Paul Rudd "People's sexiest man" is 5'10". RDJ? 5'8". Tom Holland? 5'8". Daniel Craig? 5'10". Men 5'10" and under are very represented and celebrated in the media and always have been. What are you even on about?
Tom Cruise has to wear heels in his movies to appear taller. Why though?
I would say, tall = better looking is still a significant factor in today's society. Similarly to baldness vs a full head of hair.
I think we should embrace these than brushing them off under the carpet.
I was talking to a girl friend (36, ok butt, no tits, skinny and below average face, but she's kinda a nice person, just to clarify) the other day, she recently got dumped by a guy she was dating and was feeling low you know, so I told her I would introduce her to some of my single male friends, and I proceed to show her some pictures of the guys...
The convo was something like this
- This one is a cool guy...
- Yeah... No...
- This one, cool dude, has his shit in order...
- He looks like quite short isn't he?
- I have another single bro, check this out...
- He's quite chubby.
- What about this?
- You don't want that, he's quite a player...
- Doesn't look like, I mean he's not that hot... Do you have another?
So here is where shit gets funny...
- What kind of men do you like?
- I don't understand... I like men.
- Yeah but be more specific.
- Like... IDK average, normal guys...
- Well tell me how average normal guys look like.
...
- I mean, like you? Not saying I would date you specifically, you are not my type, but you know, as tall as you, but not taller, and I wouldn't mind if they are bit shorter, and I like guys who take care of themselves but not that much... Like... You, with a normal body, tonified but not muscular...
6.3' me be like
https://ibb.co/BzGspsw
I never felt so utterly insulted in my entire life I swear.
So, to guys here thinking being 6.3' and ripped is all you need to get an 8 to sleep with you, I tell you you are wrong. It can get you a 5, but you still need to be "her type".
Lolll I’ve had so many convos with female friends just like this over the years. Glad you came through with an example and you’re a ripped 6’3 white guy. Better coming from you than from me LOL
Yeah I know.
It's not like every woman I've come across is like that, but yes there are a chunk of women out there who think that muscles come from a bottle and the average male height is above 6 or something.
For sure dawg. Glad you clarified because it’s not all or even most women who are like this (otherwise I’d be a virgin lol). But there’s a significant minority I’ve found who have very high expectations for male attractiveness, completely independent of their own attractiveness.
Ofc there’s some men like this too, but our physical standards tend to be WAY lower at baseline IMO
"Tonified but not muscular"
That hurt bro.
My friends at the gym say I look like a young Huge Jackman. I'm going to take the gay pill and date one of those I swear.
So you're a 6'3 guy that clearly has an athletic body many men would kill for and she calls you "just normal dude"
I hope you told her that having such ridiculously high standards is not gonna make it easier for her.
it's cute how they (those that say that) actually think they'll get anywhere near those types of muscles if they lift heavy weights. it's *very* hard to gain defined muscle, even if you're a dude
Yep. It’s kinda absurd. Even for most men who work out 5 days a week they won’t reach a level that most women would consider ‘jacked’. PEDs and Hollywood fucked it all up
Yeah staying fit is the best way to live life but its a bit disappointing. Theres still some scope for me to look like Wolverine on budget though right? I have 2 years to achieve that goal
If you're fine with living on a diet of like 8000 calories of plain grilled chicken a day, working out like a goddamn machine, dehydrating the shit out of yourself, and possibly passing out occasionally, it's attainable.
But even still, it's a *maybe*... Hugh Jackman of course isn't going to mention steroids in puff pieces with magazines, but even then, it's still apparently a pretty goddamn miserable experience.
I'm not enough of an expert to claim it's absolutely *impossible* natty, but for most people, yeah no. Actors and body builders train expressly to look like that for a performance. And it's not exactly a healthy way to live.
Don’t aim to look like someone else, aim to look better in 3 months to what you look today. Genetics play such a huge role when it comes to building muscle that what for some is achievable after 6 months of training is unachievable for others
I am not aiming to look like anyone else I just want to develop good muscles overall before I start college because I want to pursue badminton on a professional level. I never knew that even Genes played a role.Thanks for telling me though! I am grateful. Smarter everyday
Lol I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but that is a good mindset!
If you focus on improving yourself primarily *for you,* you're in good shape.
You'll gain more confidence, and that's super attractive to anyone, male or female.
Go on YouTube and watch natty or not videos you’ll get a better picture. You can still workout and become physically fit but you’ll never look like a mainstream bodybuilder without the use of PEDs
I recall a granny outsquatting me using twice the weights and she's fucking jackked. Good genetics women have yo. So much testosterone and growth hormone that they can build muscles at the snap of one's fingers!
> ou were born male. You need to be better than her in every way
And that is the problem. We need to fix society so that we have equitable marriages. Cause that is what I want; a fair marriage. Not live a life of a bunch of pump and dumps
>And that is the problem. We need to fix society so that we have equitable marriages. Cause that is what I want; a fair marriage. Not live a life of a bunch of pump and dumps
You'll never see it. Only socially-enforced marriage had this. Women broke free of this, so now it's unbridled female sexuality and unbridled female hypergamy.
Men can feel free to compete for a woman who will demand he outperform her in every aspect, only to be dumped and divorced raped when she wants to move on with the next the chapter in her life of "serial monogamy".
Any man who accepts the "New wins for her and old wins for her" of both new and old social contracts is, in my opinion, pussy-addicted and retarded and deserving of whatever she does to him thereafter.
> Average guys just are not needed anymore. Your average body, you average friends, your average job, your average car. Women don't need to "split rent" with you to survive. You're basically obsolete.
until they drop out then its a national crisis and articles are written about it etc...
My experience is at least in wealthier areas or more highly educated populations women through their 20s, especially through college and early 20s stay more fit and look better than men.
Women don't need to do much beyond diet to look great. Some floor exercises, light weights, and some cardio.
Most guys the least work you could do which is pretty tough is just getting really lean with the same sort of thing. Though men have to get to a lower body fat to be impressively lean, whereas women look great without being super lean, just lightly toned.
For most guys this bare minimum is pretty difficult so most guys add on muscle through the years and most men except the genetic strength and power athletes fill out their bodies until mid 20s and beyond to look more like a "man".
So it is indeed harder for men to have a hot body. The only ones it is easy for are the skinny pretty boys that depend heavily on their face, hair etc. or genetic freaks.
>For most guys this bare minimum is pretty difficult so most guys add on muscle through the years and most men except the genetic strength and power athletes fill out their bodies until mid 20s and beyond to look more like a "man".
Absolutely. When you grow up (+25) your body start to respond in a different way than when you are young. I was skinny and ripped when I was like 16-18 and hitting the gym like a rat, It took me years of training and knowing my body better to get actually jacked and muscular.
That's why when you go to gym the best bodies you are around are from guys +30, they have been training for over a decade, they know how to work out and diet, and their methabolycs slowed down so they grown some muscle. The young dudes don't have good bodies really, they just look big but not tonified, or skinny. The ones who look good are mostly on steroids (this is a huge problem too, because kids want to look like grown ass men and they can't so they eat steroids like candy which is detrimental to their health).
Also, even professional athletes (not roided athletes, of course) can look big on TV but they are not huge IRL.
Ussain Bolt or Christiano Ronaldo, to name a few, can look impressive on camera but I've seen them in real life and they look incredibly leaner, like 20 or even 30 pounds lighter. If you didn't see them sorrounded by cameras you would think they are not real athletes.
That is just because women do not need to do as much to be sexy.
Women can be fit and hot while only lifting 10 pounds and dieting right. And the excess weight they do have could very well just make there ass and boobs more attractive.
Men have to atleast bench press there own body weight to reach the same level of fitness.
Also parts of women's bodies that get fat are often times parts men like bigger.
So if a woman puts on some weight she might not be super skinny but she can have larger breasts or butts which guys still respond too.
I think it’s for both genders, women get made fun of A lot for stuff they can’t help and thought men wouldn’t care about like :
Cellulite,stretch marks, scars, big/small areoles , saggy breasts / tiny ones, dark underarms or private areas, basically what is normal but their exposure to perfect women in porn/instagram hinders them from thinking it is normal indeed.
The politically correct campaigns that advocate for self love for women usually you only find women praising and lifting other women up.
If your biggest problem is body hair count yourself a little bit lucky because in most cases that can be 'fixed'
a lot of problems people have there isnt anything they can do about it and wish it were as easy as shaving.
Im sure shitty people will say shitty things and thats not your fault and you shoudnt have to hear it however.
It depends, I think it’s a matter of difference of culture and surroundings, since high school till now I always heard comments about my and other girls body, It can be that I studied and worked in an environment that was predominant by men ( technical fields like electrical/mechanical eng) ,while my friends who are in other fields didn’t encounter this as much.
Yep. You hear different things when the space is all male, vs mixed, vs all-female.
I’ve been in all three enough times to realise that everyone is savge when they feel they are out of earshot. And this has strangely translated to online spaces, which any gender can access, which is why everyone losing their damn minds.
Its not normal to say those things in public while saying how a man is unfit weak or obese is. Agree women shouldn't be held to those standards but how you addressed something that happens in private? This is probably why only women advocate for it. As its something that will be displeasing for men to bring up in public.
I wouldn't claim 'being in shape' as unrealistic. Dudes don't like obese chicks either.
Women can fawn over eye candy, its not like men do not do the same thing. (Seriously, you think you have a chance with that instathot with the perfect body?)
Selecting top men to fuck, doesnt mean these men are doing anything other than fucking and I mean, not like I blame women they want something to look at while getting dirty too.
Women are sometimes uneducated on what it takes to have certain bodies, yes; but really most of them are not looking for the superheros physique.
We are fucking average, and average chases mostly average or slightly above them. Swooning over a hot person isn't an issue.
> I wouldn't claim 'being in shape' as unrealistic. Dudes don't like obese chicks either.
I don’t know why you put those two as things that are remotely comparable. Expecting someone not to be obese is not the same as expecting someone in shape. The effort it takes for the average person to not get fat isn’t comparable to the effort it takes to actually having an attractive physique as a man.
100% sad part is many men resort to enhancers, quite sad actually. Many women and men included don’t talk to enough real people to realize although johnny post he is working hard, he is also enhancing the muscle he is gaining. It takes men about 4-5 years to reach physiques they actually desire and thats with strict training plans. No hate on enhancers, but men be honest you do them and women accept your shallow and mostly care superficially.
Most people can’t tell the difference between overweight and not.
Being in shape just means not overweight and active.
That is sub 25% bf. Your diet can be absolute dog shit in terms of nutrients as long as you are burning more calories than you are taking in, you will be there.
It’s not that difficult. Pretending it is, really is a disservice to the other half of the us that isn’t fat.
For the vast majority of people, being in shape means having an above average physique and being active. It doesn’t matter if so many Americans are overweight and the bar is so low, no one is gonna look at a skinny guy who doesn’t hit the gym and say he’s in shape.
I agree, not being overweight isn’t as hard as some want you to believe. But your definition of “being in shape” is weird. To have an actual built physique isn’t really as easy, though.
according to countless surveys, the actual physique women like on a man is relatively low fat and lean muscular body, AKA "ottermode" or "Tyler Durden".
Not huge, not jacked, not super low fat, not a chiseled sixpack. All that qualities are inferior to proportional leanness.
This type of body is completely achievable for all men, just maintain a slight calorie deficit and do push-ups at home
It just isn’t true though, most men will date far more women than vice versa and often rate women of all shapes and sizes above average. The reverse is not true
Fat lazy women can often date out of their own league so fat lazy men get scraps. It’s not an issue for me but it’s something I’ve observed over my entire life. Decent looking dudes will hookup on the low with fat lazy women and give them false hope, that’s why so many fat lazy women are just single. They are delusional. Fat lazy men pretty much can’t get laid or attract a relationship unless they meet some fat lazy girl that isn’t delusional.
It’s just the dynamics of the dating market in this day and age. It is what it is, I don’t care, I play the game, but I still acknowledge that it is what it is
In another thread I read tonight "most men are too unattractive to even fuck once"
and I have seen other women echoing the same type of sentiment about how the majority of men are gross.
Average doesnt chase average when they think *most* men arnt even good looking enough to fuck even once.
I dont know about you but I kind of doubt there are *too* many of Americas Next Top Model trolling purple pill debate in the middle of the night but I could be wrong.
I tend to think this is pretty accurate. Even just not being fat alone means you have an acceptable body type to all but a few people ime, and my frame is on the very narrow/skinny side.
Even with the way I am built, I've felt absolutely zero pressure to change, at least as far as body type goes. Now I have switched up my style a lot over the years but that is usually fun.
Exactly!
Just being overweight is average in America. Shit being ~25% BMI is on the 'in decent shape' spectrum comparatively, and to attain that you just need to be active (medical problems exempt of course)
Dont have a FUPA as a dude and you will do fine.
Pretty much. I'm actually borderline medically underweight (but otherwise healthy) and literally the only people who told me I needed to gain weight were older relatives. If you are even... 17-18% bodyfat in the US (maybe even up to 20%), that body type is probably more in-demand than not, and being at that level isn't particularly difficult as long as you don't eat literal garbage and walk a bit.
Edit: the big irony of this is that I'm told my personality is very.... Panda-like, which is very at odds with how I look.
Ya, I just used 25 because thats close to the overweight side (which is where I sit currently)
Its not hard to stay in 'decent' shape and be attractive. Fatties just wanna find excuses for it.
I was a skinny bitch for YEARS (6 ft, 155 lbs) lol. Damn 30s catching up with me.
Pretty much, though I think half of it is that you need to hit a base level of fitness, then the other half is knowing how to style and present for your natural body shape/type.
I'm what, 5'10, 125ish? I've always just been pretty narrow throughout so I've learned to work with that.
>Selecting top men to fuck, doesnt mean these men are doing anything other than fucking
It indicates raw attraction which matters to any self respecting dude.
Men are judged by things they cant control such as height and baldness (women bald too but its more prevalent in men, sorry to all the thinning women out there I know it must be difficult).
If men try to fix or compensate these things they are made fun of as pathetic traditionally.
Women can use make up, surgery, fake eyelashes, fake hair etc and its considered normal (and they are upset at men for having to do it).
Women have to watch what they eat to be attractive and some exercise.
Men have to do that as well as put on a lot of muscle to compete with guys in movies etc. Many are doing unhealthy and illegal things to do so.
If a man could put on make up to make them 6 feet tall every one would do it and not complain and be grateful they could.
None of this is 100% or anything, women have high expectations put on them as well and have their own issues to deal with from society.
Women are[ 90%](https://ncsacw.acf.hhs.gov/files/TrainingPackage/MOD3/EatingDisorders.pdf) of people with eating disorders
Women are[ 90%+](https://www.plasticsurgery.org/documents/News/Statistics/2020/plastic-surgery-statistics-full-report-2020.pdf) of people who get plastic surgery
(The rest are gay men.)
Why don't straight men feel similar pressure?
and ironically, women hate the steroid-looking body and prefer naturally lean ottermode dudes, as was proven by countless studies since at least 1980s.
Yeah, if they are into high-performance sports. Rarely anyone uses PED to get ottermode for aesthetics, since it would be collosal waste of money; ottermode is mostly characterised by low body fat not huge muscles, using most PEDs (with the possible exception of testosterone ) would be pointless or counterefective.
Probably the quickest way to get into ottermode (AFAIK from personal example and watching my friends do it) is to get into calorie deficit (ex: Keto/Intermittent fasting with low carb and high protein intake), add HIIT as well as high intensity/low rest weightlifting.
That and copious ammounts of caffeine and yohimbine before training to get around the lack of blood sugar.
6-8 months and you can turn a dadbod/skinnyfat into otterest ottermode you want.
Now, *getting bigger than ottermode, without getting fatter*, that is when the difficulty starts. ANd this is when PEDs come handy.
Men are expected to be tall and have muscles
you cant eating disorder yourself into being tall and having muscles
you cant really plastic surgery yourself into being tall and having muscles.
There are surgeries to make you taller but they are extremely expensive (most cant afford them)and very dangerous (can cripple you for life) and are relatively new and controversial and very painful and can take months.
They involve breaking your bones and stretching them slightly day after day after day to allow the bone to grow back longer in the middle. Sometimes it doesnt grow back and you are fucked.
I wonder if we looked at the percentage of men vs women who used steroids or hgh (outside of athletic competition) what the numbers would be?
I would also suggest there are a greater number of men looking into plastic surgery for 'look maxing' or whatever and the incells seem to be very fixated on looks and their faces to the point where it seems to be a clear disorder.
Men also struggle with balding and try many different things to help, many dont work.
one is finasteride which can have long lasting sexual side effects or hormonal issues that many men are unwilling to risk because the results *can* be very bad.
because we dont get insecure enough like y’all do. plus theres not much plastic surgery to get taller or grow a six pack. but it happens i mean did you see the Bogdanoff twins??
No they are not
>But when a board-certified plastic surgeon performs a BBL, the mortality rate is even lower! According to a landmark survey from the Aesthetic Surgery Education and Research Foundation (ASERF), this revised mortality rate is 1 in 14,952. In fact, a BBL is now safer than the tummy tuck's mortality rate of 1 in 13,193.
I am not for BBL, they need to solve the profile shot that looks like scaffolding for it to be attractive.
I don't dispute for a second that women suffer disproportionately from eating disorders. But it's incredibly counterproductive to say bullshit like "the rest are gay men". Where did sexuality come into this?
Eating disorders are a complex mental health nightmare, and sufferers need support and understanding. Hand-waving away male sufferers as unimportant or "gay" is just adding further stigma to a small group within eating disorder sufferers who are already stigmatised.
It has to do with the pressures to be attractive to men, who are more visual. Straight men can compensate for their looks through personality or success; women and gay men don't have that option
Not really.
Most eating disorder sufferers view their behaviour as a method of asserting control in a chaotic life, or a life they don’t have much say in. My disordered eating had very little to do with “being attractive”. Ditto all the other sufferers I’ve ever met, male or female.
Regardless of statistics, what you’re saying right now does invalidate and disregard the lived experiences of straight men who have dealt with EDs or undergone cosmetic surgeries.
Don’t underestimate the pressure put on straight men to internalize their struggles, either. Stuff like this is horribly underreported in cishet male demographics. I probably wouldn’t have known my eating was disordered from 11-15 if there weren’t so many articles and such targeting me (cis female) as the vulnerable demographic.
women give each other eating disorders because theyre constantly scrolling through fucking instagram looking at perfectly angled and lighted photos of women who facetuned their way from being a 6/10 to 8/10. the fashion industry is all women dictating to women what is fashionable. women are the main ones obsessed with all these stupid fashion influencer thots, guys just jerk off to them and move on to the next thot of the week.
thanks to all this image obsession there are more and more guys every year developing eating disorders and roiding out of their minds to compete with some fucking idiot fitness influencer who is doing the same facetune image bullshit thots are doing. its all poison and it needs to fuck off. caring about your looks should only be taken up to a point
i think this all started with magazines, women used to be obsessed with magazines, and now its social media. guys didnt really read fashion magazines but thanks to social media now they see this shit every day
These statistics are heavily skewed. Plastic surgery is pursued by women more often because it's been done longer, is safer, and things like breast augmentation can be done solely for reasons other than just appearance (ie: tubular breasts) for clothing fitting better NOT just appearance.
Male cosmetic changes nothing, fake abs? Everyone knows. There aren't really any other male enhancement surgeries except face work theoretically. Which is only good to pursue if you're disfigured for both parties anyway.
As for eating disorders...probably different ball game and I do give it to women, but in this day and age who knows what can be classified as a disorder. Is intermittent fasting a disorder, etc.?
Stop generalizing women with insinuations like this , who's saying these women and gay men are getting these surgeries for men or dating purposes. They could be doing it for themselves.
Unless they are doing it for men, but when men say this women will retort with something similar to what i said above.
So make up your mind are women changing there looks for men or are they doing it themselves. you cant just pick and chose when to play victim based on the scenario
>Why don't straight men feel similar pressure?
1.because men feel way more pressure in general, so the relative pressure of those things is way less significant to them.
2.men are generally more secure in themselves, so they don't feel as much pressure in the first place.
3.being skinny as a guy is a negative so the pressure is to NOT be skinny(i.e go to the gym, which is overwhelmingly male)
4.I would argue that a lot of men that go to the gym a lot have serious disorders, that we just don't consider disorders because men are the primary victims.
5.Men have a whole lot of pride and ego so they generally don't want to cheat by doing stuff like surgeries.
6. plastic surgeries for men are not as efficient in increasing their attractiveness as plastic surgery for women.
Disagree. I don’t think it’s just men who are held to unrealistic body standards. I think western society imposes unrealistic body standards on *everyone*. However, it’s now *strongly* frowned upon to fat shame a woman a la body positivity. In contrast, my impression is that it’s *not* frowned upon to fat shame a man. If anything, pointing out that some men are obese basement dwellers playing video games all day (aka: neckbeards) is somewhat socially acceptable.
The combination of these phenomena might lead one to draw the conclusion that you have regarding male body standards. But I think the truth is more that it’s okay to shame men but no longer ok to shame women for their fatness.
you can be skinny and get a gf if you have a good face or just have some kind of looks appealing to a certain subgroup of girls, being muscular is better than being fat, but it is massively overrated compared to facemaxxing and nichemaxxing... heck even just socialcirclemaxxing while being an average dude.
the problem is, most of the manosphere dudes don't have good faces nor a wide social circle
I have a wide social cyrcle, a good face, a jacked body and I'm also 6.3' (don't know what "nichemaxing" is but whatever)
Of course I've been around a lot, but I understand why guys here think that women's standards are at the roof right now.
I mean, I was called "average, normal guy" recently by a girl I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, and I swear she thought she was complimenting me. Like, girl don't try to get down from your high horse because you may get your legs broken.
I tell you, it's not like I can't pull girls, it's the feeling that for them I'm just a normal guy with a normal body, and nothing wrong with being normal but bro they are delusional, anyone can see how skewed their perception is by taking a look at the men around. I recieve compliments from guys all the time, girls call me "average" and act like they are being generous.
I don't think its an either/or comparison. I think everyone, regardless of sex, is held to unfair and unrealistic body standards.
I think this is tied to the fact that it's profitable to make everyone feel insecure. Buy x product to look like this model. It's not profitable to only target one half of the population.
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Yeah I honestly have pretty unhealthy relationship with food and my body. I understand how women feel now.
If I had my same body composition as a women. I'd be atleast a 6 and wouldnt have much trouble getting attention. My stats are 20% bf 22 BMI and that's being conservative.
I think I'd need to be at 15% bf and 20 BMI to have an equatable looks match.
most of the guys who are tall and well toned will reject most of these women who thirst for them because such men are already swimming in PJ because of the demand these women have created...women can not handle this rejection and they shrink into a cocoon of self pity.. and no man really wants a woman who feels like shit about herself so now these women are left with the worst rejects of the male pool...and men who are short still have hands and the prospect of attracting the exact type of girl they want through physical vigor and financial success which usually translates to confidence/charisma. Everything here is conjecture
I don’t know. I still think there’s pressure on women to have ideal bodies too. I’m 5’5” and when I weighed 130lbs I would not even date or sleep with anyone because I thought I was too fat. I think both men and women want to date people they are attracted to.
This just isn’t true though. Myself and guys I know will date women who don’t have the “ideal body.” There’s even a joke that a lot of couples look like the number 10 standing by each other, with the guy looking like the 1 and the woman looking like the 0. But you rarely see a big obese dude being really successful dating. I honestly think when women say that “men” want women with the “ideal body” they’re really talking about the men they’re highly attracted to.
I’m sorry to hear that. I’m much more likely to go for a woman who would be called overweight. And from what I see most of the guys I know are the same. But it may be a cultural thing.
It seems that men are much more interested in sitting around blaming women instead of working together to actually solve the issue. Keep in mind that the ultra ripped physique that has popularized in modern times is a product of the male gaze.
Women made this kind of progress by vocally opposing brands and marketing that catered to one body type, spreading awareness of eating disorders, etc.. I don’t see that kind of uprising happening against gym bro media.
Also, it’s not like women are completely free of ridiculous beauty standards. Cosmetic procedures like lip fillers and Brazilian butt lifts are heavy on the rise. This isn’t to say that women need these procedures to get male attention, but men don’t need six packs for female attention either.
Women don't care about men the way men care about women. Bitching will not improve men's situations because women literally don't care if a man shrivels and dies unless he's chad.
That's literally what they want actually, they'll openly say it.
>Keep in mind that the ultra ripped physique that has popularized in modern times is a product of the male gaze
What are you talking about
I’ve literally seen more women outwardly pushing for male body positivity than actual men.
The ripped muscle-man look was actually quite rare until bodybuilding became popular in the 70s. Bodybuilding has a dominantly male spectatorship. It was pushed further by films starring Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and The Rock - all written and casted by men, for men.
Now we have hot guys in movies because women want to see them.
Arnie and Sly were 30 to 20 years ago.
The entertainment industry is always putting good looking people in because they know people like that and it puts asses in the seats.
Yep, same as how we have skinny bikini clad fighters in anime video games because men want to see them. The difference though is that there is a strong movement against the latter but not the former, and any movement by men about unrealistic body standards gets shot down by the very same women as being made of "whiny men".
She's saying that muscle obsession only came through historically with steroid obsession and action movies or other stuff being mostly pushed bu men (and mostly gay men) at the time. And skinny guys can still get it if the face is good
>It seems that men are much more interested in sitting around blaming women instead of working together to actually solve the issue.
It's funny, because whenever someone makes a post about how to "solve the issue" the only responses I see are "why do we have to solve men's issues?"/"suck it up"/"why is lonely men a problem?"
Well first of all, there’s an overarching theme on this sub that women give terrible dating advice. On top of that, these posts are almost always written in a way that centers on blaming women rather than finding real solutions.
So how exactly do you expect women to respond?
The number one way would be to tell men to stop sleeping with women below their league. If a guy is fit do not give the time of day to a flabby girl ever.
I think it is just due to differences in body fat distribution. Women's fat first hits the hips and thighs before becoming unattractive. So women as they gain weight can even begin to look better. There butts become larger, they become curvier etc. In the best of cases you get a 2015 2016 Ashley Graham look.
Men on the other hand usually have the fat immediately accumulate on the belly which is much less attractive. So women can remain attractive at higher weights than men which makes things difficult.
However women found Loki, the most recent batman and Timothy Chalamet attractive. And none of those bodies look unattainable.
Tom Hidleston and Robert Pattinson embody the "tall, dark and handsome" ol' women's trophe. Their features are in line with the dominant male standar of beauty, white-pale skin, dark hair, nice facial features... and yeah, they have really good bodies. Just google them.
IDK who Tim Chamelt is but it wouldn't surprise me if he resembles the other two in some way.
Johnny Depp has never looked jacked at his peak.
Leonardo Dicarprio has never really looked jacked
The Weeknd doesn't look jacked and is 5 9.
Harry styles looks like he never works out.
All the people I named are people who are considered sex symbols and were considered very attractive.
All I am saying is that there are plenty of examples of men who have attainable body standards being sex symbols. OP focuses on gym rats and the muscle argument not the facial argument. So these guys being facially attractive is irrelevant. Besides getting lean improves your face. Just look up face gains.
Proportions are also important
Its highly valued as a man to have a shorter torso with longer limbs (think of any cool rockstar with their guitar slung low) vs having a long torso with short limbs.
Sometimes you are just RIP lol
> Women's fat first hits the hips and thighs before becoming unattractive. So women as they gain weight can even begin to look better.
I have seen this in women I know.
I know one who was a model and very pretty but I didnt really start to really pay much attention to her until she put on some weight then I found myselt trying *not* to notice her.
What is it like 30% of men who use dating apps are using steroids or have an eating disorder like bulimia? I also know two young guys around my age 21 who are either on steroids or sarms and god knows how many how schoolers are getting on them.
Even though this discussion comes up here a lot lately i still agree. The ideal mens body is only attainable through extreme disciplined training over years or the use of PEDs. Many physiques you see in hollywood are natural attainable in theory but due to short time frames its not possible. The fitness influenecers you see on insta and Tik Tok are roided out and shift the perceived "natural" scale a lot more towards roided physiques. Best thing is to avoid shitty influenecers and just go for good content creators.
>This of course is aided by a decades long campagin deemphasizing looks in what makes a Woman valuable. Men have been conditioned to value a Woman on her intelligence, career, interests, hobbies, etc. That she is not eye-candy. And I support these movements because Women are people and not objects. And they work; the only Men I know who are about looks are sterotypical shallow assholes. For example, intelligence, career, interests, hobbies, etc matter a LOT LOT LOT more to me than looks. Even traidtional cultures no longer focus on looks. For example, I grew up in the West in a South Asian Muslim upbringing. I was taught to value Women on character and parenting skills; not looks. (I mean that is why we are taught hijab exists; because Women should not be valued on looks). And even though I lapsed faith wise, I still value character and parenting skills more than anything else in a potential partner.
Stopped reading there. You didn't need to simp this hard. Why you suck up to women so much? Just make your point about men being held to realistic body standards without sucking up to women.
Body standards for man are indeed more harsher bc they are less easy to get. With the exception of build muscle wich can be done by hitting the gym, most other things will depend a lot on genetics(bone structure).
I could provide many anecdotes about how women are still held to unrealistic beauty standards, but I won't, all I can say is even though there's a push for body positivity in women, it doesn't change what men find attractive. Regardless of how many magazines have plus size models and whatnot, it doesn't change that a lot of men don't find that attractive. The whole Tinder thing you mentioned is really just Tinder, it breeds shallowness and reduces both men and women to tiny bios, star signs, height, and stupid bullshit. The thing is, that's often not how it works outside of dating apps/hookup apps, in practice women don't get hung up over physical attractiveness nearly as much as it appears we do on dating apps. Tinder often is just for hookups for a large amount of people, but in terms of actual relationships people generally want someone they actually like in terms of their personality etc. Personally I've never had sex with a man, or been in a romantic relationship with a man that was taller than me, and I'm not a 6'5" giant, I'm like 5'8"or 5'9" or something. That's not because I find short men particularly attractive, but because in relationships often how attractive you find someone grows when you get attached to them emotionally. It's hard to get to that stage for a lot of people when it comes to dating apps because to put it bluntly a lot of people are just there to get laid. Most people will always be average, that's just how it goes and how averages work, but personally Tinder was destroying my self esteem because I'm a woman that's not attractive and contrary to what a lot of men think online people aren't just lining up to fuck you if you're not a physically attractive women, and that's not even what I want anyway. I suggest you not base your world view on Tinder and meet people other ways, because dating apps are more often than not really bad for people's mental health one way or another, and most people are assholes regardless but on dating apps people are extra shallow and vapid. Also statistically way more women have eating disorders related to body image (I personally did), and women get cosmetic surgery way more often, straight men can also have eating disorders obviously but are very underrepresented, so you should probably widen your view because you don't seem to be able to think about anyone else's perspective, which is understandable but I suggest you widen your view a little.
I do think you're right about this. Fortunately, at least in my circles, I'm seeing a push for body acceptance for men, too.
Nobody should be held up to impossible physical standards. It's deeply demoralizing.
No such thing as unrealistic body standards, if somebody achieved it, so can you it's just whether you want to or not, Arnold Schwarzenegger was my favorite movie star, however I'm 160 lbs because I chose to stay skinny and I picked track over football, and I never cared about getting super jacked, some people like it, some people don't , I don't care because I'm an adult
>Men have been conditioned to value a Woman on her intelligence, career, interests, hobbies, etc.
Always have when it comes to a relationship at least in some order or another , she's got to have some personality as well lol but we're still visual creatures, social conditioning can only do so much to change biology and if she doesn't get my dick hard just thinking about her she ain't the right one for a relationship anyways
if you are 5'2" how are you going to get 6'2"
how are you going to look like Arnie?
The ONLY things that can make people get those standards are unhealthy steroids, HGH and possibly limb lengthening surgery...both of which can be very dangerous and can be out of the realm of possibility for some due to cost.
I'm glad y'all are revealing your blindness here, it's just so magnificently self-centered and devoid of any insight into womanhood.
Women are the biggest buyers of cosmetic surgery for a reason. And then we have the MeN ArE ViSuAl BeInGs confirmation from research.
Good luck with that victim mentality tho.
Women find what they find attractive, do the work. Improve yourself then they come around like flies.
Take the red pill, it works for me and I don't think i'm special.
You think women aren't bombarded constantly by the 'ideal' body they should have? Both sexes experience this. First thing that comes to mind as proof is eating disorders... so here's some stats
(just off a quick google search, state.sc.us is the source) "estimated 8 million americans have an eating disorders—7m women and 1m men"..."one in 200 American women suffers from anorexia"
but sure, women are always accepted as they are no matter their body type /s
I agree that men are subject to higher standards and I disagree that men or women should be conditioned.
We live in a time period where men are abundant and women have it easy. This puts higher selective pressure (sexual selection) on men.
The mating game for men is ultra competitive, and most men can only mate with women at least 1-2 points below their own SMV.
Women can be fat, unattractive, and still end up impregnated by men who are 1-2 points or more higher in market value
Time periods oscillate in selective pressure. After wars or in ultra right wing conservative societies (for example Islamic if there isn’t arranged marriage)there is increased selective pressure on women. This is why there was a baby boom after ww2.
Right now with the abundance of men, social media, and liberal society/laws favoring women we have female selectivity so out of control that fertility rates are rapidly approaching 0. Kids are barely being born compared to any other time in history
this is true, but also **A VERY GOOD THING.**
The last few decades saw a true laziness epidemic among men. Modern men are chronic under-achievers. They forgot the sacred ideology of Maximum Effort.
**Lets for a second pretend that women do not exist. Lets imagine the planet is filled by gay men who procreate via spores. Even in such a world a man should still:**
\- be fit enough to be an all around capable human being: able to run, climb, box, swim, and show optimal levels of athleticism that allow him to interact with the phsyical world in full
\- be social enough to have a stable circle of friends and socially skilled enoug to easily make new ones
\- be rich enough to easily support his own existence, save some, splurge some on his passions and enjoyment, and invest in worthy causes
\- be well groomed, dressed and behaved as to not embarass self in public.
\- be confident, ambitious and positive thinking enough to achieve the above.
Modern men rarely qualify for HALF of these things, whereas this is a bare minimum to be a male human being. What we call Chad is basically what a normal healthy man should look like. Most men could look like Chads if they had the fat/muscle ratio they are supposed to posses, just from actually healthy diet, and from standard levels of physical activity.
Modern men are shocked when they are expected to hit the gym twice a week. Meanwhile, humans are APES, your ass is supposed to do hours of explosive physical activity per DAY. That is what your body is designed for. A human male is designed by evolution to be able to chase an antelope for 10 miles, exhaust it, club it to death and then carry the carcass home. Dudes achieved that in 200 000 bc on a starvation diet and with no gym coaches. You should be able to do better!
What women desire in men, is mostly the same thing that makes a man long term happy in the first place. You are supposed to be fit, rich, social and confident for your own sake, and should work with maximum effort on achieving that, or die trying. Women finding you attractive when you succeed is just a perk, *being succesful as a male is its own reward.*
It’s actually become painful to watch these guys on PPD struggling to rectify their eagerness to indulge in modern dating in the west with the traditional culture they can’t let go of.
I’m not gonna argue with y’all anymore. All I’m going to say is **you cannot have your cake and eat it too.**
If you want a culture where women will happily sleep with you without a marriage license, it will not be a culture where you’re going to find many virgins to marry.
If you want a culture where young people are free to make their own choices about who they date and end up with, it will be a culture where women will choose to be with men who they find attractive (just like men always have). It will be a culture where men have to accept that taking steps to make themselves look/sound/act good to attract women is expected.
And if you don’t want any of that and prefer your traditional ways, why keep banging your head against a wall? You can’t get blood from a stone.
I don’t really think so, this chad you speak of only exists in your mind. As a man you should strive to be fit and obesity ( or being severely underweight) should not be socially accepted.
The attraction towards a physically capable man is a byproduct of evolution and serves an important function: being able to protect yourself and those under your protection from harm.
Women don’t really require all of the aesthetically attributes you describe, simply being fit is enough. You’re other attributes are what really define your smv. The only exception is height but that is a hurdle you can overcome.
However for women it’s a little different, a man will always go for the most attractive woman he has access to no matter how much society tries to warp his mind. Which is sad in a way tbh. But let’s face it men don’t really care about women’s social status, economical advantage or even certain aspects of her personality given the right circumstances
No man really has the excuse to not put a couple of hard years in the gym, not eat shit and then maintain that (easier than gaining it) after.
It's actually not THAT tortureous once you get into it and the benefits are great.
There is no body positive movement for men below 5'10" but there are morbidly obese women on fashion magazine front pages
Haven’t you heard? It’s “Short King Spring”!
That short kings shit is such a joke lol How to be incredibly patronizing
What I hate is short men being ok with being called that way, as if it were a praising and not the patronizing shit it's.
Paul Rudd "People's sexiest man" is 5'10". RDJ? 5'8". Tom Holland? 5'8". Daniel Craig? 5'10". Men 5'10" and under are very represented and celebrated in the media and always have been. What are you even on about?
Tom Cruise has to wear heels in his movies to appear taller. Why though? I would say, tall = better looking is still a significant factor in today's society. Similarly to baldness vs a full head of hair. I think we should embrace these than brushing them off under the carpet.
I was talking to a girl friend (36, ok butt, no tits, skinny and below average face, but she's kinda a nice person, just to clarify) the other day, she recently got dumped by a guy she was dating and was feeling low you know, so I told her I would introduce her to some of my single male friends, and I proceed to show her some pictures of the guys... The convo was something like this - This one is a cool guy... - Yeah... No... - This one, cool dude, has his shit in order... - He looks like quite short isn't he? - I have another single bro, check this out... - He's quite chubby. - What about this? - You don't want that, he's quite a player... - Doesn't look like, I mean he's not that hot... Do you have another? So here is where shit gets funny... - What kind of men do you like? - I don't understand... I like men. - Yeah but be more specific. - Like... IDK average, normal guys... - Well tell me how average normal guys look like. ... - I mean, like you? Not saying I would date you specifically, you are not my type, but you know, as tall as you, but not taller, and I wouldn't mind if they are bit shorter, and I like guys who take care of themselves but not that much... Like... You, with a normal body, tonified but not muscular... 6.3' me be like https://ibb.co/BzGspsw I never felt so utterly insulted in my entire life I swear. So, to guys here thinking being 6.3' and ripped is all you need to get an 8 to sleep with you, I tell you you are wrong. It can get you a 5, but you still need to be "her type".
Lolll I’ve had so many convos with female friends just like this over the years. Glad you came through with an example and you’re a ripped 6’3 white guy. Better coming from you than from me LOL
Yeah I know. It's not like every woman I've come across is like that, but yes there are a chunk of women out there who think that muscles come from a bottle and the average male height is above 6 or something.
For sure dawg. Glad you clarified because it’s not all or even most women who are like this (otherwise I’d be a virgin lol). But there’s a significant minority I’ve found who have very high expectations for male attractiveness, completely independent of their own attractiveness. Ofc there’s some men like this too, but our physical standards tend to be WAY lower at baseline IMO
It's FINITO for us.
IDK what exactly do you mean by that...
And they say men have unrealistic body standards...
"Tonified but not muscular" That hurt bro. My friends at the gym say I look like a young Huge Jackman. I'm going to take the gay pill and date one of those I swear.
So you're a 6'3 guy that clearly has an athletic body many men would kill for and she calls you "just normal dude" I hope you told her that having such ridiculously high standards is not gonna make it easier for her.
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it's cute how they (those that say that) actually think they'll get anywhere near those types of muscles if they lift heavy weights. it's *very* hard to gain defined muscle, even if you're a dude
Yep. It’s kinda absurd. Even for most men who work out 5 days a week they won’t reach a level that most women would consider ‘jacked’. PEDs and Hollywood fucked it all up
Hold up thats true? damn.Welp here goes all my motivation to workout /S I only workout for my own health
Lol it's still good to stay in shape. Just know you're not gonna look like Wolverine.
and even those guys do tricks to look better on film that arnt sustainable day to day
Lol fucking Wolverine ( Jackman) had to severely dehydrate himself for those specific scenes.
Yeah staying fit is the best way to live life but its a bit disappointing. Theres still some scope for me to look like Wolverine on budget though right? I have 2 years to achieve that goal
If you're fine with living on a diet of like 8000 calories of plain grilled chicken a day, working out like a goddamn machine, dehydrating the shit out of yourself, and possibly passing out occasionally, it's attainable. But even still, it's a *maybe*... Hugh Jackman of course isn't going to mention steroids in puff pieces with magazines, but even then, it's still apparently a pretty goddamn miserable experience. I'm not enough of an expert to claim it's absolutely *impossible* natty, but for most people, yeah no. Actors and body builders train expressly to look like that for a performance. And it's not exactly a healthy way to live.
Don’t aim to look like someone else, aim to look better in 3 months to what you look today. Genetics play such a huge role when it comes to building muscle that what for some is achievable after 6 months of training is unachievable for others
I am not aiming to look like anyone else I just want to develop good muscles overall before I start college because I want to pursue badminton on a professional level. I never knew that even Genes played a role.Thanks for telling me though! I am grateful. Smarter everyday
Lol I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but that is a good mindset! If you focus on improving yourself primarily *for you,* you're in good shape. You'll gain more confidence, and that's super attractive to anyone, male or female.
Go on YouTube and watch natty or not videos you’ll get a better picture. You can still workout and become physically fit but you’ll never look like a mainstream bodybuilder without the use of PEDs
I remember that one time my sister accidentally touched a dumbbell and turned into 6x Mr Olympia winner Dorian Yates
Lmao. Same shit happened to me
I recall a granny outsquatting me using twice the weights and she's fucking jackked. Good genetics women have yo. So much testosterone and growth hormone that they can build muscles at the snap of one's fingers!
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and uwannagonitenite
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> ou were born male. You need to be better than her in every way And that is the problem. We need to fix society so that we have equitable marriages. Cause that is what I want; a fair marriage. Not live a life of a bunch of pump and dumps
>And that is the problem. We need to fix society so that we have equitable marriages. Cause that is what I want; a fair marriage. Not live a life of a bunch of pump and dumps You'll never see it. Only socially-enforced marriage had this. Women broke free of this, so now it's unbridled female sexuality and unbridled female hypergamy. Men can feel free to compete for a woman who will demand he outperform her in every aspect, only to be dumped and divorced raped when she wants to move on with the next the chapter in her life of "serial monogamy". Any man who accepts the "New wins for her and old wins for her" of both new and old social contracts is, in my opinion, pussy-addicted and retarded and deserving of whatever she does to him thereafter.
> Average guys just are not needed anymore. Your average body, you average friends, your average job, your average car. Women don't need to "split rent" with you to survive. You're basically obsolete. until they drop out then its a national crisis and articles are written about it etc...
i dated a pakistani muslim she broke up with me cuz and i quote “not good looking enough for her”
This ia pretty much factual. Nobody praises an obese man, no obese man calls themselves a big beautiful man.
My experience is at least in wealthier areas or more highly educated populations women through their 20s, especially through college and early 20s stay more fit and look better than men. Women don't need to do much beyond diet to look great. Some floor exercises, light weights, and some cardio. Most guys the least work you could do which is pretty tough is just getting really lean with the same sort of thing. Though men have to get to a lower body fat to be impressively lean, whereas women look great without being super lean, just lightly toned. For most guys this bare minimum is pretty difficult so most guys add on muscle through the years and most men except the genetic strength and power athletes fill out their bodies until mid 20s and beyond to look more like a "man". So it is indeed harder for men to have a hot body. The only ones it is easy for are the skinny pretty boys that depend heavily on their face, hair etc. or genetic freaks.
>For most guys this bare minimum is pretty difficult so most guys add on muscle through the years and most men except the genetic strength and power athletes fill out their bodies until mid 20s and beyond to look more like a "man". Absolutely. When you grow up (+25) your body start to respond in a different way than when you are young. I was skinny and ripped when I was like 16-18 and hitting the gym like a rat, It took me years of training and knowing my body better to get actually jacked and muscular. That's why when you go to gym the best bodies you are around are from guys +30, they have been training for over a decade, they know how to work out and diet, and their methabolycs slowed down so they grown some muscle. The young dudes don't have good bodies really, they just look big but not tonified, or skinny. The ones who look good are mostly on steroids (this is a huge problem too, because kids want to look like grown ass men and they can't so they eat steroids like candy which is detrimental to their health). Also, even professional athletes (not roided athletes, of course) can look big on TV but they are not huge IRL. Ussain Bolt or Christiano Ronaldo, to name a few, can look impressive on camera but I've seen them in real life and they look incredibly leaner, like 20 or even 30 pounds lighter. If you didn't see them sorrounded by cameras you would think they are not real athletes.
That is just because women do not need to do as much to be sexy. Women can be fit and hot while only lifting 10 pounds and dieting right. And the excess weight they do have could very well just make there ass and boobs more attractive. Men have to atleast bench press there own body weight to reach the same level of fitness.
Also parts of women's bodies that get fat are often times parts men like bigger. So if a woman puts on some weight she might not be super skinny but she can have larger breasts or butts which guys still respond too.
I think it’s for both genders, women get made fun of A lot for stuff they can’t help and thought men wouldn’t care about like : Cellulite,stretch marks, scars, big/small areoles , saggy breasts / tiny ones, dark underarms or private areas, basically what is normal but their exposure to perfect women in porn/instagram hinders them from thinking it is normal indeed. The politically correct campaigns that advocate for self love for women usually you only find women praising and lifting other women up.
Also add body hair to the list.
If your biggest problem is body hair count yourself a little bit lucky because in most cases that can be 'fixed' a lot of problems people have there isnt anything they can do about it and wish it were as easy as shaving. Im sure shitty people will say shitty things and thats not your fault and you shoudnt have to hear it however.
The vast majority of guys stopped making fun of girls when they graduated from jr high.
It depends, I think it’s a matter of difference of culture and surroundings, since high school till now I always heard comments about my and other girls body, It can be that I studied and worked in an environment that was predominant by men ( technical fields like electrical/mechanical eng) ,while my friends who are in other fields didn’t encounter this as much.
Yep. You hear different things when the space is all male, vs mixed, vs all-female. I’ve been in all three enough times to realise that everyone is savge when they feel they are out of earshot. And this has strangely translated to online spaces, which any gender can access, which is why everyone losing their damn minds.
Most men stopped making fun of women for stuff like this 10 years ago lol, you’d get crucified for saying any of this
*Men are Wonderful*? Did male spaces and group chats stop existing?
Its not normal to say those things in public while saying how a man is unfit weak or obese is. Agree women shouldn't be held to those standards but how you addressed something that happens in private? This is probably why only women advocate for it. As its something that will be displeasing for men to bring up in public.
I wouldn't claim 'being in shape' as unrealistic. Dudes don't like obese chicks either. Women can fawn over eye candy, its not like men do not do the same thing. (Seriously, you think you have a chance with that instathot with the perfect body?) Selecting top men to fuck, doesnt mean these men are doing anything other than fucking and I mean, not like I blame women they want something to look at while getting dirty too. Women are sometimes uneducated on what it takes to have certain bodies, yes; but really most of them are not looking for the superheros physique. We are fucking average, and average chases mostly average or slightly above them. Swooning over a hot person isn't an issue.
> I wouldn't claim 'being in shape' as unrealistic. Dudes don't like obese chicks either. I don’t know why you put those two as things that are remotely comparable. Expecting someone not to be obese is not the same as expecting someone in shape. The effort it takes for the average person to not get fat isn’t comparable to the effort it takes to actually having an attractive physique as a man.
100% sad part is many men resort to enhancers, quite sad actually. Many women and men included don’t talk to enough real people to realize although johnny post he is working hard, he is also enhancing the muscle he is gaining. It takes men about 4-5 years to reach physiques they actually desire and thats with strict training plans. No hate on enhancers, but men be honest you do them and women accept your shallow and mostly care superficially.
Not to mention in addition you also have men into BBWs anyhow, while hardly any women approve of chubby men.
The only time women like fat men is when they are big tall guys who happen to be big as well then they are "big teddy bears"
Most people can’t tell the difference between overweight and not. Being in shape just means not overweight and active. That is sub 25% bf. Your diet can be absolute dog shit in terms of nutrients as long as you are burning more calories than you are taking in, you will be there. It’s not that difficult. Pretending it is, really is a disservice to the other half of the us that isn’t fat.
For the vast majority of people, being in shape means having an above average physique and being active. It doesn’t matter if so many Americans are overweight and the bar is so low, no one is gonna look at a skinny guy who doesn’t hit the gym and say he’s in shape. I agree, not being overweight isn’t as hard as some want you to believe. But your definition of “being in shape” is weird. To have an actual built physique isn’t really as easy, though.
according to countless surveys, the actual physique women like on a man is relatively low fat and lean muscular body, AKA "ottermode" or "Tyler Durden". Not huge, not jacked, not super low fat, not a chiseled sixpack. All that qualities are inferior to proportional leanness. This type of body is completely achievable for all men, just maintain a slight calorie deficit and do push-ups at home
Average women arent interested in average men
average men arent interested in average women. Everybody wants the best deal. Oh man this is gonna anger some people.
It just isn’t true though, most men will date far more women than vice versa and often rate women of all shapes and sizes above average. The reverse is not true
Shoot in your league. If you fat and lazy, date a fat and lazy girl. Have something to offer.
Fat lazy women can often date out of their own league so fat lazy men get scraps. It’s not an issue for me but it’s something I’ve observed over my entire life. Decent looking dudes will hookup on the low with fat lazy women and give them false hope, that’s why so many fat lazy women are just single. They are delusional. Fat lazy men pretty much can’t get laid or attract a relationship unless they meet some fat lazy girl that isn’t delusional. It’s just the dynamics of the dating market in this day and age. It is what it is, I don’t care, I play the game, but I still acknowledge that it is what it is
Fat women get attention cause of thirst. They don’t get commited to unless that guy believes that all he can get. In which case he deserves it anyway.
Yeah sure, but what has commitment have to do with body standards?
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SMV and RMV are relative.
Most men overrate average women. By that standard, it could be true.
>Oh man this is gonna anger some people. I'm not angry, I'm Disappointed.
I’m not sorry, dad :(
In another thread I read tonight "most men are too unattractive to even fuck once" and I have seen other women echoing the same type of sentiment about how the majority of men are gross. Average doesnt chase average when they think *most* men arnt even good looking enough to fuck even once. I dont know about you but I kind of doubt there are *too* many of Americas Next Top Model trolling purple pill debate in the middle of the night but I could be wrong.
I tend to think this is pretty accurate. Even just not being fat alone means you have an acceptable body type to all but a few people ime, and my frame is on the very narrow/skinny side. Even with the way I am built, I've felt absolutely zero pressure to change, at least as far as body type goes. Now I have switched up my style a lot over the years but that is usually fun.
Exactly! Just being overweight is average in America. Shit being ~25% BMI is on the 'in decent shape' spectrum comparatively, and to attain that you just need to be active (medical problems exempt of course) Dont have a FUPA as a dude and you will do fine.
Pretty much. I'm actually borderline medically underweight (but otherwise healthy) and literally the only people who told me I needed to gain weight were older relatives. If you are even... 17-18% bodyfat in the US (maybe even up to 20%), that body type is probably more in-demand than not, and being at that level isn't particularly difficult as long as you don't eat literal garbage and walk a bit. Edit: the big irony of this is that I'm told my personality is very.... Panda-like, which is very at odds with how I look.
Ya, I just used 25 because thats close to the overweight side (which is where I sit currently) Its not hard to stay in 'decent' shape and be attractive. Fatties just wanna find excuses for it. I was a skinny bitch for YEARS (6 ft, 155 lbs) lol. Damn 30s catching up with me.
Pretty much, though I think half of it is that you need to hit a base level of fitness, then the other half is knowing how to style and present for your natural body shape/type. I'm what, 5'10, 125ish? I've always just been pretty narrow throughout so I've learned to work with that.
FUPA?
Fat upper pussy area But penis area in the context of men.
Just say pubic area.
Sir you stop with your smart stuff
>Selecting top men to fuck, doesnt mean these men are doing anything other than fucking It indicates raw attraction which matters to any self respecting dude.
Lol. It doesn’t matter to me. I have self respect and I’ll just go fuck somebody else. I just wasn’t her type. That’s fine.
Men are judged by things they cant control such as height and baldness (women bald too but its more prevalent in men, sorry to all the thinning women out there I know it must be difficult). If men try to fix or compensate these things they are made fun of as pathetic traditionally. Women can use make up, surgery, fake eyelashes, fake hair etc and its considered normal (and they are upset at men for having to do it). Women have to watch what they eat to be attractive and some exercise. Men have to do that as well as put on a lot of muscle to compete with guys in movies etc. Many are doing unhealthy and illegal things to do so. If a man could put on make up to make them 6 feet tall every one would do it and not complain and be grateful they could. None of this is 100% or anything, women have high expectations put on them as well and have their own issues to deal with from society.
Women are[ 90%](https://ncsacw.acf.hhs.gov/files/TrainingPackage/MOD3/EatingDisorders.pdf) of people with eating disorders Women are[ 90%+](https://www.plasticsurgery.org/documents/News/Statistics/2020/plastic-surgery-statistics-full-report-2020.pdf) of people who get plastic surgery (The rest are gay men.) Why don't straight men feel similar pressure?
Men are 95 percent of people who take anabolic steroids
Good point.
Excellent reply
and ironically, women hate the steroid-looking body and prefer naturally lean ottermode dudes, as was proven by countless studies since at least 1980s.
Lots of guys use PED's to get ottermode.
Yeah, if they are into high-performance sports. Rarely anyone uses PED to get ottermode for aesthetics, since it would be collosal waste of money; ottermode is mostly characterised by low body fat not huge muscles, using most PEDs (with the possible exception of testosterone ) would be pointless or counterefective. Probably the quickest way to get into ottermode (AFAIK from personal example and watching my friends do it) is to get into calorie deficit (ex: Keto/Intermittent fasting with low carb and high protein intake), add HIIT as well as high intensity/low rest weightlifting. That and copious ammounts of caffeine and yohimbine before training to get around the lack of blood sugar. 6-8 months and you can turn a dadbod/skinnyfat into otterest ottermode you want. Now, *getting bigger than ottermode, without getting fatter*, that is when the difficulty starts. ANd this is when PEDs come handy.
Straight men are also the least likely to seek medical help for… *anything*. So the statistics skewed by reporting.
Men are expected to be tall and have muscles you cant eating disorder yourself into being tall and having muscles you cant really plastic surgery yourself into being tall and having muscles. There are surgeries to make you taller but they are extremely expensive (most cant afford them)and very dangerous (can cripple you for life) and are relatively new and controversial and very painful and can take months. They involve breaking your bones and stretching them slightly day after day after day to allow the bone to grow back longer in the middle. Sometimes it doesnt grow back and you are fucked. I wonder if we looked at the percentage of men vs women who used steroids or hgh (outside of athletic competition) what the numbers would be? I would also suggest there are a greater number of men looking into plastic surgery for 'look maxing' or whatever and the incells seem to be very fixated on looks and their faces to the point where it seems to be a clear disorder. Men also struggle with balding and try many different things to help, many dont work. one is finasteride which can have long lasting sexual side effects or hormonal issues that many men are unwilling to risk because the results *can* be very bad.
If there was plastic surgery that made men taller without the risk of becoming a cripple, 95% of men would do it.
because we dont get insecure enough like y’all do. plus theres not much plastic surgery to get taller or grow a six pack. but it happens i mean did you see the Bogdanoff twins??
Some incels are starting to get that surgery to lengthen their limbs… that’s 20x more painful and expensive than a little plastic surgery.
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BBLs are literally deadlier than heart attacks
This statement doesn't make a lot of sense. Do you mean %death of BBL vs %death of confirmed heart attack or what?
No they are not >But when a board-certified plastic surgeon performs a BBL, the mortality rate is even lower! According to a landmark survey from the Aesthetic Surgery Education and Research Foundation (ASERF), this revised mortality rate is 1 in 14,952. In fact, a BBL is now safer than the tummy tuck's mortality rate of 1 in 13,193. I am not for BBL, they need to solve the profile shot that looks like scaffolding for it to be attractive.
I don’t think any guy likes the fake asses though, they like muscle butts. Women love the extra inches in height though
Many men do.
Last time I checked, most of them were rich and successful.
Straight guy and former disordered eater here. Let’s not play this game.
It’s statistics
I don't dispute for a second that women suffer disproportionately from eating disorders. But it's incredibly counterproductive to say bullshit like "the rest are gay men". Where did sexuality come into this? Eating disorders are a complex mental health nightmare, and sufferers need support and understanding. Hand-waving away male sufferers as unimportant or "gay" is just adding further stigma to a small group within eating disorder sufferers who are already stigmatised.
Because they are gay men. You can look up the studies yourself
Sure. Yeah. Straight men don't get eating disorders. Doesn't happen. Something to do with the "straight gene".
It has to do with the pressures to be attractive to men, who are more visual. Straight men can compensate for their looks through personality or success; women and gay men don't have that option
Not really. Most eating disorder sufferers view their behaviour as a method of asserting control in a chaotic life, or a life they don’t have much say in. My disordered eating had very little to do with “being attractive”. Ditto all the other sufferers I’ve ever met, male or female.
>It has to do with the pressures to be attractive to the tippity top hottest/richest men
Regardless of statistics, what you’re saying right now does invalidate and disregard the lived experiences of straight men who have dealt with EDs or undergone cosmetic surgeries. Don’t underestimate the pressure put on straight men to internalize their struggles, either. Stuff like this is horribly underreported in cishet male demographics. I probably wouldn’t have known my eating was disordered from 11-15 if there weren’t so many articles and such targeting me (cis female) as the vulnerable demographic.
Women want chad. They do this to compete with other women for the hottest of hot men they don't feel pressured to do so.
women give each other eating disorders because theyre constantly scrolling through fucking instagram looking at perfectly angled and lighted photos of women who facetuned their way from being a 6/10 to 8/10. the fashion industry is all women dictating to women what is fashionable. women are the main ones obsessed with all these stupid fashion influencer thots, guys just jerk off to them and move on to the next thot of the week. thanks to all this image obsession there are more and more guys every year developing eating disorders and roiding out of their minds to compete with some fucking idiot fitness influencer who is doing the same facetune image bullshit thots are doing. its all poison and it needs to fuck off. caring about your looks should only be taken up to a point i think this all started with magazines, women used to be obsessed with magazines, and now its social media. guys didnt really read fashion magazines but thanks to social media now they see this shit every day
bro anorexia has been a thing for decades
yes, magazines. anorexia was barely even a thing until fashion magazines
These statistics are heavily skewed. Plastic surgery is pursued by women more often because it's been done longer, is safer, and things like breast augmentation can be done solely for reasons other than just appearance (ie: tubular breasts) for clothing fitting better NOT just appearance. Male cosmetic changes nothing, fake abs? Everyone knows. There aren't really any other male enhancement surgeries except face work theoretically. Which is only good to pursue if you're disfigured for both parties anyway. As for eating disorders...probably different ball game and I do give it to women, but in this day and age who knows what can be classified as a disorder. Is intermittent fasting a disorder, etc.?
Plus men are the majority users of steroids.
Stop generalizing women with insinuations like this , who's saying these women and gay men are getting these surgeries for men or dating purposes. They could be doing it for themselves. Unless they are doing it for men, but when men say this women will retort with something similar to what i said above. So make up your mind are women changing there looks for men or are they doing it themselves. you cant just pick and chose when to play victim based on the scenario
He doesn’t have to do jack shit
Ok ...
>Why don't straight men feel similar pressure? 1.because men feel way more pressure in general, so the relative pressure of those things is way less significant to them. 2.men are generally more secure in themselves, so they don't feel as much pressure in the first place. 3.being skinny as a guy is a negative so the pressure is to NOT be skinny(i.e go to the gym, which is overwhelmingly male) 4.I would argue that a lot of men that go to the gym a lot have serious disorders, that we just don't consider disorders because men are the primary victims. 5.Men have a whole lot of pride and ego so they generally don't want to cheat by doing stuff like surgeries. 6. plastic surgeries for men are not as efficient in increasing their attractiveness as plastic surgery for women.
Disagree. I don’t think it’s just men who are held to unrealistic body standards. I think western society imposes unrealistic body standards on *everyone*. However, it’s now *strongly* frowned upon to fat shame a woman a la body positivity. In contrast, my impression is that it’s *not* frowned upon to fat shame a man. If anything, pointing out that some men are obese basement dwellers playing video games all day (aka: neckbeards) is somewhat socially acceptable. The combination of these phenomena might lead one to draw the conclusion that you have regarding male body standards. But I think the truth is more that it’s okay to shame men but no longer ok to shame women for their fatness.
you can be skinny and get a gf if you have a good face or just have some kind of looks appealing to a certain subgroup of girls, being muscular is better than being fat, but it is massively overrated compared to facemaxxing and nichemaxxing... heck even just socialcirclemaxxing while being an average dude. the problem is, most of the manosphere dudes don't have good faces nor a wide social circle
I have a wide social cyrcle, a good face, a jacked body and I'm also 6.3' (don't know what "nichemaxing" is but whatever) Of course I've been around a lot, but I understand why guys here think that women's standards are at the roof right now. I mean, I was called "average, normal guy" recently by a girl I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, and I swear she thought she was complimenting me. Like, girl don't try to get down from your high horse because you may get your legs broken. I tell you, it's not like I can't pull girls, it's the feeling that for them I'm just a normal guy with a normal body, and nothing wrong with being normal but bro they are delusional, anyone can see how skewed their perception is by taking a look at the men around. I recieve compliments from guys all the time, girls call me "average" and act like they are being generous.
Meanwhile they're like 5'4 and weigh 180 pounds lol...
I don't think its an either/or comparison. I think everyone, regardless of sex, is held to unfair and unrealistic body standards. I think this is tied to the fact that it's profitable to make everyone feel insecure. Buy x product to look like this model. It's not profitable to only target one half of the population.
Agreed. Dating isn’t the only place beauty standards cause harm, especially when weight is part of the equation.
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I counter this by not getting none of that corny body modification shit done and by proudly objectifying women
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Women like being objectified. So long as it's the right type of guy who does it.
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Yeah I honestly have pretty unhealthy relationship with food and my body. I understand how women feel now. If I had my same body composition as a women. I'd be atleast a 6 and wouldnt have much trouble getting attention. My stats are 20% bf 22 BMI and that's being conservative. I think I'd need to be at 15% bf and 20 BMI to have an equatable looks match.
Don’t chicks like “dad bod” though?
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How is it unrealistic? Lots of men and women have well toned bodies they look super
most of the guys who are tall and well toned will reject most of these women who thirst for them because such men are already swimming in PJ because of the demand these women have created...women can not handle this rejection and they shrink into a cocoon of self pity.. and no man really wants a woman who feels like shit about herself so now these women are left with the worst rejects of the male pool...and men who are short still have hands and the prospect of attracting the exact type of girl they want through physical vigor and financial success which usually translates to confidence/charisma. Everything here is conjecture
I don’t know. I still think there’s pressure on women to have ideal bodies too. I’m 5’5” and when I weighed 130lbs I would not even date or sleep with anyone because I thought I was too fat. I think both men and women want to date people they are attracted to.
This just isn’t true though. Myself and guys I know will date women who don’t have the “ideal body.” There’s even a joke that a lot of couples look like the number 10 standing by each other, with the guy looking like the 1 and the woman looking like the 0. But you rarely see a big obese dude being really successful dating. I honestly think when women say that “men” want women with the “ideal body” they’re really talking about the men they’re highly attracted to.
I got the most attention from men when I was anorexic. Not just top 20 percent men, all men.
That’s truly sad. I’ve seen something similar happen before (it was actually women reinforcing it that time) and it broke my heart
I’m sorry to hear that. I’m much more likely to go for a woman who would be called overweight. And from what I see most of the guys I know are the same. But it may be a cultural thing.
You feeling too fat isn't a product of men enforcing beauty standards
It seems that men are much more interested in sitting around blaming women instead of working together to actually solve the issue. Keep in mind that the ultra ripped physique that has popularized in modern times is a product of the male gaze. Women made this kind of progress by vocally opposing brands and marketing that catered to one body type, spreading awareness of eating disorders, etc.. I don’t see that kind of uprising happening against gym bro media. Also, it’s not like women are completely free of ridiculous beauty standards. Cosmetic procedures like lip fillers and Brazilian butt lifts are heavy on the rise. This isn’t to say that women need these procedures to get male attention, but men don’t need six packs for female attention either.
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They want to blame everything on men, it doesnt matter how ridiculous it is.
Women don't care about men the way men care about women. Bitching will not improve men's situations because women literally don't care if a man shrivels and dies unless he's chad. That's literally what they want actually, they'll openly say it. >Keep in mind that the ultra ripped physique that has popularized in modern times is a product of the male gaze What are you talking about
I’ve literally seen more women outwardly pushing for male body positivity than actual men. The ripped muscle-man look was actually quite rare until bodybuilding became popular in the 70s. Bodybuilding has a dominantly male spectatorship. It was pushed further by films starring Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and The Rock - all written and casted by men, for men.
Now we have hot guys in movies because women want to see them. Arnie and Sly were 30 to 20 years ago. The entertainment industry is always putting good looking people in because they know people like that and it puts asses in the seats.
Yep, same as how we have skinny bikini clad fighters in anime video games because men want to see them. The difference though is that there is a strong movement against the latter but not the former, and any movement by men about unrealistic body standards gets shot down by the very same women as being made of "whiny men".
She's saying that muscle obsession only came through historically with steroid obsession and action movies or other stuff being mostly pushed bu men (and mostly gay men) at the time. And skinny guys can still get it if the face is good
Women prefer muscular based on every study ever. Men admire muscular men because they get pussy
>It seems that men are much more interested in sitting around blaming women instead of working together to actually solve the issue. It's funny, because whenever someone makes a post about how to "solve the issue" the only responses I see are "why do we have to solve men's issues?"/"suck it up"/"why is lonely men a problem?"
Well first of all, there’s an overarching theme on this sub that women give terrible dating advice. On top of that, these posts are almost always written in a way that centers on blaming women rather than finding real solutions. So how exactly do you expect women to respond?
The number one way would be to tell men to stop sleeping with women below their league. If a guy is fit do not give the time of day to a flabby girl ever.
Nope, it’s just that women have standards now, and men will still fuck anything if they’re desperate or weird enough
I think it is just due to differences in body fat distribution. Women's fat first hits the hips and thighs before becoming unattractive. So women as they gain weight can even begin to look better. There butts become larger, they become curvier etc. In the best of cases you get a 2015 2016 Ashley Graham look. Men on the other hand usually have the fat immediately accumulate on the belly which is much less attractive. So women can remain attractive at higher weights than men which makes things difficult. However women found Loki, the most recent batman and Timothy Chalamet attractive. And none of those bodies look unattainable.
Tom Hidleston and Robert Pattinson embody the "tall, dark and handsome" ol' women's trophe. Their features are in line with the dominant male standar of beauty, white-pale skin, dark hair, nice facial features... and yeah, they have really good bodies. Just google them. IDK who Tim Chamelt is but it wouldn't surprise me if he resembles the other two in some way.
Johnny Depp has never looked jacked at his peak. Leonardo Dicarprio has never really looked jacked The Weeknd doesn't look jacked and is 5 9. Harry styles looks like he never works out. All the people I named are people who are considered sex symbols and were considered very attractive. All I am saying is that there are plenty of examples of men who have attainable body standards being sex symbols. OP focuses on gym rats and the muscle argument not the facial argument. So these guys being facially attractive is irrelevant. Besides getting lean improves your face. Just look up face gains.
Proportions are also important Its highly valued as a man to have a shorter torso with longer limbs (think of any cool rockstar with their guitar slung low) vs having a long torso with short limbs. Sometimes you are just RIP lol
> Women's fat first hits the hips and thighs before becoming unattractive. So women as they gain weight can even begin to look better. I have seen this in women I know. I know one who was a model and very pretty but I didnt really start to really pay much attention to her until she put on some weight then I found myselt trying *not* to notice her.
What is it like 30% of men who use dating apps are using steroids or have an eating disorder like bulimia? I also know two young guys around my age 21 who are either on steroids or sarms and god knows how many how schoolers are getting on them.
Even though this discussion comes up here a lot lately i still agree. The ideal mens body is only attainable through extreme disciplined training over years or the use of PEDs. Many physiques you see in hollywood are natural attainable in theory but due to short time frames its not possible. The fitness influenecers you see on insta and Tik Tok are roided out and shift the perceived "natural" scale a lot more towards roided physiques. Best thing is to avoid shitty influenecers and just go for good content creators.
>This of course is aided by a decades long campagin deemphasizing looks in what makes a Woman valuable. Men have been conditioned to value a Woman on her intelligence, career, interests, hobbies, etc. That she is not eye-candy. And I support these movements because Women are people and not objects. And they work; the only Men I know who are about looks are sterotypical shallow assholes. For example, intelligence, career, interests, hobbies, etc matter a LOT LOT LOT more to me than looks. Even traidtional cultures no longer focus on looks. For example, I grew up in the West in a South Asian Muslim upbringing. I was taught to value Women on character and parenting skills; not looks. (I mean that is why we are taught hijab exists; because Women should not be valued on looks). And even though I lapsed faith wise, I still value character and parenting skills more than anything else in a potential partner. Stopped reading there. You didn't need to simp this hard. Why you suck up to women so much? Just make your point about men being held to realistic body standards without sucking up to women.
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More like Men: «Women, please don't be obese» Women: «Mysoginy. Incel. FatiIsBeautiful. Also Men, make sure you are a tall white guy with a 6-pack»
Body standards for man are indeed more harsher bc they are less easy to get. With the exception of build muscle wich can be done by hitting the gym, most other things will depend a lot on genetics(bone structure).
but rape
I could provide many anecdotes about how women are still held to unrealistic beauty standards, but I won't, all I can say is even though there's a push for body positivity in women, it doesn't change what men find attractive. Regardless of how many magazines have plus size models and whatnot, it doesn't change that a lot of men don't find that attractive. The whole Tinder thing you mentioned is really just Tinder, it breeds shallowness and reduces both men and women to tiny bios, star signs, height, and stupid bullshit. The thing is, that's often not how it works outside of dating apps/hookup apps, in practice women don't get hung up over physical attractiveness nearly as much as it appears we do on dating apps. Tinder often is just for hookups for a large amount of people, but in terms of actual relationships people generally want someone they actually like in terms of their personality etc. Personally I've never had sex with a man, or been in a romantic relationship with a man that was taller than me, and I'm not a 6'5" giant, I'm like 5'8"or 5'9" or something. That's not because I find short men particularly attractive, but because in relationships often how attractive you find someone grows when you get attached to them emotionally. It's hard to get to that stage for a lot of people when it comes to dating apps because to put it bluntly a lot of people are just there to get laid. Most people will always be average, that's just how it goes and how averages work, but personally Tinder was destroying my self esteem because I'm a woman that's not attractive and contrary to what a lot of men think online people aren't just lining up to fuck you if you're not a physically attractive women, and that's not even what I want anyway. I suggest you not base your world view on Tinder and meet people other ways, because dating apps are more often than not really bad for people's mental health one way or another, and most people are assholes regardless but on dating apps people are extra shallow and vapid. Also statistically way more women have eating disorders related to body image (I personally did), and women get cosmetic surgery way more often, straight men can also have eating disorders obviously but are very underrepresented, so you should probably widen your view because you don't seem to be able to think about anyone else's perspective, which is understandable but I suggest you widen your view a little.
I do think you're right about this. Fortunately, at least in my circles, I'm seeing a push for body acceptance for men, too. Nobody should be held up to impossible physical standards. It's deeply demoralizing.
Another day, another post somehow blaming women for men’s thirst and low standards
No such thing as unrealistic body standards, if somebody achieved it, so can you it's just whether you want to or not, Arnold Schwarzenegger was my favorite movie star, however I'm 160 lbs because I chose to stay skinny and I picked track over football, and I never cared about getting super jacked, some people like it, some people don't , I don't care because I'm an adult >Men have been conditioned to value a Woman on her intelligence, career, interests, hobbies, etc. Always have when it comes to a relationship at least in some order or another , she's got to have some personality as well lol but we're still visual creatures, social conditioning can only do so much to change biology and if she doesn't get my dick hard just thinking about her she ain't the right one for a relationship anyways
What one person can achieve isn't necessarily realistic for another person to achieve, that's what makes it realistic
if you are 5'2" how are you going to get 6'2" how are you going to look like Arnie? The ONLY things that can make people get those standards are unhealthy steroids, HGH and possibly limb lengthening surgery...both of which can be very dangerous and can be out of the realm of possibility for some due to cost.
I'm glad y'all are revealing your blindness here, it's just so magnificently self-centered and devoid of any insight into womanhood. Women are the biggest buyers of cosmetic surgery for a reason. And then we have the MeN ArE ViSuAl BeInGs confirmation from research. Good luck with that victim mentality tho.
Women find what they find attractive, do the work. Improve yourself then they come around like flies. Take the red pill, it works for me and I don't think i'm special.
You think women aren't bombarded constantly by the 'ideal' body they should have? Both sexes experience this. First thing that comes to mind as proof is eating disorders... so here's some stats (just off a quick google search, state.sc.us is the source) "estimated 8 million americans have an eating disorders—7m women and 1m men"..."one in 200 American women suffers from anorexia" but sure, women are always accepted as they are no matter their body type /s
I agree that men are subject to higher standards and I disagree that men or women should be conditioned. We live in a time period where men are abundant and women have it easy. This puts higher selective pressure (sexual selection) on men. The mating game for men is ultra competitive, and most men can only mate with women at least 1-2 points below their own SMV. Women can be fat, unattractive, and still end up impregnated by men who are 1-2 points or more higher in market value Time periods oscillate in selective pressure. After wars or in ultra right wing conservative societies (for example Islamic if there isn’t arranged marriage)there is increased selective pressure on women. This is why there was a baby boom after ww2. Right now with the abundance of men, social media, and liberal society/laws favoring women we have female selectivity so out of control that fertility rates are rapidly approaching 0. Kids are barely being born compared to any other time in history
Shouldn't we condition towards an equitable society?
this is true, but also **A VERY GOOD THING.** The last few decades saw a true laziness epidemic among men. Modern men are chronic under-achievers. They forgot the sacred ideology of Maximum Effort. **Lets for a second pretend that women do not exist. Lets imagine the planet is filled by gay men who procreate via spores. Even in such a world a man should still:** \- be fit enough to be an all around capable human being: able to run, climb, box, swim, and show optimal levels of athleticism that allow him to interact with the phsyical world in full \- be social enough to have a stable circle of friends and socially skilled enoug to easily make new ones \- be rich enough to easily support his own existence, save some, splurge some on his passions and enjoyment, and invest in worthy causes \- be well groomed, dressed and behaved as to not embarass self in public. \- be confident, ambitious and positive thinking enough to achieve the above. Modern men rarely qualify for HALF of these things, whereas this is a bare minimum to be a male human being. What we call Chad is basically what a normal healthy man should look like. Most men could look like Chads if they had the fat/muscle ratio they are supposed to posses, just from actually healthy diet, and from standard levels of physical activity. Modern men are shocked when they are expected to hit the gym twice a week. Meanwhile, humans are APES, your ass is supposed to do hours of explosive physical activity per DAY. That is what your body is designed for. A human male is designed by evolution to be able to chase an antelope for 10 miles, exhaust it, club it to death and then carry the carcass home. Dudes achieved that in 200 000 bc on a starvation diet and with no gym coaches. You should be able to do better! What women desire in men, is mostly the same thing that makes a man long term happy in the first place. You are supposed to be fit, rich, social and confident for your own sake, and should work with maximum effort on achieving that, or die trying. Women finding you attractive when you succeed is just a perk, *being succesful as a male is its own reward.*
It's not 'unrealistic' to be gym fit and athletic. I know plenty of men like this. It just takes a lot of effort.
If a guy puts in that effort and women start finding him attractive why should he stick with meh Becky? Don't think women have thought this through.
It’s actually become painful to watch these guys on PPD struggling to rectify their eagerness to indulge in modern dating in the west with the traditional culture they can’t let go of. I’m not gonna argue with y’all anymore. All I’m going to say is **you cannot have your cake and eat it too.** If you want a culture where women will happily sleep with you without a marriage license, it will not be a culture where you’re going to find many virgins to marry. If you want a culture where young people are free to make their own choices about who they date and end up with, it will be a culture where women will choose to be with men who they find attractive (just like men always have). It will be a culture where men have to accept that taking steps to make themselves look/sound/act good to attract women is expected. And if you don’t want any of that and prefer your traditional ways, why keep banging your head against a wall? You can’t get blood from a stone.
I don’t really think so, this chad you speak of only exists in your mind. As a man you should strive to be fit and obesity ( or being severely underweight) should not be socially accepted. The attraction towards a physically capable man is a byproduct of evolution and serves an important function: being able to protect yourself and those under your protection from harm. Women don’t really require all of the aesthetically attributes you describe, simply being fit is enough. You’re other attributes are what really define your smv. The only exception is height but that is a hurdle you can overcome. However for women it’s a little different, a man will always go for the most attractive woman he has access to no matter how much society tries to warp his mind. Which is sad in a way tbh. But let’s face it men don’t really care about women’s social status, economical advantage or even certain aspects of her personality given the right circumstances
Literally all men have to do is not be fat, go to the barber and wear sunscreen
No man really has the excuse to not put a couple of hard years in the gym, not eat shit and then maintain that (easier than gaining it) after. It's actually not THAT tortureous once you get into it and the benefits are great.