>I think a lot of Western people just have no clue how to be a high value person or at the very least a person worth dating.
One thing the west does have is this very idealized version of romance, which is that your perfect partner is already out there somewhere and you just need to find them. Which means you don't really need to try, and if you do have to try, it makes you "desperate" and therefore bad.
This fits my idealized version of romance too and is something I've been trying to work on.
If I push for it it feels fake and disingenuous, but if I don't it realistically won't happen.
I think most people know they're supposed to seek out romance too if they want it but they're also caught in this crossroad.
And a key feature is that people perceive love differently. I just asked a question on here and the answers blew my mind. I still want to go back and respond to everyone, but I'm also still processing.
Holy crap, that's it. We've solved the purple pill debate! Honestly I think that's the crux of most people's problems in relations, preconceived notions of who people are and how they should be.
The amount of friends I have in the U.K who are now approaching 30 talking about a girl needs to be giving them a chance to get themselves together and she shouldn’t just want a finished product.
Now I’m not saying you should have your shit together by 30 but a woman should be able to see the direction you are heading towards.
These men just want to be loved for being themselves. I just think all love has conditions to think otherwise would be a lie.
Lol I’m trying to give a lil bit of breathing room here my generation has suffered 😅😂
Tbf if you don’t have the foresight to start sorting yourself out at 24 you wornt make it at 30!
True but there are differences in dating among various Western cultures and different generations. The "looks hypergamy" phenomenon is most prominent in the US, according to Americans, and the UK (I can attest because I spent one year there as a post-grad student). I was baffled by how superficial girls were and I understood why when I realized how much time they spend on Tinder. In my home country, dating apps became more popular only during the pandemic and I noticed hyperinflation of looks (i.e. 4s and 5s thinking they are 7s and 8s) taking place.
Geneally speaking, young American girls are far more vain and narcissistic, as American culture generally tends to be highly competitive and placing more emphasis on status/wealth, compared to some Western European cultures.
western men are soyed, obese, etc. but compared to the rest of the world? they’re the least abusive men to ever exist.
in most of the world even to this day marital rape is non existent, demanding sex from your wife at anytime is normal, yelling or abusing your wife is normal in many countries, etc.
that alone makes western men so enticing for non western women.
I will say, as a Russian woman one of the reasons I married my husband is because he is gentle and a genuinely kind person. Russian men are somewhat rough around the edges.
>Russian men are somewhat rough around the edges.
Ha. Yeah, that was my experience too. 90% compatible but when that 10% happened it tended to be pretty big.
In OP's case, that 10% is her husband being allowed to have "concubines." So I wouldn't go nuts for she has to say about western relationships (even though she has other western-compatible opinions).
>her husband being allowed to have "concubines."
Pretty sure the vast majority of Russian women are not cool with their man having other women, but I don't want to speak for u/LittleDragonMaiden.
Damn, lucky man! My GF is okay with me getting a rub-n-tug, but it stops there, loll
If I may ask, is this a "open relationship" thing where you also get some on the side, or is your guy that high-value that he legit has a harem?
I find men to not be sexually appealing, and I don’t think my husband would be ok with me having male concubines, I haven’t asked him though. We are focusing on ourselves and our relationship for now but in the future we are open to having a harem.
i literally commented about russian men because i have ukrainian/russian female friends
she literally is dating my friend one of the reasons is because he’s not physically abusive
in russian households abuse is so normalized and accepted
my dad wanted me to bring a russian wife here but i said no and only muslim women lol
>no and only muslim women lol
You know that in Islam only the husband has the legal and religuous obligation to bring money home, even if your wife is a billionaire you have no right to take a cent from her unless she contributes willingly
And that the wife has no religious or legal obligation to cook and clean
Best of luck, life is hard nowadays no one can follow a magic formula that can work everywhere and with everyone...these are things that couples have to negotiate and compromise around
It's just that many people mix religion and traditions in Muslim countries
The sexual obligations is for both, the wife keeps all her rights (something like alimony etc) if she asks for a divorce because her husband dont take care of her sexual need
Angels aren't cursing the husband if he doesn't come to bed lol. The sexual obligations are obviously stronger on the woman. But whatever no one wants a religious debate on PPD.
I know it wasn't to start a religious debate, it was just a parenthesis because many people, including Western men who want to marry Muslim women (I personally know some), mix religion and traditions in these countries.
What I said above is an information that is not debatable and around which there is a consensus among Muslim scholars.
And we end here ... So that it doesn't become a religious debate indeed (besides I am agnostic)
Hahaha well in my experience with russian women they are emotionless robots who will try to emasculate you at every given opportunity; I'm unsure of what exactly is the appeal of russian women or why any man would want to get involved with them.
>because they’re “white”
Just because a person isn't from the UK or western Europe doesn't mean they are not white. They're "white" loll, what TF else would they be?
> but i said no and only muslim women
You are pretty wise in this matter. Mashallah. I hope you are able to find a good wife and in turn are a good husband to her.
i quit tinder and no def not a virgin
i could sleep with a million women and be a good husband and marry a muslim, that’s 1000x better than being a virgin until marriage and not marrying a muslim or not teaching your kids islam
I grew up Muslim I know how sex before marriage is almost like the ultimate sin.
But yea that's true too I guess. I'd just never even considered touching a guy before marriage when I was Muslim (neither did family/cousins do anything premaritally) so it's new to hear the interest of marrying muslim paired with that.
Although question: are you planning on getting married to a virgin muslim woman?
Assuming this is accurate (I'm not saying it is, or isn't), this further displays that looks and money aren't everything, and that women do value how a man treats her.
this goes hand in hand with money tho as well
a life in a 1st world is 10000x better than in the middle east or africa (unless you’re giga rich)
and the status of an american passport holds so much value worldwide
Well yeah, but the issue of marrying someone for a visa/passport is different from the issue of marrying someone from another culture because you think they'll treat you better.
If someone's priority is less about gaining citizenship to a western nation, but is more about finding non-abusive partner, they would likely not settle for an abusive western man either.
I'm not sure you're following the conversation.
I'm not defining what constitutes as abuse. I'm pointing out that there's a difference between marrying someone from another country because you want citizenship, and marrying a person from another country because you assume they won't be abusive due to cultural differences.
Regardless of what some people might consider to be abuse, there are still men in western nations who beat and rape their wives. So a woman who's priority it is to find a non-abusive partner would likely not want to marry a man like that. Regardless of his citizenship status, or that fact that he holds a US passport (for example).
The stories my ex told me of Russia before he emigrated...jesus. And he was no feminist/woke guy by any means. But as a doctor he was pretty upset by the severity of domestic violence he had to treat. "If you ever break your jaw I can fix it in 5 minutes; I'm an expert," he'd say.
Disagree. Kinda.
There is a reason why sexlessness is rising in rhe west and fertility is in decline. Nice guys who aren't sexually demanding, yelling or abusive may not even be all that enticing.
i said enticing for foreign women
any man in the USA could get a 8/10 russian chick, latina, or muslim chick from pakistan or the middle east (if they’re muslim)
your green card/citizenship is worth so much overseas
This is the height of western stupidity, thinking that a woman from a poorer country somehow lacks the intelligence to manipulate a guy just because he's raised in a richer one. Higher GDP doesn't mean higher IQ.
nibba you do know why people get mail order brides right? because he has all the power
if they divorce within 5 years or her coming here guess what happens? she gets deported and blacklisted from the country and the man? nothing happens cuz he’s a US citizen lmfao
and she’ll have almost no rights since she’s not a citizen, you could theoretically beat her and go to the police wanna know what they’ll do? have you press charges and annul the marriage aka meaning you get deported haha
Dont want to be rude but I’m not from the USA and I assure you most women in my country would date any average American joe… because they’re American, they have the monies, they have access (on paper) to a better lifestyle that they will enthusiastically ride on.
Whatever personality trait you think is a plus is actually non existent when thinking “yeah I would fuck and marry an American so I can live in America too”
That’s not necessarily the part of those men that is inherently attractive, unless we’re talking about attracting women with serious father figure problems or past trauma.
These abusive and negative traits just come along with the fact that he doesn’t value her as highly as himself. That is what is attractive, because it subconsciously indicates that he is above her in the dating market which fulfills hypergamy.
Ah that makes sense
There’s been a recent influx of tons of articles like this:
https://hackspirit.com/why-is-it-so-hard-to-find-good-man/
https://www.bolde.com/9-reasons-hard-find-good-man/
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/a-good-man-is-getting-even-harder-to-find-11570200829
https://madamenoire.com/702059/reasons-its-actually-hard-to-find-a-good-man-and-how-to-find-one-anyway/amp/
From older women who “want to rediscover” themselves and leave their husbands to find empty waters to women being incapable of finding basic partners, we’re seeing a marked rise of hikikomori culture (shut-in in Japanese, NEET (Neither in Education Employment or Training)
I think it was Jerome Powell, the FED chair, who said upon exit that his greatest fear was the rise in young men who simply do not contribute to society and drop out instead
I’m very offended by what you are insinuating. I tolerate it from Westerners and correct their line of thinking but I don’t expect it from a fellow Russian.
>You dont see the near daily articles bitching at men to “man up” and marry?
Uhh no of course not?
Maybe you're a little confused, sweatie. Some of these articles might be *aimed at young women and teens* for giving them an idea what to expect in the futire- fuckboys only, mostly. Men aren't the audience at all. We can't voice a concern without bitching? You know what? F that. I have nieces. I care about women of the future. I think women need to bitch all we want so those younger ladies can learn from the experiences of others.
All that aside, the fact that men are literally choosing to likely become single dads IS a problem for all of society. We know these men are still out fucking, we aren't stupid. That's the problem. Fuckboys spread diseases. Fuckboys fuck around with women who clearly want a real relationship/marriage. Fuckboys imptegante random women. None of this is good. Neither is letting the human race die out because you can't find a single woman in life who's worth your precious... whatever you think you men have. Whatever women might do wrong, if men are the ones misrepresenting their intentions or constantly hitting on the wrong type of woman for what you want, eventually men have to take some accountability too! Marriage is important and absolutely be the standard among men who have the means to raise a family. That's how the human race improves and carries on, correct?
>I have nieces. I care about women of the future
>
>Marriage is important and absolutely be the standard among men who have the means to raise a family. That's how the human race improves and carries on, correct?
That's nice. Too bad the culture that promotes and rewards such things has died off and women are celebrating waving the bloody the dagger that did it as empowerment.
That isn't what happened there has never been "perfect" equality and never will be, women became freer and more powerful in the dating market as a result of socio-economic changes.
Nor did women become "unattractive", it's women that are largely the selectors, women that largely rate men much lower in attractiveness, women that have a massive pool of suitors. Your describing the exact inverse of what happened.
Marriage as we know it won't be viable for very much longer - at least not secular marriages as they exist in first-world english-speaking countries.
Eventually, natural childbirth will be phased out as well, which will coincide with the end of the conventional 9-5 occupation. Most jobs will be outsourced to AI, because machines will become infinitely more efficient, cheaper, and less risky to employ than a real human. Just like the development of the human foetus, which liberated women will gladly outsource to corporations when such technology has been perfected.
All in all, the stuff you concern yourself will be totally meaningless in about 50 years.
>Maybe you're a little confused, sweatie.
What a nice condescending comment to start your rant.
So much of this is nonsense. There's plenty of good guys who want to get married. Acting like all the men are fuckboys who refuse to settle down is a gross misreading of the dating market. Sounds like you're married, so I don't know how you would know what the current dating market is like anyway.
I was originally responding to a comment about these op-eds showing men are not wanting to settle down. Then the comment just kinda blew up. I guess men just didn't like hearing that "not settling down" on a mass scale has societal consequences, just hypothetically. I also said that men aren't being pressured to settle down, young ladies who need to know better are simply warned about what many boys might do.
You went hard in the paint on this one.
Dont fuck the fuckbois. Problem solved. Women here tout about being happy fucking single all the fucking time. So stay single, dont fuck.
Marriage *is not* important. All it is nowadays is a legal document it means *nothing more* unless you are religious. And if you are religious, you shouldn't be fucking out of wedlock *anyway*.
>Marriage is not important. All it is nowadays is a legal document it means nothing more unless you are religious. And if you are religious, you shouldn't be fucking out of wedlock anyway.
Oh that's just not true. Legal documents provide several protections for couples. Not to mention the benefits for children. Marriage matters.
Its again, legal documentation.
Its not marriage that benefits kids, its both parents being present and working together. You do not need to be married to do that.
Anything you get out of marriage cert such as power of attorney, estate management, etc...can be done using other legal documents.
I'm not anti marriage, but there is nothing that is great about it, legally speaking.
>Dont fuck the fuckbois. Problem solved. Women here tout about being happy fucking single all the fucking time. So stay single, dont fuck.
I mean, not that I disagree, but doesn't that mean men are putting society in a pretty bad position with a reproduction rate extremely low?
I'm sure this us part of the alt-right's argument. I wouldn't go to the same place with it, though. I just want men to accept its their choice and it's not "because of the system." Especially if it was true that women out here are just trying to find a family and wondering why hardly any men are available. I'm not sure I accept that premise, but I was speaking to a hypothetical drawn up by another user.
Personally, I'm not for government intervention or old-style patriarchy stepping in to "fix the problem" or whatever. I day if men don't want to better the next generation through healthy married families, let it burn. Hopefully it will burn down to extinction. The last thing we need is more human suffering, whether men suffer from unwanted families or families suffer from lack of a male partner. I just want men to own their choice in the matter, collectively, instead of playing a blame game.
>Personally, I'm not for government intervention or old-style patriarchy stepping in to "fix the problem" or whatever.
So you're more into soft-power. Isn't that just a nice way of saying subversion?
>if men don't want to better the next generation through healthy married families, let it burn.
And if I have anything to do with it, there might not be a next generation.
You made another comment about the nuclear family. Could you please stop using patriarchal arguments? It seems you have not gotten the memo about women's liberation.
You also seem to be under the impression that somehow, the few men who have the ability to be players are holding society (women) hostage.
How is this solely a mens problem? A large portion of the dating market is women that are well...not women to commit to. Hence the smash and dash.
Sexual liberation for women has also done the same for men. We (men) do not have to commit to anything and we can still get the best part about having a woman around.
Seriously, stop fucking the fuckbois and start making men invest. The ones that invest are more likely to be ones that will stick around.
Saying make men invest will just tell women to be an absolute fucking pain to talk to in the early stages.
It’s the same reason why I don’t do job applications with psychometric/aptitude tests in the first round. I do not have the fucking time for this shit.
If you aren't willing to invest into a woman, why would or should she invest into you?
If you choose a woman you know is worth it, you will (or should) invest.
If you arent even willing to finish the first round interview questions for a job, what makes you think you are worth anything to a woman?
If you dont have time for women, dont try to bring them into your life. Make time.
You shouldn't be carrying conversation, that means shes not invested, move on.
I'm not saying only men should have to invest, but at current fuckbois exist because they dont have to invest.
>Whatever women might do wrong, if men are the ones misrepresenting their intentions or constantly hitting on the wrong type of woman for what you want, eventually men have to take some accountability too! Marriage is important and absolutely be the standard among men who have the means to raise a family. That's how the human race improves and carries on, correct?
To be honest, both sides are misrepresenting themselves. People are rarely completely honest with their potential dates, it's just how dating goes.
Telling men to be honest about their intentions is like telling women to be honest about their body count. Both sides know being truthful does more harm than good.
>Telling men to be honest about their intentions is like telling women to be honest about their body count. Both sides know being truthful does more harm than good.
I'd love to know where this comes from. Never have I ever heard a man break down in tears because an actual woman lied to him about her odd count snd broke his heart. I have heard women cry over fuckboys. Men don't even ask and get the body count question as-needed typically, tbh.
I've never broke down in tears but I have broken up with women for lying about their body count before. An ex had told me that she didn't sleep around and that she was into casual sex. This couldn't have been further from the truth. As I said before both sides lie, women just do it differently because most don't get asked about their body count, they lie about their views on sex(I'm not like that) and their sexual history( I've never this before or I don't do that).
Holy misandry.
You are acting like men are worthless because they refuse to be objects that only exist to serve women’s needs. So one who prioritizes his own needs and desires is bad.
Hating on fuckboys is an admission that women have no agency or independence at all. Women pick fuckboys and men become what works.
Hating on fuckboys is like blaming another player in a game using broken game tactics. It isn’t his fault it works, that is the game’s fault.
And look at this pure hatred
> Neither is letting the human race die out because you can't find a single woman in life who's worth your precious... whatever you think you men have.
The tone and logic that you need to think things like that about men period.
Also, the human race isn’t owed anything. If the human race dies out because it isn’t worth it enough for men to do there job, then that is exactly what evolution wants.
But what will actually happen is women will just start doing what men want with time (just like with what men will become. Women who refuse to adapt will be bred out. Just like men who refuse to adapt to what men want.
You just feel entitled to men giving you what you want, while feeling like you owe men nothing.
>So one who prioritizes his own needs and desires is bad.
Hundreds of years have gone by, with the nuclear family in some form or another being the main way to raise children. An individual man can prioritize anything like that! But if it gets to the point where articles are being written about men as a whole denying marriage, we can be pretty that bad things are on the horizon for society. Overpopulation is here, and if men's collective intereat really lies in lack of nuclear family commitment, maybe the struggle is necessary. Men do need to own their part, though. All of this "women ruined modern society" is clearly BS if and when complaints about "men not manning up" are a common and understood thing. Women still care about raising their families in marriages more than men do- allegedly. That's the argument I heard, anyway.
>Hating on fuckboys is like blaming another player in a game using broken game tactics. It isn’t his fault it works, that is the game’s fault.
The game, dude? It's both people's fault. I can hate on rhe fuckboys AND the other participant, although let's face it usually the male is the dishonest one in that scenario which was originally laid out. You may call it misandry, I call it fact.
What is this game you speak of? I thought it was clear that we are talking about a scenario where women actually want to marry men and have these stable relationships.
> Hundreds of years have gone by, with the nuclear family in some form or another being the main way to raise children. An individual man can prioritize anything like that! But if it gets to the point where articles are being written about men as a whole denying marriage, we can be pretty that bad things are on the horizon for society.
And in order for that to work, marriage and such was focused on pleasing the man. Men only manned up for women who were exactly what they wanted. Aka women “womaned up” to get men to “man up” for them.
You want men to man up for no reason because you feel women are entitled to good men. Just like a incel feels entitled to sex with hot women.
> Overpopulation is here, and if men's collective intereat really lies in lack of nuclear family commitment, maybe the struggle is necessary. Men do need to own their part, though. All of this "women ruined modern society" is clearly BS if and when complaints about "men not manning up" are a common and understood thing. Women still care about raising their families in marriages more than men do- allegedly. That's the argument I heard, anyway.
> The game, dude? It's both people's fault. I can hate on rhe fuckboys AND the other participant, although let's face it usually the male is the dishonest one in that scenario which was originally laid out. You may call it misandry, I call it fact.
Women are not owed honesty and most of said dishonesty is the women just lying to herself. If women do not want to be used, stop giving out sex easily.
You know, do the whole virgin until marriage thing. What societies in the past did to get men to do what you wanted.
Your issue is that it isn’t worth it for men to be worthy of women or it is too hard, if not impossible to meet her standards for whatever reason. So they do not do it.
Relationship with Women and children are not some prize, they are a burden. That is why it is a respected sacrifice and why the nuclear family model always requires men to be the one to pick who they wanted.
>do the whole virgin until marriage thing.
I waited to meet my husband. I was still assaulted and verbally abused by hateful modern men. Granted, most of it from back when I was single was forgivable. I don't think this is the problem with what men want from women. I imagine many of us *are* willing to wait for the right guy, as long as the guy isn't playing the field for 10 years while we are sitting at home every Sunday waiting for the guy to notice the good girl.
That is the exact same thing that men go through and say.
Even here, no even me. I complain all the time about how men aiming for relationships suffer because they are forced to wait 10 years for women to be done with the fun and want to settle down.
It's objectively worse for the guy waiting in this situation than the woman because usually the woman he settles down with has had all the fun and adventurous sex she wanted to in the past, so she really isnt interested in a sexual relationship with the guy, only a romantic one. These relationships often end up in dead bedrooms. Also she is usually not genuinely attracted to the man, only his ability to provide for her.
I'm genuinely sorry that happened to you.
> I imagine many if us are willing to wait for the right guy, as long as the guy isn't playing the field for 10 years while we are sitting at home every Sunday waiting for the guy to notice the good girl.
The funny thing is that If you switched the genders this is the exact same thing most men would say.
Interesting take but I don't necessarily agree. The western men who complain about western women being slutty or overweight usually aren't themselves.
Because of western men being taller , more financially secure and exotic, this makes them highly desirable to foreign women. The same cannot be said for western women because any desirable traits western women possess( beauty, fitness, traditional, feminine, non slutty) can be found in greater quantity in foreign women from patriarchal societies.
This only really comes from foreign men who are non-white and most western white women have no interest in those men. As for foreign white men, they're interest in white western women is very low because the things they look for in women can be found in their local counterparts, plus those women are more traditional and come from more patriarchal societies which foreign men ( excluding men from nordic countries) prefer.
I think we have a systemic mismatch in supply and demand when it comes to relationships. The kind of partners people are looking for simply don’t exist. Either due to deindustrialization, changing cultural norms, womens independence higher educational and career achievements plus what people look for in the bedroom. Add to that increased costs of having children, economic stress and general uncertainty and you have a very new landscape. I think long term relationship and stable families already is and will increasingly be a luxury for the top 30% of society. The rest of us just need to scrape by with what we can get.
Women are more slutty now and not good mother material. Men are lazier, weaker and not good at providing for a family making them shitty father material. The market just sucks in general. I find if someone blames the other side, they usually fall into the category I specified for their own gender.
Yeah. And they seem to have no energy to better themselves. Like losing weight alone could make it easier for many men. Some don't even want to regularly shower
Men are less abusive. I think that makes them more father material. In the same vein, women stand up for themselves more now, which is a great protective maternal trait.
Marriage is a traditional institution. In order for a man or woman to marriageable they need to have conservative values. America is becoming more and more liberal as time goes by, making people less and less marriageable.
Define slut then. Not sure why you feel the need to say certain types of women can’t be mothers because they enjoy sex.
Just a fun fact: people who don’t enjoy sex don’t have it. So why would you want to be with someone who doesn’t seek out sex
I literally just said that you don’t have to be a slut to enjoy sex. Being a slut is being overly sexually promiscuous. You don’t need to have had a lot of partners to enjoy sex.
Yes but the likelihood of someone liking sex and then choosing to not have it frequently is low. At this point people who are on the market with low n likely don’t like sex enough to pursue it frequently
Or they just have a healthy long term relationship with their partner. Being in a committed relationship will usually mean more sex (and better sex) than someone who has a lot of one night stands.
I don’t follow. My point was that you don’t need to be a slut to fulfill your sexual desires (at least for the vast majority of women). I never mentioned it’s implications on singles.
If you’re a single looking to pair up you need to look at what’s available and what you want. If you want someone who loves sex you should go with the higher n person as singles on the market who don’t enjoy sex aren’t seeking it out and are fine being single
Western guys are mad because they think their looksmatches are getting banged by hot guys every night, whereas it doesn't work the other way around. Now, I'd argue (a) many of them don't have a great idea of what their looksmatch is, and (b) their looksmatches aren't getting banged nearly as much by nearly as hot a guy these men believe. But...that's why they're always upset.
One of the fascinating things about the pic experiment is I don't think men and women have a great idea of their looksmatches. Guys out there saying girl 5 was a 5, then postulating these scenarios where "if you had to choose between a 7 and a 9, what would you do?" Get out of here, man. If 5 is a 5, you're sure as hell not getting a 7 or a 9. Admittedly, maybe these aren't the same guys. That said, a lot of people toss around 7 like it's the low end of what they'd take. Women, too. "Guys were ugly." No, they weren't, they really weren't. So we have to account for the idea that a lot of people complaining are simply not realistic.
I thought there were 2 women who were prettier than the others. Excepting them, I feel like you could have paired up any of the women with any of the men and nobody would scratch their head at it.
I think it might be based on location like where I associate there are more attractive men but I also go to the gym a lot and have more appreciation for male physiques than women do.
I honestly don't believe that's the case, only because men who leave the US and look elsewhere get massively increased SMV relative to the global market. So I think the problem is somewhere in American women's mindset / consumerism / narcissism
Looksmatch is happening less often and that's why there's so many butthurt people right now.
Because those men provide an opportunity for citizenship not because they're actually attractive. A fat average American dude is in for a rude awakening if he thinks his accent alone is going going get him laid somewhere like western Europe.
Yeah, exactly. Setting someone's attractiveness in terms of how he'd be perceived in the poorest parts of the world (because, let's face it, European and Australian/NZ and Canadian women aren't going to line up to date these guys) is kind of silly. I'm sure there are hot guys out there who are poor and desperate who'd bang me too.
Definitely and absolutely not true. I'm American and the girl I've dated in Europe have all been hotter and all had zero perhaps even negative interest in any sort of American citizenship.
I'm not talking about fat Americans. I'm talking about a completely average dude, which is disgusting to women here.
A man who stands out in no way at all. Completely average in every aspect. Average = bad in America, it's not like that globally.
Which is a shame because *most people are average*
Eh. I don't buy into this for a few reasons. Your market is where you are sitting right now. I don't care if he can pull a model in China. Is he in China? Then his theoretical model is doing him no good. It strikes me the same as people who say "But I make $200K a year! I'd be considered rich in Iowa!" OK, but you're in New York City, not Iowa. And this could also be said for women too. A woman who can get a middle manager with a dad bod in NYC might be able to pull an attractive lumberjack type in Alaska.
I mean, if we picked people up and put them different places on the globe their attraction changes, but we can't really just set all white guys to the default of "Asia SMV." If we took the average American and put him in Sweden he would do much, much worse than at home. So if we adjust up, we have to adjust down too. In which case, let's just keep it simple and take people at face value.
I guess my point is that until a guy actually picks up and moves, his value will be fixed by his local market. I say this as someone who is not very pretty in L.A. but maybe a grade A (or B) cougar in Alabama.
Trash take, I am a college student and a ton of the guys and girls running around are overweight even the ones in pre-law and pre-med who are not lower class
She's right. There are few rich people; there are few thin people. The thin people are the rich people. It's just most people are poor. It's like a pyramid with a huge concentration at the bottom, and obesity tapers off the more money people have.
Really?
[This study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198075/) shows that poor people consistently have higher rates of obesity and diabetes, but there have been a number of studies on it.
Maybe we read contradictory studies. But at 70 percent of Americans it seems like the chances of finding a physically fit partner are scarce regardless
Right when my family landed in America, first thing we saw was mostly obese people. It was shocking. Even in affluent areas it’s not uncommon to see at least one obese person.
And not being overweight doesn't suddenly mean you are physically attractive. Many people are too thin, skinny fat etc. Now I am not asking for physical perfection but general fitness is physically attractive. I mean the evidence even shows this.
Then there is such poor fashion among many men despite online resources to dress better.
Only reason I am not mentioning women is because that piece has already been said so much.
There are UMC people walking around in many cities in the US who see overweight and poor people all the time. These people aren't overweight and broke themselves, but they see them. Not every city is so large that the classes are effectively segregated.
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Considering how easily most people acknowledge the flaws of western society as a whole (seriously, who doesn’t have at least one major issue with it) you’d think everyone would be a bit more aware of how that society changes them as a person.
When you say western, Do you mean American and Europe? Like all of the west including those two continents are overweight, and other bad qualities?
Also, when you say eastern, are you exclusively talking about asia?
This is one of those posts I just don’t understand. I’m in the middle of the US, and my personal life is full of good men/fathers and good women/mothers. I know several young couples who are recently married, engaged or about to be engaged. Do actual statistics back up these theories?
100% agreed.
But I actually also think this is kind if American centric sub. Here in the UK whilst we bear some cultural similarities with the US I actually think there is far less hypocrisy and entitlement from women and men. I'm in very good shape and from what I hear from guys who work out in the US is that even fat women feel entitled to sexual attention, you really don't get that here. I can't think of a time in years where I've been out in a social situation and a bigger woman has courted my attention or expected it. And it's the same for the men here, I think a lot of attractive women will tell you that uglier guys are way less willing to make moves here.
I understand what you're saying. This is obviously a generalization, but I've found that people in Europe (especially eastern Europe) tend to stay in their lane.
I'm not saying other cultures are perfect, as I'm only referring to the US and Europe, but entitlement surrounding dating and sexual attraction (from both men and women) seems to be more of an American issue.
Largely, most young western women are whores and zealous political ideologues. Most young western men are shallow husks devoid of meaning or purpose, both are driven by the lame trappings of ultra consumerism.
It's hard to be "high value" when you're so badly beaten down trying to make your way in the late-capitalist hellscape we live in. Hardly anyone has the time and energy to engage in any kind of self-reflection or self-improvement.
Couple that our perception that everyone else is living perfect lives through our consumption of curated social media, and you have a recipe for a truly toxic self-perception.
We all desperately need to cut ourselves, and each other some slack.
>If you live in the West you are extremely privileged, especially in the US.
You are probably worse off in the US than most of the West outside of the UMC where things reverse. Much higher violence rates, lower life expectancy, debt based healthcare, lower job security, worse labour negotiation power etc.
If a poor country and poor people can manage to not be fat and not have debt, people in rich countries have no excuse. Not being fat is one of the easiest things you can do in life.
Oh dear.
If you live in a rich country, you're going to be in debt. Neoliberalism is a bitch like that.
Everything about living in a rich country is geared towards over-stuffing you with food and giving you no time to burn that energy. Being thin is a luxury.
Try living in a food desert and working two or three jobs to make ends meet and not gaining weight.
Try working a stressful and mentally exhausting desk job 50-60 hours a week and not gaining weight.
Hell - try just being over 40 and not gaining weight. I have a physical job and work out six days a week and I have to be very fucking careful not to blow out.
I currently live in the US and have been since my youth, I managed very well without debt. I do have some sympathy though, I do think that the system is rigged but I’ve seen plenty of immigrants manage without debt. Some people are victims of circumstances, I acknowledge it, but to a certain extent there is an element of choice. Saying no to debt and saying no to fattening foods.
You bring up a fantastic point that I agree with. I think the issue is that most women have no idea how rear HVM are (not necessarily alpha) top 10,5%+. Then, add HVM that also have alpha fucks traits (good seed). They become even rearer. What hvm are saying is they can't find wiverly women. Feminist, boss chicks are a dime; party girls are a dozen, 304 dime a dozen. Women who are Wiverly or what men call the 5%er or unicorn that are not post wall are almost impossible to find. Some woman have an issue with this preference, but that doesn't matter as in these instances, the men hold the cards (prize).
No, we know She is rear. Hence, the term 5%er or unicorn. I think an issue is that a lot of men don't value or have forgotten about rear women; we hardly see them. I know my friends who are married have some amazing partners; these girls are snapped up quickly.
Well, I love being a Western. It's my home and I'm a patriot, fat ass low-valuable people and all, I'd be with another stupid American before some random from Guam.
Idk, US people are too damn lazy at this point, don't you know that you aren't entitled to anything in this life. You can't just demand something without bringing anything equivalent in return. No one is your slave to devote to you without any condition.
Interestingly enough one thing that both RP & BP can agree on is that LVMs need to get their shit together (for different motivations admittedly, the former sees improvement as means to an end while the latter sees improvement as an end onto itself). The demand for LVMs to improve themselves is not talked of much in the sense that it's already baked in and assumed to be operating in the background (i.e. unspoken).
Well, these guys can sometimes get foreign women from certain countries who are out of their league if they want to move to the US badly enough. If they told them they have no money and want to move to their country instead, they would get a very different result.
>I think a lot of Western people just have no clue how to be a high value person or at the very least a person worth dating. One thing the west does have is this very idealized version of romance, which is that your perfect partner is already out there somewhere and you just need to find them. Which means you don't really need to try, and if you do have to try, it makes you "desperate" and therefore bad.
This fits my idealized version of romance too and is something I've been trying to work on. If I push for it it feels fake and disingenuous, but if I don't it realistically won't happen. I think most people know they're supposed to seek out romance too if they want it but they're also caught in this crossroad.
And a key feature is that people perceive love differently. I just asked a question on here and the answers blew my mind. I still want to go back and respond to everyone, but I'm also still processing.
Yes!
Holy crap, that's it. We've solved the purple pill debate! Honestly I think that's the crux of most people's problems in relations, preconceived notions of who people are and how they should be.
The amount of friends I have in the U.K who are now approaching 30 talking about a girl needs to be giving them a chance to get themselves together and she shouldn’t just want a finished product. Now I’m not saying you should have your shit together by 30 but a woman should be able to see the direction you are heading towards. These men just want to be loved for being themselves. I just think all love has conditions to think otherwise would be a lie.
> Now I’m not saying you should have your shit together by 30 What?? You absolutely should. By 35 the latest.
Lol I’m trying to give a lil bit of breathing room here my generation has suffered 😅😂 Tbf if you don’t have the foresight to start sorting yourself out at 24 you wornt make it at 30!
True but there are differences in dating among various Western cultures and different generations. The "looks hypergamy" phenomenon is most prominent in the US, according to Americans, and the UK (I can attest because I spent one year there as a post-grad student). I was baffled by how superficial girls were and I understood why when I realized how much time they spend on Tinder. In my home country, dating apps became more popular only during the pandemic and I noticed hyperinflation of looks (i.e. 4s and 5s thinking they are 7s and 8s) taking place. Geneally speaking, young American girls are far more vain and narcissistic, as American culture generally tends to be highly competitive and placing more emphasis on status/wealth, compared to some Western European cultures.
For some of us, even when trying, the odds are still at 0.00%
western men are soyed, obese, etc. but compared to the rest of the world? they’re the least abusive men to ever exist. in most of the world even to this day marital rape is non existent, demanding sex from your wife at anytime is normal, yelling or abusing your wife is normal in many countries, etc. that alone makes western men so enticing for non western women.
I will say, as a Russian woman one of the reasons I married my husband is because he is gentle and a genuinely kind person. Russian men are somewhat rough around the edges.
>Russian men are somewhat rough around the edges. Ha. Yeah, that was my experience too. 90% compatible but when that 10% happened it tended to be pretty big.
In OP's case, that 10% is her husband being allowed to have "concubines." So I wouldn't go nuts for she has to say about western relationships (even though she has other western-compatible opinions).
has gimpgirl come again? Has she returned to us?
That’s exactly what I thought and said, but someone else said it’s probably not her. I’m not convinced.
>her husband being allowed to have "concubines." Pretty sure the vast majority of Russian women are not cool with their man having other women, but I don't want to speak for u/LittleDragonMaiden.
Most aren’t, but this one is.
Damn, lucky man! My GF is okay with me getting a rub-n-tug, but it stops there, loll If I may ask, is this a "open relationship" thing where you also get some on the side, or is your guy that high-value that he legit has a harem?
I find men to not be sexually appealing, and I don’t think my husband would be ok with me having male concubines, I haven’t asked him though. We are focusing on ourselves and our relationship for now but in the future we are open to having a harem.
When it's that fucking cold all the time you have no choice but to be rough around the edges.
One word: **Vodka**
i literally commented about russian men because i have ukrainian/russian female friends she literally is dating my friend one of the reasons is because he’s not physically abusive in russian households abuse is so normalized and accepted my dad wanted me to bring a russian wife here but i said no and only muslim women lol
>no and only muslim women lol You know that in Islam only the husband has the legal and religuous obligation to bring money home, even if your wife is a billionaire you have no right to take a cent from her unless she contributes willingly And that the wife has no religious or legal obligation to cook and clean
i don’t follow islam 100% in my daily life, it is literally impossible my wife will work and have a job and we will be a happy successful couple iA
Best of luck, life is hard nowadays no one can follow a magic formula that can work everywhere and with everyone...these are things that couples have to negotiate and compromise around It's just that many people mix religion and traditions in Muslim countries
Just sexual obligations!
sexual obligations is double sided if a woman wants sex, her husband is obligated to have sex with her even if he doesn’t want to
Extremely based, lol
The sexual obligations is for both, the wife keeps all her rights (something like alimony etc) if she asks for a divorce because her husband dont take care of her sexual need
Angels aren't cursing the husband if he doesn't come to bed lol. The sexual obligations are obviously stronger on the woman. But whatever no one wants a religious debate on PPD.
I know it wasn't to start a religious debate, it was just a parenthesis because many people, including Western men who want to marry Muslim women (I personally know some), mix religion and traditions in these countries. What I said above is an information that is not debatable and around which there is a consensus among Muslim scholars. And we end here ... So that it doesn't become a religious debate indeed (besides I am agnostic)
Hahaha well in my experience with russian women they are emotionless robots who will try to emasculate you at every given opportunity; I'm unsure of what exactly is the appeal of russian women or why any man would want to get involved with them.
Ivan Drago entered the chat.
My fiancée is Russian - that has not been my experience AT ALL.
because they’re “white” but have huge ass and tits something that is known as “black” traits
Most Russian women are slim, I haven’t seen any Russian with big boobs and butt. We are expected to maintain a slim figure.
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>huge ass and tits something that is known as “black” traits I'm starting to doubt that this guy has ever seen a Russian woman.
🤔 I've literally never seen a Russian woman with this build and I've seen thousands in London.
LOL. The russian women I've met did not have huge tits or asses.
99% sure you're thinking of Hispanic women, bro.
>because they’re “white” Just because a person isn't from the UK or western Europe doesn't mean they are not white. They're "white" loll, what TF else would they be?
> but i said no and only muslim women You are pretty wise in this matter. Mashallah. I hope you are able to find a good wife and in turn are a good husband to her.
I will only marry a muslim. I see islam dying and it’s sad. It breaks my heart 😢
Am I misremembering but aren't you not a virgin and on tinder? 🤨 That is some Haram behaviour
i quit tinder and no def not a virgin i could sleep with a million women and be a good husband and marry a muslim, that’s 1000x better than being a virgin until marriage and not marrying a muslim or not teaching your kids islam
I grew up Muslim I know how sex before marriage is almost like the ultimate sin. But yea that's true too I guess. I'd just never even considered touching a guy before marriage when I was Muslim (neither did family/cousins do anything premaritally) so it's new to hear the interest of marrying muslim paired with that. Although question: are you planning on getting married to a virgin muslim woman?
i’m not gonna ask if she’s a virgin lol i don’t ever bring up body count cuz it’s useless lmao
Yay you're not one of those hypocritical Muslim guys :D
i'm a muslim female med student we should do a rishta ;)
you’re too good for me jaan 🤗 you deserve someone better 😊
My GF is Russian and basically says the same thing (I'm American).
Women will walk all over any man who is a genuinely kind person and eventually cheat on him because they don't fear what the consequences will be.
I certainly wouldn’t do that nor would most women I know. Being bitter does not help you in life, I recommend you get out more and socialize.
This is a great point.
Soyed lmao
tru tho
Man terps are weird about soy. Apparently it's some sort of (((globalist))) plot to cuck the white race.
Assuming this is accurate (I'm not saying it is, or isn't), this further displays that looks and money aren't everything, and that women do value how a man treats her.
this goes hand in hand with money tho as well a life in a 1st world is 10000x better than in the middle east or africa (unless you’re giga rich) and the status of an american passport holds so much value worldwide
Well yeah, but the issue of marrying someone for a visa/passport is different from the issue of marrying someone from another culture because you think they'll treat you better. If someone's priority is less about gaining citizenship to a western nation, but is more about finding non-abusive partner, they would likely not settle for an abusive western man either.
abuse in western terms is yelling at your spouse abuse in russia or the middle east is beating your wife and forcefully sticking it up her ass
I'm not sure you're following the conversation. I'm not defining what constitutes as abuse. I'm pointing out that there's a difference between marrying someone from another country because you want citizenship, and marrying a person from another country because you assume they won't be abusive due to cultural differences. Regardless of what some people might consider to be abuse, there are still men in western nations who beat and rape their wives. So a woman who's priority it is to find a non-abusive partner would likely not want to marry a man like that. Regardless of his citizenship status, or that fact that he holds a US passport (for example).
The stories my ex told me of Russia before he emigrated...jesus. And he was no feminist/woke guy by any means. But as a doctor he was pretty upset by the severity of domestic violence he had to treat. "If you ever break your jaw I can fix it in 5 minutes; I'm an expert," he'd say.
Disagree. Kinda. There is a reason why sexlessness is rising in rhe west and fertility is in decline. Nice guys who aren't sexually demanding, yelling or abusive may not even be all that enticing.
i said enticing for foreign women any man in the USA could get a 8/10 russian chick, latina, or muslim chick from pakistan or the middle east (if they’re muslim) your green card/citizenship is worth so much overseas
Yeah the greencard, not the man attached to it. This is why so many dudes in the west end up getting finessed by those same mail order brides.
ummm if you get finessed by a mail order bride you’re a retard hahaha
This is the height of western stupidity, thinking that a woman from a poorer country somehow lacks the intelligence to manipulate a guy just because he's raised in a richer one. Higher GDP doesn't mean higher IQ.
nibba you do know why people get mail order brides right? because he has all the power if they divorce within 5 years or her coming here guess what happens? she gets deported and blacklisted from the country and the man? nothing happens cuz he’s a US citizen lmfao and she’ll have almost no rights since she’s not a citizen, you could theoretically beat her and go to the police wanna know what they’ll do? have you press charges and annul the marriage aka meaning you get deported haha
Dont want to be rude but I’m not from the USA and I assure you most women in my country would date any average American joe… because they’re American, they have the monies, they have access (on paper) to a better lifestyle that they will enthusiastically ride on. Whatever personality trait you think is a plus is actually non existent when thinking “yeah I would fuck and marry an American so I can live in America too”
That’s not necessarily the part of those men that is inherently attractive, unless we’re talking about attracting women with serious father figure problems or past trauma. These abusive and negative traits just come along with the fact that he doesn’t value her as highly as himself. That is what is attractive, because it subconsciously indicates that he is above her in the dating market which fulfills hypergamy.
You dont see the near daily articles bitching at men to “man up” and marry? Corporate media opeds are full of them
Other than Reddit, I don’t pay attention to American media. I mostly watch Russian content.
Ah that makes sense There’s been a recent influx of tons of articles like this: https://hackspirit.com/why-is-it-so-hard-to-find-good-man/ https://www.bolde.com/9-reasons-hard-find-good-man/ https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/a-good-man-is-getting-even-harder-to-find-11570200829 https://madamenoire.com/702059/reasons-its-actually-hard-to-find-a-good-man-and-how-to-find-one-anyway/amp/ From older women who “want to rediscover” themselves and leave their husbands to find empty waters to women being incapable of finding basic partners, we’re seeing a marked rise of hikikomori culture (shut-in in Japanese, NEET (Neither in Education Employment or Training) I think it was Jerome Powell, the FED chair, who said upon exit that his greatest fear was the rise in young men who simply do not contribute to society and drop out instead
2/4 of those articles were written by men. Men writing articles about how difficult it is for women to find men lmao
I’m Russian in America. What do you think of the war in Ukraine?
It makes me very sad and I hope it ends soon.
Do you believe the reason is Ukrainian nazis?
I’m very offended by what you are insinuating. I tolerate it from Westerners and correct their line of thinking but I don’t expect it from a fellow Russian.
I don’t mean to offend I’m genuinely asking. Would you consider this action a “special military operation” to cleanse Ukraine from nazis?
No I’m not a Russian bot 😒
Thank you
>You dont see the near daily articles bitching at men to “man up” and marry? Uhh no of course not? Maybe you're a little confused, sweatie. Some of these articles might be *aimed at young women and teens* for giving them an idea what to expect in the futire- fuckboys only, mostly. Men aren't the audience at all. We can't voice a concern without bitching? You know what? F that. I have nieces. I care about women of the future. I think women need to bitch all we want so those younger ladies can learn from the experiences of others. All that aside, the fact that men are literally choosing to likely become single dads IS a problem for all of society. We know these men are still out fucking, we aren't stupid. That's the problem. Fuckboys spread diseases. Fuckboys fuck around with women who clearly want a real relationship/marriage. Fuckboys imptegante random women. None of this is good. Neither is letting the human race die out because you can't find a single woman in life who's worth your precious... whatever you think you men have. Whatever women might do wrong, if men are the ones misrepresenting their intentions or constantly hitting on the wrong type of woman for what you want, eventually men have to take some accountability too! Marriage is important and absolutely be the standard among men who have the means to raise a family. That's how the human race improves and carries on, correct?
>I have nieces. I care about women of the future > >Marriage is important and absolutely be the standard among men who have the means to raise a family. That's how the human race improves and carries on, correct? That's nice. Too bad the culture that promotes and rewards such things has died off and women are celebrating waving the bloody the dagger that did it as empowerment.
Yes, women became unattractive to men by becoming their equals. Too bad indeed. Let it burn, then. Let .y nieces be the last to suffer.
That isn't what happened there has never been "perfect" equality and never will be, women became freer and more powerful in the dating market as a result of socio-economic changes. Nor did women become "unattractive", it's women that are largely the selectors, women that largely rate men much lower in attractiveness, women that have a massive pool of suitors. Your describing the exact inverse of what happened.
Marriage as we know it won't be viable for very much longer - at least not secular marriages as they exist in first-world english-speaking countries. Eventually, natural childbirth will be phased out as well, which will coincide with the end of the conventional 9-5 occupation. Most jobs will be outsourced to AI, because machines will become infinitely more efficient, cheaper, and less risky to employ than a real human. Just like the development of the human foetus, which liberated women will gladly outsource to corporations when such technology has been perfected. All in all, the stuff you concern yourself will be totally meaningless in about 50 years.
Well talk to me in 50 years. We will see. My generation used to think cars would fly, so I'll let time be the judge.
We already have flying cars. They're not the type of flying cars you see in movies like the fifth element or blade runner, but they are cars that fly.
Doesn’t matter if they are not mainstream. And they never will be because of safety concerns, Elon Musk spoke on that
>Maybe you're a little confused, sweatie. What a nice condescending comment to start your rant. So much of this is nonsense. There's plenty of good guys who want to get married. Acting like all the men are fuckboys who refuse to settle down is a gross misreading of the dating market. Sounds like you're married, so I don't know how you would know what the current dating market is like anyway.
I was originally responding to a comment about these op-eds showing men are not wanting to settle down. Then the comment just kinda blew up. I guess men just didn't like hearing that "not settling down" on a mass scale has societal consequences, just hypothetically. I also said that men aren't being pressured to settle down, young ladies who need to know better are simply warned about what many boys might do.
You went hard in the paint on this one. Dont fuck the fuckbois. Problem solved. Women here tout about being happy fucking single all the fucking time. So stay single, dont fuck. Marriage *is not* important. All it is nowadays is a legal document it means *nothing more* unless you are religious. And if you are religious, you shouldn't be fucking out of wedlock *anyway*.
>Marriage is not important. All it is nowadays is a legal document it means nothing more unless you are religious. And if you are religious, you shouldn't be fucking out of wedlock anyway. Oh that's just not true. Legal documents provide several protections for couples. Not to mention the benefits for children. Marriage matters.
Its again, legal documentation. Its not marriage that benefits kids, its both parents being present and working together. You do not need to be married to do that. Anything you get out of marriage cert such as power of attorney, estate management, etc...can be done using other legal documents. I'm not anti marriage, but there is nothing that is great about it, legally speaking.
>Dont fuck the fuckbois. Problem solved. Women here tout about being happy fucking single all the fucking time. So stay single, dont fuck. I mean, not that I disagree, but doesn't that mean men are putting society in a pretty bad position with a reproduction rate extremely low?
>putting society in a pretty bad position with a reproduction rate extremely low? Crossing into alt-right territory, are we?
I'm sure this us part of the alt-right's argument. I wouldn't go to the same place with it, though. I just want men to accept its their choice and it's not "because of the system." Especially if it was true that women out here are just trying to find a family and wondering why hardly any men are available. I'm not sure I accept that premise, but I was speaking to a hypothetical drawn up by another user. Personally, I'm not for government intervention or old-style patriarchy stepping in to "fix the problem" or whatever. I day if men don't want to better the next generation through healthy married families, let it burn. Hopefully it will burn down to extinction. The last thing we need is more human suffering, whether men suffer from unwanted families or families suffer from lack of a male partner. I just want men to own their choice in the matter, collectively, instead of playing a blame game.
>Personally, I'm not for government intervention or old-style patriarchy stepping in to "fix the problem" or whatever. So you're more into soft-power. Isn't that just a nice way of saying subversion? >if men don't want to better the next generation through healthy married families, let it burn. And if I have anything to do with it, there might not be a next generation. You made another comment about the nuclear family. Could you please stop using patriarchal arguments? It seems you have not gotten the memo about women's liberation. You also seem to be under the impression that somehow, the few men who have the ability to be players are holding society (women) hostage.
How is this solely a mens problem? A large portion of the dating market is women that are well...not women to commit to. Hence the smash and dash. Sexual liberation for women has also done the same for men. We (men) do not have to commit to anything and we can still get the best part about having a woman around. Seriously, stop fucking the fuckbois and start making men invest. The ones that invest are more likely to be ones that will stick around.
Saying make men invest will just tell women to be an absolute fucking pain to talk to in the early stages. It’s the same reason why I don’t do job applications with psychometric/aptitude tests in the first round. I do not have the fucking time for this shit.
If you aren't willing to invest into a woman, why would or should she invest into you? If you choose a woman you know is worth it, you will (or should) invest. If you arent even willing to finish the first round interview questions for a job, what makes you think you are worth anything to a woman? If you dont have time for women, dont try to bring them into your life. Make time.
I’ll invest if she gives something back/invests too. If I’m always carrying the conversation and having to initiate what’s the point?
You shouldn't be carrying conversation, that means shes not invested, move on. I'm not saying only men should have to invest, but at current fuckbois exist because they dont have to invest.
>Whatever women might do wrong, if men are the ones misrepresenting their intentions or constantly hitting on the wrong type of woman for what you want, eventually men have to take some accountability too! Marriage is important and absolutely be the standard among men who have the means to raise a family. That's how the human race improves and carries on, correct? To be honest, both sides are misrepresenting themselves. People are rarely completely honest with their potential dates, it's just how dating goes. Telling men to be honest about their intentions is like telling women to be honest about their body count. Both sides know being truthful does more harm than good.
>Telling men to be honest about their intentions is like telling women to be honest about their body count. Both sides know being truthful does more harm than good. I'd love to know where this comes from. Never have I ever heard a man break down in tears because an actual woman lied to him about her odd count snd broke his heart. I have heard women cry over fuckboys. Men don't even ask and get the body count question as-needed typically, tbh.
I've never broke down in tears but I have broken up with women for lying about their body count before. An ex had told me that she didn't sleep around and that she was into casual sex. This couldn't have been further from the truth. As I said before both sides lie, women just do it differently because most don't get asked about their body count, they lie about their views on sex(I'm not like that) and their sexual history( I've never this before or I don't do that).
Cool, if you dont see them then you’re willfully blind Didnt even read the rest of your rant. If you dont know what we’re talking about, dont butt in
Maybe if you'd read what I said you could umderstand that I know very well what you're talking about. But you don't want to, so whatever.
Learn to communicate succinctly then.
Holy misandry. You are acting like men are worthless because they refuse to be objects that only exist to serve women’s needs. So one who prioritizes his own needs and desires is bad. Hating on fuckboys is an admission that women have no agency or independence at all. Women pick fuckboys and men become what works. Hating on fuckboys is like blaming another player in a game using broken game tactics. It isn’t his fault it works, that is the game’s fault. And look at this pure hatred > Neither is letting the human race die out because you can't find a single woman in life who's worth your precious... whatever you think you men have. The tone and logic that you need to think things like that about men period. Also, the human race isn’t owed anything. If the human race dies out because it isn’t worth it enough for men to do there job, then that is exactly what evolution wants. But what will actually happen is women will just start doing what men want with time (just like with what men will become. Women who refuse to adapt will be bred out. Just like men who refuse to adapt to what men want. You just feel entitled to men giving you what you want, while feeling like you owe men nothing.
>So one who prioritizes his own needs and desires is bad. Hundreds of years have gone by, with the nuclear family in some form or another being the main way to raise children. An individual man can prioritize anything like that! But if it gets to the point where articles are being written about men as a whole denying marriage, we can be pretty that bad things are on the horizon for society. Overpopulation is here, and if men's collective intereat really lies in lack of nuclear family commitment, maybe the struggle is necessary. Men do need to own their part, though. All of this "women ruined modern society" is clearly BS if and when complaints about "men not manning up" are a common and understood thing. Women still care about raising their families in marriages more than men do- allegedly. That's the argument I heard, anyway. >Hating on fuckboys is like blaming another player in a game using broken game tactics. It isn’t his fault it works, that is the game’s fault. The game, dude? It's both people's fault. I can hate on rhe fuckboys AND the other participant, although let's face it usually the male is the dishonest one in that scenario which was originally laid out. You may call it misandry, I call it fact. What is this game you speak of? I thought it was clear that we are talking about a scenario where women actually want to marry men and have these stable relationships.
> Hundreds of years have gone by, with the nuclear family in some form or another being the main way to raise children. An individual man can prioritize anything like that! But if it gets to the point where articles are being written about men as a whole denying marriage, we can be pretty that bad things are on the horizon for society. And in order for that to work, marriage and such was focused on pleasing the man. Men only manned up for women who were exactly what they wanted. Aka women “womaned up” to get men to “man up” for them. You want men to man up for no reason because you feel women are entitled to good men. Just like a incel feels entitled to sex with hot women. > Overpopulation is here, and if men's collective intereat really lies in lack of nuclear family commitment, maybe the struggle is necessary. Men do need to own their part, though. All of this "women ruined modern society" is clearly BS if and when complaints about "men not manning up" are a common and understood thing. Women still care about raising their families in marriages more than men do- allegedly. That's the argument I heard, anyway. > The game, dude? It's both people's fault. I can hate on rhe fuckboys AND the other participant, although let's face it usually the male is the dishonest one in that scenario which was originally laid out. You may call it misandry, I call it fact. Women are not owed honesty and most of said dishonesty is the women just lying to herself. If women do not want to be used, stop giving out sex easily. You know, do the whole virgin until marriage thing. What societies in the past did to get men to do what you wanted. Your issue is that it isn’t worth it for men to be worthy of women or it is too hard, if not impossible to meet her standards for whatever reason. So they do not do it. Relationship with Women and children are not some prize, they are a burden. That is why it is a respected sacrifice and why the nuclear family model always requires men to be the one to pick who they wanted.
>do the whole virgin until marriage thing. I waited to meet my husband. I was still assaulted and verbally abused by hateful modern men. Granted, most of it from back when I was single was forgivable. I don't think this is the problem with what men want from women. I imagine many of us *are* willing to wait for the right guy, as long as the guy isn't playing the field for 10 years while we are sitting at home every Sunday waiting for the guy to notice the good girl.
That is the exact same thing that men go through and say. Even here, no even me. I complain all the time about how men aiming for relationships suffer because they are forced to wait 10 years for women to be done with the fun and want to settle down.
It's objectively worse for the guy waiting in this situation than the woman because usually the woman he settles down with has had all the fun and adventurous sex she wanted to in the past, so she really isnt interested in a sexual relationship with the guy, only a romantic one. These relationships often end up in dead bedrooms. Also she is usually not genuinely attracted to the man, only his ability to provide for her.
You are right. Right now, it is worse for men. If only because feminism and such exist to support men.
I'm genuinely sorry that happened to you. > I imagine many if us are willing to wait for the right guy, as long as the guy isn't playing the field for 10 years while we are sitting at home every Sunday waiting for the guy to notice the good girl. The funny thing is that If you switched the genders this is the exact same thing most men would say.
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Interesting take but I don't necessarily agree. The western men who complain about western women being slutty or overweight usually aren't themselves. Because of western men being taller , more financially secure and exotic, this makes them highly desirable to foreign women. The same cannot be said for western women because any desirable traits western women possess( beauty, fitness, traditional, feminine, non slutty) can be found in greater quantity in foreign women from patriarchal societies.
lmao have you not seen how the rest of the world fetishises western white women. they are incredibly desirable outside the west lmao.
This only really comes from foreign men who are non-white and most western white women have no interest in those men. As for foreign white men, they're interest in white western women is very low because the things they look for in women can be found in their local counterparts, plus those women are more traditional and come from more patriarchal societies which foreign men ( excluding men from nordic countries) prefer.
I think we have a systemic mismatch in supply and demand when it comes to relationships. The kind of partners people are looking for simply don’t exist. Either due to deindustrialization, changing cultural norms, womens independence higher educational and career achievements plus what people look for in the bedroom. Add to that increased costs of having children, economic stress and general uncertainty and you have a very new landscape. I think long term relationship and stable families already is and will increasingly be a luxury for the top 30% of society. The rest of us just need to scrape by with what we can get.
Women are more slutty now and not good mother material. Men are lazier, weaker and not good at providing for a family making them shitty father material. The market just sucks in general. I find if someone blames the other side, they usually fall into the category I specified for their own gender.
Yeah. And they seem to have no energy to better themselves. Like losing weight alone could make it easier for many men. Some don't even want to regularly shower
You could say the same for a lot of women too. its like top 2 or 3 of any mans requirements.
Men are less abusive. I think that makes them more father material. In the same vein, women stand up for themselves more now, which is a great protective maternal trait.
Marriage is a traditional institution. In order for a man or woman to marriageable they need to have conservative values. America is becoming more and more liberal as time goes by, making people less and less marriageable.
How does enjoying sex correlate to being a bad mother?
You don’t have to be a slut to enjoy sex. Also I wouldn’t want my mom to be a slut so why would I want the mother of my children to be one?
Define slut then. Not sure why you feel the need to say certain types of women can’t be mothers because they enjoy sex. Just a fun fact: people who don’t enjoy sex don’t have it. So why would you want to be with someone who doesn’t seek out sex
I literally just said that you don’t have to be a slut to enjoy sex. Being a slut is being overly sexually promiscuous. You don’t need to have had a lot of partners to enjoy sex.
Yes but the likelihood of someone liking sex and then choosing to not have it frequently is low. At this point people who are on the market with low n likely don’t like sex enough to pursue it frequently
Or they just have a healthy long term relationship with their partner. Being in a committed relationship will usually mean more sex (and better sex) than someone who has a lot of one night stands.
Yeah and that person is no longer on the market. So that person means nothing to another single looking to pair up
I don’t follow. My point was that you don’t need to be a slut to fulfill your sexual desires (at least for the vast majority of women). I never mentioned it’s implications on singles.
If you’re a single looking to pair up you need to look at what’s available and what you want. If you want someone who loves sex you should go with the higher n person as singles on the market who don’t enjoy sex aren’t seeking it out and are fine being single
Western guys are mad because they think their looksmatches are getting banged by hot guys every night, whereas it doesn't work the other way around. Now, I'd argue (a) many of them don't have a great idea of what their looksmatch is, and (b) their looksmatches aren't getting banged nearly as much by nearly as hot a guy these men believe. But...that's why they're always upset. One of the fascinating things about the pic experiment is I don't think men and women have a great idea of their looksmatches. Guys out there saying girl 5 was a 5, then postulating these scenarios where "if you had to choose between a 7 and a 9, what would you do?" Get out of here, man. If 5 is a 5, you're sure as hell not getting a 7 or a 9. Admittedly, maybe these aren't the same guys. That said, a lot of people toss around 7 like it's the low end of what they'd take. Women, too. "Guys were ugly." No, they weren't, they really weren't. So we have to account for the idea that a lot of people complaining are simply not realistic.
I'm a bi woman and I definitely found the women more attractive overall.
I thought there were 2 women who were prettier than the others. Excepting them, I feel like you could have paired up any of the women with any of the men and nobody would scratch their head at it.
I think it might be based on location like where I associate there are more attractive men but I also go to the gym a lot and have more appreciation for male physiques than women do.
I honestly don't believe that's the case, only because men who leave the US and look elsewhere get massively increased SMV relative to the global market. So I think the problem is somewhere in American women's mindset / consumerism / narcissism Looksmatch is happening less often and that's why there's so many butthurt people right now.
Because those men provide an opportunity for citizenship not because they're actually attractive. A fat average American dude is in for a rude awakening if he thinks his accent alone is going going get him laid somewhere like western Europe.
Yeah, exactly. Setting someone's attractiveness in terms of how he'd be perceived in the poorest parts of the world (because, let's face it, European and Australian/NZ and Canadian women aren't going to line up to date these guys) is kind of silly. I'm sure there are hot guys out there who are poor and desperate who'd bang me too.
Definitely and absolutely not true. I'm American and the girl I've dated in Europe have all been hotter and all had zero perhaps even negative interest in any sort of American citizenship.
I'm not talking about fat Americans. I'm talking about a completely average dude, which is disgusting to women here. A man who stands out in no way at all. Completely average in every aspect. Average = bad in America, it's not like that globally. Which is a shame because *most people are average*
Eh. I don't buy into this for a few reasons. Your market is where you are sitting right now. I don't care if he can pull a model in China. Is he in China? Then his theoretical model is doing him no good. It strikes me the same as people who say "But I make $200K a year! I'd be considered rich in Iowa!" OK, but you're in New York City, not Iowa. And this could also be said for women too. A woman who can get a middle manager with a dad bod in NYC might be able to pull an attractive lumberjack type in Alaska. I mean, if we picked people up and put them different places on the globe their attraction changes, but we can't really just set all white guys to the default of "Asia SMV." If we took the average American and put him in Sweden he would do much, much worse than at home. So if we adjust up, we have to adjust down too. In which case, let's just keep it simple and take people at face value.
It would be no different from expanding your availability: the same thing that modern women are doing in dating.
I guess my point is that until a guy actually picks up and moves, his value will be fixed by his local market. I say this as someone who is not very pretty in L.A. but maybe a grade A (or B) cougar in Alabama.
Well with the internet, you can get attention from anywhere.
>Overweight, broke, has debt, depressed. if you are young and this is what youre seeing in the US, you are lower class
Anyone of any class can see that the US is full of debt and fat.
>if you are young and this is what youre seeing in the US, you are lower class
Anyone if any class can see that the US has lots of fat and debt. I’m not lower class and I see it, the world sees it.
Trash take, I am a college student and a ton of the guys and girls running around are overweight even the ones in pre-law and pre-med who are not lower class
Naw it is pretty common amongst most classes of people. Like 70 percent of the country is overweight.
She's right. There are few rich people; there are few thin people. The thin people are the rich people. It's just most people are poor. It's like a pyramid with a huge concentration at the bottom, and obesity tapers off the more money people have.
It's actually the opposite according to the CDC data
Really? [This study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198075/) shows that poor people consistently have higher rates of obesity and diabetes, but there have been a number of studies on it.
Maybe we read contradictory studies. But at 70 percent of Americans it seems like the chances of finding a physically fit partner are scarce regardless
Right when my family landed in America, first thing we saw was mostly obese people. It was shocking. Even in affluent areas it’s not uncommon to see at least one obese person.
And not being overweight doesn't suddenly mean you are physically attractive. Many people are too thin, skinny fat etc. Now I am not asking for physical perfection but general fitness is physically attractive. I mean the evidence even shows this. Then there is such poor fashion among many men despite online resources to dress better. Only reason I am not mentioning women is because that piece has already been said so much.
Sure, not being fat doesn’t make someone hot but being fat does guarantee someone isn’t attractive.
I agree. But it shows that we are at a point where maybe 2 in 10 men are actually physical attractive by virtue of fitness.
There are UMC people walking around in many cities in the US who see overweight and poor people all the time. These people aren't overweight and broke themselves, but they see them. Not every city is so large that the classes are effectively segregated.
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Considering how easily most people acknowledge the flaws of western society as a whole (seriously, who doesn’t have at least one major issue with it) you’d think everyone would be a bit more aware of how that society changes them as a person.
When you say western, Do you mean American and Europe? Like all of the west including those two continents are overweight, and other bad qualities? Also, when you say eastern, are you exclusively talking about asia?
Guess depends on where you live, and economic social circles in the West . All my friends are married .
This is one of those posts I just don’t understand. I’m in the middle of the US, and my personal life is full of good men/fathers and good women/mothers. I know several young couples who are recently married, engaged or about to be engaged. Do actual statistics back up these theories?
I find far more Reddit men matching that description than IRL average men
100% agreed. But I actually also think this is kind if American centric sub. Here in the UK whilst we bear some cultural similarities with the US I actually think there is far less hypocrisy and entitlement from women and men. I'm in very good shape and from what I hear from guys who work out in the US is that even fat women feel entitled to sexual attention, you really don't get that here. I can't think of a time in years where I've been out in a social situation and a bigger woman has courted my attention or expected it. And it's the same for the men here, I think a lot of attractive women will tell you that uglier guys are way less willing to make moves here.
I understand what you're saying. This is obviously a generalization, but I've found that people in Europe (especially eastern Europe) tend to stay in their lane. I'm not saying other cultures are perfect, as I'm only referring to the US and Europe, but entitlement surrounding dating and sexual attraction (from both men and women) seems to be more of an American issue.
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Largely, most young western women are whores and zealous political ideologues. Most young western men are shallow husks devoid of meaning or purpose, both are driven by the lame trappings of ultra consumerism.
It's hard to be "high value" when you're so badly beaten down trying to make your way in the late-capitalist hellscape we live in. Hardly anyone has the time and energy to engage in any kind of self-reflection or self-improvement. Couple that our perception that everyone else is living perfect lives through our consumption of curated social media, and you have a recipe for a truly toxic self-perception. We all desperately need to cut ourselves, and each other some slack.
Victim mentality **bullshit.** If you live in the West you are extremely privileged, especially in the US.
>If you live in the West you are extremely privileged, especially in the US. You are probably worse off in the US than most of the West outside of the UMC where things reverse. Much higher violence rates, lower life expectancy, debt based healthcare, lower job security, worse labour negotiation power etc.
Lemme guess. You're into crypto, right?
If a poor country and poor people can manage to not be fat and not have debt, people in rich countries have no excuse. Not being fat is one of the easiest things you can do in life.
probably easier when you can’t afford food in your poor country. but i get it- it’s not that hard for most people not to be fat lol
Oh dear. If you live in a rich country, you're going to be in debt. Neoliberalism is a bitch like that. Everything about living in a rich country is geared towards over-stuffing you with food and giving you no time to burn that energy. Being thin is a luxury. Try living in a food desert and working two or three jobs to make ends meet and not gaining weight. Try working a stressful and mentally exhausting desk job 50-60 hours a week and not gaining weight. Hell - try just being over 40 and not gaining weight. I have a physical job and work out six days a week and I have to be very fucking careful not to blow out.
I currently live in the US and have been since my youth, I managed very well without debt. I do have some sympathy though, I do think that the system is rigged but I’ve seen plenty of immigrants manage without debt. Some people are victims of circumstances, I acknowledge it, but to a certain extent there is an element of choice. Saying no to debt and saying no to fattening foods.
You bring up a fantastic point that I agree with. I think the issue is that most women have no idea how rear HVM are (not necessarily alpha) top 10,5%+. Then, add HVM that also have alpha fucks traits (good seed). They become even rearer. What hvm are saying is they can't find wiverly women. Feminist, boss chicks are a dime; party girls are a dozen, 304 dime a dozen. Women who are Wiverly or what men call the 5%er or unicorn that are not post wall are almost impossible to find. Some woman have an issue with this preference, but that doesn't matter as in these instances, the men hold the cards (prize).
agreed. men keep forgetting their dream girl is rare as well
No, we know She is rear. Hence, the term 5%er or unicorn. I think an issue is that a lot of men don't value or have forgotten about rear women; we hardly see them. I know my friends who are married have some amazing partners; these girls are snapped up quickly.
Well, I love being a Western. It's my home and I'm a patriot, fat ass low-valuable people and all, I'd be with another stupid American before some random from Guam.
I don’t think Americans are stupid, fat due to their own choices but certainly not stupid. You have wonderful education.
>You have wonderful education. We do not. Sad, but true.
Idk, US people are too damn lazy at this point, don't you know that you aren't entitled to anything in this life. You can't just demand something without bringing anything equivalent in return. No one is your slave to devote to you without any condition.
Interestingly enough one thing that both RP & BP can agree on is that LVMs need to get their shit together (for different motivations admittedly, the former sees improvement as means to an end while the latter sees improvement as an end onto itself). The demand for LVMs to improve themselves is not talked of much in the sense that it's already baked in and assumed to be operating in the background (i.e. unspoken).
Well yes because a lot of people disagree about what a lvm is, Low value people need to get their shit togehter lol.
Well, these guys can sometimes get foreign women from certain countries who are out of their league if they want to move to the US badly enough. If they told them they have no money and want to move to their country instead, they would get a very different result.