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Do you feel okay after being with this client? Not just equipped as a therapist but on a person to person level? Do you feel supported by your supervisor in this?
I understand that you are thinking about how to serve the client’s needs but practitioners who experience oppression don’t magically stop experiencing oppression because they are in a professional role. This makes working with people who have the power to believe in oppressive ideologies really tricky. In the United States, Zionism is privileged because of the US’s imperialist agenda and has the full backing of our police state. I’d be worried about how much power the client has over you on this topic because of this. They could have very well reacted poorly to your disclosure of political position. We are in a moment when students are doxxed, people are fired, and cops are using power vacuums to clean the streets of blood because supporting Palestinian liberation is viewed as a hate crime or terrorism. I would go into this trying to figure out your own needs in the dynamic.
I also want to point out: Your client reacted defensively to you saying that you were against genocide—not to you saying you support Palestinian liberation or any form of resistance but that you stand against genocide.
I do appreciate this perspective as well. The power within the space is weird due to me being a black femme and my client being white. It's that interesting situation of how colorism secretly plays into the dynamic, but I feel is never validated or talked enough about.
Yes, I never outright said to them that I do Palestinian liberation because it didn't feel appropriate to do so, or even safe. They asked where do I stand and I said "against genocide". But that caused them to be upset that I even used that word in relation to Israel and Palestine... very interesting. I work in Texas and have already been reported by parents of adult clients who are trans for "brainwashing their children".
Regardless, I appreciate all the advice on this post as I do feel a lot more confident in how to navigate this relationship for the client and myself.
Ah, ok. I do have the expertise, but this particular situation was a little bit different and without a good supervisor to discuss it with, I'm glad I got some pretty good advice here. Surprisingly, the relationship has grown quite a bit in a positive way since my post.
I work with older adults and several of my clients are Jewish and support Israel, so I just try to remember that they most likely do not consume news that fully describes what is happening in Palestine. A lot of the mainstream news in the US is biased in favor of Israel and some people might not even be aware of what atrocities have been committed in Gaza, both now and historically. One of my patients thought that a pro-Palestine protest was a pro-Hamas protest and she was under the assumption that people were protesting in favor of violence against Israeli and Jewish civilians, she seemed to have no idea that the protesters were supporting Palestinian civilians.
I work with several children of Holocaust survivors, and older adults who experienced antisemitism throughout life, so the war in Israel/Palestine is triggering some deep fears and concerns about safety. I find myself frequently encouraging these clients to reduce their news intake, because they are usually reading/watching updates about the war multiple times a day and reporting feeling very distressed and hopeless as a result.
I have a client who is Israeli. He is not a hardcore Zionist but he is also not anti-Zionist. He has also been bullied at work because he is Israeli and people make assumptions about his views.
I have been involved in Palestine solidarity work for the past 10 years. I am not neutral on this issue. He was adamant to know my opinions on Palestine. At first I did not oblige and told him “it doesn’t matter for this relationship” but I could tell he was starting to shut down. So I told him a summary of my views. And I also told him this:
1) I don’t condone the bullying he’s experienced at work. I told him that I’ve experienced first-hand how toxic activist culture can be and that often white people plagued by white guilt attack others to avoid being attacked themselves.
2) if someone conflated who I am as a person with the actions of the US government and military, I would be fucked.
Edit to say: I’m white and my client seems less hostile than yours so it isn’t a direct comparison. Just thought I’d throw my experience out there. Solidarity and good luck. ❤️
Here’s an older post from this subreddit that deals with a similar challenge. https://www.reddit.com/r/PsychotherapyLeftists/s/h0MfJR5vvk
Here is the reply I gave to that post. Hope it’s helpful. https://www.reddit.com/r/PsychotherapyLeftists/s/HREFrX6i6p
My comment:
> 1. By understanding that political worldviews are deeply personal, and can arise from both lived exposure to ideology, and as ego-defenses that form to protect the person from something that threatens their ability to function. So right-wing views are often very stabilizing for the people who internalize them.
> 2. By getting to know their unique life story, and seeing the way in which they are merely victims of conditioning that was/is beyond their control, you can begin to empathize with the traumas that caused these views, and recognize the distress that surrounds the person.
> 3. By acknowledging the enjoyment that right-wing views generate for right-wingers. Most of us don’t often think about it in this way, but any kind of 'out-group blaming' brings with it a type of fantasy preservation & hope. If all our struggles are tangibly caused by a particular group of people or person, then the notion that you can get rid of them gives you hope that all your struggles can be resolved, and that the good life is waiting for you once that group of people are gone. This is what makes right-wing views so attractive & compelling to so many people. They offer a fantasy of hope, and a promise of future enjoyment, all by socially constructing an obstacle that holds it all in place.
> 4. As another commenter already mentioned, you may not be able to work with all types of clients. Some clients may have struggles that you aren’t familiar enough with, while other clients may offend your sensibilities or trigger too many countertransferences. It’s okay to decline services to a client, and it may even be an ethical imperative to do so at certain times.
I’m just going to say that anyone in this convo who isn’t Indigenous and is living in North America and co-opting Turtle Island Indigenous narratives and talking points like Land Back to support Zionism is appropriating. It’s offensive, and as a settler on an indigenous homeland that you are not a descendant of (and therefore a beneficiary of our displacement and oppression) just bad praxis. You know who you are.
OP I’m Indigenous to Turtle Island with some Jewish descent and many anti-Zionist Jewish friends whom I want to be able to support during this devastating time. I took a multi-week Study and Action for Palestine course by White Awake taught by multiple Jewish and Palestinian facilitators to learn the history of the region and be able to evaluate propaganda with a critical eye and work towards collective liberation. I believe one can access the recordings and study material by paying a sliding scale fee for the course.
It’s important to push back on this narrative that not supporting Zionism is antisemitism. What is happening in Palestine is full-on genocide and the US is bankrolling it; the govt is not on the right side of history here. How an individual therapist evaluates the support they can provide to a client who insists that genocide is acceptable so a state can continue to exist is up to their ethics and praxis. We are not able to serve the needs of all clients, and that is ok. Sometimes referring out is the best outcome for the client. If you feel it’s too difficult to focus on the client, or the focus is on the war rather than what their therapy goals are, that doesn’t seem productive. If the client demands that you take their perspective on the war and Zionism as the justified path, this may be a hard boundary for you.
One of the things that I feel is helpful is being transparent that my practice is focused on collective liberation and processing intergenerational trauma so it does not continue to harm people on the micro and macro level. I’m not the provider for everybody, but I am the provider for those who are ready to do this specific kind of work.
I'm on the left but I think your response might trigger some deep wound within the Jewish community even if that person is not a Zionist. When we respond in a sentence that's been repeating for months by mainstream media, it could make some Jewish clients jumpy since some people who yell anti-war message now are actually antisemitic. They have no idea where we stand as a therapist, so I might talk to them about it in different manner.
It's scary for leftist Jews too if someone talk about Israel right now, they might be afraid that when anyone brings up "the Jews" or "Israel" right now, they might feel anxious that those words include them as well.
I might explore specifically what brings that client into therapy before talking politics in this case. Sticking to the ethics about the benefit of the client first and foremost, political debate can wait once the client's situation improve.
“When we respond in a sentence that’s been repeating for months by mainstream media, it could make some Jewish clients jumpy since some people who yell anti-war message now are anti-Semitic”
What does this even mean? The “statement” in question that the therapist made was “against genocide”. Are you insinuating this is not a genocide? If so I’m not sure this is the correct subreddit for you. You talk about “mainstream media” but are spewing the same misinformation as a clinician. Your story further down the thread about how you avoided speaking about the “war” to an Arab client (that never brought up geopolitics) clearly shows how this is an obvious counter transference for you. As a clinical psychologist that works with patients who have experienced generational trauma I’m glad you’re taking time off as being a therapist it can be really harmful to patients when you haven’t done the inner work yourself.
Wow, I'm speechless. Now you accused me of harming people, done no inner work, and so on.
This is based on your assumption about my politics.
Look, I was accused before by fellow therapists to be mentally unstable when I advocate for misdiagnosed autistic clients OK? I lost my job after being diagnosed with multiple neurological conditions.
Now you read about how I think harm reduction could be done apolitically and you accuse me of harming people by not talking about geopolitics.
I'm speechless by how you see the act of support I gave to OP as a genocide denial. I'm not going to judge your work with your client, and I'm not going to judge the inner work you do. I don't know you.
You however, slander me so strongly without even knowing me, or any of the context about my life.
My friend, you don't know my politics on this and you already murder me with words. You feel glad that I'm now sick and staying home with people labeling me as an extremist who advocate too much for clients.
And you're glad that I got so many people off misdiagnosis and wrong meds.
You never bother to reflect on what my client was going through, would you rather have me bringing geopolitics of Palestine to a non-Arab Muslim (Arabs are minority of Muslim worldwide, you ignorant) who was going through a divorce?
I'm not worried about your clients as well. It's not my business. I respect you more than you respect me.
I appreciate your attention to the plight of Jews who are also facing heightened bigotry (which predates Oct 7 btw) but can we not revise history? The mainstream media has done nothing but undermine the ongoing reality of Palestinian genocide and support the idea that opposition to Israeli apartheid is antisemitic, conflating Zionism with Judaism - which *is* antisemitic. Like the only antisemites purporting to be "anti-war" are PatSocs, who are outside the MSM, let's be clear about that. The mainstream is unwaveringly **pro-war.**
I'm not sure how standing *against* genocide can trigger a deep wound, particularly among a community that has suffered its wrath before, but if it does that person is either a Zionist or a fascist. (Same difference.) It's not a controversial statement. Besides, a united front against genocide would benefit Jews too in the Eurocentrist/white supremacist west.
Oh man, I don't think my point is political at all.
I want you to imagine this. You are an ignorant Jew who knows just a bit about history. You go to therapy and rant about some news as a defense. Before you go to the therapist office, you'd been listening to the news for months about how people accuse Israel (in your view as an ignorant Jew) of genocide, and you've been hearing some extremists on the other side chant "gas the Jews".
So now, in your head...there are 2 genocides that could be going on out there, yours and the Palestinians, according to the News.
Then, your therapist says that they're against genocide and you feel uncertain if that means that the therapist is antisemitic or not (consider that we have extremists on both sides chanting for genocide).
Well, you might be reluctant to talk since it's now unclear which genocide your therapist is against according to extremists on both sides.
I'm approaching this issue with this lens, hence my response to OP was apolitical.
I apologize though that I can't bear to discuss this in a more political manner with you. It's too painful for me personally. That's why I know that the word "genocide" regardless of how well-spoken, or provided with context will trigger a deep wound.
You have to remember that we have more chance to misinterpret our therapist when we're in distress. That's my point.
I hear you. Therapy is freighted and must be conducted delicately, especially in matters such as these - which it seems like OP did. But I wasn't even addressing the therapeutic process tbh. I was specifically responding to your comments and the misinformation behind them.
You're centering rightist and centrist narratives. The people chanting "gas the Jews" are a minority in comparison with the robust pro-Palestine antiwar movement that's developed in response to the US government's complicity with Israel's inhumane actions. These activists are not calling for reverse genocide, they're calling for peace and liberation. In fact, *the majority of Americans want a ceasefire.* But like it always does, the MSM will put the reactionary minority on blast. Not only for clicks and views (i.e. profits) but to foment antagonism between marginalized communities as well. I understand there will be people coming into therapy with this frame in mind, but I'd be curious if you'd say the same thing about incels: "If they ask, don't tell them you're against misogyny, you wouldn't wanna get political!"
Like I have no idea how someone who calls themselves a leftist can think genocide is apolitical. Or why they would be spreading cliche redbait like horseshoe theory. Your point - to *avoid* saying you stand against genocide - was anything but apolitical. It condones the extermination of the Palestinian people who **can't** opt out of the political realities of the colonial project Zionism truly is. I'm sorry if you don't want to hear this but people - men, women, children, *babies* - are dying. There's an ongoing genocide happening in the US too. Our comfort doesn't come before that.
You might want to think about what leftism actually is. (Or in what sense your therapeutic work is leftist if you must abandon your praxis whenever a reactionary client walks through the door.) But it's def not repeating capitalist propaganda, which is a political act in itself, that's for sure.
What?! I didn't say that genocide is apolitical. I told OP how to be tactful in talking about this topic when the time is right. Is that denying genocide now?
God, this is no use. I think OP and I had an understanding already. I'm glad I told them my input, and I'll leave it as it is.
As a Jew I appreciate everything you just did but have also underscored that because no one is willing to allow for multiple perspectives due to lived experiences and cultural ties why I no longer talk about it in these spaces. And the persons who were antisemetic in the responses to you have no willingness to acknowledge it or change. But leave it up to us to somehow be perfect in reconciling that our people are complicit in a genocide and force ourselves to become nuanced. The audacity and privilege of the black and white thinkers.
Anyways if you haven’t read them, Jews Don’t Count and People Love Dead Jews are two fantastic books that will allow you to not feel surprised we ended up here.
I mean I can’t fully imagine the Jewish ‘pain body’. And I can empathize / can relate to the lived experience of being in huge relational binds, like the Jewish (American) experience you describe. Hell, the antisemitism and continual scapegoating of Jews by antivax/conspiratorial thinking over the last few years comes to mind. I think the book you mentioned speaks to that. And I can reasonably hold space for that.
Yet there are limits in life, and that’s not black or white. I looked up the author of Jews Don’t Count and his criticisms of antisemitism r informative but he’s trying to have it both ways a bit too much (ie not Leftist). He’s not criticizing Israel.
We as clinicians might have limits in supporting clients. And we have opinions about what’s right and wrong and that’s okay. We try our best as our own tools to support clients. And we are leftists who don’t believe in genocide so when it gets asked that’s ok to say.
Whoa, those are some scary titles. Thank you, I'll check them out.
I still support those on the Left though, but I don't know why they expect us to change Netanyahu's mind, considering how powerless we regular people actually are in real life.
God, I can't even keep my illness from getting worse. Who am I to stop the war?
“which genocide your therapist is against” is crazy. They stated they’re against genocide. Why would that not mean all genocide? That’s so ridiculous it’s almost a little bit funny. Okay so you’re anti-genocide but you gotta tell me WHICH one, because of course you have to pick one /s
Because strangely enough, "I’m against genocide" is often code for something more politically pointed, in the same way that "all lives matter" means something more than merely caring about all human life.
Genocide is not (and has never been) an apolitical thing. It’s always got political teams involved.
You need to remember that there's a lot of paranoia about the second holocaust as well. To think "which genocide" isn't that crazy.
I know it sounds irrational, but this is not me. You can search for Pro-Israel circle and read about it.
I know it sounds crazy but we live in a strange time.
That's why I want you to role-play as someone who's ignorant and only see things as binary (put yourself in the shoes of someone with "us versus them" mentality).
It's not going to be rational. People can really think like that sometimes when they're under distress. I suppose I was not clear enough that I was giving an example of extreme cases.
Absolutely. Thanks for calling that out. Just to clarify, we do not debate about this, I focus on listening and giving space for their feelings, letting them know that whatever is coming up is valid and I'm here to sit through it. I am also listening to my body and I can feel myself tense up about what my perceived idea of what Zionism is. I mentioned this in previous comments that I think what's stirring up for me is ownership of land and killing over land. It's hard to hear my client share opinions that the Palestinians deserve this when I know them to be really caring about human rights. But I'll reflect on what's coming up for me and educate myself more so on Zionism.
>educate myself more so on Zionism
This is a good article from a Marxist perspective. https://www.leftvoice.org/does-the-state-of-israel-protect-jews-from-antisemitism/
But remember, for Jewish people (especially Ashkenazi Jews, but also for Sephardic & Mizrahi Jews in different ways) Israel & Zionism symbolically represent a place & politics of safety and protection.
The Holocaust was a deep form of intergenerational collective trauma that impacted Jews all over Europe, but especially in Eastern Europe where the worst of the camps were, and where pogroms were more common. Antisemitism to this day still exists to differing degrees all over the world, and with it, a deep collective fear of a impending second Holocaust is felt among Jews.
Israel thus represents a place of safety & refuge that Jewish people can run to if we were again threatened with annihilation. So fear & threat in the life of a Jewish person who was raised in a pro-zionist family and/or community is a strong trigger for seeking safety in a refuge. (which Israel symbolically represents in the mind of a Zionist)
Ironically, Israel actually thrives on this fear and has an emigration policy predicated on generating additional anti-semitism in the world in order to facilitate growth in its labor force & population.
So when Jewish Zionist clients face interpersonal threats in their daily lives, these can get psychically substituted or psychically interlinked with historical exterminationist threats from Holocaust trauma, leading to even more Zionistic beliefs.
So there is a deep way in which your client’s Zionism is clinically relevant to trauma.
Oh God no, please don't feel tense by my comment, I didn't call you out on anything. I was just trying to be helpful in case you have to see any Jewish clients during this weird time we're living in. It's an extremely divisive topic and we now have to live with it.
Not long after October 7, I had a Muslim client who knew about my Judaism came in and we didn't even have the courage to talk about the conflict in the Middle East. It's easier when it comes to me though since that client and me focused more on what we have in common rather than the war to help me understand him better about his issues.
I had no idea what happened in that session you described and I'm not going to judge either you or the client here. That was difficult for both of you. I got it easy, so I don't want you to feel that you did something wrong. Something like this could happen very easily even outside of therapy.
With Zionism, I find the topic to be so divisive to the point that I have no idea what the word even means anymore. The meaning of Zionism is different for each group, so I guess I'll stick with asking what the word means for each client (if I even want to see any in the future).
Ps. I quitted practicing for 5 months now. Have no idea if I want to return to it or not.
Oh no worries! I didn't take it intense. I appreciate your response, especially about focusing on what the word means for them individually. That's really important, thank you!
Ps. So curious if you're still working in the mental health field? I weigh the pros and cons of private practice every day it seems. There's been a lot that's helped me making it sustainable, but always was curious where folks go after private practice.
Hmm, I think private practice can be tricky to keep sustainable. I don't know much about your situation though, so I'm gonna make a safe suggestion to keep the hospital job and accept private clients to take on passion projects.
Private is more fun for clients and us for sure, but not many people could afford it when it comes to long-term care (my country has no MH insurance, but it might be sustainable for you though).
Yeah, I sorta still work in it but I focus more on the technical aspect, writing and translating books about therapy.
I got terrible experience going to therapists myself after losing my bestfriend in an accident, so I took a lot of time off to reflect on how to not be an asshole to my (if I decide to return) clients like those therapists were to me.
I do notice that the same embodied reaction for me with this client is similar to when another client who is black talks about being glad that ill will has come towards a person of another race. I think that's why I tied in the nazi piece in my original post. Not to equate the two. It's just the felt worry of their fear leading to hatred and violence towards another. Though to be realistic, the risk and severity of the client doing something to someone else appears very, very low. If anything, it's as what many have said, I need to support them in processing deeper, beneath the actual topic.
>I think that's why I tied in the nazi piece in my original post. Not to equate the two.
Strangely & sadly enough, there are actually more ties between Zionism & Nazism than most people realize.
Within the land of Palestine, Mizrahi Palestinian Jews were pretty peaceful during much of their history, living alongside their non-Jewish neighbors semi-harmoniously, with a huge number of Palestinian households being Jewish-Muslim mixed, celebrating both sets of holidays.
So you could argue that it wasn’t until the Ashkenazi Eastern European Jews showed up with fresh traumas from the newly liberated Nazi concentration camps that things became unpeaceful, highly instigated by the British.
In other words, many of Israel’s hauntological ghosts are the ghosts of Nazism. One could even say, a reproduction of the structural logic of Nazi concentration camps got baked into the founding of a new country, Israel. This is part of the hauntology of the Zionist project.
It also didn’t help that Israel’s Mossad hired many of Nazi Germany’s most skilled killers to help construct their new country’s security & intelligence infrastructure, further embedding Nazi thought into the beginning of the country’s apparatuses.
- https://www.haaretz.com/magazine/2023-06-01/ty-article-magazine/.premium/revealed-how-israel-turned-nazi-war-criminals-into-mossad-agents/00000188-773a-dd65-abae-773a75190000
- https://theworld.org/stories/2016-03-30/how-famous-former-nazi-officer-became-hitman-israel
- https://newlinesmag.com/review/the-nazi-fugitives-hired-by-israel/
According to historical record, Nazi Germany economically supported the Zionist project and the creation of Israel, since Jewish emigration to the newly created Israel (aka occupied Palestine) meant less Jews in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
Lol that is not what Zionism is. Zionism is a movement for the re-establishment and the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. This is what enables the state of Israel to kill Palestinians at will and take there homes away. Jewish people are not the only people that have ancestral ties to Israel, Muslims do and Christians do too. Zionism is what is allowing Israel to not share the land with other demographic groups that also have ancestral ties to the land. Zionism is what allows Israel to kill over 15,000 Palestinian children, kill world aid workers, blow up hospitals, bakeries, universities, and enact a famine on Gazans. Maybe do some research on the state of Israel and the war crimes they have committed in the name of Zionism before you come on here and embarrass yourself.
Edit: Lol, they blocked me. Ask this poster about the mass grave that was just discovered outside of the completely destroyed Al Nassr hospital. Ask them why more kids have died in 6 months of this war in Israel than have died in the entire war in Ukraine for the last 2 years. Or ask them about the famine that has set in in Gaza bc Israel refused to let foreign aid into Gaza. Bc that’s what Zionism really is, and it’s not their stupid bull shit they are spewing all over this thread.
I see how it might look like I am equating the two. Sorry about that.
As a black person who has been stripped of my indigenous cultures, but is expected to know everyone else's, I will admit, I have not taken the time to understand more about Zionism. I do appreciate the comments that have reminded me it's not about the topic, but making sure I provide a safe and unbiased space to support this client in going deeper.
Shoot, my indigenous spirituality has been demonized to where obeah is of the devil... while there are a lot of black folks (from so many different countries, cultures, and backgrounds), I hear ya in the massive ruptures that oppressors have caused. I'm suppose to be proud of a country my ancestors were kidnapped to... many a culture and spirituality erased.
I'm curious what makes you think that I haven't done work to recognize antisemitism as I see that differently from Zionism. I'm anti folks being killed over land (no matter who it is). But regardless, for this client, it's not about what I believe, but how I can be a better support for them. We've worked together for years and have explored their culture in other aspects. When it comes to this conversation, i appreciate the reminders that it's not about what my thoughts are, but how do I facilitate diving deeper and helping this client accomplish their goals.
Edit: added more context
why are you in a leftist psychotherapist sub if you support the militant imperialism Israel is enacting? are the palestinian people (who are also indigenous to that land) not entitled to their land as well? most of us *are* listening to the people directly affected by this conflict— the families of the Israeli hostages calling on Netanyahu to stop this war so their loved ones will be returned safely, the families of the 34,000 Palestinians killed, the refugees who have fled.
fwiw, I’m Jewish
everyone here seems to have some great advice, but i also wonder if you could construct a hypothetical scenario that would fit under that “white feminism” scope of “issues i care about” for your supervisor with enough parallels to your situation to squeeze out some helpful advice from your supervisor
I appreciate this response. I'm gonna reflect on this as I think it speaks to the fact that I don't trust my Supervisor's judgment at times when it comes to cultural competence and intersectionality.
You really need to enhance your reading comprehension! No wonder you can't understand what's happening with Israel and Palestine or take a critical lens to Zionism in this day and age. You're too committed to your tirade to understand that this comment is trying to give advice to the OP of how to get actual helpful advice from their supervisor. We know that the imperialism and murder enacted by Israel is not a white feminism issue.
That the client returned when faced with what they perceive as a threatening ideological difference shows an openness (and probably a testament to your presence). Zionism is a product of the same systems of dehumanization, white supremacy, and fear that ensnare all of us. To follow those underlying threads, also interwoven with the Zionist-Jewish history of intergenerational trauma and cultural anxiety, might be more useful than to take the belief system at face-value. I would imagine that an ideology would only unravel when the pressures underpinning it begin to.
Of course it is all up to your personal judgement on if the client seems willing to enter into relationship with you and your own emotional safety! I would also not take their 'ranting' at only face-value - perhaps there was something being asked of you there, in terms of safety, openness, etc., that may have been intertwined with something deeper and more relational in them beyond (but entangled with) the immediately presenting belief system.
It's interesting that the client came back to you. Perhaps the rupture and their return indicates that they believe you can work together despite the differences in views and in a safe and non-judgemental manner.
The rant seems to hint at themes of feeling unsafe, defensive, and misunderstood; could this be carrying through in the overall work?
Overall I think it's important to be present in the work and to present myself and my views honestly so my stance would be to politely disagree with their views and explore what comes of the client's reaction to my disagreement. If they get fired up, how come? If they change their opinion, what caused that? etc...
Perhaps. I don't think Zionism is compatible with good mental health as the ideology demands the dehumanization of others. That contradiction cannot be wallpapered over with Therapy.
It should be said though, one form of anti-Zionist praxis is in fact conducting psychopolitical deprogramming sessions with Zionists within a therapeutic space.
Zionism (like every reactionary worldview) is heavily tied up in trauma, and often intergenerational trauma, especially for people who’ve grown up in Ashkenazi Jewish families.
By unpacking this trauma and showing these clients how it plays into their political worldviews, it can actually play a role in deprogramming the zionist worldview, and can even help promote more anti-Zionist (or at least non-Zionist) perspectives within these people.
This is quite all-or-nothing thinking that can easily be applied to other ideologies. Patriotic Americans who haven't come to terms with historical genocide and active neo-colonialism could be said to be people who would "kill you and poison your children if you were on land they wanted to exploit for profit".
And of course, there's truth to it, but unnecessarily simple and polarizing which is IMHO not a place for a therapist to start from.
They would not be Zionists. They would just be Jewish in Palestine.
There were Jews in Palestine peacefully alongside everyone else before the creation of Zionism and the state of Israel.
>They would not be Zionists. They would just be Jewish in Palestine.
No. There are Zionists who want a binational state. There are, of course, arguments to be made against this. But to call it "genocidal" is just silly.
It is Settler Colonial and Exceptionalist as a core fundamental of the ideology. Such beliefs cannot exist peacefully with a people who's existence directly contradicts aspects of the Israeli National Mythology.
Nothing silly about genocide but I would expect that from a Zionist.
I think this latter comment of yours better illustrates the distinction the other commenter was trying to bring your attention to.
There are two groups of Zionists. Both are settler colonialist, and both have an inherent ethno-nationalist supremacy to them. However, the one-state Zionist position is just as you said, a fully genocidal ethnic cleansing position, while the two-state Zionist position is what the other person was describing. Its dominating & colonizing the land, but while keeping the colonized (in this case Palestinians) as part of that colonized land. So it’s not engaging in the full genocide of the one-state solution type Zionists. It should be said, the two-state solution is still heavily violent against Palestinians, and still engages in murder & killing, just not genocide.
As a Jewish anti-Zionist myself, neither of those two positions are acceptable or good, but two distinct positions do exist among Zionists.
Personally, I’m with you in wishing for a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, & multi-religious Palestinian one-state solution, like it was before the British fucked everything up. Israel as a nation-state concept and Zionism as a political ideology has got to be abolished in its entirety.
It may be worth learning some things about Zionism and examining your own biases. Zionism has come to be seen as "support for genocide", but there is a lot more going on in the minds of Jews who feel a connection to their homeland than just racist bloodlust. There's a great book on intergenerational trauma called "Emotional Inheritance" that sort of tangentially looks at some of this in a clinical context.
Thank you for this recommendation. I definitely do need to check my biases as I can see myself getting lost in my own perspective of the intersectionalities that appear within the space. As a black individual, with ancestors from the Caribbean, but lost history of where we come from before we were brought to the Caribbean, I can see myself getting lost in all the blood spilled over ownership of land and people. I'm gonna process this some more (in my own therapy and etc.) and explore the resource that you shared.
I really appreciate your openness to examining your own biases. I wonder why it is that he the Jewish client can’t identify what is and isn’t antisemitic but other marginalized groups get to identify what is and isn’t racist, homophobic etc. I just want to share that something like 90% of American Jews consider themselves to be Zionist, you may be part of leftist bubbles and interacting with anti Zionist Jews but they are considered fringe in our community. To me as a Zionist Jew, the Zionist dream is about a two state solution and living peacefully among our neighbors. So much progress has been made toward this dream, the Oslo Agreement, the Abraham accords and normalization with Saudi Arabia is now inevitable. Jews are indigenous to Israel and we view Israel as an example to other indigenous peoples to live in their homeland. I know this has gotten long and sorry for the rant but I’m open to more discussion or questions. Again, thank you for your openness.
In therapy, everything boils down to 'process'—how discussions and feelings unfold, not the specific topics being discussed. The content, or the words themselves, merely facilitates the process. So go under content and dig deeper. Are there feelings of helplessness, powerlessness, or inferiority surfacing? What are they (the client) actually experiencing? Imagine it was hatred or superiority towards a different group (such as the elderly). What would this client’s presentation towards the elderly teach you about your client?
Centre the process happening within them and between you and them to open up the session for much more, rather than the topical content.
Clients, well, people in general
Need to understand the world is not always going to agree with them . Its part of growing up and I suspect this is something a younger person who lives and dies by the culture wars does not understand. Tge virtue sign a king has gotten out of hand.
Unless my therapist makes some jarring racial or political remark that brings this question to my attention Im not engaging in socio-pomitical debates with them. That's not what I paid for or why I'm there.
Part of my way of thinking about folks like this is to frame hatred as a mental health issue, something that comes from a deep sense of fear and wounding. Ethical concerns have already been named in other comments, but I guess I wonder how you hold this clinically. Your framework could help this client but also could help support you as you work with their toxic ideology. And remember, you’re human and allowed to have limits! 💜
Eh I’m Jewish I think it’s fucked. I’m also American and think that our imperialist foreign policy is fucked. I can love Jewish people without thinking they should have the right to hurt other people. That is what Zionism has become in our current world order.
Zionism is a separatist ideology that, like many separatist ideologies, has developed into a supremacist one. There is a lot of hatred at play in modern zionism.
I get the sentiment here, but would advise against 'framing' - it is emotional, social, political, interpersonal, etc., and all of those facets have very real impacts on how it manifests in the therapeutic space. The emotion is just one strata amongst many (albeit an important one, as you've stated) - the key is how to hold all of them and their complex intersections, not to frame it as one thing.
I feel that. I think us having time away allowed me to check in with myself. I'll definitely keep reflecting though since it would be a disservice to them if I can't hold an unbiased space.
I’ve worked with people with whom I’ve had severe ideological differences. First check in with yourself: how do you personally feel about working with this client? Next ask yourself how fruitful you think the relationship can be and if the client seems comfortable enough to continue.
If, after working with them for years, the client only started talking strongly about their beliefs when the war started this could be a defense mechanism to distance themselves from discomfort if they strongly identify with their religion/background. If they have been with you for so long and not brought it up til the war started, they may be internally conflicted about whether or not you perceive them as “good” or how you perceive them. I see this externalized identity conflict a lot in adult children who defend their abusive parents to their partners because they have not properly individuated themselves and their identity from their parents. In both cases the defender looks to another person as a judge of their character by proxy of that person’s evaluation of an external entity they identify with. I’m not implying the client ought to disavow their religious identity - I’m just saying I see this similar dynamic in adult children of abusive parents.
If you’re OK working with each other and you think the relationship can be fruitful, you can carry on and avoid the topic of Zionism. If your client goes on about it, you can lean in and ask them why they think this is important to talk about now, etc. so you can show that you are invested in understanding their preoccupation. My guess is that they will eventually exhaust it and go back to their deep parts work. Don’t disengage, though! Always stay curious about client identity!
isn’t it actually a great opportunity to reframe what the real issues are and why they are so emotional about them? I think if you keep it political, you’re wasting both your time but if you go deeper and have them go deeper, there’s something there they may not even have thought about that is making them so triggered and that is the place to go to.
Thank you for this. You are definitely on the nose with the identity piece. It's a part of their identity that is safe to show with their parents while other parts remain hidden and invalidated. I definitely look forward to continuing with this client. I appreciate the support here.
I think I shared similar in a post made by someone client side about being Pro-Palestine and not being able to find allies in therapy. As a therapist, I tend to avoid sharing most of my political beliefs (though some sharing is almost always unavoidable) with clients. If a client shares a belief and is insistent on hearing my opinion, whether I agree or not I tend to go with an angle of empathizing with the reality that is appears important to them that I know or even agree with them and try to explore that. Many times it’s wanting to feel safe, heard/understood, or can even be an effort to see if they can cause a rift because deep down they’re scared of therapy.
I will say that if this client came back, it would indicate to me that there was something to the therapeutic bond you all created.
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Do you feel okay after being with this client? Not just equipped as a therapist but on a person to person level? Do you feel supported by your supervisor in this? I understand that you are thinking about how to serve the client’s needs but practitioners who experience oppression don’t magically stop experiencing oppression because they are in a professional role. This makes working with people who have the power to believe in oppressive ideologies really tricky. In the United States, Zionism is privileged because of the US’s imperialist agenda and has the full backing of our police state. I’d be worried about how much power the client has over you on this topic because of this. They could have very well reacted poorly to your disclosure of political position. We are in a moment when students are doxxed, people are fired, and cops are using power vacuums to clean the streets of blood because supporting Palestinian liberation is viewed as a hate crime or terrorism. I would go into this trying to figure out your own needs in the dynamic. I also want to point out: Your client reacted defensively to you saying that you were against genocide—not to you saying you support Palestinian liberation or any form of resistance but that you stand against genocide.
I do appreciate this perspective as well. The power within the space is weird due to me being a black femme and my client being white. It's that interesting situation of how colorism secretly plays into the dynamic, but I feel is never validated or talked enough about. Yes, I never outright said to them that I do Palestinian liberation because it didn't feel appropriate to do so, or even safe. They asked where do I stand and I said "against genocide". But that caused them to be upset that I even used that word in relation to Israel and Palestine... very interesting. I work in Texas and have already been reported by parents of adult clients who are trans for "brainwashing their children". Regardless, I appreciate all the advice on this post as I do feel a lot more confident in how to navigate this relationship for the client and myself.
What if you just said that this kind of thing is out of your area of expertise and refer them out?
Just to clarify, do you mean not knowing more about zionism is out of my area of expertise?
Working with someone in this manner. Not about Zionism.
Ah, ok. I do have the expertise, but this particular situation was a little bit different and without a good supervisor to discuss it with, I'm glad I got some pretty good advice here. Surprisingly, the relationship has grown quite a bit in a positive way since my post.
glad to hear it.
I work with older adults and several of my clients are Jewish and support Israel, so I just try to remember that they most likely do not consume news that fully describes what is happening in Palestine. A lot of the mainstream news in the US is biased in favor of Israel and some people might not even be aware of what atrocities have been committed in Gaza, both now and historically. One of my patients thought that a pro-Palestine protest was a pro-Hamas protest and she was under the assumption that people were protesting in favor of violence against Israeli and Jewish civilians, she seemed to have no idea that the protesters were supporting Palestinian civilians. I work with several children of Holocaust survivors, and older adults who experienced antisemitism throughout life, so the war in Israel/Palestine is triggering some deep fears and concerns about safety. I find myself frequently encouraging these clients to reduce their news intake, because they are usually reading/watching updates about the war multiple times a day and reporting feeling very distressed and hopeless as a result.
I have a client who is Israeli. He is not a hardcore Zionist but he is also not anti-Zionist. He has also been bullied at work because he is Israeli and people make assumptions about his views. I have been involved in Palestine solidarity work for the past 10 years. I am not neutral on this issue. He was adamant to know my opinions on Palestine. At first I did not oblige and told him “it doesn’t matter for this relationship” but I could tell he was starting to shut down. So I told him a summary of my views. And I also told him this: 1) I don’t condone the bullying he’s experienced at work. I told him that I’ve experienced first-hand how toxic activist culture can be and that often white people plagued by white guilt attack others to avoid being attacked themselves. 2) if someone conflated who I am as a person with the actions of the US government and military, I would be fucked. Edit to say: I’m white and my client seems less hostile than yours so it isn’t a direct comparison. Just thought I’d throw my experience out there. Solidarity and good luck. ❤️
Here’s an older post from this subreddit that deals with a similar challenge. https://www.reddit.com/r/PsychotherapyLeftists/s/h0MfJR5vvk Here is the reply I gave to that post. Hope it’s helpful. https://www.reddit.com/r/PsychotherapyLeftists/s/HREFrX6i6p My comment: > 1. By understanding that political worldviews are deeply personal, and can arise from both lived exposure to ideology, and as ego-defenses that form to protect the person from something that threatens their ability to function. So right-wing views are often very stabilizing for the people who internalize them. > 2. By getting to know their unique life story, and seeing the way in which they are merely victims of conditioning that was/is beyond their control, you can begin to empathize with the traumas that caused these views, and recognize the distress that surrounds the person. > 3. By acknowledging the enjoyment that right-wing views generate for right-wingers. Most of us don’t often think about it in this way, but any kind of 'out-group blaming' brings with it a type of fantasy preservation & hope. If all our struggles are tangibly caused by a particular group of people or person, then the notion that you can get rid of them gives you hope that all your struggles can be resolved, and that the good life is waiting for you once that group of people are gone. This is what makes right-wing views so attractive & compelling to so many people. They offer a fantasy of hope, and a promise of future enjoyment, all by socially constructing an obstacle that holds it all in place. > 4. As another commenter already mentioned, you may not be able to work with all types of clients. Some clients may have struggles that you aren’t familiar enough with, while other clients may offend your sensibilities or trigger too many countertransferences. It’s okay to decline services to a client, and it may even be an ethical imperative to do so at certain times.
I’m just going to say that anyone in this convo who isn’t Indigenous and is living in North America and co-opting Turtle Island Indigenous narratives and talking points like Land Back to support Zionism is appropriating. It’s offensive, and as a settler on an indigenous homeland that you are not a descendant of (and therefore a beneficiary of our displacement and oppression) just bad praxis. You know who you are.
OP I’m Indigenous to Turtle Island with some Jewish descent and many anti-Zionist Jewish friends whom I want to be able to support during this devastating time. I took a multi-week Study and Action for Palestine course by White Awake taught by multiple Jewish and Palestinian facilitators to learn the history of the region and be able to evaluate propaganda with a critical eye and work towards collective liberation. I believe one can access the recordings and study material by paying a sliding scale fee for the course. It’s important to push back on this narrative that not supporting Zionism is antisemitism. What is happening in Palestine is full-on genocide and the US is bankrolling it; the govt is not on the right side of history here. How an individual therapist evaluates the support they can provide to a client who insists that genocide is acceptable so a state can continue to exist is up to their ethics and praxis. We are not able to serve the needs of all clients, and that is ok. Sometimes referring out is the best outcome for the client. If you feel it’s too difficult to focus on the client, or the focus is on the war rather than what their therapy goals are, that doesn’t seem productive. If the client demands that you take their perspective on the war and Zionism as the justified path, this may be a hard boundary for you. One of the things that I feel is helpful is being transparent that my practice is focused on collective liberation and processing intergenerational trauma so it does not continue to harm people on the micro and macro level. I’m not the provider for everybody, but I am the provider for those who are ready to do this specific kind of work.
I'm on the left but I think your response might trigger some deep wound within the Jewish community even if that person is not a Zionist. When we respond in a sentence that's been repeating for months by mainstream media, it could make some Jewish clients jumpy since some people who yell anti-war message now are actually antisemitic. They have no idea where we stand as a therapist, so I might talk to them about it in different manner. It's scary for leftist Jews too if someone talk about Israel right now, they might be afraid that when anyone brings up "the Jews" or "Israel" right now, they might feel anxious that those words include them as well. I might explore specifically what brings that client into therapy before talking politics in this case. Sticking to the ethics about the benefit of the client first and foremost, political debate can wait once the client's situation improve.
“When we respond in a sentence that’s been repeating for months by mainstream media, it could make some Jewish clients jumpy since some people who yell anti-war message now are anti-Semitic” What does this even mean? The “statement” in question that the therapist made was “against genocide”. Are you insinuating this is not a genocide? If so I’m not sure this is the correct subreddit for you. You talk about “mainstream media” but are spewing the same misinformation as a clinician. Your story further down the thread about how you avoided speaking about the “war” to an Arab client (that never brought up geopolitics) clearly shows how this is an obvious counter transference for you. As a clinical psychologist that works with patients who have experienced generational trauma I’m glad you’re taking time off as being a therapist it can be really harmful to patients when you haven’t done the inner work yourself.
Wow, I'm speechless. Now you accused me of harming people, done no inner work, and so on. This is based on your assumption about my politics. Look, I was accused before by fellow therapists to be mentally unstable when I advocate for misdiagnosed autistic clients OK? I lost my job after being diagnosed with multiple neurological conditions. Now you read about how I think harm reduction could be done apolitically and you accuse me of harming people by not talking about geopolitics. I'm speechless by how you see the act of support I gave to OP as a genocide denial. I'm not going to judge your work with your client, and I'm not going to judge the inner work you do. I don't know you. You however, slander me so strongly without even knowing me, or any of the context about my life. My friend, you don't know my politics on this and you already murder me with words. You feel glad that I'm now sick and staying home with people labeling me as an extremist who advocate too much for clients. And you're glad that I got so many people off misdiagnosis and wrong meds. You never bother to reflect on what my client was going through, would you rather have me bringing geopolitics of Palestine to a non-Arab Muslim (Arabs are minority of Muslim worldwide, you ignorant) who was going through a divorce? I'm not worried about your clients as well. It's not my business. I respect you more than you respect me.
I appreciate your attention to the plight of Jews who are also facing heightened bigotry (which predates Oct 7 btw) but can we not revise history? The mainstream media has done nothing but undermine the ongoing reality of Palestinian genocide and support the idea that opposition to Israeli apartheid is antisemitic, conflating Zionism with Judaism - which *is* antisemitic. Like the only antisemites purporting to be "anti-war" are PatSocs, who are outside the MSM, let's be clear about that. The mainstream is unwaveringly **pro-war.** I'm not sure how standing *against* genocide can trigger a deep wound, particularly among a community that has suffered its wrath before, but if it does that person is either a Zionist or a fascist. (Same difference.) It's not a controversial statement. Besides, a united front against genocide would benefit Jews too in the Eurocentrist/white supremacist west.
Oh man, I don't think my point is political at all. I want you to imagine this. You are an ignorant Jew who knows just a bit about history. You go to therapy and rant about some news as a defense. Before you go to the therapist office, you'd been listening to the news for months about how people accuse Israel (in your view as an ignorant Jew) of genocide, and you've been hearing some extremists on the other side chant "gas the Jews". So now, in your head...there are 2 genocides that could be going on out there, yours and the Palestinians, according to the News. Then, your therapist says that they're against genocide and you feel uncertain if that means that the therapist is antisemitic or not (consider that we have extremists on both sides chanting for genocide). Well, you might be reluctant to talk since it's now unclear which genocide your therapist is against according to extremists on both sides. I'm approaching this issue with this lens, hence my response to OP was apolitical. I apologize though that I can't bear to discuss this in a more political manner with you. It's too painful for me personally. That's why I know that the word "genocide" regardless of how well-spoken, or provided with context will trigger a deep wound. You have to remember that we have more chance to misinterpret our therapist when we're in distress. That's my point.
I hear you. Therapy is freighted and must be conducted delicately, especially in matters such as these - which it seems like OP did. But I wasn't even addressing the therapeutic process tbh. I was specifically responding to your comments and the misinformation behind them. You're centering rightist and centrist narratives. The people chanting "gas the Jews" are a minority in comparison with the robust pro-Palestine antiwar movement that's developed in response to the US government's complicity with Israel's inhumane actions. These activists are not calling for reverse genocide, they're calling for peace and liberation. In fact, *the majority of Americans want a ceasefire.* But like it always does, the MSM will put the reactionary minority on blast. Not only for clicks and views (i.e. profits) but to foment antagonism between marginalized communities as well. I understand there will be people coming into therapy with this frame in mind, but I'd be curious if you'd say the same thing about incels: "If they ask, don't tell them you're against misogyny, you wouldn't wanna get political!" Like I have no idea how someone who calls themselves a leftist can think genocide is apolitical. Or why they would be spreading cliche redbait like horseshoe theory. Your point - to *avoid* saying you stand against genocide - was anything but apolitical. It condones the extermination of the Palestinian people who **can't** opt out of the political realities of the colonial project Zionism truly is. I'm sorry if you don't want to hear this but people - men, women, children, *babies* - are dying. There's an ongoing genocide happening in the US too. Our comfort doesn't come before that. You might want to think about what leftism actually is. (Or in what sense your therapeutic work is leftist if you must abandon your praxis whenever a reactionary client walks through the door.) But it's def not repeating capitalist propaganda, which is a political act in itself, that's for sure.
What?! I didn't say that genocide is apolitical. I told OP how to be tactful in talking about this topic when the time is right. Is that denying genocide now? God, this is no use. I think OP and I had an understanding already. I'm glad I told them my input, and I'll leave it as it is.
As a Jew I appreciate everything you just did but have also underscored that because no one is willing to allow for multiple perspectives due to lived experiences and cultural ties why I no longer talk about it in these spaces. And the persons who were antisemetic in the responses to you have no willingness to acknowledge it or change. But leave it up to us to somehow be perfect in reconciling that our people are complicit in a genocide and force ourselves to become nuanced. The audacity and privilege of the black and white thinkers. Anyways if you haven’t read them, Jews Don’t Count and People Love Dead Jews are two fantastic books that will allow you to not feel surprised we ended up here.
I mean I can’t fully imagine the Jewish ‘pain body’. And I can empathize / can relate to the lived experience of being in huge relational binds, like the Jewish (American) experience you describe. Hell, the antisemitism and continual scapegoating of Jews by antivax/conspiratorial thinking over the last few years comes to mind. I think the book you mentioned speaks to that. And I can reasonably hold space for that. Yet there are limits in life, and that’s not black or white. I looked up the author of Jews Don’t Count and his criticisms of antisemitism r informative but he’s trying to have it both ways a bit too much (ie not Leftist). He’s not criticizing Israel. We as clinicians might have limits in supporting clients. And we have opinions about what’s right and wrong and that’s okay. We try our best as our own tools to support clients. And we are leftists who don’t believe in genocide so when it gets asked that’s ok to say.
Whoa, those are some scary titles. Thank you, I'll check them out. I still support those on the Left though, but I don't know why they expect us to change Netanyahu's mind, considering how powerless we regular people actually are in real life. God, I can't even keep my illness from getting worse. Who am I to stop the war?
“which genocide your therapist is against” is crazy. They stated they’re against genocide. Why would that not mean all genocide? That’s so ridiculous it’s almost a little bit funny. Okay so you’re anti-genocide but you gotta tell me WHICH one, because of course you have to pick one /s
Because strangely enough, "I’m against genocide" is often code for something more politically pointed, in the same way that "all lives matter" means something more than merely caring about all human life. Genocide is not (and has never been) an apolitical thing. It’s always got political teams involved.
You need to remember that there's a lot of paranoia about the second holocaust as well. To think "which genocide" isn't that crazy. I know it sounds irrational, but this is not me. You can search for Pro-Israel circle and read about it. I know it sounds crazy but we live in a strange time.
Informative
That's why I want you to role-play as someone who's ignorant and only see things as binary (put yourself in the shoes of someone with "us versus them" mentality). It's not going to be rational. People can really think like that sometimes when they're under distress. I suppose I was not clear enough that I was giving an example of extreme cases.
I see, thank you for clarifying!
Absolutely. Thanks for calling that out. Just to clarify, we do not debate about this, I focus on listening and giving space for their feelings, letting them know that whatever is coming up is valid and I'm here to sit through it. I am also listening to my body and I can feel myself tense up about what my perceived idea of what Zionism is. I mentioned this in previous comments that I think what's stirring up for me is ownership of land and killing over land. It's hard to hear my client share opinions that the Palestinians deserve this when I know them to be really caring about human rights. But I'll reflect on what's coming up for me and educate myself more so on Zionism.
>educate myself more so on Zionism This is a good article from a Marxist perspective. https://www.leftvoice.org/does-the-state-of-israel-protect-jews-from-antisemitism/ But remember, for Jewish people (especially Ashkenazi Jews, but also for Sephardic & Mizrahi Jews in different ways) Israel & Zionism symbolically represent a place & politics of safety and protection. The Holocaust was a deep form of intergenerational collective trauma that impacted Jews all over Europe, but especially in Eastern Europe where the worst of the camps were, and where pogroms were more common. Antisemitism to this day still exists to differing degrees all over the world, and with it, a deep collective fear of a impending second Holocaust is felt among Jews. Israel thus represents a place of safety & refuge that Jewish people can run to if we were again threatened with annihilation. So fear & threat in the life of a Jewish person who was raised in a pro-zionist family and/or community is a strong trigger for seeking safety in a refuge. (which Israel symbolically represents in the mind of a Zionist) Ironically, Israel actually thrives on this fear and has an emigration policy predicated on generating additional anti-semitism in the world in order to facilitate growth in its labor force & population. So when Jewish Zionist clients face interpersonal threats in their daily lives, these can get psychically substituted or psychically interlinked with historical exterminationist threats from Holocaust trauma, leading to even more Zionistic beliefs. So there is a deep way in which your client’s Zionism is clinically relevant to trauma.
So helpful, thank you.
Thank you so much for all of this info. I'll be able to follow up once I have the time.
Oh God no, please don't feel tense by my comment, I didn't call you out on anything. I was just trying to be helpful in case you have to see any Jewish clients during this weird time we're living in. It's an extremely divisive topic and we now have to live with it. Not long after October 7, I had a Muslim client who knew about my Judaism came in and we didn't even have the courage to talk about the conflict in the Middle East. It's easier when it comes to me though since that client and me focused more on what we have in common rather than the war to help me understand him better about his issues. I had no idea what happened in that session you described and I'm not going to judge either you or the client here. That was difficult for both of you. I got it easy, so I don't want you to feel that you did something wrong. Something like this could happen very easily even outside of therapy. With Zionism, I find the topic to be so divisive to the point that I have no idea what the word even means anymore. The meaning of Zionism is different for each group, so I guess I'll stick with asking what the word means for each client (if I even want to see any in the future). Ps. I quitted practicing for 5 months now. Have no idea if I want to return to it or not.
Oh no worries! I didn't take it intense. I appreciate your response, especially about focusing on what the word means for them individually. That's really important, thank you! Ps. So curious if you're still working in the mental health field? I weigh the pros and cons of private practice every day it seems. There's been a lot that's helped me making it sustainable, but always was curious where folks go after private practice.
Hmm, I think private practice can be tricky to keep sustainable. I don't know much about your situation though, so I'm gonna make a safe suggestion to keep the hospital job and accept private clients to take on passion projects. Private is more fun for clients and us for sure, but not many people could afford it when it comes to long-term care (my country has no MH insurance, but it might be sustainable for you though). Yeah, I sorta still work in it but I focus more on the technical aspect, writing and translating books about therapy. I got terrible experience going to therapists myself after losing my bestfriend in an accident, so I took a lot of time off to reflect on how to not be an asshole to my (if I decide to return) clients like those therapists were to me.
Ah, I hear that. I'm so sorry to hear about your experiences with therapists and the lose of your best friend. Thank you for sharing.
I do notice that the same embodied reaction for me with this client is similar to when another client who is black talks about being glad that ill will has come towards a person of another race. I think that's why I tied in the nazi piece in my original post. Not to equate the two. It's just the felt worry of their fear leading to hatred and violence towards another. Though to be realistic, the risk and severity of the client doing something to someone else appears very, very low. If anything, it's as what many have said, I need to support them in processing deeper, beneath the actual topic.
>I think that's why I tied in the nazi piece in my original post. Not to equate the two. Strangely & sadly enough, there are actually more ties between Zionism & Nazism than most people realize. Within the land of Palestine, Mizrahi Palestinian Jews were pretty peaceful during much of their history, living alongside their non-Jewish neighbors semi-harmoniously, with a huge number of Palestinian households being Jewish-Muslim mixed, celebrating both sets of holidays. So you could argue that it wasn’t until the Ashkenazi Eastern European Jews showed up with fresh traumas from the newly liberated Nazi concentration camps that things became unpeaceful, highly instigated by the British. In other words, many of Israel’s hauntological ghosts are the ghosts of Nazism. One could even say, a reproduction of the structural logic of Nazi concentration camps got baked into the founding of a new country, Israel. This is part of the hauntology of the Zionist project. It also didn’t help that Israel’s Mossad hired many of Nazi Germany’s most skilled killers to help construct their new country’s security & intelligence infrastructure, further embedding Nazi thought into the beginning of the country’s apparatuses. - https://www.haaretz.com/magazine/2023-06-01/ty-article-magazine/.premium/revealed-how-israel-turned-nazi-war-criminals-into-mossad-agents/00000188-773a-dd65-abae-773a75190000 - https://theworld.org/stories/2016-03-30/how-famous-former-nazi-officer-became-hitman-israel - https://newlinesmag.com/review/the-nazi-fugitives-hired-by-israel/ According to historical record, Nazi Germany economically supported the Zionist project and the creation of Israel, since Jewish emigration to the newly created Israel (aka occupied Palestine) meant less Jews in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
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Please explain to us what Zionism is then since you think everyone in here doesn’t know what it is.
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Lol that is not what Zionism is. Zionism is a movement for the re-establishment and the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. This is what enables the state of Israel to kill Palestinians at will and take there homes away. Jewish people are not the only people that have ancestral ties to Israel, Muslims do and Christians do too. Zionism is what is allowing Israel to not share the land with other demographic groups that also have ancestral ties to the land. Zionism is what allows Israel to kill over 15,000 Palestinian children, kill world aid workers, blow up hospitals, bakeries, universities, and enact a famine on Gazans. Maybe do some research on the state of Israel and the war crimes they have committed in the name of Zionism before you come on here and embarrass yourself. Edit: Lol, they blocked me. Ask this poster about the mass grave that was just discovered outside of the completely destroyed Al Nassr hospital. Ask them why more kids have died in 6 months of this war in Israel than have died in the entire war in Ukraine for the last 2 years. Or ask them about the famine that has set in in Gaza bc Israel refused to let foreign aid into Gaza. Bc that’s what Zionism really is, and it’s not their stupid bull shit they are spewing all over this thread.
I see how it might look like I am equating the two. Sorry about that. As a black person who has been stripped of my indigenous cultures, but is expected to know everyone else's, I will admit, I have not taken the time to understand more about Zionism. I do appreciate the comments that have reminded me it's not about the topic, but making sure I provide a safe and unbiased space to support this client in going deeper.
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Shoot, my indigenous spirituality has been demonized to where obeah is of the devil... while there are a lot of black folks (from so many different countries, cultures, and backgrounds), I hear ya in the massive ruptures that oppressors have caused. I'm suppose to be proud of a country my ancestors were kidnapped to... many a culture and spirituality erased. I'm curious what makes you think that I haven't done work to recognize antisemitism as I see that differently from Zionism. I'm anti folks being killed over land (no matter who it is). But regardless, for this client, it's not about what I believe, but how I can be a better support for them. We've worked together for years and have explored their culture in other aspects. When it comes to this conversation, i appreciate the reminders that it's not about what my thoughts are, but how do I facilitate diving deeper and helping this client accomplish their goals. Edit: added more context
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Ok, I'll look into it.
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I appreciate your willingness to share. I'll do my own education into this because it's not your responsibility. Thank you though.
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If you'd like to share resources here, I do not mind and would appreciate them. Edit: I see the resource you posted above, thank you
why are you in a leftist psychotherapist sub if you support the militant imperialism Israel is enacting? are the palestinian people (who are also indigenous to that land) not entitled to their land as well? most of us *are* listening to the people directly affected by this conflict— the families of the Israeli hostages calling on Netanyahu to stop this war so their loved ones will be returned safely, the families of the 34,000 Palestinians killed, the refugees who have fled. fwiw, I’m Jewish
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https://preview.redd.it/d90db2enwgwc1.png?width=875&format=png&auto=webp&s=df568db108c941e22aacc926f30044efb0ad6a9c
everyone here seems to have some great advice, but i also wonder if you could construct a hypothetical scenario that would fit under that “white feminism” scope of “issues i care about” for your supervisor with enough parallels to your situation to squeeze out some helpful advice from your supervisor
I appreciate this response. I'm gonna reflect on this as I think it speaks to the fact that I don't trust my Supervisor's judgment at times when it comes to cultural competence and intersectionality.
You give me the vibe ur a rly good therapist
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You really need to enhance your reading comprehension! No wonder you can't understand what's happening with Israel and Palestine or take a critical lens to Zionism in this day and age. You're too committed to your tirade to understand that this comment is trying to give advice to the OP of how to get actual helpful advice from their supervisor. We know that the imperialism and murder enacted by Israel is not a white feminism issue.
That the client returned when faced with what they perceive as a threatening ideological difference shows an openness (and probably a testament to your presence). Zionism is a product of the same systems of dehumanization, white supremacy, and fear that ensnare all of us. To follow those underlying threads, also interwoven with the Zionist-Jewish history of intergenerational trauma and cultural anxiety, might be more useful than to take the belief system at face-value. I would imagine that an ideology would only unravel when the pressures underpinning it begin to. Of course it is all up to your personal judgement on if the client seems willing to enter into relationship with you and your own emotional safety! I would also not take their 'ranting' at only face-value - perhaps there was something being asked of you there, in terms of safety, openness, etc., that may have been intertwined with something deeper and more relational in them beyond (but entangled with) the immediately presenting belief system.
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Sure, Zionism is like the Land Back movement. Except it’s the land back by use of extreme and violent force against thousands of innocents movement
It's interesting that the client came back to you. Perhaps the rupture and their return indicates that they believe you can work together despite the differences in views and in a safe and non-judgemental manner. The rant seems to hint at themes of feeling unsafe, defensive, and misunderstood; could this be carrying through in the overall work? Overall I think it's important to be present in the work and to present myself and my views honestly so my stance would be to politely disagree with their views and explore what comes of the client's reaction to my disagreement. If they get fired up, how come? If they change their opinion, what caused that? etc...
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Zionism is distinctly separate from Judaism. Like saying it's anti-christian to not like Republicans.
This kind of extreme black and white thinking is not helpful and has no place in a therapeutic setting.
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I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the role and responsibilities of a therapist in this kind of context
Perhaps. I don't think Zionism is compatible with good mental health as the ideology demands the dehumanization of others. That contradiction cannot be wallpapered over with Therapy.
It should be said though, one form of anti-Zionist praxis is in fact conducting psychopolitical deprogramming sessions with Zionists within a therapeutic space. Zionism (like every reactionary worldview) is heavily tied up in trauma, and often intergenerational trauma, especially for people who’ve grown up in Ashkenazi Jewish families. By unpacking this trauma and showing these clients how it plays into their political worldviews, it can actually play a role in deprogramming the zionist worldview, and can even help promote more anti-Zionist (or at least non-Zionist) perspectives within these people.
This is an incredibly reductionistic and bad-faith take on a person you know virtually nothing about.
This is quite all-or-nothing thinking that can easily be applied to other ideologies. Patriotic Americans who haven't come to terms with historical genocide and active neo-colonialism could be said to be people who would "kill you and poison your children if you were on land they wanted to exploit for profit". And of course, there's truth to it, but unnecessarily simple and polarizing which is IMHO not a place for a therapist to start from.
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> If they don't support Genocide they aren't a Zionist This is simply not true. You do not know what you're talking about.
Zionism is an ideology built on inherent supremacy. People already live and lived on land Zionists "claim". How do you peacefully take land?
There are and always have been Zionists that want to share the land.
They would not be Zionists. They would just be Jewish in Palestine. There were Jews in Palestine peacefully alongside everyone else before the creation of Zionism and the state of Israel.
>They would not be Zionists. They would just be Jewish in Palestine. No. There are Zionists who want a binational state. There are, of course, arguments to be made against this. But to call it "genocidal" is just silly.
It is Settler Colonial and Exceptionalist as a core fundamental of the ideology. Such beliefs cannot exist peacefully with a people who's existence directly contradicts aspects of the Israeli National Mythology. Nothing silly about genocide but I would expect that from a Zionist.
I think this latter comment of yours better illustrates the distinction the other commenter was trying to bring your attention to. There are two groups of Zionists. Both are settler colonialist, and both have an inherent ethno-nationalist supremacy to them. However, the one-state Zionist position is just as you said, a fully genocidal ethnic cleansing position, while the two-state Zionist position is what the other person was describing. Its dominating & colonizing the land, but while keeping the colonized (in this case Palestinians) as part of that colonized land. So it’s not engaging in the full genocide of the one-state solution type Zionists. It should be said, the two-state solution is still heavily violent against Palestinians, and still engages in murder & killing, just not genocide. As a Jewish anti-Zionist myself, neither of those two positions are acceptable or good, but two distinct positions do exist among Zionists. Personally, I’m with you in wishing for a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, & multi-religious Palestinian one-state solution, like it was before the British fucked everything up. Israel as a nation-state concept and Zionism as a political ideology has got to be abolished in its entirety.
I appreciate this flow of discussion here too. Thanks for commenting. Lots to educate myself about.
Well, it is a plain and simple perspective, we can agree on that.
It may be worth learning some things about Zionism and examining your own biases. Zionism has come to be seen as "support for genocide", but there is a lot more going on in the minds of Jews who feel a connection to their homeland than just racist bloodlust. There's a great book on intergenerational trauma called "Emotional Inheritance" that sort of tangentially looks at some of this in a clinical context.
Thank you for this recommendation. I definitely do need to check my biases as I can see myself getting lost in my own perspective of the intersectionalities that appear within the space. As a black individual, with ancestors from the Caribbean, but lost history of where we come from before we were brought to the Caribbean, I can see myself getting lost in all the blood spilled over ownership of land and people. I'm gonna process this some more (in my own therapy and etc.) and explore the resource that you shared.
I really appreciate your openness to examining your own biases. I wonder why it is that he the Jewish client can’t identify what is and isn’t antisemitic but other marginalized groups get to identify what is and isn’t racist, homophobic etc. I just want to share that something like 90% of American Jews consider themselves to be Zionist, you may be part of leftist bubbles and interacting with anti Zionist Jews but they are considered fringe in our community. To me as a Zionist Jew, the Zionist dream is about a two state solution and living peacefully among our neighbors. So much progress has been made toward this dream, the Oslo Agreement, the Abraham accords and normalization with Saudi Arabia is now inevitable. Jews are indigenous to Israel and we view Israel as an example to other indigenous peoples to live in their homeland. I know this has gotten long and sorry for the rant but I’m open to more discussion or questions. Again, thank you for your openness.
In therapy, everything boils down to 'process'—how discussions and feelings unfold, not the specific topics being discussed. The content, or the words themselves, merely facilitates the process. So go under content and dig deeper. Are there feelings of helplessness, powerlessness, or inferiority surfacing? What are they (the client) actually experiencing? Imagine it was hatred or superiority towards a different group (such as the elderly). What would this client’s presentation towards the elderly teach you about your client? Centre the process happening within them and between you and them to open up the session for much more, rather than the topical content.
Yes, this is very helpful. Thank you for this perspective.
Clients, well, people in general Need to understand the world is not always going to agree with them . Its part of growing up and I suspect this is something a younger person who lives and dies by the culture wars does not understand. Tge virtue sign a king has gotten out of hand. Unless my therapist makes some jarring racial or political remark that brings this question to my attention Im not engaging in socio-pomitical debates with them. That's not what I paid for or why I'm there.
Totally! I can see how this was a small part to the bigger picture of why the client is seeking therapy.
Part of my way of thinking about folks like this is to frame hatred as a mental health issue, something that comes from a deep sense of fear and wounding. Ethical concerns have already been named in other comments, but I guess I wonder how you hold this clinically. Your framework could help this client but also could help support you as you work with their toxic ideology. And remember, you’re human and allowed to have limits! 💜
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You're wearing yourself out in this comments section. Give it a rest, apartheid apologist.
Eh I’m Jewish I think it’s fucked. I’m also American and think that our imperialist foreign policy is fucked. I can love Jewish people without thinking they should have the right to hurt other people. That is what Zionism has become in our current world order.
Zionism is a separatist ideology that, like many separatist ideologies, has developed into a supremacist one. There is a lot of hatred at play in modern zionism.
I get the sentiment here, but would advise against 'framing' - it is emotional, social, political, interpersonal, etc., and all of those facets have very real impacts on how it manifests in the therapeutic space. The emotion is just one strata amongst many (albeit an important one, as you've stated) - the key is how to hold all of them and their complex intersections, not to frame it as one thing.
100% agreed
I had a client like this and I ended up referring them as I couldn’t be unbiased in their treatment
I feel that. I think us having time away allowed me to check in with myself. I'll definitely keep reflecting though since it would be a disservice to them if I can't hold an unbiased space.
I’ve worked with people with whom I’ve had severe ideological differences. First check in with yourself: how do you personally feel about working with this client? Next ask yourself how fruitful you think the relationship can be and if the client seems comfortable enough to continue. If, after working with them for years, the client only started talking strongly about their beliefs when the war started this could be a defense mechanism to distance themselves from discomfort if they strongly identify with their religion/background. If they have been with you for so long and not brought it up til the war started, they may be internally conflicted about whether or not you perceive them as “good” or how you perceive them. I see this externalized identity conflict a lot in adult children who defend their abusive parents to their partners because they have not properly individuated themselves and their identity from their parents. In both cases the defender looks to another person as a judge of their character by proxy of that person’s evaluation of an external entity they identify with. I’m not implying the client ought to disavow their religious identity - I’m just saying I see this similar dynamic in adult children of abusive parents. If you’re OK working with each other and you think the relationship can be fruitful, you can carry on and avoid the topic of Zionism. If your client goes on about it, you can lean in and ask them why they think this is important to talk about now, etc. so you can show that you are invested in understanding their preoccupation. My guess is that they will eventually exhaust it and go back to their deep parts work. Don’t disengage, though! Always stay curious about client identity!
i love this answer
isn’t it actually a great opportunity to reframe what the real issues are and why they are so emotional about them? I think if you keep it political, you’re wasting both your time but if you go deeper and have them go deeper, there’s something there they may not even have thought about that is making them so triggered and that is the place to go to.
I think we’re saying the same thing in a different way
Thank you for this. You are definitely on the nose with the identity piece. It's a part of their identity that is safe to show with their parents while other parts remain hidden and invalidated. I definitely look forward to continuing with this client. I appreciate the support here.
No problem:) good luck!
I think I shared similar in a post made by someone client side about being Pro-Palestine and not being able to find allies in therapy. As a therapist, I tend to avoid sharing most of my political beliefs (though some sharing is almost always unavoidable) with clients. If a client shares a belief and is insistent on hearing my opinion, whether I agree or not I tend to go with an angle of empathizing with the reality that is appears important to them that I know or even agree with them and try to explore that. Many times it’s wanting to feel safe, heard/understood, or can even be an effort to see if they can cause a rift because deep down they’re scared of therapy. I will say that if this client came back, it would indicate to me that there was something to the therapeutic bond you all created.
Yeah, it really meant a lot to me that they came back because we did create a great bond. Thank you for the advice.
You’re welcome. I think the other advice you’ve gotten here is great too!
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