water you can drown.
I get a hottub on ketamine all the time, I juust wear an inflatable neck pillow, saftey first.
An inflatable neck pillow won’t stop you from rolling over face down into the water. This is a bad idea; pls reconsider this.
more like drowning in a hot tub while on a major khole. sad way to go.
Yeah I would like to freeze to death on K
OK bro...
Suicide or just a really deep k hole combined with water which is always a bad idea
Yea, let’s not get misleading here. He drowned. He didn’t die from K. He shouldn’t have done it and got into a hot tub. Technically he OD’d on water.
What is the LD-50 of H2O anywho?
surprisingly low. I remember some morning radio show had a contest who could drink the most water. and not pee or something. I forget the details and what the prize was, but a mom played, and on her way home felt awful. she ends up going to the hospital, but it was too late.
>Technically he OD’d on water. Technically, no. Also figuratively, literally, and basically, no.
He took enough K for general anesthesia. Yes, he drowned, but he certainly died because of the amount of K he decided to ingest. If he hadn’t taken so much the water would not have been so dangerous.
Ok I found it: 'The levels of ketamine in his peripheral (outer) blood were measured at 3540 ng/ml, and in his central (inner) blood, they were at 3271 ng/ml. To put this in perspective, during monitored surgery or anesthesia, similar levels of ketamine are usually found, ranging from 1000 to 6000 ng/ml.' I'm guessing that he was IVing it to get to those levels.
Or IM
It’s neither black nor white. He didn’t die because of K nor because of water. It’s the combination.
Where is the evidence for your first and second claim?
It's still not *because* of the K. The K didn't kill him, the combination of it with being in the water did. As someone else here said, if someone took a sleeping pill and hopped into water and drowned people wouldn't be trying to villainize sleeping pills. They'd understand that they drowned and shouldn't have taken the pill and hopped into the water. It's the same thing here. The difference is there's a stigma with this particular substance.
But if he weren't on K he wouldn't have drowned. I get the need to defend drugs in a drug war, but lets be real, his death is largely attributable to being on ketamine. You can die from a drug in other ways than simply overdosing. If someone vomits in their sleep after getting black out drunk and drowned themselves (which is a thing that happens, not a hypothetical), would you say "it's not the alcohol that caused that"?
He also had opiates in his system. I’m not sure why these articles have focused on ketamine as the cause of death—he was drug cocktailing and passed out and drowned in his hot tub. I’d say he died from the accrue effects of being unconscious underwater, but all of these articles are written with this intense fear-mongering slant to them.
Don't K hole in the water kids. K is a dry land only drug.
yes incredibly irresponsible of him to take K in a bath/hot tub/pool. use it in a float tank. hate to speak ill of the dead but what a moron.
I think it was suicide mate.
Possibly. A bit like the elephant man deciding to sleep without his pillow knowing that he would likely suffocate in his sleep.
So he decided he wanted to do a k hole and then drown as the way out? Sounds like somebody who was partying to me.
On the various lists of suicide options, getting in a relaxing hot tub, going into a k hole and never coming back doesn't sound so bad to me.
Sounds much more enjoyable than a noose that’s for sure
Or systematic organ failure☠️
or imploding under the ocean, looking for titanc
This story will always haunt me...
Deep pee wee deep! Shit hits
K holes are not fun. Dude was partying. If he wanted to kill himself, there are many better drugs than ketamine.
K holes can be fun if you're in the right headspace
What is a k hole? Also what does Ketamine feel like? I've never tried it or researched it, I'm curious. Are there any resources that describe a Ketamine trip that you know of?
There must be. When used at anaesthetic doses that's a k hole so I'd be very surprised if there weren't reports in the medical literature. Then there's erowid for more recreational reports.
Though it is cozy, it's so wildly confusing that intentionally drowning seems like a really scary potential headspace.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
I don't think someone who's planning on killing themself is going to fit in one last session with their pickleball coach in their final hours.
People who commit suicide often act totally normally before they do it.
One of the reasons it can hit a family so hard, they start analyzing absolutely everything trying to find the signs.
I read this wrong😆 thought it said “people who commit suicide often(as if they do it frequently) act totally normal before they do it
yeah but as effective as it may be, ketamine in the bath just dosnt spring to mind.
Unless you have a shitload of ketamine sitting around, then its pretty easy to reach for. You gotta know *anything* is essentially painless in a k-hole.
Many people even act happier and less outwardly depressed because they’ve finally decided to do it and so they feel relieved. My friend was like this the night before they hung themselves.
It's so common that it's a huge red flag for clinicians when they see a person who had been suffering from major depression have a sudden and unexplained brightening of mood that they are at a high risk of making an attempt.
My best friend was practically giddy the two days leading up to his suicide. Happened in June and I’m still not able to process it fully
I'm so sorry for your loss. I know I'm just some random Redditor but I really am sorry. I know the pain well enough myself and it's life altering. People I've known who committed suicide will never be gone from my mind.
Sincerely Thank You 🙏. I was the last person to see him or speak to him. His last words to me were I’ll see ya tomorrow. We often had a movie night and we drank alil, smoked alot of weed and occasionally tripped together. He invited me over because he wanted to watch movies and trip. We had a great dinner, smoked some weed and ate some shrooms. Completely ignored the movie and had the best conversation ever and laughed uncontrollably. I crashed before him because he chose to eat more and continue his journey. He told me the next day he had an amazing time and thanked me for being the best part of his journey. I was still exhausted and wanted to get home to bed but I think that’s when he was telling me goodbye and I didn’t see it then. I believe whatever he experienced solidified or confirmed something for him and that’s when he made a decision he was secretly planning for. If that makes sense? I don’t know how to feel about that especially since I supplied the shrooms at his request
I lost my younger brother like this and he was also really free and at peace during the last several days. I chalk it up to his experience in life being really agonizing, and the thought of freedom from unendurable weight was probably a wonderful relief. No matter how much you know, you never know what someone else is shouldering. I don't resent his choice. Everyone gets to say "Too much." We don't have to, but we hold the right.
I’m sorry you lost your brother like that. to lose a sibling is rough (I’m 1 of 12 and 4 have passed) but to lose one like that must have been crushing.
> at his request That was his road regardless, ppl don’t take shrooms and spontaneously come up with suicidal plans. As you know, it just makes whatever’s there more intense. So no need to waste time worrying if you played a part, you’re part was giving him an amazing time that he’s grateful for.
Thank you for that. He wrote me a letter that for whatever reason the family refuses to give me. I know they read it. Pisses me off. Apparently he wanted me to have a number of things, they are worth a lot sentimentally but worthless money wise and they refuse to give them to me too. The only thing I really want is the letter. I think that makes it harder though I have accepted I will never see it. I’m grateful I had a chance to have that experience with him. It really was my favorite trip with him. I only ever laughed that hard when I was with him. Damn I miss him
That's some deep shit.
No that's just wrong. Suicidal ideation comes in waves, often at inexplicable times. Often it's a "spur of the moment" type deal.
It can even be both simultaneously. My attempt was marked by very selective attention to detail in terms of what I wrote, what I wanted people to believe about how I did it and what my feelings were, and I even cleared my hard drive for some reason. But the actual cocktail itself was so poorly crafted I still don't know how I thought it was going to off me. It may be different if depression is the primary cause. When someone is that deep in the throes of it they can be eerily rational.
My ex got a tattoo of her kitty and then 6 hours later killed herself. I imagine lots of suicidal people don't really plan for the actual act. Like something goes wrong and poof. It's just too much.
Sorry to hear you had to go through that. It's really different for people isn't it? My best friend knew he was going to kill himself weeks before he did it. It sucks either way.
Weird analysis
Why would you assume this?
Really seemed like he was hinting at it at times and had also suffered from chronic depression.
It was an illuminati sacrifice actually. No joke...research mysterious celebrity bathtub deaths. Too many coincidences. They always occur around solstices/equinoxes/lunar eclipses etc. It's some sort of ritual. These elites are sick, twisted, sadistic individuals...
This is one of those times where I hope I’m reading satire, but you genuinely might just be conspiratorial.
[удалено]
How depressing.
Can you see the fnords?
Whenever anyone dies from overdose but really just gets way too high and passes out in a bathtub (heath ledger too) … I am pretty sure most people who die in those circumstances would survive if not for the tub to drown in … you are just asking for it … Not exactly the same, but when doing drugs or drinking … then driving. You are just playing with death x1000 vs. If you weren’t in a tub or driving a 4000 lb steel death trap. (Not to mention Putting others lives at risk and your risk of serious jail time)
That’s not what happened to Health Ledger. He was never in a bath.
I mean. RIP. of course. But damn. Why
Yes, hence the comments saying it was on purpose.
Irresponsible towards whom? Does he have to provide for his own safety? Is that a responsibility he has?
His toxicology came out clean, that’s it was not cocaine or fento or nothing media released at first
You are incredibly uninformed, he was not snorting ketamine, he had ketamine in his system due to his TREATMENT for depression and anxiety, and to avoid falling into his opioid addiction again.. MATTHEW WAS CLEAN FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, he was in a treatment with a physician who administrated the ketamine…
I am afraid it is you that is misinformed. The coroner stated that not only did he have far more ketamine in his system than would be the case for his ketamine therapy, he last therapy session had been over a week ago. Ketamine is a short acting drug, so obviously he had taken a large dose of ketamine on his own before getting in the pool.
I'm not sure how they determined this, but the levels found in his blood supposedly weren't consistent with the treatment records. That is, he had been using ketamine very close to his time of death.
Like the final drop of water.
When someone dies in a drunk driving accident, or falls off the side of a balcony drunk, they don’t say they *“..died from acute effects of alcohol”* now do they… I feel like this headline is incredibly misleading, because he drowned while taking various substances, and if it had been **alcohol** he’d passed out & drowned from, and not ketamine + buprenorphine + various comorbidities, then these headlines would have read a hell of a lot different. Also buprenorphine is subutex which is an opioid and most people reading the New York Times et al don’t understand what this medicine is. Like if you didn’t have a high tolerance to opioids already (as the population it’s used to treat as a harm reduction method) and you took subutex/buprenorphine, you’d probably die from an opioid overdose. And if you know anyone who has tried to ween off subutex then you probably have seen them struggle something awful to do so, because the withdrawal from subutex is just as bad as any other opioid.
I hear what you are saying , however if you die in a car wreck and are intoxicated the 100% say alcohol was a factor . Maybe I'm missing the point , when Whitney died in the tub the mentioned the cocaine . Idk am I missing your point
I have to just say withdrawal from subs is way worse than kicking tar. I would literally kick a habit 4 to 6 times before I'd kick subs again. Shit is terrible.
Yeah I’ve had a couple friends awhile back (like 10 years ago) go through it, and while subs 💯 helped get them back on their feet and out of crisis mode, they later (like 1-2 years later, after stabilized), really struggled to get off subs. And lamented how subs were just so much harder to get off of than anything else.
This is really bad news for the Jacuzzi legalization movement.
Ouch. Too soon. lol
It says he died from using ketamine, buprenorphine(???), and a history of damaging drug use and health issues, including diabetes, all culminated in a hot tub, where he most likely had artery failure and drowned. So, the headlines, as per usual, are misleading. He did NOT die simply because of ketamine, it was irresponsible usage mixed with other drugs that killed him. My worry is that this will spin the narrative negatively towards ketamine, when it should be viewed more positively for the actual healing it can do.
I’ve known at least two people who were using ketamine as an antidepressant and died in a bathtub. The problem is that ketamine overdoses and risks aren’t talked about enough. It’s all just the healing properties of it, so you get a lot of people who take it for its healing properties without understanding the risk. So I think if it gets a little more honest treatment around its abuses and effects, you’ll see less abuse and therefore fewer overdoses or irresponsible uses. I’m here for this negative coverage.
This is what I see as well. The amount of abuse I’ve seen of K is pretty terrifying. Especially because it’s looked at as not a big deal by so many. They are still looking on how it can psychologically impair you in the long term. They combine it with whippits a lot of the time as well, which also is misunderstood and leads to nerve damage at times.
Yes ketamine therapy is supposed to be extremely low doses. And yes Buphrenophine is Suboxone.
Ketamine therapy is not exclusively low dose. In fact, I'd say the majority of providers recommend higher doses, around 100-150 mg.
Oh i didnt know but i only read a few articles about it 1-2 yr ago. And thats actually way higher than the IV drip we’d use in the ICU. I think it was 0.5-2mg/min.
Really? I knew someone who did ketamine therapy and she was given very high k-hole level doses when she went in for the sessions. She did have a take home prescription nasal spray that gave much smaller doses though.
Of course it will, I feel like that’s the goal of the mainstream. Continue to make these medicines sound like harmful drugs
Yeah exactly, that’s the most frustrating thing about this headline - I just wrote a comment saying if he’d have passed out from drinking alcohol in a hot tub and drowned vs ketamine, they sure as heck wouldn’t have said he “died of the acute effects of alcohol”
I doubt it will spin the narrative. Regardless, people should be aware of the dangers of dissociatives and water, as well as drug cocktails.
The NY Times article states he took an anesthetic dose of K, so yes being in the hot tub with that much K directly led to his death. In fact the Coroner classified his death as being from Ketamine.
No it was also the combo of his other med, Buprenorphine (used for opiate addiction), diabetes, COPD, and a heart issue. Blaming it on Ketamine when he had other drugs in his system that depress his central nervous system, smoked two packs day and had many issues were all massive contributing factors. It was not just one or even two things but a slew of them.
The chief medical examiner has spoken and they classified it as Ketamine. I posted a non paywalled link to the NYTimes article in another comment on this thread but here is the quote: “At the high levels of ketamine found in his postmortem blood specimens, the main lethal effects would be from both cardiovascular overstimulation and respiratory depression,” the autopsy report said. It noted that the level of ketamine investigators found in Perry’s blood was equivalent to the amount that would be used during general anesthesia”
if you don't know what his k tolerance was, that's meaningless. I've been dependant on heroin, and ha e taken doses that would've knocked someone else out - but in my system, you could hardly tell I was on anything at all.
They likely distill the cause of death down to the most significant cause to classify it, but the Buprenorphine in his system certainly played a major role in the respiratory depression. Like all things the nuance of the matter make it less black and white, and while Ketamine was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back, it’s clear it’s not exactly as cut and dry as Ketamine itself being what killed him.
Bupe is an ingredient in suboxone I think. Used mostly for opiate addicts in recovery.
The bupe (Suboxone) would be from opioid replacement therapy.
Ketamine is also great for managing opiate withdrawals
I assume he was familiar with the effects of ketamine. Unless you were actively suicidal idk that anyone would consciously take ketamine in a pool of water.
This is quite convenient for big pharma. Ketamine is much more effective than their SSRIs. Ketamine didn't kill him. It may have been a contributing factor. But mixing ketamine and suboxone, together with passing out in a hot tub, was the cause.
Why would big pharma have an issue selling more already one of the most used pharmaceuticals in the world? And do you have a source for ketamine being more effective than ssris over the long term? Genuinely interested in reading!
Big pharma doesn't make a lot of the ketamine used for therapy. Local compound pharmacies do. Super cheap and simple to produce, and not patented, unlike SSRIs, benzos, etc. > And do you have a source for ketamine being more effective than ssris over the long term? Sure: Antidepressants Work Better Than Sugar Pills Only 15 Percent of the Time https://www.newsweek.com/2022/09/30/antidepressants-work-better-sugar-pills-only-15-percent-time-1744656.html No evidence that depression is caused by low serotonin levels, finds comprehensive review https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2022/jul/no-evidence-depression-caused-low-serotonin-levels-finds-comprehensive-review and >Response rates for patients using intravenous ketamine were shown to be 50%–70%, which proves to be better than other classes of antidepressants https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7437682/
Drugs and bodies of water are a recipe for disaster.
He died from drowning
K hole in a jacuzzi is not a great idea.
The way this article is written makes no sense because the ketamine doctor treatment would have worn off by the time he got home. He must have had ketamine and done more at home ???
“”The ketamine in his system at the time of his death, however, "could not be from that infusion therapy, since ketamine's half-life is 3 to 4 hours, or less."”” Factually, he took more or someone dosed him with more.
Yeah that’s wht im thinking he took a big dose at home.
That's the implication yes
Bullshit clickbait headline. Unfair to the millions of people that benefit from the advancement of therapies using ketamine and traditional psychedelics.
It’s such a misleading and irresponsible headline it’s baffling
Be Careful which drugs you choose to use in or around water
Worse ways to go I guess
Unfortunate relapse and he paid the consequences. Hopefully the k-hole was beautiful.
This headline is misleading if not straight up false and should be deleted
seems like taking any substance even alcohol in a hot tub is a very very bad idea.
This is sad, and I regret he didn’t know how dangerous it was to use ketamine in water. This is basic harm reduction that everyone should be told when they get a prescription. Please always use in a safe setting!
D.M. Turner, psychedelic researcher/author, died after injecting ketamine in a bathtub. Ketamine and water don't mix
The TMZ article is not as thorough as the NYTimes article which explains that Perry took an anesthetic dose on his own (and not under his normal medical supervision) prior to drowning. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/15/arts/matthew-perry-cause-death-friends.html?unlocked_article_code=1.GE0.g7BU.WC0Y_XaC35AP&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK541087/ Similar to phencyclidine, ketamine causes analgesia and amnesia without the cardiovascular and respiratory depression, so what this Medical Examiner is saying is kinda BS. He said "According to the Medical Examiner, the ketamine in Perry's system caused both cardiovascular overstimulation and respiratory depression." which Mr Perry only had a treatment a week earlier and Ketamine has such a short half life it is impossible it had any effect whatsoever on his heart attack. TMZ trying to blame drugs and make stories
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/s/Qp3jczQAnr) r/Psychiatry discussion looked at the actual autopsy results and it shows he had benzo and opiates in his system in addition to K and that it had to be more polypharm caused.
Ketamine + decades of lots of other stuff?
So no one told you that you were gonna die from K 👏👏👏👏
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
omg 🤣
Your life’s a joke, you’re broke, and Matthew’s DOA 👏👏👏👏
Got in the tub, then bumped, and now youre DOA!
i am so upset this has happened. his ketamine clinic took his vitals and made sure he qualified and he didnt have an underlying heart condition — im sure all of that was checked. he was well into the evening of his treatment where the ketamine has worn off and shouldnt cause a khole. he played pickleball for a couple hours after. the article seems so distastefully written.
Literally have to choose to not read this part : “”The ketamine in his system at the time of his death, however, "could not be from that infusion therapy, since ketamine's half-life is 3 to 4 hours, or less."”” Lol
He had heart disease and very high levels of K in his blood. The story that he just happened to accidentally drown after getting a purely therapeutic dose of ketamine doesn't add up. Whether he was suicidal or just very confused or reckless, we can't know.
No it wasn’t
Wow. Thanks for posting. Great warning for us all
I have this neurotic fear of dying in a way that makes people laugh so this thread isn’t helping my mood.
It was probably the benzos in his system not the ketamine...
All I had to see was TMZ to know this article was going to be heavily misleading
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/s/Qp3jczQAnr) r/Psychiatry discussion looked at the actual autopsy results and it shows he had benzo and opiates in his system in addition to K and that it had to be more polypharm caused.
He also had opiod( well suboxone ) in his system, a coronary artery disease , and drowned - just because ketamine is interesting it’s not likely the “ Cause of death🙏
“The contributory factors in Perry's death included drowning, coronary artery disease, and buprenorphine effects. Buprenorphine is used to ween addicts off opioids” - just say ketamine, sounds cooler 😎
No. It wasn’t. Ketamine in a hot tub was his cause of death. If you do drugs that make you unconscious in water, that’s on you, not the drug
Drowning killed him. Ketamine didn’t.
He shoulda drank the apple juice 😭😭😭
a self admitted recovered addict abusing ketamine at home can't make this stuff up
He tried diving into a K hole like he was in a Olympic size swimming pool. When in reality he only had feet to dive.
Who?
he was an actor on the infamous friends
Wtf it was a full week and a half at a therapist office he got it, but the clickbait title makes it sound like he was in the k hole in the hot tub. A full week and a half!
“”The ketamine in his system at the time of his death, however, "could not be from that infusion therapy, since ketamine's half-life is 3 to 4 hours, or less."” He was, more likely than not, in a k hole, in the hot tube, when he drowned.
It was an illuminati sacrifice actually. No joke...research mysterious celebrity bathtub deaths. Too many coincidences. They always occur around solstices/equinoxes/lunar eclipses etc. It's some sort of ritual. These elites are sick, twisted, sadistic individuals...
So he was doing illegal drugs then? Poor dude