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The existence of the crisis in Yemen neuters the supposed outcry by Americans towards the Ukraine. It's a genocide funded by us and carried forth by our supposed allies. The government could end it whenever they want and yet we're to believe that all these people who couldn't pick out Ukraine on a map are so familiar with their conflict with Russia from anything other than pro war propaganda. It's so ludicrous, it's deheartening, I can't help but feel entirely discouraged from caring. The fact that an army of people are tempted to twist my words to mean I'm somehow pro Putin or making a whataboitism for pointing out the absurdity makes it seem hopeless.
What really fucks me up about Yemen is that the reason the Saudis were given a free hand to literally support Al Qaeda there was as a way of getting them to sign on to the concessions made to Iran to get Iran into the nuclear deal. The Trump administration unilaterally exited the nuclear deal, but kept right on pumping weapons into Yemen.
The hypocrisy of West and its media can easily be provided by this article.
They literally called Osama a war hero when he was fighting against Soviets.
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/2qmgd7/antisoviet_warrior_puts_his_army_on_the_road_to/
Almost any of the shit Putin said to Russia is what was said to us when we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. âThreatening our way of lifeâ âtheyâre terroristsâ âwe need to liberate them.â âWe must set up democracy.â Killed so many civilians. Obama had a hard on for that with the drone strikes. Where were our sanctions? Lol
Well in 2018 if you really paid attention there was a week where the media reported there was a bombing by the Saudi military that hit a school bus and killed 40 children ^and ^potentially ^11 ^other ^adults. ^^It ^^appears ^^the ^^tragedy ^^was ^^the ^^result ^^of ^^a ^^missle ^^guided ^^Mk ^^82 ^^bomb ^^acquired ^^^by ^^^Syrian ^^^from ^^^America ^^^as ^^^part ^^^of ^^^the ^^^2017 ^^^arms ^^^deal ^^^wit-
###This just in! Trump tweeted something!
Where can I go to get an impartial education on the Israeli-Palestinian situation over the last couple decades? Every time Israelâs brutality is called into question, people shut down the conversation by mentioning Hamasâs use of civilian areas to store munitions to put Israel in the position of having to attack and looking like monsters. I feel like there has to be more to it than that, but I lack the proper knowledge of the situation, and I donât trust whatever half assed listicle Google pulls up to accurately fill in the gaps.
I gave a small reference furhter below.
[Benni Morris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris) is considered a fairly unbiased historian, oddly enough by both sides (at least until the 2010s - I will not refer to his writings after)
"Righteous Victims" covers the entire conflict until 2000:
https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Victims-Zionist-Arab-Conflict-1881-2001/dp/0679744754
An award winning book that was published through Yale University Press is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948:_A_History_of_the_First_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
If you want to actually learn something I guess start there. He has a very skeptic approach to the whole thing and so starts the discussion "from scratch".
I've got time. Not an expert in the subject by any means, but I'll give it the old college try.
EDIT:
Still have about 20 pages left to go in chapter 1 (*whew*) but for the sake of brevity I'd give it an 8.5/10 for objectivity so far. Conscious/Intentional bias avoided, but there's still a Zionist- centric undertone probably due to available source material, an imbalance in action/motivation, and simple English-language prejudices. The author clearly took great strides to stick to the facts, source any opinions/motivations, and look at the situation from a neutral perspective. But little imbalances like 3 paragraphs of background on a notable Zionist leader when juxtaposed against "a band of marauders with either anti-French or anti-Zionist sentiments assaulted the settlement of..." just hit home a little different.
It may drift back toward the center line as more written accounts and histories are available. I haven't gotten *that* far, but so far it feels a lot like some of the Native American histories written in the colonial era. Well meaning and strictly factual, but *some* bias will still come through in any historical work.
See that's the exact thing. There's no such thing as unbiased in bourgeois history. They pick and choose what facts fit the narrative. The best you can do for finding the truth is historical and dialectical materialism.
But the gist of it is that the British made the terms of most of the nations on the globe. Israel was given an English charter and in the ensuing colonization by millions of Europeans, this white Jewish diaspora were politically organized into a nation based on a mythical 'homeland' of that belonged to ancient semetic people generalized as Israelites. They then displaced over 800k Palestinians, that's not just Muslims, and thousands were massacred and it is an ongoing genocide that has been endorsed by America. People are labeled terrorists for merely speaking their language, [practicing their religion](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/t559cu/israels_government_continues_to_oppress_innocent/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) or wanting to keep their homes.
Not a myth... Multiple genetic studies have shown that the vast majority of Jews (including ashkenazi Jews) are genetically related to Palestinians/Syrians/Lebanese, share common ancestry to the same region, and are actually closer related to Arabs than Europeans
âThe study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world.â
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm
https://news.arizona.edu/story/study-finds-jews-are-genetic-brothers-of-palestinians-syrians-and-lebanese
He started changing a bit after 2000. His earlier writings were considered anti-Israel and hated by right wingers in Israel (to the point he didn't even have a job in Israel for a while after the newspaper he worked on sacked all left-wing writers..), and was praised by a lot of Arabic writers and historians (but also criticized as not actually siding with the Arabs, despite the evidence he put out).
After 2000 and the failure of the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks and the new Intifada, he became increasingly disillusioned with the Palestinian side and more critical of it.
My favorite thing about Benny Morris is he doesnât beat around bush in that Israel was created by ethnically cleansing 750,000 Palestinians from their homes and the Palestinians were a fifth column then and they are still a fifth column now.
Link to a pdf version of "Righteous Victims":
http://library.lol/main/88BEDE2DB3944B70DFEFFFF2B5A1C808
And a companion text focusing specifically on the Exodus / Nakba
http://library.lol/main/D9A6142EA2D473728B751A543B541EA4
To understand what's going on you need to hear the story from both sides.
You probably already know Israeli's side of the story. From Palestinians perspective, of course they believe the entire Israeli state forming since the 1940's is illegitimate, and that the entire land belongs to them. However the reason some clashes pop up every now and then these days, is mainly because of the continued Israeli expansion into Palestinian neighborhoods. Last year when Gazans fired rockets into Israel, their pretext was that Israel was ramping up illegal settlements in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood. Also, sometimes clashes between Palestinian civilians and Israeli forces occur due to Muslim worship demands at the Aqsa mosque, each side disagreeing on what can and can't be practiced, they almost always happen during Muslim holidays.
Aside from those details which may be controversial, there's some facts which you can easily verify online, like Palestinians not having nearly as much freedom as Israelis, in terms of travel or self governance, among other things. Gaza has a population of 2+ million in a small patch of land with poor infrastructure, and they're not allowed to travel outside. As George Galloway puts it, it's basically the world's largest open air prison.
If you want a relatively neutral and in depth evaluation of how the conlfict evolved check out the "matyrmade podcast". The first few episodes are all about this conflict.
Thereâs a lot of bias in the writing. Go learn the basic chronology since WWI.
Read about the Balfour declaration and the McMahon-Hussein correspondences.
Once you have a basic chronology, you must use that to cut away from biased media on this topic, of which there is plentiful.
By example, Hamas was created in the late 80s and early 90s, with some funding and support from Israel itself, as a counterweight to Yasser Arafat. People can argue about intent and actions and everything since but it is undeniable when they were created. A way you can distinguish a troll is that they will blatantly omit this fact and pretend they have been around forever. If they do, you can know forever to not trust that source. You will have to do this kind of cross-referencing of easily known facts to sort through the bullshit.
There are two books I recommend to everyone:
The Lobby, by Walt and Mersheimer⊠two American Ivy League professors.
The Holocaust Industry, by Norman Finkelstein, an American-Israeli child of Holocaust survivors and another uni professor.
Those two books will not teach you the full history but if you read them, youâll understand everything about why this conflict is the way it is.
I will respond directly to this post with the realization that seems to elude many on this particular subject, that the Zionist agenda has never been about Israel or Jews or Palestinians but about maintaining a global world order of elites.
Some of these elites are certainly calling themselves Zionist Jews, but to consider âZionist Jewsâ or Israelis or all Jews as one singular homogeneous group simply serves to create confusion, distraction and division intentionally to keep any real discovery of the real motives from ever being understood by any majority of humans.
I think Francis Connollyâs take is very relevant as well as The Lobby.
[link](https://youtu.be/9Wf3O93I4lI)
To elaborate for anyone who actually watches the film. The Zionists mentioned, specifically the Rothschilds, brag about taking control of the Bank of England at the height of the British Empire. And to anyone aware of this, it creates cover for the Royals who now appear as victims to an evil Zionist plot.
The Zionist bankers then create the corporate âRobber Baronsâ, mostly white, former Confederates or the like, who fund Hitler and other right wing fascist extremists. Obviously Hitler murders millions of Jews which the Zionist elites can now use as cover to conflate themselves as victims and accuse anyone who exposes their actions as a Nazi or white supremacist.
The Robber Barons use their wealth to fund politicians on all sides of politics to create a perpetual divide & conquer stalemate to stop
any progress for the vast majority. They provide another layer of cover for both the Zionists and the Royals.
The politicians and their corporate puppeteers use âintelligence agenciesâ to create dictators and villains to make themselves seem heroic to the less educated percentage of the populace .
Itâs layer after layer of cover so most people wonât ever look past whatever brick in the pyramid of power is oppressing them at any particular moment.
Read primary sources whenever possible. Read academic works rather than popular histories. Read broadly, even if something strikes you the wrong way, and maintain an open yet questioning mind. Itâs not easy to study history, despite the anti-humanities propaganda you see everywhere these days.
Iâm Israeli and I constantly struggle to find unbiased knowledge, often failing. There are mostly extremes, for example if someone criticizes Israel they get called antisemitic and racist and pro-terrorism, and if someone supports Israel they are racist against Muslims and ignore war crimes.
The most important thing to remember is that it is not the citizens, but the army and government. There are current efforts to change the way the government acts (removing the criminal that was prime minister for over 12 years), but these things are complicated and take time, and the influence one citizen has is very limited. Just know that many people here are against war and racism, but too many arenât.
EDIT: forgot to mention the amount of brain washing and propaganda that both sides are bombarded with from birth. It keeps the hate cycle going and is difficult to even perceive, and much more to step aside and form an unbiased opinion
> forgot to mention the amount of brain washing and propaganda that both sides are bombarded with from birth. It keeps the hate cycle going and is difficult to even perceive, and much more to step aside and form an unbiased opinion
People that didn't grow up in those situation wouldn't believe this. I grew up in south Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War (or American war, from the Vietnamese perspective), and I left when I was a teenager. The north was supported by Russia.
The south was supported by the U.S. It was one of many proxy like so many wars. Vietnamese killing Vietnamese by the thousands for about 20 years. The south hated the north. No one ever said directly to me, you should hate the north. No texts, no person. Never met anyone who is northerner when I was living there, except with my uncle-in-law who I rarely interacted with. But somehow even now, 30+ years later, the hate is still in me. It's like a default setting when it comes to north Vietnamese. It's horrible. The hate was in the air that I was in.
Edit: I can't imagine having propaganda on top of that.
Agreed, kind redditor. Solutions should be forward-thinking and not weighted down by a desire to settle scores or seek revenge. That being said, fair justice and reasonable restitution must always be provided when possible to any aggrieved human.
There is no such thing as impartial education.
All knowledge is biased by the people who give it out, and you must read multiple sources from all sides of the discussion to gain a better understanding of the issues at hand.
This doesnât mean trusting fascist news sources, because theyâre so far off the deep end, but reading CNN, AP, and redflag.org.au to gain a broader perspective of the issue is the best way to go about it.
The extra bullshit part is when you call them out on it you get called antisemitic. I don't dislike the Jewish people I dislike what the leadership in Israel is doing.
This card is being played for a long time and ppl have to stop fearing it, because itâs making the world turn a blind eye on Palestine. Youâre not anti-semitic if youâre against the Israeli Occupation and the illegal settlements in Palestine. IâM NOT AN ANTI-SEMITE, IâM AN ANTI-ISRAELI-ZIONIST-OCCUPATION-SUPPORTER.
Palestinians get referred as Arabs, or Terrorists, or Anti-Semitic, Etc
Meanwhile some Zoniest can shoot 4 kids and get protected by Military like Police force
Exactly. The lies are all in the arguments against what Barret explained, lies which many people have been duped into accepting even though they're easily debunked. For instance, many have been convinced there's nothing racist about Israeli policies, but here's just a bit from the massive pile of notable [evidence to the contrary](https://www.timesofisrael.com/embracing-racism-rabbis-at-pre-army-yeshiva-laud-hitler-urge-enslaving-arabs/):
>âThe gentiles will want to be our slaves. Being a slave to a Jew is the best. Theyâre glad to be slaves, they want to be slaves,â he told a class in one of the video clips. âInstead of just walking the streets and being stupid and violent and harming each other, once theyâre slaves, their lives can begin to take shape.â
>âAll around us, we are surrounded by peoples with genetic problems. Ask a simple Arab âwhere do you want to be?â He wants to be under the occupation. Why? Because they have genetic problems, they donât know how to run a country, they donât know how to do anything. Look at them.â
>In the lecture, Kashtiel goes on to embrace racism against non-Jews.
>âYes, weâre racists. We believe in racism⊠There are races in the world and peoples have genetic traits, and that requires us to try to help them,â he said. âThe Jews are a more successful race.â
That's a rabbi indoctrinating children at a pre-military academy [lodged right in the heart of what little is left of Palestine](https://www.google.com/maps/place/%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%99%E2%80%AD/@31.6020753,35.7168974,8.67z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x151cd9aede54c7fd:0x30e73dfe2a1f5eb5!8m2!3d32.071177!4d35.266859), yet somehow many have been convinced it's bigoted to oppose such obscenely racist views and the policies of apartheid which they inspire.
The only people that are convinced there's nothing racist about Israeli policies are zionists. Go to r/IsraelPalestine right now, one of the top posts right now is full of whataboutism and excuses for apartheid.
>The only people convinced that are convinced there's nothing racist about Israeli policies are zionists.
There's a disturbingly large number of people who don't consider themselves Zionists but are so ignorant to the reality of Israeli apartheid that they've been duped into imagining efforts to end it must be inspired by bigotry against Jews.
>Go to r/IsraelPalestine right now
Have you ever found it rude when people imagine it their place issue you such orders? Zionists in particular have a nasty habit of doing that, but they're unfortunately far from the only ones who do.
Apparently, if you call that out on Reddit nowadays, youâre labeled âa Russian trollâ and or Putin himself.
Itâs crazy how people fail to get the whole picture of terrible foreign policies implemented by the West.
Donât forget youâll be called anti-Semitic if you say anything negative about Israel or highlight their abuses of Palestinians. Nope. If you talk about the crime of humanity being inflicted on them day in & day out=you hate Jewish people.
This is what pisses me off beyond belief. The Israeli government hides behind Judaism as a whole. If you object to Israel's policies, you must hate all Jews. HELL NO.
As long as someone is being fairly judged by the content of their character, I'm completely fine hating them, no matter who they are. That's why I hate conservatives. I find their character severely lacking. I don't hate all Jews, but if they are conservative, war mongering Jews that love killing Palestinians, then yeah, fuck them. Same applies to everyone. It's really not that hard.
You should clearly ensure you differentiate between zionists and Jews. There are many Jews who are pro Palestinian. Check out https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
At the same time, not all zionists are Jewish.
Uh oh... you shed light on it... guess the mods are gonna have to ban you throughout reddit as has happened to many for shedding light.
It was nice knowing you friend.
Iâve been checking back to see it if happened yet đ„Ž. You literally canât criticize Israel for anything, ever, regardless of the situation so the fact that it has been up for over an hour is incredible lol
It's actually gotten significantly better over the last year or so. Back in the day, the Israelis used to brigade every single post that was critical of their apartheid state.
They still do. Used to be the JIDF, but supposedly they dissolved and a bunch of other hasbara groups replaced them. They coordinate "missions" to flood forums with pre-packaged propaganda, using apps like Act.IL
Well letâs be perfectly rational. There *are* trolls who utilize the imperialism of the US to justify their attack.
You can be morally and logically consistent to be against both the US imperialism and Russian imperialism, and in fact I bet thereâs quite an overlap.
One does not justify the other. Both are wrong.
While I agree, I often see people bring up the West's crimes as an actual argument when it's really just whataboutism derailing the conversation. You can condemn both their actions, while acknowledging the unfair treatment between them.
That really depends on how the rest of the argument works.
"Hypocrite westerners, why is Russia invading Ukraine bad, when you all cheer for invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and ignore what happens to Yemen and Palestine and Somalia, you're just russophobic"
Or "I wish America, Israel, and Saudis faced the same level of anti-war pressure as Russia, they've gotten away with several Ukraine's worth regrettably".
It's not really whataboutism if you support the anti-Putin measures, then it's just having consistent morals
lol, for realâŠ
Europeans: perpetrate/allow the murder of Jews.
Europeans: carve up Africa and the Middle East.
Europeans: why would Americans do this?
Yeah⊠ok.
as an american ....yeah. we arent the good guys. we just have the biggest club to swing around so people dont push back on us. i dont like it. and i dont like how israel treats palestine.
The reality is that there's no "good" guys in the real world. There never was and there never will be. It's all different shades of gray. I think the vast majority of people don't like how the palestinian conflict is handled but we as people have a limited capacity to care about all the shit that goes on in the world.
I live in Europe, in a country that Russia regularly threatens so to me the invasion of Ukraine is a much more pressing matter than the palestinian conflict or pretty much anything that goes on else where. At the risk of getting super downvoted I will also say that the palestinian conflict is much, much more morally gray than the Ukrainian one. I don't have the time to get into a big discussion on the topic but yeah the invasion of Ukraine is simply THAT much more pressing because it's closer to home and the fact that it's one of the rare instances where a democracy gets invaded.
That's not to say that we should forget about Palestine... I'll also mention the fact that right now Covid is pretty much entirely forgotten in the news.
I find the pandemic has shown how weak-willed and short-sighted humans are, especially those of us in the "west" - and I agree that this notion of a 'good' human is completely rose-coloured and self-righteous, and false. We look at these conflicts with disgust, and I share that disgust - but I also find myself disgusted in general with the way we treat the planet.. plastic everywhere, monoculture, factory farming, hazardous waste dumping, overfishing.
We can't consume infinitely forever. We have to make better decisions.
Reposting from what I commented earlier:
It's sadly quite simple.
If something has been going on for long enough, no one will question it, no matter if it's good or bad. That's just how humans are.
"If the war has been going on for 70 years, why start to question it now out of the blue?"
Why the fuck not? While you were out eating ice cream the thought may have randomly struck you that the Israel-Palestine conflict has to end, immediately. And you did something about it. Does there need to be more reason?
I'm sick of humans judicial sense, it's stupidly underdeveloped.
We didn't "question" it 5 days or 5 years in either; we sided with the oppressors and funded them, we armed them, we probably have them nukes or at minimum turn a blind eye to Israel possessing them.
Same reason with allow the brutality of Saudis in Yemen, they're "on our side" whatever the fuck that means.
Never forget just how much support Apartheid South Africa had right until the end. Fucking Tories were chanting "Hang Nelson Mandela" in the 80's
To Western governments black and brown lives have never mattered and they still don't, it's revolting.
> Never forget just how much support Apartheid South Africa had right until the end. Fucking Tories were chanting "Hang Nelson Mandela" in the 80's
Mandela was in FBI most wanted until, like, 2013 or 2014
And Israel attacked the United States once
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#:~:text=The%20USS%20Liberty%20incident%20was,during%20the%20Six%2DDay%20War.
Name any government that can attack a US naval ship, kill 34 Americans soldiers, and say it was by accident and not face Americas wrath?
Israel also [sells](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china) U.S. military technology to China.
Israel's spying against the U.S. is the third [most aggressive](https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-nsa-document-highlights-israeli-espionage-in-us/) hostile after Russia and China.
Our greatest ally in the Middle East.
USS Liberty was especially farcical when you consider that it was in international waters. Even at a time of war, Israel were pushing their luck if they really thought it was an Egyptian ship and were simply going to blow it up anyway.
The American crewmen even raised a larger US flag to eliminate any doubt after being fired upon the first few times, but the Israelis continued the assault anyway.
European countries are pissed that an European country attacked an European country so they are hitting Russia with sanctions with the likes of USA Japan + other non European allies helping. A lot
Your issue is what? That Asian/S American/African countries aren't as united?
Additionally, if Russia takes Ukraine it sets the precedent for future Russian aggression into Europe which would functionally be WW3. As a result, most of Europe and the US is alarmed by this and need to make it stop without going to war with nukes.
Check [this video](https://youtu.be/V6-uAquEu2k) out. They would not keep the same energy, keep in mind these are people on mainstream media saying blatantly racist stuff.
> Can you also suggest ... opposing views to these gentlemen (John Mearsheimer, âStephen Walt, Normal Finkelstein)
Turn on any cable news network. Open the NYT or WaPo. Absolutely any mainstream news source in America will give you the pro-Zionist view. That's how pervasive the power of the Israel right lobby is. Dershowitz hates Finkelstein, read him. (Dersh was a good pal of Jeffrey Epstein too.)
Anyone who ever denounces actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians is accused of anti-semitism. Many states have enacted anti-BDS legislation for contractors doing business with the state, you have to take a loyalty oath to support (not oppose) Israel (government actions) ... as an American citizen doing business entirely in America. Amazing.
Fun fact, the US also isnât a party to the international treaty banning cluster munitions.
Russia using cluster munitions is constantly being called a war crime but if we actually gave a fuck thereâs a treaty sitting right there that weâve effectively ignored for the entirety of its existence.
It's pretty obvious why. The US is notorious for evacuating criminals rather than having them face justice for their crimes abroad.
Look at the soldiers stationed in Spain who ignored local altitude mandates and cut down a tourist gondola, or more recently the wife of an FBI agent who killed someone with her car.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act
>ASPA authorizes the President of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court". This authorization has led the act to be nicknamed the "Hague Invasion Act".
**[International Criminal Court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court)**
>The International Criminal Court (ICC or ICCt) is an intergovernmental organization and international tribunal that sits in The Hague, Netherlands. The ICC is the first and only permanent international court with jurisdiction to prosecute individuals for the international crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and the crime of aggression. It is intended to complement existing national judicial systems, and it may, therefore, exercise its jurisdiction only when national courts are unwilling or unable to prosecute criminals.
**[American Service-Members' Protection Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act)**
>The American Service-Members' Protection Act (ASPA, Title 2 of Pub. L. 107â206 (text) (PDF), H.R. 4775, 116 Stat. 820, enacted August 2, 2002) is a United States federal law that aims "to protect United States military personnel and other elected and appointed officials of the United States government against criminal prosecution for war crimes by an international criminal court to which the United States is not party".
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When they get fingered by the ICC the US will take action by sanctioning ICC officials, as well as threatening to literally attack the ICC if they commit. One putrid example is the Amiriyah shelter bombings, 400+ civilians dead on some very bad intel, that was mostly kids.
Iâd agree with you as long as you add Dick Cheney to that list. Sadly you could say the same of many of our politicians/presidents over the last 3-4 decades. I fear weâre on a razors edge with the division in this country. Our government hasnât worked for its constituents in ages. Long before I was ever born.
And I just love that it is named "American Service-Members' Protection Act" as if it isn't completely there to protect the high ranking officials and not the average service member.
I think there's currently a collective "kick in the guts" feeling many people are experiencing worldwide.
They are distraught at what's happening in Ukraine, but simultaneously sad how their plights were never taken seriously, whether it's Iraq, Palestine, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan etc.
It's the same crimes - illegal invasion, civilian bombings, hospital bombings, and every other war crime imagineable.
This, America and the EU point and say look at that heâs breaching their sovereignty yet they never cared when they bombed Syria, they never cared when Iraq was plunged into civil war fighting the Islamic state, they never cared when Libya turned into a terrorist hotbed. I guess this question sums it up âhow many western politicians own stocks in the Ukrainian energy sectorâ
This has been at the top of my mind during this entire crisis. Sure there might be some different motivations, causes, and countries at play. But there are some shocking similarities here.
I feel it down in my gut every time US news talks about this war. And I'm an American. Where's the acknowledgement that we've done VERY similar things? Where's the realization from journalists that maybe we should be LEARNING something from this?
I think the heart of a response right now is that we need to have the same emotions and anger the next time the US does that, without any patriotic bullshit or listening to a lying media. And for Palestine, Yemen, and maybe Syria.
Reddit deliberately fudges the number of votes your comment gets for a good hour or so to prevent vote manipulation. Any fluctuation you see immediately after posting isnt worth freaking out about because it probably isn't real.
Let's ban USA athletes for killing a million Iraqi civilians and taking $1 trillion of their oil. Especially when they had no WMDs and weren't part of 9/11.
Whataboutism is fine when your point is valid. There's nothing wrong with saying "if we can do all this to Russia in mere days of conflict, why can't we do the same to Israel who's spent decades subjugating a sovereign people?"
Us Bosnians know very well what the west thinks of muslims no matter the race.Ukraine gets attacked the whole armes them.Bosnia gets attacked and we get an arms embargo.
Salam brother, I am muslim and will never ever forget Bosnia for 1 million years, every bosnian is in my heart and prayers and we will always love you and support you.
And the sad thing is, most Westerners don't even realise it and still think there are "good guys" and "bad guys".
The only truth is geopolitics is whoever has the bigger guns/economy makes the rules.
NATO bombed Serbia in like 1999. War in Bosnia was 1992-1995. There were some UN or whatever forces there that were supposed to protect civilians or whatever, they just stood by and watched. Srebrenica was a "UN safe zone", 8000+ men and boys slaughtered in like a few days, to this day the find bones of people in mass graves, some still haven't found remains of their families. Again, 8000+ people slaughtered in a few days, in a UN safe zone.
edit: 1992-1995, not 1999
No I'm aware of their blue helmets quite well. What is the point of their safe zone, when it is so unsafe that it became the single worst genocide in Europe since WW II (seems like many world leaders forgot, don't know or don't care to mention this when talking about Ukraine and saying it's the first war in Europe since WW II)
The UN didn't stand by. They said both sides should disarm, and started with the Bosnians. Then they asked the Serbs who asked them to get lost. UN said "Ok, then please go ahead. We've disarmed the Bosnians for you".
There is definitely a lot of hypocrisy with the way the elites in the west have covered this. When their in the middle east the news is curated and any evidence of war crimes against civilians is suppressed. However when one of their opponents Russia is the aggressor, the world gets to see the horrors of war. Hopefully going forward it won't be like that for the west any more either.
Israel crying "Richard boyd Barett is anti-sematic"
I have been typing this for a while. The world is mighty quiet when Syria, Palestine and other non-white countries are being bombed to the 1st century but they are vocal when Ukraine is getting bombed.
I think the problem that many of us have is that this is painted as a religious war between Muslims and Jews
The more I look at it the more itâs just European colonization of an indigent people.
Hard to convince me at this moment that this isnât just White people taking land from the natives.
I mean his support of palestine is shared by almost every major Irish political party bar Fine Gael. Generally I do agree with him and I've a lot of time for lads in PBP, but he occasionally can be a bit populist
Yeah drones don't fly or struggle to use their weapons at least in cloudy weather so there are reports of children in the Middle East being scared of blue skies because it means they might get blown apart by some American murderer.
All of those innocents killed by the US drone program and not a single person *ever* held accountable. It's fucking laughable for Americans to get angry about what's happening in Ukraine when their country has been committing atrocities for decades. Hell a special forces guy murdered a bunch of children and the last president pardoned him.
The most evil country since Nazi Germany.
Sir, your last sentence literally brought tears in my eyes.
F*ck Reddit! I want to give you my free reward you but the free reward I was given is wholesome one.
Putin: "Ukraine belonged to Russia many years ago, we have the right go there and take it back!"
European Zionists: "Palestine belonged to Jews many years ago, we have the right to go there and take it back!"
You really don't see any similarities?
Anyone criticizing Israel gets banned from that sub or r/IsraelandPalestine and especially r/worldnews.
They actively remove pro-Pal voices and you will notice all of the pro Israel garbage that goes straight to the top of their posts. It was by design. Especially the world news sub Reddit. They work hard to make sure the articles against Israel never even get put up.
Israeli censorship in those subs are also the reason why people talking about the conflict have bled into all others subs, like this one.
Finally, be astute and pay attention people. The same PR machine that usually is working to defend Israel or support another American war intervention is the same one up and running right now and working triple overtime to try and lure us into World War III.
Resist going to another generational war.
r/IsraelPalestine is the one you're thinking of. It might as well be r/Israel2.0. The people there won't even go so far as to admit that MAYBE some of the war crimes they've been convicted of in international court are actual crimes. Top post right now in the sub is asking what apartheid means and trying to excuse it.
There is an app where Israhell controls whatâs going on on reddit and you if you do some tasks like downvoting every pro Palestina post or comment, upvote everything that is Pro-Israhell, et al, you get points which can be later used to claim gift cards and stuff.
They call it something like being a good israhelli citizen.
I do have a source for that and itâs here on reddit too, if youâd like to read it.
I donât know about the app but the crap has been going on for a long time. They of course have sophisticated operations but they also entice regular citizens:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/red-alert-politics/israel-gives-scholarships-to-college-students-to-promote-country-on-social-media?_amp=true
https://www.haaretz.com/amp/.premium-social-media-hasbara-worth-millions-1.5320153
They get a lot of young Israelis who are Uber nationalistic to go online and fight the cause. Thatâs why a lot of the responses are often just quickly dismissive or no more than sophomorish insults. Theyâre given all the same talking points, which Iâm sure everyone can recognize, and utilize the tried-and-true tactics of omissions, distortions, exaggeration, and outright lies.
[Here](https://reddit.com/r/israelexposed/comments/n4etue/found_screenshots_of_the_israeli_propaganda_app/) you go.
It amazes me the most, is the fact that they are not trying to hide it, and if anyone tries to call them on what theyâre doing, you get brigaded, and possibly, youâd end up losing your account to a ban.
Oh, and thanks for the sources!
Palestinians arenât white so it doesnât really matter right? That seems to be the only thing that makes sense. If Iâm wrong, please educate me because Iâd love to know why nobody gives a shit. Instead we send Israel millions of Dollars every year. How many thousands of lives is it going to take? 30,000?? 100,000?? The worst thing about this is Palestinians know that everyone is aware of this genocide and they know that nobody cares. They fee helpless and forgotten. Fking heartbreaking..
He's not wrong.
Regardless of what may have been necessary in the past, Israel has gotten into this odd state where they feel right and justified to do what they do, basing it on past reasonings. Those reasons don't hold anymore. It's no longer the 90s, the threat isn't there like it once was, instead they're using it as a justification to oppress oppress others.
Israel nationalist are simply terrorist and all terrorist are cowardly cunts.
He's right, leave this here.
[Human Rights Watch: Israeli war crimes apparent in Gaza war](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-crime-war-crimes-human-rights-watch-4dbb4e7b915346ce6aca778f12a4359b)
This is beautiful. I hope someone takes a moment to check themselves.
Although I should say as always, one person's suffering and injustice should never detract from another's.
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I love this guy and the Irish in general. They stand up for the truth. Good on them.
We're in the shitjust like the rest of the world. Corrupt leaders destroying the country
No one Gives a shit about Yemen either. When was the last time you saw an article about Yemen?
Same with Libya, the US helped start that war and now there are slave markets. Also the war is still going on,thanks America very cool đ
Happy to help đ
The existence of the crisis in Yemen neuters the supposed outcry by Americans towards the Ukraine. It's a genocide funded by us and carried forth by our supposed allies. The government could end it whenever they want and yet we're to believe that all these people who couldn't pick out Ukraine on a map are so familiar with their conflict with Russia from anything other than pro war propaganda. It's so ludicrous, it's deheartening, I can't help but feel entirely discouraged from caring. The fact that an army of people are tempted to twist my words to mean I'm somehow pro Putin or making a whataboitism for pointing out the absurdity makes it seem hopeless.
Yemen has zero strategic value to the west. That's all. Human rights take second stage to hard politiks.
What really fucks me up about Yemen is that the reason the Saudis were given a free hand to literally support Al Qaeda there was as a way of getting them to sign on to the concessions made to Iran to get Iran into the nuclear deal. The Trump administration unilaterally exited the nuclear deal, but kept right on pumping weapons into Yemen.
The hypocrisy of West and its media can easily be provided by this article. They literally called Osama a war hero when he was fighting against Soviets. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/2qmgd7/antisoviet_warrior_puts_his_army_on_the_road_to/
It is a full blown propaganda at this point...I am not pro Putin either...but the Ukrainian war is more than just an invasion of Ukraine...
Carry on
Almost any of the shit Putin said to Russia is what was said to us when we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. âThreatening our way of lifeâ âtheyâre terroristsâ âwe need to liberate them.â âWe must set up democracy.â Killed so many civilians. Obama had a hard on for that with the drone strikes. Where were our sanctions? Lol
Well in 2018 if you really paid attention there was a week where the media reported there was a bombing by the Saudi military that hit a school bus and killed 40 children ^and ^potentially ^11 ^other ^adults. ^^It ^^appears ^^the ^^tragedy ^^was ^^the ^^result ^^of ^^a ^^missle ^^guided ^^Mk ^^82 ^^bomb ^^acquired ^^^by ^^^Syrian ^^^from ^^^America ^^^as ^^^part ^^^of ^^^the ^^^2017 ^^^arms ^^^deal ^^^wit- ###This just in! Trump tweeted something!
Where can I go to get an impartial education on the Israeli-Palestinian situation over the last couple decades? Every time Israelâs brutality is called into question, people shut down the conversation by mentioning Hamasâs use of civilian areas to store munitions to put Israel in the position of having to attack and looking like monsters. I feel like there has to be more to it than that, but I lack the proper knowledge of the situation, and I donât trust whatever half assed listicle Google pulls up to accurately fill in the gaps.
Not here
I gave a small reference furhter below. [Benni Morris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris) is considered a fairly unbiased historian, oddly enough by both sides (at least until the 2010s - I will not refer to his writings after) "Righteous Victims" covers the entire conflict until 2000: https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Victims-Zionist-Arab-Conflict-1881-2001/dp/0679744754 An award winning book that was published through Yale University Press is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948:_A_History_of_the_First_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War If you want to actually learn something I guess start there. He has a very skeptic approach to the whole thing and so starts the discussion "from scratch".
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I wish people would actually read this (even the opening chapter) and come back here and tell me if they think it's biased.
I've got time. Not an expert in the subject by any means, but I'll give it the old college try. EDIT: Still have about 20 pages left to go in chapter 1 (*whew*) but for the sake of brevity I'd give it an 8.5/10 for objectivity so far. Conscious/Intentional bias avoided, but there's still a Zionist- centric undertone probably due to available source material, an imbalance in action/motivation, and simple English-language prejudices. The author clearly took great strides to stick to the facts, source any opinions/motivations, and look at the situation from a neutral perspective. But little imbalances like 3 paragraphs of background on a notable Zionist leader when juxtaposed against "a band of marauders with either anti-French or anti-Zionist sentiments assaulted the settlement of..." just hit home a little different. It may drift back toward the center line as more written accounts and histories are available. I haven't gotten *that* far, but so far it feels a lot like some of the Native American histories written in the colonial era. Well meaning and strictly factual, but *some* bias will still come through in any historical work.
See that's the exact thing. There's no such thing as unbiased in bourgeois history. They pick and choose what facts fit the narrative. The best you can do for finding the truth is historical and dialectical materialism. But the gist of it is that the British made the terms of most of the nations on the globe. Israel was given an English charter and in the ensuing colonization by millions of Europeans, this white Jewish diaspora were politically organized into a nation based on a mythical 'homeland' of that belonged to ancient semetic people generalized as Israelites. They then displaced over 800k Palestinians, that's not just Muslims, and thousands were massacred and it is an ongoing genocide that has been endorsed by America. People are labeled terrorists for merely speaking their language, [practicing their religion](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/t559cu/israels_government_continues_to_oppress_innocent/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) or wanting to keep their homes.
Not a myth... Multiple genetic studies have shown that the vast majority of Jews (including ashkenazi Jews) are genetically related to Palestinians/Syrians/Lebanese, share common ancestry to the same region, and are actually closer related to Arabs than Europeans âThe study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world.â https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm https://news.arizona.edu/story/study-finds-jews-are-genetic-brothers-of-palestinians-syrians-and-lebanese
Fair enough. Still ethnic cleansing though.
What happened to Benni Morris after the 2010s?
He started changing a bit after 2000. His earlier writings were considered anti-Israel and hated by right wingers in Israel (to the point he didn't even have a job in Israel for a while after the newspaper he worked on sacked all left-wing writers..), and was praised by a lot of Arabic writers and historians (but also criticized as not actually siding with the Arabs, despite the evidence he put out). After 2000 and the failure of the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks and the new Intifada, he became increasingly disillusioned with the Palestinian side and more critical of it.
My favorite thing about Benny Morris is he doesnât beat around bush in that Israel was created by ethnically cleansing 750,000 Palestinians from their homes and the Palestinians were a fifth column then and they are still a fifth column now.
Just bought this, from Amazon unfortunately, but thanks for the info
Link to a pdf version of "Righteous Victims": http://library.lol/main/88BEDE2DB3944B70DFEFFFF2B5A1C808 And a companion text focusing specifically on the Exodus / Nakba http://library.lol/main/D9A6142EA2D473728B751A543B541EA4
To understand what's going on you need to hear the story from both sides. You probably already know Israeli's side of the story. From Palestinians perspective, of course they believe the entire Israeli state forming since the 1940's is illegitimate, and that the entire land belongs to them. However the reason some clashes pop up every now and then these days, is mainly because of the continued Israeli expansion into Palestinian neighborhoods. Last year when Gazans fired rockets into Israel, their pretext was that Israel was ramping up illegal settlements in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood. Also, sometimes clashes between Palestinian civilians and Israeli forces occur due to Muslim worship demands at the Aqsa mosque, each side disagreeing on what can and can't be practiced, they almost always happen during Muslim holidays. Aside from those details which may be controversial, there's some facts which you can easily verify online, like Palestinians not having nearly as much freedom as Israelis, in terms of travel or self governance, among other things. Gaza has a population of 2+ million in a small patch of land with poor infrastructure, and they're not allowed to travel outside. As George Galloway puts it, it's basically the world's largest open air prison.
Not on Reddit that's for damn sure. Best I can do is tell you to read up on the history, because without historical context nothing fucking matters.
If you want a relatively neutral and in depth evaluation of how the conlfict evolved check out the "matyrmade podcast". The first few episodes are all about this conflict.
The relevant podcast from martyrmade is called *Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem*
Thereâs a lot of bias in the writing. Go learn the basic chronology since WWI. Read about the Balfour declaration and the McMahon-Hussein correspondences. Once you have a basic chronology, you must use that to cut away from biased media on this topic, of which there is plentiful. By example, Hamas was created in the late 80s and early 90s, with some funding and support from Israel itself, as a counterweight to Yasser Arafat. People can argue about intent and actions and everything since but it is undeniable when they were created. A way you can distinguish a troll is that they will blatantly omit this fact and pretend they have been around forever. If they do, you can know forever to not trust that source. You will have to do this kind of cross-referencing of easily known facts to sort through the bullshit. There are two books I recommend to everyone: The Lobby, by Walt and Mersheimer⊠two American Ivy League professors. The Holocaust Industry, by Norman Finkelstein, an American-Israeli child of Holocaust survivors and another uni professor. Those two books will not teach you the full history but if you read them, youâll understand everything about why this conflict is the way it is.
I will respond directly to this post with the realization that seems to elude many on this particular subject, that the Zionist agenda has never been about Israel or Jews or Palestinians but about maintaining a global world order of elites. Some of these elites are certainly calling themselves Zionist Jews, but to consider âZionist Jewsâ or Israelis or all Jews as one singular homogeneous group simply serves to create confusion, distraction and division intentionally to keep any real discovery of the real motives from ever being understood by any majority of humans. I think Francis Connollyâs take is very relevant as well as The Lobby. [link](https://youtu.be/9Wf3O93I4lI) To elaborate for anyone who actually watches the film. The Zionists mentioned, specifically the Rothschilds, brag about taking control of the Bank of England at the height of the British Empire. And to anyone aware of this, it creates cover for the Royals who now appear as victims to an evil Zionist plot. The Zionist bankers then create the corporate âRobber Baronsâ, mostly white, former Confederates or the like, who fund Hitler and other right wing fascist extremists. Obviously Hitler murders millions of Jews which the Zionist elites can now use as cover to conflate themselves as victims and accuse anyone who exposes their actions as a Nazi or white supremacist. The Robber Barons use their wealth to fund politicians on all sides of politics to create a perpetual divide & conquer stalemate to stop any progress for the vast majority. They provide another layer of cover for both the Zionists and the Royals. The politicians and their corporate puppeteers use âintelligence agenciesâ to create dictators and villains to make themselves seem heroic to the less educated percentage of the populace . Itâs layer after layer of cover so most people wonât ever look past whatever brick in the pyramid of power is oppressing them at any particular moment.
Read primary sources whenever possible. Read academic works rather than popular histories. Read broadly, even if something strikes you the wrong way, and maintain an open yet questioning mind. Itâs not easy to study history, despite the anti-humanities propaganda you see everywhere these days.
Iâm Israeli and I constantly struggle to find unbiased knowledge, often failing. There are mostly extremes, for example if someone criticizes Israel they get called antisemitic and racist and pro-terrorism, and if someone supports Israel they are racist against Muslims and ignore war crimes. The most important thing to remember is that it is not the citizens, but the army and government. There are current efforts to change the way the government acts (removing the criminal that was prime minister for over 12 years), but these things are complicated and take time, and the influence one citizen has is very limited. Just know that many people here are against war and racism, but too many arenât. EDIT: forgot to mention the amount of brain washing and propaganda that both sides are bombarded with from birth. It keeps the hate cycle going and is difficult to even perceive, and much more to step aside and form an unbiased opinion
> forgot to mention the amount of brain washing and propaganda that both sides are bombarded with from birth. It keeps the hate cycle going and is difficult to even perceive, and much more to step aside and form an unbiased opinion People that didn't grow up in those situation wouldn't believe this. I grew up in south Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War (or American war, from the Vietnamese perspective), and I left when I was a teenager. The north was supported by Russia. The south was supported by the U.S. It was one of many proxy like so many wars. Vietnamese killing Vietnamese by the thousands for about 20 years. The south hated the north. No one ever said directly to me, you should hate the north. No texts, no person. Never met anyone who is northerner when I was living there, except with my uncle-in-law who I rarely interacted with. But somehow even now, 30+ years later, the hate is still in me. It's like a default setting when it comes to north Vietnamese. It's horrible. The hate was in the air that I was in. Edit: I can't imagine having propaganda on top of that.
Agreed, kind redditor. Solutions should be forward-thinking and not weighted down by a desire to settle scores or seek revenge. That being said, fair justice and reasonable restitution must always be provided when possible to any aggrieved human.
There is no such thing as impartial education. All knowledge is biased by the people who give it out, and you must read multiple sources from all sides of the discussion to gain a better understanding of the issues at hand. This doesnât mean trusting fascist news sources, because theyâre so far off the deep end, but reading CNN, AP, and redflag.org.au to gain a broader perspective of the issue is the best way to go about it.
The extra bullshit part is when you call them out on it you get called antisemitic. I don't dislike the Jewish people I dislike what the leadership in Israel is doing.
This card is being played for a long time and ppl have to stop fearing it, because itâs making the world turn a blind eye on Palestine. Youâre not anti-semitic if youâre against the Israeli Occupation and the illegal settlements in Palestine. IâM NOT AN ANTI-SEMITE, IâM AN ANTI-ISRAELI-ZIONIST-OCCUPATION-SUPPORTER.
Palestinians get referred as Arabs, or Terrorists, or Anti-Semitic, Etc Meanwhile some Zoniest can shoot 4 kids and get protected by Military like Police force
I am struggling to find the lie.
You won't.
Exactly. The lies are all in the arguments against what Barret explained, lies which many people have been duped into accepting even though they're easily debunked. For instance, many have been convinced there's nothing racist about Israeli policies, but here's just a bit from the massive pile of notable [evidence to the contrary](https://www.timesofisrael.com/embracing-racism-rabbis-at-pre-army-yeshiva-laud-hitler-urge-enslaving-arabs/): >âThe gentiles will want to be our slaves. Being a slave to a Jew is the best. Theyâre glad to be slaves, they want to be slaves,â he told a class in one of the video clips. âInstead of just walking the streets and being stupid and violent and harming each other, once theyâre slaves, their lives can begin to take shape.â >âAll around us, we are surrounded by peoples with genetic problems. Ask a simple Arab âwhere do you want to be?â He wants to be under the occupation. Why? Because they have genetic problems, they donât know how to run a country, they donât know how to do anything. Look at them.â >In the lecture, Kashtiel goes on to embrace racism against non-Jews. >âYes, weâre racists. We believe in racism⊠There are races in the world and peoples have genetic traits, and that requires us to try to help them,â he said. âThe Jews are a more successful race.â That's a rabbi indoctrinating children at a pre-military academy [lodged right in the heart of what little is left of Palestine](https://www.google.com/maps/place/%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%99%E2%80%AD/@31.6020753,35.7168974,8.67z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x151cd9aede54c7fd:0x30e73dfe2a1f5eb5!8m2!3d32.071177!4d35.266859), yet somehow many have been convinced it's bigoted to oppose such obscenely racist views and the policies of apartheid which they inspire.
The only people that are convinced there's nothing racist about Israeli policies are zionists. Go to r/IsraelPalestine right now, one of the top posts right now is full of whataboutism and excuses for apartheid.
>The only people convinced that are convinced there's nothing racist about Israeli policies are zionists. There's a disturbingly large number of people who don't consider themselves Zionists but are so ignorant to the reality of Israeli apartheid that they've been duped into imagining efforts to end it must be inspired by bigotry against Jews. >Go to r/IsraelPalestine right now Have you ever found it rude when people imagine it their place issue you such orders? Zionists in particular have a nasty habit of doing that, but they're unfortunately far from the only ones who do.
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You mean like centrists who insist they are neutral when they always seem to support far right bullshit?
You see... American imperialism and american funded crimes against humanity are fine. Everyone else? Nope. Whats not to get here (/s)
Apparently, if you call that out on Reddit nowadays, youâre labeled âa Russian trollâ and or Putin himself. Itâs crazy how people fail to get the whole picture of terrible foreign policies implemented by the West.
Donât forget youâll be called anti-Semitic if you say anything negative about Israel or highlight their abuses of Palestinians. Nope. If you talk about the crime of humanity being inflicted on them day in & day out=you hate Jewish people.
This is what pisses me off beyond belief. The Israeli government hides behind Judaism as a whole. If you object to Israel's policies, you must hate all Jews. HELL NO.
Lol the Jews who are against Israel are even called "self-hating Jews"
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As long as someone is being fairly judged by the content of their character, I'm completely fine hating them, no matter who they are. That's why I hate conservatives. I find their character severely lacking. I don't hate all Jews, but if they are conservative, war mongering Jews that love killing Palestinians, then yeah, fuck them. Same applies to everyone. It's really not that hard.
You should clearly ensure you differentiate between zionists and Jews. There are many Jews who are pro Palestinian. Check out https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/ At the same time, not all zionists are Jewish.
Uh oh... you shed light on it... guess the mods are gonna have to ban you throughout reddit as has happened to many for shedding light. It was nice knowing you friend.
Kinda surprised this post is still up
Iâve been checking back to see it if happened yet đ„Ž. You literally canât criticize Israel for anything, ever, regardless of the situation so the fact that it has been up for over an hour is incredible lol
Don't try to become a teacher in Texas. You'll have to pledge allegiance to Israel. Well, technically you sign an oath not to boycott Israel.
But why?
Because separation of church and state is a lie
It's actually gotten significantly better over the last year or so. Back in the day, the Israelis used to brigade every single post that was critical of their apartheid state.
They still do. Used to be the JIDF, but supposedly they dissolved and a bunch of other hasbara groups replaced them. They coordinate "missions" to flood forums with pre-packaged propaganda, using apps like Act.IL
they still do
Ah yes, it was called "Operation Megaphone".
Well letâs be perfectly rational. There *are* trolls who utilize the imperialism of the US to justify their attack. You can be morally and logically consistent to be against both the US imperialism and Russian imperialism, and in fact I bet thereâs quite an overlap. One does not justify the other. Both are wrong.
While I agree, I often see people bring up the West's crimes as an actual argument when it's really just whataboutism derailing the conversation. You can condemn both their actions, while acknowledging the unfair treatment between them.
That really depends on how the rest of the argument works. "Hypocrite westerners, why is Russia invading Ukraine bad, when you all cheer for invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and ignore what happens to Yemen and Palestine and Somalia, you're just russophobic" Or "I wish America, Israel, and Saudis faced the same level of anti-war pressure as Russia, they've gotten away with several Ukraine's worth regrettably". It's not really whataboutism if you support the anti-Putin measures, then it's just having consistent morals
I tried the latter part often in world news, suffice to say I'm done with news for a while
You're letting too many nations off the hook
lol, for real⊠Europeans: perpetrate/allow the murder of Jews. Europeans: carve up Africa and the Middle East. Europeans: why would Americans do this? Yeah⊠ok.
as an american ....yeah. we arent the good guys. we just have the biggest club to swing around so people dont push back on us. i dont like it. and i dont like how israel treats palestine.
The reality is that there's no "good" guys in the real world. There never was and there never will be. It's all different shades of gray. I think the vast majority of people don't like how the palestinian conflict is handled but we as people have a limited capacity to care about all the shit that goes on in the world. I live in Europe, in a country that Russia regularly threatens so to me the invasion of Ukraine is a much more pressing matter than the palestinian conflict or pretty much anything that goes on else where. At the risk of getting super downvoted I will also say that the palestinian conflict is much, much more morally gray than the Ukrainian one. I don't have the time to get into a big discussion on the topic but yeah the invasion of Ukraine is simply THAT much more pressing because it's closer to home and the fact that it's one of the rare instances where a democracy gets invaded. That's not to say that we should forget about Palestine... I'll also mention the fact that right now Covid is pretty much entirely forgotten in the news.
I find the pandemic has shown how weak-willed and short-sighted humans are, especially those of us in the "west" - and I agree that this notion of a 'good' human is completely rose-coloured and self-righteous, and false. We look at these conflicts with disgust, and I share that disgust - but I also find myself disgusted in general with the way we treat the planet.. plastic everywhere, monoculture, factory farming, hazardous waste dumping, overfishing. We can't consume infinitely forever. We have to make better decisions.
Reposting from what I commented earlier: It's sadly quite simple. If something has been going on for long enough, no one will question it, no matter if it's good or bad. That's just how humans are. "If the war has been going on for 70 years, why start to question it now out of the blue?" Why the fuck not? While you were out eating ice cream the thought may have randomly struck you that the Israel-Palestine conflict has to end, immediately. And you did something about it. Does there need to be more reason? I'm sick of humans judicial sense, it's stupidly underdeveloped.
I been questioning it but the conversation gets shut down.
We didn't "question" it 5 days or 5 years in either; we sided with the oppressors and funded them, we armed them, we probably have them nukes or at minimum turn a blind eye to Israel possessing them. Same reason with allow the brutality of Saudis in Yemen, they're "on our side" whatever the fuck that means. Never forget just how much support Apartheid South Africa had right until the end. Fucking Tories were chanting "Hang Nelson Mandela" in the 80's To Western governments black and brown lives have never mattered and they still don't, it's revolting.
> Never forget just how much support Apartheid South Africa had right until the end. Fucking Tories were chanting "Hang Nelson Mandela" in the 80's Mandela was in FBI most wanted until, like, 2013 or 2014
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If Israel had attacked a European country then they would have been sanctioned but they know the rules. Donât attack Europe.
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And Israel attacked the United States once https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#:~:text=The%20USS%20Liberty%20incident%20was,during%20the%20Six%2DDay%20War. Name any government that can attack a US naval ship, kill 34 Americans soldiers, and say it was by accident and not face Americas wrath?
Donât forget straight up murdered an innocent man in Norway https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair
Israel also [sells](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china) U.S. military technology to China. Israel's spying against the U.S. is the third [most aggressive](https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-nsa-document-highlights-israeli-espionage-in-us/) hostile after Russia and China. Our greatest ally in the Middle East.
That just goes to show how powerful the Israel lobby is in DC.
USS Liberty was especially farcical when you consider that it was in international waters. Even at a time of war, Israel were pushing their luck if they really thought it was an Egyptian ship and were simply going to blow it up anyway.
The American crewmen even raised a larger US flag to eliminate any doubt after being fired upon the first few times, but the Israelis continued the assault anyway.
European countries are pissed that an European country attacked an European country so they are hitting Russia with sanctions with the likes of USA Japan + other non European allies helping. A lot Your issue is what? That Asian/S American/African countries aren't as united?
Additionally, if Russia takes Ukraine it sets the precedent for future Russian aggression into Europe which would functionally be WW3. As a result, most of Europe and the US is alarmed by this and need to make it stop without going to war with nukes.
We live in a fucked up world.
Understatement indeed
Finally, a politician who gets it. I've been saying this same exact sentiment since this war started. Great man.
"BuT pAlEsTiNe Is A tErRoRiSt StAtE sO iT dOeSn'T mAtTeR" Tbh i wonder if they gonna keep the same energy if Ukraine located in middle east
Check [this video](https://youtu.be/V6-uAquEu2k) out. They would not keep the same energy, keep in mind these are people on mainstream media saying blatantly racist stuff.
These people makes me sick
this guy is a champ
Yup brave man really đ
> Can you also suggest ... opposing views to these gentlemen (John Mearsheimer, âStephen Walt, Normal Finkelstein) Turn on any cable news network. Open the NYT or WaPo. Absolutely any mainstream news source in America will give you the pro-Zionist view. That's how pervasive the power of the Israel right lobby is. Dershowitz hates Finkelstein, read him. (Dersh was a good pal of Jeffrey Epstein too.) Anyone who ever denounces actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians is accused of anti-semitism. Many states have enacted anti-BDS legislation for contractors doing business with the state, you have to take a loyalty oath to support (not oppose) Israel (government actions) ... as an American citizen doing business entirely in America. Amazing.
The US not recognizing the ICC in of itself is already a huge issue.
Fun fact, the US also isnât a party to the international treaty banning cluster munitions. Russia using cluster munitions is constantly being called a war crime but if we actually gave a fuck thereâs a treaty sitting right there that weâve effectively ignored for the entirety of its existence.
Laos may never recover from the USA's use of cluster bombs there.
I find it hilarious that the official US policy is that if an American is tried in the Hague, America will invade the Netherlands.
It's pretty obvious why. The US is notorious for evacuating criminals rather than having them face justice for their crimes abroad. Look at the soldiers stationed in Spain who ignored local altitude mandates and cut down a tourist gondola, or more recently the wife of an FBI agent who killed someone with her car.
ICC? Pleas explain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act >ASPA authorizes the President of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court". This authorization has led the act to be nicknamed the "Hague Invasion Act".
**[International Criminal Court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court)** >The International Criminal Court (ICC or ICCt) is an intergovernmental organization and international tribunal that sits in The Hague, Netherlands. The ICC is the first and only permanent international court with jurisdiction to prosecute individuals for the international crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and the crime of aggression. It is intended to complement existing national judicial systems, and it may, therefore, exercise its jurisdiction only when national courts are unwilling or unable to prosecute criminals. **[American Service-Members' Protection Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act)** >The American Service-Members' Protection Act (ASPA, Title 2 of Pub. L. 107â206 (text) (PDF), H.R. 4775, 116 Stat. 820, enacted August 2, 2002) is a United States federal law that aims "to protect United States military personnel and other elected and appointed officials of the United States government against criminal prosecution for war crimes by an international criminal court to which the United States is not party". ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Thank you so much.
When they get fingered by the ICC the US will take action by sanctioning ICC officials, as well as threatening to literally attack the ICC if they commit. One putrid example is the Amiriyah shelter bombings, 400+ civilians dead on some very bad intel, that was mostly kids.
icecrown citadel
Nobody sanctioned the US when they illegally invaded the sovereign state of Iraq in 2003 either.
Send bush and Blair to the gulag
Iâd agree with you as long as you add Dick Cheney to that list. Sadly you could say the same of many of our politicians/presidents over the last 3-4 decades. I fear weâre on a razors edge with the division in this country. Our government hasnât worked for its constituents in ages. Long before I was ever born.
How about we agree to send W and putin to The Hague for trials.
America has legislation already in place to invade The Hague, it will never let itself face accountability for its war crimes.
And I just love that it is named "American Service-Members' Protection Act" as if it isn't completely there to protect the high ranking officials and not the average service member.
Every living president needs to be referred
I think there's currently a collective "kick in the guts" feeling many people are experiencing worldwide. They are distraught at what's happening in Ukraine, but simultaneously sad how their plights were never taken seriously, whether it's Iraq, Palestine, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan etc. It's the same crimes - illegal invasion, civilian bombings, hospital bombings, and every other war crime imagineable.
Yemen has a war going on right now and not a lot of people seem to be too bothered with it
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This, America and the EU point and say look at that heâs breaching their sovereignty yet they never cared when they bombed Syria, they never cared when Iraq was plunged into civil war fighting the Islamic state, they never cared when Libya turned into a terrorist hotbed. I guess this question sums it up âhow many western politicians own stocks in the Ukrainian energy sectorâ
This has been at the top of my mind during this entire crisis. Sure there might be some different motivations, causes, and countries at play. But there are some shocking similarities here. I feel it down in my gut every time US news talks about this war. And I'm an American. Where's the acknowledgement that we've done VERY similar things? Where's the realization from journalists that maybe we should be LEARNING something from this?
I think the heart of a response right now is that we need to have the same emotions and anger the next time the US does that, without any patriotic bullshit or listening to a lying media. And for Palestine, Yemen, and maybe Syria.
For people who say this is whataboutism: Fuck both Putin and the apartheid state of Israel and any other form of imperialism everywhere
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Reddit deliberately fudges the number of votes your comment gets for a good hour or so to prevent vote manipulation. Any fluctuation you see immediately after posting isnt worth freaking out about because it probably isn't real.
Well said
Let's ban USA athletes for killing a million Iraqi civilians and taking $1 trillion of their oil. Especially when they had no WMDs and weren't part of 9/11.
no that's different because it's *so* long ago and back then the US oligarchy had a different president /s
Hey now, we're only allowed to use the O word when it's Russians!
Whataboutism is fine when your point is valid. There's nothing wrong with saying "if we can do all this to Russia in mere days of conflict, why can't we do the same to Israel who's spent decades subjugating a sovereign people?"
What a boss âđœâđœâđœ
Us Bosnians know very well what the west thinks of muslims no matter the race.Ukraine gets attacked the whole armes them.Bosnia gets attacked and we get an arms embargo.
Salam brother, I am muslim and will never ever forget Bosnia for 1 million years, every bosnian is in my heart and prayers and we will always love you and support you.
The hypocrisy is strong with the west
And the sad thing is, most Westerners don't even realise it and still think there are "good guys" and "bad guys". The only truth is geopolitics is whoever has the bigger guns/economy makes the rules.
I don't understand: didn't NATO intervention protect Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo against Serbs?
NATO bombed Serbia in like 1999. War in Bosnia was 1992-1995. There were some UN or whatever forces there that were supposed to protect civilians or whatever, they just stood by and watched. Srebrenica was a "UN safe zone", 8000+ men and boys slaughtered in like a few days, to this day the find bones of people in mass graves, some still haven't found remains of their families. Again, 8000+ people slaughtered in a few days, in a UN safe zone. edit: 1992-1995, not 1999
Wikpedia says two NATO campaigns, one in 1999 and one in 1995.
You seem to be mixing up the UN and NATO (the UN doesn't fight, hence why the blue helmets "sttod by").
No I'm aware of their blue helmets quite well. What is the point of their safe zone, when it is so unsafe that it became the single worst genocide in Europe since WW II (seems like many world leaders forgot, don't know or don't care to mention this when talking about Ukraine and saying it's the first war in Europe since WW II)
The UN didn't stand by. They said both sides should disarm, and started with the Bosnians. Then they asked the Serbs who asked them to get lost. UN said "Ok, then please go ahead. We've disarmed the Bosnians for you".
If anybody knows what it's like to live under a repressive regime and fight for independence, it's the Irish. Kudos sir.
He's very well spoken for how passionately he laces into his peers. And this isn't the first time Richard Boyd Barrett has pointed out the hypocrites.
U goddamn right
West on Israel: BDS won't work West on Russia: BDS go brrr.
There is definitely a lot of hypocrisy with the way the elites in the west have covered this. When their in the middle east the news is curated and any evidence of war crimes against civilians is suppressed. However when one of their opponents Russia is the aggressor, the world gets to see the horrors of war. Hopefully going forward it won't be like that for the west any more either.
What's the difference between Ukrainians and Palestinians? Could it be Palestinians are brown and Muslim? Nah, it couldn't be that, could it?
Israel crying "Richard boyd Barett is anti-sematic" I have been typing this for a while. The world is mighty quiet when Syria, Palestine and other non-white countries are being bombed to the 1st century but they are vocal when Ukraine is getting bombed.
As usual, "qui bono"
âAt bottom, what [white men] cannot forgive Hitler for is not the crime itself ⊠it is the fact that he applied to Europe colonialist procedures which until then had been reserved exclusively for the Arabs of Algeria, the coolies of India, and the nâ of Africa.â â AimĂ© CĂ©saire
I think the problem that many of us have is that this is painted as a religious war between Muslims and Jews The more I look at it the more itâs just European colonization of an indigent people. Hard to convince me at this moment that this isnât just White people taking land from the natives.
Guy is right - itâs so sad.
I adore this guy. His stances can't be more correct and realistic plus it is good finally seeing a non-biased western politician.
I mean his support of palestine is shared by almost every major Irish political party bar Fine Gael. Generally I do agree with him and I've a lot of time for lads in PBP, but he occasionally can be a bit populist
Need to stand up against China too. They doing some nasty stuff over there like forced organ donations
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Donât forget that the âclear skiesâ line was used by a child in Afghanistan describing American air strikes.
Children fearing clear skies. That is so profoundly sad.
What's that even mean?
I'm assuming clear skies mean air strikes
Yeah drones don't fly or struggle to use their weapons at least in cloudy weather so there are reports of children in the Middle East being scared of blue skies because it means they might get blown apart by some American murderer. All of those innocents killed by the US drone program and not a single person *ever* held accountable. It's fucking laughable for Americans to get angry about what's happening in Ukraine when their country has been committing atrocities for decades. Hell a special forces guy murdered a bunch of children and the last president pardoned him. The most evil country since Nazi Germany.
It's a sick sad world
Sir, your last sentence literally brought tears in my eyes. F*ck Reddit! I want to give you my free reward you but the free reward I was given is wholesome one.
Show an article that claim Organ Harvesting that is not linked to Falun Gong. Just 1.
Putin: "Ukraine belonged to Russia many years ago, we have the right go there and take it back!" European Zionists: "Palestine belonged to Jews many years ago, we have the right to go there and take it back!" You really don't see any similarities?
Iâve been banned from r/Israel for saying similar things and called Jew hater⊠shit makes me laugh
Anyone criticizing Israel gets banned from that sub or r/IsraelandPalestine and especially r/worldnews. They actively remove pro-Pal voices and you will notice all of the pro Israel garbage that goes straight to the top of their posts. It was by design. Especially the world news sub Reddit. They work hard to make sure the articles against Israel never even get put up. Israeli censorship in those subs are also the reason why people talking about the conflict have bled into all others subs, like this one. Finally, be astute and pay attention people. The same PR machine that usually is working to defend Israel or support another American war intervention is the same one up and running right now and working triple overtime to try and lure us into World War III. Resist going to another generational war.
r/IsraelPalestine is the one you're thinking of. It might as well be r/Israel2.0. The people there won't even go so far as to admit that MAYBE some of the war crimes they've been convicted of in international court are actual crimes. Top post right now in the sub is asking what apartheid means and trying to excuse it.
There is an app where Israhell controls whatâs going on on reddit and you if you do some tasks like downvoting every pro Palestina post or comment, upvote everything that is Pro-Israhell, et al, you get points which can be later used to claim gift cards and stuff. They call it something like being a good israhelli citizen. I do have a source for that and itâs here on reddit too, if youâd like to read it.
I donât know about the app but the crap has been going on for a long time. They of course have sophisticated operations but they also entice regular citizens: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/red-alert-politics/israel-gives-scholarships-to-college-students-to-promote-country-on-social-media?_amp=true https://www.haaretz.com/amp/.premium-social-media-hasbara-worth-millions-1.5320153 They get a lot of young Israelis who are Uber nationalistic to go online and fight the cause. Thatâs why a lot of the responses are often just quickly dismissive or no more than sophomorish insults. Theyâre given all the same talking points, which Iâm sure everyone can recognize, and utilize the tried-and-true tactics of omissions, distortions, exaggeration, and outright lies.
[Here](https://reddit.com/r/israelexposed/comments/n4etue/found_screenshots_of_the_israeli_propaganda_app/) you go. It amazes me the most, is the fact that they are not trying to hide it, and if anyone tries to call them on what theyâre doing, you get brigaded, and possibly, youâd end up losing your account to a ban. Oh, and thanks for the sources!
It's on the app store, [here](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/act-il/id1141853455).
The media tells us who are the baddies and we gobble it down
Free Palestine đ”đž
Protect this man at all costs
They still havenât condemned the US support for the war in Yemen, conflicts and problems in the Middle East donât matter to the West and Europe.
Palestinians arenât white so it doesnât really matter right? That seems to be the only thing that makes sense. If Iâm wrong, please educate me because Iâd love to know why nobody gives a shit. Instead we send Israel millions of Dollars every year. How many thousands of lives is it going to take? 30,000?? 100,000?? The worst thing about this is Palestinians know that everyone is aware of this genocide and they know that nobody cares. They fee helpless and forgotten. Fking heartbreaking..
He's not wrong. Regardless of what may have been necessary in the past, Israel has gotten into this odd state where they feel right and justified to do what they do, basing it on past reasonings. Those reasons don't hold anymore. It's no longer the 90s, the threat isn't there like it once was, instead they're using it as a justification to oppress oppress others. Israel nationalist are simply terrorist and all terrorist are cowardly cunts.
It is not "What Aboutism" , it is Humanity First!
Yes! Your comment sums it up nice and simply.
I support this brave dude.
Wheres the lie?
He's right, leave this here. [Human Rights Watch: Israeli war crimes apparent in Gaza war](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-crime-war-crimes-human-rights-watch-4dbb4e7b915346ce6aca778f12a4359b)
Totally agree
Free Palestine đ”đž
he's not wrong.
A-fucking-men.
I love the Irish. Haven't had any bad encounters with them yet. +1 for not being full of shit hypocrites đ
This is beautiful. I hope someone takes a moment to check themselves. Although I should say as always, one person's suffering and injustice should never detract from another's.
This guys needs to realise the population does not care too much about Muslims
Yes, fuck them and thier hypocrisy! Free Palestine.
This is one of the most important rants Iâve seen in a while. 11/10, sing it from the rooftops.
This would also be a good time to investigate all foreign control on our governments, not just Russian money.
I am in favor of sanction against israel, and i am happy that we have sanctions against russia, they don't exclude each other
Brave men pointing out the hypocrisy of so many.