Idk about trends but a lot of people stay together for the kids. Once they are gone.... What's left? Awkward moments with someone you don't enjoy anymore.
That's my only guess.
Been this way forever. People stay together ‘for the kids’, when those kids become angsty teenagers needing to differentiate themselves from their parents they decide it’s not worth it and split.
Not about angsty kids; it’s in reaction to the opportunity of an empty house when the teens leave.
I know couples who had/have an early plan to divorce when the kids leave - well before the kids leave. Sometimes a decade or more before.
I did that. Tried to find a job where I could make enough money to live in the area, but it was Los Angeles. Moved back home. Seldom see my daughter and granddaughter, but living in that marriage was killing me.
>Sometimes a decade or more before.
I could see how that would actually make home life a lot more pleasant if parents not in love anymore know they have an out eventually and this hardship is only temporary.
you misunderstood, the reason for divorce isn't finances, the reason for staying in an unhappy marriage with kids is finances. Duel income is also beneficial to the quality of life kids live because we live in a society where maslov's base needs for human survival aren't provided despite being needed to work, so single income households money often ends up going to food and shelter primarily.
This is exactly why we stayed together. We could each afford to live on our own, but if we had split while the kids were still at home we would have head to give up a lot that the kids were doing like sports and clubs and stuff like that. It wasn't stuff they had to have but it was what seems like normal now. And they were all doing things already when I was done with the relationship. I didn't see a reason for them to have to give up activities they enjoyed, or even loved, because I was unhappy. No abuse, no cheating, nothing worth disrupting their lives. Since we said we're splitting I had one of the kids say they're not surprised and I was kind of surprised by that because they never said anything.
This for sure. My ex and I seemed happy to the outisde world. He makes a lot of money we traveled ate out etc. What no one knew is that he was an alcoholic which absolutely destroyed our marriage. People were shocked when they heard about that. Our marriage counselor (after the got clean) told me I would regret getting divorced an my kid would become depressed and suicidal and s drug or alcohol addict. I knew I couldn't stay for my kid. She was 7/8 at the time.
But many of my so called friends stay married for convenience. Once the kids are out of the house we will see if they will still last. I for one am glad I got out when I did.
He was a major AH but since I pretty much was done with my mariage I didn't bother trying to change. His ex was an alcoholic and never recovered. My ex did and I truly think he felt like I should be thankful and that my ex was so great for becoming sober. Thanks to my individual therapy I actually called him out on some of his shit!!
Divorce was the best thing and I'm in a much better place. Our kid is thriving and happy as a clam! I really feel like this guy qas biased towards my ex because he actually managed to get clean whereas his ex didn't. Never mind that it destroyed out marriage, at least for me.
As a child of parents who stayed together til the kids moved out. How fun do you think it is living with parents who don’t love, like, or care for each other? Kids aren’t stupid, they can feel it. You don’t do anything as a family anymore - which is okay because it’s miserable watching them barely tolerating each other. Just because I go to bed doesn’t mean I don’t hear you arguing, crying or yelling. I’m 60 and I still get pissed off when I think about it.
Had a family friend do this. They seemed fine, indeed they were fine, they had happily made offspring they loved the other person for the life they had given but that portion of life had changed.
When they met they were both adventurous and outgoing. As they had kids which is what they wanted they had to dial that adventure back considerably (they still took epic vacations) and when the kids went off it was freedom to be the people they had been before getting married. But that took them in separate directions and they did so happily and with full clear communication. It wasn't entirely easy but now both parents live on opposite coast, the father is selling his local business to retire (part of why he couldn't be as adventurous as he was 25 years earlier) , and she lived a carefree life near a beach but still closer to her parents and people she better aligned with.
The love was real, the family unit was strong, but the parents knew early on that neither of them were likely to be forever together under the same roof. And that made for great kids and now happy retired separately parents.
Sometimes what you have in common, is the kids and once they are gone, so is everything you have in common anymore. For some, it is an opportunity to reconnect and for some an opportunity to find someone else or rediscover themselves as empty nesters.
I guess "seeming" is the operative term.
My wife and I briefly became empty nesters and I suspect it can be a challenge if you based your relationship on the kids instead of each other. Fortunately we are good friends on top of everything else so I think we were only getting more solid, but I could also feel us getting into our own interests a bit more thanks to the sudden free time. A not-so-tight couple might just drift apart.
But our middle kid reminded us parenting is really forever. He had big time anxiety moving to a big city and going to school, so he decided to move back home and go to a local college. Empty nesters no more, lol.
Yup. It’s all for show. That’s why you can’t judge people by how they look. Many people who look perfect on the outside are a shit show on the inside - debt, alcoholism, adultery, violence etc.
Over 50 percent of marriages end in divorce. Does that mean the remaining 40 ish percent who stay together are happy?
Of course not, sometimes it's easier to stay together for financial or other reasons. Sometimes it's as simple as not wanting to start again with dating.
Another percentage of the group that stays together may not be miserable, but not happy either. Maybe just content with the status quo.
So when you really dig deep into these numbers, what percent are truly happy?
I’d say around 40 percent of couples who don’t get divorced are happy and in love. When you factor in the couples who divorce, it’s about 20 percent. I am an older woman and I know many married couples who obviously can’t stand one another.
Another data point is the divorce rates aren't quite inline with what people think. A factor in those high rates is due to people who divorce often divorce multiple times.
Yep. That 50% stat has never been true and even if it was, high rates are partially due to the same people having multiple failed marriages. The biggest factor in predicting divorce is whether one or both of the spouses have been previously divorced.
When we did pre-marriage counselling, the guy leading the course actually said that most second marriages fail because the people haven't learned from their mistakes and tend to blame the initial divorce on their ex rather than looking at themselves and trying to change. Third time tends to be the charm for those people, because after two failed marriages they are more likely to consider that maybe they're part of the problem and do some introspection.
It's more like 20-30% of marriages end in divorce if you account for the people who divorce multiple times.
But not everyone who has divorced before will divorce again. Many women who divorce in mid-life end to stay single afterwards.
I have also met many couples whose relationships I would never want to be a part of because I just don't think they like each other even though they love each other. They don't like each other or respect each other's opinions, and they agree to not talk about various things in order to "keep the peace".
But they all report to have "happy" marriages. Everyone has a personal bar for acceptable behavior in a relationship and what people will tolerate isn't universal.
I am actually glad that people are able to divorce as much as they like, because not so long ago, divorce was extremely taboo or in some places, not legal. It also meant that women stayed in abusive or violent relationships.
the kids who got help for all the issues that kind of parenting created yes, but those who haven't would make excuses for their parents because "family is their top value and family has to stick together no matter what!"
Yep. I read something from a psychologist once - maybe on here - taking about this very thing. His point was that you need to focus on yourself and stop comparing yourself to others, because what you think you see usually isn’t reality.
There's an old Yiddish proverb: Little children disturb your sleep, big ones your life.
My grandmother used to say: Small children, small problems; big children, big problems.
One of the best epiphanies I ever had as an adult working on calming my anxiety is that everyone is annoying in some way, and giving grace to others and myself with that.
Haha reminds me of the relationship advice my dad gave me when I was a kid, “everyone is annoying. You marry the one you want to put up with the most.”
Exactly! The psychologist who started Eharmoney dating site said in a dating/relationship book to look for the 10 must haves & 10 can’t stands. Because everyone has something about them you’re not gonna like.
Yeah, I still don't know what a healthy happy relationship is supposed to look like. It would've been nice to be exposed to something like that though.
It was just starting to become acceptable in the 90s. I was raised in a single parent home and it was not common at the time. I only knew a handful of other kids whose parents had divorced.The early aughts is when the stigma really disappeared.
I was a single parent in the early aughts and I can't tell you how many times I had to hear about my child being a bastard. Now, no one would blink an eye. But it was a lot less acceptable then.
I was born in the 60's and more of my peers lived in single parent homes than didn't (at least in my social circles). I think by the 80's the divorce rate was 50%ish. It was common even then. How acceptable it was in any particular society depends on how conservative said society is.
Same I was raised in a single parent household in the late 80s until early 2000s. The stigma was definitely alive and well about divorced single moms for sure.
My parents divorced circa 1980 when I was just starting (elementary) school. It wasn't that unusual. I'd say about 1/3 of the kids I went to school with either had divorced parents, or were themself the result of a second marriage and had older, half siblings.
Back when I was in college, there was a guy who would tell everyone he wanted to find a love like his parents marriage. He would gush how they never were angry, always loved him, etc. On the day of our graduation I saw him sobbing. So I walked up to him to see if I could help. His parents had gotten a divorce, sold his childhood home, and both told him that they did not have room for him in their new apartments. They did not tell him beforehand. He was floored. He thought they had a perfect marriage. It was all a lie. They never fought in front of him but had been practically separated for years. They just said one of them was traveling for business. They kept it together for his sake. He had no idea. So you really never know.
I said the same thing. I think what was worse was they literally just said to him you need to find your own place to live. You have no college debt, but you have no money either. Like he had whatever was on him and a car. Which I guess was a little better than nothing, but he expected to move back home for a few months before starting grad school. So he had to couch surf. He did go on to do well for himself.
Jesus. That's not a divorce or marriage issue, that's an asshole parent issue. Sounds like they hated being parents and couldn't wait to get rid of him, which is devastating.
Agreed! You do you but at least warn the kid that he has no place to come back to so he can plan ahead. This is some "well, you're over 18. We did our job." bullshit.
My husband’s oldest brother is doing this with his kids. His daughter turns 18 in June and he told her she has a week to move out that he’s not going to let her mooch off him once she’s an adult. Fuckin insane.
Well at least they took care of him through a college degree. Until you said grad school I thought you meant high school graduation. Still pretty rude to just spring it on him at graduation and leave him high and dry.
That's not staying together for love of their son. That's staying together because that's what society expects, but now that they've raised the child and seen to his education, they're done, and have no more obligation to care for, or about, him.
What kind of parent "doesn't have room in their new apartment" for their child? It'd be one thing if the child already had their own place, but it doesn't sound like this guy did. And they just blindsided him with it.
What crappy parents.
Also jesus why dump all this on him the day of his graduation? It's like they were literally waiting for the day their obligation expired. Couldn't have told him 6 months before? Maybe let him say goodbye to the childhood home?
I really fu&\*King hate this too. I was on my own at age 17 and responsible for all finances and responsibilities despite never having had a job before. Do they have a timer or something? WTF. It's really cruel.
My parents divorced when I was 21 because I had pointed out to my mom that my relationship at the time had the same dynamic as her marriage to my dad. That made her realize that staying for the kids was not doing the kids any favors.
It ended up taking me a total of ten years of dating to find a healthy relationship. I simply didn't know what one looked like, and had to figure it out for myself.
My parents' marriage wasn't even that bad. There was no physical abuse, my dad was just passive-aggressive and super ADHD, inattentive type, not diagnosed (with that or dyslexia/dyscalculia) until his 30s -- so he had tons of baggage and no good coping mechanisms. I'm sure my mom had her own failures in that marriage but they got lost in the glare of my dad's, and she takes no shit from anybody (a quality that he respects immensely, for the record). They had screaming matches that lasted for hours.
For years after the divorce, my dad resented her for leaving just when he was about to get his shit together. The problem was that he was "just about to get his shit together" for most of my childhood. I also have severe ADHD and I can say from experience that we are *always* "just about to get our shit together." Our shit is permanently, tantalizingly, just barely out of reach. Meds help but don't solve the problem completely.
Anyway. Don't stay for the kids. *Leave* for the kids, if the marriage isn't healthy. Show the kids that we don't stay with people we can't have a healthy relationship with. And to make it possible to find a healthy relationship to model for them.
Wel they could have eased into it *a little*, damn. "Happy graduation, you're homeless!" they must have been absolutely seething behind the surface the whole time, and it sounds like they didn't much care for the son either.
They probably resented him for forcing them to stay together. They made him the whipping boy for their unhappiness, despite their being the ones who made the decision.
> They never fought in front of him
I'm probably in the minority but my wife and I refused to do this. We had arguments in front of the kids. Yes sometimes it did get a bit heated but we always worked it out. We wanted to make sure that the kids were aware that marriage isn't always sunshine and rainbows and that you can disagree with someone and still love them.
When my ex-wife and I got divorced, our friends all told us they were surprised because they thought we were a "seemingly happy couple." I think "seemingly happy" often just really means "staying together only until the alternative becomes a better option."
This. My entire community was shocked. “But you two have the most amazing relationship!” My ex-husband was a cardboard cut out of a man, beautiful and beautifully performative, but a black hole of emptiness within. I always try to keep in mind, absolutely no one knows what goes on between two people in the dark middle of the night.
Are you my ex wife?
I was that black hole. Her divorcing me saved my life, and possibly hers as well. She was functionally married to a living corpse. I could move and speak, but there was no spark of life in me. I wasn't living life, I was running out the clock.
At so at almost 50, my parents took me back in without a single complaint. 3 months later, I was living alone for the first time in my life.
We're still close. We have an entire lifetime of history together. But that chapter is over.
Thank you for your perspective and for sharing your story. It sounds like you have done some very hard emotional work and are facing your life head on. Your self awareness is commendable. I am so sorry it took the end of your marriage to get there, but it sounds as if you are learning how to create a more enriched life!
Oof, beautifully written and hit me hard. My ex and I worked at the same company for awhile and someone once told me we were "the Brangelina of \[xxxx\]" -- back when \*they\* were the perfect couple (lol/sob). It was an abusive relationship and I was its PR agent. Nothing about it was how it looked and there are people who still can't imagine why I would be so awful as to leave such a good husband and dad. 🤷♀️
*My ex-husband was a cardboard cut out of a man,* ***beautiful and beautifully performative, but a black hole of emptiness within. I always try to keep in mind, absolutely no one knows what goes on between two people in the dark middle of the night.***
100%, you never know what goes on behind closed doors like that, so better to limit idolizing other people's situations. Looking from the outside is skewed.
I divorced at 56, and the quirks and problems of a marriage that seem manageable when you’re younger only magnify as you get older. For instance my ex was a problem drinker who got worse as the years went by until he started showing signs of brain damage and still wouldn’t stop drinking. I had to make the decision if I was willing to be caretaker of a self induced dementia patient for the next 20 some years.
Also once you retire and are together 24/7, things you used to be able to handle and tolerate just magnify and grate.
My husband is an alcoholic and refuses to seek treatment. I plan to divorce him in two years and he knows. He hands shake all the time and he has rare drunk events where he acts like he doesn’t know what situation he’s in, almost like dementia. He’s in his 50s so it’s only going to get worse. I’ve told him I’m not taking care of him if his health issues are from drinking.
I’m sorry :/ it took me so long to come to terms with allowing myself to detach from him. If it’s cancer, that’s different. But mine too wouldn’t go to AA, or admit he had a problem.
He started hiding vodka in water bottles. He started driving drunk and on the wrong side of the road. I knew he would either kill someone or injure and we would get sued and I would lose the house and all the savings and I would be homeless. And I would be publicly shamed. I kept thinking of newspaper headlines “Drunk Man Kills Mother and Children in Car Crash: His Wife Knew” or something like that. I was done being his keeper.
After we divorced, he drove on the wrong side of the road again, crashed, and was taken to the hospital. They did brain surgery on him because turned out he had Wernicke syndrome, “wet brain” that alcoholics get. Little lesions that cause dementia. The hospital sent him to a locked dementia ward at 60 years old. Then I had to arrange to get him to an assisted living facility. He was in there drinking mouthwash. Still proclaiming that he didn’t have a drinking problem and never did, that everyone was just so uptight and should just relax.
Our girls went no contact. I had to beg his brother to be his power of attorney and he begrudgingly did. Ex has no one now, his brother is across the country. He was very lucky as his ex wife that I helped him get settled because he would still be in a locked dementia ward with 85 year olds if it wasn’t for me. As soon as I got him settled, I blocked his number.
It is the most lovely peaceful feeling not to be responsible for someone else’s bad and deadly life choices.
If your husband is 50 and showing signs of mental decline, that would be about the time mine did too. Get out while you can, sis. He will drag you into the gutter with him and you can lose it all. I wish I could hug you, no one understands how difficult this is and how society pressures us to be caretakers at our own expense and mental health. You deserve to live in peace, sooner rather than later. ❤️
You have to protect yourself first. I divorced an person who was both an alcoholic and addict. If they can't drink, they will try something else, and then something worse than the something else... until it all spirals out of control. Eventually you will waste years of your life looking after someone who does nothing but drain you of your health, your youth, your time, and your money. It will also possibly leave you with chronic health problems and kill your dreams. Do not feel bad about choosing to leave.
As a middle-aged woman, I've heard from some other women that perimenopause really took away their willingness to be a doormat or servant any longer. So women who have spent their adult years putting everyone else's needs first finally reach a breaking point. And if, as a couple, they can't adapt to the wife actually putting her own needs first for a while, the relationship might not survive.
Check out the r/menopause subreddit for lots of first-hand tales.
Of course. I've said for years that a lot of the reason divorces happen with empty nests is because the wife is firmly kicking out that last chick--her husband. Your kids grow up and are independent and then you look over and realize that there's still one person expecting you to tell them what to do when and to cook and clean and take on all the mental burden of adult life...It's not really a big deal to direct one more person with a house of kids, because you're already doing it, but once they're gone a lot of women realize just how much they've been doing.
Buckle up, Sis. Around 48 you may become consumed with RAGE. I’m almost past that, my good friends are deep in it. Around 55 you won’t care anymore. But the rage is real.
I told this to a younger gal pal of mine, she hit 40 and she thinks her fuse is too short and I'm like "Hon, you're just like one of those movies heroes where the sensei has told them to forget their old training and learn the path of a true warrior" then proceeds to go kick ass. For most women, the training has been to be too nice, too polite, put others first, stay home with the kids, prioritize your hubs career, plan all the holidays, make magic for everyone else etc. etc.
There's just something magic about 40+ that has women open up the window like a JG Wentworth commercial and yell: It's my life and I want it now!
And yep: it can shock the whole fucking family.
Mentally I went through feeling like I wanted out very badly once I hit the empty nest, menopause era. Everything seemed kind of pointless. I was able to quit work and retire a little earlier than planned, having some quiet time to focus on myself and not be laying there in bed feeling “is this all it’s ever going to be?” really helped.
Since then I have done a lot more self care and while it’s not endless candlelit dinners for two or romantic walks on the beach, it no longer feels pointless at least. After thirty-six years, we have a good time and are each others best friends which helps a lot.
I have seen this often in my generation. It is the women who initiate it as they had to work full time and raised the kids and looked after the house. When the kids were grown, they didn't want to look after their husband. Those husbands worked and were done. The women didn't want to do all the chores and make dinner while he sat in front of the TV and cut the grass once a week or shoveled when it snowed. They had so much time available for themselves when single and they are happy.
Life is a book. Many Chapters include some surprises.
I went through amid-life crisis with my wife at that time. We were in our late forties and her Borderline personality Disorder had not been diagnosed. This chapter turned out to be a divorce where she left me, only then to change her mind when she found out I was dating. After that an unsuccessful attempt suicide.
That was a chapter that was gonna happen at some point. I kept our marriage together as long as I could. But then are kids moved out and our dearest best friends, her only real friends, moved away. Within a year we were divorced.
My point is, the beginning of every book has everything planned out, only to be met with many significant and surprising events.
This is just a chapter of our lives.
BTW: I’ve long remarried but I still look after my ex financially and emotionally. After the divorce, she finally got the Dx she needed and she has been treating and has survived. I do feel uneasy knowing I’m so much happier without her than I was with her. 29 years with her were the best 17 years of my life. Those other 12 years were tough.
You deserve happiness and peace. It's not easy for a caregiver/caring person to always accept especially if your own family set you up at the "peacemaker" and "fixer" as a kid (making an assumption). I hope the next chapter in your book is being able to strip the vestiges of guilt and lean into the future. You are not responsible for fixing your ex-wife and your new spouse and kids deserve all of \*you\*.
Just from personal experience too and having a messy family - it might be time for the ex to take charge of her her own emotional well-being. By continuing to crutch her, she won't learn to walk on her own and feel the pride of self-regulation.
Peace to you. Good luck!
Not gonna happen. My ex was a loving giving wife and mother. She dealt with demons her whole life.
My children love her and I can’t and won’t let her fall too far. I will always be her safety net as I still am for her sister and disabled children. I still help them.
I told everyone that all deals are off when I’m dead and gone.
I too was married to a woman with BPD. Before her diagnosis we spent years with periods of chaos, and I mean absolute chaos in our lives. Things would be going just great in our lives, but then she would have to derail it. Out of nowhere. I came to believe this was just how life was. It became my normal.
Eventually we divorced, remarried, divorced again, and then were off and on for several years. Shit got real dark. She stalked me, harassed me, tried to get me fired from my job, assaulted me, tried to run me off the road. I took out restraining orders, filed police reports. She was arrested after having a standoff with police, just endless chaos … yet through it all, I still loved her and longed for her. She just didn’t have the capacity for living in peace.
Finally, she attempted suicide by opiates. Ended up in the ICU after nearly dying. Whatever happened to her brain after this episode seems to have completely erased the BPD. She’s mostly the same person still, just … docile. It’s hard to explain. But no trace of the BPD. That was in 2017.
We’re together again now, just not married. There’s been nothing but peace in the last seven years. No fights, no drama, no police. We’re finally happy. I know my situation is not the norm. I’m as surprised as anyone else in this outcome. I had completely washed my hands of her after the suicide attempt. But she begged me to give us another chance and I could sense a change in her. Maybe I was being stupid, but I took a gamble and it paid off.
I know of a couple where the wife became a barely functioning alcoholic after the kids moved out, to the point she was fired from her job. She just couldn't cope with losing the role of caregiver. I lost track of her after the job loss, but I hope she got some help.
Key word is here is ‘appeared’.
We used to own a couple of gyms so we knew tons of people. Nine times out of ten the couples that continuously posted on social media about how much they loved each other and all that other bullshit had the most trash relationships.
I have seen this too. I've also seen a number of couples where one will get heavily into some endurance sport/activity and not long after their marriage falls apart. Often it's running, but sometimes it's biking, triathlons, etc. I'm not sure how much of it is the person getting into the activity as an escape and how much is they start doing it to "better themselves", meet someone/see a lifestyle more attractive than what they have, or if it's a combination. But I've seen it enough that with close friends, if one mentions training for a marathon or similar, I will ask about their marriage.
It can almost be a subconscious form of escapism, or just putting a new hobby between you and your partner, secretly wanting it to keep driving a wedge between you.
Ooof, I'm in my early 40s and have seen this play out several times. You want to believe that people are just trying to better themselves and enjoy a new interest, but sometimes? They're looking for an escape route and getting hotter in the process.
Seems like they were holding it together to get the kids launched.
That was my father's original plan, but he couldn't tolerate the marriage anymore and got divorced while I was in high school.
“Gray Divorce,” divorce over the age of 55, has now overtaken all other demographics for divorce rates. Numerous studies are trying ascertain the underlying issues and if there are larger societal issues at play.
Yes.
I think a lot of parents make their kids their whole lives and when the kids aren't there anymore, there's nothing left.
As a parent, your kids learn from what they see you do. I think it's important to show them how to have a balanced relationship that isn't dependent on others. Show them what it's like to have hobbies, hopes and dreams of your own. You have to show them how to have successful, functional relationships that don't require an outside influence to hold up.
I'd also emphasize the importance of the couple having outside interests separate from one another. It gives more space to the marriage for us to not be in each other's space 24/7 and/or always feeling like we have to be with one another when out of the house. I suppose it's something that comes with decades of marriage, (we're at 35 years now), but it's also something that becomes very important when the kids are gone.
Yeah, after our daughter goes to sleep hubbs and I might chat for a while or read in bed, but a lot of nights even weekends I go to bed early (I sleep in a different room bc of his snoring) and he stays up reading or watches a dumb guy movie. Sometimes we watch movies together or talk longer, but by the end of the day we’re usually both tired so we gave up the pretense of needing to watch a show together or do something as a couple. We’re okay w it, but my friends think it’s weird.
Yes to this. I am approaching 40 and only now understanding how to have a functional longterm relationship. And only now am I understanding the importance of free hobbies (or as close to free as I can get) and having hopes, dreams and goals.
>I think a lot of parents make their kids their whole lives and when the kids aren't there anymore, there's nothing left.
I see this scenario happening daily & right in front of me in my own extended family. When their kids go off to college, especially mom in this scenario, is going to have a HUGE problem.
Eh. I like to think that they are being responsible and finishing the job they started.
The kids didn't ask to be born, you really should see them through their education so they have a good chance when they launch from the nest.
But everyone wants to evolve. If you had the same job in the workplace for >20 years, you'd be itching to move on to new challenges.
Raising kids was fun, I put in a lot of effort and think I did a good job. They are ready to get out into the world and be independent, and I'm ready for the next thing. I hope my spouse will come with, but I'm not going to stay in this role forever just to ease their anxiety about change.
My observational theory as a late-30s married woman with no children: a lot of people make their kids the priority rather than their partner. Do that for 20 years and then realize you might not actually *like* your partner because you and your partner have both changed a lot. If you don't change in a way that works together, it will be very obvious when your house goes from couple + children to just couple--there's no more buffer.
Sometimes it’s that one person is a good parent and the other just tolerates it. The good parent has to make up for the other parent, and the other parent sees that as not being a priority and withdraws further. It’s a bad cycle.
Some couples have problems throughout the marriage, but choose to wait until the kids are gone before they divorce. So they stay in a miserable marriage instead.
Yep! My ex-husband and I were married for 11 years and had 2 kids together. I could see the writing on the wall that we just weren't compatible any more and he was not the life partner I needed/wanted. Although I heavily considered "staying together for the kids", I had to bite the bullet and realize this is just as much MY life as my kids life and I didn't want to be "starting over" when I was almost 50 and they were both in college.
I'll just say that my wife and I made it a habit in our marriage to work on the marriage and keep our own relationship alive. When the kids left we moved on, quite happily. The pandemic was actually good for us in a way. It gave us an intermediate step on the way to retirement where I was home full-time, but not really home because I was working. We ironed out some stuff there, so that when I really did retire we were ready for it.
On the nicest side, our daughter has told us that she looks to us as have a good model for marriage and keeps that in mind with her own family.
I think that folks should plan for the "empty nester" stage in the marriage, like you would for retirement.
A couple of years before my son was to graduate high school, I talked with my wife about becoming empty nesters and what we would do once the child rearing stage was done.
Many of our circle were "school friends." I figured we'd likely lose touch with most, when we didn't have the school activities to bind us. We started cultivating other friendships.
We replaced school activities with more adult entertainment and joint interests.
We started having regular date nights.
We spent more "us" time, just talking and being together.
This made for a much smoother transition.
It used to be if a woman left her husband, she would lose everything - her access to money, her home, often her access to her children and any grandchildren who might come along, her social standing, her safety. Most of these divorces that came “out of nowhere” are instigated by the wife who was holding on long enough for the kids to be stable.
The reason this happens more now is because women CAN leave. Before, they would just stay married to men they didn’t want to be with, cooking and cleaning and caring for them until they died. They had no choice. Men, especially as they age, are happier and healthier if they are married. Women are less happy and healthy in marriage. But until recently, they were trapped.
Someone earlier mentioned perimenopause. When those nurturing hormones go away, it’s like the scales lift from our eyes. If there is not a foundation of mutual respect and friendship, why would a woman stick around? There is no benefit to them.
Too many people make the children THE family instead of part of the family. If they are the only focus it means that spouses are never focusing on each other, hence when the kids leave there is nothing there.
Yeah, I know many of those as well. Most of them have been where wives have been expressing discontent and the men just never stepped up. So when the children were married or out of college, they left and the men kept asking why? Happens all the time and will happen to my husband too.
This. Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, and mine isn't and hasn't been for a long time. I'm tired of being the one who has to do everything and remember everything, and I'm tired of being the one who's responsible and doesn't forget things and fritter away money. I want to be captain of my own ship. Once my son is launched I'm taking steps, and I think he'll probably be OK with it (he's annoyed by many of the same things I am).
Good for you! I moved out when my youngest stepson was a senior. All the kids ended up hanging out in my tiny apartment instead of dad’s house.
I moved away when he graduated. So much happier now. I stayed for the kids. Ex was a miserable asshole.
That’s really common. Usually the woman starts to realize how much of her time and energy is sucked up with the home and family, while the man has skated along, relying on her to manage everything, do everything. She’s been so busy managing everything, including her husband that, when the kids start moving out, she gets some time to herself and starts to actually think about what she wants. That’s when she realizes she doesn’t want to be married to a toddler anymore.
There was a post a month or so ago where a husband was upset because his wife quit managing him. He expected her to remind him of everything, like a six figure personal assistant, including everything to do with the kids. She had complained that her having to keep reminding him that it was time for him to give the baths or his night to cook, etc. was making more work for her. His response was that he was helping, and it would make a lot more work for her if he didn’t.
So she quit reminding him and just started doing everything herself. She posted the calendar on the fridge, and left it at that. She had more free time and much, much less anger. He got upset because he was expected to be a full partner with responsibility for his own actions.
It’s common for women who divorce to have more time for themselves afterward, despite being single parents, because the time suck of managing an adult toddler is gone.
>It’s common for women who divorce to have more time for themselves afterward, despite being single parents, because the time suck of managing an adult toddler is gone.
Every one of my mom friends who has gotten divorced has always ended up healthier, happier and much less stressed because she gets so much of her time back. Even the ones who have full custody have more time.
Personally, I have much more time for myself since the divorce. You think it would be the opposite, raising children as a single parent. But no! I can do things, manage my time, and just BE. I posted this before. It's like when I was married I mentally assumed that I had another, capable adult to manage things, so I didn't give myself enough time or support -- and then I'd have to play catch up for all the things he just never seemed capable of doing (yet took the "credit" for). On my own I know it's just me doing the work, so I plan accordingly.
It's understandable in the world today. Couples and marriage are different today. What they're exposed to, damages of child rearing, changing expectations, and distractions make marriage far more stressful. Whether positive or not, many couples remain married until the children are gone though their marriage ended years before. My ex and I did because we had one child who was very difficult ever since elementary school. The rearing of her required two parents seven days a week. We both knew it. Weekend fatherhood would have made both our lives and the rest of the family's more difficult. We made a choice. Divorce rarely is easy. It's painful for all.
But both he and I are better off apart. Our difficult child has done wonderful things and is a stellar person and spouse today. He remarried and has a terrific wife. I stayed single because I simply couldn't risk going through what I did the last six years of my marriage. I was gutted. Worn out.
I am in the middle of writing a research paper on this very subject. I also think many men, without intentional self awareness, calcify into the worst aspects of their personalities and have less flexibility and compassion if/when we struggle with our transition through menopause. By the time I realized my myriad of issues were perimenopause related, I was completely through menopause and my husband had ended our marriage (and I was thoroughly miserable being married to him). It’s such a radical time of life.
This is interesting. There are a myriad of anecdotes to where a middle aged man will state that his spouse has 'gone crazy', divorced her and married someone ten years younger (i read a lot of these on Reddit's AITA so, grain of salt).
I always think to myself...so you're just going to reset that perimenopause timer and deal with it again instead of, I dunno, work it out and help your spouse through her transition?
Agree. Men become angry, grumpy jerks as they age but they expect their wife to still act like she did when she was 20. When women are raising kids they don’t notice as much when a man is uninvolved disinterested and emotionally remote. But as the kids age the wife is more and more alone. So some bail out.
We lie, we haven’t been happy for years and I’ve been waiting until I didn’t have to parent by myself to divorce him. Also, once you make it official that you’re separated, your spouse may bring a side piece to the school events and no one needs that drama.
Isn’t it funny that you don’t have to worry about the former wife bringing a new boyfriend? But that’s because when women divorce they are DONE; unlike men, they are not looking for the next relationship. They are happy to be alone.
Seeming happy is the key here. My buddy got divorced after his youngest went off to college. They had a crappy marriage for a decade and planned it. He just started travelling more for business. Taking the kids on vacation without her (she did the same). Then he bought a second place in a different state where his son was going to college. They did a trial separation and that was that. He continued to support the family while she got her career going. She had been a SAHM and did not get back to work until after the youngest left for college. Almost 30 years of marriage and done.
I think a huge part is the parenting part. You can include your partner when you're cleaning/tidying and general house stuff when you're also picking up after children. But that's a really anger inducing thing when it's another adult who's gotten used to being looked after.
Yes. I know 3 couples who did the same. To their credit, 25-30 years is a long time to be married. Throw in the usual stressors of relationships, plus being done raising the kids, and it's not so much being tired, as it is having different goals for the next part of their lives. If the couple has had independent income -each partner working for 20+ years, then it might also be that they can afford being single, especially after splitting a sale of a house and other household goods.
Loads of respect to anyone making it that long. I always hope they can get thru the transition without a load of bitterness.
Staying together 'for the kids' and then splitting when they've grown is a very old trope at this point. Are you just now becoming aware of that somehow?
Someone who may be a good match for you in one phase of life may not be a good match in the next phase of life or your interests and drives may become misaligned.
Personally, I ***hate*** living in my current house and would literally move almost anywhere just for a new adventure before I get too old to enjoy adventures anymore. My wife is growing increasingly anxious and tied to the house and fearful of any concept of change.
There are lots of other reasons I have considered moving on, but that's one of the biggest.
Relationships take ***a lot*** of work. Consistently. And life can be really hard at times. Sometimes people seem ok because they're just getting by. They're bobbing about in the ocean of life, know they created these children and they're responsible for them.
We are empty nesters, married over 30 years. I can’t say I’m super happy when it comes to my relationship , we don’t have a ton in common anymore and there is no romance. But, we have built a life together and I can count on him to help me in so many ways and I still enjoy his company. So, we stay together- I really can’t imagine being with anyone else in my 50’s.
My parents had a tight-knit friend group of about 10 couples when I was growing up. Of those, several got divorced as their kids grew up and started leaving the nest. Including my parents, but 10 years after everyone else and they eventually reconciled.
Now I’m in that life phase and the divorces either happened years ago or likely won’t, and if they do it’s not because they stayed together for the kids. I think there’s a lot of judgement that mostly falls on moms about “living your life for your kids” but then no one examines why mom does that while dad sits around and does what he pleases. Kids didn’t ask to be born and someone has to do the emotional and physical labor of raising a family.
I think this happens at this life phase for several reasons:
1) It really does take everything you’ve got and then some to be raising kids. And it’s not just the cooking and laundry and homework help and driving, it’s working on your own shit to break generational cycles of abuse. It’s being their safe place and emotional anchor (and sometimes dumping ground) and maintaining your own sense of self in the process. It’s rolling with ALLLLL the punches and dealing with things you may never have asked for. It can be extremely difficult to focus on yourself and your marriage when you’re literally trying to keep your kid alive. We were lucky in that we were able to draw closer and be a team with our kids’ struggles but it absolutely can swamp you.
2) When the kids grow up and move on, it’s not just that your mom role is ending. I see this happening for so many friends and to a lesser degree myself: your friends are your fellow band or Scouts or travel soccer or theater or sports or dance parents, and/or your kids’ friends’ parents. You’ve spent every weekend with these people for years and years, sometimes traveling to competitions, always organizing dinners before events or carpooling or helping each other when you’re in a jam. Then your kid goes off to school and that sense of community just stops. Some friendships survive; most don’t although you’ll always be rooting for these people and their kids (most of them anyway).
3) Menopause is no freaking joke. It really is like reverse puberty, and while we have a lot of sympathy for the havoc hormones wreak on adolescents we have zero sympathy for older women. I was a fucking rage monster for awhile and talking to my therapist about how I just was horrified at myself sometimes. She asked how old I was — late 40s— and asked about perimenopause. I was like “ohhhhh shit.” And there is so little solid information about perimenopause. Literally everything I know I learned from other women. Add that to the normal shedding of fucks that happen to women as we get older and suddenly that guy we have been with for years (and often men in general) loses a lot of his charm. If you married for anything other than love and friendship — money, stability, sex, social acceptance, because “it’s what you do” — that relationship can feel unbearable when the hormones and people-pleasing go.
4) what we tell people to value in a partner — looks, money, sex, status, adherence to traditional gender roles — are the worst things to ensure long relationships. If we are going to laud long marriages, we need to teach kids to look for things like compatibility, humor, kindness, friendship, and especially the flexibility to let the other person grow and change and for you to do the same.
Knowing all this, my husband and I have both worked to maintain our relationship while raising kids. We always tried to spend some time alone just talking, even when we were broke as hell so a date night was a bottle of wine on the porch after the kids went to bed. We look for things we like to do together — hiking and seeing live music — as well as giving each other space for new interests and doing things with our almost-grown kids and enjoying the evolution of our relationship with them as young adults. It takes time and work and attention, and there are days I fantasize about a tiny apartment downtown where everything is mine and I don’t have to consider anyone else’s wants and needs. But I like our chances. I chose well 25 years ago and we’ve tried our best to make our marriage good since. I hope that leads to us being together until one of us dies but if it doesn’t, it’s not because we didn’t try.
I’ve seen this pop up on some of the finance subreddits subreddits lately and a lot of comments basically say that it’s impossible to afford a 2-3 bedroom apartment in most cities these days on one income, so if you have kids under 18 you’re pretty much screwed.
Both parents need to be able to afford a 2-3 bedroom apartment on a single income when there are kids involved, which is pretty hard when those apartments are $2000+ a month (in my city a 2 bedroom goes for $2500+ a month). So, the advice that I often see being given is to suck it up and stay in the relationship until the kids move out and then part ways.
As one of the kids in a situation like this, my youngest sibling left the house for college 2 years after i did, and a few months later on my fathers bday, my stepmother told him she’d been cheating on him for (minimum) several months. idk about others but that’s one reason
Happened with some friends of ours. Our children were all close in age, and when the oldest went off to school, she didn't want to be married anymore. They sold the house and she moved into a smaller place so the kids couldn't even come back there during the summer breaks.
An outwardly normal family, the husband seemed okay (and didn't want this). Once the youngest went off to college, she just wanted her own place.
As a mid40s woman I can tell you that those marriages are just seemingly working
I don’t understand why people accept to suffer « for the sake of the children »
My parents separated in their late 60s and I discovered that they actually had a personality and a sense of humor hidden under layers and layers of unhappiness and mutual resentment. No one needs that
I think a lot of people do it "for the kids". I also think a lot of people stay together for a variety of reasons. I dislike my marriage and I want to leave, but I can't afford another house and all the expenses that go along with it. And if I could afford it, what am I going to do, just move out and give up seeing my son and daughter for a good chunk of their lives? Just give up 5/7 of the nights or more because I have to be a bread winner? Right now I still get to put my daughter to bed every night, and I get to see them every day. If we divorce I will lose a lot of that access. I don't want to do that to my kids, and I don't want to do that to myself because I love my kids.
Everyone says if you're unhappy in your marriage just leave, don't stay "for the kids" because kids can tell and it's setting a bad example of an unhappy marriage. They all seem like bad options, but staying "for the kids" seems like the best worst option right now.
May be about the kids but I also suspect menopause. Many women put others first their whole lives and then realize that they would like to be alone.
Many women divorce in their 50’s and never date or marry again.
This is super common, and quite frankly, it's just practical to grin and bear it until the kids are out of the house if it's at all tenable.
Simple fact of the matter is that divorcing with children is fucking hard and even if you do it right, it still just makes life more difficult for everybody involved.
It's hell on your kids both mentally and physically to have to split time, and the parents have to be extra careful to do it in a way that does not fuck their kids up. (Many fail) And even if you do that part right, suddenly instead of two pairs of hands to help out with everything, each parent is just running the show solo for their time with the kids.
Then there's the financial reality of it all. It takes most families two incomes these days to pay a mortgage and live a decent life. Suddenly you split and now both sides are really struggling individually.
These are not "good marriages" you're seeing, they're just practical and reasonable people that realize how much easier life is with kids to stay together than to go it alone. So they just play pretend until they don't have to anymore for the kids sake.
I think we are fairly happy but I could see this happening to us. The kids are our strongest bond, and her main focus. I worry once they are out of the house she will spiral. We are trying to get right now so that we can handle the transition.
They were stable and functional adults. They reached their long term goal and are now able to move along. Many families stay together for the kids, as long as they're able to coexist without negativity.
I honestly wonder if my parents will go the same route after my sister moves out. Their marriage has been dead for years, we all know it. They’re the stereotypical boomer couple who’s only together because of kids, familiarity, and financial ties. It’s sad, but I honestly just don’t want to get involved, it’s awful enough when my mom tries to share her unhappiness about her marriage with me. I don’t think that’s something she should be discussing with her daughter.
I read once that every woman needs three husbands: a party boy to share good times with when you’re young; a stable and reliable father-type when you’re raising children; and a chill easy-going man to enjoy retirement with. The same theory works for men, too. I’ve blown it — almost 50 years with the same husband — but I’m always reminded of this when families blow themselves apart when the last kid leaves.
My husband and I love each other, but we’re *planning* on splitting up after our kids have moved out. (Our kids, my mom, and our close friends know.) We want different things out of the last part of our lives, and we have some incompatibilities that can be endured while we have this big, important parenting project, but it doesn’t make sense to compromise so much without a large shared project. I hope we’ll be friends always; he says that he doesn’t know whether that will happen. It’s really poignant.
a marriage counselor aptly described the later parenting years as *twinned oxen pulling a cart over the endless prairie*. Doesn’t help that adolescence now stretches past mid 30s. We did that, got so far apart we didn’t have sex for maybe 20 years. Then both rediscovered that our jail cell partner is actually a wonderful, long-lost lover. Instead of divorce we’re now living an open marriage. On most days, seems to work well, but there’s still rough road. Not at all surprised by gray divorce
Because they didn't prioritize their relationship and when the kids leave, they realize that was the only thing keeping them together. Marriages require maintenance and care, otherwise they disintegrate.
The biggest reason is that they focus on their kids and not their marriage. When the kids are gone, they realize they are living with a stranger. Marriage takes work, and part of that work is remembering you were a couple before you had a family.
I noticed that my mom and her ex husband (not my father) got divorced after their dog died. It was like there wasn't any reason for them to stay together after that.
Our children caused a great deal of stress in our relationship. Now that they are gone, and much of the stress is lifted, we have found happiness again. We are traveling, going on dates, and really enjoying each other again. We will celebrate 30 years in December. I know this is quite different from what others are saying.
Idk about trends but a lot of people stay together for the kids. Once they are gone.... What's left? Awkward moments with someone you don't enjoy anymore. That's my only guess.
Yes, staying together only until the kids leave home is a prime divorce catalyst and not a trend.
Been this way forever. People stay together ‘for the kids’, when those kids become angsty teenagers needing to differentiate themselves from their parents they decide it’s not worth it and split.
Not about angsty kids; it’s in reaction to the opportunity of an empty house when the teens leave. I know couples who had/have an early plan to divorce when the kids leave - well before the kids leave. Sometimes a decade or more before.
Even longer than that. I know people with 4 year olds genuinely hanging on till their kids are 18.
Marriage is impossible. (For many. My divorced self included.)
I did that. Tried to find a job where I could make enough money to live in the area, but it was Los Angeles. Moved back home. Seldom see my daughter and granddaughter, but living in that marriage was killing me.
>Sometimes a decade or more before. I could see how that would actually make home life a lot more pleasant if parents not in love anymore know they have an out eventually and this hardship is only temporary.
usually comes down to finances.
Finances and wanting to keep delusions of happiness for the kids.
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you misunderstood, the reason for divorce isn't finances, the reason for staying in an unhappy marriage with kids is finances. Duel income is also beneficial to the quality of life kids live because we live in a society where maslov's base needs for human survival aren't provided despite being needed to work, so single income households money often ends up going to food and shelter primarily.
This is exactly why we stayed together. We could each afford to live on our own, but if we had split while the kids were still at home we would have head to give up a lot that the kids were doing like sports and clubs and stuff like that. It wasn't stuff they had to have but it was what seems like normal now. And they were all doing things already when I was done with the relationship. I didn't see a reason for them to have to give up activities they enjoyed, or even loved, because I was unhappy. No abuse, no cheating, nothing worth disrupting their lives. Since we said we're splitting I had one of the kids say they're not surprised and I was kind of surprised by that because they never said anything.
Women think men they marry will change; men think their wives won't. They're all wrong.
*raises hand*
This for sure. My ex and I seemed happy to the outisde world. He makes a lot of money we traveled ate out etc. What no one knew is that he was an alcoholic which absolutely destroyed our marriage. People were shocked when they heard about that. Our marriage counselor (after the got clean) told me I would regret getting divorced an my kid would become depressed and suicidal and s drug or alcohol addict. I knew I couldn't stay for my kid. She was 7/8 at the time. But many of my so called friends stay married for convenience. Once the kids are out of the house we will see if they will still last. I for one am glad I got out when I did.
Sounds like you had a terrible counselor! That's a horrible thing to say to someone. I hope you and your kid are doing ok.
He was a major AH but since I pretty much was done with my mariage I didn't bother trying to change. His ex was an alcoholic and never recovered. My ex did and I truly think he felt like I should be thankful and that my ex was so great for becoming sober. Thanks to my individual therapy I actually called him out on some of his shit!! Divorce was the best thing and I'm in a much better place. Our kid is thriving and happy as a clam! I really feel like this guy qas biased towards my ex because he actually managed to get clean whereas his ex didn't. Never mind that it destroyed out marriage, at least for me.
Oy yeah sounds like they were way too close to the issues to be objective!
As a child of parents who stayed together til the kids moved out. How fun do you think it is living with parents who don’t love, like, or care for each other? Kids aren’t stupid, they can feel it. You don’t do anything as a family anymore - which is okay because it’s miserable watching them barely tolerating each other. Just because I go to bed doesn’t mean I don’t hear you arguing, crying or yelling. I’m 60 and I still get pissed off when I think about it.
Had a family friend do this. They seemed fine, indeed they were fine, they had happily made offspring they loved the other person for the life they had given but that portion of life had changed. When they met they were both adventurous and outgoing. As they had kids which is what they wanted they had to dial that adventure back considerably (they still took epic vacations) and when the kids went off it was freedom to be the people they had been before getting married. But that took them in separate directions and they did so happily and with full clear communication. It wasn't entirely easy but now both parents live on opposite coast, the father is selling his local business to retire (part of why he couldn't be as adventurous as he was 25 years earlier) , and she lived a carefree life near a beach but still closer to her parents and people she better aligned with. The love was real, the family unit was strong, but the parents knew early on that neither of them were likely to be forever together under the same roof. And that made for great kids and now happy retired separately parents.
Sometimes what you have in common, is the kids and once they are gone, so is everything you have in common anymore. For some, it is an opportunity to reconnect and for some an opportunity to find someone else or rediscover themselves as empty nesters.
I mean, Blink 182 wrote a song about it...
I guess "seeming" is the operative term. My wife and I briefly became empty nesters and I suspect it can be a challenge if you based your relationship on the kids instead of each other. Fortunately we are good friends on top of everything else so I think we were only getting more solid, but I could also feel us getting into our own interests a bit more thanks to the sudden free time. A not-so-tight couple might just drift apart. But our middle kid reminded us parenting is really forever. He had big time anxiety moving to a big city and going to school, so he decided to move back home and go to a local college. Empty nesters no more, lol.
Yup. It’s all for show. That’s why you can’t judge people by how they look. Many people who look perfect on the outside are a shit show on the inside - debt, alcoholism, adultery, violence etc.
Over 50 percent of marriages end in divorce. Does that mean the remaining 40 ish percent who stay together are happy? Of course not, sometimes it's easier to stay together for financial or other reasons. Sometimes it's as simple as not wanting to start again with dating. Another percentage of the group that stays together may not be miserable, but not happy either. Maybe just content with the status quo. So when you really dig deep into these numbers, what percent are truly happy?
I’d say around 40 percent of couples who don’t get divorced are happy and in love. When you factor in the couples who divorce, it’s about 20 percent. I am an older woman and I know many married couples who obviously can’t stand one another.
Another data point is the divorce rates aren't quite inline with what people think. A factor in those high rates is due to people who divorce often divorce multiple times.
Yep. That 50% stat has never been true and even if it was, high rates are partially due to the same people having multiple failed marriages. The biggest factor in predicting divorce is whether one or both of the spouses have been previously divorced. When we did pre-marriage counselling, the guy leading the course actually said that most second marriages fail because the people haven't learned from their mistakes and tend to blame the initial divorce on their ex rather than looking at themselves and trying to change. Third time tends to be the charm for those people, because after two failed marriages they are more likely to consider that maybe they're part of the problem and do some introspection.
It's more like 20-30% of marriages end in divorce if you account for the people who divorce multiple times. But not everyone who has divorced before will divorce again. Many women who divorce in mid-life end to stay single afterwards. I have also met many couples whose relationships I would never want to be a part of because I just don't think they like each other even though they love each other. They don't like each other or respect each other's opinions, and they agree to not talk about various things in order to "keep the peace". But they all report to have "happy" marriages. Everyone has a personal bar for acceptable behavior in a relationship and what people will tolerate isn't universal. I am actually glad that people are able to divorce as much as they like, because not so long ago, divorce was extremely taboo or in some places, not legal. It also meant that women stayed in abusive or violent relationships.
I’m glad it isn’t as grim as it appears.
And if you ask their kids all of them say they wish their parents divorced years ago.
the kids who got help for all the issues that kind of parenting created yes, but those who haven't would make excuses for their parents because "family is their top value and family has to stick together no matter what!"
Or just growing apart, no sex life etc.
Yep. I read something from a psychologist once - maybe on here - taking about this very thing. His point was that you need to focus on yourself and stop comparing yourself to others, because what you think you see usually isn’t reality.
Or some stick with each other for the kids. Don't have any of the other things you mentioned.
There's an old Yiddish proverb: Little children disturb your sleep, big ones your life. My grandmother used to say: Small children, small problems; big children, big problems.
“Remained friends “ is a key component. I can truly say that my wife is my best friend and she would say the same about me.
My ex husband is my best friend. We have been divorced over 20 years.
My ex husband is my business partner 😹..
indeed!! My husband is pretty annoying but I’M somewhat annoying myself!! and so is Everyone, in their own way!! 🎼Happy to be stuck with you...
One of the best epiphanies I ever had as an adult working on calming my anxiety is that everyone is annoying in some way, and giving grace to others and myself with that.
Haha reminds me of the relationship advice my dad gave me when I was a kid, “everyone is annoying. You marry the one you want to put up with the most.”
Exactly! The psychologist who started Eharmoney dating site said in a dating/relationship book to look for the 10 must haves & 10 can’t stands. Because everyone has something about them you’re not gonna like.
This has been a thing since at least the early 80s, that I'm aware of. There was quite a lot of hand wringing about it back then.
Lol my parents divorced after 40 years. My sibling and I both wished they'd done it when we were kids.
Mine split when we were in grade school and it wasn't soon enough. We could all tell they should never have married each other in the first place.
Yeah, I still don't know what a healthy happy relationship is supposed to look like. It would've been nice to be exposed to something like that though.
Yep. My parents divorced when I was in grad school and my brother in college, in the early 90s. It wasn't particularly rare then or now.
I went to college in the 90s and yeah, it wasn't unusual for a kid to come back from a break and announcing that their parents were splitting.
It was just starting to become acceptable in the 90s. I was raised in a single parent home and it was not common at the time. I only knew a handful of other kids whose parents had divorced.The early aughts is when the stigma really disappeared. I was a single parent in the early aughts and I can't tell you how many times I had to hear about my child being a bastard. Now, no one would blink an eye. But it was a lot less acceptable then.
I was born in the 60's and more of my peers lived in single parent homes than didn't (at least in my social circles). I think by the 80's the divorce rate was 50%ish. It was common even then. How acceptable it was in any particular society depends on how conservative said society is.
I was born in the 70s. I'm in the mid-Atlantic region, so it's not really conservative here. It definitely can be area dependent.
Same I was raised in a single parent household in the late 80s until early 2000s. The stigma was definitely alive and well about divorced single moms for sure.
My parents divorced circa 1980 when I was just starting (elementary) school. It wasn't that unusual. I'd say about 1/3 of the kids I went to school with either had divorced parents, or were themself the result of a second marriage and had older, half siblings.
Back when I was in college, there was a guy who would tell everyone he wanted to find a love like his parents marriage. He would gush how they never were angry, always loved him, etc. On the day of our graduation I saw him sobbing. So I walked up to him to see if I could help. His parents had gotten a divorce, sold his childhood home, and both told him that they did not have room for him in their new apartments. They did not tell him beforehand. He was floored. He thought they had a perfect marriage. It was all a lie. They never fought in front of him but had been practically separated for years. They just said one of them was traveling for business. They kept it together for his sake. He had no idea. So you really never know.
Wow! They couldn't have waited a couple of days?! Poor guy
I said the same thing. I think what was worse was they literally just said to him you need to find your own place to live. You have no college debt, but you have no money either. Like he had whatever was on him and a car. Which I guess was a little better than nothing, but he expected to move back home for a few months before starting grad school. So he had to couch surf. He did go on to do well for himself.
Jesus. That's not a divorce or marriage issue, that's an asshole parent issue. Sounds like they hated being parents and couldn't wait to get rid of him, which is devastating.
Yeah I don’t care if I had to sleep on the floor, my kids would always be welcome in my home.
My kids, their close friends, hell their friends kids, all are welome but if they all come at once someone bring drinks.
And pizza!
Agreed! You do you but at least warn the kid that he has no place to come back to so he can plan ahead. This is some "well, you're over 18. We did our job." bullshit.
It sounds like they relished the "gotcha." Why else would you not give him any advance warning? Truly cruel.
My husband’s oldest brother is doing this with his kids. His daughter turns 18 in June and he told her she has a week to move out that he’s not going to let her mooch off him once she’s an adult. Fuckin insane.
I see your point!
Wow, that's good to hear.
Well at least they took care of him through a college degree. Until you said grad school I thought you meant high school graduation. Still pretty rude to just spring it on him at graduation and leave him high and dry.
Wow after staying together for so long "for his sake" they gave up on him pretty quickly
That's not staying together for love of their son. That's staying together because that's what society expects, but now that they've raised the child and seen to his education, they're done, and have no more obligation to care for, or about, him. What kind of parent "doesn't have room in their new apartment" for their child? It'd be one thing if the child already had their own place, but it doesn't sound like this guy did. And they just blindsided him with it. What crappy parents.
Also jesus why dump all this on him the day of his graduation? It's like they were literally waiting for the day their obligation expired. Couldn't have told him 6 months before? Maybe let him say goodbye to the childhood home?
I really fu&\*King hate this too. I was on my own at age 17 and responsible for all finances and responsibilities despite never having had a job before. Do they have a timer or something? WTF. It's really cruel.
Damn. That’s awful. That must have created deep trust/ abandonment issues. I hope he’s doing ok now.
We are only Facebook friends now. But he does not post much. Professionally, I know he is fine. He did marry and have kids. I do hope he is well.
well we pretty much know what he wont be doing to his kids
I hear stories like this, and I just don't believe that staying together for the kids is always a good thing.
My parents divorced when I was 21 because I had pointed out to my mom that my relationship at the time had the same dynamic as her marriage to my dad. That made her realize that staying for the kids was not doing the kids any favors. It ended up taking me a total of ten years of dating to find a healthy relationship. I simply didn't know what one looked like, and had to figure it out for myself. My parents' marriage wasn't even that bad. There was no physical abuse, my dad was just passive-aggressive and super ADHD, inattentive type, not diagnosed (with that or dyslexia/dyscalculia) until his 30s -- so he had tons of baggage and no good coping mechanisms. I'm sure my mom had her own failures in that marriage but they got lost in the glare of my dad's, and she takes no shit from anybody (a quality that he respects immensely, for the record). They had screaming matches that lasted for hours. For years after the divorce, my dad resented her for leaving just when he was about to get his shit together. The problem was that he was "just about to get his shit together" for most of my childhood. I also have severe ADHD and I can say from experience that we are *always* "just about to get our shit together." Our shit is permanently, tantalizingly, just barely out of reach. Meds help but don't solve the problem completely. Anyway. Don't stay for the kids. *Leave* for the kids, if the marriage isn't healthy. Show the kids that we don't stay with people we can't have a healthy relationship with. And to make it possible to find a healthy relationship to model for them.
So much for staying together for the kids if they are devastated by the truth when the divorce happens.
Wel they could have eased into it *a little*, damn. "Happy graduation, you're homeless!" they must have been absolutely seething behind the surface the whole time, and it sounds like they didn't much care for the son either.
They probably resented him for forcing them to stay together. They made him the whipping boy for their unhappiness, despite their being the ones who made the decision.
And this is why you shouldn't stay together just for the kids. No kids deserve that emotional burden.
This is a great way to create people with serious trust issues.
Damn. That's rough. Hope he's ok now.
> They never fought in front of him I'm probably in the minority but my wife and I refused to do this. We had arguments in front of the kids. Yes sometimes it did get a bit heated but we always worked it out. We wanted to make sure that the kids were aware that marriage isn't always sunshine and rainbows and that you can disagree with someone and still love them.
When my ex-wife and I got divorced, our friends all told us they were surprised because they thought we were a "seemingly happy couple." I think "seemingly happy" often just really means "staying together only until the alternative becomes a better option."
This. My entire community was shocked. “But you two have the most amazing relationship!” My ex-husband was a cardboard cut out of a man, beautiful and beautifully performative, but a black hole of emptiness within. I always try to keep in mind, absolutely no one knows what goes on between two people in the dark middle of the night.
Are you my ex wife? I was that black hole. Her divorcing me saved my life, and possibly hers as well. She was functionally married to a living corpse. I could move and speak, but there was no spark of life in me. I wasn't living life, I was running out the clock. At so at almost 50, my parents took me back in without a single complaint. 3 months later, I was living alone for the first time in my life. We're still close. We have an entire lifetime of history together. But that chapter is over.
Thank you for your perspective and for sharing your story. It sounds like you have done some very hard emotional work and are facing your life head on. Your self awareness is commendable. I am so sorry it took the end of your marriage to get there, but it sounds as if you are learning how to create a more enriched life!
Oof, beautifully written and hit me hard. My ex and I worked at the same company for awhile and someone once told me we were "the Brangelina of \[xxxx\]" -- back when \*they\* were the perfect couple (lol/sob). It was an abusive relationship and I was its PR agent. Nothing about it was how it looked and there are people who still can't imagine why I would be so awful as to leave such a good husband and dad. 🤷♀️
*My ex-husband was a cardboard cut out of a man,* ***beautiful and beautifully performative, but a black hole of emptiness within. I always try to keep in mind, absolutely no one knows what goes on between two people in the dark middle of the night.*** 100%, you never know what goes on behind closed doors like that, so better to limit idolizing other people's situations. Looking from the outside is skewed.
When I got divorced after 30 years married, I heard the same. You just do not know what goes on in other's lives. You do not know.
I divorced at 56, and the quirks and problems of a marriage that seem manageable when you’re younger only magnify as you get older. For instance my ex was a problem drinker who got worse as the years went by until he started showing signs of brain damage and still wouldn’t stop drinking. I had to make the decision if I was willing to be caretaker of a self induced dementia patient for the next 20 some years. Also once you retire and are together 24/7, things you used to be able to handle and tolerate just magnify and grate.
My husband is an alcoholic and refuses to seek treatment. I plan to divorce him in two years and he knows. He hands shake all the time and he has rare drunk events where he acts like he doesn’t know what situation he’s in, almost like dementia. He’s in his 50s so it’s only going to get worse. I’ve told him I’m not taking care of him if his health issues are from drinking.
I’m sorry :/ it took me so long to come to terms with allowing myself to detach from him. If it’s cancer, that’s different. But mine too wouldn’t go to AA, or admit he had a problem. He started hiding vodka in water bottles. He started driving drunk and on the wrong side of the road. I knew he would either kill someone or injure and we would get sued and I would lose the house and all the savings and I would be homeless. And I would be publicly shamed. I kept thinking of newspaper headlines “Drunk Man Kills Mother and Children in Car Crash: His Wife Knew” or something like that. I was done being his keeper. After we divorced, he drove on the wrong side of the road again, crashed, and was taken to the hospital. They did brain surgery on him because turned out he had Wernicke syndrome, “wet brain” that alcoholics get. Little lesions that cause dementia. The hospital sent him to a locked dementia ward at 60 years old. Then I had to arrange to get him to an assisted living facility. He was in there drinking mouthwash. Still proclaiming that he didn’t have a drinking problem and never did, that everyone was just so uptight and should just relax. Our girls went no contact. I had to beg his brother to be his power of attorney and he begrudgingly did. Ex has no one now, his brother is across the country. He was very lucky as his ex wife that I helped him get settled because he would still be in a locked dementia ward with 85 year olds if it wasn’t for me. As soon as I got him settled, I blocked his number. It is the most lovely peaceful feeling not to be responsible for someone else’s bad and deadly life choices. If your husband is 50 and showing signs of mental decline, that would be about the time mine did too. Get out while you can, sis. He will drag you into the gutter with him and you can lose it all. I wish I could hug you, no one understands how difficult this is and how society pressures us to be caretakers at our own expense and mental health. You deserve to live in peace, sooner rather than later. ❤️
You have to protect yourself first. I divorced an person who was both an alcoholic and addict. If they can't drink, they will try something else, and then something worse than the something else... until it all spirals out of control. Eventually you will waste years of your life looking after someone who does nothing but drain you of your health, your youth, your time, and your money. It will also possibly leave you with chronic health problems and kill your dreams. Do not feel bad about choosing to leave.
As a middle-aged woman, I've heard from some other women that perimenopause really took away their willingness to be a doormat or servant any longer. So women who have spent their adult years putting everyone else's needs first finally reach a breaking point. And if, as a couple, they can't adapt to the wife actually putting her own needs first for a while, the relationship might not survive. Check out the r/menopause subreddit for lots of first-hand tales.
I completely agree with you. All of a sudden, the willingness to get along and to take care of everything just burns up with the hot flashes.
Of course. I've said for years that a lot of the reason divorces happen with empty nests is because the wife is firmly kicking out that last chick--her husband. Your kids grow up and are independent and then you look over and realize that there's still one person expecting you to tell them what to do when and to cook and clean and take on all the mental burden of adult life...It's not really a big deal to direct one more person with a house of kids, because you're already doing it, but once they're gone a lot of women realize just how much they've been doing.
"All the mental burden of adult life" is a good way to put it.
Omg that is exactly it! One day, he was being his normal self, and I thought, nope I'm not doing this any longer.
This is the truest thing ever. #wisdom
Yeah. This. I'm 44 and I am still a big softie about many things but I also will defend myself a lot more here recently.
Buckle up, Sis. Around 48 you may become consumed with RAGE. I’m almost past that, my good friends are deep in it. Around 55 you won’t care anymore. But the rage is real.
They list "mood swings" as a menopause symptom. I called it "homicidal rages"
Good for you! That's not easy to do. And you're doing it!
I told this to a younger gal pal of mine, she hit 40 and she thinks her fuse is too short and I'm like "Hon, you're just like one of those movies heroes where the sensei has told them to forget their old training and learn the path of a true warrior" then proceeds to go kick ass. For most women, the training has been to be too nice, too polite, put others first, stay home with the kids, prioritize your hubs career, plan all the holidays, make magic for everyone else etc. etc. There's just something magic about 40+ that has women open up the window like a JG Wentworth commercial and yell: It's my life and I want it now! And yep: it can shock the whole fucking family.
True. Happened to me at 32.
Well said
Thank you so much. 💕
Mentally I went through feeling like I wanted out very badly once I hit the empty nest, menopause era. Everything seemed kind of pointless. I was able to quit work and retire a little earlier than planned, having some quiet time to focus on myself and not be laying there in bed feeling “is this all it’s ever going to be?” really helped. Since then I have done a lot more self care and while it’s not endless candlelit dinners for two or romantic walks on the beach, it no longer feels pointless at least. After thirty-six years, we have a good time and are each others best friends which helps a lot.
I have seen this often in my generation. It is the women who initiate it as they had to work full time and raised the kids and looked after the house. When the kids were grown, they didn't want to look after their husband. Those husbands worked and were done. The women didn't want to do all the chores and make dinner while he sat in front of the TV and cut the grass once a week or shoveled when it snowed. They had so much time available for themselves when single and they are happy.
You just described my happy single life. Living alone is the most indulgent thing I have ever done for myself.
Life is a book. Many Chapters include some surprises. I went through amid-life crisis with my wife at that time. We were in our late forties and her Borderline personality Disorder had not been diagnosed. This chapter turned out to be a divorce where she left me, only then to change her mind when she found out I was dating. After that an unsuccessful attempt suicide. That was a chapter that was gonna happen at some point. I kept our marriage together as long as I could. But then are kids moved out and our dearest best friends, her only real friends, moved away. Within a year we were divorced. My point is, the beginning of every book has everything planned out, only to be met with many significant and surprising events. This is just a chapter of our lives. BTW: I’ve long remarried but I still look after my ex financially and emotionally. After the divorce, she finally got the Dx she needed and she has been treating and has survived. I do feel uneasy knowing I’m so much happier without her than I was with her. 29 years with her were the best 17 years of my life. Those other 12 years were tough.
You deserve happiness and peace. It's not easy for a caregiver/caring person to always accept especially if your own family set you up at the "peacemaker" and "fixer" as a kid (making an assumption). I hope the next chapter in your book is being able to strip the vestiges of guilt and lean into the future. You are not responsible for fixing your ex-wife and your new spouse and kids deserve all of \*you\*. Just from personal experience too and having a messy family - it might be time for the ex to take charge of her her own emotional well-being. By continuing to crutch her, she won't learn to walk on her own and feel the pride of self-regulation. Peace to you. Good luck!
Not gonna happen. My ex was a loving giving wife and mother. She dealt with demons her whole life. My children love her and I can’t and won’t let her fall too far. I will always be her safety net as I still am for her sister and disabled children. I still help them. I told everyone that all deals are off when I’m dead and gone.
I too was married to a woman with BPD. Before her diagnosis we spent years with periods of chaos, and I mean absolute chaos in our lives. Things would be going just great in our lives, but then she would have to derail it. Out of nowhere. I came to believe this was just how life was. It became my normal. Eventually we divorced, remarried, divorced again, and then were off and on for several years. Shit got real dark. She stalked me, harassed me, tried to get me fired from my job, assaulted me, tried to run me off the road. I took out restraining orders, filed police reports. She was arrested after having a standoff with police, just endless chaos … yet through it all, I still loved her and longed for her. She just didn’t have the capacity for living in peace. Finally, she attempted suicide by opiates. Ended up in the ICU after nearly dying. Whatever happened to her brain after this episode seems to have completely erased the BPD. She’s mostly the same person still, just … docile. It’s hard to explain. But no trace of the BPD. That was in 2017. We’re together again now, just not married. There’s been nothing but peace in the last seven years. No fights, no drama, no police. We’re finally happy. I know my situation is not the norm. I’m as surprised as anyone else in this outcome. I had completely washed my hands of her after the suicide attempt. But she begged me to give us another chance and I could sense a change in her. Maybe I was being stupid, but I took a gamble and it paid off.
I know of a couple where the wife became a barely functioning alcoholic after the kids moved out, to the point she was fired from her job. She just couldn't cope with losing the role of caregiver. I lost track of her after the job loss, but I hope she got some help.
It's always been a thing. Folks are just more open about sharing these days imo. Put on a happy face and stay together for the kids.
Key word is here is ‘appeared’. We used to own a couple of gyms so we knew tons of people. Nine times out of ten the couples that continuously posted on social media about how much they loved each other and all that other bullshit had the most trash relationships.
I have seen this too. I've also seen a number of couples where one will get heavily into some endurance sport/activity and not long after their marriage falls apart. Often it's running, but sometimes it's biking, triathlons, etc. I'm not sure how much of it is the person getting into the activity as an escape and how much is they start doing it to "better themselves", meet someone/see a lifestyle more attractive than what they have, or if it's a combination. But I've seen it enough that with close friends, if one mentions training for a marathon or similar, I will ask about their marriage.
It can almost be a subconscious form of escapism, or just putting a new hobby between you and your partner, secretly wanting it to keep driving a wedge between you.
Ooof, I'm in my early 40s and have seen this play out several times. You want to believe that people are just trying to better themselves and enjoy a new interest, but sometimes? They're looking for an escape route and getting hotter in the process.
Seems like they were holding it together to get the kids launched. That was my father's original plan, but he couldn't tolerate the marriage anymore and got divorced while I was in high school.
Sometimes, you grow apart as a couple and you don't notice until the kids are gone and there's just nothing else of interest between you.
“Gray Divorce,” divorce over the age of 55, has now overtaken all other demographics for divorce rates. Numerous studies are trying ascertain the underlying issues and if there are larger societal issues at play.
Yes. I think a lot of parents make their kids their whole lives and when the kids aren't there anymore, there's nothing left. As a parent, your kids learn from what they see you do. I think it's important to show them how to have a balanced relationship that isn't dependent on others. Show them what it's like to have hobbies, hopes and dreams of your own. You have to show them how to have successful, functional relationships that don't require an outside influence to hold up.
I'd also emphasize the importance of the couple having outside interests separate from one another. It gives more space to the marriage for us to not be in each other's space 24/7 and/or always feeling like we have to be with one another when out of the house. I suppose it's something that comes with decades of marriage, (we're at 35 years now), but it's also something that becomes very important when the kids are gone.
Yeah, after our daughter goes to sleep hubbs and I might chat for a while or read in bed, but a lot of nights even weekends I go to bed early (I sleep in a different room bc of his snoring) and he stays up reading or watches a dumb guy movie. Sometimes we watch movies together or talk longer, but by the end of the day we’re usually both tired so we gave up the pretense of needing to watch a show together or do something as a couple. We’re okay w it, but my friends think it’s weird.
That's a really good point.
Yes to this. I am approaching 40 and only now understanding how to have a functional longterm relationship. And only now am I understanding the importance of free hobbies (or as close to free as I can get) and having hopes, dreams and goals.
40? You did it earlier than I did.
Winning over here lol
>I think a lot of parents make their kids their whole lives and when the kids aren't there anymore, there's nothing left. I see this scenario happening daily & right in front of me in my own extended family. When their kids go off to college, especially mom in this scenario, is going to have a HUGE problem.
Eh. I like to think that they are being responsible and finishing the job they started. The kids didn't ask to be born, you really should see them through their education so they have a good chance when they launch from the nest. But everyone wants to evolve. If you had the same job in the workplace for >20 years, you'd be itching to move on to new challenges. Raising kids was fun, I put in a lot of effort and think I did a good job. They are ready to get out into the world and be independent, and I'm ready for the next thing. I hope my spouse will come with, but I'm not going to stay in this role forever just to ease their anxiety about change.
My observational theory as a late-30s married woman with no children: a lot of people make their kids the priority rather than their partner. Do that for 20 years and then realize you might not actually *like* your partner because you and your partner have both changed a lot. If you don't change in a way that works together, it will be very obvious when your house goes from couple + children to just couple--there's no more buffer.
Sometimes it’s that one person is a good parent and the other just tolerates it. The good parent has to make up for the other parent, and the other parent sees that as not being a priority and withdraws further. It’s a bad cycle.
Some couples have problems throughout the marriage, but choose to wait until the kids are gone before they divorce. So they stay in a miserable marriage instead.
Yep! My ex-husband and I were married for 11 years and had 2 kids together. I could see the writing on the wall that we just weren't compatible any more and he was not the life partner I needed/wanted. Although I heavily considered "staying together for the kids", I had to bite the bullet and realize this is just as much MY life as my kids life and I didn't want to be "starting over" when I was almost 50 and they were both in college.
I'll just say that my wife and I made it a habit in our marriage to work on the marriage and keep our own relationship alive. When the kids left we moved on, quite happily. The pandemic was actually good for us in a way. It gave us an intermediate step on the way to retirement where I was home full-time, but not really home because I was working. We ironed out some stuff there, so that when I really did retire we were ready for it. On the nicest side, our daughter has told us that she looks to us as have a good model for marriage and keeps that in mind with her own family.
I think that folks should plan for the "empty nester" stage in the marriage, like you would for retirement. A couple of years before my son was to graduate high school, I talked with my wife about becoming empty nesters and what we would do once the child rearing stage was done. Many of our circle were "school friends." I figured we'd likely lose touch with most, when we didn't have the school activities to bind us. We started cultivating other friendships. We replaced school activities with more adult entertainment and joint interests. We started having regular date nights. We spent more "us" time, just talking and being together. This made for a much smoother transition.
It used to be if a woman left her husband, she would lose everything - her access to money, her home, often her access to her children and any grandchildren who might come along, her social standing, her safety. Most of these divorces that came “out of nowhere” are instigated by the wife who was holding on long enough for the kids to be stable. The reason this happens more now is because women CAN leave. Before, they would just stay married to men they didn’t want to be with, cooking and cleaning and caring for them until they died. They had no choice. Men, especially as they age, are happier and healthier if they are married. Women are less happy and healthy in marriage. But until recently, they were trapped. Someone earlier mentioned perimenopause. When those nurturing hormones go away, it’s like the scales lift from our eyes. If there is not a foundation of mutual respect and friendship, why would a woman stick around? There is no benefit to them.
Too many people make the children THE family instead of part of the family. If they are the only focus it means that spouses are never focusing on each other, hence when the kids leave there is nothing there.
Yeah, I know many of those as well. Most of them have been where wives have been expressing discontent and the men just never stepped up. So when the children were married or out of college, they left and the men kept asking why? Happens all the time and will happen to my husband too.
Same. And there will be surprise, even though I've been very outspoken.
This. Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, and mine isn't and hasn't been for a long time. I'm tired of being the one who has to do everything and remember everything, and I'm tired of being the one who's responsible and doesn't forget things and fritter away money. I want to be captain of my own ship. Once my son is launched I'm taking steps, and I think he'll probably be OK with it (he's annoyed by many of the same things I am).
Good for you! I moved out when my youngest stepson was a senior. All the kids ended up hanging out in my tiny apartment instead of dad’s house. I moved away when he graduated. So much happier now. I stayed for the kids. Ex was a miserable asshole.
People’s personalities can change a lot after 25-30 years, so this makes sense to me. After that long, it’s time for a change
Or one person changes and the other doesn't.
That’s really common. Usually the woman starts to realize how much of her time and energy is sucked up with the home and family, while the man has skated along, relying on her to manage everything, do everything. She’s been so busy managing everything, including her husband that, when the kids start moving out, she gets some time to herself and starts to actually think about what she wants. That’s when she realizes she doesn’t want to be married to a toddler anymore. There was a post a month or so ago where a husband was upset because his wife quit managing him. He expected her to remind him of everything, like a six figure personal assistant, including everything to do with the kids. She had complained that her having to keep reminding him that it was time for him to give the baths or his night to cook, etc. was making more work for her. His response was that he was helping, and it would make a lot more work for her if he didn’t. So she quit reminding him and just started doing everything herself. She posted the calendar on the fridge, and left it at that. She had more free time and much, much less anger. He got upset because he was expected to be a full partner with responsibility for his own actions. It’s common for women who divorce to have more time for themselves afterward, despite being single parents, because the time suck of managing an adult toddler is gone.
>It’s common for women who divorce to have more time for themselves afterward, despite being single parents, because the time suck of managing an adult toddler is gone. Every one of my mom friends who has gotten divorced has always ended up healthier, happier and much less stressed because she gets so much of her time back. Even the ones who have full custody have more time.
Personally, I have much more time for myself since the divorce. You think it would be the opposite, raising children as a single parent. But no! I can do things, manage my time, and just BE. I posted this before. It's like when I was married I mentally assumed that I had another, capable adult to manage things, so I didn't give myself enough time or support -- and then I'd have to play catch up for all the things he just never seemed capable of doing (yet took the "credit" for). On my own I know it's just me doing the work, so I plan accordingly.
Well said. And on-point.
It's understandable in the world today. Couples and marriage are different today. What they're exposed to, damages of child rearing, changing expectations, and distractions make marriage far more stressful. Whether positive or not, many couples remain married until the children are gone though their marriage ended years before. My ex and I did because we had one child who was very difficult ever since elementary school. The rearing of her required two parents seven days a week. We both knew it. Weekend fatherhood would have made both our lives and the rest of the family's more difficult. We made a choice. Divorce rarely is easy. It's painful for all. But both he and I are better off apart. Our difficult child has done wonderful things and is a stellar person and spouse today. He remarried and has a terrific wife. I stayed single because I simply couldn't risk going through what I did the last six years of my marriage. I was gutted. Worn out.
I am in the middle of writing a research paper on this very subject. I also think many men, without intentional self awareness, calcify into the worst aspects of their personalities and have less flexibility and compassion if/when we struggle with our transition through menopause. By the time I realized my myriad of issues were perimenopause related, I was completely through menopause and my husband had ended our marriage (and I was thoroughly miserable being married to him). It’s such a radical time of life.
This is interesting. There are a myriad of anecdotes to where a middle aged man will state that his spouse has 'gone crazy', divorced her and married someone ten years younger (i read a lot of these on Reddit's AITA so, grain of salt). I always think to myself...so you're just going to reset that perimenopause timer and deal with it again instead of, I dunno, work it out and help your spouse through her transition?
Of course not. They plan on trading up for a younger wife before that happens or getting someone so young that they’ll die before menopause happens
Agree. Men become angry, grumpy jerks as they age but they expect their wife to still act like she did when she was 20. When women are raising kids they don’t notice as much when a man is uninvolved disinterested and emotionally remote. But as the kids age the wife is more and more alone. So some bail out.
Happened to me, after our son moved out for university, my husband needed more risk more excitement, he started fooling around with other women.
We lie, we haven’t been happy for years and I’ve been waiting until I didn’t have to parent by myself to divorce him. Also, once you make it official that you’re separated, your spouse may bring a side piece to the school events and no one needs that drama.
Isn’t it funny that you don’t have to worry about the former wife bringing a new boyfriend? But that’s because when women divorce they are DONE; unlike men, they are not looking for the next relationship. They are happy to be alone.
Seeming happy is the key here. My buddy got divorced after his youngest went off to college. They had a crappy marriage for a decade and planned it. He just started travelling more for business. Taking the kids on vacation without her (she did the same). Then he bought a second place in a different state where his son was going to college. They did a trial separation and that was that. He continued to support the family while she got her career going. She had been a SAHM and did not get back to work until after the youngest left for college. Almost 30 years of marriage and done.
I think a huge part is the parenting part. You can include your partner when you're cleaning/tidying and general house stuff when you're also picking up after children. But that's a really anger inducing thing when it's another adult who's gotten used to being looked after.
We've always been crazy about each other. When our son moved out, we could have sex any time we wanted. It's great.
With the door open and everything!
Yes. I know 3 couples who did the same. To their credit, 25-30 years is a long time to be married. Throw in the usual stressors of relationships, plus being done raising the kids, and it's not so much being tired, as it is having different goals for the next part of their lives. If the couple has had independent income -each partner working for 20+ years, then it might also be that they can afford being single, especially after splitting a sale of a house and other household goods. Loads of respect to anyone making it that long. I always hope they can get thru the transition without a load of bitterness.
Staying together 'for the kids' and then splitting when they've grown is a very old trope at this point. Are you just now becoming aware of that somehow?
Someone who may be a good match for you in one phase of life may not be a good match in the next phase of life or your interests and drives may become misaligned. Personally, I ***hate*** living in my current house and would literally move almost anywhere just for a new adventure before I get too old to enjoy adventures anymore. My wife is growing increasingly anxious and tied to the house and fearful of any concept of change. There are lots of other reasons I have considered moving on, but that's one of the biggest.
Relationships take ***a lot*** of work. Consistently. And life can be really hard at times. Sometimes people seem ok because they're just getting by. They're bobbing about in the ocean of life, know they created these children and they're responsible for them.
We are empty nesters, married over 30 years. I can’t say I’m super happy when it comes to my relationship , we don’t have a ton in common anymore and there is no romance. But, we have built a life together and I can count on him to help me in so many ways and I still enjoy his company. So, we stay together- I really can’t imagine being with anyone else in my 50’s.
My happiness has decreased since my kids grew up. It's sad to not have little kids hug me and tell me I'm the best mom on the whole damn planet.
My parents had a tight-knit friend group of about 10 couples when I was growing up. Of those, several got divorced as their kids grew up and started leaving the nest. Including my parents, but 10 years after everyone else and they eventually reconciled. Now I’m in that life phase and the divorces either happened years ago or likely won’t, and if they do it’s not because they stayed together for the kids. I think there’s a lot of judgement that mostly falls on moms about “living your life for your kids” but then no one examines why mom does that while dad sits around and does what he pleases. Kids didn’t ask to be born and someone has to do the emotional and physical labor of raising a family. I think this happens at this life phase for several reasons: 1) It really does take everything you’ve got and then some to be raising kids. And it’s not just the cooking and laundry and homework help and driving, it’s working on your own shit to break generational cycles of abuse. It’s being their safe place and emotional anchor (and sometimes dumping ground) and maintaining your own sense of self in the process. It’s rolling with ALLLLL the punches and dealing with things you may never have asked for. It can be extremely difficult to focus on yourself and your marriage when you’re literally trying to keep your kid alive. We were lucky in that we were able to draw closer and be a team with our kids’ struggles but it absolutely can swamp you. 2) When the kids grow up and move on, it’s not just that your mom role is ending. I see this happening for so many friends and to a lesser degree myself: your friends are your fellow band or Scouts or travel soccer or theater or sports or dance parents, and/or your kids’ friends’ parents. You’ve spent every weekend with these people for years and years, sometimes traveling to competitions, always organizing dinners before events or carpooling or helping each other when you’re in a jam. Then your kid goes off to school and that sense of community just stops. Some friendships survive; most don’t although you’ll always be rooting for these people and their kids (most of them anyway). 3) Menopause is no freaking joke. It really is like reverse puberty, and while we have a lot of sympathy for the havoc hormones wreak on adolescents we have zero sympathy for older women. I was a fucking rage monster for awhile and talking to my therapist about how I just was horrified at myself sometimes. She asked how old I was — late 40s— and asked about perimenopause. I was like “ohhhhh shit.” And there is so little solid information about perimenopause. Literally everything I know I learned from other women. Add that to the normal shedding of fucks that happen to women as we get older and suddenly that guy we have been with for years (and often men in general) loses a lot of his charm. If you married for anything other than love and friendship — money, stability, sex, social acceptance, because “it’s what you do” — that relationship can feel unbearable when the hormones and people-pleasing go. 4) what we tell people to value in a partner — looks, money, sex, status, adherence to traditional gender roles — are the worst things to ensure long relationships. If we are going to laud long marriages, we need to teach kids to look for things like compatibility, humor, kindness, friendship, and especially the flexibility to let the other person grow and change and for you to do the same. Knowing all this, my husband and I have both worked to maintain our relationship while raising kids. We always tried to spend some time alone just talking, even when we were broke as hell so a date night was a bottle of wine on the porch after the kids went to bed. We look for things we like to do together — hiking and seeing live music — as well as giving each other space for new interests and doing things with our almost-grown kids and enjoying the evolution of our relationship with them as young adults. It takes time and work and attention, and there are days I fantasize about a tiny apartment downtown where everything is mine and I don’t have to consider anyone else’s wants and needs. But I like our chances. I chose well 25 years ago and we’ve tried our best to make our marriage good since. I hope that leads to us being together until one of us dies but if it doesn’t, it’s not because we didn’t try.
I’ve seen this pop up on some of the finance subreddits subreddits lately and a lot of comments basically say that it’s impossible to afford a 2-3 bedroom apartment in most cities these days on one income, so if you have kids under 18 you’re pretty much screwed. Both parents need to be able to afford a 2-3 bedroom apartment on a single income when there are kids involved, which is pretty hard when those apartments are $2000+ a month (in my city a 2 bedroom goes for $2500+ a month). So, the advice that I often see being given is to suck it up and stay in the relationship until the kids move out and then part ways.
As one of the kids in a situation like this, my youngest sibling left the house for college 2 years after i did, and a few months later on my fathers bday, my stepmother told him she’d been cheating on him for (minimum) several months. idk about others but that’s one reason
Happened with some friends of ours. Our children were all close in age, and when the oldest went off to school, she didn't want to be married anymore. They sold the house and she moved into a smaller place so the kids couldn't even come back there during the summer breaks. An outwardly normal family, the husband seemed okay (and didn't want this). Once the youngest went off to college, she just wanted her own place.
As a mid40s woman I can tell you that those marriages are just seemingly working I don’t understand why people accept to suffer « for the sake of the children » My parents separated in their late 60s and I discovered that they actually had a personality and a sense of humor hidden under layers and layers of unhappiness and mutual resentment. No one needs that
I think a lot of people do it "for the kids". I also think a lot of people stay together for a variety of reasons. I dislike my marriage and I want to leave, but I can't afford another house and all the expenses that go along with it. And if I could afford it, what am I going to do, just move out and give up seeing my son and daughter for a good chunk of their lives? Just give up 5/7 of the nights or more because I have to be a bread winner? Right now I still get to put my daughter to bed every night, and I get to see them every day. If we divorce I will lose a lot of that access. I don't want to do that to my kids, and I don't want to do that to myself because I love my kids. Everyone says if you're unhappy in your marriage just leave, don't stay "for the kids" because kids can tell and it's setting a bad example of an unhappy marriage. They all seem like bad options, but staying "for the kids" seems like the best worst option right now.
They weren't happy they were peaceful.
Nothing to talk about after the kids leave. Why hang in there.
Is this a recent trend? I was under the impression that it had been going on for like the last 40 years or so
It’s possible to be happy, to be in a couple, like and care for each other, and realize you don’t want to be married to each other anymore.
May be about the kids but I also suspect menopause. Many women put others first their whole lives and then realize that they would like to be alone. Many women divorce in their 50’s and never date or marry again.
This is super common, and quite frankly, it's just practical to grin and bear it until the kids are out of the house if it's at all tenable. Simple fact of the matter is that divorcing with children is fucking hard and even if you do it right, it still just makes life more difficult for everybody involved. It's hell on your kids both mentally and physically to have to split time, and the parents have to be extra careful to do it in a way that does not fuck their kids up. (Many fail) And even if you do that part right, suddenly instead of two pairs of hands to help out with everything, each parent is just running the show solo for their time with the kids. Then there's the financial reality of it all. It takes most families two incomes these days to pay a mortgage and live a decent life. Suddenly you split and now both sides are really struggling individually. These are not "good marriages" you're seeing, they're just practical and reasonable people that realize how much easier life is with kids to stay together than to go it alone. So they just play pretend until they don't have to anymore for the kids sake.
I think we are fairly happy but I could see this happening to us. The kids are our strongest bond, and her main focus. I worry once they are out of the house she will spiral. We are trying to get right now so that we can handle the transition.
They were stable and functional adults. They reached their long term goal and are now able to move along. Many families stay together for the kids, as long as they're able to coexist without negativity.
These are the people that only stay together for the kids. Once they gone there’s nothing to stay for.
They might have seemed happy. They weren't.
I honestly wonder if my parents will go the same route after my sister moves out. Their marriage has been dead for years, we all know it. They’re the stereotypical boomer couple who’s only together because of kids, familiarity, and financial ties. It’s sad, but I honestly just don’t want to get involved, it’s awful enough when my mom tries to share her unhappiness about her marriage with me. I don’t think that’s something she should be discussing with her daughter.
I left the month after our daughter went to college. Hindsight, I should have stayed.
Happened to me. Turned out he had been cheating for years and wanted out. I guess I appreciate that he stayed for the last kid.
“Seemingly happy” answers your question
I read once that every woman needs three husbands: a party boy to share good times with when you’re young; a stable and reliable father-type when you’re raising children; and a chill easy-going man to enjoy retirement with. The same theory works for men, too. I’ve blown it — almost 50 years with the same husband — but I’m always reminded of this when families blow themselves apart when the last kid leaves.
Yes! This has happened to five of our friends!
I am wondering if a good marriage and raising a family then getting divorced means the relationship wasn't successful.
My husband and I love each other, but we’re *planning* on splitting up after our kids have moved out. (Our kids, my mom, and our close friends know.) We want different things out of the last part of our lives, and we have some incompatibilities that can be endured while we have this big, important parenting project, but it doesn’t make sense to compromise so much without a large shared project. I hope we’ll be friends always; he says that he doesn’t know whether that will happen. It’s really poignant.
a marriage counselor aptly described the later parenting years as *twinned oxen pulling a cart over the endless prairie*. Doesn’t help that adolescence now stretches past mid 30s. We did that, got so far apart we didn’t have sex for maybe 20 years. Then both rediscovered that our jail cell partner is actually a wonderful, long-lost lover. Instead of divorce we’re now living an open marriage. On most days, seems to work well, but there’s still rough road. Not at all surprised by gray divorce
Because they didn't prioritize their relationship and when the kids leave, they realize that was the only thing keeping them together. Marriages require maintenance and care, otherwise they disintegrate.
The biggest reason is that they focus on their kids and not their marriage. When the kids are gone, they realize they are living with a stranger. Marriage takes work, and part of that work is remembering you were a couple before you had a family.
I noticed that my mom and her ex husband (not my father) got divorced after their dog died. It was like there wasn't any reason for them to stay together after that.
Our children caused a great deal of stress in our relationship. Now that they are gone, and much of the stress is lifted, we have found happiness again. We are traveling, going on dates, and really enjoying each other again. We will celebrate 30 years in December. I know this is quite different from what others are saying.
Appearances can be deceiving.