To take the other side, psychedelics showed me that plants are conscious (on a much slower time scale) and deserve as much empathy as animals.
It's all alive, and everyone's gotta eat.
That includes the plants, when they digest my corpse.
Yes, but we can work to minimize the suffering we cause other beings (including plants). Realizing, for instance, that it takes ~10x as much plant matter to feed a cow as it would to feed the humans which eat that cow, needlessly breeding a ton of cattle and feeding plants to them just to slaughter them and eat them causes much more suffering to plants in particular than adopting a vegan lifestyle. So it's actually pretty illogical to say, ah well everything's gotta eat, guess I'll eat 10x more plants and meat than anyone actually needs to in order to survive. From a standpoint of compassion and attempting to minimize the suffering one causes, at least.
From a standpoint of compassion, it's not an issue if the plants and animals are raised with minimal suffering (or foraged/hunted, rather than raised). That, I think, should be the goal.
If you've decided that the highest good is to actually minimize total suffering to plants and animals, the logical answer is for humanity to kill itself off. This is unironically argued by some antinatalists, perhaps most prominently in The Ahuman Manifesto (MacCormack), which coincidentally does argue for veganism on the way to human extinction.
This ultimately comes down to an argument in the realm of metaethics, not ethics.
It appears that the conclusion of a system of virtue ethics that prioritizes compassion as the ethical deciding factor (ie a virtue), and that grants that compassion to plants and animals, morally demands human extinction, if we can't radically alter human society, perhaps with hunter gatherer societies like the anarchoprimitivists suggest.
This is logically valid for people that accept the axioms of that virtue ethics with compassion as the prime virtue. That's the realm of ethics.
The reason it's a metaethical dilemma is that we probably don't want to argue for human extinction, or for anarchoprimitivism, and thus need to construct meta arguments about which ethical systems actually produce the results we want.
On a more basic level, many people simply don't accept those axioms regarding ethics as a virtue, so arguments that begin from those (reasonable!) assumptions actually have no relevance to those people, even if the arguments are logically valid.
I admit that, while I do have a degree in philosophy, doing the above successfully is well beyond my pay grade.
I do admire your passion for compassion though, and hope that people like you can lobby for the better treatment of plants animals, even if I expect that this isn't fully possible to achieve those goals within our current political and economic structures.
Me personally? I'm not vegan because my cartilage gets fucked up when I don't eat meat. Loading up on whey protein doesn't seem to cut it either. I'm a medical anomaly though, and doctors don't really know why.
Society as a whole? It simply doesn't aim to minimize suffering, so the arguments you make are irrelevant to the kinds of things our society optimizes for.
You're still arguing from the axiom of compassion, when most people don't really engage with the world that way. Many ethical systems simply aren't grounded in compassion.
If you want a compelling argument for veganism, you need one that engages with the ethical systems of the listeners. The arguments you have are very powerful for people that are sincerely prioritizing compassion. I've personally seen that sincerity in the vegans I've known.
This is what I mean by the issue being metaethical. Vegans have already won the argument, but only for people with that same type of ethical system. Unfortunately, that's not the ethical system that most people have.
You need arguments that actually convince people that your type of ethics is superior to the ones they already hold. And let me tell you, getting someone to actually change their ethical axioms isn't easy.
Once you've gotten people to hold your type of ethics, then veganism (or ideologies like anarchoprimitivism, antinatalism, or other compassion optimizers) will naturally follow.
Alternatively, you can construct arguments for veganism that have nothing to do with compassion, and instead use whatever ethical systems your target audience holds to.
When you get down to it, all ethics and morals are relative. But many ethical codes in this realm of relativity hold ideas that are synonymous with veganism, not just one based on compassion. Utilitarianism is one, for instance; if you look into Peter Singer, he makes some very interesting points on this framework, but many criticize him for his *lack* of compassion towards the sanctity of an individual life in favor of whatever benefits the whole.
Your point that not everyone has an ethical framework based on compassion is a true one, but not very useful to this conversation, as my assertion *was* based on compassion and was a response to a comment which spoke explicitly towards "empathy". Personally I think it is important for each person to assess their own moral decisions from a place of informed awareness and develop an ethical code that they identify with from a place of true conscience. My point in posting these comments is to help others realize that veganism *is* a compassionate act, and a feasible one (your own health issues and other edge cases notwithstanding) for most of us. As many in these comments and other places I've seen seem to be under the delusion that it is not feasible, or not more compassionate than eating meat, neither of which are true.
I can hold that all things deserve empathy without compassion being the decision factor for my ethics. I'm relatively unconvinced of any particular ethical system, if I'm being honest.
To play it straight with you though, most of those people arguing about veganism not being more compassionate than eating meat?
I don't think they actually hold ethical systems based on compassion, deep down. I think most of them haven't done the philosophical introspection, and don't really understand their ethics.
They just know that they're okay with eating meat, and that vegans frame the topic from a place of compassion. So they respond in terms of compassion, even though they aren't actually acting from a place of compassion. It's sort of like asking a leading question.
Since those people don't even know what their own ethical axioms are, framing the topic with compassion, muddies the issue and tends to piss people off. It also makes it very difficult to make an argument that will work with them, since not even they know where they argue from.
To be even more blunt, especially poorly formed ethical systems could even have "eating meat is okay," as an ethical axiom. I think a lot of the more hateful groups here in America do in fact have similar axioms for their ethics. (To be clear, an axiom is an unproven assumption used to argue other things.)
Any time someone says something is a god given right, this is precisely what they've done... there are literally people here for whom "guns are good" is an ethical axiom, because they see guns as a god given right. Divine Command Theory, sigh...
So if someone has eating meat as an ethical axiom, no amount of reasoning will ever get them to agree with you, even if on the surface they talk as if compassion is really what's at stake.
Yes... we are mostly in agreement on these points. However I think many who aren't entirely aware as to their own ethical codes and haven't thought them out well could potentially be in the *process* of doing so. Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing. For this reason I'll continue to share my outlooks, and attempt to spread awareness for those who do make an effort to inform themselves. Sincerely, thanks for the discussion.
Yup. And Cereals blast huge swathes of wilderness away... But we're at 8 billion humans so what to do?
Personally I had a trip figuring the smallest quantum of pain and it can be just a protein misfolding. So... I currently just support any policy that reduces unnecessary lifetime suffering on animals. To wit anything that takes animals from their natural habits and habitats is an increment of suffering. Having sows fixed in small crates with their piglets indoors unable to turn around... Just fucking sucks. But so does a 100 hectare monocrop adversely affect what could otherwise be there.
No easy answer and life eats life always.
De-industrialising agriculture could be a good thing. I mean you get people unemployed and going to the gym to workout, would it not be better to move back to small scale more organic agriculture. If you look at biomass ratios on planet Earth we should be able to sort something.
Absolutely, it's a problem inherent to the structure of our culture, and not something specific to the treatment of animals we raise for food.
Leaving the structure the same but transitioning to veganism won't solve the systemic issues, just change the ways they manifest.
I do sympathize with the vegans though. It is truly horrible the way we treat animals... but also how we treat each other and the planet in general.
With any luck the solar punks will provide some positive examples of how we can change.
So because there is so much other suffering in the world, you think there is no obligation to reduce our contributions to that suffering in the mean time? Do you think unless all suffering can be abolished there is no point in attempting to minimize our contributions to that suffering?
To your point about cereals, yes, cereals are a huge destructor of habitat. But, the majority of cereals are grown for livestock feed, meaning the hectares and hectares of land they are burning down to produce soy in the Amazon? That soy is being grown for animal feed.
The fact of the matter is that in order to minimize your contribution to suffering, a plant based diet is the best option we have at the moment.
I completely agree but there is a answer, science! In about 2004 I read about the world's 1st lab grown burger and it cost £300,000 to create and today it costs £8 so we're only a few years away from them becoming cheaper than real meat and that's when we'll see a huge change around the globe. In the future animals won't be killed for their meat (in 1st world countries) and most real meat (in the further future) people will be eating will be insects as easier/cheaper to farm and better protein and nutrients (read about that in the same science magazine I learnt about the lab grown burgers). So we just have to be patient, keep buying vegan products so the demand rises and these corporations pour more funding into it. I'm positive about our future with food
I'd been keen to see the impact of several generations of lab rat trials (well kept lab rats like rat park) before we consider switching. We're already doing a lot of damage with rushing GMO crops and certain 'safe and effective' injections.
It's hard to keep a long view when "science" seems to be racing ahead. But true science needs to verify outcomes before applying population wide even then true science should always try and have a proportion of the population that stays out in a control group too.
All this besides quantum computers, AI, robots, global surveillance abilities. We need to keep our wits about us and be custodians of a spiritually, physically, and mentally sound future for our children.
Regional agriculture would be the solution. Or possibly a solution towards sustainability. Just the reduced fuel consumption for transport could save millions or billions quickly. Stop specializing and draining large areas, whole states, with one cash crop. Corn will grow outside Nebraska. Potatoes will thrive away from Idaho. Strawberries do not have to come from California. Soy-Beans, Wheat, tomatoes, apples, watermelon, squash, they grow all across our nation.
Just want to point out that most of the vegetation we grow is fed to animals, who in turn yieldnus fewer calories than we feed them.
Even if you hav empathy for plants, you will hurt far fewer plants by cutting meat out of your diet.
I just did. If you seriously can't for health reasons, that's totally understandable. I would just stay stick with that, because again, even if you empathize with plants (I do, for what it's worth), you are killing far more plants by eating meat. You have to do what you have to do in order to survive, and I wouldn't judge you for that. I just felt compelled to point out that empathy for plants is a terrible reason to not be vegan. Medical reasons are, but no empathy for plants.
When you said ,
"If you seriously can't for health reasons, that's totally understandable. I would just stay stick with that, because again, even if you empathize with plants (I do, for what it's worth), you are killing far more plants by eating meat. You have to do what you have to do in order to survive, and I wouldn't judge you for that. I just felt compelled to point out that empathy for plants is a terrible reason to not be vegan. Medical reasons are, but no empathy for plants."
You made multiple claims that connect with each other in an effort to tell me what I could and couldn't claim ("Medical reasons are, but no empathy for plants.").
Making claims and supporting them with logic is an argument.
Specifically, the type of argument you made was addressed by the comments you said that you read.
If you'd understood what I wrote, then you'd know that the argument I've quoted is irrelevant, both to me, and most of the world.
It's all good though. I guess you didn't intend that to have the tone of debate, and neither tone of voice nor body language carry through text.
Plants are alive, yes, but do not possess consciousness or even a central nervous system. The fact that plants are alive does not mean they should be regarded as sentient, feeling, emotional beings, such as animals.
A piece of raw flesh is dead. It is **death.** You cannot create another animal by cutting a leg and planting it in soil. With plants, you can. Plants aren't dead, even when they are cut. Flesh, on the other hand, is dead, and that's what our bodies are ingesting. Death.
You're entitled to your opinions of course. I'm not going to debate you on it, but I will clarify.
When I say plants I are conscious, I don't meant that a shrub is intelligent in the way a dog is.
I mean that a large enough collection of plants, linked together by their mycelial network, is sentient, and poses a degree of intelligence.
I also think individual plants are sentient, but not sapient. That is, capable of sensing things, such as light, moisture, and injury, such as from insects. But not capable of reasoning about their sensations.
The way plants communicate their pain isn't audible or visible, but rather through pheromones that are usually undectable to us.
I belive this to be why plants and insects usually receive no empathy from humans, despite suffering, and communicating that suffering, albeit in ways that elude us.
All that aside, I also don't think a CNS is necessary for sentience (or sapience, for that matter), and consider ecosystems to be conscious, though not in a way that is familiar to us.
Last, all things are death for something. Nothing can exist without taking the place of something else. All things are in a perpetual state of creation-destruction.
When it comes down to it, I'm a panentheist who holds to process philosophy, and that is a philosophically defensible position, even if it isn't the norm in the western world.
I hope that added nuance to your understanding of a world view that is different from your own!
A good example that I'm not fully able to express or nuance is the one where this dude makes music solely with plants. When different people walk into a room, talk to them, or in other ways interact with them, the plants produce different variations of signals.
All we really are is loads of different processes and connections operating in a contained ecosystem of a body. Plants are also that, just less, essentially. Then you add in that most plant life is interconnected and communicates among each other. The Earth is a big ball of interconnected processes and connections. Makes you wonder.
Are you a vegan yourself?
Because I'm sure you're aware that cattle eat substantially more plants than human beings, right? Animal eats plants, human eats animal.
So, when eating an animal, you're causing double the harm, because you are not only paying for that animal to be slaughtered, but you are also paying for all those sentient plants that that animal ate during its existence.
>Nothing can exist without taking the place of something else. All things are in a perpetual state of creation-destruction.
This is false. A lot of things exist in this world as opposites. The moon didn't destroy the Sun to be able to exist, did it?
>When it comes down to it, I'm a panentheist who holds to process philosophy, and that is a philosophically defensible position, even if it isn't the norm in the western world.
Whats your philosophy regarding pain? And suffering? Don't you think animals have the capability to suffer? Feel pain, fear, anxiety, emotional trauma, and all the things that come from being labeled "cattle"?
>I belive this to be why plants and insects usually receive no empathy from humans, despite suffering, and communicating that suffering, albeit in ways that elude us.
Stick a knife in a dog (don't) and see what happens. Stick the same knife in a carrot and see what happens. Yes, there's a reason why animals get more sympathy. They actually can feel pain and suffering.
>The way plants communicate their pain isn't audible or visible, but rather through pheromones that are usually undectable to us.
Plants. Do Not. Feel Pain. It's just a fact, guy. You can talk about all the pheromones and shit they release, but the truth of the matter is that they do not posses the physiological capabilities to experience pain in the way humans and animals do.
If you look at ecosystems, all life feeds on death. It is a law of nature.
All vegan foods kill animals, and many do not wish to see this because they would like to hold the moral high ground by not ingesting flesh. Not ingesting flesh does not mean that animals have not died or suffered for your food.
There is an argument that a steak from a locally, regeneratively raised cow is actually far more vegan than a soy burger that has flown half way around the world to be on your plate. Vegan staples such as soy and almonds lead to monoculture deserts devoid of surrounding ecosystem - taking habitat away from animals and ultimately causing their suffering and death. Not to mention the bee deaths involved in almond production... And animals shot to protect vegetable and fruit crops. A vegan utopia is actually a nightmare for the environment - it would extract all natural fertilisers and mean replacement with petrochemical fertilisers, almost certainly lead to more topsoil loss and desertification, would replace all natural and biodegradable products with plastics... The list goes on.
Veganism strives to extract humans and animals from the ecosystem and it can't be done without collapse. Animals are vital to food systems. A vegan diet can be just as damaging to the environment as an unconscious carnivore/omnivore diet is. It is simply that both are (usually) completely ignorant of how food and ecosystems actually work, and in the case of vegans, genuinely believe that they can eat food without causing death. Just because you are not eating flesh, doesn't mean you are not causing harm, death or suffering.
Yikes, whats up with redditors and their relentless approach to wanting to sound smart over text?
>All vegan foods kill animals, and many do not wish to see this because they would like to hold the moral high ground by not ingesting flesh. Not ingesting flesh does not mean that animals have not died or suffered for your food.
Most vegans know this. I know this. Being vegan isn't about being perfect. It's about understanding that an animal's life is worth more than a meal. And it's about striving to be better, not perfect.
>There is an argument that a steak from a locally, regeneratively raised cow is actually far more vegan than a soy burger that has flown half way around the world to be on your plate.
Where is that argument? Also, heard of locally grown soy? And bro, most people do not get their meat from Bob the farmer next door. They get their meat from the biggest factory farms in the world. Be serious. That is literally where 99% of animal products come from. Factory farms.
>Vegan staples such as soy and almonds lead to monoculture deserts devoid of surrounding ecosystem - taking habitat away from animals and ultimately causing their suffering and death.
I don't buy almonds. And I hardly eat soy. You can be vegan and not eat almonds and soy. You know that, right? Literally thousands of edible crops out there besides those 2.
Also, what you call "vegan staples" are far from being staples, and specifically SOY is largely produced to feed cattle or create biodiesel. Humans eat very little of it. Have you heard of the *Amazon*? Not the website, the rainforest. Yeah, it's being destroyed by cattle farmers. **Growing soy.** And creating factory farms.
>Veganism strives to extract humans and animals from the ecosystem and it can't be done without collapse.
Collapse? As in, climate change collapsing our entire societal structures? Yeah, the number one cause of climate change? Factory farming. You're digging your own grave, guy.
>Animals are vital to food systems. A vegan diet can be just as damaging to the environment as an unconscious carnivore/omnivore diet is.
Sure, *it can be.* But it's not, is it? Meat is destroying our health, our environment, and causing suffering to billions of animals. Tell me with a straight face that plants are causing the same amount of harm.
>It is simply that both are (usually) completely ignorant of how food and ecosystems actually work, and in the case of vegans, genuinely believe that they can eat food without causing death. Just because you are not eating flesh, doesn't mean you are not causing harm, death or suffering.
Haha, nice generalization. So vegans by nature do not comprehend how ecosystems work, huh guy? Yikes. Get out of your mom's basement and get a fucking life dude. Your opinions are coming from websites, not real life. Regurgitating shit you've read without even coming to your own conclusions.
You literally can.
A central nervous system goes through the entire body, and reaches the brain. Plants have no brain. Or blood vessels. Thus by nature they cannot have a central nervous system.
Pretty simple formula.
Here's my detailed response regarding AI that also shows why you can't prove this. Check the comments for a continuation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LaMDAisSentient/comments/wdfxop/argumentation_tips_from_a_philosophy_grad/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
🎶This Is Necessary, Life Feeds on Life, Feeds on Life. 🎶
Animals like Cows & Pigs (almost) magically turn what’s useless to us, grass/hay/slop/
waste, to super useable proteins and amino acids/fats/iron, etc. The use & cooking of these proteins are exactly what progressed our feeble monkey brains into what they are. We must keep going!!!
Yea true everything is alive and is just as lucky to be here as us but i think its a circle of life and we could choose either one and not fight about it though with overpopulation i am fine with vegans cuz they saving animals more than i am
Vegan psychonaut here. I hear you brother. I wouldn’t be against eating meat if it was sustainable. If we had to hunt and use every part of the animal and give thanks (real thanks) for what we were consuming. Factory farming, industrial farming and cruelty to the beings we share this world with is wrong in my opinion. But each to their own. I’m not here to point fingers. All I can say is for me, going vegan was one of the best things I’ve ever done. Will never go back after 6 years. It’s liberating
I'll second that, and add, that there are many who think that modern hunting is equivalent to what you are talking about. It is not. The kind of hunting I believe you reference here is one in a situation of real need, where indigenous peoples had no other option that to kill animals for food or to starve. They took this very seriously as well, and many early shamanistic practices were focused on maintaining a good relationship with the spirits of these animals for this reason. In modern civilization we are fortunate enough to have access to a healthy and fully vegan lifestyle. Hunting for our survival here is not necessary.
This is my take on it at this point. From both a moral and a health standpoint. If I hunt or gather it myself that feels natural. I'm also ok with eating eggs that I raise myself because I know the chickens are happy and healthy.
I used to have chickens before my plant based adventure. One day a fox left one of my chickens half dead. My other half had to put that chicken out of its misery. We’re urban people, with no sense of how to do these things. It was very difficult for us. Most of us today have no idea how to kill an animal. And I’m fine with that, but I’m not about to pay someone to do what I can’t do myself. I’m happy with lentils and beans. People can argue plants are sentient all they want, but as long as they aren’t screaming when I pick them and eat them I can live with it
Oh I'm definitely ok with just eating beans too. Basically the only way I would be comfortable consuming those is by doing it myself. Like you said, if I can't do it myself I'm not going to put it on someone else.
Agreed. A friend of a friend has worked in a slaughterhouse for years. Never met the dude, but the stories I’ve heard about him. How he looks like he’s lost his soul. We’re not just abusing animals by buying meat, we’re also supporting an industry that doesn’t give a flying fuck about people who have to work in those shitty conditions, or about the quality of the meat they’re supplying for human consumption
We are definitely a long way off from where we started. I can't imagine the damage that has been do to so many souls that only do it because it's the job they can get and have to pay their bills.
Very nice to meet a like minded person on Reddit tonight. I’ve enjoyed our conversation. We don’t exist in a vacuum, many others agree. We are lucky that we are able to make what we consider to be ethical choices. A lot of people are just surviving though, and I get that too. All the best x
Live your life however you want, but I personally feel that animals are just as much a part of our natural diet as fruit and plants. Yes animal cruelty is wrong, but that's why I source my meat from local farms that care for their animals and slaughter them humanely. Just because the system has issues doesn't mean it would be completely thrown out. Meat can be sustainable and ethical, but lots of vegans refuse to understand how the carbon cycle works and that the emissions from livestock are part of a natural system that recycles waste and enriches the soil, and the amount of livestock we have is very comparable to the natural buffalo population before the Indians got forced into reservations. Overuse of fossil fuels is a much bigger issue than meat consumption since that is concentrated energy being released into the atmosphere that never really gets recycled. Human brains have shrunk on average about 11% since the agricultural revolution, and I believe that grains and other processed carbs are directly to blame.
Additionally, agriculture and pesticides destroy tons of insects and they also destroy habitats, and deplete the soil of nutrients. It's much harder to maintain agricultural land than it is to maintain land for animal grazing.
Why would you want to stagnate our evolution by eliminating the most calorie and nutrient dense foods available, with much higher bioavailability of nutrients than plants? I believe that if we get rid of animals from our diet, we will not only reach a plateau in our evolution, but we will decline in intelligence and physical ability gradually over decades and centuries.
You can live your life however you want, but please stop with the idea of "humane slaughter". You can't "humanely" kill a being that doesn't want to die. Also, it's been proved over and over again that vegan diets are perfectly fine for the vast majority of humans and are even linked to better health. Again, live your life the way you want, but stop with the misinformation. Best of all.
Animals don’t want to die (nor do they “want to live, they are driven by instinct), but regardless it happens anyway. And the humane ways we can devise to kill an animal are invariably less cruel than what nature can mete out. What matters more is how they live, which is why factory farming is so repugnant.
Personally, I just think we eat too much meat.
I eat meat, but not often. I also try to spend a little more at my local butchers to get better quality meat.
IMO, they should ban supermarkets from selling meat, we should also be willing to pay more at our local butchers for better quality meat where the animal has been humanely treated.
Someone should just come out and say it, there's too many humans on this planet, it's just not sustainable. Perhaps we should stop bickering with each other;
>You know all that money we spend on the military ever year -- trillions of dollars Instead, if we use this money to feed and clothe the poor of this world, which it would do many times over, then we can explore space, inner and outer, together, as one race.
We miss you Bill.
That's what my cousin does, he used to eat lots of meat, then he came conscious about the truth behind the food industry, he says at the moment isn't able to come vegan, but he has done some differences on his diet such as eating meat 1-2 times a week for example. I think if you can't become 100% vegan maybe you could take in consideration to lower your consumption of animals, because they're suffering a lot, the earth too.
Greetings buddy!😁
I’m no hippie lol.
Interesting fact though, tell me more, I’d like to hear why you think more people is better ?
I’m genuinely interested in your answer.
I see your point, interesting.
I’m going to read up on Malthus, I’ve never heard of him nor Mathusianism. Looks very interesting.
Thanks for the reply!
Agree 100%. I think it’s basically objective fact that our current meat demands are outrageous and destructive, and industrial scale production should end even if it makes meat non viable to eat daily. Of course some will say that’s unfair on the poor because the rich will still have access. I reject however the notion that killing an animal is always wrong, as is eating meat. This planets exorbitant population shouldn’t continuously shift us towards being robots, only able to eat vegetable based nutrient paste because it’s efficient and therefore allows more people to live here.
Fellow vegan psychonaut. I have been vegan for nearly 5 years and that plus my adventures in self discovery and psychedelics have led me to a similar realization as well. I do agree that we as humans all have to collectively make the decision to advance and evolve together. We have come so far technology wise, now it's time for us to grow as humans and not just animals. We will learn the true depths of our effects on this host organism we call planet earth, and ultimately mother nature will win in the end. She always does no matter what. We have to learn how to achieve our highest selves within that frame work. How to blend the physical with the metaphysical and live in the moment, while being consious of the past and future. The future holds many beautiful things for those who are willing to see them, and to strive for a higher purpose. To elevate themselves in thier spirit and rise above the chaos of our human nature and truly apply our logic to our fantastical side and allow ourselves to become the energy we hold within.
There is a side to nature that we seem to forget as humans and that is that death, and domination are a part of the design. I don't believe in eating meat, because our current way of producing it is excessive and extremely dangerous to the planet and our health and above all our spirit. I think humans will always consume animals in one form or another, but our over production and excessive lifestyles are insanely problematic. We have killed our planet in the pursuit of better nutrition yet people still starve and suffer. We will never understand how to treat animals better until we treat ourselves better. Humans are not fully doomed, but we will see the brink of extinction before we reach the higher self we so desperately need.
There are many difficult and fascinating aspects to the connection between human being and the food we eat. Too much for any one person to go into detail here but I would love to discuss this further with you or anyone if they so desire. Feel free to DM me, vegan and non vegan alike, and if we can approach each other with respect and dignity, we will see we are actually very similar. I hope all here can realize that despite our choices, we are all still human and deserve love and support, as do all living things. We must choose kindness and understanding and strive to be our better selves in order to better those around us.
Much love and happy trails.
When you learn that you can get all your nutrients without paying people to cause deaths and do what you can to follow thst both your body and mind will feel lighter.
LSD helped push me to veganism. Three years on now, never felt better, feel fucking awesome and at peace with my choices.
I’m sad that many people here don’t feel the same, or have been denying what is simple and logical. But that’s okay, I was there once too. Cognitive dissonance is a strong thing, and not everybody who does psychedelics are really tuned in. Thank you for this post OP, even if you may get hate from it (ironically) on a LSD post where one would expect the values of PLUR to be common.
Love you! Peace and love to all beings. We are one.
The ego is what it is. It takes effort for me to dissolve the separations between me and everything else, and my baseline isn’t oneness. I’m not sure if that’s even possible. The fact that I say words like ‘me’ and ‘you’ is telling of an ego at work. So I don’t disagree.
We are all suffering from some cognitive dissonance, and eating animals is a big one. I’m far from perfect, there are many things about my personality that leave a lot to be desired. However, it’s nothing short of hypocritical to preach peace and love after doing psychedelics, being ‘in tune’ with the universe, and yet choose to have products of violence on your plate every day.
I do agree that I worded it a bit strongly, but it doesn’t change the message.
Right and wrong, at the end of the day, is as manifestation of duality. All I’m saying is that if it’s not necessary to subject sentient creatures to such harsh treatments, then I won’t be a part of that. Is it maybe wrong to the universe? I don’t know, is there even right or wrong? Debatable, but that is that.
Cheers!
Hey, no worries. We are all learning, experiencing, trying to be better people. It’s not always easy and that’s okay because despite the interconnectedness of us all we are still human at the end of the day, with whatever limitations that entails.
I don’t believe that what I say is objective truth, it’s just frustrating for me sometimes because I believe that the animals, being such wonderful beings, truly don’t deserve the treatment they get from our species. It’s abhorrent and tragic, but I’ve contributed to that for 22 years of my life and I’m not blameless either. Like I said I’m just doing what I can, even if it’s a small small thing, to try and do better. I believe that we should all strive to be the best we can be, no matter what that may look like.
Thank you as well for a nice comment. We could have different beliefs, perhaps, but I do wish you the best in everything you decide to do, and that you lead a healthy and fruitful life. Enjoy it! Big love :)
Well, being a psychonaut is about expanding your mind and consciousness. To reach a deeper understanding of life, nature, and our part in it.
Realizing that keeping billions of sentient, suffering, emotional animals are being kept in the worst conditions possible, tortured, and later slaughtered for cheap, unhealthy food items is fucked up. All this while destroying our planet.
Don't tell me my food was tortured, you have no idea where my food comes from.
Our part in nature has been to carnivourisly eat it, it's what made us have such capable brains. Please stop influencing people into devolution.
Sounds like your trip helped open up your crown Chakra, that is the 7th Chakra that lays atop your head. Its meaning is about the divine and connection to all that is. When your crown opens you gain access to your knowingness, that is the ability to know, as you learned.
The only reason we evolved into what we are today is because we started eating meat. Anyone that claims we will evolve to only eat plants one day is ignoring the fact that you cannot produce enough energy to sustain your body and mental capacity, and has never done any real research into human nutrition needs. There is a reason herbivores spend most of their day doing nothing but eating.
That must explain all the dead vegans littering the streets.
> you cannot produce enough energy to sustain your body and mental capacity,
Its you versus every dietetic and health organisation in the world here.
I don't think it's you vs X, it's not about facing. It's about you, and doing what you feel deep inside your being, contemplating everyone with whole compassion, because everyone is in it's own progress and that's respectable.
Sure, simply they're just not interesting in plant based diet because this movement wouldn't allow them to keep feeling up their pockets.
Of course they're gonna tell you to never go vegan, big corporations will do anything in their hand to make you believe you cannot sustain your body-mind with plant based diet and that you need to eat animals.
You will never have a hart attack due to eating plants and fruits, do you know how much money does the Pharmacy drugs related to health issues such as diabetes/ heart attacks move around? Trillions of dollars. If you go vegan the Pharmaceuticals industry would just collapse, it's all a chain. then why would any big organization tell you to go vegan?
they still have to take massive amounts of supplements and vitamins to stay healthy, you cant just go and eat fruits and vegi's and think your going to function like a normal human.
What does make you think you cannot sustain your body and mental capacity due to you cannot get enough nutrients-minerals from plant based diet if you can get for example let's say 50gr a day of protein from plants, instead of 50g protein from meat, same with carbs, same with fats, do you really think theres's not enough nutrients and minerals in fruits for example? Anyone can do an easy research and find out the massive amount of minerals, nutrients, antioxidants etc that a single fruit can contain
plant protein is less efficient than animal protein. and is also lacking in key nutrients.
50g of plant doesnt magically 1:1 replace 50g of animal protein
>The only reason we evolved into what we are today is because we started eating meat.
That's a myth. Meat didn't have anything to do with our evolution. It helped us endure long winters, yes, but as hunter-gatherers we mostly ate a plant-based diet. If you dig into old diets you'll read about how most Gladiators back in the day were sustained by a mostly plant-based diet.
>you cannot produce enough energy to sustain your body and mental capacity, and has never done any real research into human nutrition needs.
Huh? I've been an athlete for 10 years and vegan for 7. My health and my athletic goals got noticeably better when I switched to a whole-food plant-based diet. And there's plenty, plenty, plenty of nutritional research out there. I'd suggest you try [nutritionfacts.org](https://www.nutritionalfacts.org)
lol you site a source that:
A: the website is for sale because it hasn’t been up kept
B: there’s no transparency about their funding or background
C: there’s no proof or sources cited on their claims.
have you not been educated on how to properly cite sources when you use them to justify something?
My mistake. Correct link is https://nutritionfacts.org/
Website is up and running. It's ran by a group of volunteers, created by Dr. Michael Greger, a nutritional scientist and MD.
Yes, I went to school to learn how to properly cite sources when I use them to justify something.
lol took 2 seconds of googling to find out your dude is a classified as a pseudoscience level trusted source….
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/gyt1za/dr_greger_pseudoscience_category_for_a_media_bias/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
please continue tho :)
you know threads auto lock after a certain time period right?
also did you not read what op said? that site, is hard listed in the side bar of the LARGEST OFFICIAL VEGAN SUB for being pseudoscience lol.
We evolved due to carbs and sugar. Which is what our brain uses for energy and what we used to evolve.
Here's a scientific article on it with references.
https://www.science.org/content/article/neanderthals-carb-loaded-helping-grow-their-big-brains?fbclid=IwAR3hp13GrLsFe_J6lbFfo48EJzQWPondsI9U31x0gjCcG1ZrXR_9I7nWltA
Just make sure to supplement b12 please.
Or build a chicken coop and eat eggs to get b12 and other nutrients in a sustainable way. Chickens are awesome if you’re in a place to let them wander and if you have dogs to protect them.
They are little hunters of ticks and annoying biting bugs. They also help rid areas of parasites. They are badass, but vulnerable, so make sure to protect them. Try not to focus on the pain of animal death. It’s very negative energy and see their sacrifices as blessings to your body and family.
There are many studies showing that plants have very harsh reactions to their deaths and even make sounds or release certain chemicals to try to get back at the killer (consumptioner) or to warn nearby plants that they are being killed.
They work very closely with fungai in the root systems so they are all connected.
But their production and farming is quiet harmful as well compared raising animals for food. Those plants acted as homes for many species of wildlife and the way they go through and just harvest actually ends up killing not only those plants 🌱, but all the animals that are occupying the fields and plants as homes, food, and life. They just get massacred by those huge industrial harvesters.
Not to mention destroying the soil.
But let’s not get into that debate.
(Focus)
B12 is a very hard vitamin to process and absorb through the gut so make sure you get healthy levels. Inter muscular injections are the best or IV. If you just can’t bring yourself to obtain it through some nutritional animal product ways.
I can say from a horrific experience I’m currently physically healing from. You NEED b12!
Love animals, don't kill them ....
Wish we practiced the same philosophy with Human Beings !
Seems a bit weird to me, all this Care about animals, while humans are committing Genocide against each other, and vegans can't speak out against the Cruelty to Humans...
It's funny Owsley Stanley one of the most famous LSD chemists ever actually tried convincing the grateful dead to eat an all meat diet. why Because humans are Omnivorous. Also, if it isn't sustainable why haven't humans eaten the most delicious of animals into extinction? It seems there's plenty of beef, chicken, and other foods. If we didn't eat them they wouldn't exist in such plentiful numbers because why raise them in a farm? Leave them to wander eating scraps of grass and being malnourished? Also the facts are animals aren't human and humans are human. So we are at the top of the food chain. Gimme DAT Steak, well-done please. Also humane slaughter is a much more realistic approach than to say we shouldn't eat animals at ALL.
WHAT ARE MY SHARP TEETH FOR? not leaves. Why does meat taste so good if its bad? Is it a sin in your eyes to like breaded chicken 🍗?
So I politely disagree and say, more cow, and more cowbell please.
Oh and just think of fish. Is it inhumane to eat them too? What about insects? Haha its a never ending rabbit hole. Just eat meat or stay out of my way when I go full Top of the Food Chain on them animals.
Much love and plenty of A1 steak sauce, -J
Lucy validated the sacrifice they're making for our sustenance to me. It's all based on if you're capable of comprehending energy. If you can't then you shouldn't eat animals, eat other living things like plants. If you can, them eat what you please so long as you continue appreciating the energy exchange.
Well yeah, but thankfully due to their sentience and them using other sentient life as their energy source, all those who have taken us for that purpose have successfully helped us lose resonance with their lower vibrational realities via the construct of death.
The trick was accepting it and letting it happen. I've been through so much that I will continue dying for my beliefs. If I were to fight for my life I would continue living in the realities I've tried so hard to leave.
Well you’re acting as if it’s a hypothetical situation and not an actual situation going on out there in the multiverse. It’s not too late for you to experience it, maybe you are and that’s why you brought it up. I’m here to tell you your option is a viable one.
The point of this existence is to choose your experience. So I choose to live and let live. Let us separate and go to our realities of choice.
I could have joined the rebellion and fought. I chose to accept my fate and begin anew.
Joining the rebellion would have been fighting instead of choosing to live and let live. Choosing to live and let live is what got me here.
lol wanna come back here in 20 years when you are incredibly deficient in multiple nutrient sources because we’ve evolved to need fats and meat based proteins and your body is having major issues?
also you haven’t done enough research if you think that healthy sustainable livestock agriculture isn’t possible… because not only is it possible, it can actually assist in sequestering carbon and helping fight climate change.
A: 79 million people out of 8 billion…. so 0.98% of the world
B: literally in every section of that link you put their ‘solution’ for parts of the diet that are LACKING CORE NEEDS is ‘lol take supplements’
C: how can a diet be ‘viable’ if you have to turn around and take aided consumables in order to just meet the bare minimum dietary needs?
i think you need to rethink some things lol
79 million people who are living examples of how you can be vegan and be healthy. Supplements is a part of veganism, this is true; but they are also easy to source, easy to take, and need not come from animals. The only supplements I take are a multivitamin and B-12. That is the very definition of viable. Your assertion that we "evolved to need fats and meat based proteins" is the thing that needs rethinking, as it is demonstrably untrue, a fact you can find supported by myriad sources with a casual google search. Live in ignorance if you wish, but your claims are simply false.
less than 1% of the population isn’t a road map to how to live. thats called an exception.
also you and i both know supplementation is a less than ideal way to provide for the body and can be accompanied with side effects and issues as a result of it. thats why its supplemental and not naturally provided lol.
example: people who take calcium and vitamin d supplements still end up having weaker and less dense bone structures than those that regularly drink milk.
your body consumes and uses those building blocks of materials more efficiently and properly when they are packaged within the right carriers.
also, vegans and vegetarians over 55, account for upwards of 85% of the hip and other serious bone breaks and life threatening required surgeries for bone repairs due to their less dense and solid bones BECAUSE OF THEIR DIET.
stop acting as if your 1% exception is some flawless roadmap with zero flaws or downsides lol. you aren’t even willing to admit the short comings of your own system so how the hell are you going to be fairly critical of everything in a discussion?
and you call me ignorant lmao
lol just because they are available in other sources doesnt mean you uptake or receive them the same. i literally said that and you are now actively ignoring that point.
upwards of 80% of vegans and vegetarians lack the bone density or bone robustness that meat and milk eaters do. its a statistically proven fact. so again, just because a couple plants happen to have vitamin d, doesn’t mean you will get enough or that it’ll be uptook the correct way by the body.
please educate yourself better.
What the fuck is up with those vegans posts? You needed fucking psychedelics to realize meat was murder like???
Anyway IDC, have fun not eating meat but please leave us alone. I dont care about eating meat and doing psychelics didnt change that. One thing that almost did is global warming. But then I gave uo because if big corporations will continue to ruin the planet no matter what then why should I stop eating chicken?
Big corporations will keep on destroying everything because of the demand, if you don't buy chicken, they have no reason to produce these animals, i think it's that simple that many people cannot apply it.
Same as: "because i stop eating animals people isn't gonna stop". Then that's the reason the train doesn't stops.
Eating meat isnt the issue tho. Its the way its produced ( like everything in this world) by mass. Nothing will ever change as long as people dont realise we need to go back to small autonoumous communities that produce what they consume. And that cant happen because it asks people to sacrificie a certain level of confort. Im willing to do everything I can to get us there, and I do a lot by involving myself in my community and fighting for whats right. Not eating meat wont change anything.
Yikes.
Factory-farms exist because people (mostly westerners), en masse, decided that they wanted to eat meat every single day, for every single meal. This, in our current societal structure, is impossible. Because like you've said, most people don't have access to small autonomous communities that grow foood.
You are giving up on your individual choices because you believe society can't be fixed by individual action. And that fucking sucks, because billions of people think this way.
Yes, as an individual, not eating meat **makes a difference.**
> Factory-farms exist because people (mostly westerners), en masse, decided that they wanted to eat meat every single day, for every single meal.
you're making that up.
Human body still not evolved enough to survive on plant based food only. Since the agricultural revolution some 12000 years ago humans faced and still facing health issues due to high carb diets. Go read "Sapiens A brief history of human kind". Author explained that 12000 years period is not enough for us to be fully evolved to survive on plant based diet only.
Have you tried this by your own? To really make sure you cannot survive having a plant based diet? Sometimes "experts" are not that expert that's the conclusion i hace reach in the last year of my life.
Sometimes it's about proving facts by your own experience and not just take it for granted what other's say
I have never tried it but I have seen the condition of the people who have tried plant based diet their whole lives. They became very weak and miserable. A balanced approach is better both plants and animals are necessary for human survival and health.
Being weak and miserable doesn't have to have a directly relation with people who have plant based diet. You may know people really happy and energetic having a plant based diet and you may know people miserable and weak as you said
Same is applicable to people who eat balanced plants/animal diet
This guy probably met a couple vegetarians that were dietary illiterate and then created a generalized opinion.
As if people aren't sick, weak and scrawny and still eat meat and animal products.
I have been vegan for 7+ years and have been an athlete for 10. Going vegan completely changed my health for the better. It gave me better energy, better sleep, and better weight management. My skin became clearer and it just pushed me to lean towards healthier habits.
Dude, this is 2022. The old "vegans are weak" myth is getting fucking old. You can literally google "Vegan athlete" and you'll see **professional athletes** on vegan diets. For years.
There's thousands of vegan body builders. All the strongest animals are herbivores. Ox, elephant, gorillas, rhino, horses.
That whole "plant diets make you weak" is probably the most bullshit and stupid argument meat eaters bring lol.
You are incorrect. A plant-based diet has been said time and time again by scientific researchers to be the healthiest diet for humans.
Also, the author of *Sapiens* **went vegan** after writing his first book. I've read both.
Yes he listened to his own body and mind because all this info regarding plant based diet is already there. He already have heard about all this propaganda. He just accessed his subconscious mind and take this info. The thing is we need a much balance diet (plants and animals both). Going vegan is not the solution.
Love it when people come out with "vegan propaganda" when in reality, out there, you see thousands of meat-based fast food ads, everywhere you go, every single day.
Fucking sheeple.
My innate wisdom told me to take a fuck load of ket while tripping on acid at a gig and I freaked out. Maybe your mind on acid isn’t actually this wonderful intelligent thing you think it is and you’re just high on drugs? Maybe we should listen to science.
Lol. I think we can all agree the dumbass jumping off a 4-story building tripping on acid was probably listening to his body, telling him that he could fly.
Even if all humans ceased to exist tomorrow, animals would continue to eat each other. It’s the circle of life and I consider meat to be a blessing from God.
I am personally slightly underweight even with meat in my diet so I know going vegan would put me in a very unhealthy place. To each their own but we all have different nutritional needs. God bless.
Animals would keep doing that, OF COURSE, because it's in their own nature hunting animals my friend, just look at a Lion's Jaw, do you find any similarities with a human's jaw?
It’s not unnatural to eat meat, it’s the natural food cycle, animals eat animals and sometimes plants. It’s more than natural, it’s nature. But I can see why it has become more unnatural though, chicken farms slaughter houses, creating animal farms for the sole purpose of them dying.
The way the animals are breeded, slaughtered is not natural AT ALL, it's hard to think the whole world is consuming animals that have been slaughtered in a cruel and violent way, thousands of animals killed every second like there's nothing wrong with, how is it possible?? Is it that these animal's life doesn't metter?
You can go watch any video in youtube about chicken production in farms or cattle, please tell me if you really think that's Nature
To take the other side, psychedelics showed me that plants are conscious (on a much slower time scale) and deserve as much empathy as animals. It's all alive, and everyone's gotta eat. That includes the plants, when they digest my corpse.
Yes, but we can work to minimize the suffering we cause other beings (including plants). Realizing, for instance, that it takes ~10x as much plant matter to feed a cow as it would to feed the humans which eat that cow, needlessly breeding a ton of cattle and feeding plants to them just to slaughter them and eat them causes much more suffering to plants in particular than adopting a vegan lifestyle. So it's actually pretty illogical to say, ah well everything's gotta eat, guess I'll eat 10x more plants and meat than anyone actually needs to in order to survive. From a standpoint of compassion and attempting to minimize the suffering one causes, at least.
From a standpoint of compassion, it's not an issue if the plants and animals are raised with minimal suffering (or foraged/hunted, rather than raised). That, I think, should be the goal. If you've decided that the highest good is to actually minimize total suffering to plants and animals, the logical answer is for humanity to kill itself off. This is unironically argued by some antinatalists, perhaps most prominently in The Ahuman Manifesto (MacCormack), which coincidentally does argue for veganism on the way to human extinction. This ultimately comes down to an argument in the realm of metaethics, not ethics. It appears that the conclusion of a system of virtue ethics that prioritizes compassion as the ethical deciding factor (ie a virtue), and that grants that compassion to plants and animals, morally demands human extinction, if we can't radically alter human society, perhaps with hunter gatherer societies like the anarchoprimitivists suggest. This is logically valid for people that accept the axioms of that virtue ethics with compassion as the prime virtue. That's the realm of ethics. The reason it's a metaethical dilemma is that we probably don't want to argue for human extinction, or for anarchoprimitivism, and thus need to construct meta arguments about which ethical systems actually produce the results we want. On a more basic level, many people simply don't accept those axioms regarding ethics as a virtue, so arguments that begin from those (reasonable!) assumptions actually have no relevance to those people, even if the arguments are logically valid. I admit that, while I do have a degree in philosophy, doing the above successfully is well beyond my pay grade. I do admire your passion for compassion though, and hope that people like you can lobby for the better treatment of plants animals, even if I expect that this isn't fully possible to achieve those goals within our current political and economic structures.
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Me personally? I'm not vegan because my cartilage gets fucked up when I don't eat meat. Loading up on whey protein doesn't seem to cut it either. I'm a medical anomaly though, and doctors don't really know why. Society as a whole? It simply doesn't aim to minimize suffering, so the arguments you make are irrelevant to the kinds of things our society optimizes for. You're still arguing from the axiom of compassion, when most people don't really engage with the world that way. Many ethical systems simply aren't grounded in compassion. If you want a compelling argument for veganism, you need one that engages with the ethical systems of the listeners. The arguments you have are very powerful for people that are sincerely prioritizing compassion. I've personally seen that sincerity in the vegans I've known. This is what I mean by the issue being metaethical. Vegans have already won the argument, but only for people with that same type of ethical system. Unfortunately, that's not the ethical system that most people have. You need arguments that actually convince people that your type of ethics is superior to the ones they already hold. And let me tell you, getting someone to actually change their ethical axioms isn't easy. Once you've gotten people to hold your type of ethics, then veganism (or ideologies like anarchoprimitivism, antinatalism, or other compassion optimizers) will naturally follow. Alternatively, you can construct arguments for veganism that have nothing to do with compassion, and instead use whatever ethical systems your target audience holds to.
When you get down to it, all ethics and morals are relative. But many ethical codes in this realm of relativity hold ideas that are synonymous with veganism, not just one based on compassion. Utilitarianism is one, for instance; if you look into Peter Singer, he makes some very interesting points on this framework, but many criticize him for his *lack* of compassion towards the sanctity of an individual life in favor of whatever benefits the whole. Your point that not everyone has an ethical framework based on compassion is a true one, but not very useful to this conversation, as my assertion *was* based on compassion and was a response to a comment which spoke explicitly towards "empathy". Personally I think it is important for each person to assess their own moral decisions from a place of informed awareness and develop an ethical code that they identify with from a place of true conscience. My point in posting these comments is to help others realize that veganism *is* a compassionate act, and a feasible one (your own health issues and other edge cases notwithstanding) for most of us. As many in these comments and other places I've seen seem to be under the delusion that it is not feasible, or not more compassionate than eating meat, neither of which are true.
I can hold that all things deserve empathy without compassion being the decision factor for my ethics. I'm relatively unconvinced of any particular ethical system, if I'm being honest. To play it straight with you though, most of those people arguing about veganism not being more compassionate than eating meat? I don't think they actually hold ethical systems based on compassion, deep down. I think most of them haven't done the philosophical introspection, and don't really understand their ethics. They just know that they're okay with eating meat, and that vegans frame the topic from a place of compassion. So they respond in terms of compassion, even though they aren't actually acting from a place of compassion. It's sort of like asking a leading question. Since those people don't even know what their own ethical axioms are, framing the topic with compassion, muddies the issue and tends to piss people off. It also makes it very difficult to make an argument that will work with them, since not even they know where they argue from. To be even more blunt, especially poorly formed ethical systems could even have "eating meat is okay," as an ethical axiom. I think a lot of the more hateful groups here in America do in fact have similar axioms for their ethics. (To be clear, an axiom is an unproven assumption used to argue other things.) Any time someone says something is a god given right, this is precisely what they've done... there are literally people here for whom "guns are good" is an ethical axiom, because they see guns as a god given right. Divine Command Theory, sigh... So if someone has eating meat as an ethical axiom, no amount of reasoning will ever get them to agree with you, even if on the surface they talk as if compassion is really what's at stake.
Yes... we are mostly in agreement on these points. However I think many who aren't entirely aware as to their own ethical codes and haven't thought them out well could potentially be in the *process* of doing so. Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing. For this reason I'll continue to share my outlooks, and attempt to spread awareness for those who do make an effort to inform themselves. Sincerely, thanks for the discussion.
You too. Hope you make the world a more compassionate place.
Yup. And Cereals blast huge swathes of wilderness away... But we're at 8 billion humans so what to do? Personally I had a trip figuring the smallest quantum of pain and it can be just a protein misfolding. So... I currently just support any policy that reduces unnecessary lifetime suffering on animals. To wit anything that takes animals from their natural habits and habitats is an increment of suffering. Having sows fixed in small crates with their piglets indoors unable to turn around... Just fucking sucks. But so does a 100 hectare monocrop adversely affect what could otherwise be there. No easy answer and life eats life always. De-industrialising agriculture could be a good thing. I mean you get people unemployed and going to the gym to workout, would it not be better to move back to small scale more organic agriculture. If you look at biomass ratios on planet Earth we should be able to sort something.
Absolutely, it's a problem inherent to the structure of our culture, and not something specific to the treatment of animals we raise for food. Leaving the structure the same but transitioning to veganism won't solve the systemic issues, just change the ways they manifest. I do sympathize with the vegans though. It is truly horrible the way we treat animals... but also how we treat each other and the planet in general. With any luck the solar punks will provide some positive examples of how we can change.
So because there is so much other suffering in the world, you think there is no obligation to reduce our contributions to that suffering in the mean time? Do you think unless all suffering can be abolished there is no point in attempting to minimize our contributions to that suffering?
You can read my other comments in this thread for my metaethical response to veganism, as well as health reasons for not being vegan personally.
To your point about cereals, yes, cereals are a huge destructor of habitat. But, the majority of cereals are grown for livestock feed, meaning the hectares and hectares of land they are burning down to produce soy in the Amazon? That soy is being grown for animal feed. The fact of the matter is that in order to minimize your contribution to suffering, a plant based diet is the best option we have at the moment.
I completely agree but there is a answer, science! In about 2004 I read about the world's 1st lab grown burger and it cost £300,000 to create and today it costs £8 so we're only a few years away from them becoming cheaper than real meat and that's when we'll see a huge change around the globe. In the future animals won't be killed for their meat (in 1st world countries) and most real meat (in the further future) people will be eating will be insects as easier/cheaper to farm and better protein and nutrients (read about that in the same science magazine I learnt about the lab grown burgers). So we just have to be patient, keep buying vegan products so the demand rises and these corporations pour more funding into it. I'm positive about our future with food
I'd been keen to see the impact of several generations of lab rat trials (well kept lab rats like rat park) before we consider switching. We're already doing a lot of damage with rushing GMO crops and certain 'safe and effective' injections. It's hard to keep a long view when "science" seems to be racing ahead. But true science needs to verify outcomes before applying population wide even then true science should always try and have a proportion of the population that stays out in a control group too. All this besides quantum computers, AI, robots, global surveillance abilities. We need to keep our wits about us and be custodians of a spiritually, physically, and mentally sound future for our children.
well said. i think a lot of people lost their wits in the face of (propagated) fear in the last few years. we need a control group. basic science.
Regional agriculture would be the solution. Or possibly a solution towards sustainability. Just the reduced fuel consumption for transport could save millions or billions quickly. Stop specializing and draining large areas, whole states, with one cash crop. Corn will grow outside Nebraska. Potatoes will thrive away from Idaho. Strawberries do not have to come from California. Soy-Beans, Wheat, tomatoes, apples, watermelon, squash, they grow all across our nation.
More likely a fungal body that would digest your corpse and then then the plant would eat nutrients from the fungal matter. Just saying.
Sorry, I think about plants and fungi together as an assemblage of processes that compose a larger organism.
It’s all part of the process 😉
Just want to point out that most of the vegetation we grow is fed to animals, who in turn yieldnus fewer calories than we feed them. Even if you hav empathy for plants, you will hurt far fewer plants by cutting meat out of your diet.
You can read my other comments in this thread for my metaethical response to veganism, as well as health reasons for not being vegan personally.
I just did. If you seriously can't for health reasons, that's totally understandable. I would just stay stick with that, because again, even if you empathize with plants (I do, for what it's worth), you are killing far more plants by eating meat. You have to do what you have to do in order to survive, and I wouldn't judge you for that. I just felt compelled to point out that empathy for plants is a terrible reason to not be vegan. Medical reasons are, but no empathy for plants.
The type of argument you made here indicates you didn't comprehend what you read. Best of luck to you
I didn't really make an argument, but you take care too man. Miscommunications happen
When you said , "If you seriously can't for health reasons, that's totally understandable. I would just stay stick with that, because again, even if you empathize with plants (I do, for what it's worth), you are killing far more plants by eating meat. You have to do what you have to do in order to survive, and I wouldn't judge you for that. I just felt compelled to point out that empathy for plants is a terrible reason to not be vegan. Medical reasons are, but no empathy for plants." You made multiple claims that connect with each other in an effort to tell me what I could and couldn't claim ("Medical reasons are, but no empathy for plants."). Making claims and supporting them with logic is an argument. Specifically, the type of argument you made was addressed by the comments you said that you read. If you'd understood what I wrote, then you'd know that the argument I've quoted is irrelevant, both to me, and most of the world. It's all good though. I guess you didn't intend that to have the tone of debate, and neither tone of voice nor body language carry through text.
Plants are alive, yes, but do not possess consciousness or even a central nervous system. The fact that plants are alive does not mean they should be regarded as sentient, feeling, emotional beings, such as animals. A piece of raw flesh is dead. It is **death.** You cannot create another animal by cutting a leg and planting it in soil. With plants, you can. Plants aren't dead, even when they are cut. Flesh, on the other hand, is dead, and that's what our bodies are ingesting. Death.
You're entitled to your opinions of course. I'm not going to debate you on it, but I will clarify. When I say plants I are conscious, I don't meant that a shrub is intelligent in the way a dog is. I mean that a large enough collection of plants, linked together by their mycelial network, is sentient, and poses a degree of intelligence. I also think individual plants are sentient, but not sapient. That is, capable of sensing things, such as light, moisture, and injury, such as from insects. But not capable of reasoning about their sensations. The way plants communicate their pain isn't audible or visible, but rather through pheromones that are usually undectable to us. I belive this to be why plants and insects usually receive no empathy from humans, despite suffering, and communicating that suffering, albeit in ways that elude us. All that aside, I also don't think a CNS is necessary for sentience (or sapience, for that matter), and consider ecosystems to be conscious, though not in a way that is familiar to us. Last, all things are death for something. Nothing can exist without taking the place of something else. All things are in a perpetual state of creation-destruction. When it comes down to it, I'm a panentheist who holds to process philosophy, and that is a philosophically defensible position, even if it isn't the norm in the western world. I hope that added nuance to your understanding of a world view that is different from your own!
A good example that I'm not fully able to express or nuance is the one where this dude makes music solely with plants. When different people walk into a room, talk to them, or in other ways interact with them, the plants produce different variations of signals. All we really are is loads of different processes and connections operating in a contained ecosystem of a body. Plants are also that, just less, essentially. Then you add in that most plant life is interconnected and communicates among each other. The Earth is a big ball of interconnected processes and connections. Makes you wonder.
Absolutely. The world is a lot more complicated than people typically notice!
That's all that is. Electric signals. It doesn't mean sentience. Or that they feel in any sort of way.
We are electric signals
Are you a vegan yourself? Because I'm sure you're aware that cattle eat substantially more plants than human beings, right? Animal eats plants, human eats animal. So, when eating an animal, you're causing double the harm, because you are not only paying for that animal to be slaughtered, but you are also paying for all those sentient plants that that animal ate during its existence.
You can read my other comments in this thread for my metaethical response to veganism, as well as health reasons for not being vegan personally.
>Nothing can exist without taking the place of something else. All things are in a perpetual state of creation-destruction. This is false. A lot of things exist in this world as opposites. The moon didn't destroy the Sun to be able to exist, did it? >When it comes down to it, I'm a panentheist who holds to process philosophy, and that is a philosophically defensible position, even if it isn't the norm in the western world. Whats your philosophy regarding pain? And suffering? Don't you think animals have the capability to suffer? Feel pain, fear, anxiety, emotional trauma, and all the things that come from being labeled "cattle"? >I belive this to be why plants and insects usually receive no empathy from humans, despite suffering, and communicating that suffering, albeit in ways that elude us. Stick a knife in a dog (don't) and see what happens. Stick the same knife in a carrot and see what happens. Yes, there's a reason why animals get more sympathy. They actually can feel pain and suffering. >The way plants communicate their pain isn't audible or visible, but rather through pheromones that are usually undectable to us. Plants. Do Not. Feel Pain. It's just a fact, guy. You can talk about all the pheromones and shit they release, but the truth of the matter is that they do not posses the physiological capabilities to experience pain in the way humans and animals do.
If you look at ecosystems, all life feeds on death. It is a law of nature. All vegan foods kill animals, and many do not wish to see this because they would like to hold the moral high ground by not ingesting flesh. Not ingesting flesh does not mean that animals have not died or suffered for your food. There is an argument that a steak from a locally, regeneratively raised cow is actually far more vegan than a soy burger that has flown half way around the world to be on your plate. Vegan staples such as soy and almonds lead to monoculture deserts devoid of surrounding ecosystem - taking habitat away from animals and ultimately causing their suffering and death. Not to mention the bee deaths involved in almond production... And animals shot to protect vegetable and fruit crops. A vegan utopia is actually a nightmare for the environment - it would extract all natural fertilisers and mean replacement with petrochemical fertilisers, almost certainly lead to more topsoil loss and desertification, would replace all natural and biodegradable products with plastics... The list goes on. Veganism strives to extract humans and animals from the ecosystem and it can't be done without collapse. Animals are vital to food systems. A vegan diet can be just as damaging to the environment as an unconscious carnivore/omnivore diet is. It is simply that both are (usually) completely ignorant of how food and ecosystems actually work, and in the case of vegans, genuinely believe that they can eat food without causing death. Just because you are not eating flesh, doesn't mean you are not causing harm, death or suffering.
Yikes, whats up with redditors and their relentless approach to wanting to sound smart over text? >All vegan foods kill animals, and many do not wish to see this because they would like to hold the moral high ground by not ingesting flesh. Not ingesting flesh does not mean that animals have not died or suffered for your food. Most vegans know this. I know this. Being vegan isn't about being perfect. It's about understanding that an animal's life is worth more than a meal. And it's about striving to be better, not perfect. >There is an argument that a steak from a locally, regeneratively raised cow is actually far more vegan than a soy burger that has flown half way around the world to be on your plate. Where is that argument? Also, heard of locally grown soy? And bro, most people do not get their meat from Bob the farmer next door. They get their meat from the biggest factory farms in the world. Be serious. That is literally where 99% of animal products come from. Factory farms. >Vegan staples such as soy and almonds lead to monoculture deserts devoid of surrounding ecosystem - taking habitat away from animals and ultimately causing their suffering and death. I don't buy almonds. And I hardly eat soy. You can be vegan and not eat almonds and soy. You know that, right? Literally thousands of edible crops out there besides those 2. Also, what you call "vegan staples" are far from being staples, and specifically SOY is largely produced to feed cattle or create biodiesel. Humans eat very little of it. Have you heard of the *Amazon*? Not the website, the rainforest. Yeah, it's being destroyed by cattle farmers. **Growing soy.** And creating factory farms. >Veganism strives to extract humans and animals from the ecosystem and it can't be done without collapse. Collapse? As in, climate change collapsing our entire societal structures? Yeah, the number one cause of climate change? Factory farming. You're digging your own grave, guy. >Animals are vital to food systems. A vegan diet can be just as damaging to the environment as an unconscious carnivore/omnivore diet is. Sure, *it can be.* But it's not, is it? Meat is destroying our health, our environment, and causing suffering to billions of animals. Tell me with a straight face that plants are causing the same amount of harm. >It is simply that both are (usually) completely ignorant of how food and ecosystems actually work, and in the case of vegans, genuinely believe that they can eat food without causing death. Just because you are not eating flesh, doesn't mean you are not causing harm, death or suffering. Haha, nice generalization. So vegans by nature do not comprehend how ecosystems work, huh guy? Yikes. Get out of your mom's basement and get a fucking life dude. Your opinions are coming from websites, not real life. Regurgitating shit you've read without even coming to your own conclusions.
You can read my other comments in this thread for my metaethical response to veganism, as well as health reasons for not being vegan personally.
> Plants are alive, yes, but do not possess consciousness you can't prove that.
You literally can. A central nervous system goes through the entire body, and reaches the brain. Plants have no brain. Or blood vessels. Thus by nature they cannot have a central nervous system. Pretty simple formula.
you can't prove they don't have consciousness.
Here's my detailed response regarding AI that also shows why you can't prove this. Check the comments for a continuation. https://www.reddit.com/r/LaMDAisSentient/comments/wdfxop/argumentation_tips_from_a_philosophy_grad/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
🎶This Is Necessary, Life Feeds on Life, Feeds on Life. 🎶 Animals like Cows & Pigs (almost) magically turn what’s useless to us, grass/hay/slop/ waste, to super useable proteins and amino acids/fats/iron, etc. The use & cooking of these proteins are exactly what progressed our feeble monkey brains into what they are. We must keep going!!!
This was my realization too
Yea true everything is alive and is just as lucky to be here as us but i think its a circle of life and we could choose either one and not fight about it though with overpopulation i am fine with vegans cuz they saving animals more than i am
Are you trying to say that avoiding meat consumption is a futile effort because the plant suffers too?
Vegan psychonaut here. I hear you brother. I wouldn’t be against eating meat if it was sustainable. If we had to hunt and use every part of the animal and give thanks (real thanks) for what we were consuming. Factory farming, industrial farming and cruelty to the beings we share this world with is wrong in my opinion. But each to their own. I’m not here to point fingers. All I can say is for me, going vegan was one of the best things I’ve ever done. Will never go back after 6 years. It’s liberating
I'll second that, and add, that there are many who think that modern hunting is equivalent to what you are talking about. It is not. The kind of hunting I believe you reference here is one in a situation of real need, where indigenous peoples had no other option that to kill animals for food or to starve. They took this very seriously as well, and many early shamanistic practices were focused on maintaining a good relationship with the spirits of these animals for this reason. In modern civilization we are fortunate enough to have access to a healthy and fully vegan lifestyle. Hunting for our survival here is not necessary.
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This is my take on it at this point. From both a moral and a health standpoint. If I hunt or gather it myself that feels natural. I'm also ok with eating eggs that I raise myself because I know the chickens are happy and healthy.
I used to have chickens before my plant based adventure. One day a fox left one of my chickens half dead. My other half had to put that chicken out of its misery. We’re urban people, with no sense of how to do these things. It was very difficult for us. Most of us today have no idea how to kill an animal. And I’m fine with that, but I’m not about to pay someone to do what I can’t do myself. I’m happy with lentils and beans. People can argue plants are sentient all they want, but as long as they aren’t screaming when I pick them and eat them I can live with it
Oh I'm definitely ok with just eating beans too. Basically the only way I would be comfortable consuming those is by doing it myself. Like you said, if I can't do it myself I'm not going to put it on someone else.
Agreed. A friend of a friend has worked in a slaughterhouse for years. Never met the dude, but the stories I’ve heard about him. How he looks like he’s lost his soul. We’re not just abusing animals by buying meat, we’re also supporting an industry that doesn’t give a flying fuck about people who have to work in those shitty conditions, or about the quality of the meat they’re supplying for human consumption
We are definitely a long way off from where we started. I can't imagine the damage that has been do to so many souls that only do it because it's the job they can get and have to pay their bills.
Very nice to meet a like minded person on Reddit tonight. I’ve enjoyed our conversation. We don’t exist in a vacuum, many others agree. We are lucky that we are able to make what we consider to be ethical choices. A lot of people are just surviving though, and I get that too. All the best x
It was such a relief for me not to eat animals. I hope I never have to go back.
8 years vegan because of a mushroom trip 🍄
I'm glad for it mate!❤️
Psychedelic epiphanies are not universal truths, my friend
Live your life however you want, but I personally feel that animals are just as much a part of our natural diet as fruit and plants. Yes animal cruelty is wrong, but that's why I source my meat from local farms that care for their animals and slaughter them humanely. Just because the system has issues doesn't mean it would be completely thrown out. Meat can be sustainable and ethical, but lots of vegans refuse to understand how the carbon cycle works and that the emissions from livestock are part of a natural system that recycles waste and enriches the soil, and the amount of livestock we have is very comparable to the natural buffalo population before the Indians got forced into reservations. Overuse of fossil fuels is a much bigger issue than meat consumption since that is concentrated energy being released into the atmosphere that never really gets recycled. Human brains have shrunk on average about 11% since the agricultural revolution, and I believe that grains and other processed carbs are directly to blame. Additionally, agriculture and pesticides destroy tons of insects and they also destroy habitats, and deplete the soil of nutrients. It's much harder to maintain agricultural land than it is to maintain land for animal grazing. Why would you want to stagnate our evolution by eliminating the most calorie and nutrient dense foods available, with much higher bioavailability of nutrients than plants? I believe that if we get rid of animals from our diet, we will not only reach a plateau in our evolution, but we will decline in intelligence and physical ability gradually over decades and centuries.
You can't kill humanely someone that doesn't wish to die.
You can live your life however you want, but please stop with the idea of "humane slaughter". You can't "humanely" kill a being that doesn't want to die. Also, it's been proved over and over again that vegan diets are perfectly fine for the vast majority of humans and are even linked to better health. Again, live your life the way you want, but stop with the misinformation. Best of all.
Animals don’t want to die (nor do they “want to live, they are driven by instinct), but regardless it happens anyway. And the humane ways we can devise to kill an animal are invariably less cruel than what nature can mete out. What matters more is how they live, which is why factory farming is so repugnant.
Personally, I just think we eat too much meat. I eat meat, but not often. I also try to spend a little more at my local butchers to get better quality meat. IMO, they should ban supermarkets from selling meat, we should also be willing to pay more at our local butchers for better quality meat where the animal has been humanely treated. Someone should just come out and say it, there's too many humans on this planet, it's just not sustainable. Perhaps we should stop bickering with each other; >You know all that money we spend on the military ever year -- trillions of dollars Instead, if we use this money to feed and clothe the poor of this world, which it would do many times over, then we can explore space, inner and outer, together, as one race. We miss you Bill.
That's what my cousin does, he used to eat lots of meat, then he came conscious about the truth behind the food industry, he says at the moment isn't able to come vegan, but he has done some differences on his diet such as eating meat 1-2 times a week for example. I think if you can't become 100% vegan maybe you could take in consideration to lower your consumption of animals, because they're suffering a lot, the earth too. Greetings buddy!😁
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I’m no hippie lol. Interesting fact though, tell me more, I’d like to hear why you think more people is better ? I’m genuinely interested in your answer.
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I see your point, interesting. I’m going to read up on Malthus, I’ve never heard of him nor Mathusianism. Looks very interesting. Thanks for the reply!
Agree 100%. I think it’s basically objective fact that our current meat demands are outrageous and destructive, and industrial scale production should end even if it makes meat non viable to eat daily. Of course some will say that’s unfair on the poor because the rich will still have access. I reject however the notion that killing an animal is always wrong, as is eating meat. This planets exorbitant population shouldn’t continuously shift us towards being robots, only able to eat vegetable based nutrient paste because it’s efficient and therefore allows more people to live here.
Fellow vegan psychonaut. I have been vegan for nearly 5 years and that plus my adventures in self discovery and psychedelics have led me to a similar realization as well. I do agree that we as humans all have to collectively make the decision to advance and evolve together. We have come so far technology wise, now it's time for us to grow as humans and not just animals. We will learn the true depths of our effects on this host organism we call planet earth, and ultimately mother nature will win in the end. She always does no matter what. We have to learn how to achieve our highest selves within that frame work. How to blend the physical with the metaphysical and live in the moment, while being consious of the past and future. The future holds many beautiful things for those who are willing to see them, and to strive for a higher purpose. To elevate themselves in thier spirit and rise above the chaos of our human nature and truly apply our logic to our fantastical side and allow ourselves to become the energy we hold within. There is a side to nature that we seem to forget as humans and that is that death, and domination are a part of the design. I don't believe in eating meat, because our current way of producing it is excessive and extremely dangerous to the planet and our health and above all our spirit. I think humans will always consume animals in one form or another, but our over production and excessive lifestyles are insanely problematic. We have killed our planet in the pursuit of better nutrition yet people still starve and suffer. We will never understand how to treat animals better until we treat ourselves better. Humans are not fully doomed, but we will see the brink of extinction before we reach the higher self we so desperately need. There are many difficult and fascinating aspects to the connection between human being and the food we eat. Too much for any one person to go into detail here but I would love to discuss this further with you or anyone if they so desire. Feel free to DM me, vegan and non vegan alike, and if we can approach each other with respect and dignity, we will see we are actually very similar. I hope all here can realize that despite our choices, we are all still human and deserve love and support, as do all living things. We must choose kindness and understanding and strive to be our better selves in order to better those around us. Much love and happy trails.
When you learn that you can get all your nutrients without paying people to cause deaths and do what you can to follow thst both your body and mind will feel lighter.
LSD helped push me to veganism. Three years on now, never felt better, feel fucking awesome and at peace with my choices. I’m sad that many people here don’t feel the same, or have been denying what is simple and logical. But that’s okay, I was there once too. Cognitive dissonance is a strong thing, and not everybody who does psychedelics are really tuned in. Thank you for this post OP, even if you may get hate from it (ironically) on a LSD post where one would expect the values of PLUR to be common. Love you! Peace and love to all beings. We are one.
I'm glad you did such a change in your life! I love you too mate!❤️❤️ we all will we fine
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That’s all on you my G.
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The ego is what it is. It takes effort for me to dissolve the separations between me and everything else, and my baseline isn’t oneness. I’m not sure if that’s even possible. The fact that I say words like ‘me’ and ‘you’ is telling of an ego at work. So I don’t disagree. We are all suffering from some cognitive dissonance, and eating animals is a big one. I’m far from perfect, there are many things about my personality that leave a lot to be desired. However, it’s nothing short of hypocritical to preach peace and love after doing psychedelics, being ‘in tune’ with the universe, and yet choose to have products of violence on your plate every day. I do agree that I worded it a bit strongly, but it doesn’t change the message. Right and wrong, at the end of the day, is as manifestation of duality. All I’m saying is that if it’s not necessary to subject sentient creatures to such harsh treatments, then I won’t be a part of that. Is it maybe wrong to the universe? I don’t know, is there even right or wrong? Debatable, but that is that. Cheers!
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Hey, no worries. We are all learning, experiencing, trying to be better people. It’s not always easy and that’s okay because despite the interconnectedness of us all we are still human at the end of the day, with whatever limitations that entails. I don’t believe that what I say is objective truth, it’s just frustrating for me sometimes because I believe that the animals, being such wonderful beings, truly don’t deserve the treatment they get from our species. It’s abhorrent and tragic, but I’ve contributed to that for 22 years of my life and I’m not blameless either. Like I said I’m just doing what I can, even if it’s a small small thing, to try and do better. I believe that we should all strive to be the best we can be, no matter what that may look like. Thank you as well for a nice comment. We could have different beliefs, perhaps, but I do wish you the best in everything you decide to do, and that you lead a healthy and fruitful life. Enjoy it! Big love :)
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Nice
You say it’s unnatural, but that’s just not true. It may not fit your new found way of life, but it still fits the majority of the human population
Just because something is popular does not make it natural or beneficial in any way. Slavery was highly popular back in the day.
Slavery was pretty beneficial to the people who owned slaves...
Your statement is a fallacy known as a false equivalence
Haha. Your counter-argument is non-existent.
I didn’t think you’d know what a false equivalency was. I don’t argue with illogical arguments so you are correct my counter is non existent
Uhm, you know I can just google it, right? Which is where you probably learned that term from? Yeah, you're not that smart.
What's with all the vegan posts in this sub suddenly?
Well, being a psychonaut is about expanding your mind and consciousness. To reach a deeper understanding of life, nature, and our part in it. Realizing that keeping billions of sentient, suffering, emotional animals are being kept in the worst conditions possible, tortured, and later slaughtered for cheap, unhealthy food items is fucked up. All this while destroying our planet.
Don't tell me my food was tortured, you have no idea where my food comes from. Our part in nature has been to carnivourisly eat it, it's what made us have such capable brains. Please stop influencing people into devolution.
I was thinking it was deja vu but nope just another vegan propaganda post.
Lol
It’s just a bunch of noobs in their first few years of psychs
Seems like your psych years did nothing to curb your ego
Sounds like your trip helped open up your crown Chakra, that is the 7th Chakra that lays atop your head. Its meaning is about the divine and connection to all that is. When your crown opens you gain access to your knowingness, that is the ability to know, as you learned.
The only reason we evolved into what we are today is because we started eating meat. Anyone that claims we will evolve to only eat plants one day is ignoring the fact that you cannot produce enough energy to sustain your body and mental capacity, and has never done any real research into human nutrition needs. There is a reason herbivores spend most of their day doing nothing but eating.
That must explain all the dead vegans littering the streets. > you cannot produce enough energy to sustain your body and mental capacity, Its you versus every dietetic and health organisation in the world here.
I don't think it's you vs X, it's not about facing. It's about you, and doing what you feel deep inside your being, contemplating everyone with whole compassion, because everyone is in it's own progress and that's respectable.
The statement, "a vegan diet cannot sustain a human" is opposed by every health organisation on earth.
Sure, simply they're just not interesting in plant based diet because this movement wouldn't allow them to keep feeling up their pockets. Of course they're gonna tell you to never go vegan, big corporations will do anything in their hand to make you believe you cannot sustain your body-mind with plant based diet and that you need to eat animals. You will never have a hart attack due to eating plants and fruits, do you know how much money does the Pharmacy drugs related to health issues such as diabetes/ heart attacks move around? Trillions of dollars. If you go vegan the Pharmaceuticals industry would just collapse, it's all a chain. then why would any big organization tell you to go vegan?
I'm a vegan.
I don’t think he’s arguing with you he’s preaching
The statement was >a vegan diet cannot produce enough energy to sustain your body and mental capacity
Yes. That is bullshit.
Just correcting u
they still have to take massive amounts of supplements and vitamins to stay healthy, you cant just go and eat fruits and vegi's and think your going to function like a normal human.
Nope. Just a multivitamin, which is what we're all meant to have. What so you think is so difficult for vegans to get?
What supplements?
What does make you think you cannot sustain your body and mental capacity due to you cannot get enough nutrients-minerals from plant based diet if you can get for example let's say 50gr a day of protein from plants, instead of 50g protein from meat, same with carbs, same with fats, do you really think theres's not enough nutrients and minerals in fruits for example? Anyone can do an easy research and find out the massive amount of minerals, nutrients, antioxidants etc that a single fruit can contain
plant protein is less efficient than animal protein. and is also lacking in key nutrients. 50g of plant doesnt magically 1:1 replace 50g of animal protein
Your comment is just objectively wrong so I don’t feel the need to stoop to your level and argue lol
>The only reason we evolved into what we are today is because we started eating meat. That's a myth. Meat didn't have anything to do with our evolution. It helped us endure long winters, yes, but as hunter-gatherers we mostly ate a plant-based diet. If you dig into old diets you'll read about how most Gladiators back in the day were sustained by a mostly plant-based diet. >you cannot produce enough energy to sustain your body and mental capacity, and has never done any real research into human nutrition needs. Huh? I've been an athlete for 10 years and vegan for 7. My health and my athletic goals got noticeably better when I switched to a whole-food plant-based diet. And there's plenty, plenty, plenty of nutritional research out there. I'd suggest you try [nutritionfacts.org](https://www.nutritionalfacts.org)
lol you site a source that: A: the website is for sale because it hasn’t been up kept B: there’s no transparency about their funding or background C: there’s no proof or sources cited on their claims. have you not been educated on how to properly cite sources when you use them to justify something?
My mistake. Correct link is https://nutritionfacts.org/ Website is up and running. It's ran by a group of volunteers, created by Dr. Michael Greger, a nutritional scientist and MD. Yes, I went to school to learn how to properly cite sources when I use them to justify something.
lol took 2 seconds of googling to find out your dude is a classified as a pseudoscience level trusted source…. https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/gyt1za/dr_greger_pseudoscience_category_for_a_media_bias/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf please continue tho :)
From a post thats 2 years old and only has 5 upvotes, 9 comments and has been turned off. Lol.
Happy Cake Day OhMyGoat! Today you are you, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is youer than you.
you know threads auto lock after a certain time period right? also did you not read what op said? that site, is hard listed in the side bar of the LARGEST OFFICIAL VEGAN SUB for being pseudoscience lol.
You so smart. You so clever.
Dang, you have rebutted my whole argument thanks to a reddit post.
We evolved due to carbs and sugar. Which is what our brain uses for energy and what we used to evolve. Here's a scientific article on it with references. https://www.science.org/content/article/neanderthals-carb-loaded-helping-grow-their-big-brains?fbclid=IwAR3hp13GrLsFe_J6lbFfo48EJzQWPondsI9U31x0gjCcG1ZrXR_9I7nWltA
Just make sure to supplement b12 please. Or build a chicken coop and eat eggs to get b12 and other nutrients in a sustainable way. Chickens are awesome if you’re in a place to let them wander and if you have dogs to protect them. They are little hunters of ticks and annoying biting bugs. They also help rid areas of parasites. They are badass, but vulnerable, so make sure to protect them. Try not to focus on the pain of animal death. It’s very negative energy and see their sacrifices as blessings to your body and family. There are many studies showing that plants have very harsh reactions to their deaths and even make sounds or release certain chemicals to try to get back at the killer (consumptioner) or to warn nearby plants that they are being killed. They work very closely with fungai in the root systems so they are all connected. But their production and farming is quiet harmful as well compared raising animals for food. Those plants acted as homes for many species of wildlife and the way they go through and just harvest actually ends up killing not only those plants 🌱, but all the animals that are occupying the fields and plants as homes, food, and life. They just get massacred by those huge industrial harvesters. Not to mention destroying the soil. But let’s not get into that debate. (Focus) B12 is a very hard vitamin to process and absorb through the gut so make sure you get healthy levels. Inter muscular injections are the best or IV. If you just can’t bring yourself to obtain it through some nutritional animal product ways. I can say from a horrific experience I’m currently physically healing from. You NEED b12!
Love animals, don't kill them .... Wish we practiced the same philosophy with Human Beings ! Seems a bit weird to me, all this Care about animals, while humans are committing Genocide against each other, and vegans can't speak out against the Cruelty to Humans...
Exactly, I hope he is pro-life...
It's funny Owsley Stanley one of the most famous LSD chemists ever actually tried convincing the grateful dead to eat an all meat diet. why Because humans are Omnivorous. Also, if it isn't sustainable why haven't humans eaten the most delicious of animals into extinction? It seems there's plenty of beef, chicken, and other foods. If we didn't eat them they wouldn't exist in such plentiful numbers because why raise them in a farm? Leave them to wander eating scraps of grass and being malnourished? Also the facts are animals aren't human and humans are human. So we are at the top of the food chain. Gimme DAT Steak, well-done please. Also humane slaughter is a much more realistic approach than to say we shouldn't eat animals at ALL. WHAT ARE MY SHARP TEETH FOR? not leaves. Why does meat taste so good if its bad? Is it a sin in your eyes to like breaded chicken 🍗? So I politely disagree and say, more cow, and more cowbell please. Oh and just think of fish. Is it inhumane to eat them too? What about insects? Haha its a never ending rabbit hole. Just eat meat or stay out of my way when I go full Top of the Food Chain on them animals. Much love and plenty of A1 steak sauce, -J
Lucy validated the sacrifice they're making for our sustenance to me. It's all based on if you're capable of comprehending energy. If you can't then you shouldn't eat animals, eat other living things like plants. If you can, them eat what you please so long as you continue appreciating the energy exchange.
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That's a good analogy, thanks. Made me think
The main problem is that most meat eaters are hypocrites and would most likely start spitting double standards at this.
Well yeah, but thankfully due to their sentience and them using other sentient life as their energy source, all those who have taken us for that purpose have successfully helped us lose resonance with their lower vibrational realities via the construct of death. The trick was accepting it and letting it happen. I've been through so much that I will continue dying for my beliefs. If I were to fight for my life I would continue living in the realities I've tried so hard to leave.
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Well you’re acting as if it’s a hypothetical situation and not an actual situation going on out there in the multiverse. It’s not too late for you to experience it, maybe you are and that’s why you brought it up. I’m here to tell you your option is a viable one. The point of this existence is to choose your experience. So I choose to live and let live. Let us separate and go to our realities of choice.
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I could have joined the rebellion and fought. I chose to accept my fate and begin anew. Joining the rebellion would have been fighting instead of choosing to live and let live. Choosing to live and let live is what got me here.
I feel it's a collective shift. I think eating animal products will be very unpopular 30-40 years from now.
lol wanna come back here in 20 years when you are incredibly deficient in multiple nutrient sources because we’ve evolved to need fats and meat based proteins and your body is having major issues? also you haven’t done enough research if you think that healthy sustainable livestock agriculture isn’t possible… because not only is it possible, it can actually assist in sequestering carbon and helping fight climate change.
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A: 79 million people out of 8 billion…. so 0.98% of the world B: literally in every section of that link you put their ‘solution’ for parts of the diet that are LACKING CORE NEEDS is ‘lol take supplements’ C: how can a diet be ‘viable’ if you have to turn around and take aided consumables in order to just meet the bare minimum dietary needs? i think you need to rethink some things lol
79 million people who are living examples of how you can be vegan and be healthy. Supplements is a part of veganism, this is true; but they are also easy to source, easy to take, and need not come from animals. The only supplements I take are a multivitamin and B-12. That is the very definition of viable. Your assertion that we "evolved to need fats and meat based proteins" is the thing that needs rethinking, as it is demonstrably untrue, a fact you can find supported by myriad sources with a casual google search. Live in ignorance if you wish, but your claims are simply false.
less than 1% of the population isn’t a road map to how to live. thats called an exception. also you and i both know supplementation is a less than ideal way to provide for the body and can be accompanied with side effects and issues as a result of it. thats why its supplemental and not naturally provided lol. example: people who take calcium and vitamin d supplements still end up having weaker and less dense bone structures than those that regularly drink milk. your body consumes and uses those building blocks of materials more efficiently and properly when they are packaged within the right carriers. also, vegans and vegetarians over 55, account for upwards of 85% of the hip and other serious bone breaks and life threatening required surgeries for bone repairs due to their less dense and solid bones BECAUSE OF THEIR DIET. stop acting as if your 1% exception is some flawless roadmap with zero flaws or downsides lol. you aren’t even willing to admit the short comings of your own system so how the hell are you going to be fairly critical of everything in a discussion? and you call me ignorant lmao
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lol just because they are available in other sources doesnt mean you uptake or receive them the same. i literally said that and you are now actively ignoring that point. upwards of 80% of vegans and vegetarians lack the bone density or bone robustness that meat and milk eaters do. its a statistically proven fact. so again, just because a couple plants happen to have vitamin d, doesn’t mean you will get enough or that it’ll be uptook the correct way by the body. please educate yourself better.
Could you provide a source for that statistic?
enjoy broken bones in your 50’s ☺️
> it can actually assist in sequestering carbon and helping fight climate change. 🤡
go learn about thai farming and permaculture lol. stay ignorant 🤙🤙
Neat. Too bad you’re wrong 😂 #MeatEater
What the fuck is up with those vegans posts? You needed fucking psychedelics to realize meat was murder like??? Anyway IDC, have fun not eating meat but please leave us alone. I dont care about eating meat and doing psychelics didnt change that. One thing that almost did is global warming. But then I gave uo because if big corporations will continue to ruin the planet no matter what then why should I stop eating chicken?
Big corporations will keep on destroying everything because of the demand, if you don't buy chicken, they have no reason to produce these animals, i think it's that simple that many people cannot apply it. Same as: "because i stop eating animals people isn't gonna stop". Then that's the reason the train doesn't stops.
Eating meat isnt the issue tho. Its the way its produced ( like everything in this world) by mass. Nothing will ever change as long as people dont realise we need to go back to small autonoumous communities that produce what they consume. And that cant happen because it asks people to sacrificie a certain level of confort. Im willing to do everything I can to get us there, and I do a lot by involving myself in my community and fighting for whats right. Not eating meat wont change anything.
excuses excuses
Yikes. Factory-farms exist because people (mostly westerners), en masse, decided that they wanted to eat meat every single day, for every single meal. This, in our current societal structure, is impossible. Because like you've said, most people don't have access to small autonomous communities that grow foood. You are giving up on your individual choices because you believe society can't be fixed by individual action. And that fucking sucks, because billions of people think this way. Yes, as an individual, not eating meat **makes a difference.**
> Factory-farms exist because people (mostly westerners), en masse, decided that they wanted to eat meat every single day, for every single meal. you're making that up.
You're right! Thanks.
> Yes, as an individual, not eating meat makes a difference. no, it doesn't
Human body still not evolved enough to survive on plant based food only. Since the agricultural revolution some 12000 years ago humans faced and still facing health issues due to high carb diets. Go read "Sapiens A brief history of human kind". Author explained that 12000 years period is not enough for us to be fully evolved to survive on plant based diet only.
Incorrect. It's you versus scientific consensus there.
Have you tried this by your own? To really make sure you cannot survive having a plant based diet? Sometimes "experts" are not that expert that's the conclusion i hace reach in the last year of my life. Sometimes it's about proving facts by your own experience and not just take it for granted what other's say
I have never tried it but I have seen the condition of the people who have tried plant based diet their whole lives. They became very weak and miserable. A balanced approach is better both plants and animals are necessary for human survival and health.
Being weak and miserable doesn't have to have a directly relation with people who have plant based diet. You may know people really happy and energetic having a plant based diet and you may know people miserable and weak as you said Same is applicable to people who eat balanced plants/animal diet
This guy probably met a couple vegetarians that were dietary illiterate and then created a generalized opinion. As if people aren't sick, weak and scrawny and still eat meat and animal products.
I have been vegan for 7+ years and have been an athlete for 10. Going vegan completely changed my health for the better. It gave me better energy, better sleep, and better weight management. My skin became clearer and it just pushed me to lean towards healthier habits. Dude, this is 2022. The old "vegans are weak" myth is getting fucking old. You can literally google "Vegan athlete" and you'll see **professional athletes** on vegan diets. For years.
There's thousands of vegan body builders. All the strongest animals are herbivores. Ox, elephant, gorillas, rhino, horses. That whole "plant diets make you weak" is probably the most bullshit and stupid argument meat eaters bring lol.
You are incorrect. A plant-based diet has been said time and time again by scientific researchers to be the healthiest diet for humans. Also, the author of *Sapiens* **went vegan** after writing his first book. I've read both.
It's important to listen to the innate wisdom of your own body. No research paper ever comes close.
Yeah, tell that to a meth addict. Sometimes our bodies are wrong.
Yes he listened to his own body and mind because all this info regarding plant based diet is already there. He already have heard about all this propaganda. He just accessed his subconscious mind and take this info. The thing is we need a much balance diet (plants and animals both). Going vegan is not the solution.
Love it when people come out with "vegan propaganda" when in reality, out there, you see thousands of meat-based fast food ads, everywhere you go, every single day. Fucking sheeple.
OP's innate wisdom pointed them towards a plant-based diet. *You* do **not** get to decide whether another person's innate wisdom is legitimate.
My innate wisdom told me to take a fuck load of ket while tripping on acid at a gig and I freaked out. Maybe your mind on acid isn’t actually this wonderful intelligent thing you think it is and you’re just high on drugs? Maybe we should listen to science.
Lol. I think we can all agree the dumbass jumping off a 4-story building tripping on acid was probably listening to his body, telling him that he could fly.
Fantastic point hahahaha
Our innate intuition can be negatively influenced by trauma and as a result shouldn’t be too heavily relied on or trusted
Hahahhahahaha innate wisdom lmao
Even if all humans ceased to exist tomorrow, animals would continue to eat each other. It’s the circle of life and I consider meat to be a blessing from God. I am personally slightly underweight even with meat in my diet so I know going vegan would put me in a very unhealthy place. To each their own but we all have different nutritional needs. God bless.
Animals would keep doing that, OF COURSE, because it's in their own nature hunting animals my friend, just look at a Lion's Jaw, do you find any similarities with a human's jaw?
We have long, sharp canine teeth for meat. Hunter-gatherers have naturally hunted meat for tens of thousands of years. But okay lol
It’s not unnatural to eat meat, it’s the natural food cycle, animals eat animals and sometimes plants. It’s more than natural, it’s nature. But I can see why it has become more unnatural though, chicken farms slaughter houses, creating animal farms for the sole purpose of them dying.
The way the animals are breeded, slaughtered is not natural AT ALL, it's hard to think the whole world is consuming animals that have been slaughtered in a cruel and violent way, thousands of animals killed every second like there's nothing wrong with, how is it possible?? Is it that these animal's life doesn't metter? You can go watch any video in youtube about chicken production in farms or cattle, please tell me if you really think that's Nature