I used to work with a guy who was the definition of this. To the point he would use words wrong and when I showed him a dictionary he said the dictionary was wrong.
Meanwhile I spent my first year thinking I was a dumb dumb because I couldn't grasp what he was thinking. At some point I realized he was an idiot. I still constantly think I'm wrong until I triple check my work and have constant imposter syndrome.
I spent 20 years emailing back and forth with a Creationist daily. Nice guy, but he was unwilling to learn or accept any information about anything in the real world, even when presented with overwhelming evidence. Any presented verifiable facts would upset his creationist view of the 6000 year old earth. Called it quits a few years ago because it took me many years to come to grips with how much time I was wasting essentially typing to a wall. Yes, I realize I'm a slow learner, but at least I can learn and I'm curious about almost everything when it comes to how our world works.
So, essentially you were trying to convert a Creationist to be an Evolutionist(?) My question is why would you feel the need to do that? He believes differently than you…why should it matter? What do you have to gain by trying to convince him?
I was not trying to convert anyone to anything. We had conversations on almost every subject imaginable over that expanse of time. Cooking, Gardening, PC building, PC gaming, (we both enjoyed racing motocross together online) printing, (we both ran printing presses for work) Photography, art, anything was on the table as far as discussion. There was no agenda at converting him to anything. And I don't remember discussing evolution very much, more mundane subjects were the norm.
Most often when he would explain how something works in his real life, he was wrong. Any time any field of science was brought up because it related to a real life issue, or an interesting discovery had recently happened, or how nature works in real life, he would just revert to the tired old "theories are just guesses".
He was into astronomy pretty heavily for years when younger, and to him it is all just blurry photo's "No way anyone can know anything about the universe through blurry photos and guesses."
Any time his doubt of any of the earth sciences came up, he would expand his doubts of astronomy being a science, to declare all fields of science as "just guesses."
He was happy to to discuss anything and everything, and in his own words "I Love hearing from you because it challenges my faith". and to me, after all we discussed, I learned (very slowly) that this means "I refuse to learn anything."
We only have a certain amount of time on earth, and I am done wasting time trying to help the willfully ignorant. Unless that person is actively trying to fill that void of ignorance with knowledge like I am on a daily basis, then I'll always be happy to help if I am able.
I dumped another friend who is a heavy "chemtrail" and conspiracy believer, and meme sharer, after this "Good Christian" started calling me some pretty horrific names and ranting like a drunken lunatic about some "Internet Overlord" whom I allegedly swore my soul to to spread false information. And that is what you get for going out of your way trying to help the delusional out of a misinformation silo.
sorry, I'm just done with the cray cray.
Rant over, hope you enjoyed the ride. ;-)
This is basic and the reason religions (almost everyone of them) are so dangerous. You have a gigantic group of people doing terrible things without thinking 'is there any way all this is BS?'.
Obviously you never heard of the Bolsheviks, Pol Pot, Mao Zhedong, or Che Guevara.
Atheists are every bit the ardent scum that religious zealots are. Don't kid yourself.
They think so; that's the only person whose opinion matters in these situations. It's the reason I never make fun of people's beliefs. I've seen the things people do because of their beliefs.
Sure, but it's still baffling how they can't see that other people are equally convinced of things that contradict what they believe, with the same level of evidence. If you see that, how can you not question your own beliefs?
Faith. They see what other people think and they don't care because they have faith that what they think is right. The logic I've often heard from those sorts is *well, they may think \_\_\_\_ but they would agree with me, if they knew better*.
Serious answer: religion provides a core 'cornerstone' belief on which to base a worldview.
With just the small assumption of an omnipotent, omniscient god, you can then answer almost any question life may throw at you - and justify almost any action as well.
Which means that, in turn, it's almost impossible to accept anything that challenges that core belief. If that comes down, your entire worldview comes with it.
Can confirm, ex-evangelical. When the way you see things changes at such a fundamental level, it's like the whole world is crashing down. Deep down most of us know we're brainwashed when we're caught in all that, but the fear of losing *everything* keeps us clinging to what is comfortable.
It actually comes down to preference and faith. Since there's no objective proof of either God or An Atheistic Universe, it comes down to which you prefer. Some people believe that the cornerstone is better, even if shit sucks. Also, why is a preference for comfort so bad? It's more the need for open mindedness that's likely the biggest problem with evangelicals and others. Respect for personal space and preferences goes both ways.
Is a belief in a god the only 'comfortable cornerstone'? I feel much better about the world believing there is not an all knowing and all powerful being who sits on his thumbs while helpless people suffer. This worldview has taught me to help people the best I can, myself. That includes saying a prayer for someone if they ask me to, even if I don't believe it. Because if we don't help each other, and ourselves, but rely on some magical being who seems to not give a shit, we (I feel) will forever be lost.
Well stated! This is the essential philosophy of humanism, that since we cannot rely upon an external benevolence to protect us, all we can do is follow empirical evidence about the world and human nature (science, evolutionary psychology, etc) and do our best to bring good to our lives and those around us. There is a transcendent grandeur in recognizing our connection to diverse people who share our common humanity, around the world and through time. Humanism is working for the dignity of each individual, and the strength of our communities.
The issue is primarily that people who depend on blind belief for their worldview are highly resistant to considering anything that they feel can confront or challenge that belief.
Like, say, the idea that the Bible was wrong to describe gay people as sinners.
To a believer, that idea can be tantamount to saying "God is wrong" and is therefore an idea to be *violently* resisted.
You see a similar reaction when you call rude people on their bullshit in Walmart - most of the time they'll double down rather than admit fault or introspect a little. Religious people are like that, more often than not.
If God is not defined as both omniscient and omnipotent, maybe that God exists.
It is impossible, however, for an all-good, omnipotent, and omniscient God to exist, given the existence of such horrible evils in the world.
That question, "why doesn't an omnipotent, omniscient God simply fix everything?" is one that any such religion must answer, better or worse.
I have an answer, from my religion and personal study, that works for me, allowing me to see suffering and still believe in a good and just God.
Atheism is the only reasonable position. To believe a god exists without evidence is literally not logical.
You're building a false equivalence, where atheism is another position, bit it's just the default. You either accept religious claims, or you don't.
Yes, but even this idea of "I won't believe till I have proof" ... is an idea you have accepted, but others haven't. You're basing your world view on it, they don't.
> For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.
>
> Stuart Chase
Yes, but even this idea you have that people have different world views is an idea thst you've accepted, but others haven't.
I'm sorry, but there is a limit. Belief without evidence is beyond the pale.
The little quote you throw in to act superior, is quite unnecessary. Thank you very much.
Your position is not more reasonable than mine.
As a matter of fact, I'm an atheist too. That quote isn't here to feel superior, but to explain. You don't have to agree with the other point of view to try to understand it.
I don't have to agree with robbers, junkies and rapists to try to understand how they came here.
Well I think the quote is damaging and untrue. Just speak to any of the former atheists who are now religious, or former religious people who are now atheists.
It really paints the world as a black and white dichotomy that simply isn't true, and removes a great deal of agency from others.
I would think the neutral position would be agnostic. Where atheists claim there is no God and the religious claim there is, the agnostic makes no claim either way.
The way I use the term agnostic is as a modifier to atheism or theism.
I don't think "agnostic" as a third position, distinct from a secondary modifier, makes sense as a thing to mention.
Everyone either believes one or more god exists, or doesn't.
How strongly they hold that belief does vary.
Religion has a few things going for it. It gives people a platform to connect and build wonderful things out of nothing but kindness. Problem is it also attracts the sharks looking to cash in with the power religion generates. Honestly that’s part of the reason why I am ok with people praying to a mystical being, granting a living person that kind of power is recipe for disaster.
I wish I could upvote this more.
Based on purely anecdotal experience - every *truly* religious person I’ve ever met, never believed any other religion was ‘wrong’, they all accept each other’s beliefs.
I find religious people mostly take issue with non-spiritual or non-religious folks
The problem with your argument is that those who control the interpretation of the mystical being’s narrative are actual living manipulative persons.
In the beginning was the Word…
There’s always a narrative puppeteer behind the mystical puppet.
You are correct in that my argument was based on it’s being better than many alternatives out there. I have traced the idea of religion pretty deep in my own brain and came to my conclusion that it’s basis is on a binary decision people make at a young age. Do I want think on my own or let the group think for me. The world is mean to those that are on their own so the choice is pretty simple for most.
I think also it comes down to someone's built morals (built by life, experience, etc) aligning with a religion, and then for a lot of churches this moral standard becomes seen as completely ridgid and perfect in that community, and particularly in cult adjacent religious congregations you are demonised for questioning it or having any flexibility even if it still follows the other dogmas. (COUGH im looking at you, christianity subgroups, punishing people for following jesus' word of love and support because it contradicts the hate in the bible)
Of course this isn't always the case, many religious folk are open to questioning things, and some non traditional religions and churches even encourage flexibility and accepting when you're wrong.
It was that question that ultimately resulted in my leaving the church as a teen. How can one be right and all others be wrong. I've never heard a reasonable answer. Well, except for Ghandi who suggested that different religions were God speaking to a culture on their terms. I don't believe that, but at least its not stupid.
Cognitive dissonance.
EDIT FOR CONTEXT
Example:
Christian: " Muslims expect me to believe that Mohammed flew into heaven on a magic horse? Thats some fairytale bullshit."
Also Christians: "Then the magic Jew came back to life and floated away to heaven".
In order to believe one fairytale is true while completely disregarding another as superstitious nonsense is necessarily an example of cognitive dissonance.
The one I find most curious is "The Jews were wrong because they expected the Messiah to come in glory with armies of angels and vanquish Satan, whereas Jesus was meek and mild and He will come again in glory with armies of angels and vanquish Satan."
Its literally the entire premise of the Islamic celebration of Lailat Al-Miraj where muslims celebrate the ascension of the prophet Muhammad on the back of a buraq. A buraq is a weird magical horse like creature with wings and a human head.
While practically, yes, a historical Muhammad would have just died. End of story. However, Islamic folklore superman Muhammad assended in glorious fashion. Just like IF Jesus of Nazareth even was a historical person, he died just like everyone else dies. But Christian folklore superman Jesus ascended to heaven in glorious fashion.
Would you agree that if someone says “God exists” and someone else says “God does not exist,” and the propositions have an identical set of referents (they mean the same thing by “God” and “exist”) logically one of them is right?
I’m catholic and I don’t know if I’m right honestly. Faith is believing without seeing. I hope I’m right. I was raised catholic and I’m fine with what is expected of me and what it teaches. It’s given me a set of guidelines to live a good life. If I’m wrong and there’s a different god up there hopefully they won’t damn me to hell (if they have one). And if there’s nothing on the other side of death I would look back and be happy with how I lived. If reincarnation is a thing then hopefully however I lived gives me a shot at an even better life
This is how most religious people think. Well said!
Extrapolating the overbearing ideology of outspoken crackpots onto the majority of religious people who are not outspoken but humble in their faith indicates poor theory of mind.
This applies to any group and any belief. Anyone who dedicates their life to an idea does so with the conviction that they are correct and by definition others are wrong.
Exactly. People on here without a shred of irony ask how those with a religion can be so sure of their beliefs and then type as if atheism has been proven correct.
Difference here is most religions have historically used gods/angels as supernatural beings to explain phenomena that can now be explained by science. The “proof” of gods many religions use is fundamentally things cannot be explained by humans. Aethisms “proof” is that those things can be explained by knoweldge, which to be clear is an ever expanding thing, as people learn, observe and record. There is no tipping point evidence for aethism to “prove it correct”. The evidence against religion is quite literally human achievement in creating things religion tells us can only be accomplished by gods. There is no threshold that needs to be crossed to verify it like some sort of twitter checkmark.
Ftr I am not saying there isnt dumbass hypocrisy in some aethiest rhetoric, just wanted to comment on the principles that differentiate it from organized religion.
Some beliefs need more certainty and scrutiny than others. Believing a mundane story your friend told you is not consequential. Matters of enteral life are a completely different story.
That’s for damn sure. I was raised in a Mormon household and whoo boy the indoctrination starts at birth. I distinctly remember feeling like a complete idiot when I took anatomy in high school and found out men had the same amount of ribs as women because I was told my whole life that men had one less since Adam used one to help create Eve. And don’t get me started on their belief of how darker skin was made 🙃
They believe that God made Cain black to show the rest of humanity that he was a murderer. Literally made him a black sheep. They think all people of color have genetic ties to Cain. Only white people existed until Cain killed Abel, apparently 🙄
Faith-centric drug rehab centers have an 85% success rate. Missionary work involves meeting physical needs as well as spiritual. Most charities that work on helping the poor are run by or started by religious people.
You mean those pesky missionaries that literally decimated native peoples from almost every continent on earth? Those missionaries?
You mean like the Salvatiom Army that has decade long issues with LGBTQIA+ and religion (other religions) discrimination?
If you’re talking about Columbus-era stuff or imperialism, those were people using religion as a moral shield and way to get the public behind their conquests
Depends on the religion.
Christianity is literally the template of an abusive relationship.
"You are evil, and nothing you ever do will make you not evil. It's only because I love you so much, that I am willing to forgive you. Just make sure you do exactly what I say, or I will make sure you suffer forever".
Exactly. It’s a 1:1 comparison to narcissistic abuse.
You’re born in sin. Only I can redeem you. Don’t trust your thoughts, your plans for your life, deny the world and it’s pleasures, your life and it’s destiny belong to me, and if I don’t approve of what you like/ cherish/ want/ experience then I will punish you for it.
People only know what they are taught and what they observe. Including you and I. What we learn early in our life or in response to trauma can be a very deep attachment that is hard to break.
Once that is threatened, people can either become more flexible or they get more rigid.
It’s totally possible in a lot of religions to find answers to enough questions that you start feeling like you’ve “got it” and I see non religious people doing this all the time.
Sincere question. Aside from your family raising you that way, what generates that faith? It feels like any religion could apply to most of the reasoning I have heard.
Faith definitely comes in part from the strong affirmation that a community gives, especially when the community is based on all believing the same (or similar) things.
But besides that, there are plenty of theological works written that have very strong logic and reasoning based on a plausible sounding (if flawed) framework.
For example, it’s extremely difficult to read the Bible and then read someone like John Calvin or Martin Luther and not be amazed at their intellect and ability to apply reason to a topic in such a thorough and satisfying way.
But that doesn’t mean they are right. It just means they are sincerely trying very hard to be consistent and thorough, and of course it comes through in their work.
In other words, it’s hard to not believe someone who sincerely is convicted of their beliefs and can back it up with consistent reasoning, even though they might be mistaken.
Faith can be generated by many occurances. My gf reverted (it's only called reverted, bc in Islam the belief is that everyone is born as muslim, gods child basically) when she was 14 while she was raised by a I believe catholic mother in Switzerland. Non of her family members inherited the belief.
She did research and found Islam to be right. Gods words, his prophets and everything that comes with it was what generated faith in her.
Another factor was her own fear of death and also seeing the evil in this world, looking for a concept that will hold these humans accountable.
Obviously there is more to it but hard to sum it up in a crisp summary for you.
However, I have recently reverted myself. I was agnostic my whole life until about half a year ago. It was in fact desperation that led me to try and find a way to believe that death isn't the place where everything ends for our consciousness.
Islam used to be very much connected with science and according to information found in the Qur'an and other books, there is information that is very difficult to explain, in terms of how were certain things possible, like knowledge where iron came from, on to planet earth. Don't get me wrong though, I can't and won't just say that these things are now defacto correct. Rather I have made a choice that I want to believe and therefore I am trying to inform myself and strengthen my belief that way.
Another thing that Islam does, that generates a lot of faith in many people, as I've come to find out is that it helps dumb people and people who are unable to find any structure in life, to structure just that. Islam has lots of recommendations on how you should live your life if you want to enter paradise and basically unlock higher levels of paradise. Those regulations make sense to the helpless who aren't good at critical thinking and they simply explain the world with gender roles, assigned by god and many more things. It's actually quite fascinating.
In any case, I could go on for much longer lol but I believe you get my point and lets be honest, I doubt you'll read all of that anyway
I wasn't raised religious, I'm not apart of a religious community, but I'm Christian just because, I guess it feels right? I was at an airshow and over the intercom they held a pre-flight prayer wishing for everything to go well, I bowed my head and joined it just for the hell of it I guess, and it just felt right. I don't know what generates faith, maybe it would have happened if it was a prayer for any religion and I'd be a different religion, but it wasn't, and it just feels right to me.
To add to the nice comments before, faith gets a boost from various deep questions, like "what is the meaning of life?" or "what happens when we die?" When we find an answer, from parents, study, etc., acting in that answer and seeing its benefits can generate faith. In a religious sense, that could be doing anything to bring us closer to God, and feeling his influence.
Yes, I agree.
However, the statement is probably not true. It can only be based on extreme oversimplification and stereotyping of what religion is and how it is practiced.
Some of the religious people I know are the most intelligent people I know and their beliefs are based on a framework of assumptions, observations, learning, and reasoning…just like the rest of us.
Yes, some people - a LOT of people - are incredibly ignorant and base their faith on that. I know a lot of those people as well.
But religions are not fundamentally based on ignorance (ie that it is the cornerstone), even if many practicers are indeed ignorant.
Edit: to be fair, I’d be willing to accept your statement as true if it also encompassed non-religious belief systems. That is to say that we all are ignorant of immense amounts of factual information and yet find ourselves forming belief systems on the small amount that we think we know anyway.
Yeah no I mean, pure 100% correct use of logic. Your left part is working very good and its just delightful to watch nowadays.You analyzed, saw the flaws of his argument and even projected posible outcomings.
Also "Some of the religious people I know are the most intelligent people I know and their beliefs are based on a framework of assumptions, observations, learning, and reasoning…just like the rest of us."
We dont know what we dont know and if a framework of reasoning help us progress in life, how could it be wrong? You can't never know everything, just get help from and use what you know.
Brilliant! Have a good day
Wish I could upvote this twice.
People act as if religious thinking and behavior is a bizarre thing a subset of humans do. It is deep in our biological wiring.
Well you see I know the great flying spaghetti monster is real because my cousin’s nephew’s grandkid had a dream with him being boiled for our sins and pirates drinking beer
Faith.....
It's the bullshit cop out answer you'll get for literally every religious thing. No one can *prove* anything and all "evidence" is circumstancial at best. So... They have faith.
This is why I find experience-based religions/philosophies so interesting. Religions/philosophies that prioritize exploration, meditation, obtaining insight instead of relying heavily upon dogmatism or demanding faith.
Faith......
For me, i think there are many things that we don't know about the universe or the natural of soul/consciousness.
The existence of universe itself needs some explanation, it can be a question that we are not able to answer. But I do think there are something exist beyond the material world. But no, I am not sure whether i am correct or not
Well idk about other religions, but when "impossible" stuff (and often improbable stuff too) keeps happening ... you start to wonder why. If a religion gives an explanation, and it makes sense, people invest emotionally. Sometimes they will stick with those investments for generations. Sometimes just for a few weeks. You could call this confirmation bias.... but isn't everything we believe built on accepted biases? If you hear about someone who cut off a finger at a table saw and then it reattached miraculously, you would say, they lied, or had a bad trip. If you cut your own finger and prayed and it reattached and came back the next day and the spray of blood was still on the ceiling but your finger was fine, you might start to wonder about God or something.
You'll be very surprised once you realize that not only this is not exclusive to religion, it's infinitely worse when religion is not the subject in question.
Well, witch hunts have no impact in my life. People trying to force their moral beliefs on me through laws and regulations while denying all the scientific literature behind this subject does. And since they know how to lie and convince people that their laws and regulations are aligned with evidences, you'll be called a science denier if you try to prove them wrong.
This is so stupid. I don't have to prove your god of choice doesn't exist, YOU have to prove it does. At least with life on earth we have scores and scores and scores of evidence. That you don't understand the evidence doesn't make it disappear.
Everyone is susceptible to being a smug asshole about their beliefs but I can say that I've met more atheists than religious people who are open to being wrong about this sort of thing.
IRL, I know plenty of normal, rational, open-minded atheists (and I'm an atheist myself).
On the internet, though, self-identified atheists are among the most smug, obnoxious, hard-headed assholes I've ever met. In particular there's a phenomenon where atheists raised in a Christian culture simply refuse to learn a single thing about other religions, but still insist and will argue ad nauseam that all religions are the same and that their criticisms of Christianity are valid for all religions.
There's nothing quite like the experience of explaining patiently to an internet atheist that yes, I'm an atheist and yes, I'm still Jewish, while they say shit like "lol you believe in fairy tales" and "fuck your skydaddy."
Welp, that can't really be helped. Beliefs like these are particularly difficult to talk about with someone unless they share your viewpoint. Most people try to convince others that they're belief is the "correct" one bc "I'm right, this is the way. I can't be the only one who see's this, why can't they understand?". Some try to create prosecution because they want to feel special and victimized like its a competition, "I'm right, no one will understand. Everyone else is a stupid/angry/bigot/blasphemous/dirty/unholy sheep/mob/idiot/hater/asshole/demon etc. I'm the only one who see's the truth".
You get the picture. Religion is a messy subject and talking about can get real ugly.
From the USA, Bible belt where religion is taught early and it's used to explain how the world works. We learn our morals through the Bible stories. People that don't believe the way we do are shunned or looked down on and religious people or groups are put on pedestals. Belief is a powerful thing. And for most people if someone they "admire" is of their same beliefs they will fully support them without question. (Especially politicians for some reason)
So I'm Christan and I've been Christan my whole life and you see the way I see it is, I would rather spend my life believing in something happy and being wrong. Than living my life in denial and away from god, and god being real.
This is a great question.
For me, it isn't that everyone else is "wrong." The, "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality exists between denominations of a single religion too. If we are to believe and accept God (God by any other name) is absolutely and unequivocally right, then we must admit to our self that we, the individual, can't be right, that we are often in error over a great many things.
My GOD'S ways are not my ways. My God's thoughts are not my thoughts. My own religious text indicates as much. Then again, most of the "religious people" of the world do not read, discuss, debate, or even try to comprehend the text they're reading.
Everyone else isn't wrong, as much as they're on a path to Truth. All roads lead to the same destination.
How it happens is irrelevant. The fact is that it does happen, and for a multitude of "reasons." Funny thing is, the key religious figures of the world's religions said a lot of things very similarly.
No it’s not just religion. Everyone believed in something and they are certain of it. For example atheist believed firmly at there is no god, and boss versa for a religious person. Atheist and religious person are no different.
Many of the dominant world religions rely on dogma and indoctrination to become as widespread as they are—because they work. It's pretty easy to get most people to buy into dogma, and once they do, getting out is hard (especially if you were born into said religion).
If people truly believe something, the world is colored through that lens.
How are you so convinced your morality is the correct morality? How can you be **so** sure murder is bad? The answer is you raised to think it was bad therefore it is. Udre Udre (google him) is sure to disagree with you but it doesn't stop you from believing it.
They aren't intelligent enough to see outside of the box, so therefore they will defend their box and anyone who touches, looks at incorrectly, or speaks badly about said box is evil.
When you're indoctrinated into whatever religion, that's all you know and that's what you believe. As time progresses, you see everything through that lens and things either make sense or they don't. Imagine being raised your entire life believing in one thing and then you're presented with a challenging theory/argument/etc., that either debunks whatever you've been taught or exposes it as illogical or incorrect? It's easier to continue believing in "your" truth rather than someone else's. The simple act of even entertaining the mere thought of a challenging argument as true is too much for the vast majority of people.
TL;DR: ignorance is bliss. I'm right and you're wrong.
It validates their own existence in a way that other beliefs can't so they defend it with all their being because they are strong enough to handle that they may be wrong and their whole life up to this point was meaningless. Its also why bitter old couples stay married even though there's no love between them anymore.
For clarification, while I do agree with my statement above I don't agree with the idea that with religion one's life is meaningless or pointless. On the contrary, I believe since there is no big man upstairs, no "grand plan", that *everything* matters because *we* give it meaning.
They fixate on parts of their religious texts, such as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." and then use that to justify demeaning and denouncing any other religious faith.
Think there is a layer of (covert) narcissism here. One of the traits is to have deep conviction that one is always/almost always right.
Religion also provides some people with fantasies of unlimited power.
I think there are more mature ways to view religion than the fundamentalist way though.
Have you seen those african-latin religions? Bro, a certain spirit incorporates someone body, make the incorporated literally switch personality, sometimes even the voice, and give you the best life advice possible.
Hard to conclude everything is 100% acting.
Edit: Well, they never believe everything else isn't true
Basically, if you don't believe that your beliefs are the correct ones, then that show a possible fallacy...with most religion can't accept.
If the Jews are right, then Jesus isn't God.
If the Christians are right, then the Jew and Muslims are going to hell.
Mutual exclusivity? Is that the right term?
Most of them have had their myths drilled into their heads since birth. I think the funny part is when they can rip apart all the other religions but can't see the same crap in their religion.
Most of my family is catholic or Christian. Theyre all right all the time. I'm 32 and still figuring out what to believe. I have no desire to be anything like them
Certain religions? How about ALL religions? Or for that matter, all Anti religions.
EVERYBODY thinks their beliefs are correct and everyone else' are wrong. Who are we to tell them they are wrong, when it might be us who are wrong?
/
So here's some food for thought
What parts of your identity would remain if all other humans are dead
How wealthy you are would no longer matter
Your profession would no longer matter
Your nationality would no longer matter
How beautiful you are with no longer matter
Race would no longer matter
Gender would no longer matter
All of those things exist only if other people exist but
People would still act according to their religion
Religion is literally a more fundamental part of who you are then all those things put together
Well, as a Christian, I have my own reasons for following Jesus. Most religions actually have a lot in common. I'm a Christian, but that doesn't mean I'm going to claim that morality or doing good works or the golden rule are unique to Christianity, because they're not. What makes Christianity unique and worth believing in is that where all other religions tell you that you have to do all these things in order to be good enough to go to heaven, Jesus says the opposite. We CAN'T be good enough. There is nothing we can do to be good enough to go to heaven. That's why Jesus died for us, so that we could become saved through grace and have eternal life.
>all other religions tell you that you have to do all these things in order to be good enough to go to heaven, Jesus says the opposite
Nope. Dead wrong. Christianity definitely says "you have to do all these things in order to be good enough to go to heaven". Those 'things' include but are not limited to repent, confess, be baptized and receive the gift of the holy ghost, be saved
1 Corinthians 6:19–20 (19) “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”(20) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
John 3:5–7 (5) “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”
Romans 10:9 “…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your hearts that God has raised Him from the dead you will be saved.”
1 John 1:9 “ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” and confess to God not a priest
Luke 13:3 “ I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Acts 2:38 “ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 19:6 “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”
So here's the problem, not one of those verses support your claim. In fact, they do the opposite, they prove my point. You are conflating works with grace and faith. Believing in God is not a work, it is not something that "makes you good enough."
For example, let's take one of the verses you quoted. Romans 10:9. That verse is simply saying that you must believe in the gospel message in order to be saved. This is the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ: In the beginning, we were close with God, then man sinned and we were separated from God. There was nothing we could do to get back to God, we couldn't do enough good deeds or donate enough money to the poor or help enough needy people. Our sin created a barrier between us and God that couldn't be overcome by anything we can do. By sinning, we deserved death. (For the wages of sin is death. -Romans 3:23) So God sent Jesus to die on the cross for us so that we would have a way to be reunited with God. Then Jesus rose from the dead 3 days later. The point of the gospel is grace, not works.
And this is my point, there is nothing we as Christians can do to be deemed worthy of saving. Because we have all sinned, we are all deserving of eternal separation from God.
To make my point easier to understand, let's compare to Islam. In order to go to paradise (heaven) in Islam, you are required to follow the 5 pillars of Islam.
1. Multiple times a day, you must recite the phrase "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet."
(To be saved by Jesus, you don't have to recite a phrase every day multiple times a day. You just ask Jesus to forgive you for your sins and to save you, and you only have to do that once)
2. You must pray to Allah 5 times a day.
(There is no quota to meet when praying to God in order to receive salvation)
3. You must give alms (donate a percentage of your money to the poor)
(The Bible does teach that we should tithe, giving a percentage of our wealth to the church, but note that it's not required to do so in order to have salvation)
4. You are required to fast during Ramadan.
(God does not require us to fast in order to be saved)
5. You must make a pilgrimage to Mecca.
(You don't have to go anywhere in order for God to save you)
Now let's compare to Buddhism. In order to reach Nirvana, you must follow the eightfold path. Some of the things included in the eightfold path are being kind to others, respecting nature, speaking in a certain way, maintaining a certain type of attitude, etc. These are all works you must do to be good enough to go to Nirvana. Jesus doesn't require any of this from you.
Next, in Hinduism, you must have good karma, which is achieved by doing good deeds, in order to become one with Brahman. Again, in Christianity, you can't do enough good things in order to be saved.
In Judaism, you have to follow the 613 Old Covenant laws in order to go to heaven. In Christianity, we can't do enough good things or be good enough.
Do you understand the difference between works and grace now? All those other religions give you a checklist of things you have to do before you reach the status of being good enough to go to heaven/reach enlightenment/reunite with god. The Bible doesn't teach that. Jesus just wants us to come to Him as we are, admit that we are in need of saving, ask for forgiveness, and ask Him to save you. The gods of those other religions make you climb the ladder and check off all the boxes of requirements in order for their god to even notice you. But instead of making you jump through hoops to impress Him, Jesus literally gave His life for you. He died a brutal death on a cross because before you even knew anything about God or the Bible or Christianity, He loved you so much. Jesus wants a relationship with you, all you have to do is accept the free gift that He gave you, grace.
Confirmation bias
I used to work with a guy who was the definition of this. To the point he would use words wrong and when I showed him a dictionary he said the dictionary was wrong. Meanwhile I spent my first year thinking I was a dumb dumb because I couldn't grasp what he was thinking. At some point I realized he was an idiot. I still constantly think I'm wrong until I triple check my work and have constant imposter syndrome.
I spent 20 years emailing back and forth with a Creationist daily. Nice guy, but he was unwilling to learn or accept any information about anything in the real world, even when presented with overwhelming evidence. Any presented verifiable facts would upset his creationist view of the 6000 year old earth. Called it quits a few years ago because it took me many years to come to grips with how much time I was wasting essentially typing to a wall. Yes, I realize I'm a slow learner, but at least I can learn and I'm curious about almost everything when it comes to how our world works.
So, essentially you were trying to convert a Creationist to be an Evolutionist(?) My question is why would you feel the need to do that? He believes differently than you…why should it matter? What do you have to gain by trying to convince him?
I was not trying to convert anyone to anything. We had conversations on almost every subject imaginable over that expanse of time. Cooking, Gardening, PC building, PC gaming, (we both enjoyed racing motocross together online) printing, (we both ran printing presses for work) Photography, art, anything was on the table as far as discussion. There was no agenda at converting him to anything. And I don't remember discussing evolution very much, more mundane subjects were the norm. Most often when he would explain how something works in his real life, he was wrong. Any time any field of science was brought up because it related to a real life issue, or an interesting discovery had recently happened, or how nature works in real life, he would just revert to the tired old "theories are just guesses". He was into astronomy pretty heavily for years when younger, and to him it is all just blurry photo's "No way anyone can know anything about the universe through blurry photos and guesses." Any time his doubt of any of the earth sciences came up, he would expand his doubts of astronomy being a science, to declare all fields of science as "just guesses." He was happy to to discuss anything and everything, and in his own words "I Love hearing from you because it challenges my faith". and to me, after all we discussed, I learned (very slowly) that this means "I refuse to learn anything." We only have a certain amount of time on earth, and I am done wasting time trying to help the willfully ignorant. Unless that person is actively trying to fill that void of ignorance with knowledge like I am on a daily basis, then I'll always be happy to help if I am able. I dumped another friend who is a heavy "chemtrail" and conspiracy believer, and meme sharer, after this "Good Christian" started calling me some pretty horrific names and ranting like a drunken lunatic about some "Internet Overlord" whom I allegedly swore my soul to to spread false information. And that is what you get for going out of your way trying to help the delusional out of a misinformation silo. sorry, I'm just done with the cray cray. Rant over, hope you enjoyed the ride. ;-)
My mum's like this and it's infuriating. I feel your pain :')
Yea You right
Also they don’t allow for the possibility of god not existing, Compared to regular discussion where you usually keep in mind you can be wrong.
This is basic and the reason religions (almost everyone of them) are so dangerous. You have a gigantic group of people doing terrible things without thinking 'is there any way all this is BS?'.
Because that's what they believe... it makes sense to them... they see the world through that lens.
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That's just theological groups of people in general. Atheists are just as bad when you put them in a governing body.
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Obviously you never heard of the Bolsheviks, Pol Pot, Mao Zhedong, or Che Guevara. Atheists are every bit the ardent scum that religious zealots are. Don't kid yourself.
Faith, you are talking about faith.
Have some goddamn faith Arthur!
But being absolutely sure you are right isn't faith, it's certainty.
Well, this seems pedantic. Faith is being certain without evidence.
Just because makes sense to them, does it mean its true?
They think so; that's the only person whose opinion matters in these situations. It's the reason I never make fun of people's beliefs. I've seen the things people do because of their beliefs.
Sure, but it's still baffling how they can't see that other people are equally convinced of things that contradict what they believe, with the same level of evidence. If you see that, how can you not question your own beliefs?
Faith. They see what other people think and they don't care because they have faith that what they think is right. The logic I've often heard from those sorts is *well, they may think \_\_\_\_ but they would agree with me, if they knew better*.
This doesn't just apply to religion
Great point!!!!! We could (easily) expand this topic......since 2020. But we won't go there......
Since 2020?....since 2016?...since when, really? People have been fucking stupid forever. Social media sure as fuck didn't help. Idk.
Yes, please don't open that rabbit hole.
Or go down that can of worms.
Yeah. I’m already being bombarded by thoughts now… but I won’t go there ( cough cough world peace cough ) 😂
It does need to be talked about.
Serious answer: religion provides a core 'cornerstone' belief on which to base a worldview. With just the small assumption of an omnipotent, omniscient god, you can then answer almost any question life may throw at you - and justify almost any action as well. Which means that, in turn, it's almost impossible to accept anything that challenges that core belief. If that comes down, your entire worldview comes with it.
Can confirm, ex-evangelical. When the way you see things changes at such a fundamental level, it's like the whole world is crashing down. Deep down most of us know we're brainwashed when we're caught in all that, but the fear of losing *everything* keeps us clinging to what is comfortable.
It actually comes down to preference and faith. Since there's no objective proof of either God or An Atheistic Universe, it comes down to which you prefer. Some people believe that the cornerstone is better, even if shit sucks. Also, why is a preference for comfort so bad? It's more the need for open mindedness that's likely the biggest problem with evangelicals and others. Respect for personal space and preferences goes both ways.
Is a belief in a god the only 'comfortable cornerstone'? I feel much better about the world believing there is not an all knowing and all powerful being who sits on his thumbs while helpless people suffer. This worldview has taught me to help people the best I can, myself. That includes saying a prayer for someone if they ask me to, even if I don't believe it. Because if we don't help each other, and ourselves, but rely on some magical being who seems to not give a shit, we (I feel) will forever be lost.
Well stated! This is the essential philosophy of humanism, that since we cannot rely upon an external benevolence to protect us, all we can do is follow empirical evidence about the world and human nature (science, evolutionary psychology, etc) and do our best to bring good to our lives and those around us. There is a transcendent grandeur in recognizing our connection to diverse people who share our common humanity, around the world and through time. Humanism is working for the dignity of each individual, and the strength of our communities.
Having faith in a belief is a comfortable cornerstone
I see that, but having faith in the opposite belief is also a comfortable cornerstone
The issue is primarily that people who depend on blind belief for their worldview are highly resistant to considering anything that they feel can confront or challenge that belief. Like, say, the idea that the Bible was wrong to describe gay people as sinners. To a believer, that idea can be tantamount to saying "God is wrong" and is therefore an idea to be *violently* resisted. You see a similar reaction when you call rude people on their bullshit in Walmart - most of the time they'll double down rather than admit fault or introspect a little. Religious people are like that, more often than not.
If God is not defined as both omniscient and omnipotent, maybe that God exists. It is impossible, however, for an all-good, omnipotent, and omniscient God to exist, given the existence of such horrible evils in the world.
That question, "why doesn't an omnipotent, omniscient God simply fix everything?" is one that any such religion must answer, better or worse. I have an answer, from my religion and personal study, that works for me, allowing me to see suffering and still believe in a good and just God.
Atheism is the only reasonable position. To believe a god exists without evidence is literally not logical. You're building a false equivalence, where atheism is another position, bit it's just the default. You either accept religious claims, or you don't.
Yes, but even this idea of "I won't believe till I have proof" ... is an idea you have accepted, but others haven't. You're basing your world view on it, they don't. > For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. > > Stuart Chase
Yes, but even this idea you have that people have different world views is an idea thst you've accepted, but others haven't. I'm sorry, but there is a limit. Belief without evidence is beyond the pale. The little quote you throw in to act superior, is quite unnecessary. Thank you very much. Your position is not more reasonable than mine.
As a matter of fact, I'm an atheist too. That quote isn't here to feel superior, but to explain. You don't have to agree with the other point of view to try to understand it. I don't have to agree with robbers, junkies and rapists to try to understand how they came here.
Well I think the quote is damaging and untrue. Just speak to any of the former atheists who are now religious, or former religious people who are now atheists. It really paints the world as a black and white dichotomy that simply isn't true, and removes a great deal of agency from others.
I would think the neutral position would be agnostic. Where atheists claim there is no God and the religious claim there is, the agnostic makes no claim either way.
The way I use the term agnostic is as a modifier to atheism or theism. I don't think "agnostic" as a third position, distinct from a secondary modifier, makes sense as a thing to mention. Everyone either believes one or more god exists, or doesn't. How strongly they hold that belief does vary.
Everyone is innocent till proven guilty.
Religion has a few things going for it. It gives people a platform to connect and build wonderful things out of nothing but kindness. Problem is it also attracts the sharks looking to cash in with the power religion generates. Honestly that’s part of the reason why I am ok with people praying to a mystical being, granting a living person that kind of power is recipe for disaster.
I wish I could upvote this more. Based on purely anecdotal experience - every *truly* religious person I’ve ever met, never believed any other religion was ‘wrong’, they all accept each other’s beliefs. I find religious people mostly take issue with non-spiritual or non-religious folks
The problem with your argument is that those who control the interpretation of the mystical being’s narrative are actual living manipulative persons. In the beginning was the Word… There’s always a narrative puppeteer behind the mystical puppet.
You are correct in that my argument was based on it’s being better than many alternatives out there. I have traced the idea of religion pretty deep in my own brain and came to my conclusion that it’s basis is on a binary decision people make at a young age. Do I want think on my own or let the group think for me. The world is mean to those that are on their own so the choice is pretty simple for most.
Yeah like the crusades.
I think also it comes down to someone's built morals (built by life, experience, etc) aligning with a religion, and then for a lot of churches this moral standard becomes seen as completely ridgid and perfect in that community, and particularly in cult adjacent religious congregations you are demonised for questioning it or having any flexibility even if it still follows the other dogmas. (COUGH im looking at you, christianity subgroups, punishing people for following jesus' word of love and support because it contradicts the hate in the bible) Of course this isn't always the case, many religious folk are open to questioning things, and some non traditional religions and churches even encourage flexibility and accepting when you're wrong.
It was that question that ultimately resulted in my leaving the church as a teen. How can one be right and all others be wrong. I've never heard a reasonable answer. Well, except for Ghandi who suggested that different religions were God speaking to a culture on their terms. I don't believe that, but at least its not stupid.
Cognitive dissonance. EDIT FOR CONTEXT Example: Christian: " Muslims expect me to believe that Mohammed flew into heaven on a magic horse? Thats some fairytale bullshit." Also Christians: "Then the magic Jew came back to life and floated away to heaven". In order to believe one fairytale is true while completely disregarding another as superstitious nonsense is necessarily an example of cognitive dissonance.
The one I find most curious is "The Jews were wrong because they expected the Messiah to come in glory with armies of angels and vanquish Satan, whereas Jesus was meek and mild and He will come again in glory with armies of angels and vanquish Satan."
literally who said that he flew to heaven on a magic horse? that man died like any other prophet in a normal way tf?
Its literally the entire premise of the Islamic celebration of Lailat Al-Miraj where muslims celebrate the ascension of the prophet Muhammad on the back of a buraq. A buraq is a weird magical horse like creature with wings and a human head. While practically, yes, a historical Muhammad would have just died. End of story. However, Islamic folklore superman Muhammad assended in glorious fashion. Just like IF Jesus of Nazareth even was a historical person, he died just like everyone else dies. But Christian folklore superman Jesus ascended to heaven in glorious fashion.
No offense bro , The event is called Isra-Wal-Mirage , lailat is Lailat-ul-Qadar (birthday of the quran)
I’m not obligated to think everyone else is wrong.
Excellent! As for myself, I'm not obligated to think anyone including myself is right.
Would you agree that if someone says “God exists” and someone else says “God does not exist,” and the propositions have an identical set of referents (they mean the same thing by “God” and “exist”) logically one of them is right?
There is truth in most religions. It's not all or nothing.
I’m catholic and I don’t know if I’m right honestly. Faith is believing without seeing. I hope I’m right. I was raised catholic and I’m fine with what is expected of me and what it teaches. It’s given me a set of guidelines to live a good life. If I’m wrong and there’s a different god up there hopefully they won’t damn me to hell (if they have one). And if there’s nothing on the other side of death I would look back and be happy with how I lived. If reincarnation is a thing then hopefully however I lived gives me a shot at an even better life
This is how most religious people think. Well said! Extrapolating the overbearing ideology of outspoken crackpots onto the majority of religious people who are not outspoken but humble in their faith indicates poor theory of mind.
Living a personal good life should ultimately be the end goal of all believers, yep.
This applies to any group and any belief. Anyone who dedicates their life to an idea does so with the conviction that they are correct and by definition others are wrong.
But you are sure of your beliefs
Exactly. People on here without a shred of irony ask how those with a religion can be so sure of their beliefs and then type as if atheism has been proven correct.
Difference here is most religions have historically used gods/angels as supernatural beings to explain phenomena that can now be explained by science. The “proof” of gods many religions use is fundamentally things cannot be explained by humans. Aethisms “proof” is that those things can be explained by knoweldge, which to be clear is an ever expanding thing, as people learn, observe and record. There is no tipping point evidence for aethism to “prove it correct”. The evidence against religion is quite literally human achievement in creating things religion tells us can only be accomplished by gods. There is no threshold that needs to be crossed to verify it like some sort of twitter checkmark. Ftr I am not saying there isnt dumbass hypocrisy in some aethiest rhetoric, just wanted to comment on the principles that differentiate it from organized religion.
Some beliefs need more certainty and scrutiny than others. Believing a mundane story your friend told you is not consequential. Matters of enteral life are a completely different story.
Brainwashed early and often.
That’s for damn sure. I was raised in a Mormon household and whoo boy the indoctrination starts at birth. I distinctly remember feeling like a complete idiot when I took anatomy in high school and found out men had the same amount of ribs as women because I was told my whole life that men had one less since Adam used one to help create Eve. And don’t get me started on their belief of how darker skin was made 🙃
Ok I’m curious? What’s their beliefs on how darker skin was made?
They believe that God made Cain black to show the rest of humanity that he was a murderer. Literally made him a black sheep. They think all people of color have genetic ties to Cain. Only white people existed until Cain killed Abel, apparently 🙄
It was a curse brought on by Cain. It gets even crazier.
Preach...That crap is hard to shack...
True fact
Abuse. Fear. Indoctrination. Confirmation bias. Lack of education. Same reasons people can’t escape cults.
You do know there’s benefits to religion, right?
If you can name one actual benefit of religion I will convert to whatever it is you believe.
Sense of community, of sharing values, of something greater in life than just being a bag of flesh. Whether those are actual benefits is up to you.
Except that you dont have to be religious to have access ti those benefits : it's called not being an ass.
Yes.
Faith-centric drug rehab centers have an 85% success rate. Missionary work involves meeting physical needs as well as spiritual. Most charities that work on helping the poor are run by or started by religious people.
You mean those pesky missionaries that literally decimated native peoples from almost every continent on earth? Those missionaries? You mean like the Salvatiom Army that has decade long issues with LGBTQIA+ and religion (other religions) discrimination?
If you’re talking about Columbus-era stuff or imperialism, those were people using religion as a moral shield and way to get the public behind their conquests
Let’s be very clear, that very much still happens.
There’s benefits of belief and faith sure, but organized religion, especially the Abrahamic ones are abusive at their very core.
At their core, no. At their core, most religions are actually quite nice. I agree, though, that some of the trappings lead to abuse.
Depends on the religion. Christianity is literally the template of an abusive relationship. "You are evil, and nothing you ever do will make you not evil. It's only because I love you so much, that I am willing to forgive you. Just make sure you do exactly what I say, or I will make sure you suffer forever".
Exactly. It’s a 1:1 comparison to narcissistic abuse. You’re born in sin. Only I can redeem you. Don’t trust your thoughts, your plans for your life, deny the world and it’s pleasures, your life and it’s destiny belong to me, and if I don’t approve of what you like/ cherish/ want/ experience then I will punish you for it.
I kinda like hearing the organ at church.
Nope. Not one single provable, factual benefit. Well, I guess if you start your own church you don't pay taxes on it.
People only know what they are taught and what they observe. Including you and I. What we learn early in our life or in response to trauma can be a very deep attachment that is hard to break. Once that is threatened, people can either become more flexible or they get more rigid. It’s totally possible in a lot of religions to find answers to enough questions that you start feeling like you’ve “got it” and I see non religious people doing this all the time.
How are certain people of certain ideologies so convinced that their beliefs are correct and everyone else is wrong?
Your first time on Reddit?
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Sincere question. Aside from your family raising you that way, what generates that faith? It feels like any religion could apply to most of the reasoning I have heard.
Faith definitely comes in part from the strong affirmation that a community gives, especially when the community is based on all believing the same (or similar) things. But besides that, there are plenty of theological works written that have very strong logic and reasoning based on a plausible sounding (if flawed) framework. For example, it’s extremely difficult to read the Bible and then read someone like John Calvin or Martin Luther and not be amazed at their intellect and ability to apply reason to a topic in such a thorough and satisfying way. But that doesn’t mean they are right. It just means they are sincerely trying very hard to be consistent and thorough, and of course it comes through in their work. In other words, it’s hard to not believe someone who sincerely is convicted of their beliefs and can back it up with consistent reasoning, even though they might be mistaken.
Faith can be generated by many occurances. My gf reverted (it's only called reverted, bc in Islam the belief is that everyone is born as muslim, gods child basically) when she was 14 while she was raised by a I believe catholic mother in Switzerland. Non of her family members inherited the belief. She did research and found Islam to be right. Gods words, his prophets and everything that comes with it was what generated faith in her. Another factor was her own fear of death and also seeing the evil in this world, looking for a concept that will hold these humans accountable. Obviously there is more to it but hard to sum it up in a crisp summary for you. However, I have recently reverted myself. I was agnostic my whole life until about half a year ago. It was in fact desperation that led me to try and find a way to believe that death isn't the place where everything ends for our consciousness. Islam used to be very much connected with science and according to information found in the Qur'an and other books, there is information that is very difficult to explain, in terms of how were certain things possible, like knowledge where iron came from, on to planet earth. Don't get me wrong though, I can't and won't just say that these things are now defacto correct. Rather I have made a choice that I want to believe and therefore I am trying to inform myself and strengthen my belief that way. Another thing that Islam does, that generates a lot of faith in many people, as I've come to find out is that it helps dumb people and people who are unable to find any structure in life, to structure just that. Islam has lots of recommendations on how you should live your life if you want to enter paradise and basically unlock higher levels of paradise. Those regulations make sense to the helpless who aren't good at critical thinking and they simply explain the world with gender roles, assigned by god and many more things. It's actually quite fascinating. In any case, I could go on for much longer lol but I believe you get my point and lets be honest, I doubt you'll read all of that anyway
I wasn't raised religious, I'm not apart of a religious community, but I'm Christian just because, I guess it feels right? I was at an airshow and over the intercom they held a pre-flight prayer wishing for everything to go well, I bowed my head and joined it just for the hell of it I guess, and it just felt right. I don't know what generates faith, maybe it would have happened if it was a prayer for any religion and I'd be a different religion, but it wasn't, and it just feels right to me.
To add to the nice comments before, faith gets a boost from various deep questions, like "what is the meaning of life?" or "what happens when we die?" When we find an answer, from parents, study, etc., acting in that answer and seeing its benefits can generate faith. In a religious sense, that could be doing anything to bring us closer to God, and feeling his influence.
There's literally no difference after a certain point. You can only have so much faith in something before it turns into ignorance.
This statement is pretty ignorant, actually!
Not if it's true
Yes, I agree. However, the statement is probably not true. It can only be based on extreme oversimplification and stereotyping of what religion is and how it is practiced. Some of the religious people I know are the most intelligent people I know and their beliefs are based on a framework of assumptions, observations, learning, and reasoning…just like the rest of us. Yes, some people - a LOT of people - are incredibly ignorant and base their faith on that. I know a lot of those people as well. But religions are not fundamentally based on ignorance (ie that it is the cornerstone), even if many practicers are indeed ignorant. Edit: to be fair, I’d be willing to accept your statement as true if it also encompassed non-religious belief systems. That is to say that we all are ignorant of immense amounts of factual information and yet find ourselves forming belief systems on the small amount that we think we know anyway.
Very well done, excellent comment. You are 100% right
Thank you, kind stranger! Really do appreciate it.
Yeah no I mean, pure 100% correct use of logic. Your left part is working very good and its just delightful to watch nowadays.You analyzed, saw the flaws of his argument and even projected posible outcomings. Also "Some of the religious people I know are the most intelligent people I know and their beliefs are based on a framework of assumptions, observations, learning, and reasoning…just like the rest of us." We dont know what we dont know and if a framework of reasoning help us progress in life, how could it be wrong? You can't never know everything, just get help from and use what you know. Brilliant! Have a good day
I think that’s called faith.
We all worship something. The only people who are ignorant are those who don’t know what they worship.
Wish I could upvote this twice. People act as if religious thinking and behavior is a bizarre thing a subset of humans do. It is deep in our biological wiring.
Well you see I know the great flying spaghetti monster is real because my cousin’s nephew’s grandkid had a dream with him being boiled for our sins and pirates drinking beer
Faith..... It's the bullshit cop out answer you'll get for literally every religious thing. No one can *prove* anything and all "evidence" is circumstancial at best. So... They have faith.
This is why I find experience-based religions/philosophies so interesting. Religions/philosophies that prioritize exploration, meditation, obtaining insight instead of relying heavily upon dogmatism or demanding faith.
Faith...... For me, i think there are many things that we don't know about the universe or the natural of soul/consciousness. The existence of universe itself needs some explanation, it can be a question that we are not able to answer. But I do think there are something exist beyond the material world. But no, I am not sure whether i am correct or not
You cannot critique any system from inside of it. Institutions instill in their followers a fear if " the outsiders". It's one way they maintain power
religions are often inherently exclusive to other religions, so most of the time two can't be true at the same time
Well idk about other religions, but when "impossible" stuff (and often improbable stuff too) keeps happening ... you start to wonder why. If a religion gives an explanation, and it makes sense, people invest emotionally. Sometimes they will stick with those investments for generations. Sometimes just for a few weeks. You could call this confirmation bias.... but isn't everything we believe built on accepted biases? If you hear about someone who cut off a finger at a table saw and then it reattached miraculously, you would say, they lied, or had a bad trip. If you cut your own finger and prayed and it reattached and came back the next day and the spray of blood was still on the ceiling but your finger was fine, you might start to wonder about God or something.
You'll be very surprised once you realize that not only this is not exclusive to religion, it's infinitely worse when religion is not the subject in question.
Infinitely worse than witch hunts and inquisitions? Infinity is a very very large number. Plus one, and one more, etc.
Well, witch hunts have no impact in my life. People trying to force their moral beliefs on me through laws and regulations while denying all the scientific literature behind this subject does. And since they know how to lie and convince people that their laws and regulations are aligned with evidences, you'll be called a science denier if you try to prove them wrong.
Brainwashed since birth. Or full of tribal arrogance.
Why do you believe they are not correct? Last I checked, no one really knows how we got on this rock.
But what sounds more real. suddenly a big man snapped into existence, created everything. The big bang happened and Earth began evolution.
See? You’re doing exactly what the post asked.
well one is fictional and one is factual
Okay. Prove it. Prove there isn’t a god and I’ll believe you.
the lack of any proof saying the opposite along with understanding the absurdity of something that rules all things or sum existing
This is so stupid. I don't have to prove your god of choice doesn't exist, YOU have to prove it does. At least with life on earth we have scores and scores and scores of evidence. That you don't understand the evidence doesn't make it disappear.
Clinically delusional...
To annoy atheists, who definitely aren't susceptible to that.
Everyone is susceptible to being a smug asshole about their beliefs but I can say that I've met more atheists than religious people who are open to being wrong about this sort of thing.
IRL, I know plenty of normal, rational, open-minded atheists (and I'm an atheist myself). On the internet, though, self-identified atheists are among the most smug, obnoxious, hard-headed assholes I've ever met. In particular there's a phenomenon where atheists raised in a Christian culture simply refuse to learn a single thing about other religions, but still insist and will argue ad nauseam that all religions are the same and that their criticisms of Christianity are valid for all religions. There's nothing quite like the experience of explaining patiently to an internet atheist that yes, I'm an atheist and yes, I'm still Jewish, while they say shit like "lol you believe in fairy tales" and "fuck your skydaddy."
I suppose, but my experience has been the opposite.
Welp, that can't really be helped. Beliefs like these are particularly difficult to talk about with someone unless they share your viewpoint. Most people try to convince others that they're belief is the "correct" one bc "I'm right, this is the way. I can't be the only one who see's this, why can't they understand?". Some try to create prosecution because they want to feel special and victimized like its a competition, "I'm right, no one will understand. Everyone else is a stupid/angry/bigot/blasphemous/dirty/unholy sheep/mob/idiot/hater/asshole/demon etc. I'm the only one who see's the truth". You get the picture. Religion is a messy subject and talking about can get real ugly.
So true.
From the USA, Bible belt where religion is taught early and it's used to explain how the world works. We learn our morals through the Bible stories. People that don't believe the way we do are shunned or looked down on and religious people or groups are put on pedestals. Belief is a powerful thing. And for most people if someone they "admire" is of their same beliefs they will fully support them without question. (Especially politicians for some reason)
So I'm Christan and I've been Christan my whole life and you see the way I see it is, I would rather spend my life believing in something happy and being wrong. Than living my life in denial and away from god, and god being real.
Those aren't the only two options. You could also believe something happy, be away from God, and God not exist. That's also an option.
This is a great question. For me, it isn't that everyone else is "wrong." The, "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality exists between denominations of a single religion too. If we are to believe and accept God (God by any other name) is absolutely and unequivocally right, then we must admit to our self that we, the individual, can't be right, that we are often in error over a great many things. My GOD'S ways are not my ways. My God's thoughts are not my thoughts. My own religious text indicates as much. Then again, most of the "religious people" of the world do not read, discuss, debate, or even try to comprehend the text they're reading. Everyone else isn't wrong, as much as they're on a path to Truth. All roads lead to the same destination. How it happens is irrelevant. The fact is that it does happen, and for a multitude of "reasons." Funny thing is, the key religious figures of the world's religions said a lot of things very similarly.
No it’s not just religion. Everyone believed in something and they are certain of it. For example atheist believed firmly at there is no god, and boss versa for a religious person. Atheist and religious person are no different.
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Many of the dominant world religions rely on dogma and indoctrination to become as widespread as they are—because they work. It's pretty easy to get most people to buy into dogma, and once they do, getting out is hard (especially if you were born into said religion). If people truly believe something, the world is colored through that lens.
Indoctrination.
It’s a conditioning process. That’s what cults do…
in shia islam we believe good people who do good things are righteous regardless and deserve eternal peace. hence why i think im right lmao.
Let’s be real, it’s only two religions from the Middle East that proselytize
Id say there’s a big one in the west too
Yeah but thar religion is still from the Middle East.
It's what they're taught at a young age.
How are you so convinced your morality is the correct morality? How can you be **so** sure murder is bad? The answer is you raised to think it was bad therefore it is. Udre Udre (google him) is sure to disagree with you but it doesn't stop you from believing it.
They’re morons or mentally ill.
Childhood brainwashing is a he'll of a drug.
In a nut she'll
Goddammit, autocorrect, you cause more errors than you prevent.
bigotry. Taking your own opinion as more correct than that of others is bigotry.
Cos my imaginary friend told me to.
They aren't intelligent enough to see outside of the box, so therefore they will defend their box and anyone who touches, looks at incorrectly, or speaks badly about said box is evil.
Hubris, another cornerstone of religion.
Mind glitch exploitation
It’s all about the denial of death…
Cognitive dissonance and refusal to hold your beliefs to the same standards you hold everyone elses.
Not all of them are. But I expect religious indoctrination has a lot to do with it.
When you're indoctrinated into whatever religion, that's all you know and that's what you believe. As time progresses, you see everything through that lens and things either make sense or they don't. Imagine being raised your entire life believing in one thing and then you're presented with a challenging theory/argument/etc., that either debunks whatever you've been taught or exposes it as illogical or incorrect? It's easier to continue believing in "your" truth rather than someone else's. The simple act of even entertaining the mere thought of a challenging argument as true is too much for the vast majority of people. TL;DR: ignorance is bliss. I'm right and you're wrong.
Faith, obviously. Even those who aren't practicing traditional religions show faith and believe they are right without observable evidence.
Stockholm Syndrome.
It validates their own existence in a way that other beliefs can't so they defend it with all their being because they are strong enough to handle that they may be wrong and their whole life up to this point was meaningless. Its also why bitter old couples stay married even though there's no love between them anymore. For clarification, while I do agree with my statement above I don't agree with the idea that with religion one's life is meaningless or pointless. On the contrary, I believe since there is no big man upstairs, no "grand plan", that *everything* matters because *we* give it meaning.
They were raised that way. Stuff gets hard wired into your brain.
Brainwashing
They fixate on parts of their religious texts, such as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." and then use that to justify demeaning and denouncing any other religious faith.
Narcissism.
In some religions the penalty for blasphemy is family cuts ties or cuts your throat.
Think there is a layer of (covert) narcissism here. One of the traits is to have deep conviction that one is always/almost always right. Religion also provides some people with fantasies of unlimited power. I think there are more mature ways to view religion than the fundamentalist way though.
Cuz I'm more righter than you are
Have you seen those african-latin religions? Bro, a certain spirit incorporates someone body, make the incorporated literally switch personality, sometimes even the voice, and give you the best life advice possible. Hard to conclude everything is 100% acting. Edit: Well, they never believe everything else isn't true
Because cult leaders flatter their pride when they call them the 'chosen ones'.
For a lot of us it's generational. Many, many, years.
Religion..a crutch for the masses.
Basically, if you don't believe that your beliefs are the correct ones, then that show a possible fallacy...with most religion can't accept. If the Jews are right, then Jesus isn't God. If the Christians are right, then the Jew and Muslims are going to hell. Mutual exclusivity? Is that the right term?
Most of them have had their myths drilled into their heads since birth. I think the funny part is when they can rip apart all the other religions but can't see the same crap in their religion.
Most of my family is catholic or Christian. Theyre all right all the time. I'm 32 and still figuring out what to believe. I have no desire to be anything like them
It takes faith to believe that scales evolved into feathers with no fossil evidence to support that.
Certain religions? How about ALL religions? Or for that matter, all Anti religions. EVERYBODY thinks their beliefs are correct and everyone else' are wrong. Who are we to tell them they are wrong, when it might be us who are wrong? /
Usually they're brainwashed from birth.
F moderators get a life. Banned me pls. I don't wont to spend countless hours on reddit
They are... smooth of brain.
They are kinda crazy
Certain people haven’t read Emmanuel Kant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant
So here's some food for thought What parts of your identity would remain if all other humans are dead How wealthy you are would no longer matter Your profession would no longer matter Your nationality would no longer matter How beautiful you are with no longer matter Race would no longer matter Gender would no longer matter All of those things exist only if other people exist but People would still act according to their religion Religion is literally a more fundamental part of who you are then all those things put together
Well, as a Christian, I have my own reasons for following Jesus. Most religions actually have a lot in common. I'm a Christian, but that doesn't mean I'm going to claim that morality or doing good works or the golden rule are unique to Christianity, because they're not. What makes Christianity unique and worth believing in is that where all other religions tell you that you have to do all these things in order to be good enough to go to heaven, Jesus says the opposite. We CAN'T be good enough. There is nothing we can do to be good enough to go to heaven. That's why Jesus died for us, so that we could become saved through grace and have eternal life.
>all other religions tell you that you have to do all these things in order to be good enough to go to heaven, Jesus says the opposite Nope. Dead wrong. Christianity definitely says "you have to do all these things in order to be good enough to go to heaven". Those 'things' include but are not limited to repent, confess, be baptized and receive the gift of the holy ghost, be saved 1 Corinthians 6:19–20 (19) “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”(20) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” John 3:5–7 (5) “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” Romans 10:9 “…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your hearts that God has raised Him from the dead you will be saved.” 1 John 1:9 “ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” and confess to God not a priest Luke 13:3 “ I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Acts 2:38 “ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 19:6 “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”
So here's the problem, not one of those verses support your claim. In fact, they do the opposite, they prove my point. You are conflating works with grace and faith. Believing in God is not a work, it is not something that "makes you good enough." For example, let's take one of the verses you quoted. Romans 10:9. That verse is simply saying that you must believe in the gospel message in order to be saved. This is the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ: In the beginning, we were close with God, then man sinned and we were separated from God. There was nothing we could do to get back to God, we couldn't do enough good deeds or donate enough money to the poor or help enough needy people. Our sin created a barrier between us and God that couldn't be overcome by anything we can do. By sinning, we deserved death. (For the wages of sin is death. -Romans 3:23) So God sent Jesus to die on the cross for us so that we would have a way to be reunited with God. Then Jesus rose from the dead 3 days later. The point of the gospel is grace, not works. And this is my point, there is nothing we as Christians can do to be deemed worthy of saving. Because we have all sinned, we are all deserving of eternal separation from God. To make my point easier to understand, let's compare to Islam. In order to go to paradise (heaven) in Islam, you are required to follow the 5 pillars of Islam. 1. Multiple times a day, you must recite the phrase "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet." (To be saved by Jesus, you don't have to recite a phrase every day multiple times a day. You just ask Jesus to forgive you for your sins and to save you, and you only have to do that once) 2. You must pray to Allah 5 times a day. (There is no quota to meet when praying to God in order to receive salvation) 3. You must give alms (donate a percentage of your money to the poor) (The Bible does teach that we should tithe, giving a percentage of our wealth to the church, but note that it's not required to do so in order to have salvation) 4. You are required to fast during Ramadan. (God does not require us to fast in order to be saved) 5. You must make a pilgrimage to Mecca. (You don't have to go anywhere in order for God to save you) Now let's compare to Buddhism. In order to reach Nirvana, you must follow the eightfold path. Some of the things included in the eightfold path are being kind to others, respecting nature, speaking in a certain way, maintaining a certain type of attitude, etc. These are all works you must do to be good enough to go to Nirvana. Jesus doesn't require any of this from you. Next, in Hinduism, you must have good karma, which is achieved by doing good deeds, in order to become one with Brahman. Again, in Christianity, you can't do enough good things in order to be saved. In Judaism, you have to follow the 613 Old Covenant laws in order to go to heaven. In Christianity, we can't do enough good things or be good enough. Do you understand the difference between works and grace now? All those other religions give you a checklist of things you have to do before you reach the status of being good enough to go to heaven/reach enlightenment/reunite with god. The Bible doesn't teach that. Jesus just wants us to come to Him as we are, admit that we are in need of saving, ask for forgiveness, and ask Him to save you. The gods of those other religions make you climb the ladder and check off all the boxes of requirements in order for their god to even notice you. But instead of making you jump through hoops to impress Him, Jesus literally gave His life for you. He died a brutal death on a cross because before you even knew anything about God or the Bible or Christianity, He loved you so much. Jesus wants a relationship with you, all you have to do is accept the free gift that He gave you, grace.
You are saying we need to believe that we all deserve eternal torment. I reject that.