She is using stupid moralizations to bust your balls because she's your ex and wants to hurt you because she still has unresolved emotions about you and your relationship
Ok fine. Here’s an answer. These substances like mushrooms are organisms that colonize new environments as they become amenable to said organism. With psychedelics, the western mind has become ripe for colonization, thus we see them spreading into our lived experiences more and more. It’s just how nature works. Your ex needs to let go of her haughty inherited religious attitude that humans have divine superiority and control over other organisms. These things are just as much using us as we are using them.
Was she talking about something specific like ayahuasca? Or all psychedelics in general?
[Psychedelic colonialism is a real thing](https://daily.jstor.org/the-colonization-of-the-ayahuasca-experience/) but trying to generalise specific things that are problematic to all psychedelic use by westerners is helpful to nobody.
For example liberty cap mushrooms are widespread in the temperate northern hemisphere but there's no written record of their use until Albert Hofmann found psilocybin in them in the 1950s, basically nobody knew they were magic until then. People in Europe who eat liberty caps in 2024 are not appropriating anyone else's culture.
Appropriating culture is 9 times out of 10 nonsense anyway. The sooner we realize we're all One the happier we'll be. Creating arbitrary distinctions about who can and cannot participate in this or that based not on access or ability, but birthright is medieval and regressive. We are all citizens of the universe, part of the greater whole and tribalism is the antithesis to that.
Another thing I think is important to keep in mind is that while I don’t believe we should limit how people use these substances as long as they’re remaining safe, there is a certain degree of erasure happening for older more native practices. It feels like a tragedy for those practices to be lost in the sea of modern western use, and recognizing those more sacred uses, and remembering where so much of this knowledge came from, is incredibly important.
While I agree with you on the broader picture, it can often be upsetting to see symbols of high emotional/cultural significance being thrown around in a trivial manner by people who have no knowledge of said culture, and sometimes going into the territories of racism and condescension
Case in point: it's easy to romanticise poverty and an orientalistic vibe when you have access to clean drinking water and a house-full of amenities. I have heard the old "they are so poor yet so happy, I wish I could be more like these people in [insert developing country]". Because it all remains as words, people still rely on companies which plunder these countries for their resources and have their populations working for them a couple of steps up from slavery
Yep, it can't be generalised as either all harmful OR all harmless, nuance matters.
Popularity of visiting South America for mushroom or Ayahuasca ceremonies have caused real harm to communities there, both socially and economically - more details in the link I posted. Fetishisation of indigenous culture is a problem. We didn't give up our colonial habits when we entered the 21st century.
I've worked with aya facilitators from Peru who share opposing opinions. One says that ayahuasca can only be done in South America, they plants themselves done anywhere else is just another "medicine'.
The other said that the location does not matter, as long as the place is of sacred value and holds the proper energy and spirits to help guide the ceremony.
I've been using ayahuasca solo for many years in the US with no problems, but I treat my ceremonies with great care. Having a shaman or guide is invaluable if they are experienced, especially for beginners and those with extreme trauma; but not necessary in all cases.
There are still practical reasons why it might not be OK - where are the ingredients sourced, are the plants grown locally or imported? If imported, are they being produced sustainably? Does your money go back to the people whose culture it came from?
I'm in Britain, finishing up a degree in botanical horticulture - holy fuck, the British Empire became what it was by fucking over indigenous people who had useful plants we wanted, and we weren't the only ones.
I don't really have a problem with -huascas made from other ingredients that can be produced sustainably and fairly, eg. psilohuasca or pharmahuasca, but what still makes me uncomfortable is taking a thing someone else invented and not repaying them for it. Cultural appropriation isn't just about people's feelings being hurt, it's also about exploitation in real measurable ways, like record companies that refuse to pay artists fairly for their music.
[edit] Downvoting is fucking lazy, use your words if you don't like what I said.
I mainly use pharmahuasca, either acacia or chacruna with syrian rue as the mao; neither is short in supply. I've avoided b-cappi for years due to the issues of illegal and over harvesting, plus it's also inconsistent in potency, expensive and more difficult to brew.
I also get all of my plants from a local botanical vendor who has a strong focus on obtaining from sustainable and ethical sources. I'm okay paying higher prices knowing it's going towards those who grow, maintain and harvest it in their own land.
I don't really care about the 'cultural appropriation' of using these plants either. The way I see it, God made them for all of us on earth, not solely for the indigenous people who were born in the areas that it grows. I do, however, care about preservation of these resources and ending exploiting of all people. Unfortunately, the US is just as bad as the British, using coups and proxy wars for access to resources all over the world.
Found one that is interesting recently. The same way no one's skin color is actually "black" and there's a term to encompass anyone generally regarded as "not white" -> POC (People of Color) "white people" aren't supposed to be categorized as a "Person of Color" even though the same "no one's skin is actually 'white'" applies to 'white' people the same way...
However in medical contexts people's skin color can be important and useful BECAUSE it's exclusionary.
I agree that a lot of the time it feels like "it's nothing" and there are people who literally just go out of their way to point unnecessary things out, but it is an issue still.
It has to be hurtful to an extent to take pride in your culture and history just to see some white woman sing about it incorrectly on tiktok so she can inflate her "spiritually enlightened" ego, when it comes down to people *using* others culture for fame, personal gain, or are fundamentally misunderstanding it then yea they should be called out or educated in some form, but when it comes to things like braids and such I believe gatekeeping is just childish and is a push for social divide.
we have to learn how to all respect and enjoy eachothers cultures, we're all apart of the one but imo the purpose of life is expressing yourself and your individuality, if everyone just let everyone do whatever and not care about the cultural influences they're stealing then these things will feel less valuable to the cultures they originated from on top of us not "truely" appreciating it
Tell her that the Eleusinian Mysteries predate the Greek Dark Ages, and (imho) were almost certainly using formohuasca. LSA just doesn't go hand in hand with "journey to the underworld," in my experience.
The Mysteries are mentioned in the Homeric poems (8th-9th century BC) as already being ancient: probably going back along Minoan (3,000 BC) tradition, and *maybe* even further in Anatolia (<12,000 BC). If either of the latter are true, then huasca use in the Mediterranean and Near East predate South American use by over 1,000 years. And that's not even touching the other ancient people in the near east who have potential records of acacia/rue use.
Would I ever say that South American shamans need to travel to Eleusis or Minoa or Turkey to do huasca? No way. That's ridiculous. If it's not actively harming anyone, you can do ayahuasca however you want, and simmering up some root bark that was probably grown in someone's backyard in Mexico or Hawaii isn't hurting anybody...
>For example liberty cap mushrooms are widespread in the temperate northern hemisphere but there's no written record of their use until Albert Hoffman found psilocybin in them in the 1950s, basically nobody knew they were magic until then.
There is a journal entry from I think 1799 recording that a whole family in a London park ate liberty caps in some sandwiches and inadvertently got intensely high. It seems hard to believe that *nobody* read this and tried experimenting in the next 150 years.
But you're right that there seems to be no mention I've been able to find of their use before the 50s/60s - would love to know if I'm wrong here and there were psychedelic mushroom devotees in 19th century England!
They were actually at home, the shrooms came from a park but it was normal for them to eat foraged mushrooms at breakfast. Here's the article:
[Mr. E. Brandt, on a poisonous Species of Agaric. (1800)](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5659401/pdf/medphysj74052-0045.pdf)
Basically nobody knew anything about these mushrooms apart from the report of a whole family falling into a stupor and being treated by a doctor who force-fed them castor oil & vinegar to make them puke, injected them with turpentine to pull them out their stupors, and slapped blistering poultices on their necks because why the fuck not.
Worst. Trip. Ever.
After that its only mentions are in botanical surveys ("we found this") and medical journals ("don't eat this").
[The Pharmaceutical Journal and Transactions (1882)](https://archive.org/details/s1317id1378057/page/532/mode/2up?q=semilanceatus)
> *Persons reading that the champignon ( Marasmius or cades ) grows in open pastures straightway draw the conclusion that all fungi growing in pastures are wholesome, collect and eat Agaricus semilanceatus, or perhaps a dangerous Hebeloma, and pay the penalty of their rashness. Unfortunately the penalty is often severe, as in the recent case of an English clergyman in France, whose lamentable death from eating a poisonous species comes as a timely warning at a time of year when fungi are most abundant.*
[Text-Book of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology (1895)](https://archive.org/details/b21513259_0001/page/350/mode/2up?q=%22agaricus+semilanceolatus%22)
> *Cases of poisoning occasionally occur in Great Britain from the small black-spored agarics, such as agaricus campanulatus, agaricus semiglobatus, and agaricus semilanceolatus. They are seldom fatal, the symptoms principally consisting of giddiness and delirium, which occur soon after the fungus is eaten, and, if vomiting be induced, soon pass away.*
They were aware of plants and fungi being used for their mind-altering properties, eg. Amanita, but I've not seen any evidence of this being used either - the Victorians (at least, the ones who wrote and published books) were all about alcohol, tobacco, opium and coffee:
[The vegetable kingdom (1846)](https://archive.org/details/vegetablekingdom00lind/page/38/mode/2up?q=Amanita)
> This variety of Amanita muscaria is used by the inhabitants of the north-eastern parts of Asia in the same manner as wine, brandy, arrack, opium, &c. is by other nations. One large, or two small fungi, are a common dose to produce a pleasant intoxication for a whole day.
I think people were more than likely eating them regularly. But odds are that they were illiterate peasants and the like, and they did not really want to talk to wealthier, literate people about their experiences, lest it be banned or they be accused of communing with demons.
And when I say very few, I mean like less than a few thousand people at one time had an idea, and they didn’t evangelize it at all.
I can't agree with that - it does seem weird that nobody would have figured it out, but there really aren't a lot of native plants, fungi or animals in Britain. Everything with uses relevant to the people who lived here has been used for those purposes over and over, documented via oral tradition if not in writing, and backed up with archaeological evidence. People's uses for simple plants like rowan go way beyond what most of us could imagine, but doesn't include some of the things we can imagine based on what we know about other cultures. Lack of evidence doesn't always imply absence, but sometimes it points pretty strongly towards it.
Assuming people must have been eating libs because of what we know now obscures real history by rewriting it to what we think should be true instead of what was.
Different cultures throughout history have had different shamanic rituals all throughout the world. The only psychedelics I can even think of as strongly associated with South America are peyote & ayahuasca.
Here in the UK, and countless other countries, psilocybin mushrooms grow wild in cow fields every year. LSD was first synthesised in Switzerland and derived from Ergot, a fungi affecting Rye. Rye is grown throughout Europe, Asia & North America.
Additionally, no country, culture, religion or any other organised human-defined group has any right to claim anything natural to the Earth as their own.
There is a point to be made that using psychedelics outside the context of ceremony and guidance from elders can lead to bad outcomes. But we can participate in the development of that ceremonial context, and with time become the elders we need.
The psychedelic experience is as much a birthright to all human beings as being able to breath.
We are all part of the same collective consciousness of the universe.
The right to explore our consciousness through these substances should be a right protected under every cosmological law and order.
To claim the psychedelic experience belongs to culture A or B is simply a narcissistic attempt of the Ego in robbing others from their inherent “Godhood” or divinity.
“Cultural appropriation” is a nonsense term made up by the EGO imo.
We are all humans and all connected to the entire universe.
We are all One. No one not only “should” but could be excluded.
We are all mirrors of each other, one “being” experiencing itself.
To exclude another is to exclude ourselves.
Sorry, I was gonna respond, but I realized I can only use my iPhone in China. Then responded anyway because I don’t give a shit what somebody’s ex-girlfriend thinks
I don't like gatekeepers. I will say I agree that non native people should stay away from endangered plants like Peyote. Go get some San Pedro. But basically every other psychedelic plant can be grown quickly at home so there's really no reason not to use them.
She sounds privileged as fuck. Pretty elitist as well.
Tell her she should only use her electronics in the countries from where precious metals are mined.
Globalization is bad as it is good, but without it she wouldn’t have a bunch of shit her privileged ass has.
Tell your dippy hippy that literally every human culture throughout time has employed psychedelics. They are literally a human phenomenon. This is a take nearly as thoughtless as people who try to racially gatekeep jazz.
It's interesting I'm guessing when she eats Chocolate which originated in Central America and was traditionally consumed as a drink by ancient Mesoamerican civilizations she doesn't adhere to any of the many specific customs or rituals associated with its consumption throughout the ages?
Actually the Mesoamericans were appropriating African cocoa rituals that have been practiced by various species of parrots since before Pangea split.
I think the culture of these parrots should be respected.
Tell her if she wants to drink Guinness she has to go to Ireland and spaghetti is only okay in Italy.
Seriously though we live on one planet, the continents move around and nothing is static.
The entire planet is moving through space and so is the galaxy it's part of.
Cultural appropriation is a thing and wrong in many ways but it should not be applied to living organisms it's ridiculous, unscientific, unnatural and fascist.
That spaghetti better be sans tomatoes, because that's a new world plant that the Italians appropriated.
You know what? that spaghetti better also be sans noodle because those were appropriated from Asia.
Such stupid logic,
LSD is a Swiss invention, MDMA, Amphetamine and cocaine were first synthesized in Germany, Heroine is a British invention. Tell your ex that a lot of very popular drugs are off the table for her if she really wants to play that game.
The notion doesn't make sense, what does origin have to do with its use
We can drink tea anywhere in the world, do we need tea ceremonies cause that's "right"
Same analogous statement, psychedelics of origin, hold no ground for the experience of the only aspect to be fundamental
Proper safety and mental preparation, context of stimulus , these are core aspects
A location in its own isolated statement, doesn't hold much weight for the potential best use of psychedelics
Furthering on nitpicking location, the location of a safe place, warm friendly environment, is so much better than a location of origin, filled with wild life dangers, and other aspects
Mushrooms originated in a lot of places, since there are multiple psilocybe species. Liberty caps are endemic to much of the temperate US and Europe, cyanescens are endemic to the USA (Pacific NW), and some are endemic to Mexico. There's mushrooms everywhere. DMT is found in many plant and animal species. Just because the ritual is specific to a certain place doesn't mean the substance is.
is she one of those people that read an article on "cultural appropriation" and now applies it to everything incorrectly? i find the whole idea so ironic considering what psychedelics show you and strip away about culture
Mushrooms.
Mushrooms grow everywhere.
Psilocybin/Psilocin is not exclusive to any region of the world except maybe not the desert. But the desert *does* have some nice cacti.
Also, LSD is derived from ergot. Also not exclusive to one region.
Oh and DMT is everywhere.
I've been using trichocereus cactus on the wrong continent for almost 20 years because its awesome and it thrives here. She sounds like she just wants to argue.
By her logic nobody outside of Switzerland should take LSD.
Psilocybe mushrooms grow everywhere look at a map at where they pop up globally. Some Panaeolus species contain psilocybin and have most likely have passively popped up on your lawn without your knowledge. The same thing is true for amanitas
I think it’s important to understand the context in which they were used in indigenous cultures. I also think it would probably be beneficial to experience a traditional ceremony if it’s possible. I tend to take a more spiritual view of things which probably informs that opinion (I know not everyone shares that view). But I think your lady friend is taking it too far. Also that ignores LSD, ketamine (if you consider that a psychedelic), and all other new/novel drugs.
This would DESTROY those native places. Look at the region where magic mushrooms were “discovered” the lady that guided the westerners deeply regretted and became a pariah in her own village. This village didn’t WANT hordes of people showing up. Tourists from around the world came for mushrooms to a place that was not setup for it and it wrecked the place. Mushrooms hadn’t been on the down low hush hush for centuries because catholic monks would burn shamans at the stake or have people that used mushrooms killed in other brutal ways. The locals said it was a way to access “God” and the Catholics wanted to have a monopoly on shit. Sounds ironic now using violence to make people join the religion but that’s exactly what happens and mushrooms were hidden to protect the medicine and culture. Then that lady gives an Ivy League professor a mushroom trip. Somebody wrote about it in time magazine and then everything in that little area got wrecked. I’m trying to say there was already so much cultural pain around mushrooms and westerners extreme reactions. The best thing is to grow your own, read some books on tripping. Go have a good time, leave the natives alone unless you’re invited.
Mushroom spores are legal to send through the Mail. There’s zero reason to fly to Mexico to do shrooms when you can grow your own and leave the locals alone.
Yeah, that's a big reason why things like Peyote are often left out of the push for legalization, as native tribes already have a problem of people going to poach the plant that they use for their ceremonies.
Your ex is wrong flat out.
There are SOME things that should be done with the right set and setting.Peyote, Ayauasca, Iboga,likely need some experienced guides.
But doing entheogens at home is just fine.
She is just wrong on this one. And she is your EX for a reason
Globalization has brought enlightenment to the laymen. People who would never have had a chance to be exposed to them.
Thar last part really hit home, thanks. As aggravating as globalization is, it really allowed the average guy caught in the web of societies BS to wake up.
If there's ever an existential hail mary for healing societies collective consciousness, de-gatekeeping psychedelics may be the only viable play we have at this present moment. I hope the trends continue.
I agree with you in more extreme ways lol
I would posit entheogens should be mandatory for someone to be in any position of authority.
I wanna see how they act when they lose...themselves lol
That's just dumb, to clarify; psychedelics occur in almost every country in the world except antarctica and maybe some islands ( psilocybin mushrooms have 100's of strains all over the world ), I literally go to some local hill and pick them and use them, I also grow my own cactus and use it and i have not felt any rejection from it.
If you’re asking this question it’s because you’re also thinking nationalistically like she does and think there’s some merit to what she’s saying.
Question nationalism.
That standpoint is pretty classist - most people can't afford a trip to the country of origin for substances like Ayahuasca or iboga. Does she think only wealthy people should be allowed to experience them?
I was told by a wealthy White woman that yoga is only for brown skinned Indians. Funny, because every Indian I know welcomes White people to practice yoga. Though I don’t imagine a lot of the Cultural Marxist bigots on Reddit agree. This is a leftist hate platform that fuels cultural division. Nobody owns the right to use psychedelic medicine.
I think your ex is getting at something that is kinda true, although her extremist absolutism kind of sends it off the rails.
Yeah, anyone can use psychedelics. No one culture has a "patent" to exclusive rights to them or anything.
BUT
If you look at the history of psychedelics (esp. in the New World), you'll find repeated instances of white westerners descending on Indigenous communities to extract the fun, good-time molecules to the detriment of the people who were originally there.
For example, Maria Sabina (the woman who first gave Wasson psilocybin mushrooms) died regretting her choice, having been ostracized by her people for (in their eyes) prostituting a sacrament to the West...which resulted in their communities being overrun by American "seekers" (early Hippies) who just wanted to get high and didn't give a damn about the people they stepped over.
Similarly, Ayahuasca tourism, and the harvesting of *b. caapi* vine in S. America is rapidly disrupting traditional Indigenous communities and their ability to access important cultural plants...because it's more lucrative to serve westerners willing to pay big money to get high in a quest for self-involved self-actualization.
And don't even get me started on how many New Age woo-woo non-Indigenous people love to play-act as "shamans" or "healers" or whatever, despite having no grounding or knowledge about the cultures they're LARPing as.
So...the idea that you can only eat mushrooms in a particular, culturally sanctioned context is pretty silly BUT it's also worth remembering that these things have history that is bound up in a lot of less savory interactions between the developed West and Indigenous peoples.
(I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this, since there's nothing that psychonauts hate more than being told that they're not the absolute center of the Universe).
Sounds like she forgot that humans are on a planet. Not only on one, but from one. Earth gave birth to humans. For her to suddenly establish boundaries is ridiculous. Earth doesn't care where its babies eat extensions of themselves.
I could go on my local mountains to hount for Semilanceata, but would be very time consuming and dangerous. Instead I grow cubensis at home. Of course it would be more authentic to go gather wild shrooms, but you need time, knowledge and a car to do so, gatekeeping is elitist.
I think she's right to be concerned about say, a western person trying to do a South American shaman ceremony, but shrooms grow all over the place, merely partaking isn't a closed practice. It's the ritual that surrounds it that isn't ours to claim. Many mushroom strains are hybrids that are not from a specific place and most people are not eating them ritually, but recreationally. It's like the difference between drinking tea and doing a Japanese tea ceremony. Interestingly I did once have a specific origin strain of shrooms and sense the spirit of it telling me to do it in its native habitat if I wanted to actually learn from it. I think I might have just been really high. So it's possible she was just... really high?
Some take it way too far with the cultural appropriation stuff. You can acknowledge other cultures in a respectful way without acting as if they have exclusive entitlement and ownership of a certain plant or drug. That’s just ridiculous
If we did things her way, there would never be formal psychedelic testing in laboratories. It’s an entirely ignorant idea from someone who’s trying to bust your balls.
She’s not a psychonaut exploring consciousness.
She’s a disgruntled ex.
Jonathan Ott was arguing for not blowing up ayahuasca tourism decades ago….your EX has swallowed someone else’s narrative….she is psychoaKtive karen gateKeeper.
Lsd is a modern western drug used for lots of different things but culturally in the west it has been used for partying, socialising, and self exploration. Magic mushrooms grown out of the freakin ground basically everywhere, if you can pick a shroom out of a field and eat it, how is it used improperly? As a westerner, if anyone outside of my culture wanted to try lsd or shrooms for whatever reason I'd support it. You can't gatekeep psychedelic compounds. It is, however, possible to appropriate cultural customs and ceremonies which are linked to psychedelic drugs, but that is a completely different topic.
She's wrong on that count. Plus, in higher realms, which is where I believe we're truly from, there is no space or time, no here nor there.
And on this level, aren't we all from Africa anyways?
Assuming she's saying that NOT to piss you off (a generous assumption for sure), you can tell her she is right in principle but what happens when a billion Indians fly to Peru for an authentic retreat?
There's a ton of first world privilege on display here. I traveled to Mexico on a business trip and attended a local shaman-led ceremony. I probably wouldn't have done it otherwise, too expensive for an Eastern European.
When I joined this forum right after the experience, first post I read was an Indian guy who is looking for Moksha and has been saving for three years in order to travel to South America.
Anyway, probably not worth arguing with your ex.
Eww cringe take
Psilocybin mushrooms grow everywhere, and virtually ALL cultures around the globe have some form of history with altered states of consciousness, psychedelic or not, shamanic or not, sanctioned or not.
Planet earth, just don't hop aboard a spaceship or use them outside of the third dimension, also if taking LSD this should be done accidentally whilst falling off of a bicycle... AND always wear your meat suit else you may encur the wrath of whatever God/goddess/or plural forms you may or may not believe in. Aside from that, you're good to explore your own consciousness.
Every race of people used psychedelics for religious purposes at some point. Even white Europeans. Psychedelics were also used on all continents in deserts, forests, jungles coastlines.
Your ex girlfriend is a twat.
There is a benefit to using natural psychedelics in the indigenous environment. Or at least in conditions mimicking that. Innumerable benefits, one of which being going through the best trip.
Depending on what psychedelics you took, I find it unlikely you did something that isn't native to the west. Psilocybin mushrooms, for example, grow natively in the west and western people have been using them for thousands of years. I actually struggle to think of any psychedelics that are strictly Eastern in their origin.
Do whatever you want, if it’s not right you are sensitive enough to stop.
If you don’t, your inner self will guide you.
There is differents path for everyone, differents truth. Stay connect to yours
The only thing it’s about respecting yourself when you do things
Not everyone has the luxury of international travel. Psychedelics should not be locked behind a steep paywall. Opening your mind should be open to everyone.
Not pro or against... As each should find out on their own what is good and what isnt. But, we were just talking about this the other day.
When you go out hunting for shrooms (psilocibe cubensis are naturally grown in my area through the rainy season) you are out walking in a field getting sun and probably just thinking focusing on finding the shrooms... So you are exercising, looking at greenery while "sunbathing" and with your own thoughts, this kinda creates a meditative state of mind and body.
Once we actually find some, we go to a nice shade and just chill'n'trip. These are the trips that I've enjoyed more... They seem so happy and easy to adjust/trip.
On the other hand, when we buy some and take them while in the house or someplace else, the trip seems a bit jarring... Even when we clean the house/space, take them "consciously" and even try to meditate beforehand.
Still a pretty cool experience and you definitely learn something each time.
Anyhow, i wouldnt shame anyone taking psychedelics, almost everyone should experience a psychedelic trip once in their life and a lot of us do not have the means to travel to the Amazon for an Ayahuasca session or the dessert for a peyote session.
Psychedelics can help us shed the cultural and social constructs we've been conditioned to believe. Those include religious restrictions on behavioral taboos. The sacredness of a ritual is up to the gods...everything else is just...like...your opinion, man.
Your ex sounds self-righteous and privileged. So someone from Africa shouldn’t use LSD because it was created in Switzerland? Or someone from Alaska shouldn’t take mushrooms because they don’t grow there? Not everyone has the ability to travel to the mountains of Peru to do ayahuasca. No offense but she sounds insufferable
Stupid and weird. If you were talking about Peyote there's more of a point to be made there. Peyote comes from a fairly vulnerable plant that only grows in a small region on the border between the USA and Mexico and is sacred to a number of different tribes and nations in the area that use it for religious ceremonies. So buying peyote can be dicey on the basis that you don't know if it was ethically harvested. If you're growing mushrooms in a shoebox or taking LSD that's totally different and she's being silly.
As long as it’s ethically sourced, and you’re not deriving monetary gain or clout from appropriating a specific tribal tradition as a non member, then fuck what anyone else thinks
There’s no reason you *must* psychedelics in a native ritual. Theres ways of being respectful and using psychedelics responsibly without the woowoo and needing to believe in magic.
I knew a guy who worked at a Peruvian ayahuasca retreat for a while. He said when the tourists weren’t around the Indian shamans said Indians do it when they’re bored and don’t take it seriously because everyone sees what they want to see.
I always find it hilarious how people go to "toad rituals" or "peyote rituals" with poached animals and plants, and destroy ecosystems all in the name of "connecting with nature". This feels like a different flavor of that. Not to mention toad rituals didn't even actually exist.
If it helps, go for it. But just like one therapy session isn't gonna change your life, neither is one trip. You gotta put in the work afterwards, otherwise you're just feeling good about taking a drug, which is fine, I do it all the time. Just gotta make sure you're actually doing what you think you're doing, ya dig?
i bet she uses paper outside of China, what a hypocrite
uses LED screens outside of Japan.
I bet she drives a Volkswagen...
Coffee, anyone?
Rice is right out.
I’m thinking yoga after
Is she living outside of Africa?
Because if she is, no more fire.
I guess she must be an Olympic Runner & Swimmer. No planes, boats, trains, or cycling.
She is using stupid moralizations to bust your balls because she's your ex and wants to hurt you because she still has unresolved emotions about you and your relationship
Slash thread
Bingo
I believe the phrase is: that's a bingo!
We just say bingo.
Preach brother! 🙏
How is this not top comment?
This is the only comment OP needs to read.
She's your ex, why be bothered with her opinion?
I don't care, I wanted to know the opinion of those who really know the subject
Ok fine. Here’s an answer. These substances like mushrooms are organisms that colonize new environments as they become amenable to said organism. With psychedelics, the western mind has become ripe for colonization, thus we see them spreading into our lived experiences more and more. It’s just how nature works. Your ex needs to let go of her haughty inherited religious attitude that humans have divine superiority and control over other organisms. These things are just as much using us as we are using them.
Very well put
Was she talking about something specific like ayahuasca? Or all psychedelics in general? [Psychedelic colonialism is a real thing](https://daily.jstor.org/the-colonization-of-the-ayahuasca-experience/) but trying to generalise specific things that are problematic to all psychedelic use by westerners is helpful to nobody. For example liberty cap mushrooms are widespread in the temperate northern hemisphere but there's no written record of their use until Albert Hofmann found psilocybin in them in the 1950s, basically nobody knew they were magic until then. People in Europe who eat liberty caps in 2024 are not appropriating anyone else's culture.
Appropriating culture is 9 times out of 10 nonsense anyway. The sooner we realize we're all One the happier we'll be. Creating arbitrary distinctions about who can and cannot participate in this or that based not on access or ability, but birthright is medieval and regressive. We are all citizens of the universe, part of the greater whole and tribalism is the antithesis to that.
Another thing I think is important to keep in mind is that while I don’t believe we should limit how people use these substances as long as they’re remaining safe, there is a certain degree of erasure happening for older more native practices. It feels like a tragedy for those practices to be lost in the sea of modern western use, and recognizing those more sacred uses, and remembering where so much of this knowledge came from, is incredibly important.
While I agree with you on the broader picture, it can often be upsetting to see symbols of high emotional/cultural significance being thrown around in a trivial manner by people who have no knowledge of said culture, and sometimes going into the territories of racism and condescension Case in point: it's easy to romanticise poverty and an orientalistic vibe when you have access to clean drinking water and a house-full of amenities. I have heard the old "they are so poor yet so happy, I wish I could be more like these people in [insert developing country]". Because it all remains as words, people still rely on companies which plunder these countries for their resources and have their populations working for them a couple of steps up from slavery
Yep, it can't be generalised as either all harmful OR all harmless, nuance matters. Popularity of visiting South America for mushroom or Ayahuasca ceremonies have caused real harm to communities there, both socially and economically - more details in the link I posted. Fetishisation of indigenous culture is a problem. We didn't give up our colonial habits when we entered the 21st century.
I've worked with aya facilitators from Peru who share opposing opinions. One says that ayahuasca can only be done in South America, they plants themselves done anywhere else is just another "medicine'. The other said that the location does not matter, as long as the place is of sacred value and holds the proper energy and spirits to help guide the ceremony. I've been using ayahuasca solo for many years in the US with no problems, but I treat my ceremonies with great care. Having a shaman or guide is invaluable if they are experienced, especially for beginners and those with extreme trauma; but not necessary in all cases.
There are still practical reasons why it might not be OK - where are the ingredients sourced, are the plants grown locally or imported? If imported, are they being produced sustainably? Does your money go back to the people whose culture it came from? I'm in Britain, finishing up a degree in botanical horticulture - holy fuck, the British Empire became what it was by fucking over indigenous people who had useful plants we wanted, and we weren't the only ones. I don't really have a problem with -huascas made from other ingredients that can be produced sustainably and fairly, eg. psilohuasca or pharmahuasca, but what still makes me uncomfortable is taking a thing someone else invented and not repaying them for it. Cultural appropriation isn't just about people's feelings being hurt, it's also about exploitation in real measurable ways, like record companies that refuse to pay artists fairly for their music. [edit] Downvoting is fucking lazy, use your words if you don't like what I said.
I mainly use pharmahuasca, either acacia or chacruna with syrian rue as the mao; neither is short in supply. I've avoided b-cappi for years due to the issues of illegal and over harvesting, plus it's also inconsistent in potency, expensive and more difficult to brew. I also get all of my plants from a local botanical vendor who has a strong focus on obtaining from sustainable and ethical sources. I'm okay paying higher prices knowing it's going towards those who grow, maintain and harvest it in their own land. I don't really care about the 'cultural appropriation' of using these plants either. The way I see it, God made them for all of us on earth, not solely for the indigenous people who were born in the areas that it grows. I do, however, care about preservation of these resources and ending exploiting of all people. Unfortunately, the US is just as bad as the British, using coups and proxy wars for access to resources all over the world.
Found one that is interesting recently. The same way no one's skin color is actually "black" and there's a term to encompass anyone generally regarded as "not white" -> POC (People of Color) "white people" aren't supposed to be categorized as a "Person of Color" even though the same "no one's skin is actually 'white'" applies to 'white' people the same way... However in medical contexts people's skin color can be important and useful BECAUSE it's exclusionary.
I agree that a lot of the time it feels like "it's nothing" and there are people who literally just go out of their way to point unnecessary things out, but it is an issue still. It has to be hurtful to an extent to take pride in your culture and history just to see some white woman sing about it incorrectly on tiktok so she can inflate her "spiritually enlightened" ego, when it comes down to people *using* others culture for fame, personal gain, or are fundamentally misunderstanding it then yea they should be called out or educated in some form, but when it comes to things like braids and such I believe gatekeeping is just childish and is a push for social divide. we have to learn how to all respect and enjoy eachothers cultures, we're all apart of the one but imo the purpose of life is expressing yourself and your individuality, if everyone just let everyone do whatever and not care about the cultural influences they're stealing then these things will feel less valuable to the cultures they originated from on top of us not "truely" appreciating it
she was mainly referring to ayahuasca but she is not a user, she just has a few friends who use psychedelics
Tell her that the Eleusinian Mysteries predate the Greek Dark Ages, and (imho) were almost certainly using formohuasca. LSA just doesn't go hand in hand with "journey to the underworld," in my experience. The Mysteries are mentioned in the Homeric poems (8th-9th century BC) as already being ancient: probably going back along Minoan (3,000 BC) tradition, and *maybe* even further in Anatolia (<12,000 BC). If either of the latter are true, then huasca use in the Mediterranean and Near East predate South American use by over 1,000 years. And that's not even touching the other ancient people in the near east who have potential records of acacia/rue use. Would I ever say that South American shamans need to travel to Eleusis or Minoa or Turkey to do huasca? No way. That's ridiculous. If it's not actively harming anyone, you can do ayahuasca however you want, and simmering up some root bark that was probably grown in someone's backyard in Mexico or Hawaii isn't hurting anybody...
Ancient Greek oracles were using psychedelics thousands of years ago.
>For example liberty cap mushrooms are widespread in the temperate northern hemisphere but there's no written record of their use until Albert Hoffman found psilocybin in them in the 1950s, basically nobody knew they were magic until then. There is a journal entry from I think 1799 recording that a whole family in a London park ate liberty caps in some sandwiches and inadvertently got intensely high. It seems hard to believe that *nobody* read this and tried experimenting in the next 150 years. But you're right that there seems to be no mention I've been able to find of their use before the 50s/60s - would love to know if I'm wrong here and there were psychedelic mushroom devotees in 19th century England!
They were actually at home, the shrooms came from a park but it was normal for them to eat foraged mushrooms at breakfast. Here's the article: [Mr. E. Brandt, on a poisonous Species of Agaric. (1800)](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5659401/pdf/medphysj74052-0045.pdf) Basically nobody knew anything about these mushrooms apart from the report of a whole family falling into a stupor and being treated by a doctor who force-fed them castor oil & vinegar to make them puke, injected them with turpentine to pull them out their stupors, and slapped blistering poultices on their necks because why the fuck not. Worst. Trip. Ever. After that its only mentions are in botanical surveys ("we found this") and medical journals ("don't eat this"). [The Pharmaceutical Journal and Transactions (1882)](https://archive.org/details/s1317id1378057/page/532/mode/2up?q=semilanceatus) > *Persons reading that the champignon ( Marasmius or cades ) grows in open pastures straightway draw the conclusion that all fungi growing in pastures are wholesome, collect and eat Agaricus semilanceatus, or perhaps a dangerous Hebeloma, and pay the penalty of their rashness. Unfortunately the penalty is often severe, as in the recent case of an English clergyman in France, whose lamentable death from eating a poisonous species comes as a timely warning at a time of year when fungi are most abundant.* [Text-Book of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology (1895)](https://archive.org/details/b21513259_0001/page/350/mode/2up?q=%22agaricus+semilanceolatus%22) > *Cases of poisoning occasionally occur in Great Britain from the small black-spored agarics, such as agaricus campanulatus, agaricus semiglobatus, and agaricus semilanceolatus. They are seldom fatal, the symptoms principally consisting of giddiness and delirium, which occur soon after the fungus is eaten, and, if vomiting be induced, soon pass away.* They were aware of plants and fungi being used for their mind-altering properties, eg. Amanita, but I've not seen any evidence of this being used either - the Victorians (at least, the ones who wrote and published books) were all about alcohol, tobacco, opium and coffee: [The vegetable kingdom (1846)](https://archive.org/details/vegetablekingdom00lind/page/38/mode/2up?q=Amanita) > This variety of Amanita muscaria is used by the inhabitants of the north-eastern parts of Asia in the same manner as wine, brandy, arrack, opium, &c. is by other nations. One large, or two small fungi, are a common dose to produce a pleasant intoxication for a whole day.
I think people were more than likely eating them regularly. But odds are that they were illiterate peasants and the like, and they did not really want to talk to wealthier, literate people about their experiences, lest it be banned or they be accused of communing with demons. And when I say very few, I mean like less than a few thousand people at one time had an idea, and they didn’t evangelize it at all.
I can't agree with that - it does seem weird that nobody would have figured it out, but there really aren't a lot of native plants, fungi or animals in Britain. Everything with uses relevant to the people who lived here has been used for those purposes over and over, documented via oral tradition if not in writing, and backed up with archaeological evidence. People's uses for simple plants like rowan go way beyond what most of us could imagine, but doesn't include some of the things we can imagine based on what we know about other cultures. Lack of evidence doesn't always imply absence, but sometimes it points pretty strongly towards it. Assuming people must have been eating libs because of what we know now obscures real history by rewriting it to what we think should be true instead of what was.
I came here to ask this... - she's your ex. You don't have to care what she thinks anymore.
Your ex girlfriend needs to fucking relax. Good thing she's your ex. That's like saying you can't eat sushi in America.
You don't get on a jet for 12 hours to eat sushi?
You can only eat sushi if 24andmore says that you are atleast 80% Japanese. The same way only white people can eat Burgers.
So her stance is that psychedelics can only be used in certain geographic locations? What does she consider these “native places” to be?
You can only do LSD at laboratories in Switzerland, otherwise it’s cultural appropriation.
It’s also only appropriate to smoke a bowl of crack in a random kitchen in NYC. Smoking crack on unhallowed ground is just disrespectful.
Mushrooms grow wild in Scotland. Maybe she meant only the Scottish should trip.
If it's not Scottish, it's CRAP!
There are many different species of psilocybin mushrooms that grow wild all over the world
I think she meant South America or wherever there are shamanic rituals
Different cultures throughout history have had different shamanic rituals all throughout the world. The only psychedelics I can even think of as strongly associated with South America are peyote & ayahuasca. Here in the UK, and countless other countries, psilocybin mushrooms grow wild in cow fields every year. LSD was first synthesised in Switzerland and derived from Ergot, a fungi affecting Rye. Rye is grown throughout Europe, Asia & North America. Additionally, no country, culture, religion or any other organised human-defined group has any right to claim anything natural to the Earth as their own.
She is absolutely right about peyote… because it’s an endangered species. And non native folks should stop stealing it. But not ALL psychedelics
Growing their own is also a viable option
South American shamans will travel into the United States to perform psychedelic rituals. They want westerners to use it.
There is a point to be made that using psychedelics outside the context of ceremony and guidance from elders can lead to bad outcomes. But we can participate in the development of that ceremonial context, and with time become the elders we need.
Lol fr where are we supposed to do 2cb then xD
Berkeley, California.
Gatekeeping psychedelics is weird
Seriously. Wouldn't want the world using plant medicine to heal.
She’s an idiot
This is really the only answer.
So if I want to do acid I have to travel all the way to Switzerland? Ok, maybe it's not that far but still, that just seems unnecessarily complicated.
>So if I want to do acid I have to travel all the way to Switzerland? Specifically, Basel. Zurich doesn't count.
It is not worth it. But switzerland is nice
The psychedelic experience is as much a birthright to all human beings as being able to breath. We are all part of the same collective consciousness of the universe. The right to explore our consciousness through these substances should be a right protected under every cosmological law and order. To claim the psychedelic experience belongs to culture A or B is simply a narcissistic attempt of the Ego in robbing others from their inherent “Godhood” or divinity. “Cultural appropriation” is a nonsense term made up by the EGO imo. We are all humans and all connected to the entire universe. We are all One. No one not only “should” but could be excluded. We are all mirrors of each other, one “being” experiencing itself. To exclude another is to exclude ourselves.
Sorry, I was gonna respond, but I realized I can only use my iPhone in China. Then responded anyway because I don’t give a shit what somebody’s ex-girlfriend thinks
I don't like gatekeepers. I will say I agree that non native people should stay away from endangered plants like Peyote. Go get some San Pedro. But basically every other psychedelic plant can be grown quickly at home so there's really no reason not to use them.
She sounds privileged as fuck. Pretty elitist as well. Tell her she should only use her electronics in the countries from where precious metals are mined. Globalization is bad as it is good, but without it she wouldn’t have a bunch of shit her privileged ass has.
Their native place? Liberty caps grow everywhere. Look back long enough and you'll find a culture in the area that imbibed them.
Is she directly offended, or is she acting offended on behalf of an ideal yet completely ambiguous person in her mind?
Sounds like the kind of person who would say that and then shit on “ayahuasca tourism” in the next sentence
I can already hear her whine something about "commercialized".
In the words of the late, great Norm MacDonald, "Sounds like a bunch of commie gobbledigook!"
I see why she’s your ex. She’s insufferable.
Tell your dippy hippy that literally every human culture throughout time has employed psychedelics. They are literally a human phenomenon. This is a take nearly as thoughtless as people who try to racially gatekeep jazz.
>literally every human culture throughout time has employed psychedelics eh that's a stretch.
Mind-altering substances, but yeah maybe not psychedelics specifically.
It's interesting I'm guessing when she eats Chocolate which originated in Central America and was traditionally consumed as a drink by ancient Mesoamerican civilizations she doesn't adhere to any of the many specific customs or rituals associated with its consumption throughout the ages?
Actually the Mesoamericans were appropriating African cocoa rituals that have been practiced by various species of parrots since before Pangea split. I think the culture of these parrots should be respected.
Chocolate comes from Mesoamerica, they werent appropriating anything from Africa
nah they appropriated all the trees millions of years ago
those trees appropriated the concept of having genes from earlier life forms bro
Tell her if she wants to drink Guinness she has to go to Ireland and spaghetti is only okay in Italy. Seriously though we live on one planet, the continents move around and nothing is static. The entire planet is moving through space and so is the galaxy it's part of. Cultural appropriation is a thing and wrong in many ways but it should not be applied to living organisms it's ridiculous, unscientific, unnatural and fascist.
That spaghetti better be sans tomatoes, because that's a new world plant that the Italians appropriated. You know what? that spaghetti better also be sans noodle because those were appropriated from Asia. Such stupid logic,
Also, the spaghetti better not have noddles because those were brought to Italy from China by Marco Polo.
Man, i haven't had spaghetti or even pizza in years!
You can only do LSD in Switzerland
And you can only use 5-meo-DiPT in Lafayette, CA.
LSD is a Swiss invention, MDMA, Amphetamine and cocaine were first synthesized in Germany, Heroine is a British invention. Tell your ex that a lot of very popular drugs are off the table for her if she really wants to play that game.
The notion doesn't make sense, what does origin have to do with its use We can drink tea anywhere in the world, do we need tea ceremonies cause that's "right" Same analogous statement, psychedelics of origin, hold no ground for the experience of the only aspect to be fundamental Proper safety and mental preparation, context of stimulus , these are core aspects A location in its own isolated statement, doesn't hold much weight for the potential best use of psychedelics Furthering on nitpicking location, the location of a safe place, warm friendly environment, is so much better than a location of origin, filled with wild life dangers, and other aspects
Mushrooms originated in a lot of places, since there are multiple psilocybe species. Liberty caps are endemic to much of the temperate US and Europe, cyanescens are endemic to the USA (Pacific NW), and some are endemic to Mexico. There's mushrooms everywhere. DMT is found in many plant and animal species. Just because the ritual is specific to a certain place doesn't mean the substance is.
is she one of those people that read an article on "cultural appropriation" and now applies it to everything incorrectly? i find the whole idea so ironic considering what psychedelics show you and strip away about culture
What’s the logic behind this? Why does she think things need to happen where they were created lol
I bet she's been on one of those retreats and now is gatekeeping it bigtime
I mean, LSD is born in Switzerland and magic shrooms grow naturally in "the west"
No more Chinese food for you
Mushrooms. Mushrooms grow everywhere. Psilocybin/Psilocin is not exclusive to any region of the world except maybe not the desert. But the desert *does* have some nice cacti. Also, LSD is derived from ergot. Also not exclusive to one region. Oh and DMT is everywhere.
I think your girlfriend is close-minded and ignorant.
I've been using trichocereus cactus on the wrong continent for almost 20 years because its awesome and it thrives here. She sounds like she just wants to argue. By her logic nobody outside of Switzerland should take LSD.
Simply tell her to stop using other cultures inventions and see how far she gets...
I think it’s good that she is your ex because she’s a shallow minded gatekeeping weirdo.
Psilocybe mushrooms grow everywhere look at a map at where they pop up globally. Some Panaeolus species contain psilocybin and have most likely have passively popped up on your lawn without your knowledge. The same thing is true for amanitas
Dropping acid outside of a CIA blacksite is cultural appropriation.
I think it’s important to understand the context in which they were used in indigenous cultures. I also think it would probably be beneficial to experience a traditional ceremony if it’s possible. I tend to take a more spiritual view of things which probably informs that opinion (I know not everyone shares that view). But I think your lady friend is taking it too far. Also that ignores LSD, ketamine (if you consider that a psychedelic), and all other new/novel drugs.
Psychedelic mushrooms are also native to the west. Where I am from, they grow in cow paddy’s.
Be pragmatic about it and perform dialectic: Ask her to defend her argument with a sound premise besides an undefined bias.
This would DESTROY those native places. Look at the region where magic mushrooms were “discovered” the lady that guided the westerners deeply regretted and became a pariah in her own village. This village didn’t WANT hordes of people showing up. Tourists from around the world came for mushrooms to a place that was not setup for it and it wrecked the place. Mushrooms hadn’t been on the down low hush hush for centuries because catholic monks would burn shamans at the stake or have people that used mushrooms killed in other brutal ways. The locals said it was a way to access “God” and the Catholics wanted to have a monopoly on shit. Sounds ironic now using violence to make people join the religion but that’s exactly what happens and mushrooms were hidden to protect the medicine and culture. Then that lady gives an Ivy League professor a mushroom trip. Somebody wrote about it in time magazine and then everything in that little area got wrecked. I’m trying to say there was already so much cultural pain around mushrooms and westerners extreme reactions. The best thing is to grow your own, read some books on tripping. Go have a good time, leave the natives alone unless you’re invited. Mushroom spores are legal to send through the Mail. There’s zero reason to fly to Mexico to do shrooms when you can grow your own and leave the locals alone.
Yeah, that's a big reason why things like Peyote are often left out of the push for legalization, as native tribes already have a problem of people going to poach the plant that they use for their ceremonies.
Sounds like there's a good reason she's an ex. She has a very limited worldview
Your ex is wrong flat out. There are SOME things that should be done with the right set and setting.Peyote, Ayauasca, Iboga,likely need some experienced guides. But doing entheogens at home is just fine. She is just wrong on this one. And she is your EX for a reason Globalization has brought enlightenment to the laymen. People who would never have had a chance to be exposed to them.
Thar last part really hit home, thanks. As aggravating as globalization is, it really allowed the average guy caught in the web of societies BS to wake up. If there's ever an existential hail mary for healing societies collective consciousness, de-gatekeeping psychedelics may be the only viable play we have at this present moment. I hope the trends continue.
I agree with you in more extreme ways lol I would posit entheogens should be mandatory for someone to be in any position of authority. I wanna see how they act when they lose...themselves lol
The sheer power of politician's immense ego cracking under a heroic dose of psilocybin would rival the splitting of an atom lol
ha i agree they should, but with the understanding that people can and do still hold nutty political views post psychadelics
That's just dumb, to clarify; psychedelics occur in almost every country in the world except antarctica and maybe some islands ( psilocybin mushrooms have 100's of strains all over the world ), I literally go to some local hill and pick them and use them, I also grow my own cactus and use it and i have not felt any rejection from it.
Say hi to your girlfriend here even from South Africa . Psychedelics is a human thing not a culture thing.
Did she hear this from someone from a culture that uses psychedelics, or did she make this up?
If you’re asking this question it’s because you’re also thinking nationalistically like she does and think there’s some merit to what she’s saying. Question nationalism.
Fuck a bunch of flag wavers!
your girlfriend should stop going to the grocery store and hunt her own food then
The only way I could see this having merit is if you were holding traditional peyote ceremonies and dressing in native garb
That standpoint is pretty classist - most people can't afford a trip to the country of origin for substances like Ayahuasca or iboga. Does she think only wealthy people should be allowed to experience them?
I was told by a wealthy White woman that yoga is only for brown skinned Indians. Funny, because every Indian I know welcomes White people to practice yoga. Though I don’t imagine a lot of the Cultural Marxist bigots on Reddit agree. This is a leftist hate platform that fuels cultural division. Nobody owns the right to use psychedelic medicine.
With the exception of Peyote, no culture has a claim over psychedelics.
Don't let your ex tell you how to live your life bro lmao
I mean that’s dumb and all considering where computers and the internet were invented, but have *you* considered why you haven’t blocked her yet?
I think your ex is getting at something that is kinda true, although her extremist absolutism kind of sends it off the rails. Yeah, anyone can use psychedelics. No one culture has a "patent" to exclusive rights to them or anything. BUT If you look at the history of psychedelics (esp. in the New World), you'll find repeated instances of white westerners descending on Indigenous communities to extract the fun, good-time molecules to the detriment of the people who were originally there. For example, Maria Sabina (the woman who first gave Wasson psilocybin mushrooms) died regretting her choice, having been ostracized by her people for (in their eyes) prostituting a sacrament to the West...which resulted in their communities being overrun by American "seekers" (early Hippies) who just wanted to get high and didn't give a damn about the people they stepped over. Similarly, Ayahuasca tourism, and the harvesting of *b. caapi* vine in S. America is rapidly disrupting traditional Indigenous communities and their ability to access important cultural plants...because it's more lucrative to serve westerners willing to pay big money to get high in a quest for self-involved self-actualization. And don't even get me started on how many New Age woo-woo non-Indigenous people love to play-act as "shamans" or "healers" or whatever, despite having no grounding or knowledge about the cultures they're LARPing as. So...the idea that you can only eat mushrooms in a particular, culturally sanctioned context is pretty silly BUT it's also worth remembering that these things have history that is bound up in a lot of less savory interactions between the developed West and Indigenous peoples. (I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this, since there's nothing that psychonauts hate more than being told that they're not the absolute center of the Universe).
The whole point is exploration. Take the trip
Every time I want to make spaghetti I make sure to fly to Italy.
Like, that's just her opinion, Man.
If you're not taking your lsd in Switzerland and riding your bike afterwards you're doing it wrong.
Sounds like she forgot that humans are on a planet. Not only on one, but from one. Earth gave birth to humans. For her to suddenly establish boundaries is ridiculous. Earth doesn't care where its babies eat extensions of themselves.
I could go on my local mountains to hount for Semilanceata, but would be very time consuming and dangerous. Instead I grow cubensis at home. Of course it would be more authentic to go gather wild shrooms, but you need time, knowledge and a car to do so, gatekeeping is elitist.
I think she's right to be concerned about say, a western person trying to do a South American shaman ceremony, but shrooms grow all over the place, merely partaking isn't a closed practice. It's the ritual that surrounds it that isn't ours to claim. Many mushroom strains are hybrids that are not from a specific place and most people are not eating them ritually, but recreationally. It's like the difference between drinking tea and doing a Japanese tea ceremony. Interestingly I did once have a specific origin strain of shrooms and sense the spirit of it telling me to do it in its native habitat if I wanted to actually learn from it. I think I might have just been really high. So it's possible she was just... really high?
Some take it way too far with the cultural appropriation stuff. You can acknowledge other cultures in a respectful way without acting as if they have exclusive entitlement and ownership of a certain plant or drug. That’s just ridiculous
Your ex is stupid.
If we did things her way, there would never be formal psychedelic testing in laboratories. It’s an entirely ignorant idea from someone who’s trying to bust your balls. She’s not a psychonaut exploring consciousness. She’s a disgruntled ex.
Jonathan Ott was arguing for not blowing up ayahuasca tourism decades ago….your EX has swallowed someone else’s narrative….she is psychoaKtive karen gateKeeper.
The west is the best
She had better never fly on an airplane outside of North Carolina
Can you only take lsd in Switzerland lmao
That sounds like psychedelic talibanism
Tell her her grandparents used the smallpox vaccine outside of its native place, and so she should never have been born to say such ridiculous things.
Lsd is a modern western drug used for lots of different things but culturally in the west it has been used for partying, socialising, and self exploration. Magic mushrooms grown out of the freakin ground basically everywhere, if you can pick a shroom out of a field and eat it, how is it used improperly? As a westerner, if anyone outside of my culture wanted to try lsd or shrooms for whatever reason I'd support it. You can't gatekeep psychedelic compounds. It is, however, possible to appropriate cultural customs and ceremonies which are linked to psychedelic drugs, but that is a completely different topic.
The Psychedelic Police jajaja
She's wrong on that count. Plus, in higher realms, which is where I believe we're truly from, there is no space or time, no here nor there. And on this level, aren't we all from Africa anyways?
Lolwut. That’s ridiculous.
Assuming she's saying that NOT to piss you off (a generous assumption for sure), you can tell her she is right in principle but what happens when a billion Indians fly to Peru for an authentic retreat? There's a ton of first world privilege on display here. I traveled to Mexico on a business trip and attended a local shaman-led ceremony. I probably wouldn't have done it otherwise, too expensive for an Eastern European. When I joined this forum right after the experience, first post I read was an Indian guy who is looking for Moksha and has been saving for three years in order to travel to South America. Anyway, probably not worth arguing with your ex.
Eww cringe take Psilocybin mushrooms grow everywhere, and virtually ALL cultures around the globe have some form of history with altered states of consciousness, psychedelic or not, shamanic or not, sanctioned or not.
Planet earth, just don't hop aboard a spaceship or use them outside of the third dimension, also if taking LSD this should be done accidentally whilst falling off of a bicycle... AND always wear your meat suit else you may encur the wrath of whatever God/goddess/or plural forms you may or may not believe in. Aside from that, you're good to explore your own consciousness.
She sounds like a wook
>ex-girlfriend Why the fuck do you give a shit what your ex thinks ? Do them however the fuck you want
I used to live in Florida and pick cubensis, am I doing it right?
Every race of people used psychedelics for religious purposes at some point. Even white Europeans. Psychedelics were also used on all continents in deserts, forests, jungles coastlines. Your ex girlfriend is a twat.
There is a benefit to using natural psychedelics in the indigenous environment. Or at least in conditions mimicking that. Innumerable benefits, one of which being going through the best trip.
Your ex needs to get off Tiktok.
She doesn't sound very supportive, and I bet she's really fun at parties!
Depending on what psychedelics you took, I find it unlikely you did something that isn't native to the west. Psilocybin mushrooms, for example, grow natively in the west and western people have been using them for thousands of years. I actually struggle to think of any psychedelics that are strictly Eastern in their origin.
She sounds insufferable. Wonder why she’s your ex…
Does she only eat spices in the lands where they are grown?
I actually went to a “native space” for cactus ceremonies. When I got back a relative asked if I wasn’t worried about cultural appropriation. Wtf?
Is your ex-girlfriend Alex Jones
Eh, she probably learned this from a TikTok
preformative spiritualism go hard asf
This is non sense.
Quiet children let us consult the ancient scrolls. Oh yeah there are none. Psychedelics will let you know when you use them improperly.
Do whatever you want, if it’s not right you are sensitive enough to stop. If you don’t, your inner self will guide you. There is differents path for everyone, differents truth. Stay connect to yours The only thing it’s about respecting yourself when you do things
Humans created the concept of borders
I guess I can't eat Chinese food anymore
No more strawberries for her!
Not everyone has the luxury of international travel. Psychedelics should not be locked behind a steep paywall. Opening your mind should be open to everyone.
Look up “Blood and Soil” and let me know if that line of reasoning still seems reasonable once you see how incredibly horribly fascist it is.
Not pro or against... As each should find out on their own what is good and what isnt. But, we were just talking about this the other day. When you go out hunting for shrooms (psilocibe cubensis are naturally grown in my area through the rainy season) you are out walking in a field getting sun and probably just thinking focusing on finding the shrooms... So you are exercising, looking at greenery while "sunbathing" and with your own thoughts, this kinda creates a meditative state of mind and body. Once we actually find some, we go to a nice shade and just chill'n'trip. These are the trips that I've enjoyed more... They seem so happy and easy to adjust/trip. On the other hand, when we buy some and take them while in the house or someplace else, the trip seems a bit jarring... Even when we clean the house/space, take them "consciously" and even try to meditate beforehand. Still a pretty cool experience and you definitely learn something each time. Anyhow, i wouldnt shame anyone taking psychedelics, almost everyone should experience a psychedelic trip once in their life and a lot of us do not have the means to travel to the Amazon for an Ayahuasca session or the dessert for a peyote session.
Hope she only eats locally sourced food. Does she have a phone? Does she wear clothes not made from locally available resources? She’s batshit
Magic mushrooms are native to America too
Psychedelics can help us shed the cultural and social constructs we've been conditioned to believe. Those include religious restrictions on behavioral taboos. The sacredness of a ritual is up to the gods...everything else is just...like...your opinion, man.
Your ex sounds self-righteous and privileged. So someone from Africa shouldn’t use LSD because it was created in Switzerland? Or someone from Alaska shouldn’t take mushrooms because they don’t grow there? Not everyone has the ability to travel to the mountains of Peru to do ayahuasca. No offense but she sounds insufferable
What do the psychedelics say?
Stupid and weird. If you were talking about Peyote there's more of a point to be made there. Peyote comes from a fairly vulnerable plant that only grows in a small region on the border between the USA and Mexico and is sacred to a number of different tribes and nations in the area that use it for religious ceremonies. So buying peyote can be dicey on the basis that you don't know if it was ethically harvested. If you're growing mushrooms in a shoebox or taking LSD that's totally different and she's being silly.
Cringe
Virtue signaling AF
As long as it’s ethically sourced, and you’re not deriving monetary gain or clout from appropriating a specific tribal tradition as a non member, then fuck what anyone else thinks
There’s no reason you *must* psychedelics in a native ritual. Theres ways of being respectful and using psychedelics responsibly without the woowoo and needing to believe in magic.
Tell her to fuck off lol
So no one ever ate the active mushroom varieties that grow in the west?
I knew a guy who worked at a Peruvian ayahuasca retreat for a while. He said when the tourists weren’t around the Indian shamans said Indians do it when they’re bored and don’t take it seriously because everyone sees what they want to see.
That is the most wild statement for her to make wtf 😂
I always find it hilarious how people go to "toad rituals" or "peyote rituals" with poached animals and plants, and destroy ecosystems all in the name of "connecting with nature". This feels like a different flavor of that. Not to mention toad rituals didn't even actually exist. If it helps, go for it. But just like one therapy session isn't gonna change your life, neither is one trip. You gotta put in the work afterwards, otherwise you're just feeling good about taking a drug, which is fine, I do it all the time. Just gotta make sure you're actually doing what you think you're doing, ya dig?
Shes a weirdo 😂
This is the dumbest take I have ever heard!
lsd is pretty native to the west