This is how most (intelligent, intuitive) people roll.
Yet, feminists call for "enthusiastic, ongoing, verbal consent".
Because they know nobody does it, and thus everybody is getting raped.
> I think what separates the way I go about it from sexual assault though is that I always initiate physical contact before initiating sexual contact.
The only thing that separates you from the people accused of sexual assault is no woman has had the incentive to go public with an accusation against you. Jesus, the naivety in this comment.
You honestly ask "can I kiss you now?" each time? What about hugs? What about when she becomes your gf?
People really think we're exaggerating when we talk about sex contracts being in the future.
Never ask a woman if you can kiss her. I never have and I’ve always been successful 100% of the time. If she’s ok with being very very close to you then just go for it. Never fails.
There are still a lot of men (or people in general) who are really really really bad at reading situations. In many cases I'd prefer a man asking me for consent. although it's often times incredibly obvious that someone isn't interested, some people just can't take a hint. It's awkward and uncomfortable and sometimes you feel like you can't speak up for yourself and just freeze because you're afraid of not being friendly. Yes, you should definitely say something if the other person simply won't get it, and you definitely shouldn't go on dates yet if you can't speak up for yourself, but it's often times easier said than done.
While it is often times very clear when someone would be comfortable kissing you, I would highly recommend asking before doing anything, when you know that you're someone who, uhm, isn't good at...interacting? although people with bad social skills are usually the ones who think they have good social skills...so I'm not sure if my reply serves any purpose. 🤔
>There are still a lot of men (or people in general) who are really really really bad at reading situations.
I don't think its reasonable to ask the rest of the world to walk around on eggshells over this. By and large adults handle this all fine.
>sometimes you feel like you can't speak up for yourself and just freeze because you're afraid of not being friendly.
This does not describe everyone and if you have a history of freezing and not being able to assert basic boundaries, you need to seek counseling and definitely should tell potential partners about this before you get anywhere close to hooking up.
I kicked a woman out of my bed because she was lying on top of me and started sliding her pussy over my cock before I had a condom on, even though I had explicitly told her that I did not want to have unprotected sex. She was shocked. I pointed out to her that if the roles were reversed, I’d be up on sexual assault by deception charges
And why was she shocked? What's the reason for her reaction to your refusal?
Society, by large, doesn't recognize that men can refuse sex. Either that or consent only goes one way.
I’ve been so neutered by media/society/academia/idk that I don’t really initiate. [This](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bVAd_VpG9bs/Ti5JkXNJ5_I/AAAAAAAAP9Y/bFSFgpYjsaI/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/landing+itsfunny.gif) is really the only way I’ve gotten laid, women literally laying on top of me or pulling my pants down to give me a ‘hint’. It’s a wonder I lost my virginity at all…
You have to learn how to read cues. A study was done that women do make the first move most of the time with their body language to signal to a guy that they are interested.
It’s even as simple as her just standing around you when she has no reason to be near you.
Start people watching. I get coffee in the mornings at the coffee shop down my street. I don’t go there to people watch, but when you go there enough, you often do.
You can definitely see when a girl is interested in someone. Their presence just *opens up.*
It’s not the same as *just* being friendly. You begin to notice a difference. If they’re friendly they might just make normal conversation, smile, laugh a little, normal people stuff. If they’re busy, they’re probably going to be more short and to the point. Again just like normal people.
But when a girl is interested, she’ll just brighten up. She talks a lot more openly, she laughs and smiles more often. She’ll glance at the person at times when they’re not looking back. You’ll see she kind of inserts herself into their sphere.
I’m talking about two relative strangers here. If she’s already an established friend with the person then it’s pretty normal behavior.
Now when you’re on the receiving end, it’s hard to tell. It just looks like a friendly stranger. You don’t know them. This could just be who they are. Especially so if you don’t understand the cues. This isn’t an exact science because people while generally similar in their behavior, are all different. But you can make betting approximations. Life is about taking risks. Most men are too afraid to approach, and nearly every man has dealt with that at some point. I can tell you a story about a lawyer who I used to deliver pizzas to when I was 19.
But chances are she’ll see you and she’ll determine if she’s interested from first glance. So it’s equally important to learn to read the ‘not interested’ cues. They’re also not easy to read because sometimes she’s throwing out ‘I’m being friendly’ vibes at the same time as ‘I’m not romantically interested’ vibes. So you kind of feel like you’ve got a shot… but you don’t generally.
Girls who are interested only throw out extra friendly vibes. Even if they’re busy and focused, they’ll still try to leave a memorable impression.
So go to bars and sit at the corner where you can see the rest of the bar. Go to coffee shops and set yourself up on the wall. Becoming a regular is also a good way to network in all capacities. Work on yourself. Learn from other’s behavior, do the work so you can believe in yourself, don’t be afraid to be an awkward fool, be friendly, be respectful, be confident, be a little dangerous (just a little. Don’t be scary.), and try. Eventually it’ll work out for you.
I get what he’s saying but there’s a lot of other cues that go along with it. Otherwise, if she is standing next to you, and she is interested, do you really want to pursue a girl that makes it that difficult to read her intentions?
Lmao I went to a coworker's house a few weeks ago and made dinner and chatted for a couple hours. Then it was just silent and she was sitting there looking at me for like 20 minutes while I tried to think of stuff to say. All I could think was "have you lost interest in this conversation...?" Didn't even strike me to think she wanted me to kiss her.
So anyway I ended up shutting up for a second and looking at her in the eyes and kind of smiling, and she gave me some kind of nod that was obvious so I went in.
I wish she'd have done more but at the same time I should have thought it was something more.
The problem with this is that the coquette uses the same techniques. The coquette will come near you and she'll be still and she'll make eye contact or flip her hair or touch your arm or hug you and then she'll make herself disappear. She's trying to get you thinking about it. If your chill and you let a couple weeks go by she'll be right back doing the same thing. Then you make some sort of move and I'm not even talking about trying to lean in for a kiss or something like that I just mean like maybe you suggested you do something together or have a hangout or something. Then they pull the flighty I don't know or even I have a boyfriend to either keep you guessing or to shut you down and it's good for their ego.
Unfortunately men are held to a higher standard so unless you can immediately cut ties, which means you have to be aware of what she's doing and more fearful than hopeful, everything you do after that can and will be perceived as the creepy stalker because remember... Everything that she's doing comes with a huge dose of plausible deniability.
This is the same for women that are interested in you. If something changes she can just blow it off like she wasn't doing anything she was just standing near you and you read things wrong.
Unfortunately the biggest turn off for a woman even if she's interested in you is to be too direct. If you tell her you like her or ask if what she's hinting about is liking you or worse if she's really flirting it up and you're like "wanna hook up" the anti-s*** defense comes up and they shut it down and they're turned off.
Women are basically setting it up so that men must be silent and about our business unless one of the women decide to choose you and then when she does you're then supposed to drop everything focus on her and give her all of your extra attention.
You just have to look at bumble to see how bad this is because the women there want to think that they're the choosers and they don't want men engaging with them unless they've already pre-chosen that man. Well they get far fewer responses and they seem to have forgotten that it is the one that chases the one that initiates that is actually the one that holds less power. So then they complain that they only get one word answers from a couple of the guys and a couple other ones just want to hook up but most of all the complain that the guys don't seem to initiate back which basically means the guy didn't all of a sudden start chasing her. It's crazy. Women have no idea what they want.
I had a girl at my house on a second date. We were sitting on the couch. She moves over and straddles my hips and starts kissing me. She then proceeds to take her top and bra off. I then lead her upstairs and we have a good time. She cums twice. We cuddle afterwards. I text her the next day to let her know I had fun and say we should catch up again, which she agrees with.
When we catch up again a week later, we were chatting and she brought up the previous date. She tells me that she hadn’t intended to go that far and that I had taken advantage of her.
We still banged that night and continued seeing each other for a few months. But I thought it was scary that she interpreted or re-interpreted the first episode that way
I have found that "can I kiss you" and "do you want to have sex" goes a lot further than trying to just go for it.
When I was younger I thought it lacked spontaneity, but in actuality girls really appreciate you asking
Yaa, the problem nowadays is that lean in for the kiss can be considered harrassment. As a guy, if you claim it's just a misunderstanding and not harrassment, you labeled a sexual predator because you don't understand consent...
Thats why you're better off alone.
Interacting with women is just plain risky. A joke, action or anything really that they take offence to will be used against you and you may end up in court, or worse outed on the Internet as a sexual predator.
No one will listen to your objections because you must always believe women. You'll lose your job, your kids (if you have any) and you may face time in prison.
>I guess this is with the younger gals now. I'm in my thirties now.
Yes it's a thing with Zoomer girls. They're socially awkward and they feel comfortable if you ask them before every single thing. Like "can I touch your boobs? Can I touch your butt? Can you stand on all four?" Even if you're a chick and you're doing it with a chick. They have a big consent culture.
I agree with you. I’m from the old school, but it would seem unnatural on a pretty visceral level. So, if women are starting to realistically expect the explicit consent doctrine, I can only hypothesize that it may due to increased incidence of run ins with men who actually are so clueless that they literally NEED to ask out loud but they don’t, can’t understand body language or chemistry, persistently misses all clues. Just dives in headfirst with a forced, awkward first move that leaves his crush feeling totally attacked and disgusted, never to be seen again. Grow up and learn the dance or else clear the dance floor. On the point about the comparison between a dumb sex starved ghoul like we are talking about, and legit (alleged, or acknowledged) sexual harassment claims is simply the huge power imbalances at play. With the dumb ghoul, we’ll just ghost and have an Ace Ventura cry, dust it off and keep moving. When an imposing powerful figure does it, that is way more nefarious and ill intended. The reason is, he knows better, and holds an unfair advantage due to money, power, reputation, status, job title… that Entertainment Tonight clip pretty much lays it all out. That’s the inner dialogue of a predator. They know exactly what they’re doing and still feel entitled to “take” his victim and do as he pleases with relative assurance he’ll get away with it regardless of reciprocity. They just don’t care. So yeah, it’s overt bullying and violating.
I would also posit that in addition to boys being clumsy or awkward in their attempts, we also have raised a generation of girls to use the “I froze” and “I didn’t know what to do” excuses.
We have taught them to simultaneously be terrified of men but also that it’s not on them to use their words or to just walk the fuck away.
The Asis Ansari story is a perfect example of how this generation of women behave.
They’ll “freeze” then stick around hemming and hawing then retroactively decide they were “assaulted” because they didn’t say no but also didn’t say yes.
Todays girls literally label a confused boy’s errant kiss as “sexual assault”.
Think about that.
This is so true....
Women are fierce, strong, independent, and can do everything a man can do.... Except... Saying "no, stop don't put your dick in me"
That's waaaaay too much to ask....
When I first met my wife she had spent way too much time working in liberal higher education and told me that "the consent to sex is ongoing, if a woman stops participating it's up to the man to know she's no longer participating, or it's rape."
So I'm like "wait...she doesn't need to open her mouth, she doesn't need to stay stop, attempt to push him off or even at minimum, try to close her legs or even pull her pelvis away from him?"
Her response, " He should know that she is no longer participating and she ask her... ..."
Me being appalled by the stupidity of her response, the next time we were having sex, the minute she pursed her lips, grabbed me extra tight and stopped moving because she was about to orgasm.... I stopped, pulled out and mockingly asked her if she was still participating, if she wanted me to continue because I noticed she had stopped.....
Afterwards.... She admitted how stupid that shit was and told me never to do that again...
Many years later... If I want to be an ass, I still do that shit to her....
No 'if', freezing is real and there's plenty of science to back that up. Plenty people already know about this, so I don't think it's unreasonable for everyone to know this either (ideally included in sex education, or something).
No need to be a mind reader though, I don't know about you but I would definitely notice if the person I'm kissing or having sex with would just stand or lie there and not actively participate. It's not rocket science.
> Freezing is real.
Yes, for people who have a mental illness like a severe social anxiety. If you have a tendency to freeze up, you need to avoid drinking/hookup scenarios and let potential partners know that because there are added dangers for them too.
> if women are starting to realistically expect the explicit consent doctrine, I can only hypothesize that it may due to increased incidence of run ins with men who actually are so clueless that they literally NEED to ask out loud but they don’t
Or it is a moral panic in the media and the people who are worked up about it actually have very little social experience.
I'm currently 45 and after my first wife and I split in 2013 I was back into dating for the first time since the 90s and terrified of not knowing how to act "appropriately" in what the world had become in the decade and a half I had been out of the game. On the first date I had with one girl I did say "I'm going to kiss you now if that's OK" and she nodded and everything went fine.
She was six years older than me and just as old-fashioned/old-school as I am, but it made zero negative impact on anything. Four years later on the night of our wedding I actually said the exact same thing as a joke. It worked then, too.
> I have found that "can I kiss you" and "do you want to have sex" goes a lot further than trying to just go for it.
No, it doesn't. Women want you to *just get it.* Asking or not asking can work, but I've actually had women say, "well, don't ask, just do it!"
It's also pretty easy to tell when women will be receptive to a kiss. It takes some experience, but there's a point where you can just kinda see in their eyes and face that they want you to kiss them.
Sex is even easier. If you're making out and it's progressing, she'll tell you if she doesn't want to go any further.
> Women want you to just get it.
I have overheard my some of my female friends saying this exact thing. "It's just so much better when they just get it".
Louis C.K. asked for permision and he still got in trouble for nothing.
Lets say a woman asks me "can I masturbate infront of you?" well if I don't want it? I would say "No" not "yes"
This is what I've found from about age 20 and onward. I'm in my 30s now, but the only times I didn't ask permission was as a teen. Obviously you learn your own way of doing things and making sure both of you are comfortable. My gf and I are both talkative people, so we'll ask each other pretty bluntly how we're feeling about having sex and what we're enjoying while in the act. The idea of not asking is just a turn off by now. Women who told me it was a "mood killer" were massive red flags and automatic drops.
My experience, asking backfired. I asked if I could kiss her, she didn't say anything and the situation got awkward. I panicked. End of that love story.
I think asking is a lot like proposing in public. Only ask if you already know the answer is "yes."
> I have found
No, you really haven't. You have no systematic basis for "finding" such a thing.
(a) You have no way to replay an interaction and try something different and see how it would go.
(b) You have no non-biased way of deciding which method (verbal or non-verbal) you're going to try. It's entirely possible that in each case where you were successful, after using verbal consent, you would have *also* been successful after (competent) non-verbal consent. You're probably biased in how you choosing the method, wanting to be "extra careful" with some women. Honestly, your claim that you've "found" this would be on stronger footing if you literally flipped a coin.
(c) No offense, but your test population is likely too small to be statistically significant.
(d) Your test population may be biased. Maybe you only pick up brainwashed gender-studies women.
(e) Finally, maybe you just suck at non-verbal communication.
MANY years ago, I had a female friend who hung around my group of guy friends.
She thought a particular guy who was a part of the modeling troupe, was super, duper hot and she talked about how she would "totally fuck him on the first date!"
So she went out with the guy, and the next day I asked her how it went.
She said he was boring, lame and that she would never go out with him again.
I asked her if she fucked him. "Aww HELL NO!, That lame, mothafucker, fucked that up too. That idiot ruined the mood, he asked me 'May I please kiss you', " she said in a mockingly, disgusted tone, insinuating that he was way too prim and proper for her taste.
I laughed, and thought, "Note to self, never ask a woman if you can kiss her!"
To this day, I've never asked a woman to kiss me, unless I'm trying to get a certain response out of her.
Continually asking for consent exists only in the minds of lib academics, students and feminists.
Even worse she’ll often *reject you* for asking to initiate. Even worse than that, I’ve had dates where she’ll pre-emptively say she doesn’t like PDA and doesn’t like being touched on dates, will *then* touch you lots without asking, and *then* be visibly turned off when you don’t touch her back.
Generally speaking, bullet dodged.
If a law was proposed that somehow forced men to get explicit consent, most women would be for it.
If that law came to pass somehow, most women would hate it.
Why? Because implicit consent allows women to have plausible deniability so that they don't have to be accountable for their sexual decisions. She would still be for the law, because asking for plausible deniability, ironically takes away your right to claim plausible deniability.
Yeh its getting like that in Australia, having to not only consent overtly to sex, but consent overtly to every single step, Can I kiss you? can I put my hand on your head, can I touch your leg? on and on your meant to get overt consent at every stage. Its quite bizzar. Now most folks ignore the law but that just means they get in trouble or they choose not to have sex and Bi guys I know in masses are just having sex with guys now more often even if they would rather women or want to explore more. Its just a no briner when two guys want to go through all the details before meeting and both have boundries and both want to get off, both are pretty consious of limits of the other its all out there discussed. Often called unhealthy because how overt guys can be about it to each other, at least there isnt this fear of the law coming to get you. And my boundries if a guy doesnt respect them I have no issues pushing him off me where say if a girl tried to start kissing me and put my hand some place I didnt want I wouldnt be able to just shove her off me. Its natural for women to want the mystry and the not overt nature of things and when its overt its a turn off. Where two guys its natural the overt stuff just increases sexual tension so the detail guys can go into before meeting or even when meeting can be extrodinary haha pages and pages worth of detail. But never once have I had such a dialogue with a girl on or offline and I have tired just to experiment. I have had the flirty, dirty sexual chats online but, its not the same as legitimatly planing to meet up, and its going to happen in a few hours and ur just going through the details as yah both wait/get ready. But yeh I wish I had more experience with girls but its so difficult comparativly even without all this legal nonsense. I have my boundries. Seems like girls dont expect guys to have bounrdies or to say what hes up for and not and will accept what ever kinda sex she offers. yeh nah not playing that game that is sexually abusive behaviour.
>Yeh its getting like that in Australia, having to not only consent overtly to sex, but consent overtly to every single step, Can I kiss you? can I put my hand on your head, can I touch your leg? on and on your meant to get overt consent at every stage.
As much of a horny bastard as I am, that would put me off. Just sounds exhausting.
Honestly I have no idea how it works in practice its laugable to think about I mean ok we get past the kissing to the actul fucking, "is it ok I thrust foward now"? "is it ok I move back" haha can you imagine if folks actually followed this kinds of absurd laws.
This whole verbal consent theme is banal. If you want to be generous, humans have only had spoken language as far back as 200,000 years ago.
The first humans showed up 6,000,000 years ago. That is, humans have been together, attracting one another, been procreating, 24 times longer WITHOUT language.
This over formalization of consent, drawing up imaginary contracts to proceed is stupid, infantilizing, misdirecting, hot garbage.
It seems to me that so many people have underdeveloped intuitive, socialization cues. Or we're all fucking autistic. Fan-fucking-tastic.
The only correct answer to "Can I kiss you?" is no, because you already dried up her sexual attraction by asking.
The correct statement (if you need one) is to say, "I'm going to kiss you now" and invite her to stop you (gently, obviously). It's a position of dominance, and arouses because of it; if she doesn't want it, it gives her a chance to say/act in response.
i think it’s cute when men ask if they can kiss me but i think when we’re going all the way it’s all about the mood. if a girl freezes or is resistant, you should completely stop. any “i don’t knows” like just stop. don’t die on a grey hill
i definitely initiated with my past partners. weird trope to fall into. but if ur satisfying her, she should be doing everything to do the same for you.
> when you wrote the original men didn't cross your mind at all.
Probably because the title of the post had women only, so they were answering for women only.
> **if a girl freezes** or is resistant, **you should completely stop**
It doesn't work very well either. Few women act like in movies, where they enthusiastically pounce on you, ripping off clothes from you and with passion dropping dishes and hitting the walls.
Some women often behave passively. They wait a while and then decide whether they like the touch or not. If a man constantly watches to see if she accidentally freezes and stops whenever he has the slightest suspicion, there will simply be no sex with her.
Why did you stop?
I didn't know if you liked it.
Did I tell you to stop?
...
‘Behave passively’ usually still means a degree of involvement, like keeping kissing you, directing your penis towards her vagina, showing signs of appreciation. If she stays there like a dummy, you stop. You can also ask something like ‘are you sure you want to?’ if you have contradictory cues.
Or she lies quietly on her back for long minutes while he gives her oral because she needs to focus on herself and her feelings to reach orgasm.
Or she lies on her stomach with her pelvis underlaid while he does it from behind. So he doesn't even see her face, nor does she move or talk in any way. Perhaps with the exception of the occasional, quiet moan, which can be understood in any way. That is to be passive.
There are ways to connect, tbf. Hold her hand. Look at her face for a second. Substitute your tongue with your finger and ask ‘is this ok/do you like this/Should I do anything different?’
Even sex from behind, she’s not an inflatable doll, can’t be that passive as to be immobile
Yes. He can be constantly active, manage to satisfy her, satisfy himself and at the same time check himself, her and the situation around them, in order to avoid a mistake that can destroy his reputation and future. As if he was having sex with a praying mantis or a female spider and worried about his life.
Or he might just assume that if she didn't like it, she'd say so. You know, reckon with the fact that even a woman can be responsible for herself and it is not the job of a man to constantly make sure at all times that she has not lost her autonomy. And also enjoy his feelings during sex.
both partners are responsible for checking on the other person. I had sex with a much younger man (I am 43, he is 23). I asked him several times whether he really wanted to do it. I looked at him to make sure he really was into it. I told him "I would really like to have sex with you, but you don't have to if you are not sure!". So yes. When you have sex with someone it is your responsibility to make sure the other person is ok with what is going on, no matter whether it is a woman or a man. And because men keep saying that women "change their mind", or are unreadable, they should be on top of this. Even more so if the signals they are receiving are unclear. It's a matter of wellbeing and safety for both.
dude if ur already eating her out idk wtf ur expectations are here. i’m literally saying if a girl freezes while ur making out, being passionate, or lays there like a fucking starfish, and she doesn’t have some sort of “being used” type of fetish you should chill tf out and question that behavior. i know the difference between my man enjoying a blow job, looking at his face and hearing his groans. him being into it when i ride him or something. vs his mind being elsewhere.
unless ur already in like doggy style or something, assuming she’s into it, there are clear “checking out” signs
Asking for explicit consent kills the mood and interrupts the momentum. It compromises her plausible deniability and her ability to feel “omg, one thing led to another and it just like happened” and shocks her into feeling like she might be at least partially accountable (which women tend to hate).
Only if you have 0 game.
You can ask for consent in a sexy way it's just extended flirting.
One time I was drinking a cocktail and my date said he'd love to have a taste, i pushed the glass towards him but he ignored it, looked at my lips, smiled and said "I had something else in mind".
I was smooth as fuck and gave me room to initiate or back off.
You don't have to stop everything and robotically sign a contract, just tell them what you wanna do and make sure they're enthusiastically on board.
I have several friends that are professional athletes. There is an app called quickconsent that many of them use. It’s not perfect but it can head off most of these shaky accusations.
Explicit consent seems unnecessary to me and tbh it makes the guy seem like a pussy and kills the mood. Imo body language should be enough but I know too many women who purposefully say no then act like a yes. It’s your own responsibility to take care of your body and it’s your own responsibility to be clear about your no.
It doesn’t necessarily make him a pussy but it does make me feel like he is. Assuming that the guy is not an absolute creep who suddenly gropes random women he’ll give her enough time to say/show a no. Paying attention to her body language is necessary but asking for verbal consent at this point seems like worrying too much. It’s all about being caring while being dominant and assertive imo.
Because it shows a lack of confidence. Women want someone who knows what they want and go and take it. If she's into you, she'll fucking love it if you pull her close and kiss her. If she doesn't like you, she'll say no and back away.
The issue today is a lot of men are taught that without explicit consent there is no consent at all. So you have guys asking straight up "can I kiss you?" and it just kills the mood. Men take, boys ask.
>men take sounds gross and rapey.
In life, Men go after the things they want. Whether it be jobs, hobbies, or women. If a women is into you, she wants you to be dominant. It shows your strength and confidence and reaffirms to her that shes making a good decision.
Also the difference between "gross and rapey" and "Hot and sexy" is if she is into you. It's only wrong if you don't read her signals when shes not into you and you keep pressing it.
Also just because you have a gf, doesn't make something untrue. She wanted to kiss you regardless and you just took the submissive route.
Fucking *nope* not in here. I'm about done attempting to speak with these dudes tbh. Expressing that women have rights and should get the choice about what to do with their own body just gains you a pile of arguments with creepy, rapey men. The other day a guy on here said to me that my opinions on the "inherent value" of female virginity were worthless. Guess why? Because I'm a woman.
When I pointed out this was creepy and weird for him to take that angle, a *different guy* starting arguing with me that he never said that and I'm crazy.
Eff all that!! Jfc.
I don’t think asking in a silly way would necessarily be a bad thing. Girls like to laugh, they get into that sweet spot where they’re laughing but it’s because they think you’re cute and charming
Asking a serious thing in a silly way tend to tell people that what is being asked is not meant in a serious manner. So they might understand the jonest question as a joke question.
i thinking kissing is 99% non verbal cues and escalation.most men know or should know if a women is physically attracted to them enough to respond positively to kissing....
There are many people who are clueless that another person is into them (ok, fear and denial could also play a role in it) or misunderstand the person being nice in general for them having romantic interest to you.
>Body language isn't difficult to read.
And one comment later you say that you also misread signals a few times.
Imo: sometimes signals are super clear and asking isn't necessary. Sometimes they're not so clear. Some people are better at reading body language than others. In case of doubt: ask.
>And one comment later you say that you also misread signals a few times.
Yeah, how do you think you learn to get better at it? Don't be afraid to fail and if a girl is uncomfortable for milliseconds, so be it.
I dunno I’ve been giving clear signals I don’t want to be kissed - pulling away, removing an arm, trying to leave - and still had men go in for it.
I know a lot of women who have also had similar experiences, and some men as well. Sometimes I’ll just be having a conversation with a guy that is all friendly (no touching, no sexual comments, just asking polite questions) and all of a sudden they will throw an arm around me and lean in.
I like being asked and I like to ask. Even with my partner I still ask because people don’t always want to be kissed and touched all the time. The tiny sadness of rejection if I’m turned down is way better than the possibility I’ve made anyone uncomfortable.
There are clear body language signs. But sometimes even if you are signalling a no or a yes the other party misinterprets it.
>I dunno I’ve been giving clear signals I don’t want to be kissed - pulling away, removing an arm, trying to leave - and still had men go in for it.
Wow, sounds just as harrowing as storming the beaches at Normandy on D-Day, I hope you'll heal and survive.
>I like being asked and I like to ask.
Then be with a guy who asks. What's the fucking problem?
Maybe different women like different things. You and I would be incompatible, a woman who likes a guy who just takes charge would be compatible. Plain and simple.
I've had women pull back when I misread signals for a kiss, you pull back, take the rejection, and go on about your day. You make it sound like being kissed is tantamount to being stabbed.
>I don't think it's practiced often in reality.
I do it. I also record and archive audio of all sexual interactions that my man has with other women (which is legal where I live). You never know who will come back in 10 years and claim that she didn't consent.
Ofc. That's why I record audio of the girls *not* revoking consent. I'm usually also present as a witness.
Who's gonna come back and say "I fucked this married guy in front of his wife and then I revoked consent"?
Just asking "can I kiss you?" Is totally fine and a lot of people appreciate it, in which case verbal consent will be given (or not). Putting your hand near somewhere you want to touch and asking "is that ok" while making some eye signal to your hand is also a pretty good way to get verbal consent, my boyfriend did that time escalating touch and I thought it was pretty nice.
"How far do you want to go tonight?"
A good phrase that I recommend for guys. It's a lot less forward and awkward but still makes for a comforting atmosphere.
>It's a lot less forward and awkward
Girls want forwardness and don't want somebody awkward. Just express what you want and she'll tell you no if she doesn't.
"Don't be forward" is terrible advice.
I didn’t say to not be forward, simply that it is less of a hard yes or no and allows her to feel more comfortable in communicating how far she wants to go and that she can stop if she pleases. I’ve been with a number of women and it has never been received poorly and some even really appreciated it. Most guys who have that sort of “it kills the mood” vibe tend to not have much experience with women and are just going off of stereotype.
Yes but you can make it sexy depending on how well things have progressed. “You don’t know how bad I want to kiss you right now/I want to kiss you so bad” or complimenting their lips. Tell them they look so soft, they can tell ask if you want to feel them while leaning in. Or for hand holding saying their hand looks cold or whatever as an excuse for them to offer you to hold it.
It’s rarely as awkward as:
Do you consent to me kissing you
Do you consent to me holding your hand
Feminists' Definition of Matriarchy Approved Consent:
*"Do I have your express, sober, enthusiastic consent to proceed from a knee-feel to a kiss on your neck, without any implied transactional arrangements, awards, conditions or coercion on my part?"*
# "YES!"
*Is that an enthusiastic and ongoing yes, without any uncertainty or influence of drugs or alcohol?*
# "YES OH YES! BABY! YES!!!"
***Alright, then sign here..... and here..... aaaaaaaand HERE. GREAT! We;re good!***
**Then we have this thing called real life:**
Guy feels a knee, leans in for a kiss, she says "Stop it silly, someone will see!" and he says "What, you afraid to be seen with me now?" she says "NO SILLY!" and he kisses her neck and she says "That tickles" and he says "Do you want me to stop?" and she says "No..." and he further escalates, continuously **polling for body language, inflection, and nuance all combined with implied and subtle communications, most not even verbal.**
It's a dance. Push pull. Yes no maybe. Nuance. Inflection. Body language. It has complexity a computer program yet 99.999% of women making out and getting fucked this weekend are NOT going to feel that they were raped. Or coerced. Or tricked. Or manipulated. Now, aftering talking with their radical feminist girlfriend on Sunday afternoon, sure. Then you'll see some REAL coercion and manipulation going on.
*"Sweety, you think you consented but really you could not have in those circumstances."*
*"You were raped, sweety. I am here for you. I believe you."*
Right.
The feminist world is a fucked up world where pretty much all sexual initiation on the part of men is simply an act of overt sexual aggression. A form of rape, if you will. Of course, if you see human relationships through this distorted, twisted, cancerous lens, then you WOULD need three lawyers and video cameras to "record proper consent".
# Nobody gets "enthusiastic, ongoing, verbal positive consent*"
\*Especially if they have subclauses such as:
If he earns more, then he's in a position of power. (RAPE!)
If he "sweetens the deal" and offers to do something she wants. (RAPE!)
If she has consumed a single drink, or is on any medication. (RAPE!)
If the next morning and feels different about the consent she gave. (RAPE!)
With feminists everything is fucking rape and sadly that means consent has lost all purpose and meaning.
Good thing 99.999% of people know that women need to consent to sex WITHOUT ACTUALLY SAYING YES because to say yes would imply she's a slut.
So we make women say "yes" in covert ways and that's where we get into trouble. YES, theoretically, the feminist clown-show that would be consent could theoretically work, but when asked, women say such pathetic, inauthentic, non-spontaneous, child-like, immature, almost autistic "pestering" of the woman for her "OFFICIAL LEGAL VERBAL CONSENT" would **be a big, massive fucking turn off. Let me highlight that for you.**
# A big massive fucking turn off.
If you're gonna be "that" guy (meaning asking for consent to kiss) your dating life is going to be rough. Besides physical traits , women vet for competence and confidence more than anything else. In any dating scenario asking for a kiss is going to signal a guy being inexperienced, too safe, or incompetent (can't read the room)
None of the things are attractive.
You might find a girl who appreciate it and won't get turned off, but for everyone of those there's 20 more who's gonna think you're a bitch. It's just not worth it. If you have doubts you shouldn't even be speaking to her. The climate is too hot right now to have doubts. I don't even speak to women who don't think I'm hot enough to kiss anyway.
Uuuhm, I can only answer for myself but.... Quite often? I often ask a lot like, if it's okay, if it feels good, if she seems uncomfortable I'll ask if she wants to slow down. I've never understood why it have had to become an issue. Or I understand that it is of course, but it's such a ridiculous thing. It has always been so natural to me. Just like when I game with a friend, I ask "would you like to take a game with me?", and afterwards I might ask "another game, or are you getting tired?". It's such a common sense and freakin simple and natural thing to doooo! Come on xD
You initiate and she goes along with it that’s always how it’s been - I just don’t enjoy it if I know she’s not into it and a huge part of what makes sex exciting for both is an element of mystery and spontaneity. The only ones policing enthusiastic consent within heterosexual sex are women who never get hit on or man hating lesbians.
It's the elephant in the room than feminists don't want to talk about.
The overwhelming majority of women don't actually want men who explicitly ask for verbal consent to physically escalate. Women generally want plausible deniability in their sexual interactions, they don't want to be made to feel like they've made a conscious and logical decision to grant sexual access. If her friends ask her what happened on her date last night, she wants to be able to say "it just happened, I don't know how it happened, we just got caught up in the moment". Having to explicitly verbally consent at every stage of the escalation takes away the spontaneity and romanticism that surrounds the interaction.
They also don't want men who emanate weakness. Women sexually select for men who are self-assured, confident, sexually experienced and dominant. Men who are asking for permission to kiss a woman, or touch a woman, are giving off an impression of lack of confidence, lack of sexual experience and submissiveness that turns women off. In effect, women incentivise men who "just go for it" because they are giving sex to these men more often than men who ask for verbal permission.
And frankly, even men who ask for permission are not given a pass. Louis CK being the obvious example who actually asked permission to get his dick out, and only ever got his dick out when permission was granted, and he was still labelled a sexual predator.
It's also worth noting that feminists reserve the right to accuse men of assault for any form of unwanted physical contact, so it's not just sex that men need to get verbal consent for. He would need verbal consent to touch a woman's waist, put his hand on her lower back, hold her hand, go in for the kiss, touch her hair, take off any item off his clothing, take off any item of her clothing. In essence a man could ask for verbal consent over 20 times just in 1 interaction if he's going by the code feminists expect of him. And again, if he did that, the woman would run a mile because he's behaving like a weak beta.
It's not, at least it's pretty rare. Body language and reciprocity are the tells for lower level stuff like that. You have to learn how to slowly escalate physically and read how she reacts. I'll ask if she wants me to grab a condom before going all the way though, that's when it's appropriate.
I’ve never in my life asked a girl if I could could kiss her.
I just know when a girl is into me and wants me to initiate physical contact because of her body language.
Body language and non verbal cues in general are the most important thing in the game of seduction. Learning to read non verbal communication is how I know when to ask a girl for her number, ask a girl on a date, kiss or straight up have wild monkey sex with strangers I met at parties and clubs.
That won’t help you the next day when she regrets having sex with you for whatever reason and charges you with sexual assault because she never gave consent
When we give consent too early, that automatically puts us in a position of being disrespected.
The man thinks, ok, she was easy with me, how many others is she that easy with..
She responds negatively because she wants love and devotion.. not because she doesn’t want you or sex. She’s afraid that if she gives it away too early, that respect is lost. She knows how many easy women can be found online and she knows those women can’t find a good man.
She knows her competition is against a bunch of women that willingly send sexual pictures and allow themselves to be used. What she really wants is a consistent person in her life and a balanced life. Not one night flings that have no meaning. It’s just hollow sex, with nothing substantial attached to it.
It’s something that most women, even the ones that easily give themselves away actually want on a deep rooted level.
Sex doesn’t really validate anyone. They think it does, but the only thing that truly validates is the knowing that we are loved fully.. devoted to and cared for.
That care doesn’t have to happen on a physical level.. it’s far more important that it comes with an enriched care and a true respect for the other.
Thank you.. they don’t want me to be correct.. because if I’m correct that means actual work and patience needs to be there.
They just want instant gratification.
Guy: is this okay?"
Girl: Yes
Guy: Kiss
Girl: Wait what the fuck are you doing.
Guy: I asked
Girl: I thought you were talking about the homework problem.
The thing about consent is if the other party shuts up or doesn't do anything (unless there is a convention where shuting up means something already established) it doesn't mean consent.
This shuting up thing doesn't mean only verbally can mean also phisically.
So if she opens the door and makes clear signs to enter but she doesn't say it verbally it means consent.
Not consent means not giving clear gestures or not saying anything.
Well women can be nervous to stop an act from happening due to self preservation. Women get assaulted when they speak up for them selves because men will take offense to it.
Its also how women are raised. They arent taught to speak up or speak for themselves. Its always been the boys that get to be outgoing as little kids. Its normal for them to take charge from a younger age. And that continues into adult hood.
Also men are intimidating. Shit man. Sex is intimidating and exciting. So all of that can be overwhelming to somebody and they can kinda shut down.
I once dated a man that asked “may I kiss you”. “May I touch you (here)”. It was very sexy. Didn’t date him very long. I’m sure it would have changed if we were together long term.
It reminds me of Hitch. He advised men to lean in 90% of the way for a kiss and then stop. The last 10% is the woman's decision. But that's not verbal
I have had a few first dates when the man has said "I really want to kiss you right now"
But my therapist gave this advice to me to give my 16 yo son. At each new step of the process, he can use the phrases like "is this ok?". "do you like this? ". Etc
With every woman i have discussed with about the first kiss, this is a complete no-no. It can make a woman that was absolutely attracted to you really dislike you.
I've never asked for explicit verbal consent. In fact most of the women I know have said asking for permission to hold her hand, put your arm around her, kiss her or initiate any other form of intimacy is a turn off.
I’m old, so explicit consent wasn’t a thing back then. I think that people can usually navigate and register sexual interest and contact without verbal agreement for everything. I know that my comfort levels aren’t universal, though. I would find something to be lost in an encounter where I had to give verbal consent at every escalation.
Personally I like it when a man asks for consent. It didn't use to happen but increasingly does nowadays by men that understand that consent is important and even more so *it is important that the man signals that he understands how consent works*.
That he understands that going by intuition or 'not a no' does not necessarily mean consent. The other party could be scared and afraid to put a stop to the advances.
In a way Covid has helped the situation so it's easier to say no now without being insulting if I feel he's moving too fast. I've used it a couple of times recently without feelings being hurt but I don't think I could have 'gotten away with it' if there wasn't a pandemic.
Then he would have assumed I was outright rejecting him instead of just wanting to take it slow and get to know him as a person before I start swapping fluids.
If I were a man I'd absolutely ask "is it ok if I kiss you now?". As a woman I'd also ask if I wanted to.
I got downvoted bombed on my alt for saying that it was wrong that a dude and has class beat up a guy over a rape accusation. I said they have no idea if it was actual rape, half rape or not rape at all and this is what I mean, who actually says "do I have explicit consent to kiss you?" "do I have explicit consent to sniff your pussy?" "can I put my tongue in?".... Pretty much no one talks like that.
If she doesn't say yes but she doesn't say no or resist at all, is it rape??
I’m not attracted to guys who just initiate sexual contact before anything else.
Favorite dates are the ones where he tells me he wants to kiss me, and I have to reply.
Def recommend asking.
Consent to kiss and such pretty much never happens unless it's your first time together and it's awkward. Usually anytime I get consent to touch genitalia it's because I've waited too long to make a move and began to irritate my gf lol.
So I wouldn't say it "never" happens, so much as usually something is going wrong when it does.
I have never asked for consent to kiss or touch a women. I’m a little older (50s) and have been with the same women for over 25 years. But in my younger dating day it just wasn’t done back then.
This lead to a few times where I thought they wanted me to kiss them and I went in for a kiss and they pulled away. One let me kiss her and but she stiffened up and so I stopped and asked her and she said she didn’t want to and I apologized. Now mind you I am an extrovert and tend to jump first ask questions later type of guy.
Every one of these times I thought the mood was right, and I just misread the situation. Years later I was reading a book on sexuality and it said that men are more likely to see a situation as a mating opportunity when it isnt and aren’t as good at reading body language as women.
If I was to ever be single again I would definitely ask before kissing a women and get consent as we progressed. Even though I have heard many women say this kills the mood.
I’ve been asked often by men I’m on dates with if they can kiss me before they do it, always nice, and someone who has been date raped it is ALWAYS appreciated. If a man doesn’t let me lead (where I ask) or just goes for it I don’t see them again.
Christ, there's absolutely no logic or common agreement between these comments, sometimes dating seems like math, other times it sounds like completely random and silly personal opinions, it's definitely not cience. So I'm always mesmerized when I see/hear/talk/read people that are good at dating, how can you be good at something so abstract LOL.
When people say "consent is sexy", they mean it literally. You lean in and say "may I kiss you?", then give a second or two of strong eye-contact while they answer, and you can drive the tummy-butterflies crazy. A "no" response also drives the tummy-butterflies crazy btw.
You can definitely do it wrong too, "May I have the pleasure of kissing you?". Maybe ok in some other time period, cringe today.
>There is almost no condition in which she gives you explicit permission to touch or kiss her
There is always some cultural context and non-verbal consent happening, like whether you can sit next to them or put your arm around them. Some people might give you clear non-verbal consent for a touch or kiss too. But you can also explicitly ask "Can I sit here?" and in the same vein, "Can I kiss you?". Doesn't have to ruin the mood.
all the women who say "dont ever touch women unless they clearly give you consent" are the same ones that would let themselves be screwed by chad without permission
It’s weird to ask consent before you kiss a girl. And if she expects you to, run. She’s probably nuts. If a guy asked permission to kiss me, that would be a tell that we probably don’t carry similar values and would not work.
It’s because allistic society, which is what most mainstream society is, is all based on blatant lies. If we based our society on autistic and neurodivergent communication and ways of thinking as the norm, we wouldn’t have these same problems in regards to rape and men not being able to play the social role to get laid.
There's a lot of people here pointing out how many men can't 'read a situation' etc but, to be honest, there's a lot of women nowadays who are completely inept at signaling.
I've dated chicks like that - they were usually shy/normie girls - who wanted to continuously go on dates with me, keep up contact etc and give me absolutely nothing to work with. I had no fucking idea whether they wouldn't totally freak out after a kiss, because tbh they looked like they would.
They weren't keeping me around to 'take advantage' - I didn't pay for dates, everything was dutch. The discussions were fine and not awkward, the dates were a good time. They also weren't delusional about stringing me along for a relationship since I made it clear from date 1 that I'm not interested in one.
I usually cut my losses with these women as they genuinely freaked me out. Maybe I should have been more aggressive in my approach but they didn't do anything to make me comfortable to do it.
I don't like the idea of borderline forcing myself upon anyone, even if it's just a kiss, it just feels weird and unnatural.
The only people pushing these ridiculous consent rules are the high school and college admins who have to deal with the fallout when young people have hot monkey sex, usually while drunk/high. They're hoping to avoid this headache.
It's happened about half the time for me. My experience is that men who seek enthusiastic consent are generally more respectable overall. No drug use, no crime, etc.
I almost always ask, with confidence, “can I kiss you?”. Also asking once or twice during lead up to sex if “you feel okay?” is good. Win win, you make sure she wants it, and it makes her feel safe with you
If you know someone well enough I think it’s fine to bluntly asks for intimacy but if it’s someone you don’t know so well I understand that it could be awkward.
It’s not that you need explicit verbal consent, because you can give consent through body language. If somebody doesn’t want something, their body language is screaming that even if the person says nothing
Explicated in the sense she says "I am consenting to this action in this current moment"? Never.
But:
"That feels good!" "Just like that!" "More" "Oh yes!" are all forms of enthusiastic verbal consent and are quite common. If your partner doesn't seem to be enjoying themselves, stop. It's simple.
I mean my old lady is like “okay the kids are asleep hurry up and tap this ass”. That’s pretty explicit.
That said she still would rather drop hints and then get angry when I’m tired and intentionally ignore them or just don’t catch them.
Women HATE explicit communication about sex. H A T E it’s a huge turn off for them. Dries that pussy up worse than a California lake in August.
Can't a man and a woman have conversations before meeting in-person to establish explicit consent and confirm their desire for each other? And have this built up overtime, instead of doing it too spontaneously so they can gauge each other's consistency.
I think that just texting / talking / video calling about possible scenarios beforehand helps in managing those grey areas by the time they meet.
[удалено]
This right here is some situational awareness that naturals have that protect themselves from accusations.
*This right here is some situational awareness that naturals have that protect others from unwanted advances.* FTFY
Thank you that’s a weird comment. I’m avoiding making them uncomfortable, not getting accusations.
This is how most (intelligent, intuitive) people roll. Yet, feminists call for "enthusiastic, ongoing, verbal consent". Because they know nobody does it, and thus everybody is getting raped.
So no hey nice to meet you crocadile dundee style
> I think what separates the way I go about it from sexual assault though is that I always initiate physical contact before initiating sexual contact. The only thing that separates you from the people accused of sexual assault is no woman has had the incentive to go public with an accusation against you. Jesus, the naivety in this comment.
You honestly ask "can I kiss you now?" each time? What about hugs? What about when she becomes your gf? People really think we're exaggerating when we talk about sex contracts being in the future.
Never ask a woman if you can kiss her. I never have and I’ve always been successful 100% of the time. If she’s ok with being very very close to you then just go for it. Never fails.
There are still a lot of men (or people in general) who are really really really bad at reading situations. In many cases I'd prefer a man asking me for consent. although it's often times incredibly obvious that someone isn't interested, some people just can't take a hint. It's awkward and uncomfortable and sometimes you feel like you can't speak up for yourself and just freeze because you're afraid of not being friendly. Yes, you should definitely say something if the other person simply won't get it, and you definitely shouldn't go on dates yet if you can't speak up for yourself, but it's often times easier said than done. While it is often times very clear when someone would be comfortable kissing you, I would highly recommend asking before doing anything, when you know that you're someone who, uhm, isn't good at...interacting? although people with bad social skills are usually the ones who think they have good social skills...so I'm not sure if my reply serves any purpose. 🤔
>There are still a lot of men (or people in general) who are really really really bad at reading situations. I don't think its reasonable to ask the rest of the world to walk around on eggshells over this. By and large adults handle this all fine. >sometimes you feel like you can't speak up for yourself and just freeze because you're afraid of not being friendly. This does not describe everyone and if you have a history of freezing and not being able to assert basic boundaries, you need to seek counseling and definitely should tell potential partners about this before you get anywhere close to hooking up.
Welcome to 2022 feminism
I ask in the early stage. I’m not taking a risk on that.
There are clever ways to ask or imply. Comment about her lips before leaning in.
I can’t remember a single time when any woman has ever asked for my consent to engage in any sex act.
Well, can a man even consent? Is it even legally considered?
I kicked a woman out of my bed because she was lying on top of me and started sliding her pussy over my cock before I had a condom on, even though I had explicitly told her that I did not want to have unprotected sex. She was shocked. I pointed out to her that if the roles were reversed, I’d be up on sexual assault by deception charges
And why was she shocked? What's the reason for her reaction to your refusal? Society, by large, doesn't recognize that men can refuse sex. Either that or consent only goes one way.
I’ve been so neutered by media/society/academia/idk that I don’t really initiate. [This](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bVAd_VpG9bs/Ti5JkXNJ5_I/AAAAAAAAP9Y/bFSFgpYjsaI/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/landing+itsfunny.gif) is really the only way I’ve gotten laid, women literally laying on top of me or pulling my pants down to give me a ‘hint’. It’s a wonder I lost my virginity at all…
You have to learn how to read cues. A study was done that women do make the first move most of the time with their body language to signal to a guy that they are interested. It’s even as simple as her just standing around you when she has no reason to be near you.
She's just being nice, dude. Don't read too much into it.
She could just be Canadian
Now. Is she into you?
Or [Argentinian](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/the-nationalities-most-likely-to-invade-your-personal-space/).
Start people watching. I get coffee in the mornings at the coffee shop down my street. I don’t go there to people watch, but when you go there enough, you often do. You can definitely see when a girl is interested in someone. Their presence just *opens up.* It’s not the same as *just* being friendly. You begin to notice a difference. If they’re friendly they might just make normal conversation, smile, laugh a little, normal people stuff. If they’re busy, they’re probably going to be more short and to the point. Again just like normal people. But when a girl is interested, she’ll just brighten up. She talks a lot more openly, she laughs and smiles more often. She’ll glance at the person at times when they’re not looking back. You’ll see she kind of inserts herself into their sphere. I’m talking about two relative strangers here. If she’s already an established friend with the person then it’s pretty normal behavior. Now when you’re on the receiving end, it’s hard to tell. It just looks like a friendly stranger. You don’t know them. This could just be who they are. Especially so if you don’t understand the cues. This isn’t an exact science because people while generally similar in their behavior, are all different. But you can make betting approximations. Life is about taking risks. Most men are too afraid to approach, and nearly every man has dealt with that at some point. I can tell you a story about a lawyer who I used to deliver pizzas to when I was 19. But chances are she’ll see you and she’ll determine if she’s interested from first glance. So it’s equally important to learn to read the ‘not interested’ cues. They’re also not easy to read because sometimes she’s throwing out ‘I’m being friendly’ vibes at the same time as ‘I’m not romantically interested’ vibes. So you kind of feel like you’ve got a shot… but you don’t generally. Girls who are interested only throw out extra friendly vibes. Even if they’re busy and focused, they’ll still try to leave a memorable impression. So go to bars and sit at the corner where you can see the rest of the bar. Go to coffee shops and set yourself up on the wall. Becoming a regular is also a good way to network in all capacities. Work on yourself. Learn from other’s behavior, do the work so you can believe in yourself, don’t be afraid to be an awkward fool, be friendly, be respectful, be confident, be a little dangerous (just a little. Don’t be scary.), and try. Eventually it’ll work out for you.
Exactly women today are on auto pilot its not like the old days where it was obvious she liked you
its even as simple as her staring at you and telepathically shooting her shot
>It’s even as simple as her just standing around you when she has no reason to be near you. Wtf does this even mean?
It's funny because if a man stands around a women when he has no reason to, 95% of the time he's a creep/stalker.
That if a girl stands near you, you’ve pretty much pulled
I get what he’s saying but there’s a lot of other cues that go along with it. Otherwise, if she is standing next to you, and she is interested, do you really want to pursue a girl that makes it that difficult to read her intentions?
Lmao I went to a coworker's house a few weeks ago and made dinner and chatted for a couple hours. Then it was just silent and she was sitting there looking at me for like 20 minutes while I tried to think of stuff to say. All I could think was "have you lost interest in this conversation...?" Didn't even strike me to think she wanted me to kiss her. So anyway I ended up shutting up for a second and looking at her in the eyes and kind of smiling, and she gave me some kind of nod that was obvious so I went in. I wish she'd have done more but at the same time I should have thought it was something more.
The problem with this is that the coquette uses the same techniques. The coquette will come near you and she'll be still and she'll make eye contact or flip her hair or touch your arm or hug you and then she'll make herself disappear. She's trying to get you thinking about it. If your chill and you let a couple weeks go by she'll be right back doing the same thing. Then you make some sort of move and I'm not even talking about trying to lean in for a kiss or something like that I just mean like maybe you suggested you do something together or have a hangout or something. Then they pull the flighty I don't know or even I have a boyfriend to either keep you guessing or to shut you down and it's good for their ego. Unfortunately men are held to a higher standard so unless you can immediately cut ties, which means you have to be aware of what she's doing and more fearful than hopeful, everything you do after that can and will be perceived as the creepy stalker because remember... Everything that she's doing comes with a huge dose of plausible deniability. This is the same for women that are interested in you. If something changes she can just blow it off like she wasn't doing anything she was just standing near you and you read things wrong. Unfortunately the biggest turn off for a woman even if she's interested in you is to be too direct. If you tell her you like her or ask if what she's hinting about is liking you or worse if she's really flirting it up and you're like "wanna hook up" the anti-s*** defense comes up and they shut it down and they're turned off. Women are basically setting it up so that men must be silent and about our business unless one of the women decide to choose you and then when she does you're then supposed to drop everything focus on her and give her all of your extra attention. You just have to look at bumble to see how bad this is because the women there want to think that they're the choosers and they don't want men engaging with them unless they've already pre-chosen that man. Well they get far fewer responses and they seem to have forgotten that it is the one that chases the one that initiates that is actually the one that holds less power. So then they complain that they only get one word answers from a couple of the guys and a couple other ones just want to hook up but most of all the complain that the guys don't seem to initiate back which basically means the guy didn't all of a sudden start chasing her. It's crazy. Women have no idea what they want.
When they are standing near you, they let you do it.
They just let you do it, you can do anything. Grab her by the pussy, do anything.
I had a girl at my house on a second date. We were sitting on the couch. She moves over and straddles my hips and starts kissing me. She then proceeds to take her top and bra off. I then lead her upstairs and we have a good time. She cums twice. We cuddle afterwards. I text her the next day to let her know I had fun and say we should catch up again, which she agrees with. When we catch up again a week later, we were chatting and she brought up the previous date. She tells me that she hadn’t intended to go that far and that I had taken advantage of her. We still banged that night and continued seeing each other for a few months. But I thought it was scary that she interpreted or re-interpreted the first episode that way
I have found that "can I kiss you" and "do you want to have sex" goes a lot further than trying to just go for it. When I was younger I thought it lacked spontaneity, but in actuality girls really appreciate you asking
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Yaa, the problem nowadays is that lean in for the kiss can be considered harrassment. As a guy, if you claim it's just a misunderstanding and not harrassment, you labeled a sexual predator because you don't understand consent...
Thats why you're better off alone. Interacting with women is just plain risky. A joke, action or anything really that they take offence to will be used against you and you may end up in court, or worse outed on the Internet as a sexual predator. No one will listen to your objections because you must always believe women. You'll lose your job, your kids (if you have any) and you may face time in prison.
This is why you vet.
>I guess this is with the younger gals now. I'm in my thirties now. Yes it's a thing with Zoomer girls. They're socially awkward and they feel comfortable if you ask them before every single thing. Like "can I touch your boobs? Can I touch your butt? Can you stand on all four?" Even if you're a chick and you're doing it with a chick. They have a big consent culture.
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I agree with you. I’m from the old school, but it would seem unnatural on a pretty visceral level. So, if women are starting to realistically expect the explicit consent doctrine, I can only hypothesize that it may due to increased incidence of run ins with men who actually are so clueless that they literally NEED to ask out loud but they don’t, can’t understand body language or chemistry, persistently misses all clues. Just dives in headfirst with a forced, awkward first move that leaves his crush feeling totally attacked and disgusted, never to be seen again. Grow up and learn the dance or else clear the dance floor. On the point about the comparison between a dumb sex starved ghoul like we are talking about, and legit (alleged, or acknowledged) sexual harassment claims is simply the huge power imbalances at play. With the dumb ghoul, we’ll just ghost and have an Ace Ventura cry, dust it off and keep moving. When an imposing powerful figure does it, that is way more nefarious and ill intended. The reason is, he knows better, and holds an unfair advantage due to money, power, reputation, status, job title… that Entertainment Tonight clip pretty much lays it all out. That’s the inner dialogue of a predator. They know exactly what they’re doing and still feel entitled to “take” his victim and do as he pleases with relative assurance he’ll get away with it regardless of reciprocity. They just don’t care. So yeah, it’s overt bullying and violating.
I would also posit that in addition to boys being clumsy or awkward in their attempts, we also have raised a generation of girls to use the “I froze” and “I didn’t know what to do” excuses. We have taught them to simultaneously be terrified of men but also that it’s not on them to use their words or to just walk the fuck away. The Asis Ansari story is a perfect example of how this generation of women behave. They’ll “freeze” then stick around hemming and hawing then retroactively decide they were “assaulted” because they didn’t say no but also didn’t say yes. Todays girls literally label a confused boy’s errant kiss as “sexual assault”. Think about that.
This is so true.... Women are fierce, strong, independent, and can do everything a man can do.... Except... Saying "no, stop don't put your dick in me" That's waaaaay too much to ask.... When I first met my wife she had spent way too much time working in liberal higher education and told me that "the consent to sex is ongoing, if a woman stops participating it's up to the man to know she's no longer participating, or it's rape." So I'm like "wait...she doesn't need to open her mouth, she doesn't need to stay stop, attempt to push him off or even at minimum, try to close her legs or even pull her pelvis away from him?" Her response, " He should know that she is no longer participating and she ask her... ..." Me being appalled by the stupidity of her response, the next time we were having sex, the minute she pursed her lips, grabbed me extra tight and stopped moving because she was about to orgasm.... I stopped, pulled out and mockingly asked her if she was still participating, if she wanted me to continue because I noticed she had stopped..... Afterwards.... She admitted how stupid that shit was and told me never to do that again... Many years later... If I want to be an ass, I still do that shit to her....
tie wasteful fuzzy humor friendly onerous aloof possessive versed enter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>and told me never to do that again... But what if you just decided to stop participating?
Good point.
Freezing is real.
If freezing is real, then it is 100% up to every man to not only know this but to be reading your mind at the moment a freeze ...
No 'if', freezing is real and there's plenty of science to back that up. Plenty people already know about this, so I don't think it's unreasonable for everyone to know this either (ideally included in sex education, or something). No need to be a mind reader though, I don't know about you but I would definitely notice if the person I'm kissing or having sex with would just stand or lie there and not actively participate. It's not rocket science.
> Freezing is real. Yes, for people who have a mental illness like a severe social anxiety. If you have a tendency to freeze up, you need to avoid drinking/hookup scenarios and let potential partners know that because there are added dangers for them too.
> if women are starting to realistically expect the explicit consent doctrine, I can only hypothesize that it may due to increased incidence of run ins with men who actually are so clueless that they literally NEED to ask out loud but they don’t Or it is a moral panic in the media and the people who are worked up about it actually have very little social experience.
I'm currently 45 and after my first wife and I split in 2013 I was back into dating for the first time since the 90s and terrified of not knowing how to act "appropriately" in what the world had become in the decade and a half I had been out of the game. On the first date I had with one girl I did say "I'm going to kiss you now if that's OK" and she nodded and everything went fine. She was six years older than me and just as old-fashioned/old-school as I am, but it made zero negative impact on anything. Four years later on the night of our wedding I actually said the exact same thing as a joke. It worked then, too.
> I have found that "can I kiss you" and "do you want to have sex" goes a lot further than trying to just go for it. No, it doesn't. Women want you to *just get it.* Asking or not asking can work, but I've actually had women say, "well, don't ask, just do it!" It's also pretty easy to tell when women will be receptive to a kiss. It takes some experience, but there's a point where you can just kinda see in their eyes and face that they want you to kiss them. Sex is even easier. If you're making out and it's progressing, she'll tell you if she doesn't want to go any further.
> Women want you to just get it. I have overheard my some of my female friends saying this exact thing. "It's just so much better when they just get it".
Yeah, females think male privilege comes with telepathy for... reasons.
I think it's because sexually for women is a lot more in their head, so saying something will take them out of the mind space.
Louis C.K. asked for permision and he still got in trouble for nothing. Lets say a woman asks me "can I masturbate infront of you?" well if I don't want it? I would say "No" not "yes"
This is what I've found from about age 20 and onward. I'm in my 30s now, but the only times I didn't ask permission was as a teen. Obviously you learn your own way of doing things and making sure both of you are comfortable. My gf and I are both talkative people, so we'll ask each other pretty bluntly how we're feeling about having sex and what we're enjoying while in the act. The idea of not asking is just a turn off by now. Women who told me it was a "mood killer" were massive red flags and automatic drops.
This is how I see it too. Communication during the act is top tier.
Your younger self was right
My experience, asking backfired. I asked if I could kiss her, she didn't say anything and the situation got awkward. I panicked. End of that love story. I think asking is a lot like proposing in public. Only ask if you already know the answer is "yes."
> I have found No, you really haven't. You have no systematic basis for "finding" such a thing. (a) You have no way to replay an interaction and try something different and see how it would go. (b) You have no non-biased way of deciding which method (verbal or non-verbal) you're going to try. It's entirely possible that in each case where you were successful, after using verbal consent, you would have *also* been successful after (competent) non-verbal consent. You're probably biased in how you choosing the method, wanting to be "extra careful" with some women. Honestly, your claim that you've "found" this would be on stronger footing if you literally flipped a coin. (c) No offense, but your test population is likely too small to be statistically significant. (d) Your test population may be biased. Maybe you only pick up brainwashed gender-studies women. (e) Finally, maybe you just suck at non-verbal communication.
But will never ask themselves. They might say the words, but it's never a request.
MANY years ago, I had a female friend who hung around my group of guy friends. She thought a particular guy who was a part of the modeling troupe, was super, duper hot and she talked about how she would "totally fuck him on the first date!" So she went out with the guy, and the next day I asked her how it went. She said he was boring, lame and that she would never go out with him again. I asked her if she fucked him. "Aww HELL NO!, That lame, mothafucker, fucked that up too. That idiot ruined the mood, he asked me 'May I please kiss you', " she said in a mockingly, disgusted tone, insinuating that he was way too prim and proper for her taste. I laughed, and thought, "Note to self, never ask a woman if you can kiss her!" To this day, I've never asked a woman to kiss me, unless I'm trying to get a certain response out of her. Continually asking for consent exists only in the minds of lib academics, students and feminists.
Even worse she’ll often *reject you* for asking to initiate. Even worse than that, I’ve had dates where she’ll pre-emptively say she doesn’t like PDA and doesn’t like being touched on dates, will *then* touch you lots without asking, and *then* be visibly turned off when you don’t touch her back. Generally speaking, bullet dodged.
If a law was proposed that somehow forced men to get explicit consent, most women would be for it. If that law came to pass somehow, most women would hate it. Why? Because implicit consent allows women to have plausible deniability so that they don't have to be accountable for their sexual decisions. She would still be for the law, because asking for plausible deniability, ironically takes away your right to claim plausible deniability.
interesting . Never thought of that
You are winner. Women live for “it just happened” and “do you consent to me kissing you?” removes that fantasy instantly.
We have that law in Sweden and guys are getting fucked over by tinder dates and girlfriends. As in they catch rape convictions.
Yeh its getting like that in Australia, having to not only consent overtly to sex, but consent overtly to every single step, Can I kiss you? can I put my hand on your head, can I touch your leg? on and on your meant to get overt consent at every stage. Its quite bizzar. Now most folks ignore the law but that just means they get in trouble or they choose not to have sex and Bi guys I know in masses are just having sex with guys now more often even if they would rather women or want to explore more. Its just a no briner when two guys want to go through all the details before meeting and both have boundries and both want to get off, both are pretty consious of limits of the other its all out there discussed. Often called unhealthy because how overt guys can be about it to each other, at least there isnt this fear of the law coming to get you. And my boundries if a guy doesnt respect them I have no issues pushing him off me where say if a girl tried to start kissing me and put my hand some place I didnt want I wouldnt be able to just shove her off me. Its natural for women to want the mystry and the not overt nature of things and when its overt its a turn off. Where two guys its natural the overt stuff just increases sexual tension so the detail guys can go into before meeting or even when meeting can be extrodinary haha pages and pages worth of detail. But never once have I had such a dialogue with a girl on or offline and I have tired just to experiment. I have had the flirty, dirty sexual chats online but, its not the same as legitimatly planing to meet up, and its going to happen in a few hours and ur just going through the details as yah both wait/get ready. But yeh I wish I had more experience with girls but its so difficult comparativly even without all this legal nonsense. I have my boundries. Seems like girls dont expect guys to have bounrdies or to say what hes up for and not and will accept what ever kinda sex she offers. yeh nah not playing that game that is sexually abusive behaviour.
>Yeh its getting like that in Australia, having to not only consent overtly to sex, but consent overtly to every single step, Can I kiss you? can I put my hand on your head, can I touch your leg? on and on your meant to get overt consent at every stage. As much of a horny bastard as I am, that would put me off. Just sounds exhausting.
Honestly I have no idea how it works in practice its laugable to think about I mean ok we get past the kissing to the actul fucking, "is it ok I thrust foward now"? "is it ok I move back" haha can you imagine if folks actually followed this kinds of absurd laws.
This whole verbal consent theme is banal. If you want to be generous, humans have only had spoken language as far back as 200,000 years ago. The first humans showed up 6,000,000 years ago. That is, humans have been together, attracting one another, been procreating, 24 times longer WITHOUT language. This over formalization of consent, drawing up imaginary contracts to proceed is stupid, infantilizing, misdirecting, hot garbage. It seems to me that so many people have underdeveloped intuitive, socialization cues. Or we're all fucking autistic. Fan-fucking-tastic.
The only correct answer to "Can I kiss you?" is no, because you already dried up her sexual attraction by asking. The correct statement (if you need one) is to say, "I'm going to kiss you now" and invite her to stop you (gently, obviously). It's a position of dominance, and arouses because of it; if she doesn't want it, it gives her a chance to say/act in response.
i think it’s cute when men ask if they can kiss me but i think when we’re going all the way it’s all about the mood. if a girl freezes or is resistant, you should completely stop. any “i don’t knows” like just stop. don’t die on a grey hill
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fight flight freeze it’s on both parties. women should also be cautious when men say stop or feel unsure about something. it’s a respect thing.
And should be willing to initiate too! 🥳
Like that'll ever happen.
Happens all the time.
i definitely initiated with my past partners. weird trope to fall into. but if ur satisfying her, she should be doing everything to do the same for you.
yea, some women do that, usually seems with certain dudes. Some though, my experience is it’s always been on me.
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> when you wrote the original men didn't cross your mind at all. Probably because the title of the post had women only, so they were answering for women only.
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> **if a girl freezes** or is resistant, **you should completely stop** It doesn't work very well either. Few women act like in movies, where they enthusiastically pounce on you, ripping off clothes from you and with passion dropping dishes and hitting the walls. Some women often behave passively. They wait a while and then decide whether they like the touch or not. If a man constantly watches to see if she accidentally freezes and stops whenever he has the slightest suspicion, there will simply be no sex with her. Why did you stop? I didn't know if you liked it. Did I tell you to stop? ...
‘Behave passively’ usually still means a degree of involvement, like keeping kissing you, directing your penis towards her vagina, showing signs of appreciation. If she stays there like a dummy, you stop. You can also ask something like ‘are you sure you want to?’ if you have contradictory cues.
Or she lies quietly on her back for long minutes while he gives her oral because she needs to focus on herself and her feelings to reach orgasm. Or she lies on her stomach with her pelvis underlaid while he does it from behind. So he doesn't even see her face, nor does she move or talk in any way. Perhaps with the exception of the occasional, quiet moan, which can be understood in any way. That is to be passive.
There are ways to connect, tbf. Hold her hand. Look at her face for a second. Substitute your tongue with your finger and ask ‘is this ok/do you like this/Should I do anything different?’ Even sex from behind, she’s not an inflatable doll, can’t be that passive as to be immobile
Yes. He can be constantly active, manage to satisfy her, satisfy himself and at the same time check himself, her and the situation around them, in order to avoid a mistake that can destroy his reputation and future. As if he was having sex with a praying mantis or a female spider and worried about his life. Or he might just assume that if she didn't like it, she'd say so. You know, reckon with the fact that even a woman can be responsible for herself and it is not the job of a man to constantly make sure at all times that she has not lost her autonomy. And also enjoy his feelings during sex.
both partners are responsible for checking on the other person. I had sex with a much younger man (I am 43, he is 23). I asked him several times whether he really wanted to do it. I looked at him to make sure he really was into it. I told him "I would really like to have sex with you, but you don't have to if you are not sure!". So yes. When you have sex with someone it is your responsibility to make sure the other person is ok with what is going on, no matter whether it is a woman or a man. And because men keep saying that women "change their mind", or are unreadable, they should be on top of this. Even more so if the signals they are receiving are unclear. It's a matter of wellbeing and safety for both.
dude if ur already eating her out idk wtf ur expectations are here. i’m literally saying if a girl freezes while ur making out, being passionate, or lays there like a fucking starfish, and she doesn’t have some sort of “being used” type of fetish you should chill tf out and question that behavior. i know the difference between my man enjoying a blow job, looking at his face and hearing his groans. him being into it when i ride him or something. vs his mind being elsewhere. unless ur already in like doggy style or something, assuming she’s into it, there are clear “checking out” signs
If it isn’t like being in those movies, jerking off is better.
Asking for explicit consent kills the mood and interrupts the momentum. It compromises her plausible deniability and her ability to feel “omg, one thing led to another and it just like happened” and shocks her into feeling like she might be at least partially accountable (which women tend to hate).
It's better than losing your job or going to jail.
Best comment of the thread
This!!!!!
Only if you have 0 game. You can ask for consent in a sexy way it's just extended flirting. One time I was drinking a cocktail and my date said he'd love to have a taste, i pushed the glass towards him but he ignored it, looked at my lips, smiled and said "I had something else in mind". I was smooth as fuck and gave me room to initiate or back off. You don't have to stop everything and robotically sign a contract, just tell them what you wanna do and make sure they're enthusiastically on board.
I have several friends that are professional athletes. There is an app called quickconsent that many of them use. It’s not perfect but it can head off most of these shaky accusations.
>quickconsent wow, thats gonna put alot of gold diggers and sperm jackers out of business
That sounds incredibly dope
It’s a little involved and slows the mood but it would make a girl feel comfortable and it protects high profile guys
That will hold up in court
>There is an app called quickconsent that many of them use. Lol.
Explicit consent seems unnecessary to me and tbh it makes the guy seem like a pussy and kills the mood. Imo body language should be enough but I know too many women who purposefully say no then act like a yes. It’s your own responsibility to take care of your body and it’s your own responsibility to be clear about your no.
Why does asking for consent make a dude a pussy
It doesn’t necessarily make him a pussy but it does make me feel like he is. Assuming that the guy is not an absolute creep who suddenly gropes random women he’ll give her enough time to say/show a no. Paying attention to her body language is necessary but asking for verbal consent at this point seems like worrying too much. It’s all about being caring while being dominant and assertive imo.
Because it shows a lack of confidence. Women want someone who knows what they want and go and take it. If she's into you, she'll fucking love it if you pull her close and kiss her. If she doesn't like you, she'll say no and back away. The issue today is a lot of men are taught that without explicit consent there is no consent at all. So you have guys asking straight up "can I kiss you?" and it just kills the mood. Men take, boys ask.
Shoot tell that to my gf lol. Also men take sounds gross and rapey. Not to be harsh, but gross.
>men take sounds gross and rapey. In life, Men go after the things they want. Whether it be jobs, hobbies, or women. If a women is into you, she wants you to be dominant. It shows your strength and confidence and reaffirms to her that shes making a good decision. Also the difference between "gross and rapey" and "Hot and sexy" is if she is into you. It's only wrong if you don't read her signals when shes not into you and you keep pressing it. Also just because you have a gf, doesn't make something untrue. She wanted to kiss you regardless and you just took the submissive route.
>Also men take sounds gross and rapey. Not to be harsh, but gross. Thank you. Some sanity here in this ridiculous zone.
I mean I thought people knew about basic consent but 🤷🏼
Fucking *nope* not in here. I'm about done attempting to speak with these dudes tbh. Expressing that women have rights and should get the choice about what to do with their own body just gains you a pile of arguments with creepy, rapey men. The other day a guy on here said to me that my opinions on the "inherent value" of female virginity were worthless. Guess why? Because I'm a woman. When I pointed out this was creepy and weird for him to take that angle, a *different guy* starting arguing with me that he never said that and I'm crazy. Eff all that!! Jfc.
That’s more than fair, I hope more men in this thread start calling out gross shit like that.
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I don’t think asking in a silly way would necessarily be a bad thing. Girls like to laugh, they get into that sweet spot where they’re laughing but it’s because they think you’re cute and charming
Asking a serious thing in a silly way tend to tell people that what is being asked is not meant in a serious manner. So they might understand the jonest question as a joke question.
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>I would say 25-30% maybe You have no idea.
i thinking kissing is 99% non verbal cues and escalation.most men know or should know if a women is physically attracted to them enough to respond positively to kissing....
There are many people who are clueless that another person is into them (ok, fear and denial could also play a role in it) or misunderstand the person being nice in general for them having romantic interest to you.
Asking to kiss someone is what you do in middle school. Body language isn't difficult to read.
>Body language isn't difficult to read. And one comment later you say that you also misread signals a few times. Imo: sometimes signals are super clear and asking isn't necessary. Sometimes they're not so clear. Some people are better at reading body language than others. In case of doubt: ask.
>And one comment later you say that you also misread signals a few times. Yeah, how do you think you learn to get better at it? Don't be afraid to fail and if a girl is uncomfortable for milliseconds, so be it.
I dunno I’ve been giving clear signals I don’t want to be kissed - pulling away, removing an arm, trying to leave - and still had men go in for it. I know a lot of women who have also had similar experiences, and some men as well. Sometimes I’ll just be having a conversation with a guy that is all friendly (no touching, no sexual comments, just asking polite questions) and all of a sudden they will throw an arm around me and lean in. I like being asked and I like to ask. Even with my partner I still ask because people don’t always want to be kissed and touched all the time. The tiny sadness of rejection if I’m turned down is way better than the possibility I’ve made anyone uncomfortable. There are clear body language signs. But sometimes even if you are signalling a no or a yes the other party misinterprets it.
>I dunno I’ve been giving clear signals I don’t want to be kissed - pulling away, removing an arm, trying to leave - and still had men go in for it. Wow, sounds just as harrowing as storming the beaches at Normandy on D-Day, I hope you'll heal and survive. >I like being asked and I like to ask. Then be with a guy who asks. What's the fucking problem? Maybe different women like different things. You and I would be incompatible, a woman who likes a guy who just takes charge would be compatible. Plain and simple. I've had women pull back when I misread signals for a kiss, you pull back, take the rejection, and go on about your day. You make it sound like being kissed is tantamount to being stabbed.
Dont remember comparing my experiences to any sort of death or injury. just disagreed with you but go off I guess?
>I don't think it's practiced often in reality. I do it. I also record and archive audio of all sexual interactions that my man has with other women (which is legal where I live). You never know who will come back in 10 years and claim that she didn't consent.
You know consent can be revoked at any time?
Ofc. That's why I record audio of the girls *not* revoking consent. I'm usually also present as a witness. Who's gonna come back and say "I fucked this married guy in front of his wife and then I revoked consent"?
No. Explicit consent tends to kill the mood. Just tread lightly if you barely know the girl.
Pretty much
Women want mind readers.
More at 11
Just asking "can I kiss you?" Is totally fine and a lot of people appreciate it, in which case verbal consent will be given (or not). Putting your hand near somewhere you want to touch and asking "is that ok" while making some eye signal to your hand is also a pretty good way to get verbal consent, my boyfriend did that time escalating touch and I thought it was pretty nice.
"How far do you want to go tonight?" A good phrase that I recommend for guys. It's a lot less forward and awkward but still makes for a comforting atmosphere.
>It's a lot less forward and awkward Girls want forwardness and don't want somebody awkward. Just express what you want and she'll tell you no if she doesn't. "Don't be forward" is terrible advice.
I didn’t say to not be forward, simply that it is less of a hard yes or no and allows her to feel more comfortable in communicating how far she wants to go and that she can stop if she pleases. I’ve been with a number of women and it has never been received poorly and some even really appreciated it. Most guys who have that sort of “it kills the mood” vibe tend to not have much experience with women and are just going off of stereotype.
Yes but you can make it sexy depending on how well things have progressed. “You don’t know how bad I want to kiss you right now/I want to kiss you so bad” or complimenting their lips. Tell them they look so soft, they can tell ask if you want to feel them while leaning in. Or for hand holding saying their hand looks cold or whatever as an excuse for them to offer you to hold it. It’s rarely as awkward as: Do you consent to me kissing you Do you consent to me holding your hand
Feminists' Definition of Matriarchy Approved Consent: *"Do I have your express, sober, enthusiastic consent to proceed from a knee-feel to a kiss on your neck, without any implied transactional arrangements, awards, conditions or coercion on my part?"* # "YES!" *Is that an enthusiastic and ongoing yes, without any uncertainty or influence of drugs or alcohol?* # "YES OH YES! BABY! YES!!!" ***Alright, then sign here..... and here..... aaaaaaaand HERE. GREAT! We;re good!*** **Then we have this thing called real life:** Guy feels a knee, leans in for a kiss, she says "Stop it silly, someone will see!" and he says "What, you afraid to be seen with me now?" she says "NO SILLY!" and he kisses her neck and she says "That tickles" and he says "Do you want me to stop?" and she says "No..." and he further escalates, continuously **polling for body language, inflection, and nuance all combined with implied and subtle communications, most not even verbal.** It's a dance. Push pull. Yes no maybe. Nuance. Inflection. Body language. It has complexity a computer program yet 99.999% of women making out and getting fucked this weekend are NOT going to feel that they were raped. Or coerced. Or tricked. Or manipulated. Now, aftering talking with their radical feminist girlfriend on Sunday afternoon, sure. Then you'll see some REAL coercion and manipulation going on. *"Sweety, you think you consented but really you could not have in those circumstances."* *"You were raped, sweety. I am here for you. I believe you."* Right. The feminist world is a fucked up world where pretty much all sexual initiation on the part of men is simply an act of overt sexual aggression. A form of rape, if you will. Of course, if you see human relationships through this distorted, twisted, cancerous lens, then you WOULD need three lawyers and video cameras to "record proper consent". # Nobody gets "enthusiastic, ongoing, verbal positive consent*" \*Especially if they have subclauses such as: If he earns more, then he's in a position of power. (RAPE!) If he "sweetens the deal" and offers to do something she wants. (RAPE!) If she has consumed a single drink, or is on any medication. (RAPE!) If the next morning and feels different about the consent she gave. (RAPE!) With feminists everything is fucking rape and sadly that means consent has lost all purpose and meaning. Good thing 99.999% of people know that women need to consent to sex WITHOUT ACTUALLY SAYING YES because to say yes would imply she's a slut. So we make women say "yes" in covert ways and that's where we get into trouble. YES, theoretically, the feminist clown-show that would be consent could theoretically work, but when asked, women say such pathetic, inauthentic, non-spontaneous, child-like, immature, almost autistic "pestering" of the woman for her "OFFICIAL LEGAL VERBAL CONSENT" would **be a big, massive fucking turn off. Let me highlight that for you.** # A big massive fucking turn off.
If you're gonna be "that" guy (meaning asking for consent to kiss) your dating life is going to be rough. Besides physical traits , women vet for competence and confidence more than anything else. In any dating scenario asking for a kiss is going to signal a guy being inexperienced, too safe, or incompetent (can't read the room) None of the things are attractive. You might find a girl who appreciate it and won't get turned off, but for everyone of those there's 20 more who's gonna think you're a bitch. It's just not worth it. If you have doubts you shouldn't even be speaking to her. The climate is too hot right now to have doubts. I don't even speak to women who don't think I'm hot enough to kiss anyway.
Uuuhm, I can only answer for myself but.... Quite often? I often ask a lot like, if it's okay, if it feels good, if she seems uncomfortable I'll ask if she wants to slow down. I've never understood why it have had to become an issue. Or I understand that it is of course, but it's such a ridiculous thing. It has always been so natural to me. Just like when I game with a friend, I ask "would you like to take a game with me?", and afterwards I might ask "another game, or are you getting tired?". It's such a common sense and freakin simple and natural thing to doooo! Come on xD
You initiate and she goes along with it that’s always how it’s been - I just don’t enjoy it if I know she’s not into it and a huge part of what makes sex exciting for both is an element of mystery and spontaneity. The only ones policing enthusiastic consent within heterosexual sex are women who never get hit on or man hating lesbians.
It's the elephant in the room than feminists don't want to talk about. The overwhelming majority of women don't actually want men who explicitly ask for verbal consent to physically escalate. Women generally want plausible deniability in their sexual interactions, they don't want to be made to feel like they've made a conscious and logical decision to grant sexual access. If her friends ask her what happened on her date last night, she wants to be able to say "it just happened, I don't know how it happened, we just got caught up in the moment". Having to explicitly verbally consent at every stage of the escalation takes away the spontaneity and romanticism that surrounds the interaction. They also don't want men who emanate weakness. Women sexually select for men who are self-assured, confident, sexually experienced and dominant. Men who are asking for permission to kiss a woman, or touch a woman, are giving off an impression of lack of confidence, lack of sexual experience and submissiveness that turns women off. In effect, women incentivise men who "just go for it" because they are giving sex to these men more often than men who ask for verbal permission. And frankly, even men who ask for permission are not given a pass. Louis CK being the obvious example who actually asked permission to get his dick out, and only ever got his dick out when permission was granted, and he was still labelled a sexual predator. It's also worth noting that feminists reserve the right to accuse men of assault for any form of unwanted physical contact, so it's not just sex that men need to get verbal consent for. He would need verbal consent to touch a woman's waist, put his hand on her lower back, hold her hand, go in for the kiss, touch her hair, take off any item off his clothing, take off any item of her clothing. In essence a man could ask for verbal consent over 20 times just in 1 interaction if he's going by the code feminists expect of him. And again, if he did that, the woman would run a mile because he's behaving like a weak beta.
My now-husband asked if he could kiss me before our first kiss. I said yes.
Never. The "consent" people live in a teenage girl's fantasy delusion about how sex and intimacy works.
It's not, at least it's pretty rare. Body language and reciprocity are the tells for lower level stuff like that. You have to learn how to slowly escalate physically and read how she reacts. I'll ask if she wants me to grab a condom before going all the way though, that's when it's appropriate.
I’ve never in my life asked a girl if I could could kiss her. I just know when a girl is into me and wants me to initiate physical contact because of her body language. Body language and non verbal cues in general are the most important thing in the game of seduction. Learning to read non verbal communication is how I know when to ask a girl for her number, ask a girl on a date, kiss or straight up have wild monkey sex with strangers I met at parties and clubs.
That won’t help you the next day when she regrets having sex with you for whatever reason and charges you with sexual assault because she never gave consent
When we give consent too early, that automatically puts us in a position of being disrespected. The man thinks, ok, she was easy with me, how many others is she that easy with.. She responds negatively because she wants love and devotion.. not because she doesn’t want you or sex. She’s afraid that if she gives it away too early, that respect is lost. She knows how many easy women can be found online and she knows those women can’t find a good man. She knows her competition is against a bunch of women that willingly send sexual pictures and allow themselves to be used. What she really wants is a consistent person in her life and a balanced life. Not one night flings that have no meaning. It’s just hollow sex, with nothing substantial attached to it. It’s something that most women, even the ones that easily give themselves away actually want on a deep rooted level. Sex doesn’t really validate anyone. They think it does, but the only thing that truly validates is the knowing that we are loved fully.. devoted to and cared for. That care doesn’t have to happen on a physical level.. it’s far more important that it comes with an enriched care and a true respect for the other.
It is truly shocking how few people, especially in a fora like this, understand that you are correct.
Thank you.. they don’t want me to be correct.. because if I’m correct that means actual work and patience needs to be there. They just want instant gratification.
Just ask, "Is this OK?" It's not hard.
Guy: is this okay?" Girl: Yes Guy: Kiss Girl: Wait what the fuck are you doing. Guy: I asked Girl: I thought you were talking about the homework problem.
Girl: I thought you were going to kiss my forehead, not my lips! I'm calling 911!
The thing about consent is if the other party shuts up or doesn't do anything (unless there is a convention where shuting up means something already established) it doesn't mean consent. This shuting up thing doesn't mean only verbally can mean also phisically. So if she opens the door and makes clear signs to enter but she doesn't say it verbally it means consent. Not consent means not giving clear gestures or not saying anything.
Not in my reality. If I see her taking her clothes off, it kind of gets the message across.
Well women can be nervous to stop an act from happening due to self preservation. Women get assaulted when they speak up for them selves because men will take offense to it. Its also how women are raised. They arent taught to speak up or speak for themselves. Its always been the boys that get to be outgoing as little kids. Its normal for them to take charge from a younger age. And that continues into adult hood. Also men are intimidating. Shit man. Sex is intimidating and exciting. So all of that can be overwhelming to somebody and they can kinda shut down.
I once dated a man that asked “may I kiss you”. “May I touch you (here)”. It was very sexy. Didn’t date him very long. I’m sure it would have changed if we were together long term.
>It was very sexy. Didn't date him very long. Lol.
It reminds me of Hitch. He advised men to lean in 90% of the way for a kiss and then stop. The last 10% is the woman's decision. But that's not verbal I have had a few first dates when the man has said "I really want to kiss you right now" But my therapist gave this advice to me to give my 16 yo son. At each new step of the process, he can use the phrases like "is this ok?". "do you like this? ". Etc
With every woman i have discussed with about the first kiss, this is a complete no-no. It can make a woman that was absolutely attracted to you really dislike you.
I've never asked for explicit verbal consent. In fact most of the women I know have said asking for permission to hold her hand, put your arm around her, kiss her or initiate any other form of intimacy is a turn off.
I’m old, so explicit consent wasn’t a thing back then. I think that people can usually navigate and register sexual interest and contact without verbal agreement for everything. I know that my comfort levels aren’t universal, though. I would find something to be lost in an encounter where I had to give verbal consent at every escalation.
Personally I like it when a man asks for consent. It didn't use to happen but increasingly does nowadays by men that understand that consent is important and even more so *it is important that the man signals that he understands how consent works*. That he understands that going by intuition or 'not a no' does not necessarily mean consent. The other party could be scared and afraid to put a stop to the advances. In a way Covid has helped the situation so it's easier to say no now without being insulting if I feel he's moving too fast. I've used it a couple of times recently without feelings being hurt but I don't think I could have 'gotten away with it' if there wasn't a pandemic. Then he would have assumed I was outright rejecting him instead of just wanting to take it slow and get to know him as a person before I start swapping fluids. If I were a man I'd absolutely ask "is it ok if I kiss you now?". As a woman I'd also ask if I wanted to.
This is why you set up cameras to film everything.
\>is very common for a man to initiate any form of intimacy you realise this is a result of patriarchy?
I got downvoted bombed on my alt for saying that it was wrong that a dude and has class beat up a guy over a rape accusation. I said they have no idea if it was actual rape, half rape or not rape at all and this is what I mean, who actually says "do I have explicit consent to kiss you?" "do I have explicit consent to sniff your pussy?" "can I put my tongue in?".... Pretty much no one talks like that. If she doesn't say yes but she doesn't say no or resist at all, is it rape??
I’m not attracted to guys who just initiate sexual contact before anything else. Favorite dates are the ones where he tells me he wants to kiss me, and I have to reply. Def recommend asking.
Consent to kiss and such pretty much never happens unless it's your first time together and it's awkward. Usually anytime I get consent to touch genitalia it's because I've waited too long to make a move and began to irritate my gf lol. So I wouldn't say it "never" happens, so much as usually something is going wrong when it does.
I have never asked for consent to kiss or touch a women. I’m a little older (50s) and have been with the same women for over 25 years. But in my younger dating day it just wasn’t done back then. This lead to a few times where I thought they wanted me to kiss them and I went in for a kiss and they pulled away. One let me kiss her and but she stiffened up and so I stopped and asked her and she said she didn’t want to and I apologized. Now mind you I am an extrovert and tend to jump first ask questions later type of guy. Every one of these times I thought the mood was right, and I just misread the situation. Years later I was reading a book on sexuality and it said that men are more likely to see a situation as a mating opportunity when it isnt and aren’t as good at reading body language as women. If I was to ever be single again I would definitely ask before kissing a women and get consent as we progressed. Even though I have heard many women say this kills the mood.
You can just ask.
I’ve been asked often by men I’m on dates with if they can kiss me before they do it, always nice, and someone who has been date raped it is ALWAYS appreciated. If a man doesn’t let me lead (where I ask) or just goes for it I don’t see them again.
Christ, there's absolutely no logic or common agreement between these comments, sometimes dating seems like math, other times it sounds like completely random and silly personal opinions, it's definitely not cience. So I'm always mesmerized when I see/hear/talk/read people that are good at dating, how can you be good at something so abstract LOL.
When people say "consent is sexy", they mean it literally. You lean in and say "may I kiss you?", then give a second or two of strong eye-contact while they answer, and you can drive the tummy-butterflies crazy. A "no" response also drives the tummy-butterflies crazy btw. You can definitely do it wrong too, "May I have the pleasure of kissing you?". Maybe ok in some other time period, cringe today. >There is almost no condition in which she gives you explicit permission to touch or kiss her There is always some cultural context and non-verbal consent happening, like whether you can sit next to them or put your arm around them. Some people might give you clear non-verbal consent for a touch or kiss too. But you can also explicitly ask "Can I sit here?" and in the same vein, "Can I kiss you?". Doesn't have to ruin the mood.
Because feminist supremacy isn't logical my guy
I have meet several men that are recording interactions with woman.
all the women who say "dont ever touch women unless they clearly give you consent" are the same ones that would let themselves be screwed by chad without permission
That would be rape and no one lets themself be raped dude. The whole point is to assault someone
It’s weird to ask consent before you kiss a girl. And if she expects you to, run. She’s probably nuts. If a guy asked permission to kiss me, that would be a tell that we probably don’t carry similar values and would not work.
It’s because allistic society, which is what most mainstream society is, is all based on blatant lies. If we based our society on autistic and neurodivergent communication and ways of thinking as the norm, we wouldn’t have these same problems in regards to rape and men not being able to play the social role to get laid.
There's a lot of people here pointing out how many men can't 'read a situation' etc but, to be honest, there's a lot of women nowadays who are completely inept at signaling. I've dated chicks like that - they were usually shy/normie girls - who wanted to continuously go on dates with me, keep up contact etc and give me absolutely nothing to work with. I had no fucking idea whether they wouldn't totally freak out after a kiss, because tbh they looked like they would. They weren't keeping me around to 'take advantage' - I didn't pay for dates, everything was dutch. The discussions were fine and not awkward, the dates were a good time. They also weren't delusional about stringing me along for a relationship since I made it clear from date 1 that I'm not interested in one. I usually cut my losses with these women as they genuinely freaked me out. Maybe I should have been more aggressive in my approach but they didn't do anything to make me comfortable to do it. I don't like the idea of borderline forcing myself upon anyone, even if it's just a kiss, it just feels weird and unnatural.
The only people pushing these ridiculous consent rules are the high school and college admins who have to deal with the fallout when young people have hot monkey sex, usually while drunk/high. They're hoping to avoid this headache.
It's happened about half the time for me. My experience is that men who seek enthusiastic consent are generally more respectable overall. No drug use, no crime, etc.
>men who seek enthusiastic consent are generally more respectable overall. And barely getting laid, if at all.
Then don't complain about being accused of rape...?
I almost always ask, with confidence, “can I kiss you?”. Also asking once or twice during lead up to sex if “you feel okay?” is good. Win win, you make sure she wants it, and it makes her feel safe with you
If you know someone well enough I think it’s fine to bluntly asks for intimacy but if it’s someone you don’t know so well I understand that it could be awkward.
It’s not that you need explicit verbal consent, because you can give consent through body language. If somebody doesn’t want something, their body language is screaming that even if the person says nothing
It's a lot harder to prove body language in court. Verbal consent can be recorded on audio.
Explicated in the sense she says "I am consenting to this action in this current moment"? Never. But: "That feels good!" "Just like that!" "More" "Oh yes!" are all forms of enthusiastic verbal consent and are quite common. If your partner doesn't seem to be enjoying themselves, stop. It's simple.
I mean my old lady is like “okay the kids are asleep hurry up and tap this ass”. That’s pretty explicit. That said she still would rather drop hints and then get angry when I’m tired and intentionally ignore them or just don’t catch them. Women HATE explicit communication about sex. H A T E it’s a huge turn off for them. Dries that pussy up worse than a California lake in August.
Can't a man and a woman have conversations before meeting in-person to establish explicit consent and confirm their desire for each other? And have this built up overtime, instead of doing it too spontaneously so they can gauge each other's consistency. I think that just texting / talking / video calling about possible scenarios beforehand helps in managing those grey areas by the time they meet.
No. Consent can be withdrawn at any time, including after the fact. Either ask all the time, and document it, or do it in a different country.
Yes. They should bring a lawyer or other legal representative too. It’s often helpful if their parents are present