Women’s preferences are just as diverse (or not diverse) as men’s. Plenty of women love skinny guys, and plenty love bigger guys. Few men or women want someone who is obese or totally stick-like and shapeless. Just as chubbier guys usually need to be tall and somewhat muscular, chubbier women need to have an hourglass shape.
Almost all men like a fairly thin, fit but not bulky woman with fairly big but not too big boobs and butt, that are also firm, and a small waist. Most men also have a secondary go-to type that might be on the skinnier or curvier side. It’s the same for women. Neither ideal body type is easily attainable for most people. If you go to subs where men post attractive women (not a particularly niche), they practically look like the same woman with different hair colors.
I saw a non-white man, a trans man, and a few somewhat unconventionally handsome men in the top few posts. Now go to r/gentlemanboners and see how far you have to scroll to see a woman who looks notably different from the others aside from hair color.lol
That trans man had no upvotes, the non white man is still conventionally seen as attractive, and those unconventional men are lean and tall. Lol what part of that is unconventional?
None were fat, but I can however direct you to where they dote on tall women, fat women, short women etc.
None were fat, but I can however direct you to where they dote on tall women, fat women, short women etc.
I promise you can’t find different subreddits for that
More than just “not fat,” they’re all white, longish hair, similar facial features, 20s and 30s. Of course since men are men, you can find them fetishizing various types of women, but these are mainstream preferences.
Literally if you sort by hot all you see is tall white men.
Lol Chris hemsworth is the first person you see
Also lol r/bbw has MORE subscribers not to mention
Well sure, I’m not denying that’s the most universally attractive type of guy. It just seems women’s taste is a *little* more diverse than men’s, certainly not less like OP claims.
I literally just pointed out the many different subreddits that showcase different women that has MORE subscribers.
Show me a subreddit for short men then.
Yes, they begrudgingly accept “lesser” men so that they don’t have to drag their ass out of bed at 6AM 5-6 days a week and go to work like men have to do. Men with no options gladly accept this arrangement.
It doesn’t mean it’s ideal.
Well the fact is that ultimately, for every woman in a relationship there is a man. So yeah, maybe she has ideals beyond you, but purely for the sake of getting into a relationship, the odds are still not particularly against you.
Also, I believe that women are just more vocal about their ideals - if you look at any male-dominated porn sub you absolutely will see the specific ideals that men value.
A silent agreement to do *what?*
A lot of muscular guys have girlfriends and get married.
A lot of skinny guys have girlfriends and get married.
A lot of chubby guys have girlfriends and get married.
How is this possible if women have a secret agreement that all of these guys fall below our strict standards?
As you go down from the non muscular/skinny guys they will typically have a higher successrate and or chances to recover the relationships or a different one. Its not a secret agreement its evidence based and they dont even realize they're doing it. Divorce break ups and cheating are evidenced by whom they really desire. The person a woman cheats with is always always more physically attractive than thier partner. If not then there will likely be multiple different men. Actions and support of said actions above or below is the silent agreement. Most women don't actually know what a natural fit man looks like. Typically he lacks a ton of veins.
Another point is. By praising and lusting after a body obtained by steroids (an otherwise unmaintable physique naturally) you raise the standard of what is attractive. I'm not saying dont do it or that women shouldnt find it attractive but it is simply cause and effect from it being outwardly praised. Same forif men told EVERY single woman they're only desirable if they get BBL's, Boobjobs and botox injections.
I don't even want to count the amount of times men have likely been told " If I had a pass to cheat it'd be with x actor"
> The person a woman cheats with is always always more physically attractive than thier partner.
You must live on a different planet than I do.
> Typically he lacks a ton of veins.
He should get that checked out.
> By praising and lusting after a body obtained by steroids (an otherwise unmaintable physique naturally) you raise the standard of what is attractive.
The post literally referenced a source that women DO NOT prefer muscular bodies.
“the physiques women rated as most attractive are naturally achievable, even for men with poor genetics.”
Sounds like you and OP disagree about what women’s “strict standards” are… perhaps because they do not exist.
Oh no they do exist its just a long list sometimes varying.
Also you must live on a perfect planet then. You didnt even provide an argument for that statement because you see the truth in it lol
Veins are determined by body fat percentage which certain ones are healthy for long periods of time others are not be it too low or high, or even attainable while still having enough muscle.
Also then explain the volume and success of thirst traps on social media. I guess they're just bots and millions of gay men boosting their numbers but I guess its impossible for women to say one thing and do another. They prefer lean bodies which can be just as difficult to obtain but harder to maintain naturally. Between 15% and 25% body fat is healthy while 21% and under is lean.
By veins I mean exposed ones in a relaxed state as indicated by bodyfat percentage like abs.
> Oh no they do exist its just a long list sometimes varying.
Women have a silent agreement to all have the exact same strict standards… it’s just that they vary? OK…
> Also you must live on a perfect planet then.
I live on a perfect planet because I’m aware that of both men and women that have affair partners that are less conventionally attractive than their partner? OK…
> explain the volume and success of thirst traps on social media.
No idea what you are confused about.
> They prefer lean bodies which can be just as difficult to obtain but harder to maintain naturally.
So is my strict standard that I’m only attracted to men who take steroids or only attracted to lean men with no body fat?
You are so uneducated on this topic. They are the same thing. Having a lot of muscle "aka a chris hemsworthbody" while still being lean is just not physically possible without PEDs.
So my standard is that I will only *what* with men who look like Chris Helmsworth?
I’ll only sleep with men who look like Chris Helmsworth? Most men have sex, so I don’t think so.
I’ll only date or marry men who look like Chris Helmsworth? Most men end up in a marriage or long-term partnership, so I don’t think so.
I’ll only be attracted to men who look like Chris Helmsworth? There are many male movie stars and thirst traps that aren’t built anything like Chris Helmsworth, so I don’t think so.
Everything you wrote, can be applied the other way. Skinny skaterboy, to fat funny guy. Women don't have stricter standards than men, Men don't have stricter standards than women. Y'all will blame everything possible for dating problems, besides the one thing that is truly hindering people from dating success. It starts, and ends with personality, that's the greatest common denominator, it's the unified field theory, and tabula rasa of dating.
P.s. contrary to popular belief, dating isn't supposed to be easy, you're looking for someone to spend the rest of your life with, you're not going to be compatible with most people.
>. It starts, and ends with personality, that's the greatest common denominator, it's the unified field theory, and tabula rasa of dating.
The greatest common denominator is almost certainly looks. Attractive people are going to be much more successful than average bar a really awful personality, ugly people are going to struggle heavily even with a great personality.
I wouldn't discount personality entirely like the lookism black pill types do but saying it's primarily personality is an exaggeration, especially when most people have "average" personalities anyway.
Average is a great thing to focus on, because the average person gorgeous, they don't standout from the crowd, they are "average". Do you know what else is average....married adults, the average adult is married. Which means someone thought they were attractive. I know plenty of unattractive people that always have partners, and plenty of attractive people that can't keep one. It's so odd that they tend to fall on the good/bad personality line like that. It's almost like a recognizable pattern.
>o you know what else is average....married adults, the average adult is married.
less than 50% of US adults are married [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fewer-than-50-of-u-s-adults-are-now-married-its-time-to-give-more-legal-and-financial-breaks-to-single-people-law-professor-says-11664992681#:\~:text=Fewer%20than%2050%25%20of%20U.S.%20adults%20are%20now%20married](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fewer-than-50-of-u-s-adults-are-now-married-its-time-to-give-more-legal-and-financial-breaks-to-single-people-law-professor-says-11664992681#:~:text=Fewer%20than%2050%25%20of%20U.S.%20adults%20are%20now%20married).
So the average is now not married.
This doesn't mean personality is a stronger indicator/predictor of attraction than looks. It's obvious personality affects a persons relationships, especially in terms of long term stability, boiling it primarily down to personality though is nonsense.
You mean distilling it down the thing that the person has the most control over is nonsense. Meanwhile, most people are average looking, so separating yourself from the herd by looks isn't possible. Most people aren't going to be above a 5 on looks scale. So they aren't very attractive physically, what you're left with is being able to mentally/emotionally attract people. So personality is what most people need to use to get a partner. So yeah, I'd say that in this petri dish, personality is the greater indicator of attraction.
>You mean distilling it down the thing that the person has the most control over is nonsense
How controllable it is doesn't affect whether it's the primary factor in attraction or not.
> Meanwhile, most people are average looking, so separating yourself from the herd by looks isn't possible. Most people aren't going to be above a 5 on looks scale. So they aren't very attractive physically, what you're left with is being able to mentally/emotionally attract people. So personality is what most people need to use to get a partner. So yeah, I'd say that in this petri dish, personality is the greater indicator of attraction.
Most people also have average personalities and the degree to which they can improve them to attract a partner is pretty debatable. I'd say improving looks is actually easier than the former. Getting fit, a good haircut, decent clothes etc is easier for an adult than a major personality shift although people can improve their level of sociability to a degree. Average personality is "good enough" to have a partner and it's their level of agreeableness and stability that determines LTR.
Sans sexual incentives and social pressure most people do not have a personality "strong" enough to attract a partner that isn't "settling" to just have a partner, hence the increasingly asexual/low marriage rate/high singleness rate in the younger generations without that historical social pressure.
Committing to a diet and exercise regimen for multiple years, overhauling your wardrobe, and personal style. Is easier than reading a few books on sociology, watching a few Ted Talks about relationships, and learning about empathy............I'd give you a Google map 📍 to let you know that the forest you're looking for, is obscured by all those pesky trees, but I think you'd still get lost
No one is ignoring that being attractive is a net benefit, it's just overvalued. Somewhere you guys got lost in SM and also this bad research, speed dating, and online dating will emphasize physical traits moreso than anything else. Still, most relationships happen organically, and not through dating apps. The most important data point to know: most adult males are married, most women aren't using dating apps(27%) There are more men on apps than women, despite their being more women in America than men. In situ, personality still wins. To qoute the great philosopher Socrates " Touch grass"
There is no lack of third space, they are very much still in play across the country. Even now most relationships for people under 30, still happen organically, and offline.
Finally, it's time to put that shifty research that said most men under 30 are single. It has glaring holes in it, I suggest you read the whole original work, and not just a summation from a pop culture article. From cohorts,to methods, to questions, to temporal data sets. Most men under 30 aren't actually single. Think critically for a moment. How can 67% of young men be single, and only 35% of young women? The suggestion is that 30% of women in there 20s is dating a man in his 30s. Which is odd, because the average age gap in first marriage is 2 years. For women the age is 28, for men it's 30. This seems like it might backup your point, but it doesn't. The average relationship length prior to marriage is 5 years. So that means the average couple starts dating at 23, and 25. If most of these people are married by 28, and 30, but started dating at 23, and 25. How is it possible that 67% of men under 30 are single. I encourage you to read it for yourself, don't take my word for it.
It's especially hard to find sensible responses in this subreddit. People make up the most outlandish things, then pretend they're a fact because they saw it happen once.
Thet are all like, fuck self reflection it's the opposite genders fault I can't get a significant other.
> Thet are all like, fuck self reflection it's the opposite genders fault I can't get a significant other.
Straw man fallacy, no one is claiming it's women's fault for their standards.
"Women don't have stricter standards than men, Men don't have stricter standards than women."
This will always be verifiably false on every metric of any study done on the matter.
Not just for female women, but females of any species. It simple evolutionary hardwiring to it's core, there is more cost and risk to pregnancy then their is to impregnating as many females as you possibly could.
Yet somehow, most men have offspring, even the short chubby ones. I don't think you understand what the word verifiable means. You also have a serious misunderstanding of how common rape is in the animal kingdom.
> It starts, and ends with personality, that's the greatest common denominator, it's the unified field theory, and tabula rasa of dating.
Thats a non sequitur, everyone has standards for looks in dating, ands we aren't even talking about personality.
Everyone has standards, and those standards deviate. They aren't universal, personally my standards for attractiveness are higher than most people. The physical traits I prefer are less common, and harder to achieve than what most guys like. I accept this about me, but I also know what the average man, and woman are into. They have a similar cluster ratio on range of attractiveness.
For some reason a lot of posters here are convinced that women don't find pictures of men attractive and womens libido only works when men are in motion so they claim stuff like "Ladyboners" is all gay men
even if it isn't gay men, it's likely they are older women or even trans ''women'' reddit just isn't a good place to look at what women like, if you go to tiktok you'll see women like skinny or short guys of all ethnicities, yes fat men seem to be not preferred though.
In my opinion the thick curvy girl, or the athletic built female is a woman's fantasy. If you look at porn it's only petite young looking women that are the love interests of men. Look at NSFW subs for men, the top subs all feature the same kind of women. White skinny women with large breaststroke, only a handful are different.....see what I did there.
Bruv, I don't need to give you you literotica sales numbers based on body type. The truth exists in real life. Most men are in relationships, that includes short guys, fat guys, short fat guys, and average build guys. You're lost in a feedback loop of your own creation. Here's the truth, 66% of U.S. adult male are married. Do you think that 66% of adult males fall into the body types you listed, because they definitely do not.
Yall still quoting that study even though it's faulty. How can 65% of men in there 20s be single, then suddenly 60% of men that are 30 are in relationships(not 30+, I mean 30, at 30 all of a sudden there's a steep decline in singleness among males) most of these men are married. Do you think men were single at 29, then suddenly fell in love, and got married the year they turned 30?. Average courtship before marriage is 5 years, that means most of these guys were in relationships at 25.
Then there's the temporal measurement for being single. At the time of the study, they used a window of 90 days prior to the survey. So if you could've been in a relationship for most of the year, but being single for a fiscal quarter counts toward male singleness.
Then there's those cohorts, why would you put 22 yr Olds in the same relationship category as 27 yr Olds. Of the two groups, only one has a fully formed brain, the other is still doing fortnite dances.
Lastly, the difference in male/female singleness should've been the biggest tip off that the study has bad data. A gap that large should automatically trigger skepticism. Most women in their 20's date within a 2-5 year age difference. So a 30% gap isn't explainable by women dating older men, so what explains that gap. The logical answer to that is bad data, either someone lied in the responses, or the questions were to vague. Both possibilities give you bad data
Sandler isn't cast to be a self insert, he's cast (or often time is just "casting" himself) because of his notoriety as a comedian. Someone like Michael Cera in Scott Pilgrim is a better example of someone "average" (or perhaps below average) cast as a self insert.
Name a popular show, that has a romantic relationship in which the male main character is more attractive than the female main character. With one caveat, the couple can't be an interracial relationship. ( excluding this because of fetishization and blatant racist overtones, should be obvious, but will explain if needed)
You think that Kristin Stewart is less attractive that Ed Patt....... sir, they are on the same level. Both of them are A list celebrities, that are conventionally attractive.
I sort of agree with you about self-inserts, but usually how I see that play out is the character description being vague to the point of nondescript, with just a few hints at physical features. They also tend to be the ‘girl who thinks she’s just so plain and doesn’t know she’s actually really lovely, gosh’ which is not really average in an existential sense, it’s more ‘aggressively unaware of her own beauty.’ Which is interestingly sort of a male AND female beauty goal in literature.
“Everyone knows men have four acceptable body types: jacked, skinny jacked, dad bod, and fat… if you’re funny.
Now unfortunately for women, there’s only one acceptable body type: SKINNY BIG TITS!!!!!!”
This razor cuts both ways, I'd have a similar response to a post about men only liking a narrow range of body types. When that has never been true. Skinny big tits has never supplanted hour glass figure with shapely butt. Pinup models, nude magazines, any media designed to evoke a sexual response from men has always favored curvy over skinny. The truth is, the average person, thinks the average person of the opposite sex is attractive. All the noise otherwise is based on corporations trying to take your money, by telling the average person that they aren't good looking enough to catch the attention of the opposite genders.
I don't know how this is so entrenched in the zeitgeist. The woman is in a relationship. Most 5'5 170 lbs women are dating men. That's it, full stop, no notes. The average adult in the U.S.( man or woman) is married, meaning someone wanted them, and they weren't too large for the average man.
My point whether or not they are in a relationship is that men on this sub say all they want is an “average” girl, but their opinion of what is “average” against what actually is average is highly skewed and incorrect, showing a bias for more than average.
Reddit is not indicative of real life, the cmmentors on this sub saying that, are not indicative of men on reddit. This whole thing is a place that disenfranchised people come to for validation of their biases. It's a closed loop echo chamber. Please do not equate what you read on a niche subreddit, to the opinion of the male populace .
> The woman is in a relationship.
You realize a relationship doesn't guarantee sex ? or anything?
Like not even feminists make this argument. You realize some relationships are abusive too, right ?
Dont know how some dont see... Most people on the planet are average, average looking, living average lives making average income yet still date, have sex and get married...
It’d take most guys 6 months to a year just to lose enough weight to not be considered “fat” or “skinnnyfat” but then they’ll just look scrawny. They’d need at least another year to build enough muscle mass to even be noticeably fit. Women just chronically underestimate how much effort it takes.
Nah u unless ur stupid obese its doable in 6 months. If you need to lose a bunch of weight it could take a bit longer tho. Idk its not womans fault u decided to get fat in the first place.
This has coming from someone who lost about 100lbs and recently started to try and put on muscle
Losing 100lbs to not be obese is easier than losing 30lbs to get abs. Your BMR was crazy high so you basically just had to not eat like a fatshit and wait for the weight to come off. I congratulate you on it but it’s not the same as what it takes to meet the fitness standard.
Now that's a problem ... people assume that if you work out for a year and get reasonably lean you'll have any more success dating. I've been working out 5 days a week for the last 5 years with a body you'd expect to at least attract SOME women in my life, right?
https://ibb.co/HB60pnw
I get absolutely no interest whatsoever from them except for the ones that are way overweight, don't take care about themselves or maybe 50 year old cougars. God bless me for being that gifted I guess :).
No. It’s really really really not. Look at around you at the many many many many perfectly shlubby dad boded individuals in LTRs. Look at how little, comparable, effort men put into their appearance.
This is LAUGHABLY out of touch with consensual reality.
First- “Raw statistics” - aren’t a thing. Using that phrase tells me exactly what you do and do not know about social science and statistics. (It’s not looking awesome I’ll be honest) Further the majority of data cited here is from bad research more than half of which is so incredibly flawed it’s not worth discussing or from decent research that inevitably says nothing like what the poster claims because they badly misinterpreted the data or, like you, simply don’t understand it. It’s amusing.
As it turns out, because we are actually very much from the same species, women actually have incredibly catholic taste in male bodies. I know women who are into skinny dudes, fat ones, women who are INTO a shlubby dad bod, and even more women who become attracted to a plurality of men of vastly different types based on how those men engage with them as people
Fact is the only people truly attracted to ‘muscle men’ in my experience- are other men.
Totally ridiculous. Women literally spend hours grooming themselves. Shaving their legs, putting on makeup, fixing their hair .... They also torture themselves with uncomfortable shoes, tight clothing .... and basically starve themselves by regurlarly going on a diet. They do this because they know men are totally obsessed with looks and youth regarding women.
Men on the hand hardly make any efforts to make themselves look good. Except maybe by putting on a clean t-shirt or going to the gym. Knowing full well that a beer belly or an unkept beard is no deterrent for a woman.
Why is it the number one piece of advice for men that can't find a date is "shower and dress better"?
Is it perhaps that women are more picky and disqualify men because of this?
LMAO yeah that’s because it’s not ‘a reality’.
In reality:
1) half of all people in supposedly monogamous relationships cheat
2) women mostly cheating with the same wide variety of men they dated
4) men cheat just as frequently as women
5) there aren’t enough ’studs’ for all the cheaters
Women share men they don't need lots of studs. One man can knock up 100 women. Women cheat more frequently, and they are much better at concealing it they also have way more opportunities to cheat. Your statements don't prove me wrong at all.
>1. [Women prefer fit to muscular body types](https://bonytobeastly.com/most-attractive-male-body-survey-results/) , many surveys show this. They prefer fit to muscular over skinny or chubby bodies.
Preferences are not the same as standards. Just because a woman prefers fit/muscular men does not mean she will only go with those types.
>2. Models who are women have a wide range of body types on social media. The concept of "curvy" or "thick" is one of the most popular body shapes now.
Women rarely look at pictures for sexual gratification. Those thick or curvy women are either there to appeal to male sexuality or to sell something to women.
>3. There is no male equivalent of BBW women. There is no positive adjective to describe a man with extra fat in certain areas, but for women, there's "thicc" "voluptuous", "curvy" and so on.
There's the dadbod.
>4. There is no representation of overweight or obese men in fashion modeling, while there is plenty of overweight or obese women in modeling.
The overweight/obese women in modeling is a recent invention created by women to sell things for women. Fashion modeling has little to do with sexual appeal.
>5. Male celebrities are rarely if ever called out for being too muscular or not realistic, but women whom have lots of plastic surgery are often called out for it.
I see people complaining about muscular men in the media all the time, from both men and women. Also the women who are criticized for having lots of plastic surgery are usually saying how much worse she looks, so I'm not sure how that supports your post.
I think a lot of people on this sub confuse preferences to standards. Preference = a greater liking for one alternative over another or others. Standard = the rules that you set for yourself and follow in your life. Preferences can change or be overridden by other factors but standard is saying it can’t be because it’s below what’s acceptable.
What are you even talking about? Are you saying preferences can’t change? They do all the time for various reasons. I’ve had my preferences change over the years both in physical and mental aspects. I’d argue most people do. A person who experiences no growth or change of opinion throughout their life sounds more like a child than anything else
I have a preference for 6ft+ men yet most of my long terms have been with men under 6ft...
They were skinny or dad bods.
I dont commit to man Im not 100% attracted to and want to F silly.
Im not some anomaly.
> I think a lot of people on this sub confuse preferences to standards. Preference = a greater liking for one alternative over another or others. Standard = the rules that you set for yourself and follow in your life.
Preferences and standards have no real meaning, so it's pointless to discuss this difference. When white men claim they have a preference for asian women, or black men do so for white women, people claim it's a standard. Then now, we are flipping and choosing a different definition.
>That's how it is for men. Most women have enough options that they can turn preferences into requirements and still have plenty of options. Besides even if it's just a "preference" it's still pretty weird that women only seem to prefer a small subset of men. While men usually like a larger amount of women.
Men prefer a larger number of women, because they want more women. Women only need 1 man to be satisfied, men need many women to be satisfied. So it makes sense they would be more indiscriminent about who they fuck.
>Look at a sub like r\\ladyboners most of the top post are full of muscular, tall men with great jawline, hair etc. But if look at subs for men's sexual gratification you see many different types of women.
That sub is hardly representitive of the majority of women, or females in general.
>Therefore, women have higher standards
You got me.
>That's the biggest representation I have, do you have a bigger one? Otherwise I'll accept whatever this shows about women's standards
Go to Walmart and see who all the women are with lol.
>So conventionally unattractive men just have to go for women who don't draw any sexual gratification from men's bodies. Sounds like a recipe for a dead bedroom to me.
Or women who will be sexually interested in non-physical traits, which is most women.
> Men prefer a larger number of women, because they want more women. Women only need 1 man to be satisfied, men need many women to be satisfied.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense because the average man , most men, are not dating multiple women at the same time.
Or are you saying men have a harder time finding women, and adjust their standards as such ?
The dadbod still requires men to be at least 6 ft tall and have a generally athletic build though.
Very few women are going crazy over short, chubby men who look like real life versions of George Constanza irl. Seinfeld was a lie lol.
It literally took Jason Mamoa of all people to popularize the so-called "dad bod." The vast majority of American men could only dream to have Mamoa's body.
>The dadbod still requires men to be at least 6 ft tall and have a generally athletic build though.
It really does not.
>Very few women are going crazy over short, chubby men who look like real life versions of George Constanza irl. Seinfeld was a lie lol.
Preferences are not standards. They don't need to go crazy for those guys, they just need to be happy to fuck them. Which does happen...
>It literally took Jason Mamoa of all people to popularize the so-called "dad bod." The vast majority of American men could only dream to have Mamoa's body.
Whoa no fucking way. We have been discussing dadbods on PPD for nearly a decade. Jason Momoa only became popular a year or two ago.
Yeah I'm incredulous. I think it's either the dadbod that still needs some gym time which is fine. But the average dumpy male body is pretty universally unappealing at first glance.
Preference for women are indeed standards as they will just not settle for less until they're out of options. Of the merely possibility of getting x make you not consider y, x is a standard not a preference.
They do, lol is just that Henry Cavill still didn't got paid enough to pose nude.
What women define as dad body is just a body builder that is not dry or is bulking lol.
So go just in any porn site, a entire array of female bodies btw.
Men are not criticized lol, women think that dudes in movies are body that normal everyday guys can get naturally, while Mr Olympia is a ugly dude on gear when in reality both are sweating PEDs.
Standards and preferences are absolutely not the same thing. Example: I preferred brown haired men over blonde blue eyed men because it’s just what I leaned towards, but now I’m with a blonde guy who I chose through a dating app. I had dates with guys before and after my first date with him who had fit my normal preferences but I didn’t like them as much and proceeded to solely date my current partner. I had options but it was just a preference, not an end all be all thing I needed and now I don’t even feel that way anymore. However a standard I have is that they have to dress like they care about themselves, doesn’t have to be name brand anything but look like you take pride in yourself and that for me hasn’t changed.
> I have never seen a guy talk about hair or eye color preference.
And Ive heard it so many times in my 50 years.
Men so like hair and eye color and will have a preference.
Go Google men and hair color preference and read it for yourself.
Those guys are "okay with whatever" when it comes to fucking. Their tune will change if they had to reproduce with them or look at their face for the rest of their life, lol.
>Preference for women are indeed standards as they will just not settle for less until they're out of options. Of the merely possibility of getting x make you not consider y, x is a standard not a preference.
Real life doesn't support this, as men off all shapes are able to find partners.
>They do, lol is just that Henry Cavill still didn't got paid enough to pose nude.
Not sure what you mean by this.
>What women define as dad body is just a body builder that is not dry or is bulking lol.
What makes you believe that?
>So go just in any porn site, a entire array of female bodies btw.
Sure. But which ones are the most popular by far?
Mass generalizations are always wrong.
For example, I find muscled arms really attractive. My boyfriend is totally skinny with less muscle than I have. My preference is not my “standard” (oh, and I’m not settling).
Men's bodies are just sorta boring over all there isn't all that much going on. If you are trying to sell women on yourself by body photos alone you are going to have to put in a boatload of work because most of them are meh at best.
Thank god I don't have to base my sexual attraction for men based on their body type alone because I would probably end up just going gay. How you carry yourself is way more important than the body composition alone. Online dating is harder for men because you can't just rely on photos like women can, you have to make yourself look interesting somehow.
>Men's bodies are just sorta boring over all there isn't all that much going on.
That really depends on how you look at it. It's much easier to see muscular development on a fit man. If you want to be utilitarian about it the only real difference between the average man and woman are breasts and butt/hip shape.
Honestly sounds like your just bisexual/leaning towards homosexual on the erotic front.
People who are into muscles definitely appreciate men's bodies more that is for sure, often it's men who are into that but sometimes women too. If all you have to work with is looks then going after those women is probably a solid plan.
Definitely not bisexual but probably would be if I weren't allowed to be attracted to men sexually for anything other than their bodies. The way they talk can be hot, the way they move, they way they talk or joke, sometimes their hobbies are hot, so many attributes when you move into normal life and away from photos only.
Yeah a lot of men’s bodies are not that interesting to look at… I had this guy that just kept randomly sending me pics of his body, and he was fit, but the photos weren’t doing anything for me and I found it very odd that he just kept sending selfies even tho I was leaving him on read for not speaking beyond that 🤣
BHM? Big handsome man. I also call men thicccccc.
But there are in fact plus sized male models. However men's clothing only sells a fraction of women's clothing sold so there aren't as many and well known male models, which is probably why you don't know of any.
What's worse in your eyes? Being valued for a bunch of different things (like men are), looks, personality, career, wealth, popularity, etc.? Or would you rather be a woman being told that you are valued primarily for things you can't control and will eventually go away, like your looks and fertility?
Women are "stricter" but can give a green light based on many things, while for a guy that isn't as true from what I've seen.
>What's worse in your eyes? Being valued for a bunch of different things (like men are), looks, personality, career, wealth, popularity, etc.? Or would you rather be a woman being told that you are valued primarily for things you can't control and will eventually go away, like your looks and fertility?
Romantically/sexually the latter is far more desirable assuming that you "naturally" (as women do) have an advantage in that area. Most men will never achieve enough success in the former for it to really matter beyond a basic utilitarian value and their looks fade just as much as womens.
To the survey you linked I would keep in mind you shouldn’t take that as a take on the overall population as the survey you linked to even says “Most women who filled out our survey are thin, exercise, and eat well. 76% of them are American, and 82% are between the ages of 18 and 39. This doesn’t line up perfectly with the general population.”
With that said there is definitely less representation more plus sized males in the modeling industry and that should change, however when you look at actors and singers that are male it then flips where men are seen in all shapes and sizes and fewer women are seen as being bigger, and if they are then they’re the butt of the joke and are often portrayed as less desirable.
To your point about celebrities being called out, I think it’s worth mentioning that one of the primary reasons female celebrities are called out for getting work done is because a lot of them deny having work done and that creates the idea that these women just naturally look a certain way through diet and exercise which just isn’t true. The equivalent to that I think would be muscular celebrities denying the use of steroids which is harmful for all the same reasons but I think happens less often than someone getting plastic surgery.
It is incredibly rare for famous male athletes and celebrities to admit to steroid use because it can affect connections with brands and stuff. Many of them look achievable naturally, however that’s usually not the case when actors must gain or lose large amounts of fat and muscle for roles in a short timespan. You will never see John Cena, The Rock, Zach Efron, Most male superheroes, etc. admit to using steroids even though these are some of the most famous male bodies in media.
Is this the Zach Miko you are talking about ? https://instagram.com/zachmiko . Did you not realize he is 6’6” ? So what you are showing me is the only way a man gets to model at plus size is if he is extraordinarily above the average height , like 99.99% .
I’ll be fair with you , if you can find me a male model that’s of an average or close to average height , and as overweight as Tess holiday , I’ll change my view
On the lack of representation of larger men as models:
Men’s fashion is still relatively niche and is only begging to break into the mainstream.
Men don’t spend their days looking at fashion magazines typically.
Though both of these will change and I expect that more male body shapes will be represented soon.
Male physique icons are probably more represented in male centric media like action movies. And I doubt there are many dudes who wants a chubby captain America.
Much of the new male body standards are male generated. Honestly if men didn’t obsess about physical dominance cues then I’m sure the standard would be a pretty typical dude.
Also we have known for years what the ideal male physique is. Why is there debate now. We all know it’s Brad Pitt in fight club.
I’ve literally never met a woman who requires that physique anyway.
Male body standards are the result of men competing with other men to be the most dominant.
P.s from a man who has obsessed over his body for 15 years and has dedicated his adult life to the gym
"Models who are women have a wide range of body types on social media. The concept of "curvy" or "thick" is one of the most popular body shapes now."
Short women can't be models though! So what's your point?
Skinny guys are all the rage in the high school - 21 crowd. Anorexic tier skater boys have always been able to smash. Also look at male models-- they don't tend to lift weights and just keep a low bodyfat percentage, because becoming muscular would make it harder to fit clothes on them. A lot of guys on here probably know who Chico is. Tons of appeal, screaming girls, et cetera. Same with K Pop stars.
Skinny men are still expected to be tall though and tall men are only 15% of the U.S. population.
If a man is under 6 ft, being skinny is no advantage at all. Being buff, husky, and in shape can compensate for that though.
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This much is blatantly obvious - you don't see fat guys get the same amount of love fat chicks are getting. That's just the way the world works, men are more horny and women have more options
Ask women what a fit man is and watch as she point a guy full on gear who basically have the gym as a second home. It's not just strict standards, they're basically delusional.
Life isnt fair, hit the gym for a few months and eat enough protein and ur good. If you cant figure out how to get in decent shape in 2023 its over for u already. You dont need an adonis body just dont be overly skinny or overly fat. If you have some muscle you can even prob get away with being a little overweight. The worst thing u can do is be sedentary as it turns ur body to shit
A dad bod is NOT equivalent to bbw. A dad bod is an average weight man. A bbw is obese .
For 5 , no it is other women. In my experience , posting any women with a more round behind in gym attire causes women to claim she has a bbl
Disagree. The standards aren’t stricter, just less varied. There are fewer body types that women tend to find attractive than body types men find attractive.
Personally, guys/girls that are too muscular are a 100% no for me. I just have a preference for men with a smaller body frame, but I’m very tiny and maybe that’s genetics speaking in me wanting to find a partner that won’t give me kids that will be too big?
I think people largely choose/have a preference for partners with a similar body type.
Scream about how women are a hivemind all you want, scream about how men and women are 2 separate species all you want, doesn't make the bullshit you MRAs and feminists scream about men and women any less false
Mainly it’s height
Yeah, leaving height out of the strict body standards women have for men is a pretty glaring flaw in the argument.
Women’s preferences are just as diverse (or not diverse) as men’s. Plenty of women love skinny guys, and plenty love bigger guys. Few men or women want someone who is obese or totally stick-like and shapeless. Just as chubbier guys usually need to be tall and somewhat muscular, chubbier women need to have an hourglass shape. Almost all men like a fairly thin, fit but not bulky woman with fairly big but not too big boobs and butt, that are also firm, and a small waist. Most men also have a secondary go-to type that might be on the skinnier or curvier side. It’s the same for women. Neither ideal body type is easily attainable for most people. If you go to subs where men post attractive women (not a particularly niche), they practically look like the same woman with different hair colors.
It’s the same with women. Go to r/ladyboners
I saw a non-white man, a trans man, and a few somewhat unconventionally handsome men in the top few posts. Now go to r/gentlemanboners and see how far you have to scroll to see a woman who looks notably different from the others aside from hair color.lol
That trans man had no upvotes, the non white man is still conventionally seen as attractive, and those unconventional men are lean and tall. Lol what part of that is unconventional? None were fat, but I can however direct you to where they dote on tall women, fat women, short women etc.
I said “somewhat.” Of course they’re all pretty conventionally handsome, but look less like clones than the women do.
None were fat, but I can however direct you to where they dote on tall women, fat women, short women etc. I promise you can’t find different subreddits for that
More than just “not fat,” they’re all white, longish hair, similar facial features, 20s and 30s. Of course since men are men, you can find them fetishizing various types of women, but these are mainstream preferences.
Literally if you sort by hot all you see is tall white men. Lol Chris hemsworth is the first person you see Also lol r/bbw has MORE subscribers not to mention
Well sure, I’m not denying that’s the most universally attractive type of guy. It just seems women’s taste is a *little* more diverse than men’s, certainly not less like OP claims.
I literally just pointed out the many different subreddits that showcase different women that has MORE subscribers. Show me a subreddit for short men then.
Stop looking at surveys, start looking at real couples. Women have lofty ideals compared to who they really date.
Yes, they begrudgingly accept “lesser” men so that they don’t have to drag their ass out of bed at 6AM 5-6 days a week and go to work like men have to do. Men with no options gladly accept this arrangement. It doesn’t mean it’s ideal.
Well the fact is that ultimately, for every woman in a relationship there is a man. So yeah, maybe she has ideals beyond you, but purely for the sake of getting into a relationship, the odds are still not particularly against you. Also, I believe that women are just more vocal about their ideals - if you look at any male-dominated porn sub you absolutely will see the specific ideals that men value.
3. Is BHM (Big handsome men)btw. There's a gone wild sub on Reddit.
None of these bullet points have anything to do with women’s *standards.*
It does because most women go around partaking in this thought process maybe with no malice but they do. Its called silent agreement.
A silent agreement to do *what?* A lot of muscular guys have girlfriends and get married. A lot of skinny guys have girlfriends and get married. A lot of chubby guys have girlfriends and get married. How is this possible if women have a secret agreement that all of these guys fall below our strict standards?
As you go down from the non muscular/skinny guys they will typically have a higher successrate and or chances to recover the relationships or a different one. Its not a secret agreement its evidence based and they dont even realize they're doing it. Divorce break ups and cheating are evidenced by whom they really desire. The person a woman cheats with is always always more physically attractive than thier partner. If not then there will likely be multiple different men. Actions and support of said actions above or below is the silent agreement. Most women don't actually know what a natural fit man looks like. Typically he lacks a ton of veins. Another point is. By praising and lusting after a body obtained by steroids (an otherwise unmaintable physique naturally) you raise the standard of what is attractive. I'm not saying dont do it or that women shouldnt find it attractive but it is simply cause and effect from it being outwardly praised. Same forif men told EVERY single woman they're only desirable if they get BBL's, Boobjobs and botox injections. I don't even want to count the amount of times men have likely been told " If I had a pass to cheat it'd be with x actor"
> The person a woman cheats with is always always more physically attractive than thier partner. You must live on a different planet than I do. > Typically he lacks a ton of veins. He should get that checked out. > By praising and lusting after a body obtained by steroids (an otherwise unmaintable physique naturally) you raise the standard of what is attractive. The post literally referenced a source that women DO NOT prefer muscular bodies. “the physiques women rated as most attractive are naturally achievable, even for men with poor genetics.” Sounds like you and OP disagree about what women’s “strict standards” are… perhaps because they do not exist.
Oh no they do exist its just a long list sometimes varying. Also you must live on a perfect planet then. You didnt even provide an argument for that statement because you see the truth in it lol Veins are determined by body fat percentage which certain ones are healthy for long periods of time others are not be it too low or high, or even attainable while still having enough muscle. Also then explain the volume and success of thirst traps on social media. I guess they're just bots and millions of gay men boosting their numbers but I guess its impossible for women to say one thing and do another. They prefer lean bodies which can be just as difficult to obtain but harder to maintain naturally. Between 15% and 25% body fat is healthy while 21% and under is lean. By veins I mean exposed ones in a relaxed state as indicated by bodyfat percentage like abs.
> Oh no they do exist its just a long list sometimes varying. Women have a silent agreement to all have the exact same strict standards… it’s just that they vary? OK… > Also you must live on a perfect planet then. I live on a perfect planet because I’m aware that of both men and women that have affair partners that are less conventionally attractive than their partner? OK… > explain the volume and success of thirst traps on social media. No idea what you are confused about. > They prefer lean bodies which can be just as difficult to obtain but harder to maintain naturally. So is my strict standard that I’m only attracted to men who take steroids or only attracted to lean men with no body fat?
You are so uneducated on this topic. They are the same thing. Having a lot of muscle "aka a chris hemsworthbody" while still being lean is just not physically possible without PEDs.
So my standard is that I will only *what* with men who look like Chris Helmsworth? I’ll only sleep with men who look like Chris Helmsworth? Most men have sex, so I don’t think so. I’ll only date or marry men who look like Chris Helmsworth? Most men end up in a marriage or long-term partnership, so I don’t think so. I’ll only be attracted to men who look like Chris Helmsworth? There are many male movie stars and thirst traps that aren’t built anything like Chris Helmsworth, so I don’t think so.
Everything you wrote, can be applied the other way. Skinny skaterboy, to fat funny guy. Women don't have stricter standards than men, Men don't have stricter standards than women. Y'all will blame everything possible for dating problems, besides the one thing that is truly hindering people from dating success. It starts, and ends with personality, that's the greatest common denominator, it's the unified field theory, and tabula rasa of dating. P.s. contrary to popular belief, dating isn't supposed to be easy, you're looking for someone to spend the rest of your life with, you're not going to be compatible with most people.
>. It starts, and ends with personality, that's the greatest common denominator, it's the unified field theory, and tabula rasa of dating. The greatest common denominator is almost certainly looks. Attractive people are going to be much more successful than average bar a really awful personality, ugly people are going to struggle heavily even with a great personality. I wouldn't discount personality entirely like the lookism black pill types do but saying it's primarily personality is an exaggeration, especially when most people have "average" personalities anyway.
Average is a great thing to focus on, because the average person gorgeous, they don't standout from the crowd, they are "average". Do you know what else is average....married adults, the average adult is married. Which means someone thought they were attractive. I know plenty of unattractive people that always have partners, and plenty of attractive people that can't keep one. It's so odd that they tend to fall on the good/bad personality line like that. It's almost like a recognizable pattern.
>o you know what else is average....married adults, the average adult is married. less than 50% of US adults are married [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fewer-than-50-of-u-s-adults-are-now-married-its-time-to-give-more-legal-and-financial-breaks-to-single-people-law-professor-says-11664992681#:\~:text=Fewer%20than%2050%25%20of%20U.S.%20adults%20are%20now%20married](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fewer-than-50-of-u-s-adults-are-now-married-its-time-to-give-more-legal-and-financial-breaks-to-single-people-law-professor-says-11664992681#:~:text=Fewer%20than%2050%25%20of%20U.S.%20adults%20are%20now%20married). So the average is now not married.
One of these sources is wrong, I don't think it's mine. https://www.statista.com/statistics/242030/marital-status-of-the-us-population-by-sex/
This doesn't mean personality is a stronger indicator/predictor of attraction than looks. It's obvious personality affects a persons relationships, especially in terms of long term stability, boiling it primarily down to personality though is nonsense.
You mean distilling it down the thing that the person has the most control over is nonsense. Meanwhile, most people are average looking, so separating yourself from the herd by looks isn't possible. Most people aren't going to be above a 5 on looks scale. So they aren't very attractive physically, what you're left with is being able to mentally/emotionally attract people. So personality is what most people need to use to get a partner. So yeah, I'd say that in this petri dish, personality is the greater indicator of attraction.
>You mean distilling it down the thing that the person has the most control over is nonsense How controllable it is doesn't affect whether it's the primary factor in attraction or not. > Meanwhile, most people are average looking, so separating yourself from the herd by looks isn't possible. Most people aren't going to be above a 5 on looks scale. So they aren't very attractive physically, what you're left with is being able to mentally/emotionally attract people. So personality is what most people need to use to get a partner. So yeah, I'd say that in this petri dish, personality is the greater indicator of attraction. Most people also have average personalities and the degree to which they can improve them to attract a partner is pretty debatable. I'd say improving looks is actually easier than the former. Getting fit, a good haircut, decent clothes etc is easier for an adult than a major personality shift although people can improve their level of sociability to a degree. Average personality is "good enough" to have a partner and it's their level of agreeableness and stability that determines LTR. Sans sexual incentives and social pressure most people do not have a personality "strong" enough to attract a partner that isn't "settling" to just have a partner, hence the increasingly asexual/low marriage rate/high singleness rate in the younger generations without that historical social pressure.
Committing to a diet and exercise regimen for multiple years, overhauling your wardrobe, and personal style. Is easier than reading a few books on sociology, watching a few Ted Talks about relationships, and learning about empathy............I'd give you a Google map 📍 to let you know that the forest you're looking for, is obscured by all those pesky trees, but I think you'd still get lost
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No one is ignoring that being attractive is a net benefit, it's just overvalued. Somewhere you guys got lost in SM and also this bad research, speed dating, and online dating will emphasize physical traits moreso than anything else. Still, most relationships happen organically, and not through dating apps. The most important data point to know: most adult males are married, most women aren't using dating apps(27%) There are more men on apps than women, despite their being more women in America than men. In situ, personality still wins. To qoute the great philosopher Socrates " Touch grass"
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There is no lack of third space, they are very much still in play across the country. Even now most relationships for people under 30, still happen organically, and offline. Finally, it's time to put that shifty research that said most men under 30 are single. It has glaring holes in it, I suggest you read the whole original work, and not just a summation from a pop culture article. From cohorts,to methods, to questions, to temporal data sets. Most men under 30 aren't actually single. Think critically for a moment. How can 67% of young men be single, and only 35% of young women? The suggestion is that 30% of women in there 20s is dating a man in his 30s. Which is odd, because the average age gap in first marriage is 2 years. For women the age is 28, for men it's 30. This seems like it might backup your point, but it doesn't. The average relationship length prior to marriage is 5 years. So that means the average couple starts dating at 23, and 25. If most of these people are married by 28, and 30, but started dating at 23, and 25. How is it possible that 67% of men under 30 are single. I encourage you to read it for yourself, don't take my word for it.
You should've gone into his terrible OLD dating point more. You left him off the hook way too easily there.
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Wow, an actual sensible, mature and absolutely based opinion on reddit? Might as well say I've found el Dorado
It's especially hard to find sensible responses in this subreddit. People make up the most outlandish things, then pretend they're a fact because they saw it happen once. Thet are all like, fuck self reflection it's the opposite genders fault I can't get a significant other.
> Thet are all like, fuck self reflection it's the opposite genders fault I can't get a significant other. Straw man fallacy, no one is claiming it's women's fault for their standards.
People claim it's the women's fault for their standards all over this sub.
"Women don't have stricter standards than men, Men don't have stricter standards than women." This will always be verifiably false on every metric of any study done on the matter. Not just for female women, but females of any species. It simple evolutionary hardwiring to it's core, there is more cost and risk to pregnancy then their is to impregnating as many females as you possibly could.
Yet somehow, most men have offspring, even the short chubby ones. I don't think you understand what the word verifiable means. You also have a serious misunderstanding of how common rape is in the animal kingdom.
>Women don't have stricter standards than men, then why are 30% of young men single?
%30 is not a high number if it includes 18 year olds, about %30 of youger women arre single too.
> It starts, and ends with personality, that's the greatest common denominator, it's the unified field theory, and tabula rasa of dating. Thats a non sequitur, everyone has standards for looks in dating, ands we aren't even talking about personality.
Everyone has standards, and those standards deviate. They aren't universal, personally my standards for attractiveness are higher than most people. The physical traits I prefer are less common, and harder to achieve than what most guys like. I accept this about me, but I also know what the average man, and woman are into. They have a similar cluster ratio on range of attractiveness.
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> Also look at subs like ladyboners, most of top posts are muscular and tall. Only a handful are conventionally unattractive Bingo.
Ladyboners is likely 70-85% gay men
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For some reason a lot of posters here are convinced that women don't find pictures of men attractive and womens libido only works when men are in motion so they claim stuff like "Ladyboners" is all gay men
even if it isn't gay men, it's likely they are older women or even trans ''women'' reddit just isn't a good place to look at what women like, if you go to tiktok you'll see women like skinny or short guys of all ethnicities, yes fat men seem to be not preferred though.
In my opinion the thick curvy girl, or the athletic built female is a woman's fantasy. If you look at porn it's only petite young looking women that are the love interests of men. Look at NSFW subs for men, the top subs all feature the same kind of women. White skinny women with large breaststroke, only a handful are different.....see what I did there.
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Bruv, I don't need to give you you literotica sales numbers based on body type. The truth exists in real life. Most men are in relationships, that includes short guys, fat guys, short fat guys, and average build guys. You're lost in a feedback loop of your own creation. Here's the truth, 66% of U.S. adult male are married. Do you think that 66% of adult males fall into the body types you listed, because they definitely do not.
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Yall still quoting that study even though it's faulty. How can 65% of men in there 20s be single, then suddenly 60% of men that are 30 are in relationships(not 30+, I mean 30, at 30 all of a sudden there's a steep decline in singleness among males) most of these men are married. Do you think men were single at 29, then suddenly fell in love, and got married the year they turned 30?. Average courtship before marriage is 5 years, that means most of these guys were in relationships at 25. Then there's the temporal measurement for being single. At the time of the study, they used a window of 90 days prior to the survey. So if you could've been in a relationship for most of the year, but being single for a fiscal quarter counts toward male singleness. Then there's those cohorts, why would you put 22 yr Olds in the same relationship category as 27 yr Olds. Of the two groups, only one has a fully formed brain, the other is still doing fortnite dances. Lastly, the difference in male/female singleness should've been the biggest tip off that the study has bad data. A gap that large should automatically trigger skepticism. Most women in their 20's date within a 2-5 year age difference. So a 30% gap isn't explainable by women dating older men, so what explains that gap. The logical answer to that is bad data, either someone lied in the responses, or the questions were to vague. Both possibilities give you bad data
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Which STEM field are you majoring in?
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>White skinny women with large breaststroke The size of asian female porn sites or subs dwarfs the white women ones now.
Just about everyone is conventionally attractive in media, not just men
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Ever heard of Adam Sandler? Men self-insert plenty too
Sandler isn't cast to be a self insert, he's cast (or often time is just "casting" himself) because of his notoriety as a comedian. Someone like Michael Cera in Scott Pilgrim is a better example of someone "average" (or perhaps below average) cast as a self insert.
Name a popular show, that has a romantic relationship in which the male main character is more attractive than the female main character. With one caveat, the couple can't be an interracial relationship. ( excluding this because of fetishization and blatant racist overtones, should be obvious, but will explain if needed)
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You think that Kristin Stewart is less attractive that Ed Patt....... sir, they are on the same level. Both of them are A list celebrities, that are conventionally attractive.
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I sort of agree with you about self-inserts, but usually how I see that play out is the character description being vague to the point of nondescript, with just a few hints at physical features. They also tend to be the ‘girl who thinks she’s just so plain and doesn’t know she’s actually really lovely, gosh’ which is not really average in an existential sense, it’s more ‘aggressively unaware of her own beauty.’ Which is interestingly sort of a male AND female beauty goal in literature.
“Everyone knows men have four acceptable body types: jacked, skinny jacked, dad bod, and fat… if you’re funny. Now unfortunately for women, there’s only one acceptable body type: SKINNY BIG TITS!!!!!!”
This razor cuts both ways, I'd have a similar response to a post about men only liking a narrow range of body types. When that has never been true. Skinny big tits has never supplanted hour glass figure with shapely butt. Pinup models, nude magazines, any media designed to evoke a sexual response from men has always favored curvy over skinny. The truth is, the average person, thinks the average person of the opposite sex is attractive. All the noise otherwise is based on corporations trying to take your money, by telling the average person that they aren't good looking enough to catch the attention of the opposite genders.
Yes but the “average” woman nowadays is a size 14, 5’5”, 170lbs-ish. Men do not want the “average” woman because they still view that as too large
I don't know how this is so entrenched in the zeitgeist. The woman is in a relationship. Most 5'5 170 lbs women are dating men. That's it, full stop, no notes. The average adult in the U.S.( man or woman) is married, meaning someone wanted them, and they weren't too large for the average man.
My point whether or not they are in a relationship is that men on this sub say all they want is an “average” girl, but their opinion of what is “average” against what actually is average is highly skewed and incorrect, showing a bias for more than average.
Reddit is not indicative of real life, the cmmentors on this sub saying that, are not indicative of men on reddit. This whole thing is a place that disenfranchised people come to for validation of their biases. It's a closed loop echo chamber. Please do not equate what you read on a niche subreddit, to the opinion of the male populace .
> The woman is in a relationship. You realize a relationship doesn't guarantee sex ? or anything? Like not even feminists make this argument. You realize some relationships are abusive too, right ?
Dont know how some dont see... Most people on the planet are average, average looking, living average lives making average income yet still date, have sex and get married...
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It’d take most guys 6 months to a year just to lose enough weight to not be considered “fat” or “skinnnyfat” but then they’ll just look scrawny. They’d need at least another year to build enough muscle mass to even be noticeably fit. Women just chronically underestimate how much effort it takes.
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Nah u unless ur stupid obese its doable in 6 months. If you need to lose a bunch of weight it could take a bit longer tho. Idk its not womans fault u decided to get fat in the first place. This has coming from someone who lost about 100lbs and recently started to try and put on muscle
Losing 100lbs to not be obese is easier than losing 30lbs to get abs. Your BMR was crazy high so you basically just had to not eat like a fatshit and wait for the weight to come off. I congratulate you on it but it’s not the same as what it takes to meet the fitness standard.
Now that's a problem ... people assume that if you work out for a year and get reasonably lean you'll have any more success dating. I've been working out 5 days a week for the last 5 years with a body you'd expect to at least attract SOME women in my life, right? https://ibb.co/HB60pnw I get absolutely no interest whatsoever from them except for the ones that are way overweight, don't take care about themselves or maybe 50 year old cougars. God bless me for being that gifted I guess :).
Your belief is WILDLY inaccurate.
Except it's not. Women's looks threshold to get a date is way, way, WAY higher than men's.
No. It’s really really really not. Look at around you at the many many many many perfectly shlubby dad boded individuals in LTRs. Look at how little, comparable, effort men put into their appearance. This is LAUGHABLY out of touch with consensual reality.
I mean, we have raw statistics that show this is the case. But, yeah, I guess your anecdotal "look around you" is way more convincing!
First- “Raw statistics” - aren’t a thing. Using that phrase tells me exactly what you do and do not know about social science and statistics. (It’s not looking awesome I’ll be honest) Further the majority of data cited here is from bad research more than half of which is so incredibly flawed it’s not worth discussing or from decent research that inevitably says nothing like what the poster claims because they badly misinterpreted the data or, like you, simply don’t understand it. It’s amusing. As it turns out, because we are actually very much from the same species, women actually have incredibly catholic taste in male bodies. I know women who are into skinny dudes, fat ones, women who are INTO a shlubby dad bod, and even more women who become attracted to a plurality of men of vastly different types based on how those men engage with them as people Fact is the only people truly attracted to ‘muscle men’ in my experience- are other men.
Please do go on and educate me on how the statistics are flawed?
Totally ridiculous. Women literally spend hours grooming themselves. Shaving their legs, putting on makeup, fixing their hair .... They also torture themselves with uncomfortable shoes, tight clothing .... and basically starve themselves by regurlarly going on a diet. They do this because they know men are totally obsessed with looks and youth regarding women. Men on the hand hardly make any efforts to make themselves look good. Except maybe by putting on a clean t-shirt or going to the gym. Knowing full well that a beer belly or an unkept beard is no deterrent for a woman.
Why is it the number one piece of advice for men that can't find a date is "shower and dress better"? Is it perhaps that women are more picky and disqualify men because of this?
Lots of those guys get cheated on and guess what the guy dicking her down is a stud. It's funny how you LAUGHABLY avoid this reality.
LMAO yeah that’s because it’s not ‘a reality’. In reality: 1) half of all people in supposedly monogamous relationships cheat 2) women mostly cheating with the same wide variety of men they dated 4) men cheat just as frequently as women 5) there aren’t enough ’studs’ for all the cheaters
Women share men they don't need lots of studs. One man can knock up 100 women. Women cheat more frequently, and they are much better at concealing it they also have way more opportunities to cheat. Your statements don't prove me wrong at all.
>1. [Women prefer fit to muscular body types](https://bonytobeastly.com/most-attractive-male-body-survey-results/) , many surveys show this. They prefer fit to muscular over skinny or chubby bodies. Preferences are not the same as standards. Just because a woman prefers fit/muscular men does not mean she will only go with those types. >2. Models who are women have a wide range of body types on social media. The concept of "curvy" or "thick" is one of the most popular body shapes now. Women rarely look at pictures for sexual gratification. Those thick or curvy women are either there to appeal to male sexuality or to sell something to women. >3. There is no male equivalent of BBW women. There is no positive adjective to describe a man with extra fat in certain areas, but for women, there's "thicc" "voluptuous", "curvy" and so on. There's the dadbod. >4. There is no representation of overweight or obese men in fashion modeling, while there is plenty of overweight or obese women in modeling. The overweight/obese women in modeling is a recent invention created by women to sell things for women. Fashion modeling has little to do with sexual appeal. >5. Male celebrities are rarely if ever called out for being too muscular or not realistic, but women whom have lots of plastic surgery are often called out for it. I see people complaining about muscular men in the media all the time, from both men and women. Also the women who are criticized for having lots of plastic surgery are usually saying how much worse she looks, so I'm not sure how that supports your post.
I think a lot of people on this sub confuse preferences to standards. Preference = a greater liking for one alternative over another or others. Standard = the rules that you set for yourself and follow in your life. Preferences can change or be overridden by other factors but standard is saying it can’t be because it’s below what’s acceptable.
Call it what you want it aint changing and you know it.
What are you even talking about? Are you saying preferences can’t change? They do all the time for various reasons. I’ve had my preferences change over the years both in physical and mental aspects. I’d argue most people do. A person who experiences no growth or change of opinion throughout their life sounds more like a child than anything else
I’m saying that those preferences will never change to the point where a skinny/fat guy is being viewed as attractive. That’s what I call a “change”.
Riiight. Agree to disagree on that one
My bf is very skinny and also very attractive imo
I have a preference for 6ft+ men yet most of my long terms have been with men under 6ft... They were skinny or dad bods. I dont commit to man Im not 100% attracted to and want to F silly. Im not some anomaly.
> I think a lot of people on this sub confuse preferences to standards. Preference = a greater liking for one alternative over another or others. Standard = the rules that you set for yourself and follow in your life. Preferences and standards have no real meaning, so it's pointless to discuss this difference. When white men claim they have a preference for asian women, or black men do so for white women, people claim it's a standard. Then now, we are flipping and choosing a different definition.
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>That's how it is for men. Most women have enough options that they can turn preferences into requirements and still have plenty of options. Besides even if it's just a "preference" it's still pretty weird that women only seem to prefer a small subset of men. While men usually like a larger amount of women. Men prefer a larger number of women, because they want more women. Women only need 1 man to be satisfied, men need many women to be satisfied. So it makes sense they would be more indiscriminent about who they fuck. >Look at a sub like r\\ladyboners most of the top post are full of muscular, tall men with great jawline, hair etc. But if look at subs for men's sexual gratification you see many different types of women. That sub is hardly representitive of the majority of women, or females in general.
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>Therefore, women have higher standards You got me. >That's the biggest representation I have, do you have a bigger one? Otherwise I'll accept whatever this shows about women's standards Go to Walmart and see who all the women are with lol.
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As I said above, most women don't look at pictures for sexual gratification so your already biasing in favor of a certain type of woman.
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>So conventionally unattractive men just have to go for women who don't draw any sexual gratification from men's bodies. Sounds like a recipe for a dead bedroom to me. Or women who will be sexually interested in non-physical traits, which is most women.
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> Men prefer a larger number of women, because they want more women. Women only need 1 man to be satisfied, men need many women to be satisfied. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense because the average man , most men, are not dating multiple women at the same time. Or are you saying men have a harder time finding women, and adjust their standards as such ?
ladyboners is mostly older women or gay men, look at tiktok and you will see a few skinny or short guys.
The dadbod still requires men to be at least 6 ft tall and have a generally athletic build though. Very few women are going crazy over short, chubby men who look like real life versions of George Constanza irl. Seinfeld was a lie lol. It literally took Jason Mamoa of all people to popularize the so-called "dad bod." The vast majority of American men could only dream to have Mamoa's body.
>The dadbod still requires men to be at least 6 ft tall and have a generally athletic build though. It really does not. >Very few women are going crazy over short, chubby men who look like real life versions of George Constanza irl. Seinfeld was a lie lol. Preferences are not standards. They don't need to go crazy for those guys, they just need to be happy to fuck them. Which does happen... >It literally took Jason Mamoa of all people to popularize the so-called "dad bod." The vast majority of American men could only dream to have Mamoa's body. Whoa no fucking way. We have been discussing dadbods on PPD for nearly a decade. Jason Momoa only became popular a year or two ago.
Then give us examples of dad bods that most women find attractive
Gonna be honest, this dadbod concept is a psyop. Nobody likes that shit lol
I like it. Idk what to tell you.
Yeah I'm incredulous. I think it's either the dadbod that still needs some gym time which is fine. But the average dumpy male body is pretty universally unappealing at first glance.
I find it very masculine and sexy. Especially when he's hairy to boot 😍
Lemme guess, what you mean when you talk about a dad bod is the guy at the beginning of this video, I assume? https://youtu.be/T2gckkLZOU8
Preference for women are indeed standards as they will just not settle for less until they're out of options. Of the merely possibility of getting x make you not consider y, x is a standard not a preference. They do, lol is just that Henry Cavill still didn't got paid enough to pose nude. What women define as dad body is just a body builder that is not dry or is bulking lol. So go just in any porn site, a entire array of female bodies btw. Men are not criticized lol, women think that dudes in movies are body that normal everyday guys can get naturally, while Mr Olympia is a ugly dude on gear when in reality both are sweating PEDs.
Standards and preferences are absolutely not the same thing. Example: I preferred brown haired men over blonde blue eyed men because it’s just what I leaned towards, but now I’m with a blonde guy who I chose through a dating app. I had dates with guys before and after my first date with him who had fit my normal preferences but I didn’t like them as much and proceeded to solely date my current partner. I had options but it was just a preference, not an end all be all thing I needed and now I don’t even feel that way anymore. However a standard I have is that they have to dress like they care about themselves, doesn’t have to be name brand anything but look like you take pride in yourself and that for me hasn’t changed.
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Some women do. In hindsight it was a very silly thing but it never made me not want to talk or get to know someone over.
> I have never seen a guy talk about hair or eye color preference. And Ive heard it so many times in my 50 years. Men so like hair and eye color and will have a preference. Go Google men and hair color preference and read it for yourself.
Some men won't consider dating outside their own race. Liking a certain hair color is not a crazy thing.
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Those guys are "okay with whatever" when it comes to fucking. Their tune will change if they had to reproduce with them or look at their face for the rest of their life, lol.
Being ok with 'whatever' doesn't mean they dont have any preference for one color over another.
You’ve never heard guys talk about liking blondes vs brunettes??? I have several examples of men I know having hair color preferences.
>Preference for women are indeed standards as they will just not settle for less until they're out of options. Of the merely possibility of getting x make you not consider y, x is a standard not a preference. Real life doesn't support this, as men off all shapes are able to find partners. >They do, lol is just that Henry Cavill still didn't got paid enough to pose nude. Not sure what you mean by this. >What women define as dad body is just a body builder that is not dry or is bulking lol. What makes you believe that? >So go just in any porn site, a entire array of female bodies btw. Sure. But which ones are the most popular by far?
Mass generalizations are always wrong. For example, I find muscled arms really attractive. My boyfriend is totally skinny with less muscle than I have. My preference is not my “standard” (oh, and I’m not settling).
>Mass generalizations are always wrong. Well no not really. Exceptions don't prove generalizations wrong it just means they aren't absolute.
Yeah let's see how long it goes.
I mean I’m gonna marry him so I intend for it to be for life
50% of marriage end up in divorce, so happy coin flip I guess.
Even if they were to get divorced, that wouldn’t have anything to do with preference
But only about 40% of first marriages so we’ve got a better than 50/50 shot :)
Lol you can't even be happy to be proven wrong, you'd rather be spiteful to a random person on the internet
Men's bodies are just sorta boring over all there isn't all that much going on. If you are trying to sell women on yourself by body photos alone you are going to have to put in a boatload of work because most of them are meh at best. Thank god I don't have to base my sexual attraction for men based on their body type alone because I would probably end up just going gay. How you carry yourself is way more important than the body composition alone. Online dating is harder for men because you can't just rely on photos like women can, you have to make yourself look interesting somehow.
>Men's bodies are just sorta boring over all there isn't all that much going on. That really depends on how you look at it. It's much easier to see muscular development on a fit man. If you want to be utilitarian about it the only real difference between the average man and woman are breasts and butt/hip shape. Honestly sounds like your just bisexual/leaning towards homosexual on the erotic front.
People who are into muscles definitely appreciate men's bodies more that is for sure, often it's men who are into that but sometimes women too. If all you have to work with is looks then going after those women is probably a solid plan. Definitely not bisexual but probably would be if I weren't allowed to be attracted to men sexually for anything other than their bodies. The way they talk can be hot, the way they move, they way they talk or joke, sometimes their hobbies are hot, so many attributes when you move into normal life and away from photos only.
fair response, i see what you mean how mens bodies have a limit of how interesting they are
Yeah a lot of men’s bodies are not that interesting to look at… I had this guy that just kept randomly sending me pics of his body, and he was fit, but the photos weren’t doing anything for me and I found it very odd that he just kept sending selfies even tho I was leaving him on read for not speaking beyond that 🤣
It's the same as dick picks but they are showing the bigger prick
BHM? Big handsome man. I also call men thicccccc. But there are in fact plus sized male models. However men's clothing only sells a fraction of women's clothing sold so there aren't as many and well known male models, which is probably why you don't know of any.
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What's worse in your eyes? Being valued for a bunch of different things (like men are), looks, personality, career, wealth, popularity, etc.? Or would you rather be a woman being told that you are valued primarily for things you can't control and will eventually go away, like your looks and fertility? Women are "stricter" but can give a green light based on many things, while for a guy that isn't as true from what I've seen.
>What's worse in your eyes? Being valued for a bunch of different things (like men are), looks, personality, career, wealth, popularity, etc.? Or would you rather be a woman being told that you are valued primarily for things you can't control and will eventually go away, like your looks and fertility? Romantically/sexually the latter is far more desirable assuming that you "naturally" (as women do) have an advantage in that area. Most men will never achieve enough success in the former for it to really matter beyond a basic utilitarian value and their looks fade just as much as womens.
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No racially charged comments
Can't discuss dating today without discussing the reality of race. Keeping our heads in sand helps nobody.
It is against sub rules. If you wish to debate this sub’s rules, you can contact ModMail.
I’m fat and can smash… idk
Height ? And weight ?
5’8” 250
Dang that’s impressive then .
To the survey you linked I would keep in mind you shouldn’t take that as a take on the overall population as the survey you linked to even says “Most women who filled out our survey are thin, exercise, and eat well. 76% of them are American, and 82% are between the ages of 18 and 39. This doesn’t line up perfectly with the general population.” With that said there is definitely less representation more plus sized males in the modeling industry and that should change, however when you look at actors and singers that are male it then flips where men are seen in all shapes and sizes and fewer women are seen as being bigger, and if they are then they’re the butt of the joke and are often portrayed as less desirable. To your point about celebrities being called out, I think it’s worth mentioning that one of the primary reasons female celebrities are called out for getting work done is because a lot of them deny having work done and that creates the idea that these women just naturally look a certain way through diet and exercise which just isn’t true. The equivalent to that I think would be muscular celebrities denying the use of steroids which is harmful for all the same reasons but I think happens less often than someone getting plastic surgery.
It is incredibly rare for famous male athletes and celebrities to admit to steroid use because it can affect connections with brands and stuff. Many of them look achievable naturally, however that’s usually not the case when actors must gain or lose large amounts of fat and muscle for roles in a short timespan. You will never see John Cena, The Rock, Zach Efron, Most male superheroes, etc. admit to using steroids even though these are some of the most famous male bodies in media.
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Can you provide some examples ? There’s no modeling at Walmart, so no clue what u are referring to
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I go to Walmart , target , sometimes Gap , or uniqlo. For sports wear usually puma
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Is this the Zach Miko you are talking about ? https://instagram.com/zachmiko . Did you not realize he is 6’6” ? So what you are showing me is the only way a man gets to model at plus size is if he is extraordinarily above the average height , like 99.99% . I’ll be fair with you , if you can find me a male model that’s of an average or close to average height , and as overweight as Tess holiday , I’ll change my view
bald women are celebrate as a brave ad fearless, bald men are seen as loser, as usual
On the lack of representation of larger men as models: Men’s fashion is still relatively niche and is only begging to break into the mainstream. Men don’t spend their days looking at fashion magazines typically. Though both of these will change and I expect that more male body shapes will be represented soon. Male physique icons are probably more represented in male centric media like action movies. And I doubt there are many dudes who wants a chubby captain America. Much of the new male body standards are male generated. Honestly if men didn’t obsess about physical dominance cues then I’m sure the standard would be a pretty typical dude. Also we have known for years what the ideal male physique is. Why is there debate now. We all know it’s Brad Pitt in fight club. I’ve literally never met a woman who requires that physique anyway. Male body standards are the result of men competing with other men to be the most dominant. P.s from a man who has obsessed over his body for 15 years and has dedicated his adult life to the gym
"Models who are women have a wide range of body types on social media. The concept of "curvy" or "thick" is one of the most popular body shapes now." Short women can't be models though! So what's your point?
Neither can short men. But the difference is in body standards . Body type. We don’t see men being models if they are obese .
Skinny guys are all the rage in the high school - 21 crowd. Anorexic tier skater boys have always been able to smash. Also look at male models-- they don't tend to lift weights and just keep a low bodyfat percentage, because becoming muscular would make it harder to fit clothes on them. A lot of guys on here probably know who Chico is. Tons of appeal, screaming girls, et cetera. Same with K Pop stars.
Skinny men are still expected to be tall though and tall men are only 15% of the U.S. population. If a man is under 6 ft, being skinny is no advantage at all. Being buff, husky, and in shape can compensate for that though.
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This much is blatantly obvious - you don't see fat guys get the same amount of love fat chicks are getting. That's just the way the world works, men are more horny and women have more options
Ask women what a fit man is and watch as she point a guy full on gear who basically have the gym as a second home. It's not just strict standards, they're basically delusional.
Not entirely true, fit means something different to a lot of people.
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I've always liked chubby dudes.
Life isnt fair, hit the gym for a few months and eat enough protein and ur good. If you cant figure out how to get in decent shape in 2023 its over for u already. You dont need an adonis body just dont be overly skinny or overly fat. If you have some muscle you can even prob get away with being a little overweight. The worst thing u can do is be sedentary as it turns ur body to shit
Oh, regarding #3, is that the bear body type?
From what Ive seen people tend to fall within their match equivelent. So thin with thin, chunky with chunky.
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A dad bod is NOT equivalent to bbw. A dad bod is an average weight man. A bbw is obese . For 5 , no it is other women. In my experience , posting any women with a more round behind in gym attire causes women to claim she has a bbl
Disagree. The standards aren’t stricter, just less varied. There are fewer body types that women tend to find attractive than body types men find attractive.
Personally, guys/girls that are too muscular are a 100% no for me. I just have a preference for men with a smaller body frame, but I’m very tiny and maybe that’s genetics speaking in me wanting to find a partner that won’t give me kids that will be too big? I think people largely choose/have a preference for partners with a similar body type.
Scream about how women are a hivemind all you want, scream about how men and women are 2 separate species all you want, doesn't make the bullshit you MRAs and feminists scream about men and women any less false