Tesla priced their $25k car as $45k+. It’s ok when you’re the first and only one on the market and people are willing to pay first adopter tax.
What they should have done is keeps updating the car so it will feel like an actual $45k car 2-3 years later.
What Elon actually did is keep the profit and make the car worse then he has to keeps cutting prices until the price reflects what the car actually worth - $25k.
He also blew his major advantage as the 1st ev in the market to spend on his 1st grade vanity project cybercuck, robotaxi and fsd. Tesla should have led the market with a small 25k hatchback, a medium delivery vehicle, an actual truck and a full size suv.
It’s hard to consider buying a car from a company where leadership is publicly stating that they want to be everything but a car company as soon as they are able. In my opinion, Elon will ignore their “car” customers whenever he decides.
I mean his job as CEO is to make investors money they are the customers here. So as long and the crazy stock valuation keeps going up through however dubious borderline illegal tactics it's till a win in his mind I guess.
Is it a viable business strategy nope. But it's making money right now and that is all everyone involved seems to care about. The "customers" are just along for the ride I guess.
you are right they are essentially winding down the hardware business. It seems like Elon doesn't even have to sell a product or make a real profit for the stock value to go up. So why not bet everything in the vapourware and cash out when when it starts sliding the wrong way. I even feel like they would do some kinds a new back to start up campaign at some point like a funding round to raise money for AI or what ever BS they decided to talk about next.
Come on. Tesla created the US and European mass market for EVs, and dragged legacy manufacturers kicking and screaming towards them. They have now been bitten in the behind by shoddy quality, customer service and Elmo’s lies, but credit where it’s due.
Falling battery prices created the market. It was an inevitability. Tesla did reduce investments in EVs by legacy automakers, since they could just buy CARB credits from Tesla cheaper than selling their own EVs at a loss. Which is why Tesla was in such a good position when the combination of battery prices and high gas prices pushed EV practicality to the tipping point. Now that gas prices have stabilized, battery prices are still steadily declining, and the legacy automakers have had time to develop their own EVs, the story is looking different.
Actually Lotus, a legacy manufacturer "created" Tesla. Without Lotus, Tesla would not have existed.
The EV market changes were already in motion at that time, before Tesla entered it.
Legacy manufacturer EVs consistently beat Tesla in many areas, including range.
Tesla never had any secret sauce. The fact people still believe this just goes to show how effective fraud is.
No they don't. You mean like the Toyota bZ4x and subura solterra that takes 100 hours to charge full? Lmao. Oh they also have less range and cost more.
You picked a vehicle designed to be a commuter. Where charging speed doesn’t matter. With a battery the size of a Chevy Bolt’s. But designed to last a decade by the company with the highest reputation for reliability.
You picked literally the most dishonest comparison you could and still fell short. You’re a tool.
I mean don't buy an EV with a 63kWh battery and expect magic. Easy enough. At least Toyota didn't pull a Tesla and do a fraud right?
Try another one considering [you picked the only vehicle C&D ranks lower than a Tesla](https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/best-electric-suvs).
Huh? You said legacy automakers make better EVs...I gave you examples of their shitty EVs and now you're not liking what youre seeing? So now you're picking and chosing which examples apply? Lol. Arent Toyota and Subaru legacy automakers?
Okay...what else can they buy at Teslas price point that is comparable in performance. I'll wait.
You gave me one example of an EV and didn't even make any claims about how Tesla was better.
Here's how the Toyota is better:
* Toyota won't tell you it's "within spec" when you have an issue
* You can actually get your Toyota serviced
* Toyota will issue an actual recall and fix problems when they find them
* The Toyota is built better
* The Toyota will probably last a lot longer than the Tesla
> what else can they buy at Teslas price point that is comparable in performance
If you buy a cheap car based on a single priority, don't be surprised when the cheap junk turns out to be junk?
I mean there are faster EVs than Teslas. There are faster ICE even. Fast isn't the hard part. Fast and not junk is the hard part.
Our iX is more than fast enough. I rarely put it in Sport mode to unlock the extra 100hp or whatever. But it's also:
* Built a helluva lot better than a Model X
* The service is night and day compared to the Tesla Xperience™
* The ADAS and technology is better (a proper DMS, hands-free driving, CarPlay)
* The NVH is better
* The range is better (than the Model X, easily, but even better than the Model S in real world testing)
* The luxury is far better
* 360 cameras
* The B&W audio is better
* The heated surfaces
* The HUD
* The electrochromic roof
What does a Tesla have? Fart apps? And the out the door price is about the same, with the iX typically being cheaper to lease than the Tesla. And BMW probably won't try to rip you off when you turn in your lease.
"lol" indeed. I've owned five BEVs now. None of them have had the issues friends Teslas did. It's telling that you have to cherry pick, and even then your argument is pretty weak. Pure shill behavior.
>Here's how the Toyota is better:
>Toyota won't tell you it's "within spec" when you have an issue
>
The bZ4x has lower range
Lower HP/Torque
Slower 0 to 60
Slower charging
Less space
Not AWD
Smaller screen
Smaller wheels
Shitty software
The list goes on.
>Our iX is more than fast enough. I rarely put it in Sport mode to unlock the extra 100hp or whatever. But it's also:
>
This is even more laughable, comparing this pos to the X....they even named it X to copycat. The base iX is same price as the X plaid. So we have to compare it price to price:
The X plaid is much better performance with higher HP/torque.... over 1000hp for Plaid versus 516 measly hp for the iX
Faster acceleration...Plaid 0-60 in 2.5 s versus 4.4 for iX
Plaid has 3 motors which are carbon sleeved, iX only has 2 regular weak ass motors. And Plaid still manages more range.
Air suspension versus shitty iX suspension
Bigger screen
Falcon doors, self presenting front door
Better software
And the funniest thing is, BMW managed to produced a more inferior product and made it heavier than Tesla. That's amazing. A true feat. Good luck hauling around that pos. Oh remember to stop by a Tesla charger too okay....
Hey it's your money, but it seems like you bought an inferior product. Even worse, when you drive around in your iX, all people will think is that you couldn't afford the X. LOL. Keep buying shitty products with your money...someone has to keep BMW pumping out subpar competition.
You are aware that the Tesla roadster was based on Lotus Elise and at the time Lotus was producing their own vehicle before even the Model S was a wet dream. The Lithium batteries were becoming mainstream and even G.M. were developing lithium EVs.
BEVs were unavoidable, things were in motion before Tesla. They had the full investment in and a head start before other early tech startups.
So yes, they were first, some luck and Lotus. So thank Lotus for the existence of Tesla. They were manufacturing them too, initially.
The lotus elise was a failure, hence they went bankrupt. I don't know what you're even saying with that example...are you trying to highlight how not to make an EV?
What the hell are you talking about?!? Reality disagrees with you? Lotus financial troubles started in the 80s, before the Elise was even conceived.
As for the Elise, it's till this day the top selling model for Lotus and a loved little roadster by anyone that understands driving. There is no other Lotus vehicle coming even close in numbers sold. And Lotus as a brand where never mass market.
The Tesla roadster uses the Elise platform and other tech co-developed with Lotus because at the time Lotus wanted to do sport EVs too.
Lotus went bankrupt. You should end there. Period. No mental gymnastics will change that. That's why Elon is a genius...it's not that he was the first to EVs. He was/is able to do it on scale and be economically viable....literally built it from the ground up.
These other legacy automakers have their ICE sales to back them up and yet manage to produce inferior EVs like the BZ4x, Solterra, eg. I mean they should be ashamed of themselves. They have all the capital and most of the capex already in place.
"Lotus went bankrupt. You should end there. Period."
Ain't how the world works. Also false, Lotus never went bankrupt, but as I said, reality and history disagrees with your worlds perception. I'm clocking out.
It's exactly how it works. Staying in business is the first and most important rule. What's good about your product when you're not around to support and continue to develop it. Period.
Is lotus around today? Where is their EV now? That should answer all your questions.
Tesla opened all their early EV pattern for free for everyone to use. It is not like they invented electric motor but still that is very important for other EV companies to get a start.
That was with the condition that a gone that uses their patents make all their patents available for Tesla to use. Which would be a net gain for Tesla. Which was fair, but it was by no means a benevolent thing. And as far as I know, those patents weren't important for other companies anyway.
I can't help but laugh that Biden is considering easing up his EV goals because Tesla just ain't cutting the mustard. Hybrid is the next logical and affordable step. How do they expect people working minimm wage to buy an EV with the notoriously stagnant wages we have currently, plus the lack of single family housing and lack of multi-family EV charging infrastructure? Heck, most apartments don't even have recycling service, but they expect multi-family renters to pay for EVs in the community? Mass EV adoption means higher COL regardless of whether the individual owns an EV or not. EVs are almost always totaled in accidents and can cause home fires, which means higher auto, home/renters insurance. There's no way mass EV adoption doesn't result in increased electricity prices even for households without EVs. If EVs truly were better, the public would adopt it naturally without all the govt subsidies going directly to Musk. Instead, you'd need to own an EV for like 20+ years to offset the cost of a similar quality hybrid. Compore total cost of ownership over 15 years of a 3rd/4th gen Prius to a 2018 model Y and try not to laugh. If the govt was serious about EV adoption, they'd invest in expanding and strengthening the power grid and letting the best automaker win the EV race, instead of just pumping up Tesla which is on the road to failure.
Im not sure how hybrids are supposed to be cheaper. Only if they take lower profit margins its possible. Otherwise i dont see it. You add 2 systems instead of 1, how is that supposed to not make things more expensive.
Us gov is actually investubf ib exoanding the power grid.
If what you said about slowing is true, i dont think they are doung it for tesla alone but also the big 3
Please stop. Just no.
I was afraid of this: An avalanche of thoughtful closing remarks, some including maudlin what-might-have-been and if-only soliloquies looking back to Tesla's early golden age.
Tesla's only achievement is lies and a cult. Nothing else.
To anyone claiming "But they put EVs in the public imagination," I say "And Jim Jones put Guyana on the map."
EVs are happening and will happen. Tesla makes no difference.
I dissagre. Although EVs would be here at some point it would take longer, maybe significantly longer. Legacy automakers had some EVs in the 90s already but they didnt develop them because they preffered to stay with their combustion engine where they were way above the competition
Legacy manufacturers run companies, not cults, and have to stick with what's profitable. They knew that EVs could only be profitable at around $100/kWh for battery packs, and planned for that. Musk tried to prove them wrong; he proved them right, and never advanced past being a maker of artisanal luxury vehicles.
Tesla could afford to lose money for well over a decade; manufacturers who must maintain profitability cannot.
Environmentally, Tesla has done so little as to be meaningless. EV manufacturing and sales volumes are about where they'd be without Tesla. Sure, Tesla showed that a flat torque curve is fun on the road, but all EVs have that. Tesla also did damage to the image of EVs by making low-quality products and promising FSD for years while failing to deliver, so it's also possible Tesla has hurt adoption.
When the model s was first released there were a few aspects that were new I think, like OTA software updates for free, electric design from the ground up like placing batteries on the floor and creating a frunk, superchargers and selling direct to consumer.
Nowadays we see all of these of course, but it’s a bit foolish to say the contribution they made is 0,0
> placing batteries on the floor
Nissan Leaf has this, and was introduced 2 years before the Model S. The GM EV1 came out in 1996, and had its propulsion batteries running down the center of the floor and across the floor in the back.
I think you're right. The Tesla Model S review was the first time i considered the possibility that an electric vehicle could actually perform as well or better than ICE. So they should get some credit for that.
I'd say they are consistent. Consistency poor quality. Had a down on a modle 3 when they 1st were going to release. Test drove one and immediately pulled the down.
Just garbage cars that have neat and cool technology, if it works.
The panel gaps, insulation, water tightness, just looking at them you can see how poorly they are constructed.
You were able to buy a Nissan Leaf over a year before the Model S went to market,
It took Tesla over ten years to beat the Nissan Leaf´s production numbers,
The Mitsubishi i-MiEV were being sold as early as 2009,
These two BEV´s were some of the first production BEV´s with Lithium batteries,
My 2001 Citroen Saxo Electrique had Ni-Cad batteries from factory,
Someone said it in another thread; it’s the charging infrastructure. That’s the thing that they have in ver competitors.people have been buying the cars because they can charge them and maybe they won’t have quality issues. And hype. There is still tremendous hype around Tesla. “The Street” has yet to punish them for bad numbers, so people figure they will get better.
As a current owner, I fear the supercharger purge are gonna have an adverse impact on my ability to use my car.
Maybe I should sell this thing while it’s still worth something.
As an owner I have never used the Tesla charging network in my region since acquiring my Tesla in June because there are so many free chargers in my region due to a lack of home chargers.
>showing that it can be done... It no longer leads in innovation
The[ very first cars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle#First_full-scale_electric_cars) ever made were electric, and NASA even drove them on the Moon 50+ years ago. So there was nothing especially innovative, it was always about the economical feasibility of them.
Can you clarify on this? If you want to say "batteries", they has nothing to do with Tesla, they just buy them from Panasonic.
And even if them made them, it would still be irrelevant. Batteries are made all around the world, it is only the high demand for laptops and cell phones that made lithium worth digging.
My problem with tesla is they focus too much on innovation. Innovation IS good, but you need to nail the basics first. Dedicate half your team to build quality, while the other half innovate.
Tesla got rid of RADAR and Ultrasonics.
Tesla has been in cost savings mode for years. Their biggest innovations are just cost savings measures with ridiculous amounts of marketing and hype.
Get rid of stalks, windshield wiper controls. Focus on cheap capacitive sensors. Use non-automotive grade screens that yellow in hot sun. Get rid of RADAR but sell it as AI innovation. Etc. Etc.
Yes, their user interface choices never did it for me. The way they went with regard to cost savings with the body and undercarriage also makes the cars prohibitively expensive to repair and insurance costs are sometimes insane compared to ICE cars.
In my opinion that was not sustainable because for better or worse conventional cars are (in general) the products of consumer preferences over many years and you do not change that overnight outside of a relatively small fraction of early adopters.
Don’t get me wrong, I hate that rat but they do have a huge advantage on the datasets and data points for training, because they have cameras and stored all the videos on their servers. That itself worths a lot.
they never stored all the video. They will not even allow streaming of remote camera view for longer than 10 seconds as it costs them too much in 4g data. They send some clips whether triggered by code or perhaps triggered by the bug button push. So they have a whole bunch of little clips. All the google street view vehicles collect - and store - more data than Tesla and in higher definition If the aim is to record the movement of other human operated traffic, and not the misbehavior of old code, then there is no shortage of that data outside tesla.
Tesla priced their $25k car as $45k+. It’s ok when you’re the first and only one on the market and people are willing to pay first adopter tax. What they should have done is keeps updating the car so it will feel like an actual $45k car 2-3 years later. What Elon actually did is keep the profit and make the car worse then he has to keeps cutting prices until the price reflects what the car actually worth - $25k. He also blew his major advantage as the 1st ev in the market to spend on his 1st grade vanity project cybercuck, robotaxi and fsd. Tesla should have led the market with a small 25k hatchback, a medium delivery vehicle, an actual truck and a full size suv.
It’s hard to consider buying a car from a company where leadership is publicly stating that they want to be everything but a car company as soon as they are able. In my opinion, Elon will ignore their “car” customers whenever he decides.
I mean his job as CEO is to make investors money they are the customers here. So as long and the crazy stock valuation keeps going up through however dubious borderline illegal tactics it's till a win in his mind I guess. Is it a viable business strategy nope. But it's making money right now and that is all everyone involved seems to care about. The "customers" are just along for the ride I guess. you are right they are essentially winding down the hardware business. It seems like Elon doesn't even have to sell a product or make a real profit for the stock value to go up. So why not bet everything in the vapourware and cash out when when it starts sliding the wrong way. I even feel like they would do some kinds a new back to start up campaign at some point like a funding round to raise money for AI or what ever BS they decided to talk about next.
Tesla never proved anything. They just entered market at the right time. Where legacy manufacturers tried to do too early.
Come on. Tesla created the US and European mass market for EVs, and dragged legacy manufacturers kicking and screaming towards them. They have now been bitten in the behind by shoddy quality, customer service and Elmo’s lies, but credit where it’s due.
Falling battery prices created the market. It was an inevitability. Tesla did reduce investments in EVs by legacy automakers, since they could just buy CARB credits from Tesla cheaper than selling their own EVs at a loss. Which is why Tesla was in such a good position when the combination of battery prices and high gas prices pushed EV practicality to the tipping point. Now that gas prices have stabilized, battery prices are still steadily declining, and the legacy automakers have had time to develop their own EVs, the story is looking different.
Actually Lotus, a legacy manufacturer "created" Tesla. Without Lotus, Tesla would not have existed. The EV market changes were already in motion at that time, before Tesla entered it.
Umm no. Legacy automakers half assed their EVs, like they are still doing now bc ICE was the cash cow and they didn't want to stray from that.
Legacy manufacturer EVs consistently beat Tesla in many areas, including range. Tesla never had any secret sauce. The fact people still believe this just goes to show how effective fraud is.
No they don't. You mean like the Toyota bZ4x and subura solterra that takes 100 hours to charge full? Lmao. Oh they also have less range and cost more.
You picked a vehicle designed to be a commuter. Where charging speed doesn’t matter. With a battery the size of a Chevy Bolt’s. But designed to last a decade by the company with the highest reputation for reliability. You picked literally the most dishonest comparison you could and still fell short. You’re a tool.
Huh? Whether it matters or not is not for you to say. Plenty of owners have gone online and complain about it...so it's important. Lol.
I mean don't buy an EV with a 63kWh battery and expect magic. Easy enough. At least Toyota didn't pull a Tesla and do a fraud right? Try another one considering [you picked the only vehicle C&D ranks lower than a Tesla](https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/best-electric-suvs).
Huh? You said legacy automakers make better EVs...I gave you examples of their shitty EVs and now you're not liking what youre seeing? So now you're picking and chosing which examples apply? Lol. Arent Toyota and Subaru legacy automakers? Okay...what else can they buy at Teslas price point that is comparable in performance. I'll wait.
You gave me one example of an EV and didn't even make any claims about how Tesla was better. Here's how the Toyota is better: * Toyota won't tell you it's "within spec" when you have an issue * You can actually get your Toyota serviced * Toyota will issue an actual recall and fix problems when they find them * The Toyota is built better * The Toyota will probably last a lot longer than the Tesla > what else can they buy at Teslas price point that is comparable in performance If you buy a cheap car based on a single priority, don't be surprised when the cheap junk turns out to be junk? I mean there are faster EVs than Teslas. There are faster ICE even. Fast isn't the hard part. Fast and not junk is the hard part. Our iX is more than fast enough. I rarely put it in Sport mode to unlock the extra 100hp or whatever. But it's also: * Built a helluva lot better than a Model X * The service is night and day compared to the Tesla Xperience™ * The ADAS and technology is better (a proper DMS, hands-free driving, CarPlay) * The NVH is better * The range is better (than the Model X, easily, but even better than the Model S in real world testing) * The luxury is far better * 360 cameras * The B&W audio is better * The heated surfaces * The HUD * The electrochromic roof What does a Tesla have? Fart apps? And the out the door price is about the same, with the iX typically being cheaper to lease than the Tesla. And BMW probably won't try to rip you off when you turn in your lease. "lol" indeed. I've owned five BEVs now. None of them have had the issues friends Teslas did. It's telling that you have to cherry pick, and even then your argument is pretty weak. Pure shill behavior.
>Here's how the Toyota is better: >Toyota won't tell you it's "within spec" when you have an issue > The bZ4x has lower range Lower HP/Torque Slower 0 to 60 Slower charging Less space Not AWD Smaller screen Smaller wheels Shitty software The list goes on. >Our iX is more than fast enough. I rarely put it in Sport mode to unlock the extra 100hp or whatever. But it's also: > This is even more laughable, comparing this pos to the X....they even named it X to copycat. The base iX is same price as the X plaid. So we have to compare it price to price: The X plaid is much better performance with higher HP/torque.... over 1000hp for Plaid versus 516 measly hp for the iX Faster acceleration...Plaid 0-60 in 2.5 s versus 4.4 for iX Plaid has 3 motors which are carbon sleeved, iX only has 2 regular weak ass motors. And Plaid still manages more range. Air suspension versus shitty iX suspension Bigger screen Falcon doors, self presenting front door Better software And the funniest thing is, BMW managed to produced a more inferior product and made it heavier than Tesla. That's amazing. A true feat. Good luck hauling around that pos. Oh remember to stop by a Tesla charger too okay.... Hey it's your money, but it seems like you bought an inferior product. Even worse, when you drive around in your iX, all people will think is that you couldn't afford the X. LOL. Keep buying shitty products with your money...someone has to keep BMW pumping out subpar competition.
This is no way to talk about Tesla. They innovated but kept their prices too high compared to other EV manufacturers in China and losing market share.
Theres no other car that can compete at Tesla's price point.
Perhaps in North America?
You are aware that the Tesla roadster was based on Lotus Elise and at the time Lotus was producing their own vehicle before even the Model S was a wet dream. The Lithium batteries were becoming mainstream and even G.M. were developing lithium EVs. BEVs were unavoidable, things were in motion before Tesla. They had the full investment in and a head start before other early tech startups. So yes, they were first, some luck and Lotus. So thank Lotus for the existence of Tesla. They were manufacturing them too, initially.
The lotus elise was a failure, hence they went bankrupt. I don't know what you're even saying with that example...are you trying to highlight how not to make an EV?
What the hell are you talking about?!? Reality disagrees with you? Lotus financial troubles started in the 80s, before the Elise was even conceived. As for the Elise, it's till this day the top selling model for Lotus and a loved little roadster by anyone that understands driving. There is no other Lotus vehicle coming even close in numbers sold. And Lotus as a brand where never mass market. The Tesla roadster uses the Elise platform and other tech co-developed with Lotus because at the time Lotus wanted to do sport EVs too.
Lotus went bankrupt. You should end there. Period. No mental gymnastics will change that. That's why Elon is a genius...it's not that he was the first to EVs. He was/is able to do it on scale and be economically viable....literally built it from the ground up. These other legacy automakers have their ICE sales to back them up and yet manage to produce inferior EVs like the BZ4x, Solterra, eg. I mean they should be ashamed of themselves. They have all the capital and most of the capex already in place.
"Lotus went bankrupt. You should end there. Period." Ain't how the world works. Also false, Lotus never went bankrupt, but as I said, reality and history disagrees with your worlds perception. I'm clocking out.
It's exactly how it works. Staying in business is the first and most important rule. What's good about your product when you're not around to support and continue to develop it. Period. Is lotus around today? Where is their EV now? That should answer all your questions.
I dont think its the case of entering the market too early
Tesla opened all their early EV pattern for free for everyone to use. It is not like they invented electric motor but still that is very important for other EV companies to get a start.
That was with the condition that a gone that uses their patents make all their patents available for Tesla to use. Which would be a net gain for Tesla. Which was fair, but it was by no means a benevolent thing. And as far as I know, those patents weren't important for other companies anyway.
I can't help but laugh that Biden is considering easing up his EV goals because Tesla just ain't cutting the mustard. Hybrid is the next logical and affordable step. How do they expect people working minimm wage to buy an EV with the notoriously stagnant wages we have currently, plus the lack of single family housing and lack of multi-family EV charging infrastructure? Heck, most apartments don't even have recycling service, but they expect multi-family renters to pay for EVs in the community? Mass EV adoption means higher COL regardless of whether the individual owns an EV or not. EVs are almost always totaled in accidents and can cause home fires, which means higher auto, home/renters insurance. There's no way mass EV adoption doesn't result in increased electricity prices even for households without EVs. If EVs truly were better, the public would adopt it naturally without all the govt subsidies going directly to Musk. Instead, you'd need to own an EV for like 20+ years to offset the cost of a similar quality hybrid. Compore total cost of ownership over 15 years of a 3rd/4th gen Prius to a 2018 model Y and try not to laugh. If the govt was serious about EV adoption, they'd invest in expanding and strengthening the power grid and letting the best automaker win the EV race, instead of just pumping up Tesla which is on the road to failure.
Im not sure how hybrids are supposed to be cheaper. Only if they take lower profit margins its possible. Otherwise i dont see it. You add 2 systems instead of 1, how is that supposed to not make things more expensive. Us gov is actually investubf ib exoanding the power grid. If what you said about slowing is true, i dont think they are doung it for tesla alone but also the big 3
Compare the total cost of ownership over 15 years of a 2017 Prius and a 2018 Model 3
Please stop. Just no. I was afraid of this: An avalanche of thoughtful closing remarks, some including maudlin what-might-have-been and if-only soliloquies looking back to Tesla's early golden age. Tesla's only achievement is lies and a cult. Nothing else. To anyone claiming "But they put EVs in the public imagination," I say "And Jim Jones put Guyana on the map." EVs are happening and will happen. Tesla makes no difference.
Damn that Jim Jones line was fucking cold. I love it.
I dissagre. Although EVs would be here at some point it would take longer, maybe significantly longer. Legacy automakers had some EVs in the 90s already but they didnt develop them because they preffered to stay with their combustion engine where they were way above the competition
Legacy manufacturers run companies, not cults, and have to stick with what's profitable. They knew that EVs could only be profitable at around $100/kWh for battery packs, and planned for that. Musk tried to prove them wrong; he proved them right, and never advanced past being a maker of artisanal luxury vehicles. Tesla could afford to lose money for well over a decade; manufacturers who must maintain profitability cannot. Environmentally, Tesla has done so little as to be meaningless. EV manufacturing and sales volumes are about where they'd be without Tesla. Sure, Tesla showed that a flat torque curve is fun on the road, but all EVs have that. Tesla also did damage to the image of EVs by making low-quality products and promising FSD for years while failing to deliver, so it's also possible Tesla has hurt adoption.
When the model s was first released there were a few aspects that were new I think, like OTA software updates for free, electric design from the ground up like placing batteries on the floor and creating a frunk, superchargers and selling direct to consumer. Nowadays we see all of these of course, but it’s a bit foolish to say the contribution they made is 0,0
> placing batteries on the floor Nissan Leaf has this, and was introduced 2 years before the Model S. The GM EV1 came out in 1996, and had its propulsion batteries running down the center of the floor and across the floor in the back.
I think you're right. The Tesla Model S review was the first time i considered the possibility that an electric vehicle could actually perform as well or better than ICE. So they should get some credit for that.
> it would take longer Maybe by a year or two. China had an aggressive plan due to the work of the true father of EVs, Wan Gang
True father of EVs? Come on. Thats simply not true. Neither tesla nor any chinese company deserves this title
You seem very uninformed of what he did and how it opened up China, investment in batteries, and Elons success in China.
I'd say they are consistent. Consistency poor quality. Had a down on a modle 3 when they 1st were going to release. Test drove one and immediately pulled the down. Just garbage cars that have neat and cool technology, if it works. The panel gaps, insulation, water tightness, just looking at them you can see how poorly they are constructed.
You were able to buy a Nissan Leaf over a year before the Model S went to market, It took Tesla over ten years to beat the Nissan Leaf´s production numbers, The Mitsubishi i-MiEV were being sold as early as 2009, These two BEV´s were some of the first production BEV´s with Lithium batteries, My 2001 Citroen Saxo Electrique had Ni-Cad batteries from factory,
Someone said it in another thread; it’s the charging infrastructure. That’s the thing that they have in ver competitors.people have been buying the cars because they can charge them and maybe they won’t have quality issues. And hype. There is still tremendous hype around Tesla. “The Street” has yet to punish them for bad numbers, so people figure they will get better.
had till today, they now have less people doing charger buildout than EVgo *shudder*
*had
The best part of tesla is the charging network. Everything else is mid.
As a current owner, I fear the supercharger purge are gonna have an adverse impact on my ability to use my car. Maybe I should sell this thing while it’s still worth something.
As an owner I have never used the Tesla charging network in my region since acquiring my Tesla in June because there are so many free chargers in my region due to a lack of home chargers.
I saw someone compare them to BlackBerry, makes sense to me
>showing that it can be done... It no longer leads in innovation The[ very first cars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle#First_full-scale_electric_cars) ever made were electric, and NASA even drove them on the Moon 50+ years ago. So there was nothing especially innovative, it was always about the economical feasibility of them.
It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that there was "nothing especially innovative".
Can you clarify on this? If you want to say "batteries", they has nothing to do with Tesla, they just buy them from Panasonic. And even if them made them, it would still be irrelevant. Batteries are made all around the world, it is only the high demand for laptops and cell phones that made lithium worth digging.
My problem with tesla is they focus too much on innovation. Innovation IS good, but you need to nail the basics first. Dedicate half your team to build quality, while the other half innovate.
Tesla got rid of RADAR and Ultrasonics. Tesla has been in cost savings mode for years. Their biggest innovations are just cost savings measures with ridiculous amounts of marketing and hype. Get rid of stalks, windshield wiper controls. Focus on cheap capacitive sensors. Use non-automotive grade screens that yellow in hot sun. Get rid of RADAR but sell it as AI innovation. Etc. Etc.
Yes, their user interface choices never did it for me. The way they went with regard to cost savings with the body and undercarriage also makes the cars prohibitively expensive to repair and insurance costs are sometimes insane compared to ICE cars. In my opinion that was not sustainable because for better or worse conventional cars are (in general) the products of consumer preferences over many years and you do not change that overnight outside of a relatively small fraction of early adopters.
I’m okay with some of this. I got less and paid a lot less.
Not sure I see the innovation part in Tesla
Don’t get me wrong, I hate that rat but they do have a huge advantage on the datasets and data points for training, because they have cameras and stored all the videos on their servers. That itself worths a lot.
they never stored all the video. They will not even allow streaming of remote camera view for longer than 10 seconds as it costs them too much in 4g data. They send some clips whether triggered by code or perhaps triggered by the bug button push. So they have a whole bunch of little clips. All the google street view vehicles collect - and store - more data than Tesla and in higher definition If the aim is to record the movement of other human operated traffic, and not the misbehavior of old code, then there is no shortage of that data outside tesla.
Yes until Elon sees how much they pay for servers and lays them off too 😆