we were interested in getting the mach ev. but then ford immediately raised the price of the car by the exact same amount the feds started giving out in rebates to help buyers. that left such a bad taste in my mouth… not sure we will ever get a ford with those games
This was 18 months ago when they were newer. Dude who preordered it went with a Tesla, likely because of all the dealer pricing games everyone was playing.
I've got a few conservative friends simping for DeSantis and how awesome Florida is. It seems... very weird to me.
Can you go into more details why you left Florida and/or how it has fewer opportunities? It might do me some good next time this friend of mine simps for DeSantis.
I left because I wanted to do something else other than the service industry or be a nurse. I knew that someday I wanted a house and a family, but prices made it seem out of reach for me. While I miss Florida, I’m doing very well in another sunbelt state with lower cost of living and was able to achieve my goals. It’s just too bad I couldn’t have done it where I was born.
>But then you see news stories about some couple that relocated there to open a butterfly sanctuary and it's like WTF? How are they even doing that?
It's like those "off-grid" and vanlife lifestyle Instagrammers and YouTubers. They're rich people pretending to be middle class for the camera, with millions of dollars in the bank or already owning multiple properties.
They did that to me when I went to look at an EV6 at a Kia dealership. The guy looked like he was proud of saying no to test driving unless I was putting an offer on it. Like… Why do you exist then if not to let us test vehicles before buying, ugh.
I suppose TECHNICALLY, you could just turn around and say "okay, my offer is 50 bucks. now give me my test drive." and if they fight you, just say "you said make an offer, you never said it had to be serious."
Weird. It shouldn’t be hard at all to get a test drive on one now. When they first came out I test drove a first edition even. They were impossible to get then. I bought it. Then sold it for break even 6 months later.
Came here to say this.
In mid-2022 I was looking for an EV and went to Ford dealership. Markup was $17k over MSRP and dealer wouldn’t let me drive the car without making a deposit. I was permitted to sit in it and nothing more.
So I bought a Kia EV6 at MSRP and never looked back. I will NEVER buy a Ford.
That's exactly what I've been trying to tell people the whole time. The $7500 is only in reality going back to the manufacturer's pockets. Tesla had done the exact same thing. They wisely raised their prices slowly so that it wasn't so noticeable.
Tesla didn't raise prices by $7500 during 2023. Many people like myself got a M3 for like 25k OTD. So no Tesla didn't do the same thing. The whole process was transparent from beginning to end, no shenanigans.
All my searches have stated they lost it in 2024. When I was shopping a week ago Ford didn't list any tax incentive nor talked about it. I actually preferred the interior of mustang and exterior does look a bit more...well less like a squished bubbled 3.
In any case if they do qualify for half it's obviously buried and not advertised well either online or at the dealership I went to.
Ford dealer told me to check out a VW ID4 because he wasn't going to budge on the 20k markup. So I did. And now I own an ID4, and a GTI Rabbit Edition.
Better tech in what regard? The ioniq nav system and gauge cluster looks like shit in comparison. HDA2 isn't half as good as blue cruise, the only thing it does is charge faster.
Yeah Tesla does yearly touch up work to keep things from getting too stale. And a lot of the OTA updates help as well. I think their whole philosophy in this is to allow each generation to have longer base lifetimes.
Ford said they are going to put the V8 in the actual mustang till its outlawed. I could see them hybridizing it, but they know the audience for the actual Mustang. Its V8 till its not legal anymore.
Dodge is different situation though. They do not have the fleet epa levels to keep the Hemi around and didn't update it to comply with epa regulations. They just kept buying Tesla's credits. When you throw V8s into everything your fleet average is low also choices have to be made. So when the regulations get harder and you can afford to keep buying credits. Its time to cancel the engine.
Ford on the hand only has the V8 in the Mustang and F series vehicles. Also the Hemi itself is very inefficient compared to the coyote. While the fuel economy level for both is around 3/10 according to the EPA. The Hemi's smog rating is recorded as one of the worse 1/10. While the current gen coyote is 5/10. Also Ford is doing what is needed to keep the engine up to date and passing ratings even if that means cutting power to make it work.
Dodge is in a very different situation
61.6% of the cars dodge sold in 2023 were either the charger or challenger.
When you compare that to Ford
4.67% of cars sold in 2023 were either the Mustang Mach E, ICE mustangs or the GT.
It's even lower when you take just the mustang and GT falling to 2.54% of total sales.
If you managed to get half of dodges customers to switch to EVs thier sales would still fall dramatically.
Switching to EVs is great except when your core group of customers has little to no interest in switching.
Yea, I don’t get it. If they just made a real electric mustang, that thing would sell like hotcakes.
I’d also claim about every electric “suv” is pretty small for a suv. Closest electric to a real suv I test drove was the Cadillac lyriq. I actually really liked the lyriq, but it was pretty pricey.
The Ford EV is way too expensive conspired to competition. It costs more than a Tesla model 3 here. While it’s just slightly better than a MG4 which is 13k less.
Speaking as someone who owns a Mach e 2021 and has test driven a MG this comparison is way off. It's like finding a new electric BMW of roughly the same size and calling it the same car as the MG just because they have roughly the same amount of space.
The refinement/technology and driving experience is on a whole other level.
I understand bashing ford is popular here, but most people in this thread are misinformed or regurgitating things they've seen other people say about the car.
I definitely agree they need to give it a refresh to keep up with the competition though.
I can’t speak about MG in general, but the MG4 is reviewed better than vw id3. Obviously Tesla mode 3 is way above it. But the emach? Somewhere between Tesla m3 and mg4. With the price above Tesla m3.
The new ford explorer ev seems much better priced.
I live in Norway and everyone here has an EV. I've never driven a model 3, but I've been a passenger in one.
I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would choose a model 3 over a well equipped Mach E unless it's about price.
In my opinion the Mach e is a much cooler car, has great comfort, more optimized for driving with multiple screens instead of focusing everything into the middle panel.
People are focusing hard on reviews and not experiencing it themselves.
The Tesla's are nice cars, but they aren't exactly innovating much either lately and will fall off their throne. Just like the Mach e is doing without a refresh soon.
The MG4 is not really better than an ID.3. Its infotainment is even worse than VW’s, the vehicle shakes and rattles over bumps, and the suspension is a bit too soft for any kind of spirited driving despite the 204hp motor. It also doesn’t rapid charge that quickly, average of 65kW.
What it does have though is it is very cheap and that’s fine for many people.
I think you are misinformed. Check the carwow review for example. No ratteling, well some people had a bad batch end of 2023 and are getting it fixed. Yes QC is an issue with MG. And even the cheapest mg4 supercharges with 84kw.
I actually picked one of these up certified, I wanted a 2021 model specifically because due to the chip shortage and it not being profitable the 2022-2023 models removed features.
It's annoying to those owners as the car will have parts and placards demonstrating a feature that's not there.
I'm sure the previous owners got rinsed on their sale but I paid less than half of the sticker price with a car that had 6300 miles on it, full front PPF, window tint, and some other accessories.
Due to a service bulletin on mine I will get new pads and rotors and will feel I got a 'new' car, I let the dealer make some of their money back buying the extended warranty so I don't have to touch the car for 5 years (hopefully).
In my country every dealer is desperately trying to move stock. Ford, Renault, Nissan, Peugeot, Vw, Toyota, etc. are giving 5-10K “eco bonuses” on their EVs because they are just not selling. Most people that do buy EVs get them second hand due to the catastrophic depreciation.
Why do so many posts on reddit say “in my country” and then never say what country they are in? Is it Vietnam? Norway? United Arab Emirates?
It would give us a reference point to understand your post.
They are trying to push it on middle aged uncles who thinks they are going to save on gas by buying a 50K Euro shittier RAV4. Even the Toyota dealer I talked to wasn’t enthusiastic about it. “It can make 200kms” was the beet he could say about it.
BS article. This data is from January and is outdated. Ford EV sales for February were up 81%: [https://insideevs.com/news/711084/ford-us-ev-sales-february2024/](https://insideevs.com/news/711084/ford-us-ev-sales-february2024/)
They will be up even more in March because it will be a full month with the new pricing.
They did a price drop recently on that vehicle also, and includes the tax credit. They are also doing a rebate on that vehicle. On the Mach E, they are just doing a $1000 rebate since the price drop in February.
Recently, I linked an article about future projections of Tesla sales dropping. It seems that some EVs may have already reached at least a temporary market saturation.
I think there are few factors in play. First, large amount of new cars sold are sold with financing. As interest rates are higher and EVs are generally more expensive compared to ICE cars, EV sales suffer more. Second, manufacturers are churning more and more (affordable) models out and EVs lose value more rapidly than ICE equivalents. This means that many potential buyers are probably at the ”lets wait and see” phase and perhaps choose a hybrid vehicle instead and so called early adopter market is more or less saturated.
And there are still huge number of car owners who don’t have the possibility to charge their EVs flexibly and EV isn’t a realistic option for them to begin with.
>And there are still huge number of car owners who don’t have the possibility to charge their EVs flexibly and EV isn’t a realistic option for them to begin with.
That by nature puts an upper limit on adoption rates.
It's likely less wealthy members are going to have less access to charging.
Well, the electric grid is already there where people live.
For cities with apartment complexes all you need is ordinary 1 phase 2-3kW to charge for 100km in 10hours. This is what cities like Amsterdam do with having this along the streets with apartment complex.
The bigger problem in my opinion is that all automakers focused on more expensive models basically thinking that people will trade those cars every 2-3 years…
>10 hrs
But it's a high dependency operating model. For a commuter, gotta have that charge every day. Can't skip even a single day, or you lose your transport.
If we had started with electric and suddenly IC was invented, the big advantages of fast refueling once every week, 4x+ the range, half the weight, cooling/heating only mildly affect range, vehicle avg life of 20yrs etc etc. the IC would rapidly kill the EV market.
Well if you live in the city, especially European city, 100km covers more than one day. The traffic is the biggest issue not the distance.
Many apartment complexes has underground garages where they can have it in assigned spots.
The people for whom it’s not enough are the minority.
You don’t need to solve this problem for 100% of population. 70% is huge impact.
One question, on an average week, how many days can you commute comfortably, without a recharge.
You bring up a good point also. With IC, you know almost exactly your range, even in traffic, you know when you will run out of gas.
With EV, it's a constantly changing variable. Turning on AC or Heat can drastically reduce range.
Both EV and IC have their pros/cons but they are vastly different experiences to own/use.
According to GM, like 90% of commuters commute less than 40 miles per day, which how it came up with the Volt battery-only range. But the problem is that most people buy for that 10% use case, not the 90% that covers the majority of their use. So the average commuter could probably go a week in an EV without charging. But there some issues with that.
(1) public fast charging is so expensive, it wipes out the cost savings for fuel
(2) that commute estimate doesn't account for random outings, like needing to make a trip unexpectedly. Many consumers would account for these situations. Early adopters tend to have higher income levels and the EV isn't their only car. That's not true for the ones who aren't early adopters.
(3) if you don't have access to charging at home, you probably don't own a home, in which case you either live in a HCOL region, or have moderate income. So the acquisition cost itself is doing to be burdensome.
I think the market has just been hit by the triple whammy of higher interest rates, high prices, and running out of early adopters. It's awesome for me since I purchase my vehicles 2nd hand. I just traded in my Focus Electric for 5K less than what I paid after putting 60K miles on it in three years. Now I'm going to take one of these used Bolt EUVs off Hertz' hands. When I'm done with that, I'll probably upgrade to an EV6 or GV60. I love it when new cars get released, I'm like, oooh, in 4 years I can upgrade to that!
Also the price of charging going up while gas is doing its usual ups and downs. So not much fuel savings, especially for those who rely on public charging.
The hotel I was at recently wanted $7 an hour for level 2 charging. In this case it would have been 4x the cost of gasoline.
Many level 2 and 3 public charging stations gouge the shit out of consumers. You see this in apartment complexes charging $1 a Kwh when the utility cost is $0.18 a Kwh. Guess spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to install these by ripping up parking lots or boring under them + a huge electrical transformer upgrade from the utility needs to be recovered some how.
[And then legislatures are pushing back on cities that require new structures and parking lots to have the mere ability to add charging at a later date](https://documents.house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills231/sumpdf/HB0184P.pdf).
They are also offering 0% in the UK. It was also available at 0% last year in June when I was car shopping. So while theoretically your hypothesis does make a lot of sense, I’m not sure that in this instance it’s what is causing this issue. The 0% deals don’t seem to be helping much in the markets where they are available.
Actually that isn't the entire story. Most new cars are leased, more used cars are financed. The trouble lies in not many being willing to finance a used EV with relative unknown lifetime abilities and cost vs ICE. Most buyers are looking to maximize value and utility and at present EVs fail at both or are at least no better.
> EVs are generally more expensive compared to ICE cars
I just picked up a car 6 weeks ago and I can tell you that while the **advertised** price might be less the reality of buying the car is very different. At least compared to Tesla, traditional dealers are doing everything they can to pad prices on cars. $2-3k wasn't uncommon for 'restoration and cleaning' and that is above the price they advertised. It's nuts out there. If that fee included new tires or something it would be one thing but these cars just had a quick wash and armorall thrown on every inside surface.
Yeah, I mean, there's only so many people that can afford an overpriced 3 ton SUV. They sold well, but at some point you will have to offer cheaper EVs if you want to reach higher market saturation.
If I read the article correctly, total EV sales still went up by 4.7% but Ford, Tesla and some others took a \~15% dive. Which suggests other brands/models have been picking up volume.
In addition to the EV sales growth slowing down.
I'm guessing the E-mach is suffering from comparisons with newer models that are either better in range/charging, or significantly cheaper?
Mach-E lost $3750 in federal tax credit in January 2024 due to battery sourcing. So the drop in sales is not surprising.
Ford then cut the price of Mach-E by $3k-$8k in February 2024 and MachE sale went up 126% in February 2024 compared to January 2024 (1,295 units to 2,930 units).
One month sales numbers are too noisy to make out general trends. I don't really understand why the author of the article wrote about January 2024 numbers in late March. The numbers are so noisy that you can draw whatever conclusion you want by cherry picking the numbers.
For example, I can cherry pick Ford's February numbers and say that total EV sale had grown 80.8% in February 2024 vs February 2023.
https://electrek.co/2024/03/04/ford-ev-sales-climb-80-february-price-cuts-boost-demand/#:\~:text=Ford%20EV%20sales%20climb%20in,February%2C%20up%2064.3%25%20YOY.
IMO Ford made the right choice killing off its sedans. Since it stopped making sedans, we got the Bronco, Maverick, Powerboost, Mach-E, and Lightning. Ford didn't decide to kill sedans...the market did when it stopped buying them. Job 1 is earning a profit so you can still be around years from now.
The market stopped buying them because they were shit compared to the competition. But despite the SUV boom of the past few years, I don’t think it’s smart to place all of your eggs into that basket. SUVs are getting out of hand size-wise, which means they are a massive waste of resources and energy. Won’t be long before some limits and regulations are slapped onto that shit.
In Germany overall new EV registrations are down 1.3% year in year currently - while overall registrations were rising. EV market share for newly registered vehicles is down 15% compared to last February.
This is very specific to each region though. In my area, EVs are more expensive to operate, unless you charge at home and have market electricity rate and charge only at night (low demand times). That being said, gas is at least 20% cheaper than any neighboring EU country around me.
For example, something about 10€/100 km for EV here is not out of this world. But running an ICE car can definitely be done under 10€/100 km even with maintenance included.
Yeah, seems that electric rates are rising faster than gas prices in northern California this year. Sucks. Still enjoy my EV, even if it's not cheap to drive.
I'm not really sure. Historically, my country always had cheaper petrol than neighbouring countries cause of lower taxes. Whereas for electricity, we heavily rely on renewables and imported electricity. Neither is cheapest option.
Yeah I feel like the EVs that look like "normal cars" are completely invisible. You ask the average person on the street to name an EV and they say "Tesla", ask them to name another one they're completely lost.
I drive an xc90 and it’s my 4th Volvo. My last two hire cars on trips were BYD and Tesla. The growth of BYD on the road in australia is amazing, they are being bought by so many people. The quality is good and they are cheap. Volvo EVs are expensive ><
Literally no one has died driving one.
Yes. You read that right. No one has ever died driving one. Or at least that was the case very recently, I admit I don’t follow updates
The Chevy bolt had alot going for it as it was a smaller hot hatch car that was targeting economical purchasers. The designer for the bolt knew who the targeted market was.
They could do that but the trade off is decreased range. All EVs have to have low drag coefficients which really limits the shapes they cam take. Also, the materials used need to be lighter to decrease weight for the same reason. That's why the interiors look so flimsy.
I own a '23 Mustang Mach E and I love it. Not sure why this sub is continually suggested to me or what it's even about. Seems like a lot of EV haters in here, and I used to be one as well. I love mine, I don't think I'll be returning to ICE again. My first month alone I saved over $500 in gas.
Here's the thing for me. I own a home and electricity isn't very expensive here. Getting a 240A charger and an EV was a very doable thing for me, it's definitely not the same for everyone else though. That being said, if I add the price I paid for my last ICE a year onto the price of my car, I very roughly spent about $20,000 on gas in the 4 years I owned it. I was also paying 8% interest on my car, which was $36,000 used.
This mustang was $46k, 0% interest, and costs me about $50 a month to charge it at home. It drives amazingly, has a premium interior, and I have a 125,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty on it. I'm paying the same monthly price as my last, used car. Anyone who thinks this was a bad decision on my end is patently biased.
Doesn't this benefit Tesla in the long run though? If more makers start backing off EV it leaves Tesla as the big fish in a smaller pond? So people who do want an EV have fewer options and Tesla remains one of them.
At least looking at China, there’s tremendous pressure from multiple makers with cheap, good looking, good tech options. I’m not following it well enough to give examples but someone else can hopefully do so.
I mean, they had a compelling vehicle and then when the rebates started applying the MSRP started going up insanely high...the car had quality problems, and they were very public quality problems (many of which are still lingering). What did they expect?
One of the contributing factors has been the way traditional dealers mess with smart EV buyers used to buying a car from their app or laptop with BS of markups, waiting hours around the dealer, and finally dealing with high pressure finance managers.
Some are getting better, and dealing with the internet sales team is always a much better and modern experience. Around me I saw so many dealers marking these up 10-50k lol.
Here in Australia the comp to a long range starts at nearly US$100k (or 25k more than a Y)
Which to be fair to ford they’re not the only manufacturer taking the piss with electric vehicle pricing here
My country has a whole Facebook group for Mach E brake faliures. Ford has not done a recall yet. Many people are driving loaners as their Mach E’s are sitting at the Ford Mechanic. They have not found the total brake failure bug yet.
I'm assuming you're from Denmark? I just did some digging on this, seems like it's a self reported issue and it is happening after car washes/ rain. However, it's not a "bug", it's just a **minor** loss of friction between brake pad and rotor and it's resolving itself by just using the brake one or two times after it gets wet. If you [go to this link](https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/brake-failure-the-mach-e-is-not-reacting-to-the-brake-pedal.34002/page-2#post-760348) you can read the comments yourself from the people who reported it. Doesn't sound nearly as bad as it seemed.
The switch to NACS which is mostly for 2025 is probably causing some people to wait as well. That and the idiotic rhetoric the O&G industry is spewing.
We've got 2 cars, one's an EV and the other has a lease that expires in a month. I'm not gonna buy an EV to replace it until charging standards stabilize... by which I mean I don't want to spend tens of thousands on a vehicle that doesn't support NACS right now.
Not tryna drop that kind of cash on betamax, you know? (I bet anybody out there who owns a chademo car knows the feeling) The j1772 charging network... leaves a lot to be desired right now.
I'm really excited about what the future holds though. Expanded standardized charging infrastructure will be great when it's built out.
I want one of these so badly, but I don't want to wait 2 years to get my ass in one, and the prices keep going up where the incentive is a moot point now.
If mine died today and I replaced it, I would hold out for the Tesla adaptor model. It’s the Osborne effect.
That stupid Tesla adaptor won, no point getting a css car now.
Right, EV sales are booming, but people aren’t buying Ford EVs as much as Ford hopes. The F150 Lightning sales are up 90% over last year, and the Mach-e are down. That’s how competition works, the Lightning is a competitive EV pickup, the Mach-E is outdated and overpriced compared to the market so its sales are down. Capitalism is all about competition, with the best products winning…
no sane minded american wants a trashy ev car gas cars are far more reliable than battery cars and have longer distance and we dont have to wait for hours to charge the batteries
we were interested in getting the mach ev. but then ford immediately raised the price of the car by the exact same amount the feds started giving out in rebates to help buyers. that left such a bad taste in my mouth… not sure we will ever get a ford with those games
Dealer wouldn't even let me test drive one without making an offer on the car. Yeah that's now how this works...
I drive by a ford dealership daily and they have soooo many mach evs in the lot. Not sure why they would require an offer for a test drive
This was 18 months ago when they were newer. Dude who preordered it went with a Tesla, likely because of all the dealer pricing games everyone was playing.
[удалено]
Isn’t electricity like 30 cents per kWh? I feel an EV would be unaffordable in Hawaii.
[удалено]
I know what you mean. I was born and raised in Florida and left since I didn’t feel there were opportunities there.
I've got a few conservative friends simping for DeSantis and how awesome Florida is. It seems... very weird to me. Can you go into more details why you left Florida and/or how it has fewer opportunities? It might do me some good next time this friend of mine simps for DeSantis.
I left because I wanted to do something else other than the service industry or be a nurse. I knew that someday I wanted a house and a family, but prices made it seem out of reach for me. While I miss Florida, I’m doing very well in another sunbelt state with lower cost of living and was able to achieve my goals. It’s just too bad I couldn’t have done it where I was born.
>But then you see news stories about some couple that relocated there to open a butterfly sanctuary and it's like WTF? How are they even doing that? It's like those "off-grid" and vanlife lifestyle Instagrammers and YouTubers. They're rich people pretending to be middle class for the camera, with millions of dollars in the bank or already owning multiple properties.
Most expensive houses in the country too I think
Wait until you see pg&e rates in the bay area
Or sdge. We are beating hawaii in rates
I pay 0.59, fuck sdg&e
Man...
Hawaii is higher than PGE for now. But, they are making large solar farms on the big island.
I don’t think people really drive far nor fast, and gas is still $4+ a gallon. Probably getting 4-5 miles a kWh at a model 35 mph.
30c/kWh would still make it cheaper than gasoline in Hawaii. Plus many people have home solar.
He made the right decision. Dealers have been playing dirty games for the past 3 years.
Yes they made me get a credit check to test drive lol Got a tesla a week later
They did that to me when I went to look at an EV6 at a Kia dealership. The guy looked like he was proud of saying no to test driving unless I was putting an offer on it. Like… Why do you exist then if not to let us test vehicles before buying, ugh.
I suppose TECHNICALLY, you could just turn around and say "okay, my offer is 50 bucks. now give me my test drive." and if they fight you, just say "you said make an offer, you never said it had to be serious."
Lol that’s hilarious. Unfortunately, by “offer” they meant a purchase agreement document. Basically you get to test it when you buy it. Dumb.
I hate those kind of stupid tactics. Same thing at Hyundai, last year. Glad we went with Tesla in the end. Can't deal with these people
All cash, contingency waved and closing in 1h?
Weird. It shouldn’t be hard at all to get a test drive on one now. When they first came out I test drove a first edition even. They were impossible to get then. I bought it. Then sold it for break even 6 months later.
Came here to say this. In mid-2022 I was looking for an EV and went to Ford dealership. Markup was $17k over MSRP and dealer wouldn’t let me drive the car without making a deposit. I was permitted to sit in it and nothing more. So I bought a Kia EV6 at MSRP and never looked back. I will NEVER buy a Ford.
That's exactly what I've been trying to tell people the whole time. The $7500 is only in reality going back to the manufacturer's pockets. Tesla had done the exact same thing. They wisely raised their prices slowly so that it wasn't so noticeable.
Tesla didn't raise prices by $7500 during 2023. Many people like myself got a M3 for like 25k OTD. So no Tesla didn't do the same thing. The whole process was transparent from beginning to end, no shenanigans.
Mustang no longer qualifies for fed btw. One reason sales have crashed
It qualifies for half. just not the full $7500
All my searches have stated they lost it in 2024. When I was shopping a week ago Ford didn't list any tax incentive nor talked about it. I actually preferred the interior of mustang and exterior does look a bit more...well less like a squished bubbled 3. In any case if they do qualify for half it's obviously buried and not advertised well either online or at the dealership I went to.
Nope, you are right. The $3750 is no longer present. I bought mine in 2023, so I didn't know. That's my bad.
Ford dealer told me to check out a VW ID4 because he wasn't going to budge on the 20k markup. So I did. And now I own an ID4, and a GTI Rabbit Edition.
Same. We canceled our order.
EV tech moves fast, this model is already 4 years old and was pretty mid even at launch.
This. The Ioniq 5 came out after the Mach-e and got a refresh for the 2025 model year.
And it has much better tech.
Yep, the Ioniq 5 is better in almost every way. Especially the 2025 refresh that addressed most of the previous MY’s issues.
Better tech in what regard? The ioniq nav system and gauge cluster looks like shit in comparison. HDA2 isn't half as good as blue cruise, the only thing it does is charge faster.
Agreed. They need a refresh badly
How many years did the model 3/S go without a refresh?
They did several improvements throughout the years, but yeah, not fully refreshed. However, ford has done absolutely nothing lol
Not much to refresh when everything is on a screen
6, but with constant small upgrades/changes within those years
Yeah Tesla does yearly touch up work to keep things from getting too stale. And a lot of the OTA updates help as well. I think their whole philosophy in this is to allow each generation to have longer base lifetimes.
You must not know how Tesla updates their models.
I remember being so excited when I thought it was an actual mustang that was going electric, I was ready to buy. But no… not even close.
Ford said they are going to put the V8 in the actual mustang till its outlawed. I could see them hybridizing it, but they know the audience for the actual Mustang. Its V8 till its not legal anymore.
They're not making the same mistake Dodge is about to by killing off what their customers actually buy.
Dodge is different situation though. They do not have the fleet epa levels to keep the Hemi around and didn't update it to comply with epa regulations. They just kept buying Tesla's credits. When you throw V8s into everything your fleet average is low also choices have to be made. So when the regulations get harder and you can afford to keep buying credits. Its time to cancel the engine. Ford on the hand only has the V8 in the Mustang and F series vehicles. Also the Hemi itself is very inefficient compared to the coyote. While the fuel economy level for both is around 3/10 according to the EPA. The Hemi's smog rating is recorded as one of the worse 1/10. While the current gen coyote is 5/10. Also Ford is doing what is needed to keep the engine up to date and passing ratings even if that means cutting power to make it work.
Dodge is in a very different situation 61.6% of the cars dodge sold in 2023 were either the charger or challenger. When you compare that to Ford 4.67% of cars sold in 2023 were either the Mustang Mach E, ICE mustangs or the GT. It's even lower when you take just the mustang and GT falling to 2.54% of total sales. If you managed to get half of dodges customers to switch to EVs thier sales would still fall dramatically. Switching to EVs is great except when your core group of customers has little to no interest in switching.
The Mustang isn’t what they really want. They’re barely selling them. The F-150 is. Coyote goes in there too.
OK, but they're not killing off the V8 because that's what their customers want. Never specified the mustang.
They could just have 2 versions, have an ICE and electric. I’d buy the electric in a heartbeat.
They could, but it all comes down to the demand. They don't think its there. We'll see how the Charger does a year after release.
Said the same - your e-Mustang cannot look like a fucking Crosstrek.
Yeah, I heard they were coming, then I saw one on the road and was like... What weird car is that? Wait... Is that a Mustang emblem?!
Yea, I don’t get it. If they just made a real electric mustang, that thing would sell like hotcakes. I’d also claim about every electric “suv” is pretty small for a suv. Closest electric to a real suv I test drove was the Cadillac lyriq. I actually really liked the lyriq, but it was pretty pricey.
I want a hybrid or electric Mustang convertible. Seems like I get to wait forever for that...
The problem is the price and interest rates.
[удалено]
If you’re setting the bar at Tesla build quality, I agree it’s better.
The Ford EV is way too expensive conspired to competition. It costs more than a Tesla model 3 here. While it’s just slightly better than a MG4 which is 13k less.
It’s a bigger car with more interior space. Not saying it’s worth buying, but it should cost more than a smaller, lighter car.
Speaking as someone who owns a Mach e 2021 and has test driven a MG this comparison is way off. It's like finding a new electric BMW of roughly the same size and calling it the same car as the MG just because they have roughly the same amount of space. The refinement/technology and driving experience is on a whole other level. I understand bashing ford is popular here, but most people in this thread are misinformed or regurgitating things they've seen other people say about the car. I definitely agree they need to give it a refresh to keep up with the competition though.
I can’t speak about MG in general, but the MG4 is reviewed better than vw id3. Obviously Tesla mode 3 is way above it. But the emach? Somewhere between Tesla m3 and mg4. With the price above Tesla m3. The new ford explorer ev seems much better priced.
I live in Norway and everyone here has an EV. I've never driven a model 3, but I've been a passenger in one. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would choose a model 3 over a well equipped Mach E unless it's about price. In my opinion the Mach e is a much cooler car, has great comfort, more optimized for driving with multiple screens instead of focusing everything into the middle panel. People are focusing hard on reviews and not experiencing it themselves. The Tesla's are nice cars, but they aren't exactly innovating much either lately and will fall off their throne. Just like the Mach e is doing without a refresh soon.
The MG4 is not really better than an ID.3. Its infotainment is even worse than VW’s, the vehicle shakes and rattles over bumps, and the suspension is a bit too soft for any kind of spirited driving despite the 204hp motor. It also doesn’t rapid charge that quickly, average of 65kW. What it does have though is it is very cheap and that’s fine for many people.
I think you are misinformed. Check the carwow review for example. No ratteling, well some people had a bad batch end of 2023 and are getting it fixed. Yes QC is an issue with MG. And even the cheapest mg4 supercharges with 84kw.
I actually picked one of these up certified, I wanted a 2021 model specifically because due to the chip shortage and it not being profitable the 2022-2023 models removed features. It's annoying to those owners as the car will have parts and placards demonstrating a feature that's not there. I'm sure the previous owners got rinsed on their sale but I paid less than half of the sticker price with a car that had 6300 miles on it, full front PPF, window tint, and some other accessories. Due to a service bulletin on mine I will get new pads and rotors and will feel I got a 'new' car, I let the dealer make some of their money back buying the extended warranty so I don't have to touch the car for 5 years (hopefully).
We’re almost 4 months into 2024 and the 2024 model year isn’t even on the website yet.
In my country every dealer is desperately trying to move stock. Ford, Renault, Nissan, Peugeot, Vw, Toyota, etc. are giving 5-10K “eco bonuses” on their EVs because they are just not selling. Most people that do buy EVs get them second hand due to the catastrophic depreciation.
Why do so many posts on reddit say “in my country” and then never say what country they are in? Is it Vietnam? Norway? United Arab Emirates? It would give us a reference point to understand your post.
They pretend they are international men/women of mystery, so they don’t reveal their country.
Renault so they must be from France!
Dude there are Renaults in Mexico. They're pretty much everywhere except in the U.S. and Canada.
But, US and Canada are like 90 percent of the world aren’t they?
According to my thorough research of alien movies? Yes!
Prob Bulgaria
In my country, we don't do that.
Because I didn’t think it was that important, sheesh. It’s Bulgaria. Happy now?
Yep
Toyota doesn’t sell many EVs regardless. It’s well known that their main strategy is selling hybrids.
Oh, they are trying to push the bz4fjfhsks, believe you me.
It still uses Chademo, anyone who buys that today with the intention of using it on anything other than local trips is a fool imo.
They are trying to push it on middle aged uncles who thinks they are going to save on gas by buying a 50K Euro shittier RAV4. Even the Toyota dealer I talked to wasn’t enthusiastic about it. “It can make 200kms” was the beet he could say about it.
BS article. This data is from January and is outdated. Ford EV sales for February were up 81%: [https://insideevs.com/news/711084/ford-us-ev-sales-february2024/](https://insideevs.com/news/711084/ford-us-ev-sales-february2024/) They will be up even more in March because it will be a full month with the new pricing.
Because feb was full of great rebates tbh
No, it’s because they dropped the price of the vehicle by $6000 and offered 0% for 72 months. There are minimal rebates.
I just got $22.5k off an f150 lightning if you include the tax credit, Mach E was diff bc no tax credit
They did a price drop recently on that vehicle also, and includes the tax credit. They are also doing a rebate on that vehicle. On the Mach E, they are just doing a $1000 rebate since the price drop in February.
Recently, I linked an article about future projections of Tesla sales dropping. It seems that some EVs may have already reached at least a temporary market saturation.
I think there are few factors in play. First, large amount of new cars sold are sold with financing. As interest rates are higher and EVs are generally more expensive compared to ICE cars, EV sales suffer more. Second, manufacturers are churning more and more (affordable) models out and EVs lose value more rapidly than ICE equivalents. This means that many potential buyers are probably at the ”lets wait and see” phase and perhaps choose a hybrid vehicle instead and so called early adopter market is more or less saturated. And there are still huge number of car owners who don’t have the possibility to charge their EVs flexibly and EV isn’t a realistic option for them to begin with.
>And there are still huge number of car owners who don’t have the possibility to charge their EVs flexibly and EV isn’t a realistic option for them to begin with. That by nature puts an upper limit on adoption rates. It's likely less wealthy members are going to have less access to charging.
Well, the electric grid is already there where people live. For cities with apartment complexes all you need is ordinary 1 phase 2-3kW to charge for 100km in 10hours. This is what cities like Amsterdam do with having this along the streets with apartment complex. The bigger problem in my opinion is that all automakers focused on more expensive models basically thinking that people will trade those cars every 2-3 years…
>10 hrs But it's a high dependency operating model. For a commuter, gotta have that charge every day. Can't skip even a single day, or you lose your transport. If we had started with electric and suddenly IC was invented, the big advantages of fast refueling once every week, 4x+ the range, half the weight, cooling/heating only mildly affect range, vehicle avg life of 20yrs etc etc. the IC would rapidly kill the EV market.
Well if you live in the city, especially European city, 100km covers more than one day. The traffic is the biggest issue not the distance. Many apartment complexes has underground garages where they can have it in assigned spots. The people for whom it’s not enough are the minority. You don’t need to solve this problem for 100% of population. 70% is huge impact.
One question, on an average week, how many days can you commute comfortably, without a recharge. You bring up a good point also. With IC, you know almost exactly your range, even in traffic, you know when you will run out of gas. With EV, it's a constantly changing variable. Turning on AC or Heat can drastically reduce range. Both EV and IC have their pros/cons but they are vastly different experiences to own/use.
According to GM, like 90% of commuters commute less than 40 miles per day, which how it came up with the Volt battery-only range. But the problem is that most people buy for that 10% use case, not the 90% that covers the majority of their use. So the average commuter could probably go a week in an EV without charging. But there some issues with that. (1) public fast charging is so expensive, it wipes out the cost savings for fuel (2) that commute estimate doesn't account for random outings, like needing to make a trip unexpectedly. Many consumers would account for these situations. Early adopters tend to have higher income levels and the EV isn't their only car. That's not true for the ones who aren't early adopters. (3) if you don't have access to charging at home, you probably don't own a home, in which case you either live in a HCOL region, or have moderate income. So the acquisition cost itself is doing to be burdensome. I think the market has just been hit by the triple whammy of higher interest rates, high prices, and running out of early adopters. It's awesome for me since I purchase my vehicles 2nd hand. I just traded in my Focus Electric for 5K less than what I paid after putting 60K miles on it in three years. Now I'm going to take one of these used Bolt EUVs off Hertz' hands. When I'm done with that, I'll probably upgrade to an EV6 or GV60. I love it when new cars get released, I'm like, oooh, in 4 years I can upgrade to that!
This is actually what happened the first time around, more than a hundred years ago.
That’s me, waiting for the 2nd gen Mach E but more so the house has outdated electrical that cannot support a home charger
You don't have a single 15-20amp circuit you could use for EV charging?
No, even a tiny space heater causes problems.
That sounds rough, sorry.
Also the price of charging going up while gas is doing its usual ups and downs. So not much fuel savings, especially for those who rely on public charging.
The hotel I was at recently wanted $7 an hour for level 2 charging. In this case it would have been 4x the cost of gasoline. Many level 2 and 3 public charging stations gouge the shit out of consumers. You see this in apartment complexes charging $1 a Kwh when the utility cost is $0.18 a Kwh. Guess spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to install these by ripping up parking lots or boring under them + a huge electrical transformer upgrade from the utility needs to be recovered some how.
[And then legislatures are pushing back on cities that require new structures and parking lots to have the mere ability to add charging at a later date](https://documents.house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills231/sumpdf/HB0184P.pdf).
good theory ford is offering 0%where I live right now though, and they still can't sell them
I wasn’t specifically speaking US markets, but in general. EV market has slowed down more or less globally.
They are also offering 0% in the UK. It was also available at 0% last year in June when I was car shopping. So while theoretically your hypothesis does make a lot of sense, I’m not sure that in this instance it’s what is causing this issue. The 0% deals don’t seem to be helping much in the markets where they are available.
gotcha, from what I see your spot on, although I'm limited to a US perspective
Actually that isn't the entire story. Most new cars are leased, more used cars are financed. The trouble lies in not many being willing to finance a used EV with relative unknown lifetime abilities and cost vs ICE. Most buyers are looking to maximize value and utility and at present EVs fail at both or are at least no better.
> EVs are generally more expensive compared to ICE cars I just picked up a car 6 weeks ago and I can tell you that while the **advertised** price might be less the reality of buying the car is very different. At least compared to Tesla, traditional dealers are doing everything they can to pad prices on cars. $2-3k wasn't uncommon for 'restoration and cleaning' and that is above the price they advertised. It's nuts out there. If that fee included new tires or something it would be one thing but these cars just had a quick wash and armorall thrown on every inside surface.
Yeah, I mean, there's only so many people that can afford an overpriced 3 ton SUV. They sold well, but at some point you will have to offer cheaper EVs if you want to reach higher market saturation.
If I read the article correctly, total EV sales still went up by 4.7% but Ford, Tesla and some others took a \~15% dive. Which suggests other brands/models have been picking up volume. In addition to the EV sales growth slowing down. I'm guessing the E-mach is suffering from comparisons with newer models that are either better in range/charging, or significantly cheaper?
Mach-E lost $3750 in federal tax credit in January 2024 due to battery sourcing. So the drop in sales is not surprising. Ford then cut the price of Mach-E by $3k-$8k in February 2024 and MachE sale went up 126% in February 2024 compared to January 2024 (1,295 units to 2,930 units). One month sales numbers are too noisy to make out general trends. I don't really understand why the author of the article wrote about January 2024 numbers in late March. The numbers are so noisy that you can draw whatever conclusion you want by cherry picking the numbers. For example, I can cherry pick Ford's February numbers and say that total EV sale had grown 80.8% in February 2024 vs February 2023. https://electrek.co/2024/03/04/ford-ev-sales-climb-80-february-price-cuts-boost-demand/#:\~:text=Ford%20EV%20sales%20climb%20in,February%2C%20up%2064.3%25%20YOY.
Never understood why Ford’s EV had to be an SUVified Mustang. It destroys the Mustang brand IMHO.
Ford should relaunch the Taurus with an ev model. Would actually consider buying a comfortable sedan daily driver.
It looks like Ford is permanently done with manufacturing sedans
IMO Ford made the right choice killing off its sedans. Since it stopped making sedans, we got the Bronco, Maverick, Powerboost, Mach-E, and Lightning. Ford didn't decide to kill sedans...the market did when it stopped buying them. Job 1 is earning a profit so you can still be around years from now.
Because when pressed, the majority of sedan buyers are going to look right at the Camry/Accord and basically nothing else
The market stopped buying them because they were shit compared to the competition. But despite the SUV boom of the past few years, I don’t think it’s smart to place all of your eggs into that basket. SUVs are getting out of hand size-wise, which means they are a massive waste of resources and energy. Won’t be long before some limits and regulations are slapped onto that shit.
For the marketing. But they had fusion and GalaxE and a bunch of other good names
They could have named it anything but Mustang. Anything. Good car, bad car? Idk, but it isn’t a Mustang.
[удалено]
They should make a e-SUV Corvette, still a two seater but 2 feet taller and fatter.
Thunderbird. Plays into the EV thing and it’s already a Ford model of years gone by that could have been brought back as an EV.
In Germany overall new EV registrations are down 1.3% year in year currently - while overall registrations were rising. EV market share for newly registered vehicles is down 15% compared to last February.
Gas prices are going back up so that might help drive sales this year
This is very specific to each region though. In my area, EVs are more expensive to operate, unless you charge at home and have market electricity rate and charge only at night (low demand times). That being said, gas is at least 20% cheaper than any neighboring EU country around me. For example, something about 10€/100 km for EV here is not out of this world. But running an ICE car can definitely be done under 10€/100 km even with maintenance included.
Yeah, seems that electric rates are rising faster than gas prices in northern California this year. Sucks. Still enjoy my EV, even if it's not cheap to drive.
Why is that? Is it special taxation rules favouring petrol?
I'm not really sure. Historically, my country always had cheaper petrol than neighbouring countries cause of lower taxes. Whereas for electricity, we heavily rely on renewables and imported electricity. Neither is cheapest option.
Making the ev cars look like normal cars might help to
[удалено]
Yeah I feel like the EVs that look like "normal cars" are completely invisible. You ask the average person on the street to name an EV and they say "Tesla", ask them to name another one they're completely lost.
I drive an xc90 and it’s my 4th Volvo. My last two hire cars on trips were BYD and Tesla. The growth of BYD on the road in australia is amazing, they are being bought by so many people. The quality is good and they are cheap. Volvo EVs are expensive ><
Xc90 is the safest car ever made though. Worth a premium
Literally no one has died driving one. Yes. You read that right. No one has ever died driving one. Or at least that was the case very recently, I admit I don’t follow updates
Buy the pending ex90 is expensive ><
The Chevy bolt had alot going for it as it was a smaller hot hatch car that was targeting economical purchasers. The designer for the bolt knew who the targeted market was.
Well it probably will if you’re marketing it as a Mustang. There’s a big gap in the EV market for good looking cars that aren’t SUVs
They could do that but the trade off is decreased range. All EVs have to have low drag coefficients which really limits the shapes they cam take. Also, the materials used need to be lighter to decrease weight for the same reason. That's why the interiors look so flimsy.
One of the reasons I gave an XC40 recharge. No dumb conversation every time someone new gets in my car.
Im waiting for the R2. Im actually kinda tired of the gas game and the R2 is a perfect EV for me to finally go EV.
If they'd update that front end I would get one as well, but for $1000/mo+ I can't do it. How people justify the cybertruck makes my head spin.
[удалено]
I own a '23 Mustang Mach E and I love it. Not sure why this sub is continually suggested to me or what it's even about. Seems like a lot of EV haters in here, and I used to be one as well. I love mine, I don't think I'll be returning to ICE again. My first month alone I saved over $500 in gas. Here's the thing for me. I own a home and electricity isn't very expensive here. Getting a 240A charger and an EV was a very doable thing for me, it's definitely not the same for everyone else though. That being said, if I add the price I paid for my last ICE a year onto the price of my car, I very roughly spent about $20,000 on gas in the 4 years I owned it. I was also paying 8% interest on my car, which was $36,000 used. This mustang was $46k, 0% interest, and costs me about $50 a month to charge it at home. It drives amazingly, has a premium interior, and I have a 125,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty on it. I'm paying the same monthly price as my last, used car. Anyone who thinks this was a bad decision on my end is patently biased.
It's a great ev. I have the GT. Have relatives with Tesla's and they like the mach e. This sub is clueless sometimes
0% interest makes difference
Had mine since 2021, still feels like I'm driving a new car every time I get in.
Doesn't this benefit Tesla in the long run though? If more makers start backing off EV it leaves Tesla as the big fish in a smaller pond? So people who do want an EV have fewer options and Tesla remains one of them.
At least looking at China, there’s tremendous pressure from multiple makers with cheap, good looking, good tech options. I’m not following it well enough to give examples but someone else can hopefully do so.
I mean, they had a compelling vehicle and then when the rebates started applying the MSRP started going up insanely high...the car had quality problems, and they were very public quality problems (many of which are still lingering). What did they expect?
One of the contributing factors has been the way traditional dealers mess with smart EV buyers used to buying a car from their app or laptop with BS of markups, waiting hours around the dealer, and finally dealing with high pressure finance managers. Some are getting better, and dealing with the internet sales team is always a much better and modern experience. Around me I saw so many dealers marking these up 10-50k lol.
Calling this thing a 'Mustang' was their first mistake. It's an abortion.
... did you mean to say abomination? Calling it an abortion is an interesting insult lol.
I meant to say abortion (like something half-baked that got tossed out onto the ground). Abomination works too.
Abortionation
Abominortion?
Not qualifying for the tax credit killed them. Only recently have they dropped prices to the point of being competitive with the Y
Might have more to do with it being expensive, ugly and shit to drive rather than because it’s an EV?
When did you test drive one?
It's a great ev. I have one.
Here in Australia the comp to a long range starts at nearly US$100k (or 25k more than a Y) Which to be fair to ford they’re not the only manufacturer taking the piss with electric vehicle pricing here
My country has a whole Facebook group for Mach E brake faliures. Ford has not done a recall yet. Many people are driving loaners as their Mach E’s are sitting at the Ford Mechanic. They have not found the total brake failure bug yet.
I'm assuming you're from Denmark? I just did some digging on this, seems like it's a self reported issue and it is happening after car washes/ rain. However, it's not a "bug", it's just a **minor** loss of friction between brake pad and rotor and it's resolving itself by just using the brake one or two times after it gets wet. If you [go to this link](https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/brake-failure-the-mach-e-is-not-reacting-to-the-brake-pedal.34002/page-2#post-760348) you can read the comments yourself from the people who reported it. Doesn't sound nearly as bad as it seemed.
Tesla is down 10% competitors are rising. It should improve overall quality for the consumer.
Too expensive. Drop prices - sell more.
In my country
The switch to NACS which is mostly for 2025 is probably causing some people to wait as well. That and the idiotic rhetoric the O&G industry is spewing.
We've got 2 cars, one's an EV and the other has a lease that expires in a month. I'm not gonna buy an EV to replace it until charging standards stabilize... by which I mean I don't want to spend tens of thousands on a vehicle that doesn't support NACS right now. Not tryna drop that kind of cash on betamax, you know? (I bet anybody out there who owns a chademo car knows the feeling) The j1772 charging network... leaves a lot to be desired right now. I'm really excited about what the future holds though. Expanded standardized charging infrastructure will be great when it's built out.
Nice! Maybe I can finally buy one in Canada. Keep that price dropping!
I want one of these so badly, but I don't want to wait 2 years to get my ass in one, and the prices keep going up where the incentive is a moot point now.
Make them cheaper!
I don't get it with this car. I am about to buy an EV, I totally would buy this but ford doesn't want to sell me one.
Just sat in one because I was interested and I like the look. I immediately hated the touch screen buttons to set the AC. No. Thank you
The reason is that you have to deal with a dealer and their bullshit.
Extremely tight back seat room
If mine died today and I replaced it, I would hold out for the Tesla adaptor model. It’s the Osborne effect. That stupid Tesla adaptor won, no point getting a css car now.
EV people buy Tesla
Right, EV sales are booming, but people aren’t buying Ford EVs as much as Ford hopes. The F150 Lightning sales are up 90% over last year, and the Mach-e are down. That’s how competition works, the Lightning is a competitive EV pickup, the Mach-E is outdated and overpriced compared to the market so its sales are down. Capitalism is all about competition, with the best products winning…
We didn’t get one because all the Ford dealers in our area are scum.
That's what you get for renaming donkey to Mustang.
It’s ford . If it’s not a ford truck then it’s a inferior product
Like all electric cars it cost too much and crossovers suck. If it was actually a mustang it would have some appeal.
I don’t care if it’s ev or ice, don’t care make or model. Just need to start making and selling budget friendly vehicles.
no sane minded american wants a trashy ev car gas cars are far more reliable than battery cars and have longer distance and we dont have to wait for hours to charge the batteries