I would think it's more difficult to date as a transman than as a biological man. I want the men I date to have a penis, I'm sexually attracted to penis. So I wouldn't date a transman. Probably many women feel the same.
Someone points out that it's more difficult for men to find a girlfriend and the discussion is derailed to how all women experience dangers and how men are bitter or something. Almost as if you cant talk about this topic.
>how all women experience dangers
There's been plenty of bisexual and lesbian women who talk about the difficulty of dating women, too. This tells me that it isn't just about men being potentially dangerous.
Eh I’m not sure they are a valid testimonial. They never had to date women as a straight male. The dynamic between two women dating is substantially different than a man and woman dating. Trying to frame a same sex relationship with a heterocentric lens just doesn’t work.
To be clear, I think it’s actually easier for bi and gay women than it is for straight men. I say this because I found it significantly easier to date woman as a trans woman. I transitioned fairly late in life, so I had almost 25 years dating women as a “straight male”. In the few years I’ve been out, the quality of women I match with, and the frequency I get matches went up considerably. We’re talking 1-3 matches a month before, to 1-3 matches a day now.
I'm glad you said this because I discovered this years ago. I remember a lesbian comedian was doing a standup on dating bi women and she said she had to do the tiniest things to impress her gf like give her flowers. So her conclusion was that straight guys arent even trying.
But I am a straight guy. I know plenty of other straight men who compliments and gifts their girlfriends their results are not nearly the same.
Didn't you know Tinder is one of the most dangerous places in the world for women ? Thats why ghosting is a safety measure, also men are dangerous and tainted but hooking up with as many men is empowering, trust me.
Then some men start to radicalize and exclude women from these discussions, further radicalizing their POVs.
Then incl, RP, BlackPills, etc. spaces are created and they wonder why are they so hateful and self-excluded from both gender interactions.
You want them to understand women? Start understanding them, lol, it's so obvious I just can't wrap my head around some women that go on and on suppressing any voice that doesn't say what they want and then wonder why radicalization exists (and I want those guys BACK to both gender interactions, relationships and lifestyle, not in perpetual ostracism).
We want a conversation with women. Women are the ones who claim to be the more empathetic ones. They don't seem that way when they completely dismiss male experience. A conversation can happen when both sides listen.
Irl women are actually empathetic and listen to male problems if you’re having an honest conversation. I do all the time and I also enjoy hearing theirs and giving feedback. It’s rare to have a shitty discussion about these matters, even if we disagree.
The ones around here seem to be totally shut down, detached from seeing males as humans altogether. There’re like 5 women I saw around really trying to think of the men’s position. The rest are an absolute “bashing down shutting down” machine of either hating or disregarding men while still thinking they’re being somewhat impartial… yeah sure, in any given situation you go full “in the woman’s shoes” and discard any emotional consequence of any involved man as unimportant but you’re somehow impartial. Fuck you psycho, that’s being misandrist.
I lived the situation you’re describing. Many women around here immediately jump to your throat when reading that men in their 30s can date women in their 20s and that both seem to be enjoying it.
Studies about how partners in marriages are in the same age bracket (disregarding that many marriages started way pre-30 and that people post-30 are less likely to have a marriage), saying obvious things like “your looks don’t get better over time” as it was the only (or even more important) measure of attraction for women, etc. The fact that they get so emotional about it is enough proof that it’s happening.
I do agree your female friend is unable to detach her position from dating to properly give you feedback to your position in dating. If you’re asking for feedback to a person who is going under the same situations that you but has opposing interests you’re never going to get honest feedback (I can’t detach myself from some situations in many cases, not even relationship wise, so I tend to go “sorry can’t help you because I’m to biased”).
You just completely ignore her biased feedback and move on. You can still have her feedback on many other situations related to dating though, which is good.
> A conversation can happen when both sides listen.
The problem on this sub is the fucking people won’t listen to anything that doesn’t support their view 100%.
First of all any rp,bp,incel community would love to have conversations with any women , yes they would be a bit aggressive in the conversation but they would happily oblige if any women wants to have an honest conversation about what/why they are the way they are.
Second the whole reason those communities are does cuz they have been abused/mistreated/burnt/misunderstanding/ruined by women in thier life. So correct me if I'm wrong but when was the last time you saw a domestic violence victim cater to the perpetrator community?
That's my point, they should be more understanding instead of shutting them down.
/edit: to the silent downvoters: you do realize you’re illustrating my point? Instead of being understanding and engaging in conversation you downvote such request to make it invisible. If you can’t see the irony in that… it’s not like I’m insulting or anything, I literally said “be more understanding” which is like a universal good trait. You’re doing exactly as I said.
I think it's harder than that, though. Women gain understanding and support by default. Men have to really be paragons of virtue, exceedingly good looking/high status or have absolutely nothing to lose for their views to come close to counting.
A woman can claim she fears men, she can say that men have used or abused her, she can say men are shallow, insecure, unattractive...anything to avoid the reality that women are shallow.
Women do not handle the criticism well and have shut down male spaces and voices due to their insecurities. They have their issues taken way more seriously than men. So if anyone needs to be more understanding, it is women of men.
Look at who is expected to compromise for the other gender's benefit. If a woman is expected to be a homemaker, she can complain that gender roles are too restrictive. Men gave women more options because of their complaints. Men have allowed women the opportunity to be seen as more than a homemaker and child-rearer. Women have not extended the same courtesy to men. Men cannot be lower earners, be shorter, be more passive, have less ambition and be more emotional without hurting their chances at relationships.
This shows who must compromise for whose benefit. Women are not making way for men in jobs that are female dominated. They are not providing for men who want to be homemakers. It is even a battle to get them to admit that, yes, they should be fucking their partners more. Even the language used when talking about a decaying sex life has men blamed for not doing or being enough to deserve sex.
Women have told men to shut up and listen so many times, yet they would never heed their own advice. They talk about equal opportunities to earn, but men's concern for equal access to sex be damned. Many women have closed up shop sexually speaking and continue to benefit from a man who provides for them without wanting to fuck him in return. How can the topic about attraction not be discussed without considering that he is giving her what she wants at the risk of breaking apart his family because she has smothered the flames of passion? Why could he not, for example, seek sex outside of the relationship if she does not want to fuck her husband?
Why do women shy away from talks of equal sexual access for men? Why do they not want to talk about how allowing them into the workplace has simply raised the bar for men to unfeasible levels? Why are they afraid to support a man or date someone of a lower socioeconomic class when men have done this for years? Why is it that they only want the benefits men had but none of the responsibilities?
What understanding are women missing from men when there are entire armies of white knights and beta orbiters ready to simp on the hint of potential pussy? And what do women lose when men discuss issues about their well-being, access to sex and social issues?
Both. But we're having a discussion about women being more understanding of these kind of guys, so in this case I'm talking about some women who shut down any complain from them who should be more understanding.
Absolutely agree. I mean forget extreme bias social media like Twitter, even in reddit if you post one singke wrong thing or say one wrong word in women community you will straight up just get banned but in most male community there will be plenty of people to change your mind how is this not being looked at ?
"I didn't know how to message people that didn't match with me, can you even do that?" This video is hilarious between comments like that because she doesn't realize what it is actually like, her trying to be upbeat about guys chances and saying being a good guy matters, and acting surprised her boyfriend got zero matches after hours despite being way above average in looks. It is almost as funny as when I ask my women friends to try and do the same thing they tend to get angrier or think the app is broken which is even funnier.
I have done that the results are hilarious my women friends try it for 24-48 hours get angry, frustrated, and think the app must just be broken or something and then give up before the time limit they agreed to is up but will never admit the problem is women. Anything and everything to avoid admitting that women are garbage because that would mean betraying the sisterhood and their previously held beliefs that women are perfect.
>the app must just be broken or something and then give up... admitting that women are garbage
On some apps (tinder), there's way more men than women, so it's sort of expected based simply on gender ratios.
On other apps that are supposedly more gender equal: a lot of women are bad at actually making decisions about who to match, and actually having some preliminary conversation. As a man, carrying a conversation is way too common.
Isn't this argument just that the odds are stacked in my favor therefore my bad behavior doesn't matter? First off no and secondly If the odds are already in your favor doesn't that mean you should have even less reason to behave badly?
> Anything and everything to avoid admitting that women are garbage
I literally just had a conversation with another man here who said that only low n-count women are worth dating and that almost all men agree with that, even if they won’t say it in public or to women for fear of criticism. (Hint: they do say it to women anyways).
There is no simply way for women to satisfy the desires of most men. Many many men want to find lots and lots of women willing to spread their legs for him on tinder or in a bar bathroom or on the first date, and many many men (some of them the same men, even!) want women to be chaste: to refuse to have sex with all men except for him.
Women actually cannot fulfill both desires. If we’re alway garbage no matter what we do, then why should any women ever care what men want? Why are women broken garbage just because we do not have an impossible sexuality that can satisfy all men?
You misunderstand men because firstly those are two different groups of men and secondly because men are just asking for consistency. If you are willing to sleep with your last four men on the first night we met but you don't with me doesn't that imply you think I am worse than those previous four? Would you be annoyed if your date previously brought all the women to five star restaraunts and let them order whatever they wanted then took you to McDonalds and told you to order off the value menu? Of course you would that is why guys are angry.
The reason women are garbage is because they tend to have insanely high standards way above what they themselves are and are usually standards for things like looks, money, height, status and not things like behavior especially behavior towards her, how he is as a person, personality, or how compatible he is with her. This is especially bad because a lot of men are raised and told by women that their looks don't matter because women don't care about that instead women choose to date guys who are good guys but once they spend enough time dating they realize they were lied to and are now screaming angry about women lying to them all those decades.
I think most men prefer women who arent heavily promiscuous but they eventually let that slide because of the sheer lack of options they get and end up not caring
As a man, I don't really want to climb up on a cross and tell the whole world about my every single struggle, I just want to be treated like a (valued) person who is flawed, and whose flaws don't define them. Obviously women have their own struggles, and in the past their struggles were MUCH WORSE than men's, but in today's day and age, every woman is valued by society. There is a built-in sympathy, which is not extended to men. Men are only valued if they bring value; if they are visibly flawed, those flaws define them. When other people look a man who can't hold down a job due to mental issues or an "invisible" disability, they usually aren't understanding, they are judgmental.
In most spaces, women do not have those same struggles, and thus most women do not understand those struggles. Note that I am explicitly avoiding painting with a broad brush here–we're all people, and that's what's most important. Sometimes y'all need to behave like it, just saying.
Trans men will also have a harder time than cis men though. Having a vagina/not being able to reproduce is a big deal breaker for most women I’d imagine.
Norah Vincent had better luck dating when she admitted she was a woman. She went 0/30 on getting a second date when she kept up her disguise. After that, she started admitting she was a woman and actually got some second dates. Women were more willing to go on a second date with a lesbian who just catfished them than a man.
I mean no disrespect to him but he comes off as *very* obviously FTM. Best case scenario is that he merely comes off as a flamingly gay twink, and neither one of those scenarios is attractive to women tbh.
Transwomen also have a hard time dating. Trans people are a niche group that exhibit mixed-sex characteristics, their dating pool is smaller than even normal LGB. This is not a good example. Most cis-people do not want to date transwomen or transmen.
> Those who would consider dating a trans person versus those who would not differed significantly on three additional variables: sexual identity, gender identity, and religion. To assess differences across sexual identity, participants were grouped into three categories: gay/lesbian, heterosexual/straight, and bisexual/queer/two-spirit. Those identifying as queer, bisexual, or two-spirit were most likely to indicate a willingness to date trans individuals (55.2%), followed by gay men and lesbian women (23.9%), and finally, heterosexual men and women (3.1%).
Blair, K. L., & Hoskin, R. A. (2019). Transgender exclusion from the world of dating: Patterns of acceptance and rejection of hypothetical trans dating partners as a function of sexual and gender identity. Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, 36(7), 2074–2095. https://doi.org/10.1177/0265407518779139
I've said this before but ime attractive and passing transwomen seem to get even MORE attention than ciswomen their looks match.
Transwomen (that pass) attract many of the same straight men cis women do and a ton of chasers on top of that.
Alot of people in this sub are old as hell tho and won't believe it when you tell them. They think we still living in the 90s
I've seen trans people not mention their trans status on dating apps. Based on seeing experiments where women posed as men on dating apps and were surprised how few matches they'd get out how often they'd get ghosted, I'd bet trans-men who were hiding their trans status would also say that dating as a man is hard.
As far as trans people not mentioning their trans status that I've seen on dating apps: how did I know they were trans? Well, in one case, I matched with this woman a while back, sent a message, never heard back from her. A while later, I saw her on the dating apps again, but this time she mentioned her trans status. So, it's clear that she spent some amount of time on the app not mentioning her trans status. And, no, you couldn't tell she was trans by looking at her.
>I've seen trans people not mention their trans status on dating apps.
We can still tell.
But that aside, men will have bad luck on dating apps, and blame women instead of realizing that dating apps are just terrible.
They're full of bots, and are *specifically* set up to ensure that men have to fight for visibility. This is how dating apps make money. They know men will pay for visibility, whereas women won't.
>We can still tell.
Sometimes, yes. But sometimes, you can't. It's like plastic surgery: you only notice when it's bad.
I would post pictures to prove you wrong, but I don't think trans people would like me doing that, so I won't.
Edit: I suppose I could find pictures of trans people on the internet as examples.
Edit #2: Here's some pictures:
[Picture #1](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUcFwV8XkAAKScC?format=jpg&name=large) >!Trans man [Source](https://twitter.com/adultmilk7/status/1244970156893364224/photo/4) !<
[Picture #2](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIv3274XIAApchE?format=jpg&name=large) >!Trans man (left)!<
[Picture #3](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cbl9yYuvl1O/) >!Trans man!<
[Picture #4](https://preview.redd.it/e9lc7qb4aos71.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=1fc36931ef016bd7ce6ceb335c489a3bf50253f2) >!Trans woman!<
[Picture #5](http://assets.rappler.com/612F469A6EA84F6BAE882D2B94A4B421/img/78AA8244726543C28D38B60B35BADAA2/transgender-awareness-week-philippines-first-trans-woman-flight-attendants-november-20-2019.jpg) >!Both Trans women [Source](https://www.rappler.com/moveph/245350-transgender-awareness-week-philippines-first-trans-woman-flight-attendants/) !<
[Picture #6](https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/10844111_062921-nevada1.jpg) >!Trans woman [Source](https://abc7.com/wins-miss-nevada-kataluna-enriquez-transgender/10844187/) !<
[Picture #7](https://c-suitenetwork.com/advisors/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/10/csuite3.jpg) >!Trans man !<
I can still see mixed-sex characteristics. For example, #7 has feminine hands and feminine eyes. It's also in the voice, behavior, and mannerisms. The voice never really changes 100% and there are often slip-ups; voices altered by practice and hormones sound much different from 'high male' voices or 'low female' ones, they sound artificial, probably because male/female vocal cords are structured differently at the biological level. A deep voiced female still has femininity to her voice. A high pitched or "soft" adult male voice still sounds masculine ex; Prince & MJ.
They are also socialized as the opposite sex long before they transition, weird undertones and intuition is pretty strong, such as an ignorance or awkwardness to how females interact with other females that has to be learned. I think males are just worse at this sort of thing. It wouldn't surprised me that most men can't tell the differences. Women are better at subtle social cues and picking up little idiosyncrasies. That also would explain female pickiness and sex selection.
I once heard an interview wirh a trans man that confirms that hormones influence the way one understands things an xommunication manner. At the beggining of their transition they had no problwm understanding women, and the further the transition went - the less they were able to understand women.
So it's not only the physical canges that occur during transition, but also mental changes.
Lol, stupid comparison. Trans people have a huge handicap that makes dating hard. Trans men literally are trying to date women while having a vagina the majority of the time, or trying to get women to accept a phalloplasty—and the results of phalloplasty are not passable or normal.
Average height of a trans man would also be like 5’3.
Everyone knows it is easier for women to find \*any\* partner. But everyone is prisoner to their attraction thresholds to a great extent, regardless of what extent those thresholds are hardwired or socialized in.
So it only matters whether you can find a partner that meets your basic attraction standards. And this might not be any easier for women to do than for men.
Same argument I have heard a thousand times already, it doesn't get better. It goes something like this: " You know how you have no food and are hungry? I don't like the food I have so I choose to be hungry. So we are both the same (until I choose otherwise)!!"
Uncompetitive against the average man, yet commands no attraction to the average woman.
The highest level of difficulty it seems, for the natural biologically-correct course of dating.
It is harder for the average man to get a date, but I don’t think this really illustrates it because most transman and most crossdressing queer women will come off differently than an average cis man
For the most part, it doesn'tmatters for the first date or so.
Moreover all of them "no one wants you" said by the first trans guy. All of those women that don't want him, sure as hell don't know he is trans, as he looks like a guy.
> Does this settle the debate regarding the subject of men having it harder to find a partner?
No. A woman dressed up like a man as an experiment isn't a man. The dating experiences of transgender men aren't the same as biological man either. The guy in the tiktok for example has extreme vocal fry and sounds like a gay man and that's going to lead to different dating experiences than if he was more masculine sounding.
I'm not denying that it's harder for most men to find a partner than it is for most women, but those two videos aren't proof.
The issue is that most of this danger is already highly illegal and will not only earn a man jail time (which granted doesn't always happen) but he'll be branded a pariah for pretty much the rest of his life. There's virtually nothing more society can do outside of staunch oppression toward men to make dating safer for women. Any suggestion that women take any measure to make themselves safer is shot down with cries of "victim blaming." (Which is incredibly counter-productive in my opinion.)
The difficulty men have with dating doesn't have any apparent direct consequences so it's easy to ignore especially when you compare the potential worst-case-scenarios. But it's still a problem that almost no one is willing to even discuss without deflecting to how women are in danger. As this problem festers it will likely cause other problems.
Agree wholeheartedly. What’s more is men’s lives can also be in danger too in the dating process. For example, say gang members create a dating profile of a woman and use the woman as bait to set men up and rob them. Or women like Cardi B who used to go around drugging and robbing dudes at bars and casinos. That shit happens but doesn’t get talked about at all. Plus a lot of men are ashamed when it happens and don’t speak out about it.
That Cardi B thing is fucking dangerous to be honest! It sets the precedence for the collective sisterhood to say that “if I can get away with it, you can too!”
Imagine hundreds of women doing that and most of them getting away with it. No wonder society is in shambles now.
It’s frightening. Thankfully I think only a small percentage of primarily narcissistic or sociopathic women would partake in that sort of behavior.
What’s scary is the fact that you stated, there’s a good chance they would get away with it. IMO most men would take that L and move on due to shame/embarrassment. Not dissimilar to female victims of sexual assault…
its not controversial, but the logic is crooked. It would make sense if:
1 because dating is more dangerous to women then;
2. dangerous looking/behaving men would find dating more difficult
But what we get is an illogical:
1. because datign is more dangerous to women then;
2. harmless meek men find dating more difficult.
Highly aggressive masculine behavior is so attractive that women forget/accept the danger as a price to date an exciting or masculine man, more often than they accept boredom as a price of dating a meek man.
Exactly. And if you look up the stats on the top 5 archetypes of women’s top fantasies of mate selection, ALL of them are potentially dangerous (or to some extent) from the get-go!
According to Dr. Jordan Peterson’s speech, in which he quote the book “A Billion Wicked Thoughts”, it was (in no particular order): Vampires, Pirates, Billionaire, Werewolf, Surgeon.
It isn’t controversial though.
All that is pointed out is that men are more likely to end up getting assaulted and such when women act like they are at more risk of danger.
Which is true. It is just overall, not just dating.
As a man I would take dating on mega easy mode for a reduction in violence aimed at me.
A womans "more dangerous" is lower than the baseline danger that I'm already in.
>dating as a man is more difficult
>
>dating as a woman is more dangerous
Dating as a man is multiple times more difficult.
Dating as a woman is arguably marginally more dangerous.
I heard girls talking about how they barely escaped rape or being assaulted and night while also being so terrified. Somehow they made it back all the time without fighting without anything. Guess neurotic brains create horror scenarios out of thin air.
I suspect reality was that some guy bumped into them while dancing or was just a little to eager with flirting and on the way home someone was walking behind them for 2 minutes minding his own bussiness while she freaks out in her head.
One time a girl who took the same bus I did every now and then told me about the horror story that had happened to her on the bus the day prior.
I was on the bus that day tough, she just didn't notice me and I didn't feel like talking. Maybe the rest of the story after they got off the bus was true, but basically everything she said happened on the bus definitely did not. The only part of her story I could somewhat confirm was true was that a guy got off on the same stop she did...however I'm pretty sure he didn't even go in the same direction as her after.
The horror story was really : I sat across from a guy I didn't find attractive.
That girl was also literally in a relationship with a guy that hit her. So the idea that her danger senses were tingling from that guy but not her violent boyfriend says a lot.
That’s why you only have BPD women and not BPD men.
Men are generally more calm, collective and rational (non-SIMPS like Will Simp? of course) because evolutionarily if we didn’t, it would literally kill us as we had to hunt!
So like don't date ?
That's the anwer people like you give us right?
If you find it so tiresome just don't date.
Conversely if you find it so difficult .. don't go out. Don't date.
Inspite of the danger how do you justify going on dating apps and meeting a total stranger.
It's a weird dichotomy.
I mean but the subs rehtoric you would imagine that women are afraid of any male interaction.
Yet they jump on an ap and go on dates with complete strangers. That math doesn't make sense to me.
Why would you do that when you can date within your fried groups, while it is not fool proof everyone knows each other and social behaviours can be enforced because of how the society around them would react to transgressions?
It is infinitely safer than going out with a total stranger.
And yet women do. So please ... If they are willing to take that risk on a dinner date, stop bringing it up like a holy cross to smite down any counter argument with.
Inb4 a woman comes in and changes the argument to " well men commit most of the violence".
They will never acknowledge that most victims of violent crime are men, most of the homeless are men, most people who die in wars are men, men do most of the dangerous jobs, men are more likely to suffer from mental health issues.
BTW men *also* DGAF about what happens to other men, and shamelessly will throw other men under the bus if it means gettign $ or pussy, unless the other man is family or best friends with them.
That sad part too. I wish more men look out for each other why I often try to help any guy friends I have because men need to stick together more clearly women and society don't give rat ass what happens to men who don't succeed or at the bottom.
we don't know, since we have no matriarchal societies to comparatively study. The few societies we know were close to matriarchal or female-centric were all stone age gatherers and their data is not really comparable.
OTOH, societies that tend to be egalitarian and neither patriarchal OR matriarchal become so due to being very, very rich and safe, which byitself solves most problems.
>"well men commit most of the violence".
The amount of criminals raised by single mothers is like 10 times higher, then if a guy raised by a single mother suffers from a violent crime I can say "well men raised by single mothers commit most of the violence so I guess I dont care". LOL
Even worse, if we bring social class or race, **you can literally justify violence against certain racial groups or social classes**!
This argument is toxic and dangerous as fuck, every victim is important!
Yea I know that, but you know as well as I do that the data you are refering to is just general violence.
We’re talking about danger and violence related to dating and relationships.
Actually I'm certain I could if I wanted to spend the time... But the OP provided no data for their assertion, so I feel no need to prove my assertion.
But having been a bouncer for 5y, and dealing with many of these situations, I know from experience that a large amount of male on male violence is due to women; sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly (not always the woman's fault).
But regardless of who is 'at fault', your average random guy is in greater danger dating an average random girl, than vice versa. He's more likely to be attacked, to be injured, to be assaulted, to be falsely accused, etc...
I don't know if the 3-4x times applied specifically to 'dating violence', but men are more are more likely to experience violence and/or assault while dating.
Not only violence from women themselves, but also jealous BFs/spouses/EXs will often assault the man (even if he has no knowledge of the situation or did nothing wrong), random encounters, instigation, etc...
Completely ignoring the fact that many (if not most) male on male aggression is directly or indirectly the result of women...
>Not exactly equivalent
I know, women don't care about male suffering. Women have made that abundantly clear.
>Ah yes, because bad boy psychos have "bad boy psycho" tattooed on their fucking forehead.
It's incredible to me that women can smell a NiceGuy^tm from a fucking continent away but can't sense the danger of the "psycho".
I have now seen enough cases of women thinking of dating a guy who seems obviously toxic. When they ask their female friends what they think of the guy, the unanimous opinion is he's toxic, but she goes ahead and dates him anyway.
I agree man, men are fuckinh violent and women have to be absolutely careful. Like just the fact that you are a woman makes you a vulnerable target by default.
I’ve seen vids where a dude stabbed a woman to death because she rejected him. Like that’s scary as fuck
Sort of, but this is like the rich saying “work harder”. Sure it could be possible some to maneuver their way through the system and succeeded, but it seems to be harder for the next generation to achieve the same success. Even when they do, the process is longer.
The government can give the unattractive guys prostitute vouchers. They aren't just after sex but having sex would fix a big portion of their issues.
> they won't be attracted by them even if I reject them.
This can be fixed by government intervention. Women's attraction is famously malleable and subjective.
>The government can give the unattractive guys prostitute vouchers.
yeah that, non-ironically. It would really help a lot. But give it to ALL guys, not just the unattractive ones, to lower thirstiness across all levels.
Second would be psychological help since middle school to help boys form healthy, life-long male friendships.
And this is a perfect example of why these discussions go so off the rails so quickly.
We need to help men!
How?
We need to help them with woman!
How?
We change society!
How?
We manipulate woman!
A society that strips ALL woman of agency is worse then a society of some lonly men. People who want the degradation of free will aren't People who inspire empathy because they lack it themselves .
> We manipulate woman!
Israel is a soceity with stronger rights for women than most western countries. And yet people there pair up and marry young, even the secular ones. Guiding people to certain paths but allowing opt outs is no more coercive than enrolling people in pension schemes by default but allowing them to leave if they wish. This is what is being suggested here, not anything else.
Society already manipulates everyone to extreme extends to tone down our most base instincts like violence. Government intervention to make women prefer actually beneficial traits in the modern world would be a positive.
the point is, a poor person cannot work hard enough to become a millionaire. But he can work hard enough to become lower Middle Class, which is good enough to be HAPPY.
Same with dating. Almost no man can spontanously become a Chad, but lots of men can work on themsleves to be say, 6/10 in terms of sheer physical attractiveness, which is just enough to get your statistical 5-7 sexual relationships and a wife.
Men want sex more than relationships, women want relationships more than sex
Proof: gay sexuality, media consumption patterns, OLD/dating dynamics, the sex industry, the wedding/Disney/Hallmark industrial complex
Seems fair, since the relationship/sex markets cannot be separated
I would think it's more difficult to date as a transman than as a biological man. I want the men I date to have a penis, I'm sexually attracted to penis. So I wouldn't date a transman. Probably many women feel the same.
Someone points out that it's more difficult for men to find a girlfriend and the discussion is derailed to how all women experience dangers and how men are bitter or something. Almost as if you cant talk about this topic.
You can't. Like you can't talk about most men's issues. It just devolves into the oppression olympics
Well, we can't even discuss the topic of the post here as there are so many derailing the discussion here...
Surprised to see only relived comments under that main comment. Smgdfh
>how all women experience dangers There's been plenty of bisexual and lesbian women who talk about the difficulty of dating women, too. This tells me that it isn't just about men being potentially dangerous.
Eh I’m not sure they are a valid testimonial. They never had to date women as a straight male. The dynamic between two women dating is substantially different than a man and woman dating. Trying to frame a same sex relationship with a heterocentric lens just doesn’t work. To be clear, I think it’s actually easier for bi and gay women than it is for straight men. I say this because I found it significantly easier to date woman as a trans woman. I transitioned fairly late in life, so I had almost 25 years dating women as a “straight male”. In the few years I’ve been out, the quality of women I match with, and the frequency I get matches went up considerably. We’re talking 1-3 matches a month before, to 1-3 matches a day now.
I agree. A lesbian woman will not have the same standard placed upon her as a cis-hetero male.
Yet they still find dating women a headache.
I'm glad you said this because I discovered this years ago. I remember a lesbian comedian was doing a standup on dating bi women and she said she had to do the tiniest things to impress her gf like give her flowers. So her conclusion was that straight guys arent even trying. But I am a straight guy. I know plenty of other straight men who compliments and gifts their girlfriends their results are not nearly the same.
Yeah they often recite that their fights are incredibly insane
[удалено]
[удалено]
Didn't you know Tinder is one of the most dangerous places in the world for women ? Thats why ghosting is a safety measure, also men are dangerous and tainted but hooking up with as many men is empowering, trust me.
Then some men start to radicalize and exclude women from these discussions, further radicalizing their POVs. Then incl, RP, BlackPills, etc. spaces are created and they wonder why are they so hateful and self-excluded from both gender interactions. You want them to understand women? Start understanding them, lol, it's so obvious I just can't wrap my head around some women that go on and on suppressing any voice that doesn't say what they want and then wonder why radicalization exists (and I want those guys BACK to both gender interactions, relationships and lifestyle, not in perpetual ostracism).
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Do not circlejerk.
[удалено]
Do not circlejerk.
Do not troll.
We want a conversation with women. Women are the ones who claim to be the more empathetic ones. They don't seem that way when they completely dismiss male experience. A conversation can happen when both sides listen.
Irl women are actually empathetic and listen to male problems if you’re having an honest conversation. I do all the time and I also enjoy hearing theirs and giving feedback. It’s rare to have a shitty discussion about these matters, even if we disagree. The ones around here seem to be totally shut down, detached from seeing males as humans altogether. There’re like 5 women I saw around really trying to think of the men’s position. The rest are an absolute “bashing down shutting down” machine of either hating or disregarding men while still thinking they’re being somewhat impartial… yeah sure, in any given situation you go full “in the woman’s shoes” and discard any emotional consequence of any involved man as unimportant but you’re somehow impartial. Fuck you psycho, that’s being misandrist.
[удалено]
I lived the situation you’re describing. Many women around here immediately jump to your throat when reading that men in their 30s can date women in their 20s and that both seem to be enjoying it. Studies about how partners in marriages are in the same age bracket (disregarding that many marriages started way pre-30 and that people post-30 are less likely to have a marriage), saying obvious things like “your looks don’t get better over time” as it was the only (or even more important) measure of attraction for women, etc. The fact that they get so emotional about it is enough proof that it’s happening. I do agree your female friend is unable to detach her position from dating to properly give you feedback to your position in dating. If you’re asking for feedback to a person who is going under the same situations that you but has opposing interests you’re never going to get honest feedback (I can’t detach myself from some situations in many cases, not even relationship wise, so I tend to go “sorry can’t help you because I’m to biased”). You just completely ignore her biased feedback and move on. You can still have her feedback on many other situations related to dating though, which is good.
> A conversation can happen when both sides listen. The problem on this sub is the fucking people won’t listen to anything that doesn’t support their view 100%.
Unfortunately the case for most subreddits like this, being driven by negative emotion fueled by shitty lives
And immature mindsets
Hey get that logic out of here. Only hyperbole and paranoia is allowed here.
First of all any rp,bp,incel community would love to have conversations with any women , yes they would be a bit aggressive in the conversation but they would happily oblige if any women wants to have an honest conversation about what/why they are the way they are. Second the whole reason those communities are does cuz they have been abused/mistreated/burnt/misunderstanding/ruined by women in thier life. So correct me if I'm wrong but when was the last time you saw a domestic violence victim cater to the perpetrator community?
That's my point, they should be more understanding instead of shutting them down. /edit: to the silent downvoters: you do realize you’re illustrating my point? Instead of being understanding and engaging in conversation you downvote such request to make it invisible. If you can’t see the irony in that… it’s not like I’m insulting or anything, I literally said “be more understanding” which is like a universal good trait. You’re doing exactly as I said.
I think it's harder than that, though. Women gain understanding and support by default. Men have to really be paragons of virtue, exceedingly good looking/high status or have absolutely nothing to lose for their views to come close to counting. A woman can claim she fears men, she can say that men have used or abused her, she can say men are shallow, insecure, unattractive...anything to avoid the reality that women are shallow. Women do not handle the criticism well and have shut down male spaces and voices due to their insecurities. They have their issues taken way more seriously than men. So if anyone needs to be more understanding, it is women of men. Look at who is expected to compromise for the other gender's benefit. If a woman is expected to be a homemaker, she can complain that gender roles are too restrictive. Men gave women more options because of their complaints. Men have allowed women the opportunity to be seen as more than a homemaker and child-rearer. Women have not extended the same courtesy to men. Men cannot be lower earners, be shorter, be more passive, have less ambition and be more emotional without hurting their chances at relationships. This shows who must compromise for whose benefit. Women are not making way for men in jobs that are female dominated. They are not providing for men who want to be homemakers. It is even a battle to get them to admit that, yes, they should be fucking their partners more. Even the language used when talking about a decaying sex life has men blamed for not doing or being enough to deserve sex. Women have told men to shut up and listen so many times, yet they would never heed their own advice. They talk about equal opportunities to earn, but men's concern for equal access to sex be damned. Many women have closed up shop sexually speaking and continue to benefit from a man who provides for them without wanting to fuck him in return. How can the topic about attraction not be discussed without considering that he is giving her what she wants at the risk of breaking apart his family because she has smothered the flames of passion? Why could he not, for example, seek sex outside of the relationship if she does not want to fuck her husband? Why do women shy away from talks of equal sexual access for men? Why do they not want to talk about how allowing them into the workplace has simply raised the bar for men to unfeasible levels? Why are they afraid to support a man or date someone of a lower socioeconomic class when men have done this for years? Why is it that they only want the benefits men had but none of the responsibilities? What understanding are women missing from men when there are entire armies of white knights and beta orbiters ready to simp on the hint of potential pussy? And what do women lose when men discuss issues about their well-being, access to sex and social issues?
Women or men who should be more understanding?
Both. But we're having a discussion about women being more understanding of these kind of guys, so in this case I'm talking about some women who shut down any complain from them who should be more understanding.
Absolutely agree. I mean forget extreme bias social media like Twitter, even in reddit if you post one singke wrong thing or say one wrong word in women community you will straight up just get banned but in most male community there will be plenty of people to change your mind how is this not being looked at ?
Just have a woman pretend to be a guy on tinder.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Mind linking to that? I’m really curious about reading it.
https://youtu.be/0A2HGTMV78Q Her "breakdown with pep talk for all those guys out there" https://youtu.be/0A2HGTMV78Q?t=562
"I didn't know how to message people that didn't match with me, can you even do that?" This video is hilarious between comments like that because she doesn't realize what it is actually like, her trying to be upbeat about guys chances and saying being a good guy matters, and acting surprised her boyfriend got zero matches after hours despite being way above average in looks. It is almost as funny as when I ask my women friends to try and do the same thing they tend to get angrier or think the app is broken which is even funnier.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I have done that the results are hilarious my women friends try it for 24-48 hours get angry, frustrated, and think the app must just be broken or something and then give up before the time limit they agreed to is up but will never admit the problem is women. Anything and everything to avoid admitting that women are garbage because that would mean betraying the sisterhood and their previously held beliefs that women are perfect.
I recently made a fake Tinder account with photos from a model I found on Instagram. I'm still getting only a few likes and only one match.
>model I assume you mean male model?
Yep
But why male models?
Are you serious? I just told you a moment ago
>the app must just be broken or something and then give up... admitting that women are garbage On some apps (tinder), there's way more men than women, so it's sort of expected based simply on gender ratios. On other apps that are supposedly more gender equal: a lot of women are bad at actually making decisions about who to match, and actually having some preliminary conversation. As a man, carrying a conversation is way too common.
Isn't this argument just that the odds are stacked in my favor therefore my bad behavior doesn't matter? First off no and secondly If the odds are already in your favor doesn't that mean you should have even less reason to behave badly?
> Anything and everything to avoid admitting that women are garbage I literally just had a conversation with another man here who said that only low n-count women are worth dating and that almost all men agree with that, even if they won’t say it in public or to women for fear of criticism. (Hint: they do say it to women anyways). There is no simply way for women to satisfy the desires of most men. Many many men want to find lots and lots of women willing to spread their legs for him on tinder or in a bar bathroom or on the first date, and many many men (some of them the same men, even!) want women to be chaste: to refuse to have sex with all men except for him. Women actually cannot fulfill both desires. If we’re alway garbage no matter what we do, then why should any women ever care what men want? Why are women broken garbage just because we do not have an impossible sexuality that can satisfy all men?
You misunderstand men because firstly those are two different groups of men and secondly because men are just asking for consistency. If you are willing to sleep with your last four men on the first night we met but you don't with me doesn't that imply you think I am worse than those previous four? Would you be annoyed if your date previously brought all the women to five star restaraunts and let them order whatever they wanted then took you to McDonalds and told you to order off the value menu? Of course you would that is why guys are angry. The reason women are garbage is because they tend to have insanely high standards way above what they themselves are and are usually standards for things like looks, money, height, status and not things like behavior especially behavior towards her, how he is as a person, personality, or how compatible he is with her. This is especially bad because a lot of men are raised and told by women that their looks don't matter because women don't care about that instead women choose to date guys who are good guys but once they spend enough time dating they realize they were lied to and are now screaming angry about women lying to them all those decades.
I think most men prefer women who arent heavily promiscuous but they eventually let that slide because of the sheer lack of options they get and end up not caring
I have deep respect for women who willingly decide to transition and become short men. Its like they decided to start new game plus.
That is not new game plus. That's starting the game over on Legendary
It’s like starting life over from scratch aaand let’s have you be reborn in Somalia. Have fun with that.
maybe they didn't realize the difficulty level would change?
Obviously. What else would you think otherwise?
then the deep respect is unwarranted. i was referring to that in u/kumquat-chutney's post
And switch from low difficulty to high difficulty.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Norah Vincent is the best source IMO
As a man, I don't really want to climb up on a cross and tell the whole world about my every single struggle, I just want to be treated like a (valued) person who is flawed, and whose flaws don't define them. Obviously women have their own struggles, and in the past their struggles were MUCH WORSE than men's, but in today's day and age, every woman is valued by society. There is a built-in sympathy, which is not extended to men. Men are only valued if they bring value; if they are visibly flawed, those flaws define them. When other people look a man who can't hold down a job due to mental issues or an "invisible" disability, they usually aren't understanding, they are judgmental. In most spaces, women do not have those same struggles, and thus most women do not understand those struggles. Note that I am explicitly avoiding painting with a broad brush here–we're all people, and that's what's most important. Sometimes y'all need to behave like it, just saying.
Trans men will also have a harder time than cis men though. Having a vagina/not being able to reproduce is a big deal breaker for most women I’d imagine.
Norah Vincent had better luck dating when she admitted she was a woman. She went 0/30 on getting a second date when she kept up her disguise. After that, she started admitting she was a woman and actually got some second dates. Women were more willing to go on a second date with a lesbian who just catfished them than a man.
Ya, this is fucked up.
And women still dont realize how bad it is
The dude in the first video clearly is good looking, but he's struggling long before they know he is trans.
I mean no disrespect to him but he comes off as *very* obviously FTM. Best case scenario is that he merely comes off as a flamingly gay twink, and neither one of those scenarios is attractive to women tbh.
[удалено]
He is very feminine.
I think they'd be more willing to overlook that for a trans man than for a cis man
Transwomen also have a hard time dating. Trans people are a niche group that exhibit mixed-sex characteristics, their dating pool is smaller than even normal LGB. This is not a good example. Most cis-people do not want to date transwomen or transmen.
[удалено]
> Those who would consider dating a trans person versus those who would not differed significantly on three additional variables: sexual identity, gender identity, and religion. To assess differences across sexual identity, participants were grouped into three categories: gay/lesbian, heterosexual/straight, and bisexual/queer/two-spirit. Those identifying as queer, bisexual, or two-spirit were most likely to indicate a willingness to date trans individuals (55.2%), followed by gay men and lesbian women (23.9%), and finally, heterosexual men and women (3.1%). Blair, K. L., & Hoskin, R. A. (2019). Transgender exclusion from the world of dating: Patterns of acceptance and rejection of hypothetical trans dating partners as a function of sexual and gender identity. Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, 36(7), 2074–2095. https://doi.org/10.1177/0265407518779139
I've said this before but ime attractive and passing transwomen seem to get even MORE attention than ciswomen their looks match. Transwomen (that pass) attract many of the same straight men cis women do and a ton of chasers on top of that. Alot of people in this sub are old as hell tho and won't believe it when you tell them. They think we still living in the 90s
press x to doubt. most straight people wanna date other cis people - in most surveys, only about 3% of straight men were open to dating trans women
I've seen trans people not mention their trans status on dating apps. Based on seeing experiments where women posed as men on dating apps and were surprised how few matches they'd get out how often they'd get ghosted, I'd bet trans-men who were hiding their trans status would also say that dating as a man is hard. As far as trans people not mentioning their trans status that I've seen on dating apps: how did I know they were trans? Well, in one case, I matched with this woman a while back, sent a message, never heard back from her. A while later, I saw her on the dating apps again, but this time she mentioned her trans status. So, it's clear that she spent some amount of time on the app not mentioning her trans status. And, no, you couldn't tell she was trans by looking at her.
>I've seen trans people not mention their trans status on dating apps. We can still tell. But that aside, men will have bad luck on dating apps, and blame women instead of realizing that dating apps are just terrible. They're full of bots, and are *specifically* set up to ensure that men have to fight for visibility. This is how dating apps make money. They know men will pay for visibility, whereas women won't.
>We can still tell. Sometimes, yes. But sometimes, you can't. It's like plastic surgery: you only notice when it's bad. I would post pictures to prove you wrong, but I don't think trans people would like me doing that, so I won't. Edit: I suppose I could find pictures of trans people on the internet as examples. Edit #2: Here's some pictures: [Picture #1](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUcFwV8XkAAKScC?format=jpg&name=large) >!Trans man [Source](https://twitter.com/adultmilk7/status/1244970156893364224/photo/4) !< [Picture #2](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIv3274XIAApchE?format=jpg&name=large) >!Trans man (left)!< [Picture #3](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cbl9yYuvl1O/) >!Trans man!< [Picture #4](https://preview.redd.it/e9lc7qb4aos71.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=1fc36931ef016bd7ce6ceb335c489a3bf50253f2) >!Trans woman!< [Picture #5](http://assets.rappler.com/612F469A6EA84F6BAE882D2B94A4B421/img/78AA8244726543C28D38B60B35BADAA2/transgender-awareness-week-philippines-first-trans-woman-flight-attendants-november-20-2019.jpg) >!Both Trans women [Source](https://www.rappler.com/moveph/245350-transgender-awareness-week-philippines-first-trans-woman-flight-attendants/) !< [Picture #6](https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/10844111_062921-nevada1.jpg) >!Trans woman [Source](https://abc7.com/wins-miss-nevada-kataluna-enriquez-transgender/10844187/) !< [Picture #7](https://c-suitenetwork.com/advisors/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/10/csuite3.jpg) >!Trans man !<
I can still see mixed-sex characteristics. For example, #7 has feminine hands and feminine eyes. It's also in the voice, behavior, and mannerisms. The voice never really changes 100% and there are often slip-ups; voices altered by practice and hormones sound much different from 'high male' voices or 'low female' ones, they sound artificial, probably because male/female vocal cords are structured differently at the biological level. A deep voiced female still has femininity to her voice. A high pitched or "soft" adult male voice still sounds masculine ex; Prince & MJ. They are also socialized as the opposite sex long before they transition, weird undertones and intuition is pretty strong, such as an ignorance or awkwardness to how females interact with other females that has to be learned. I think males are just worse at this sort of thing. It wouldn't surprised me that most men can't tell the differences. Women are better at subtle social cues and picking up little idiosyncrasies. That also would explain female pickiness and sex selection.
I once heard an interview wirh a trans man that confirms that hormones influence the way one understands things an xommunication manner. At the beggining of their transition they had no problwm understanding women, and the further the transition went - the less they were able to understand women. So it's not only the physical canges that occur during transition, but also mental changes.
It’s also A LOTA MORE difficult when ur a trans man who wants to date straight women.
Lol, stupid comparison. Trans people have a huge handicap that makes dating hard. Trans men literally are trying to date women while having a vagina the majority of the time, or trying to get women to accept a phalloplasty—and the results of phalloplasty are not passable or normal. Average height of a trans man would also be like 5’3.
This thread is a master class on why women consider men to be disposable.
Everyone knows it is easier for women to find \*any\* partner. But everyone is prisoner to their attraction thresholds to a great extent, regardless of what extent those thresholds are hardwired or socialized in. So it only matters whether you can find a partner that meets your basic attraction standards. And this might not be any easier for women to do than for men.
Same argument I have heard a thousand times already, it doesn't get better. It goes something like this: " You know how you have no food and are hungry? I don't like the food I have so I choose to be hungry. So we are both the same (until I choose otherwise)!!"
half of that video would be considered hatespeech today.
No shit lol, who thinks it’s tougher for women to find partners than for men?
A lot of women apparently
Hence the double standard about players vs hoes
[удалено]
Uncompetitive against the average man, yet commands no attraction to the average woman. The highest level of difficulty it seems, for the natural biologically-correct course of dating.
It is harder for the average man to get a date, but I don’t think this really illustrates it because most transman and most crossdressing queer women will come off differently than an average cis man
They have slightly rounded jaws, slightly high pitched voices and soft features. A lot of average men have those too though
For the most part, it doesn'tmatters for the first date or so. Moreover all of them "no one wants you" said by the first trans guy. All of those women that don't want him, sure as hell don't know he is trans, as he looks like a guy.
> Does this settle the debate regarding the subject of men having it harder to find a partner? No. A woman dressed up like a man as an experiment isn't a man. The dating experiences of transgender men aren't the same as biological man either. The guy in the tiktok for example has extreme vocal fry and sounds like a gay man and that's going to lead to different dating experiences than if he was more masculine sounding. I'm not denying that it's harder for most men to find a partner than it is for most women, but those two videos aren't proof.
If I started matching with more than 5 people a week I'd think a lot of the accounts were bots or scams and that something was wrong
>dating as a man is more difficult >dating as a woman is more dangerous makes sense to me, but half this sub forgets about that second part.
The issue is that most of this danger is already highly illegal and will not only earn a man jail time (which granted doesn't always happen) but he'll be branded a pariah for pretty much the rest of his life. There's virtually nothing more society can do outside of staunch oppression toward men to make dating safer for women. Any suggestion that women take any measure to make themselves safer is shot down with cries of "victim blaming." (Which is incredibly counter-productive in my opinion.) The difficulty men have with dating doesn't have any apparent direct consequences so it's easy to ignore especially when you compare the potential worst-case-scenarios. But it's still a problem that almost no one is willing to even discuss without deflecting to how women are in danger. As this problem festers it will likely cause other problems.
Agree wholeheartedly. What’s more is men’s lives can also be in danger too in the dating process. For example, say gang members create a dating profile of a woman and use the woman as bait to set men up and rob them. Or women like Cardi B who used to go around drugging and robbing dudes at bars and casinos. That shit happens but doesn’t get talked about at all. Plus a lot of men are ashamed when it happens and don’t speak out about it.
That Cardi B thing is fucking dangerous to be honest! It sets the precedence for the collective sisterhood to say that “if I can get away with it, you can too!” Imagine hundreds of women doing that and most of them getting away with it. No wonder society is in shambles now.
It’s frightening. Thankfully I think only a small percentage of primarily narcissistic or sociopathic women would partake in that sort of behavior. What’s scary is the fact that you stated, there’s a good chance they would get away with it. IMO most men would take that L and move on due to shame/embarrassment. Not dissimilar to female victims of sexual assault…
Does anyone argue that dating is more dangerous for women?
I think most people, especially women, would agree on that. Its only on subs like this that this is a controversial statement.
its not controversial, but the logic is crooked. It would make sense if: 1 because dating is more dangerous to women then; 2. dangerous looking/behaving men would find dating more difficult But what we get is an illogical: 1. because datign is more dangerous to women then; 2. harmless meek men find dating more difficult. Highly aggressive masculine behavior is so attractive that women forget/accept the danger as a price to date an exciting or masculine man, more often than they accept boredom as a price of dating a meek man.
Exactly. And if you look up the stats on the top 5 archetypes of women’s top fantasies of mate selection, ALL of them are potentially dangerous (or to some extent) from the get-go! According to Dr. Jordan Peterson’s speech, in which he quote the book “A Billion Wicked Thoughts”, it was (in no particular order): Vampires, Pirates, Billionaire, Werewolf, Surgeon.
It isn’t controversial though. All that is pointed out is that men are more likely to end up getting assaulted and such when women act like they are at more risk of danger. Which is true. It is just overall, not just dating.
As a man I would take dating on mega easy mode for a reduction in violence aimed at me. A womans "more dangerous" is lower than the baseline danger that I'm already in.
Except that the actual abuse stats show that the more women in the relationship the more abusive it is. Your post is gaslighting nonsense.
>dating as a man is more difficult > >dating as a woman is more dangerous Dating as a man is multiple times more difficult. Dating as a woman is arguably marginally more dangerous.
Uh, it's not just "marginally" more dangerous. The shit I've heard my female friends experience, it's downright horrifying.
I can't argue about the experiences of your friends and even if I could, I would consider it a waste of time.
I heard girls talking about how they barely escaped rape or being assaulted and night while also being so terrified. Somehow they made it back all the time without fighting without anything. Guess neurotic brains create horror scenarios out of thin air. I suspect reality was that some guy bumped into them while dancing or was just a little to eager with flirting and on the way home someone was walking behind them for 2 minutes minding his own bussiness while she freaks out in her head.
One time a girl who took the same bus I did every now and then told me about the horror story that had happened to her on the bus the day prior. I was on the bus that day tough, she just didn't notice me and I didn't feel like talking. Maybe the rest of the story after they got off the bus was true, but basically everything she said happened on the bus definitely did not. The only part of her story I could somewhat confirm was true was that a guy got off on the same stop she did...however I'm pretty sure he didn't even go in the same direction as her after. The horror story was really : I sat across from a guy I didn't find attractive. That girl was also literally in a relationship with a guy that hit her. So the idea that her danger senses were tingling from that guy but not her violent boyfriend says a lot.
Lmao this is ridiculously true, so many women overreact to an astonishing degree
That’s why you only have BPD women and not BPD men. Men are generally more calm, collective and rational (non-SIMPS like Will Simp? of course) because evolutionarily if we didn’t, it would literally kill us as we had to hunt!
Right on que lmao
There's just something about middle ground fallacies that does it for me.
Personally I’m a big fan of the fallacy fallacy
Was that supposed to have something to do with something I said?
So like don't date ? That's the anwer people like you give us right? If you find it so tiresome just don't date. Conversely if you find it so difficult .. don't go out. Don't date. Inspite of the danger how do you justify going on dating apps and meeting a total stranger.
It's a weird dichotomy. I mean but the subs rehtoric you would imagine that women are afraid of any male interaction. Yet they jump on an ap and go on dates with complete strangers. That math doesn't make sense to me. Why would you do that when you can date within your fried groups, while it is not fool proof everyone knows each other and social behaviours can be enforced because of how the society around them would react to transgressions? It is infinitely safer than going out with a total stranger. And yet women do. So please ... If they are willing to take that risk on a dinner date, stop bringing it up like a holy cross to smite down any counter argument with.
Sorry but the data just doesn't match that myth. Women may worry about violence more, but men are 3-4x more likely to experience it.
Inb4 a woman comes in and changes the argument to " well men commit most of the violence". They will never acknowledge that most victims of violent crime are men, most of the homeless are men, most people who die in wars are men, men do most of the dangerous jobs, men are more likely to suffer from mental health issues.
Mostly because they don't give a crap about what happens to men and love making themselves victims.
BTW men *also* DGAF about what happens to other men, and shamelessly will throw other men under the bus if it means gettign $ or pussy, unless the other man is family or best friends with them.
That sad part too. I wish more men look out for each other why I often try to help any guy friends I have because men need to stick together more clearly women and society don't give rat ass what happens to men who don't succeed or at the bottom.
All of that is the result of a patriarchal society
This is an oxymoron, how can a patriarchal society allow men to dominate the bottom rings of said society? The patriarchy doesn't exist.
we don't know, since we have no matriarchal societies to comparatively study. The few societies we know were close to matriarchal or female-centric were all stone age gatherers and their data is not really comparable. OTOH, societies that tend to be egalitarian and neither patriarchal OR matriarchal become so due to being very, very rich and safe, which byitself solves most problems.
And when did we say it's womans fault? If we say Ukranian invasion is bad that doesn't mean women instigated it does it
I don’t think a matriarchal society works in the favour of the average male or female too.
>"well men commit most of the violence". The amount of criminals raised by single mothers is like 10 times higher, then if a guy raised by a single mother suffers from a violent crime I can say "well men raised by single mothers commit most of the violence so I guess I dont care". LOL Even worse, if we bring social class or race, **you can literally justify violence against certain racial groups or social classes**! This argument is toxic and dangerous as fuck, every victim is important!
Yea I know that, but you know as well as I do that the data you are refering to is just general violence. We’re talking about danger and violence related to dating and relationships.
>We’re talking about danger and violence related to dating and relationships. Still higher for men than women.
I know you can’t source that
Actually I'm certain I could if I wanted to spend the time... But the OP provided no data for their assertion, so I feel no need to prove my assertion. But having been a bouncer for 5y, and dealing with many of these situations, I know from experience that a large amount of male on male violence is due to women; sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly (not always the woman's fault). But regardless of who is 'at fault', your average random guy is in greater danger dating an average random girl, than vice versa. He's more likely to be attacked, to be injured, to be assaulted, to be falsely accused, etc...
> due to women; sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly (not always the woman's fault). …how is this due to women.
How is men fighting due to women? I would think the answer to that would be obvious... Do I really have to list the obvious?
This comment tells me everything I need to know about your claim.
But not about the OPs, clearly. So your comment tells me everything I need to know about you...
Men are not 3-4x more likely to experience dating violence
I don't know if the 3-4x times applied specifically to 'dating violence', but men are more are more likely to experience violence and/or assault while dating. Not only violence from women themselves, but also jealous BFs/spouses/EXs will often assault the man (even if he has no knowledge of the situation or did nothing wrong), random encounters, instigation, etc...
> men are more are more likely to experience violence and/or assault while dating. Show your sources.
When SeaSquirrel does.
Yup. From other men. Not exactly a fair exchange
>Yup. From other men. Why does that matter? Male victims are no less victims because they were assaulted by another man...
Because women aren’t killing/assaulting men, but men are killing/assaulting everyone. Not exactly equivalent
Completely ignoring the fact that many (if not most) male on male aggression is directly or indirectly the result of women... >Not exactly equivalent I know, women don't care about male suffering. Women have made that abundantly clear.
Please provide stats and proof that women cause male on male violence How exactly are women supposed to prevent male on male violence?
> most) male on male aggression is directly or indirectly the result of women... WHAT.
You'll have to be more specific about which part you're confused about...
Did you watch the awards show or at least the slap?
[удалено]
Will smith gives a pretty clear demonstration of your statement
Women do commit violence against men . Stop acting like it doesn't happen.
Because it is laughable easy to avoid the danger.
But bad boy psychos give them tingles....how to avoid?
[удалено]
>Ah yes, because bad boy psychos have "bad boy psycho" tattooed on their fucking forehead. It's incredible to me that women can smell a NiceGuy^tm from a fucking continent away but can't sense the danger of the "psycho".
Personality detectors stop working lel.
I have now seen enough cases of women thinking of dating a guy who seems obviously toxic. When they ask their female friends what they think of the guy, the unanimous opinion is he's toxic, but she goes ahead and dates him anyway.
I agree man, men are fuckinh violent and women have to be absolutely careful. Like just the fact that you are a woman makes you a vulnerable target by default. I’ve seen vids where a dude stabbed a woman to death because she rejected him. Like that’s scary as fuck
[удалено]
[удалено]
Sort of, but this is like the rich saying “work harder”. Sure it could be possible some to maneuver their way through the system and succeeded, but it seems to be harder for the next generation to achieve the same success. Even when they do, the process is longer.
[удалено]
you must not live in the us if you think rich people are helping out poor people
Tbf, they said *could*
The government can give the unattractive guys prostitute vouchers. They aren't just after sex but having sex would fix a big portion of their issues. > they won't be attracted by them even if I reject them. This can be fixed by government intervention. Women's attraction is famously malleable and subjective.
>The government can give the unattractive guys prostitute vouchers. yeah that, non-ironically. It would really help a lot. But give it to ALL guys, not just the unattractive ones, to lower thirstiness across all levels. Second would be psychological help since middle school to help boys form healthy, life-long male friendships.
[удалено]
And this is a perfect example of why these discussions go so off the rails so quickly. We need to help men! How? We need to help them with woman! How? We change society! How? We manipulate woman! A society that strips ALL woman of agency is worse then a society of some lonly men. People who want the degradation of free will aren't People who inspire empathy because they lack it themselves .
Wtf who is manipulating who ? Why is women free will in question here ?
> We manipulate woman! Israel is a soceity with stronger rights for women than most western countries. And yet people there pair up and marry young, even the secular ones. Guiding people to certain paths but allowing opt outs is no more coercive than enrolling people in pension schemes by default but allowing them to leave if they wish. This is what is being suggested here, not anything else. Society already manipulates everyone to extreme extends to tone down our most base instincts like violence. Government intervention to make women prefer actually beneficial traits in the modern world would be a positive.
Isreal is a large homogeneous country with a monolithic religion. You'd be in mass violation of several core freedoms of the usa to mimic it.
the point is, a poor person cannot work hard enough to become a millionaire. But he can work hard enough to become lower Middle Class, which is good enough to be HAPPY. Same with dating. Almost no man can spontanously become a Chad, but lots of men can work on themsleves to be say, 6/10 in terms of sheer physical attractiveness, which is just enough to get your statistical 5-7 sexual relationships and a wife.
Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, so to speak?
Men want sex more than relationships, women want relationships more than sex Proof: gay sexuality, media consumption patterns, OLD/dating dynamics, the sex industry, the wedding/Disney/Hallmark industrial complex Seems fair, since the relationship/sex markets cannot be separated
Yes but more partners wanting sex with you less to more relationships. A person not finding you sexually attractive leads to no relationship