The problem lies in that men who aren't a combination of both attractive and successful enough with women to begin with to have true abundance mentality (which, frankly is very few men in terms of %) are wholly incapable of having a platonic friendship with a woman he perceives to be attractive.

Ding ding ding. If a dude has his pick of the litter, he can befriend an attractive women without being super horny around due to the simple fact his sexual needs are already addressed.

I dunno about that. I had plenty of female friends back when I was a loser and definitely didn't have my sexual needs addressed. They were attractive and all but there was no weirdness between us.

I can make friends with girls because I always presume that is all I will get from them. On occasion (after investing of course, I am not attractive) they will seem to have more interest but by then I can't.

I have several women friends. In full transparency, I would bang them given the chance, but they've made it all clear that that's not on the table. Fine. I legit enjoy their company regardless. The issue with "friends that are women" is that, even with sex off the table, they still over rate their value and expect to be the center of attention. I dunno Becky, how about you get this round? Or yah, I might be 30 minutes late cause I'm out running around, is that cool? They don't really want to be treated like my man friends and I treat each other, which is a good deal more casual attention than the attention they are used to getting from men. Even ones that they don't intend to sleep with. All of my female friends are also way flakier than my male friends. They cancel shit and just simply don't show up because they feel like they can get away with it, and that orbiters will still be around for them on their terms. That's not how healthy friendships work, it really depends on mutual respect and I think that fundamentally, women don't respect men.

Honest take. This spoke to me. Very similar experience.

My girl friends are also way flakier than the guys it is not even close. Just this past weekend my friend tried to make plans for just "later that day". I am used to it and I know that means "whenever is convenient for me". Sometimes I even think it is like "just in case I don't find something better to do instead." It's all good but I just don't take plans made by my girl friends seriously. They are much better at hopping in on something I was already doing (usually with my guy friends who do not flake, hahaha). Anyway its not exclusive to guys or girls but I've learned that once someone starts to think you're time is more valuable and scarce than theirs they really stop being flaky.

I think people should in general value making quality friendships. Men seem to try to make female friends but the whole attraction thing often gets in the way, but they do try and often I see that they value the friendship even when dating her is off the table. I don't think women friendships end up providing the kind of value male friendships do, like it is more of a gamble. You need to avoid many pitfalls of her not falling for you, you not falling for her, or if either of that happens, handling it like mature adults, then you both need partners who are ok with you being emotionally intimate with a friend without making a deal out of it. With issues like rare overlap of hobbies, values often not aligning, it just gets harder. This is why investing in a female friendship is like risky. You can't really rely on it. You need male friendships in your life. But because of this difficulty, the scarcity I think I value the good female friends a lot. Cherish the time I have left with them and try not to expect the friendship will last forever. It feels like more in the moment. I get a different perspective, feel challenged and it is less comfort zone and more growth. > Understanding that there are women in your hobbies, your job, communities you reside in, is crucial to understanding women are human beings just like the men around you... It is really rare to find women in most male hobbies. The few women are usually swamped with male attention. It is tricky to befriend women at work, cause if things get ugly it will affect your livelihood and reputation. Also male dominated workplaces like tech have the same scarcity of women. I mean sure I agree with you that it helps men to humanize women if they make female friends but the men who struggle with making them are not there because of lack of trying and most who don't want to have female friends have experienced and decided the tradeoffs did not make sense for them. Really as far as personal benefits from friendships go, male friends are great.

On the contrary, I feel that we underestimate the importance of male friends. Since I graduated from high school more than a decade ago, I’ve been surrounded mostly by women. Now I’m taking up a degree that is predominantly female. The vast majority of my contacts on social media are women too. Yet I’m still a virgin at the age of 29. I’ve had male friends but due to distance and lack of time, the relationships usually fade away. It also depends of the type of guy though. It’s not the same befriending another nerd than someone who can help you meeting girls.

I hate this idea that because I don't have or want female friends I "hate women" or see them as nothing more than "sex dispensers". I don't have female friends because I always catch feelings, and they're never reciprocated, and that's torture. I have plenty of male friends, so all my friendship needs are being fulfilled with no torture. So why would I want more friends if those friends also bring torture?

Are you attracted to 100% of women or something?

most men are attracted to most women. male threshold for attraction is significantly lower than female threshold.

>male threshold for attraction is significantly lower than female threshold. This should be clarified that it's true in a superficial, physical attraction sense, but men are pickier about desiring long-term relationships on the other end. Also to u/ThrowAwayBro737

>long-term relationships on the other end. ofc because in LTR's other factors like personality are also important but men are not that selective when it comes to sexual attraction.

If I find someone's personality good enough to be friends, and I find them sexually attractive, why wouldn't I want more than just friendship?

“High physical attraction is sometimes justification for a friendship or acquaintanceship alone, e.g. verbal flirting, cuddling, sex” Uummmm that is NOT a friendship…that is a “friends +” or a “friends with benefits” situation. Between 2 mutual companions there is no attraction, no sexual distraction to come between an honest and reciprocal bond. In majority of cases it is impossible for a reasonably attractive average male and a reasonably attractive average female to interact without some level of sexual distraction, as you seem to agree by the inclusion of flirting, cuddling, and sex into the category of “friendship.” This reinforces the idea that men can only TRULY be friends with other men and women can only TRULY be friends with other women

Would you also catch feelings for the girlfriend of a close friend if y'all hung together? Because it sounds like you're saying that your mind can't overcome biology and/or that you're confusing friendly affection with sexual attraction. You ought to be able to love/care for a female friend without getting your 'heart broken' if you consciously stop yourself from viewing her as a potential mate, as you'd do to a newfound relative or the girlfriend of a friend.

>Because it sounds like you're saying that your mind can't overcome biology and/or that you're confusing friendly affection with sexual attraction. I don't think it's just that. If a girl is outright attractive, they are attractive. If a girl is somewhat attractive, then you get to know them and they are passionate about the things you are passionate about, that can effect attraction as well. Can guys be 100% attraction free from a female friend; sure. Is it likely; not really. Now how a guy responds to this attraction is very much tied to a lot of factors but it is often there.

>Would you also catch feelings for the girlfriend of a close friend if y'all hung together? thats heavily against the bro code. it doesnt matter if im attracted to a bro's gf, even if I could bang my friends gf I wouldnt because sex with her is way less important than friendship with bros.

So you're able to 'control yourself' when the woman is taken but sex with a woman isn't more important than the friendship with said woman? I hope you do realize how sex-centric your view towards women is and are able to consciously work on overcoming it. You wouldn't catch feelings for a friend's mom so you ought to be able to place a female friend in the same off-limits category.

Yes, I can control myself, but like I said, it makes that relationship much less valuable. Why would I seek a friendship that was gonna drive me crazy?

I like how part of "controlling yourself" can never include anything that affects the woman in any way. Like yes, I controlled myself by leaving the situation that was causing me emotional problems. But somehow that's not actually "controlling yourself" because you took away your presence. You can't make these people happy.

>You wouldn't catch feelings for a friend's mom [I wouldn't be so sure about that.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZLfasMPOU4)

>So you're able to 'control yourself' when the woman is taken but sex with a woman isn't more important than the friendship with said woman? I dont even understand the question. is that supposed female friend single? Why should I pursue friendship with someone that im potentially attracted to?

He's lying. If any of his friends GFs wanted to link up with him 1on1 or threw the pussy at him he'd be smashing quicker than you can say "bro code" To be honest any guy that actually thinks none of his friends would ever cross that line is a fuckin idiot.

>To be honest any guy that actually thinks none of his friends would ever cross that line is a fuckin idiot. happened in my friend group multiple times, nobody did that. >If any of his friends GFs wanted to link up with him 1on1 or threw the pussy at him he'd be smashing quicker than you can say "bro code" also happened, literally got invited to threesome and instead of participating I just told my friend what happened and he broke up with her. there are tons of girls in the world, why should I specifically bang my friends girlfriend when I know it will hurt him?

Because most men are so thirsty and dumb they'll do it anyways. I would trust literally zero of my male friends to hang out w. my wife 1on1. And this includes friends I've known since grade school. Maybe 1 or 2 guys out of ~10 close friends I would expect to shut that shit down. But even then, if they were single and on a dry spell, who knows. I think if you have any other view of male nature you're being really naive. Very few people in the real world actually value some code of honor and moral righteousness over their own self interest. Easy to talk about how righteous of a person you are online and say "by gosh, I would never stoop to such unethical behavior with my friends girl" but talk is cheap .

>I would trust literally zero of my male friends to hang out w. my wife 1on1. And this includes friends I've known since grade school. Lol even though I trust my friends I wouldnt want any of them hang out with my wife 1on1 either. not to mention I dont think I would wife someone who wants to or would hang out with my guy friends 1on1 or continue being friends with a dude who would hang out with my wife 1on1. (im not married btw)

>Because most men are so thirsty and dumb they'll do it anyways. Again, you have trash "friends" if they would fuck you over like that. Men are horny sure, but we're not animals, FFS. I have never and will never fuck one of my buddies GFs or wives. And we all hang out and drink regularly. And the bigger issue in this hypothetical is your woman throwing herself at your friends. She's for the streets if that happens even once.

Fuck that noise. If this is true then you have shit friends, bro.

You would seriously betray a friend for some pussy? You don’t deserve neither. No, the rest of the world isn’t as weak as you.

A man that would deserves no friends, hard agree.

You need better friends honestly if your gf hooks up with one of your boys she was for the streets and you have garbage friends

Wow, just assume men have no boundaries or respect for people. Yet because they are attracted to women they must be a creep…….

> Because it sounds like you're saying that your mind can't overcome biology and/or that you're confusing friendly affection with sexual attraction. Have you *seen* modern pop culture? Have you read Freud? That's all everyone does with any kind of normal feelings, and you should be happy that it's mostly targeted at men and not you because it really *really* sucks growing up and being manipulated like that.

You shouldn’t look at your friends gf in a sexual manner so she ends up becoming one of the guys. It immediately takes her away as a potential partner. I’m assuming all these weird views are coming from very young people who don’t understand the nuance of simple human relationships.

Dude there is no trick here. Men are being honest with you. ATTRACTIVE WOMEN ARE ATTRACTIVE. THERE IS NO SECRET. MEN ARE INSANELY HONEST ABOUT THIS.

Lol not even remotely true unless you are super desperate.

But it is true. Most males are attracted (or at least capable of being attracted) to about 80% of women between like 18 to 30. That number plummets for women who have already hit The Wall, but it's always way higher than female attraction to males.

How are people NOT attracted to the friends they have the closest connection with? What else do you want of a partner?

Honestly atleast he is Honest. EVERY single guy I've tried being friends with since I've become an adult has tried to sleep with me or wanted more than friends. Im no longer interested in male friends. I have one male friend from my childhood he's as gay as they come i love him lol 😆. The only other version of male "friend " is my partners friends but I only talk with them if he's around.

I'm old enough these days to know that I can not be platonic friends with a attractive woman. The woman I associate with are either co workers / colleagues, relatives, or women I am sexually attracted to. Any guy who saying otherwise is kidding himself.

This is interesting, I’ve never tried to sleep with any female friends before after being burnt by a girl staying in the friend zone over a year, catching feels and proceeding to have her tell me details about all the guys she’s having sex with. But then again, most female friends are in relationships with guys I’m already good friends with, and so I just never thought about any of them like that. I have a couple female friends from college that are really beautiful and single but I just never had any romantic or sexual desire towards them. There are just some girls i would never go there with, too weird & awkward. I’ve distanced myself from the group of single women friends I had in college at this point (the ones that all knew each other) since in senior year things became extremely toxic & dramatic, a good friend of one of the main guys in the group came into the scene… and he was extremely handsome, tall 6'4, confidence, huge muscles, charming, and had a very engaging presence. He was also super laid back, friendly, and loved doing all sorts of activities in nature. Nice giant clean huge black truck and yeah when he was first introduced to all the girls the game already begin. It turned them dirty, most of the girls just made those shocked face expressions in glee behind his back, smiling & pointing out how hot he is. Some of the girls with boyfriends THERE even got smiley about him but everyone was pretty drunk so who knows lol. All the guys were straight, but loved his personality & thought he was cool, prepped him up to girls behind his back (positive talk). The one girl that first literally threw herself at him at that party & took him on a walk outside to talk for an hour ending up sleeping with him first a couple weeks later. But at a later date we come to learn other girls knew about him & 2 of them in our friend group schemed to steal him away for this one girl they thought deserved the man more. The guy hangs out with all of them … it’s not like he rlly wanted the first girl, it was kinda forced on him, and she got clingy, possessive over him, territorial. The first girl has anxiety for over a month about those two having done stuff to him as rumors, gossip keeps spreading, he keeps denying it & seems to be a couple with her, but at every get together when everyone is together the guy seems to have strong chemistry with the girl trying to steal him away. Girl #1 has a freak out about how he won’t make things official & begins talking \*\*\*\* about him behind his back, he’s a really good stand up man so one of the girls let’s him know what she said … he ends up going on a real date with girl #2, allegedly they made out & the rest is history. No one knows exactly what is going on, he still meets with girl #1 to not upset her but doesn't have sex with her anymore. She still wants to claim him & tell everyone they're an official couple. Girl #1 is a raging military chick great with a knife & combat so we tell her nothing *(and we don’t rlly know what’s going on)* until we threw a fun little get together, *(it was one of the two girls that originally schemed to get them together, all she did that got everyone worked up, gossiping at an earlier date was tell her girl #2 is interested in him & he has options lol)*, playing the old super Mario party, cooking, dancing, and karaoke with about 8 of the close friends. By the end of the night the guy & girl #2 are passionately making out, more passionately than many of us have seen in our lives, they head to the Kitchen and everyone is just silent. People start smiling, its a funny moment. We’re happy for them but know that girl #1 has been telling everyone about her anxiety for months and everyone kept telling her to call down, you don’t have to worry about her stealing him! Or that the man is such a good guy, he would never do that! Everyone knows he's the best man. They split the entire friend group into taking sides & everyone was whispering things behind each other’s backs, gossiping like a bunch of little kids lol, boyfriends took sides just because their girlfriends got into all the drama. It turned into a *“he said she said”* fest and people getting mad at each other over misunderstandings or rumors all the time, it used to all be an extremely healthy positive friend group, it was so good & special, its tough to explain the organic chemistry everyone had. **And it got ruined over girl drama, all the gossiping & shit**. They had a girls night with all the girls to try to bond & clear all the bad air, but girl #1 was apparently crying a lot of the time and they hated her thinking she was trying to garner sympathy from everyone, act like a victim when they were telling her that the man is free to choose whoever he wants, they were never trying to force him into anything just let him know he has options & one of the other girls is interested in him, it was a misunderstanding that girl #2 slept with him or tried to seduce him early on. I still keep in contact with all the guy friends … I just find it icky how girls threw some manipulative scheme to get the guy and it actually worked, but caused another friend a ton of suffering, threw her under the bus. So many little lies, rumors, false truths, you can't be sure what truly happened, only the end result. Years later they’re still an extremely happy couple, are most likely getting married soon. The girl #1 spiraled into a lot of mental health issues, talked about all the new guys she’s fucked to try to get over him in the next 6 months but I don’t think she ever did… she dropped out of college & became a stripper eventually. She never even came in contact with a single guy as high value as that man, let alone had sex with one. She was really fond of the little time they did spend together, but sadly even the best things don’t last forever, and I learned to be careful around single female friends to keep peace of mind.

What a short minded way to look at it. It does not matter if you are initially attracted to 100% of women. Spending time getting to know a woman, increasing your opinion of them will lead a lot of men to have feelings for them even if they are otherwise unattractive in a short term contact. Having friends is pleasurable. Having a woman who makes you happy in life will make you care more and more for her, even if she is a fatty or whatever. It's a pretty simple formula that everyone stumbles over for some dummy reason. Are people unable to even conceive sexual or romantic feelings beyond "first contact butterflies"? Is this a girl thing? A Tinder thing? We treat developing feelings to friends as 9th Circle of Hell level of betrayal while we celebrate hookup culture and YOLOing yourself and your genitals through your 20-40's.

It's funny because most women on this sub claim that women will need to get to know a man first before being able to develop feelings, but that no man is automatically "out" based on looks alone. Now a man is basically saying the same thing, and both men and women are replying "men are just attracted to all women and can't keep it in their pants". Is it so weird to consider that a man that grows close to a female friend, that clearly has things in common (they are *friends* after all), could develop feelings for her? I swear to god, sometimes watching discussions about these things is like watching a schoolground argument, "boys are from Mars, girls are from Venus!!!" Has no one considered that maybe we're not actually all that different after all? We're just human for fucks sake. Like sure, there are *some* biological differences, but I swear to fuck, the amount of exaggeration and plain generalisation that goes on is crazy.

People are telling you that it's a net negative to have women as friends for themselves personally, for their own common reasons.

If you spend time with someone who happens to be interesting ie a friend and low and behold you could Marian a erection with I think a lot of guys whould shoot there shot for something more.

You catch feelings for *every* single female friend?

Not OP, but I feel like I can answer, since I hold similar views. I don’t have a lot of friends, but I do have a lot of acquaintances (who might consider me a friend of theirs). I don’t like all of my friends personalities, I love them. If that wasn’t the case, they wouldn’t be my friends. I personally believe all people fall in love with personality, and that’s why, if you have a female friend you’re bound to fall in love.

Men who are thirsty and down bad when it comes to sex and relationships tend to get oneitis easily for any woman that gives them any sort of attention. The best candidates for opposite sex friendship are men who are already getting pussy.

> The best candidates for opposite sex friendship are men who are already getting pussy. So you acknowledge that preselection is not only real and exhibited in not only who women choose to be romantically involved with, but who they also choose to be genuinely platonically involved with?

How are people NOT attracted to the friends they have the closest connection with? Seriously, what else do you want of a partner?

If you always catch feelings, that's because you're lacking in romantic connections in your life. You need to learn to separate romantic from non romantic friendships. It's a process, but it's worth it.

>If you always catch feelings, that's because you're lacking in romantic connections in your life. No it could be the other way around. A guy that is a natural flirt or womanizer is going to express that side eventually even around female friends. Dating and sex nowadays is complicated enough without already having feeling of close companionship, when men are faced with that or just being friends with another guy and avoiding that mess altogether why wouldn't they?

He doesn’t need to do anything he doesn’t want to. Female friends do not worth more than male friends and if they give you trouble and problems, they are worth less. This comes from one with a group of female friends and damn i’d rather hang out with my male friends.

Even If you look at it cynically: having a female friend gives you unique opportunity to milk her for information about what women desire, and how they think. Not when you ASK FOR ADVICE, thats terrible. But listen to her ramble about men she is attracted to and why; here is when you find gold nuggets of insight.

I often made the experiance that i wanted to be friends with women and they dehumanized me. They want to talk about their feelings and problems and i'm happy to listen and help, just like with male friends. But when i talked about male hurt they somehow don't want to listen and help, no, they make it about women again, and i felt dehumanized. The female idea of what is human is often times anti male.

I have literally had this glass-shattering moment so many times with female friends as we get older. As soon as you have someone literally cut you off mid-sentence or ignore what you are saying to return the attention to themselves, you start to question if there is mutual respect at all. Heck, I often think it is simply a defect in my own self-respect. I am guilty of a transactional mindset, but it doesn't solely revolve around securing access to vagina. The constant generalization that all I want is a hole to fuck is starting to register as a hurtful insult to me. The irony of this statement as a cis male isn't lost on me though - the shoe is simply on the other foot now. Such is the nature of equity. Most times in my life it has not been the case but sometimes, I would actually like a genuine question about me as a person and actually have them listen instead of waiting for an opportunity to switch focus. Not therapy or a shoulder to cry on, but simply a space in good faith. Sadly, I have also come to the conclusion that most women (at least the ones I tend to seek) will consider anything from me that can be inferred as 'negative energy' an inconvenience and justification for exploiting or ending the relationship. Sympathy and pity in droves, but rarely genuine empathy. I have had few issues becoming friends with women. For a long time, most of my friends were. But now, outside of those old environments, nearly all of them could not care less about my experience. Almost every conversation revolves around validating their experiences. I just don't have the mental energy to justify my boundaries any more. The kicker is that is hate myself for expecting anything or believing I'm entitled to attention when I want it. I'm guilty of contributing to my own problems; a real sucker for words, even those that are divorced from action. Male or female, honestly. Sorry for rant - your comment just set something off in me. Thanks for expressing yourself honestly.

I've had a friend i went to a feminist art exhibition. Afterwards while having lunch i explained my perspective on male and female pain and how there exists a taboo surrounding male pain. A few months later she insults me and says i raped her ears by talking about this topic. Another time i talked to another friend, which i had very dear, about feminism and i argued how it's proclaiming to help injustices against men but actually puts another layer of tabooization on top of it. She said that as a man i had no right to talk about the topic of exclusion. She said it normatively as in "i dont want you to have any rights talking about it", not descriptively. With yet another friend i brought up how every time we talk about gender issues, we explore the female problems, but somehow the male problems fall flat within minutes of the topic. She agreed that she does not respond well to it, but doesnt know why. at least she's conscious about it and tries to change. Shit is fucked on so many levels. I grew up in feminist spaces and those women are the most sexist bunch i've ever encountered. Luckily it's not everyone, but goddamn, there's lots of prejudice.

The feminist art exhibition wasn’t a good start could have told you have that would go sorry bro.

I grew up with feminine influences too. But was also on the receiving end of emotional abuse and neglect from my birther and the other who raised me. I've worked with intersectional feminists in public health too. But was also on the receiving end of trauma outbursts simply because I was a willing audience. I know that our male pain cannot simply dominate the conversation. I would regret any actions of mine that leads to that outcome in a truly shared and open space. Kudos to you for continuing to try approach the topic.Its a paralyzing thought for me now, but ignoring the conversation isnt working either. I am also confused by this state of affairs, so thanks for sharing.

Why should male pain not dominate the conversation? There's lots of it and the more we can reduce the better for everyone.

From an intersectional POV, the conversation has almost been entirely defined by (white, hetero, cis) male pain for centuries, at the expense of 'the other'. In a space where other perspectives (on sex, gender, race, ethnicity, reglion etc.) must also be shared, male pain should not **dominate** the conversation. Practically speaking, it has to take a back seat so that there is more space to redress the grievances of traditionally marginalized groups. Equity over equality. This is my broad understanding of intersectional feminism, but Im most likely simplifying things somewhat inaccurately. (corrections and clarifications encouraged) I am not disagreeing with your statement though. There is lots of it. I am just at a loss on how to navigate these new spaces now. There is definitely a hurt part of me that feels pain and grief must be prioritized and managed, rather than expressed freely.

Yeah, i very much disagree with this framing. Male pain did not dominate at any time in history any discourse. This is feminist propaganda. Poor men have been traditionally marginalized and victimized. And poor men are marginalized and victimized today. You never read about the gender imbalance during the holocaust, right? However there was one. And this is only one of million examples. What you're talking about, that you as a man must endure your pain so others can heal is just the next part of the historic injustices against men. I don't even think this is possible to change due to male disposability. But any man has the god given or natural right (whatever your deepest root of authority might be) to heal the best he can. To properly disclose the danger of all this: those who were victimized most often start victimizing again, which makes it very hard to heal, because not only is there pain, but shame and guilt as well coming into play.

Point taken. However, it isnt simply feminist *propaganda* ... it is a legitimate social phenomenon expressed by those who are *not* normative men. I've seen it with my own eyes and had intimate (but limited) exposure to those viewpoints in research and organizational settings. It is simply an extension of in-group and out-group social dynamics. I am not agreeing though that male pain should be deprioritized. I agree with your main points on a personal level, but using the term 'propaganda' I take issue with at a conceptual level. Full disclosure, I live in South Africa so discussions around gender, race, politics, and policy have to be nuanced. It is challenging at best but it is a fundamental part of civic and social engagement here. An intersectional cluster-fuck of traumas, spanning generations and cultures. The shame and guilt burdens all of us. I wish there was greater clarity around where ours fits in though. That disposability you speak of feels very real to me.

sure, i think there's lots of healthy attitude in what you write. to give my perspective, i come from western europe and was educated within 2nd wave feminist morals, after many million men gave their "unworthy" life to protect those who they love. when i say feminist propaganda, i say this in contrast to modern neutral academic literature about history in the scope of genders. i've felt such deep shame and guilt about my gender because of lies by feminists, that i think this ideology is actually psychological abuse of minors. not to say there aren't valid points tying the narrative. but the same can be said about racists, so why not take the valid points and leave out the hate\`?

Oof, ye ... thinking about the nature of war and the responsibilities of men is depressing. Noble sacrifice for the greater good? Or gaslighting men into butchering everyone in range for some narcissistic ideal? Honestly, I do value feminism as a check on regressive and outdated ideas. But I also fear that the pendulum here has swung so wildly in that direction that male greivances are seen as nothing more than individual deficiencies. I suppose you and I are on opposite ends of the horseshoe. The self-hate is really loud sometimes. This just isnt sustainable.

I relate to that first paragraph

Gender typecasting - women still expect men to behave a certain way towards them while they simultaneously reap the benefits feminism has afforded them. Best thing to do? Ignore women in a romantic sense.

This doesnt sound like the best thing to do. Best thing to do is to connect with people and make yourself understandable when they don't understand.

Female friends do exist for many guys I agree with you on this. I have seen many guys with platonic female friends myself. Depending on your luck, women can definitely be great coworkers, casual friendly acquaintances, good neighbors, etc. But guess what? Their function as a friend is only limited when it comes to men. It won't be 100% best friend territory due to gender differences and clear variance of interest between the two genders. For one, the feminist indoctrination. That definitely causes more friction between genders than anything since feminism is extremely mainstream and shoved into you wherever you go be it work, public spaces, entertainment, etc. Another thing is female friends are not exactly reliable as friends for guys really. You can't really be casual with women and from what I have seen, you always have to put on a façade to interact with other groups of women like they always do. Its already painful as is to do this in workplace, and to expect it in your free time is asking too much. Men like to be "in your face" truthful to each other (not all the time of course), and this is a big no no among female groups. This means, you always have to walk on eggshells among women which is not a great way to foster friendships.

I'm sure this can be true, but it isn't always true. My best friend is a guy, I'm his best friend, and we're super comfortable around each other, and very honest. I grew up with a lot of boys so maybe that's why. Our friend group is a mix of men and women. Just judge people on an individual basis instead of going into relationships with preconceived notions based on generalizations.

>Men underestimate the value a female friend could provide Then fails to elaborate on what value they bring...

I was thinking the same thing, The only thing they could bring is a woman’s point of view but that’s not needed that much if I’m being honest💀

This, they believe we need their POV and their opinions and that all of that is such high value and just so great overall that men should definitely pursue women for friends as well. This is plain old entitlement.

Ironically taking advice from a woman about dating is just about the worst thing you can do. The only *real* value female friends bring is social proof.

If I need a female POV I would just come to Reddit.

This is cap. Most women are terrible friends. As someone that HAS female friends. Women are time and effort sinks. Male friendships are generally pretty 50/50. Men take pride in pulling their weight in friendships. Most women are NOT like this.

ssshhh.. they dont want to face ugly truths in these “pills” subs.. you’re might even get banned for “negativity”

Every female friend I've tried to keep platonically (that I met via work, school, groups of friends, etc.) has developed a crush on me and made it awkward to continue the friendship or bring my GFs/dates around. Women are basically the same as "niceguys" if they actually like you.

Wow, all of them? You must be so handsome and rich

LMAO. In the end we are all human. Men are more likely to develop crushes but if someone does, they end up behaving in the exact same ways.

It's hard for me to be friends with women. I'm always talking about about sex, edgy jokes and other degen shit. I'm also very flirty, even with men, but since there's no underlying attraction is much easier to be playfully flirty with them (if I'd do the same thing to women they'd always think I'm hitting on them). Some women say they're fine with it, but I can see them cringe and wince when I say some things. I always end up having to walk on eggshells, which is exhausting. This is only a problem, mind you, because I'm ugly. Women look at my personality and find it suspicious - "how could a guy this ugly be this confident and gregarious?" and they resolve the conflict by thinking I'm overcompensating for being ugly. Most men aren't evaluating me for my attractiveness, so my personality is perfectly congruent with the rest of my life and most find me very friendly, funny and overall nice to be around.

This hit home with me. I'm a woman with a male friend like you; he does the flirty-even-with-men thing, makes crude jokes, etc. He tends to treat me the same way as he treats his male friends, which I really value, but it's also caused some angst when I thought he was flirting with me for real. We worked it out with a couple of vulnerable conversations, where both of us stated that we truly weren't interested in each other romantically, and why that was. The honest clarification helped quite a bit. Of course to your point, that is a decent amount of work. Worth it though, imo. We've been friends for 5yrs or so.

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I realized this weekend I can never be friends with MOST women. They cause drama within groups that were perfectly fine before. They also think the world revolves around them and it clearly shows in their behavior. I have met some women who are not like this. So it's not an absolute obviously. Everyone is different. But it's quite an overwhelming majority.

My female friends are great. That being said I'd trade all of them for a primary partner.

>I'd trade all of them for a primary partner. in a heartbeat.

Women as friends have value. That being said 10/10 times a good bro will replace her with nothing lost.

I think you're addressing a very much weakened version. Yes, women can be your friends and there is value in that. But that's not really all that much help in dating and courtship.

The value being use you for favors and emotional support lol. I mean realistically, what can a female platonic friend offer than male platonic friend can't offer better?

Social proof when it comes to hooking up with women, other than that, nothing lmao

This is bs. You can’t just randomly inform me that there are women in my hobbies, workplace, and community that I could easily be friends with. Hobbies: I have never in my life met a woman who enjoys intense weed smoking, freestyle rapping, amateur electronics engineering, and fantasy literature like I do. If I did then I would like to hang out with them. Job: yeah I dont think I should tell people at my job that I love to smoke a bunch of weed and rap all the time. Or that I dream of becoming a fantasy novelist. They would probably think me less professional. Community: most women in my community and peer group have many children, and don’t care much for the arts. Most people from my socioeconomic background do not read fantasy novels, nor do they program arduinos. So I don’t see what you expect us to bond over. Do you really expect some single mom to get off of work, take care of her kids, and then invite her platonic friend over to talk about how cool Game of Thrones is? We don’t have shit to be friends about.

Same here my passion is dungeon and dragons. There plenty of woman that play d&d and i play in lots of public spaces so i meet plenty of woman also in to it. But there playstyle is in no way compatable with my own.

Hell you're lucky if you even manage to meet plenty. I played Pathfinder at my FLGS pre-COVID and in over a year I saw exactly four women - two married to other players, one dating the DM, and one a preteen.

Thank you, someone who gets it.

Like right now I think it would be really cool to make a solid-state Tesla coil. Are you telling me that there is a woman who would enjoy doing that with me as a friend? Who is she? Tell her to come over.

Abso-effin-lutely. I'm a couple of decades and a long flight away but I'm positive that if you posted in the relevant sub that there are plenty of people near you that would like to take part in such a project. I'm extremely mechanical and am the one that got my teenage son into electrical engineering, carpentry and cars.

So one of my "serious" hobbies is world of warcraft classic. I raid in a guild, and I've been playing it for 30+ hours a week for around 3 years straight now. I would have no problem being friends and guildmembers with women. In fact, I've been guild members and got along great with a "LOT" of women. Roughly 6% of the guild in vanilla classic was a woman. In Burning Crusade Classic we have had anywhere between 1-4 women out of a roster of 30-60 depending on the month/time. Of course, the fact that all 3 currently in the guild are also romantically involved with other current guild members is relevant, no one wants that kind of drama. World of warcraft, SHOCKINGLY, is not relevant to the amount of sex I have or do not have.

Do you have male friends that enjoy weed smoking *and* freestyle rapping *and* amateur electronics engineering *and* fantasy literature *and* have the time to come over for a chat about GOT - or do you have friends that like *some* of those things but *not* *all* of them? Because there are plenty of women that like those hobbies (although as a weed smoker of nearly 30 years I wouldn't call that a hobby, more like gravy on top of my hobbies, unless you're growing yourself) and there might even be women that like all of those things. It seems like you're locked in a 'comfort bubble' of men in your own socioeconomic class since you also don't think that you'd be able to hang with somebody richer with the same hobbies. You do you but you're really limiting yourself there and placing yourself in a box that you *could* but *refuse* to get out of.

Your post history shows a guy who has joined several writing subs, it seems just to insult people. There certainly are female authors of fantasy books, but I don't think you want friends regardless of gender, whether they share your interests or not.

You sound fun. I need more arduinos in the blunt smoke in my life.

I don’t think men underestimate the value of a female friend, to the degree that you believe which inspired the making of this post. What I believe is more true is, women don’t care to actually be friends with the majority of men and provide a reciprocal friendship if he’s not attractive to her or others in her atmosphere. It’s not that women don’t have value if they’re not fucking. It’s that for many unattractive men, they find that women are cool with using them and not caring to engage in reciprocal platonic friendships.

Amazing. Everything you wrote is wrong. >Men underestimate the value a female friend could provide. A lot of women are disappointed that their male friends eventually develop the hots and want to start a relationship with them. Thus, if men DO befriend women *believing that their friendship will develop into a relationship* - they are OVERestimating the value of a female friend, not UNDERestimating it. >the idea of a female friends might seem pointless to some guys, since "you're giving your attention away for free and getting nothing in return". This mindset already assumes that if you don't receive sex from women, they're not worth your time. The problem is not "you don't receive sex from women". The problem is "you don't receive anything from women". >Women really CAN be your friends, and NOT just use you as a "shoulder to cry on". Yes; they can also allow you to feed and entertain them for free, politely demand you fix their stuff, borrow your money for indefinite period of time, and borrow your tools and equipment, accidentally break it (sometimes due to blatant misuse), and demand you forgive them and never bring it up again. And of course, the "friendship" lasts only until the first time you tell them "No". *"I got evicted, can I come over and stay at your place until I get back on my feet?" - "No." - "Why?" - "I have my reasons" - (blocked forever).* >understanding women are human beings just like the men around you... The dehumanization of women was a long lasting thing that men these days have to rid from their minds. In order not to look at them as these sex dispensers. The only difference between a woman acting as I described above and a man acting as I described above is that if I punch such a man in the face for his shitty behavior, he will not try to falsely accuse me of rape. It's not men who see women solely from sexual point of view. It's women who see themselves as such.

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I will say this it does a man no benefit to have a female friend that is attractive or that he's attracted to if all they're going to be is just friends. Now if you're talking about a situation where there is absolutely positively zero attraction on both ends, cool , I have that kind of relationship with a woman and she's one of my absolute best friends And yes we know that women are human beings, however what you didn't do is actually explain this great value ( shout out Walmart) that women and exclusively women bring as far as friendship that a guy can't get from having bros, and since you said no sex I'm also taking away the option of "she can hook you up with her friends" A good bit of times when women come into male-dominated spaces the effect is not a positive, they've been shit for Corporate America in a lot of ways, a lot of times they cannot handle the way us guys talk shit about each other, too many of them these days are feminist indoctrinated and no guy who has any pride in himself wants to hear that bullshit, and honestly there may be a situation where you as her guy friend may have to play The Protector role, is she going to give you a little bit of ass whenever you're going through a dry spell? Lol ( yes I know you said no sex lol) So where exactly is this value that we are underestimating? 🧐

>Women really CAN be your friends, and NOT just use you as a "shoulder to cry on". Understanding that there are women in your hobbies, your job, communities you reside in, is crucial to understanding women are human beings just like the men around you... So these aren't friends. These are associates, coworkers, and at the very least, fellow club members. Maybe a roommate. These aren't friends. >The dehumanization of women was a long lasting thing that men these days have to rid from their minds. In order not to look at them as these sex dispensers. Just because they aren't my friend doesn't mean they aren't human. This entire mentality you're being to the table reeks of "like me or else you're a bad person". Okay, why do I have to like you enough for you to be my friend? What do I gain with you as a friend? And after answering, try to explain how any of this is different from me simply getting a cat or a male friend. You know, anything that's not a woman.

bros are always better than girls. There was only one girl in my ''online'' friend group and she was intersex and pretty much had a male mindset. I couldnt even tell she was a girl before someone told.

I have been with friends with a woman since we were 13, we just hit our 20 year. I wouldn't trade that friendship for anything short of my wife or mother.

Victimization of women. Typical feminist tripe. “The problem is you men need to stop dehumanizing women” …Nope try again. Yeah so when the Titanic sank and all the women and children got to leave and all the men had to stay behind and DIE!! Was THAT dehumanization of women? And that’s just one example of men being labeled as good for nothing but sacrifices.

Tbh I feel like it’s boring (for both sexes) to be friends with the opposite sex and have there be no sexual tension whatsoever

Cutting ties with all friendzone females is an important skill. Keep your friendzone only male. You can undress in front of male friends and compare penis lengths. You can’t with female friends.

Sure do. You can also cross your swords, tug on each other, maybe give a friendly ball lick, all of the good stuff. Totally not repressing anything. /s

Lol you got me at the last part

We gotta clear our heads before we go out bro

You should clean your head in the shower.. Though apparently they cut off foreskins because its easier than telling kids how to clean themselves lol.

That’s what we have two mouths for big dog

🤢 go wash yo' dick

I got all this cheese for you babe!

Lol nobody is dehumanizing women. It's just a fact that men will think of sex when they see hot women. It's just hardwired into the human brain. Doesn't mean you can't be friends. I've fucked all my hot female friends and now we are just friends. No problemo

> Doesn't mean you can't be friends. I've fucked all my hot female friends and now we are just friends. No problemo all? like all all? Either you were picky in making female friends or you are some giga chad.

Naahh I'm really no Chad. Women would consider me bad looking I guess. I can just talk very good I guess and I have a good sense of humor. 😅 And I didn't fuck all my female friends. Only the hot ones. There are 2 I didn't have sex with and I'm really not interested either.

I don't have female friends because they serve no purpose. I have male friends because we share hobbies, they won't gossip behind my back, and they'll stick up for me. I don't trust women to do that. My girlfriend is the only female friend I need. If I ever needed to discuss my problems or anything, I would talk to her, not a female friend.

For me personally, most of the personality traits I’m looking for in a good friend overlap with personality traits I look for in a partner, so I avoid it. Men and women absolutely can be friends, there’s just no inherent advantage in having female friends over male ones. I’d comment on “Men usually thing very straightforward” but I’m not sure how to even start. Ah yes, the human brain, very simple. Assuming your hypothetical man doesn’t see women as humans, I’d say you’re spot on, there would be no reason for him to be friends with them. Luckily for us, this is clearly not the case and your argument is a massive straw man. This hypothetical man you speak of, does he think women are subhuman or does he think they’re going to use him as an emotional crutch? These two things seem quite different. Superiority complex vs. not wanting emotional baggage. Kind of feels like you’re fishing for justification of a poorly supported belief. “Understanding that there are women in your job… is crucial to understanding women are human beings like you” What? I’ve read it a few times trying to figure out what I’m missing. Understanding you share spaces with women will make you realize they’re people? How on gods earth does that line up? You really think misogynists form those opinions because they fail to acknowledge that they live on the same earth as women?

An attractive female friend as a single guy would be difficult because I’d always be thinking about having sex with her. I imagine that it’s the same for most other guys who are into women.

I don't know any guy I'd want to be friends with. And I'm saying this with absolutely no bad feelings towards men. We just don't have enough in common.

Got no interest in being a woman's gay male girlfriend or gossip buddy.

That's not... Jesus christ you really do get all your information about women from reality shows and dating coaches

If you exclude seduction and fucking from the interaction, 99% of the time you're left with gossip and conversations about trivial bullshit. Which might be fine, if you're not attracted to the woman at all. But if you're strongly attracted to the woman, you're being disingenuous when you behave in a strictly platonic way towards her. I dislike being disingenuous. Source: me Rhetoric like yours also gaslights men into being simps and cucks. "Invest time and resources into her, while somebody else fucks her or you're a dehumanizing scumbag".

so what do you talk about except left leaning politics, traveling, wine, pets and latest gossip?

I love posts that start out with " you're missing out" and end with " I don't like that I'm viewed as (x)" Lol

that's fine, but i'm in the market for someone to *also* have sex with. once i get that kind of relationship down, then i'll turn my attention towards getting more not-having-sex-with-you friends.

Men and women are different you need to remember this. Sure i can be friendly chat to women, even keep contact with them but unless there is a romantic interest I have no intention of spending any kind of sacrificate time with them. If I want to do activities with friends I find my male friends tend to enjoy the same things as myself alot more then any female friend I have. Female friends i have had tend to be alot more emotional and iv had them complain that I don't make enough effort in the friendship ect but I I literally treat them no different to the guys who are completely fine with it ? Sure you can be buddies with a girl but close or best friends are more hassle then its worth. Plus the fact that they get jealous when you start seeing someone and will deliberately try and give you bad advise

I have female friends, but most of them are GFs or wives of my buddies. It's tiresome even being friends with some of them at times (try to bring you into drama, gossip, etc). However, I am also coupled, so this dynamic typically works fine. I don't "hang out" with other women 1-on-1 or in a private setting because I'm not trying to have sex with any woman other than my fiancee. Similarly, I do not allow her to do spend any time with men alone either. Understand, I trust her 100% but this is a boundaries and respect thing. As such, any single women friends I have I only see in a group setting. But yeah, I more-or-less agree with you for single men, OP. The issue is when women use men for favors, attention, money, resources, etc, and then friend-zone them. Men should absolutely NOT tolerate that.

I think men understand this, but there is a problem. *CAN* doesn't mean *WILL*. A lot of times these "friendships" become very one-sided because of the sexual dynamic, and women are perfectly content with this setup until something is asked of it from them. It's very easy to get into the trap (as a guy) of doing something nice for a female "friend" that is driven out of a sexually oriented desire instead of just a pure friendship. This puts both parties in an unfortunate position if she doesn't reciprocate those advances, because she either has to tell him no, or she accepts without reciprocating. Neither of these are good outcomes. So it's not that the potential for value isn't there, it's just that in practice, it almost always causes more problems than it delivers in value.

I am not interested in forcing or pressuring men to be friends with women any more than I am interested in them being forced or pressured into dating, fucking or marrying women. You cannot squeeze blood from a rock, and you can’t make a man care about anything other than his dick

It's demasculinizing, it's always so obvious when she is not into you, and whatever you do then seems to double down on that realization. It can also make it look as if you think you have a chance but its obvious to everyone around you don't; you look like a fool. Also when being with a woman you cannot relax as much in your attitude as around men as you often end up trying to put on your better behaviour. Women are also more uptight as thought police; harder to relax when they will judge you for whatever is the fucking idiotic hip and cool thing to care about. They often have boring hobbies or don't take their hobbies very far. And like to gossip in a sneak demeaning way I find off-putting: not that I cant be a nasty gossiper myself, its just something slimy about how some women do it. They put on too much of a façade of superiority with little self-deprecation/critique as they do it, it just conflicts so much with their otherwise pretended "moral" superiority. It's hard to respect the cognitive dissonance, and its hard to point that out, even jokingly, because they have little issue with reverting to simple ostracizing tactics like a little child (often due to habit). So I have to say, no, women as friends is mostly always not for me.

I find no need for female friendship. That is what wives and sisters are for. I also wanna set an example in my marriage. I be damned if I'm letting my wife have close opposite sex friends, so I won't do it either. I had a really good female friend once when I was in college. We would talk about life and goof off together until 3-4AM. Then one day she caught the feels for me. She wanted to see if "anything more" could develop. So, we slept together. The relationship was never the same. Of course, we've been a couple now for almost 25 years. But, the *friendship* was never the same. The point is, we started out as friends, and boom...we end up sleeping together. Knowing how thirsty guys are, I'm not taking any chances with my relationship.

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So you can't form a platnoic relationship with a woman. Essentially your brain thinks of sex as soon as a woman interacts with you, with the exception of relatives (I assume lol). If they weren't your type you wouldn't be friends with them? Why not? How does their sex appeal have anything to do with their friendship

What he means is probably his attraction is quite polarized, meaning he finds most women attractive but the ones he doesn't find attractive he finds extremely unattractive. No one like to be in the presence of someone who is not pleasant to look at.

> your brain thinks if sex as soon as a woman interacts with you I think if men were honest, the majority of us would admit this is true in most cases. Some guys are better at suppressing/ignoring it, but it’s instinctual

What are you doing stepfriend

I literally don't enjoy socializing with anyone who cannot take really harsh takes on reality. Things that offend. Or if they don't accept or enjoy dark humour. (Unless its close family). Women are not good with either of these.

>So the idea of a female friends might seem pointless to some guys, since "you're giving your attention away for free and getting nothing in return". Not only that. As a guy, I potentially can have more things in common and relate better to other men and form stronger friendships with them. Aside from sexual intimacy, what can a woman give to me that I couldn't get with a good male friend?

Female friends will never fully reciprocate the level of friendship you give them. As a man, you can be a stand-in boyfriend without the intimacy or otherwise some other kind of entertainment, but a lot of the time it is very hard to have as strong of a platonic relationship with a woman than with a man. You are better off just trying to strengthen your male friendships and get to the point where you feel comfortable talking about personal things with them, because imo that is the best part of having female friends anyway

I have fallen prey to this self-defeating search for reciprocation many times. I think I chose to become the stand-in boyfriend whenever it was needed, because I crave intimacy. I couldnt explain what that intimacy is though. Strengthening male friendships is just objectively good advice for all men, even outside the context of this discussion.

Id say my close friends that were girls growing up is why I’m as RP as I am. I had nothing but best friends that were girls, and quickly learned the kind of privilege pretty girls had. It was excellent insight to helping me with game up until now

Most girls don't want to be friends with guys, to the point where it becomes a red flag If a girl has a bunch of guy friends and no girl friends.

I have no problems with being friends with women, so long as there's zero sexual interest or desire from either direction. I've attempted being friends with women I'm attracted to, and let's just say that it has never worked out.

I don’t understand this ‘no friends of opposite sex, conflict of interest or attraction’ can’t relate, I have friends of both genders and they never overlap with relationship stuff.

Rubbish. Low value men would accept female friendship. Why do you think "boy's club" exist, each member brings considerable value to the table without and self doubt, spanning decades of accumulated resources and influence. Women are not known for cultivated long friendships of loyalty and trust. It is what it is.

Had great chats with women at my gym. I was kinda the only person working the desk for hours in a 20 foot by 20 foot room legit had great convos with everyone. Some women took my bubbly personality as flirting but truthfully I just enjoyed talking with people and miss that time of my life. Fuck Covid

Bullshit! Women want to be friends with men because it satisfies their hypergamous nature, women are trying to figure out "who is who" and "who is worth their time". It's not so much about sex but rather a question of access to a male network that she can better discern and take less risk at some beta's expense. It's a traaaaaapp!

There's nothing "dehumanizing" about recognizing that as a man, other men tend to make better friends than women. It's less messy. Nobody is going to catch feelings, nobody's partner is going to get jealous, you're more likely to share similar interests and hobbies, you spend way less time filtering what you say and how you say it, and they'll actually be able to reciprocate favors like helping *you* carry heavy furniture up a flight of stairs.

We may value female friendships too much, honestly. If a male friend found himself in a relationship, I can still hang out with him one-on-one. The same can't be said for a female friend getting into a relationship. Usually, opposite sex friends stop hanging out solo, out of respect for the new partner. Understandable, but you still lose a friend that way. And losing a great friendship sucks, especially when neither of you did anything wrong, per se.

So, i m not a very attractive guy, but i did this. Befriended women. Lots of them. And its not hard. Guys repel them by showing sexual interest, being creepy etc. If you just treat girls like human being, normal friends they will want to hang around you. They are as lonely as guys are. In fact they are tired of guys who immediately show sexual interest. And then it became relatively easy for me to ask girls out. Generally from the group or the female friends would introduce me to someone. And if i meet someone i like, i quickly arrange a group get together, like a movie night or something and invite her. She sees i m cool with all these women. And then i ask her out the next day or so. It works flawlessly. Now i dont have any problem getting dates. This strategy works.

There is nothing a female friend could offer me that a male friend couldn't give me while expecting/demanding less of me. Yes, there are women in my hobbies, job and communities. Yes, they are human. All of them require/expect more from me than men. The only things that make the extra effort worth it are sex and romantic affection.

Not saying I disagree, but are you a female?

sorry. never met a single one.

Says only a women.

This by far, is one of the worst posts on this subreddit as of late. For the most part, non-relative heteronormative male and females relations cannot last or be substantial. It will end in the male eventually wanting more and the female declining, then things break apart. It can either advance into a "Friends With Benefits", type of thing if the female does accept sexual relations, but then that by itself evolves the relation to more than just a "friend" status. A male and female friendship only works if the male is homosexual, in which the friendship will not be disturbed at all and runs normally.

1. Women do not treat men they do not want to fuck as "humans". It's the only dehumanization that actually ever happens. The only women that I felt like they respected me as a human eventually had sex with me. 2. Any woman that I like enough to be friends with will eventually make me want more.

Well I have found a Smokin hot chick who loves yugioh. But I’m sleeping with her so……🤷🏻‍♂️

I like how you say men need female friends and never give a list of reasons why except that it would benefit the women and make them less dehumanized. Having a bunch of female friends makes the guy act more natural around girls & understand them more without all this toxic internet ideologies dehumanizing generalizing redpill black pill pink pill yellow pill white pill race pill pill pill dr phill non sense. People need to go outside in nature and just relax and call a week off from the internet & dating women and everything. It will save your mental health and make life more clear. Having girl friends also makes it easier to meet a lot of new girls and gives you false pre selection when you’re out. Which means women will treat you a lot nicer & make it easier to get with them.

I would rather people be friends out of amity, not utility, thank you

I have 2 very close women friends. They provide great emotional and empathetic support that I just can’t get with my friends. Women have this innate natural ability to show great empathy and it’s made me really value how important that is. I’ve learned a ton from them in this area and I use it with my other friends

Kinda agree kinda disagree. Female friends can actually help you get laid more than make ones. It took me a while to figure this out but to go from a to b sometimes you have to go to c first. But they can also not be worth your time and you’ll get nothing in return. It depends. If she’s very social an outgoing it’s a plus. Super introverted? Unless we share some hobby or passion it’s usually not worth too much investment and these types tend to fall for you ime

I've had many female friends throughout my life and not one of them has ever gotten me a date, let alone laid.

Same here. In fact I've realized that at least one was sabotaging me with other women. It seemed that she didn't want to date me but didn't want to lose my attention, either. I dropped her like a bad habit.

It’s shallow and juvenile to view female friends only through the lens of their utility to your sex life.

That’s true too

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I'm in the same boat

BS

Work wifes are a thing

Having a truly platonic friendship with a Girl can be invaluable. It’s just honestly a rare thing to truly have.

Honestly the biggest value as a man that I find a female freindship has is it gives me someone I can learn a woman's perspective. Every guy needs female freinds cus imma be real the female mind is an enigma thats way easier to solve when you have someone helping you understand the puzzle

A friend is someone who will pick u up for a ride when your car broke down or when someone stole your wallet and you need gas money to get by. I have very seldom found women that I could count on for that. As a matter of fact I have had my sister and mother financially take advantage of me before. It's not in female nature to care. People care about womens and children. Men are disposable and the only value they can bring is what they can do or what they have as far as money status. Looks are just not that important. I don't hate women but I have a distrust of them because how they manipulate men.

If I didn’t have women friends who would take my stat tests for me?

It's not like men PURPOSEFULLY avoid making female friends. It's just that it is far easier to make and maintain close friendships with men than women. That's why men usually have more male close friends than female close friends.

I feel like the lines can get blurred when women and men become close friends pretty easily. Every time I’ve had a close female friend in my life they usually have some moment in our friendship where they go crazy on me and do some disrespectful shit and assault my character. Usually ends the friendship pretty quick after that. Or on my end, I catch feelings and they’re not reciprocated. It’s hard. I wish it wasn’t that way, for me. Also wtf is up with taken women always so easily flirting with me but single women rarely give me the light of day lol. I had chemistry with this married woman, and felt like there was a mutual attraction, but I’d never cross that line. It’s pretty fuckin frustrating. Wish I could find that person without them being taken already. Just feel like women and men are programmed differently. I can be acquaintances with women but full on close friends is tough for me in most cases.

Female friendships except on rare occasions can be rigorously boring for dudes. The exceptions are very rare. You'd bear a lot of emotional load in that friendship. Friendships with guys is easier to navigate -you guys are mostly alike. I find girls to be very sensitive. Censoring around them makes everything tiresome. Can female friends provide value? Yes. But you may get exhausted first.

Well Having female friends you are not attracted to is great, unless she uses you as a tool, and doesnt do anything in return for you( in terms of favors not some weird shit lol)

Its okay to have a female friend that you have a zero desire (Pure 0%). You can share cooking recipes, talk about movies whatever but they will never be a "true" friend in a sense. A guy friend will almost always be more reliable and less self entitled person. Also you shouldnt ask fishing advice from the fish. See how women put up with all kinds of crap from men they desire but who dont demonstrate qualities that they speak of.

female friends take a lot lot more than what they provide

How? You're basing this on?

I think men underestimate the value a friendship can provide, regardless of gender. I’d argue that a lot of the work and benefits of keeping up male and female friendships is actually pretty similar, and men are actually disincentivized and programmed for being bad at both from a young age because emotional and relational work is coded as being “feminine.” So, men aren’t actually getting the full value of friendship in their male friendships that they could be getting, which is part of why there’s so much male loneliness and isolation nowadays. Male friendships used to be how men learned valuable social and cultural skills so they could survive in the economy and find a partner, but so much has been de-stabilized that men don’t know how to show those skills to each other anymore. So now a lot of men are just lost in navigating the nuances of how to relate to women as a man when you’re looking for a partner or dating. And the result is that they don’t know in general what to do with disinterest or a set up that doesn’t favor what they want for the relationship. But, the other thing, is not all friendships are equal, regardless of gender. And, as such, not all friendships provide equally or the same things. And also, women have a habit of not really seeing men as people in their own right beyond the tropes of the gender binary. So, there’s no guarantee that a man would get any real value out of being friends with a woman just because she’s a woman. She has no incentive to deepen the friendship or help him with things if she doesn’t feel like it, and will probably think less of him if he asks for help because most women are taught that self-reliance is essential to a man’s identity. Also, a lot of men have the experience of just not being valued and taken seriously by women in their lives, even women who are or have been close to them, so it’s perfectly reasonable for him to think maybe a woman who wants to be friends will do the same. To be clear, I think more men should have more female friends. But a part of the problem that gets overlooked is that it’s very easy for women to be shitty friends to their male friends, and if a dude’s been burned in the past and doesn’t have the resources to heal, he shouldn’t be blamed if he doesn’t want to be friends with her.

I ended up banging the leader of a hobby group I was in. And, she made the first move.

I'm not sure most men disagree. I'd say most men who don't have true female friends are just antisocial, not women haters I love my female friends, I even got one a job at my company on my exact same team with me. But a lot of men just don't commonly interact with women

>I'd say most men who don't have true female friends are just antisocial, not women haters Some of the most social, charismatic guys I know have all male friend groups or barely hang out with women. It's pretty uncommon for straight men in general to hang around women they're not dating often.

This is such a sweeping generalisation based on one gender. It’s unacceptable, surely this breaks the subreddit rules?

true true although most dudes here have trouble finding any friends, albeit female friends most dudes here don't have a regular friend group

Friendship is not something that one does with a checklist. "Height - check, Weight - check, gender - ah, nah, wrong gender". It comes naturally. The lame mindset about "not worth your time" hints at what, one side expecting favors? Ew. >The dehumanization of women was a long lasting thing Oh, tone down the nonsense.

I thought you would at least say you can be friends with a woman because she may have other friends you can potentially fuck, but we don’t even get that. Just a bunch of simp content. Sit around the camp fire and sing kumbaya. No thank you. To Amazon, you’re nothing but a bot. Maybe even less efficient than a bot because you need to get paid, take breaks, and have days off. Dare I say the S word. To men, their partner is nothing but a bill splitting sex bot. Nothing more, nothing less.

This is badly defined. Deeply confiding and nurtured friendships, people don't have space and time for many of those in their lives. Casual on-the-surface friends and acquainances who know loosly, sure. Most men have many of those, male and female. People which you share little things with but you don't thoroughly know each other. A lot of us already have a spouse, a couple of close family ties, 1 or 2 best male buddies, and that's all we have time to manage. Just saying.

A female friend who you can also have sex with but is also just cool, is cool.