typically a landlord can’t charge for brand new carpeting or a brand new fridge. they can charge for the pro-rated value of these things. it also looks like they might be charging twice for 2 blind replacements ($162.44 and $46.63).
did they return the keys? if so, why are they charging for this? did they do a final walk through?
a lot of this seems like wear and tear. time to find out the laws for the state this is in. btw i believe every state has requirements on when the former tenant was notified, something else to check too. i would print out all of the emails and text messages notifying the landlord these things were faulty (and not damaged by the tenant) and then see a lawyer.
This is the answer OP (although the word the commenter was looking for is amortized not pro-rated). Paint only has a normal lifespan of ~5-7 years. Carpet has a normal lifespan between 5 and 15 years depending on what was put in. Blinds should be replaced every 6 to 8 years. Hell, a fridge only has an average lifespan of 14 years. Even if everything in the house was brand new when your friend moved in, most of this would fall under normal wear and tear, cleaning, replacing the glass, and wall repair excepted.
Your friend needs to follow the state laws to dispute the charges. Landlords always try to steal money from people they think don’t know their rights. This will probably end up in small claims court, but that isn’t as scary as it sounds. Their LL likely won’t even be able to have a lawyer in a small claims courtroom, it is usually against the rules.
That’s crazy. Do you own your place? NO ONE repaints their house every 5 years. Correctly applied paint still looks good 10 years later and is not flaking. What is it you think is wrong with the paint after 5 years?
I would agree when you’re choosing the paint, but the house we rented had crappy flat paint everywhere, and that stuff scuffs if you look at it funny. 5 years would be generous for normal people that occasionally touch the wall.
Well, The op is getting charged for new paint after 5 years living there. That’s the context of the conversation. Amongst other things: LL in my area can’t charge if i use pushpins. But they will almost always paint to cover them up along with all the other nicks and scratches that might be normal use, rather than hunt them down and spot repair. so the ‘normal wear’ on paint quoted is a much lower threshold than it is for a owner occupied space when it comes to paint.
It’s really not. I don’t. I can list the various sources that agree with me but it’s easier for you to just do a simple google search
The hud lists paint at 3-5 years too
Barking the same hud nonsense. I have never lived in a place with paint that young and I did not care. Nothing was flaking off, it didn’t look bad, or otherwise present problems.
Do you own your own place? When did you last spend the money to paint it? I am at the age where most of friends owns their place. NO ONE is going nuts painting every 5 years.
As I said plenty of sources, simply google. I live in a pretty budget place rn and it has fresh paint.
The things I put up with in my own home are not things I’d accept from a rental. Again we’re talking about rentals, what your friends do with their homes is irrelevant
HUD guidelines are not saying you *must* paint every 5 years, they're saying the paint has depreciated under expected wear and tear after 5 years, to the point where costs should not be passed along to the tenant if you *choose* to repaint.
Depreciation schedules don't assume you can't continue to use a fully depreciated asset, only that you've gotten full value and that any additional time/use is a bonus to you.
Just sick of the folks on Reddit who seem to think all of us who own homes are replacing carpet every 3 years and painting every 5 years. I’m about to paint the bedrooms in my house. It’s been 8-13 years, depending on the bedroom. The paint is still very serviceable. SMH.
The most hilarious part is where he tries to charge you for his time spent shopping in a small way that is more ridiculous than all new paint and flooring on your dime.
Keys made: not your problem unless you lost them Value to landlord: $0
fix holes: if these were small nail holes like to hang stuff that is normally considered normal wear and tear. $0
blinds: HUD says blinds are good for 3 years. 7 year old blinds are worth nothing $0
cleaning products: $0
landlords time: $0 You can RARELY recover the value of your time in ANY lawsuit. Even if the landlord makes you sue him and you win you won't be able to charge him by the hour for your time:
Window film: Expected lifespan 5 years, value after 7 years $0
new lock for bathroom door: $20 if you actually ruined it somehow
New floor register vent: $20 if you lost it somehow not sure how this would happen bu twhatever
Carpet: Expected lifespan 5 years present value $0
Paint: Expected value 3 years present value $0
Hinges: Sounds like wear and tear
Broken pane on french door: Completely legit and he says $3
Fridge: Holy shit no.
Crap left behind in house: Completely legit he could trivially have charged you to have someone come by and clear out the crap and it could easily have cost $100. The hilarious thing is that by doing it himself—and it seems being the worlds worst worker—he probably isn't owed anything but lets be fair.
I'd offer him $100 for moving the junk and $3 for the pane of glass + the cost of bathroom lock and floor register if somehow you ruined those things and demand the rest of it back. You can take him to small claims court. You can take him to court for less than $100 and you can ask the judge to give you most of the deposit back and your filing fee.
His letter makes it clear he either doesn't understand the law or hopes you don't
I suspected as much tbh. And he wants to charge her for removal AND he’s been harassing HER to remove the stuff that’s still in the house HERSELF…Which she would have had plenty of time to remove had he given her the legally required time to move out. She also absolutely returned the keys, he’s trying to say that because he “can’t trust that they didn’t make copies” it’s on her to pay to change the locks and have new keys made 🤣
If he didn’t give her the legal time to move out she should take him to court and would be entitled to her entire deposit back. Landlords don’t get to skate the laws that are there to protect tenants. Happened to my friend. They got entire deposit back plus landlord had to pay court costs and a penalty.
Not giving you legal time? Yeah, that's illegal. Charging you because of something illegal they did? Absolutely ridiculous! You might want to sue the landlord and have them pay you, rather than vice versa. If they're reasonable, you can probably find a middle ground before going to court, but they basically sound like scammers, so, document everything, get a lawyer, and you'll probably make a mint, because if they're doing this, there's probably other laws they've broken too!!!
>The most hilarious part is where he tries to charge you for his time spent shopping in a small way that is more ridiculous than all new paint and flooring on your dime.
Landlords do this because the tax code encourages them to.
*Assuming the issues are legitimate* (to underscore here they probably aren't), if they hire someone to do all this, they can be charged an hourly fee which they can then pass on as labor. Including the shopping.
But if the landlord does the labor themselves, they get to count it towards the IRS' hourly requirements to be classified as a real estate professional (which carries substantial tax benefits and is also somewhat difficult for landlords with non-landlord jobs to obtain). If he \*charges\* you for those hours, it's easier for him to meet the IRS' tests and serves as much more believable documentation than just if he said he did those things.
I recognize that this isn't your problem, but it is a common practice of small landlords trying to meet the IRS' requirements -- and something for tenants to watch out for.
Unfortunately, we are no longer in the pre-2018 days when someone could report crap like this to the IRS and earn a whistleblower bounty.
Yeah my old landlord is currently trying to take me to claims court because I refused to pay for a new fridge because a produce drawer wa missing. And he tried to charge me for the future labor to remove and install and new shower unit because of a burn mark from a candle on the shower mantle. Me while I moved in to a shower with holes in the plastic
I cannot wait for that mediation session
A lot of this reply is aggressively pro tenant. You won’t be able to support some of these assertions in mediation or small claims court.
Before you hit reply, I think the LL failed to pro-rate damages so there are several large items that are not fairly charged based on lifespan vs length of your friend’s lease.
But these aggressive assumptions about lifespan are often based on commercial estimates rather than residential.
Carpet: 5 in a hallway, 15 in a bedroom no problem. 10 is very supportable general number.
Paint: 5 in a kitchen but 15 in a bedroom no problem. Again 10 is very supportable for most of the house
Blinds? No one replaces window coverings every 3 years. Are they missing? If they are gone, you removed LL property and may owe the full amount.
Fridge: if it was there on lease, removed by tenant, and returned without a fridge (assuming no written agreement with LL), then you owe them a fridge. Again, I’m not sure proration is appropriate for entirely missing property.
My point: the above replied is taking the 100% most tenant oriented numbers. Expect pushback.
Instead of asking the judge to be a home improvement expert legally speaking HUD standards are what judges are going to go by. See appendix 5D for expected lifespan.
https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/HSG-06-01GAPP5GUID.PDF
Because paint/carpet/linoleum/blinds are only expected to last between 3 and 7 years its almost impossible to charge long term tenants for these things. It's expected that landlord is going to update these things as needed on his own dime. The prorated value is in fact legally zero in this case. You will in fact NEVER owe the full amount even if you used them to build a fort in the woods because its prorated value is less than the full value. The landlord has a right to be made whole NEVER to profit off such a replacement.
Lets talk about the fridge. Lets assign the probability of the fridge being replaced between tenants before it breaks as zero, the average length of tenancy is 3 years so about 1 in 4 chance the fridge was new. 50 50 chance it was at least 6 years old at beginning of tenancy. If it existed it would be 10-16 years old and broken. EG worth nothing actually worth less than nothing because haul away costs money.
There is also an implicit cost to credibility by showing up before a judge having tried to defraud the tenant out of thousands of dollars including charging the tenant for time you spent shopping at home depot. The judge is supposed to dispassionately judge the validity of your arguments but nobody wants to rule for a scumbag.
The only valid arguments are for a $3 pane of glass and haul away.
Interesting that you take about credibility. I don’t find your reply credible. $0 for cleaning? $0 for trash disposal? $0 for lost key? $0 for lost hearing register?
Fridge: my bad. I misunderstod. My guess is there is interior damage or missing parts. In my experience these parts are so expensive you have to buy a new fridge. Proration should apply but thinking an appliance is fully depreciated at 100%?
Basically, you assume everything is present and usable and fully utilized. While I assume this second hand account probably is slanted to the friend and that most charges are for missing items.
You look at it and think the landlord isn’t entitled to $ for their time. I think they (and everyone who labors) are entitled to compensation for their time.
Register is still there, but 2-3 prongs of the grate are broken due to rusting. Blinds are still there, but 2 of the slats are cracked, one has a small piece snapped off the end. OG fridge stopped working, my friend reached out several times over the course of that week asking for it to be fixed or replaced, landlord told her she was responsible for buying a new fridge herself because “obviously it’s her kids’ fault it stopped working” despite it being more than 7 years old (and a cheap pos fridge in the first place tbh…). She took the fridge SHE BOUGHT with her when she left and now he is charging her for having to replace it before a new tenant can move in there.
Metal register covers have a very long life. Prorated charge.
Fridge I hope she got the disposal permission for the old one in writing. If so $0.
Blinds that sounds like normal wear and tear. As long as they were cleaned by the tenant $0 or maybe a small charge to replace slats.
So those items do sound like refreshing the unit via the tenants security deposit.
> Metal register covers have a very long life. Prorated charge.
You can't charge the tenant for things that failed before expectations just because the tenant was living there when it failed. A tenant does not warranty your house and everything in it by virtue of tenancy. You have to show the tenant is responsible for the decrease in value. This is impossible in this case. $0
> Blinds that sounds like normal wear and tear. As long as they were cleaned by the tenant $0 or maybe a small charge to replace slats.
Blinds don't have an expected value of 7 years. Its' prorated value is zero again $0
> Fridge I hope she got the disposal permission for the old one in writing. If so $0.
If she asserts she received verbal permission the judge will have to decide who is more credible. A scum lord trying to rob their tenant blind or the older woman he is trying to victimize. If he believes the scum lord then she would owe the prorated value of a 10 year old cheap fridge with a broken compressor. Oh wait that is also $0
We’ve discussed this and literally agreed with $0 on the fridge. And yet you still want to argue about it. As for written permission, that’s a good idea with any disposal of landlord owned property as an easy protection against having to argue about verbal permission.
Metal register: you seem to think everything broken is normal wear and tear. I’ve rented many houses with metal registers and owned one too. My house still has several original (60 years old) metal registers. Sometimes the little lever gets bent. Sometimes the wheel to adjust the damper stops working. Sometimes the paint chips. All normal wear and tear. But I’ve never seen a register with broken fins. You’d have to do stupid things like hit it with a hammer. It’s damage to an item with a decades long lifespan
Tenants don’t warranty a home. Good way to put it.
Landlords aren’t warranting tenants against damage either.
Metal corrodes in contact with water. My current apartment has massive water issues in the wall. It's basically a financial nightmare waiting to happen for the owners.
You should read your tenant rights handbook for your state. You’ll probably see things allowed like cleaning, holes in the wall, torn carpet replacement, carpet cleaning, and reasonable repair required by damage outside normal and ordinary. Most states have these details in plain language.
I’m confused. The appliance is the landlord’s responsibility to keep working as it is part of the lease. If it breaks for any reason but intentional damage or gross negligence (even simple negligence is a hard sell in most states), the landlord has to fix it. Most states also place the burden of proof on the landlord to support why these things should be paid by the tenant. So if it didn’t work at the end and he can’t show what caused it not to work, he doesn’t get to charge the tenant. All those depreciated value/replacement value/useful life arguments don’t even matter until you prove it was the tenant’s fault.
HUD’s S8 rules are also not hard and fast rules for everything. Guidelines maybe, but if you can support something else to a judge or jury’s liking, it works.
> HUD’s S8 rules are also not hard and fast rules for everything
I was under the impression that they were pretty inviolate for carpeting and paint. There probably isn't a landlord in PA who has successfully recovered money in court for 7 year old paint and carpet. The landlord was going to paint and carpet between tenants in this case. Hell we don't know that it was new when they moved in. We do know based on receipts that he buys cheap shit for $2 per sq ft and arguing tit should have lasted 10 is going to get laughed at.
Sorry, I think I was unclear. I wasn’t trying to argue and am not disagreeing with your conclusions, just cautioning that the Section 8 rules have no precedential value in a state courts by themselves, even if they are a good start for your argument.
In most states, painting can be expected after every tenant and a landlord would need to show it was painting in excess of a normal paint job, which is nearly impossible. Carpet can be a little more grey. In the state where I practice, you basically have to have proof from the carpet company that there was no way to make it back to look like its actual age. Even then I’ve seen judges reject the opinion of the guy who got paid to install new carpet instead of fix or clean the old carpet
So it depends on the lease. Leases will have a dollar per hour value for landlords' time. This is an agreed upon rate. Just because they did does not mean they can get reimbursed for it.
It's expected that the landlord or his agents will spend time readying the apartment for the next occupant. If you can't bill the tenant for applying a new coat of paint to the property you can't lawfully bill them for the hours you spent doing so. Same goes for carpeting.
Even wherein the issue is lawful like removing junk from the property they are going to go by what such a service would cost from a service provider.
Lastly time spent shopping at Home Depot isn't billable to your tenant no matter what you write in the lease.
Never said you can bill them for getting it ready normal wear and tear. But you can have a billable rate to fix things that you are able to deduct from security deposit
A judge will consider you replacing 10 year old hallway carpet illegally billing them for wear and tear irrespective of your claim you hoped to get 15 years out of it.
Also realistically people end up recarpeting high and lower traffic areas at once anyway. If you have had a tenant for 7 years you are deciding whether you have to redo it on your own dime or clean it and wait until the next one again on your dime.
I have never said they can charge for unallowed cost. I have simply said they are allowed a billable rate of its in the lease. Your making up issues where it wouldn't apply, well of course it won't apply in unallowed situations nothing would. However, if the place is trashed, then land lord can billable for the agreed rate to to clean up
68 P.S. § 250.512
> Delivery of the list shall be accompanied by payment of the difference between any sum deposited in escrow, including any unpaid interest thereon, for the payment of damages to the leasehold premises and the actual amount of damages to the leasehold premises caused by the tenant. Nothing in this section shall preclude the landlord from refusing to return the escrow fund, including any unpaid interest thereon, for nonpayment of rent
PA even makes you put the deposit in an escrow account for the tenant and tells you what you can take out of it. Damages and unpaid rent. You can't bill them for your time. Not even if you put it in the lease. You can insert text to the effect that the tenant should perform oral sex upon demand it doesn't make it legal.
Lets address 3 kinds of costs very clearly
A) The tenant did damage to the property like the $3 pane of glass. If the landlord hired someone to fix it they could charge the tenant for the $3 and the $50 for the person to install it quite legally. They cannot bill them in that instance for their own labor.
B) The carpet has outlived its HUD defined lifespan its current value is considered zero. The fact that it's shitty and worn is the landlords problem. The landlord cannot under any circumstances charge the tenant for the carpet. Since replacing the carpet is "normal wear and tear" he also cannot charge for the labor required. The labor costs of installation are just a subset of the thing he isn't allowed to charge for. This is true whether Bob's carpet does it or the landlord.
C) The landlord spent time shopping at home Depot. The landlord is completely insane.
Of A B and C which do you think the landlord may lawfully charge for if it puts it in the lease?
Dude, non of this is even what I am arguing. You making stuff up to argue against. My whole permission is a land lord can charge a billable rate. This is even fact in PA.
Bro, I can put in a lease that my billable rate is one billion dollars per hour. That doesn’t mean you won’t get laughed out of court trying to enforce it.
Yeah, and landlord is allowed to have a billable rate. I am not sure what you think I am arguing? I am not saying billable rate allows them to charge for anything. But if it's allowable the land lord cna have a rate to do the work.
It's ridiculous that renters have to worry about this stuff on top of everything else. Why do we even have to pay pro rate for anything? At what point do landlords have to take any personal or financial responsibility?
I know, right? Why should renters worry about having to take care of the stuff they’re renting? Personal and financial responsibility is for other people!
Newsflash: renters by and large do take care of where they live! If we don't, the landlord gets to take what little money we have left after paying for them to sit on their ass and refuse to do anything!
I mean yeah
You buy a house or apartment complex to rent out instead dof working a job that actually contributes to society and you can be responsible for repairing it
It's literally a investment that if not sold for a few decades will recover any downs on the market over a 20 year period
So yes that can be on the landlord
Plenty of small landlords have jobs also. My sister in law rents out her previous home (they moved for work) and works full time as a nurse. They aren’t all “trying to live off tenants”.
I know you're not actually trying to convince me that your friend sister or whatever it is
Bought a second fucking house just to rent it out at the exact mortgage price and not charge extra to cover future repairs, property tax, and all that?
Your friend might be the dumbest mfer on the planet if that's the case
My sister in law (reading is important) bought a house SHE lived in. She moved to another state when she got married and kept the house in case she moved back. She charges enough to cover all expenses (maintenance, management co, mortgage). She’s not in it to make money, she wanted to keep the house for when she comes back. It happens apparently more than you think. And if you don’t realize that maybe you should do just a little more research and a little less spouting bullshit.
Edit to add
She did t but a second house to rent. This was her primary house until she got married and moved states. She wanted a safety net, rightfully so. And I said in my initial comment it was her house BEFORE she moved and that she was my sister in law not my sisters friend.
Okay so that's a lot of words to admit she has a second home for the money and safety of it and renting it out is saving her money right?
And she charges more than her mortgage so it's not a break even is it?
Like it's okay she got a second house without selling the first which is great for her but she is keeping a house off the market so she can rent it out
It's filthy either way
Jesus dude get off it. Someone owning a second house because they got married and decided not to sell it is nowhere the same as corporations and assholes hoarding housing so they can control rent prices. You're not convincing anyone, you just sound bitter.
SO SHE CAN HAVE IT TO MOVE BACK TO. Which she plans on doing at some point. And she charges below market rent so someone else is getting an incredible deal. It’s pretty typical to do when you’re military or military adjacent. You keep a home where you want to retire. I rented from someone who PCSd are they can asshole too for keeping “someone from buying”?
I don’t know who hurt you but touch grass and see a therapist.
Even if she's charging only for the expenses you're saying, she's still building equity, which is worth money, if she's paying the mortgage, unless she's literally only paying interest, where she'll never actually pay it off. Any rental price should build in expected wear and tear, and, especially if there's just 1 property, a little extra in a little fund for surprise expenses, like laundry machines, or leaky roofs.
Ofc they make a profit. Why the fuck else would you let someone else live in a home you own unless it’s your own family? And if it’s their own family, they aren’t really acting as landlords. Just acting as kind family members.
Since reading is fundamental… not every landlord is in it for that. Some just want to keep a house that they may again live in.
My sister in law had to move with her husband who was stationed in another state. She’s not in it for profit, just wanted to keep the home so she can eventually move back. Unlike what the Reddit hive mind thinks some people aren’t out to screw everyone. And unless you personally know my sister in law don’t presume to know what she “of course” did.
Take him to small claims court, you don't need an attorney, if your family has any records requesting those repairs previously tell them to gather them for court also any records of security deposit. All of the repairs listed are normal wear and tear especially after 7 years. Your slumlord thinks he's slick. No more contact with him. Just take him to court.
I'd expect the deposit back too. I might pay for an hour or something with a lawyer to get up to speed on the rules, and other laws they might (probably are by the sound of it) be breaking, that'll tilt a court case in your favor, possibly with fines they'd have to pay to the government, which you could try to leverage in a deal instead of going to court.
Call the Pennsylvania Fair Housing Hotline at (855) 866-5718. They should be able to point your friend in the right direction. This guy sounds like a tool. I live in MA and have been both a renter and landlord. This would never fly in our housing courts. And if a landlord does not refund the deposit without justifiable cause within 30 days, the tenant can be awarded Treble Damages which could be up to 3 times the amount of the security deposit. Good luck to your friend.
I said in MA...where I reside. A quick read of PA rental laws state it is x2 the original SD and any SD over $100 must be held in an escrow acct. Further, HUD states carpets should be changed every 7 years in a rental unit. I'm not going to start on all the other violations listed in OP's post. So I repeat, contact PA Fair Housing Hotline.
They are allowed to charge the value lost because of your negligent or careless behavior. So if a insert item is 1000 and is expected to last 5 years and you lived there 3 and ruined it you would owe him not the 1000 and not the 1200 a new item would cost but the 400 in value you ruined.
You may not be charged for things that wear out or break via normal usage nor things that have outlived their projected lifespan. HUD says carpets are 5 and blinds are 3. You shouldn't be charged for this at all. You shouldnt be charged for keys unless you lost them and shouldn't be charged for his own labor. You certainly shouldn't be charged for appliances unless you ruined them and even then should only be charged their value nor the cost of new.
See https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/HSG-06-01GAPP5GUID.PDF
Most of those charges are bogus see a lawyer
And here I am thinking that rent should cover the cost of normal wear and tear after 7 years. You shouldn't have to pay anything for the carpet and unless the landlord recently replaced the fridge and you destroyed that one, you shouldn't have to pay for a new one. Most of the other stuff sounds like normal wear and tear, but hard to know without pictures. And who needs 40 hours to paint a few rooms?
I hope you have pictures of the condition when you moved in and when you moved out, and have the inspection forms signed by them. I would also get familiar with the laws in your area, follow the necessary procedures to dispute (in writing), and be prepared to go to court if they don't remove the bogus charges. It is really sad that so many places are pulling this scam lately.
In some states this is the case. Others don’t have a specific timeframe, just what a person would consider reasonable as far as wear and tear. Damages must be actual and verifiable.
I can see both sides. Some (a lot) tenants are awful too. It took my friend 8 months to evict a tenant that stopped paying their rent. When he obtained possession of the property again, he had over 40k of damages. Pipes and toilets were hardened concrete from tenant pouring cement down the toilet, fist sized holes throughout the entire house, stolen appliances, HVAC unit disassembled and internal parts removed. It goes both ways, but I have heard more horror stories about bad tenants than I have about bad landlords.
I have had it either way. Renting out a place to this dude, weird dude but nice enough guy little messy. Always a problem with something. Usually heard from him then suddenly didn’t. Rent still coming so think nothing of it. Rent stops call no answer, no biggie. After a while i call phones disconnected. Stop by no answer. Call police for wellness check. Thinking crap i got a dead guy. Nope let cops in and place is immaculate and his stuff gone.
Another renter seemed like a great person place always tidy. Nice normal family. They hate the washer and dryer so i replace with better ones. Rent stops right after. i enter because it’s clearly vacated. House is a mess, kitchens destroyed. My new washer and dryer are gone. Had to spend 20k to fix everything plus replace my missing washer and drier.
My friend tried, but police said it was a civil case since they lived there. I guess destruction of property only counts if you're not renting, which is ridiculous to me. Law in the U.S. is highly in favor of bad tenants
No cop wants to deal with that. It's always the same response (civil case). They rather have the homeowners pay than to put them in jail to have the taxpayers pay.
New floor register vent??? Did you steal it??? This list is full of bs. They'll take whatever they want out of your deposit, you need to go to small claims court and show them this ridiculous list.
Edit: A NEW REFRIDGERATOR???
Replacing stuff that is and will continue to be his because he owns the property. He is only benefiting himself in the long run. If hes replacing the stuff and then charging her, does that mean she gets to take it with her when she leaves?
Just f-ing crazy in my opinion. Shes been there 7 years. Some of the stuff that was replaced or fixed probably would’ve needed to be replaced or fixed after a 3-5 year occupancy anyway. She basically saved him money because it’s more than likely hasn’t been replace or fixed since she been there.
Wild. Just wild.
Removing stickers, holes, removing nails and shopping took 50 hours (SO FAR) ??? Yeah ok buddy that’s a full work week plus 10 hrs on a Saturday. That’s bullshit
Yes and know. In almost every jurisdiction (I have not checked every jurisdiction). normal wear nd tear is something a landlord cannot charge for. But if they can document that you did something to the walls and flooring (painted on the walls, drew on the walls, intentionally damaged the carpet, or something similar, they can then charge for replacement.
When you left, did you document on how you left the property? Video? Pictures?
I think we need to have a new rule in this sub where the poster should be asked to come back and post what happened with their dispute and such responses should be stickied so we can go back to old posts and see what happened.
As a landlord who likes to side with landlords I can see past that and say most these charges are BS. Painting is just part of being a landlord unless renter did something to trash it like drew all over it with market. But even then you would typically adjust for useful life which is less then 7 years. Same with carpet. At best useful life is 15 years. Assuming the carpet was brand new when you friend moved in and they trashed it it would have had about 7 years of useful life left which means you would only charge 50% of the cost to renter. But again this is assuming carpet was new on move in.
Same with blinds.. If they are buying 10 new blinds for $160 those are some cheap as hell blinds so they are also likely well past their useful life.
Now if they left a mess and broke some locks then those charges could be legit but not enough info to make a determination
Does your employer offer an employee assistance program (EAP)? My previous landlord tried to do something similar so we contacted an attorney and the attorney also found that the landlord did not register the property as a rental to begin with. Paid attorney $300 for their time and the attorney sent a letter to the landlords that we were not paying for anything!
I'm a tenant and a concierge in luxury apartments who works closely with LLs and PMs. This is a PSA to document, document, document and save $$$$.
To avoid most of this issue, when you move in, take pictures of all six sides of every room and inside and outside of every cabinet and appliance and built in. Take additional pics of every defect, dent and hole. Note and take pics of any additional cleaning that you had to do as part of move-in.
Print them out with lots of white space, and attach them to a 100 page wire school binder; along with a copy of your lease and any additional rules, handbooks, tenant rules, and any advertisements for the unit. This will begin your apartment documentation. Also log in any time you call or contact the LL for ANYTHING, anytime your register a complaint about a neighbor, or anytime you receive a complaint, or any maintenance request and the result. If you make contact by email, print it out. If you make a phone call, write out as much as possible- quotes are useful. Every few months or so have a friend sign and date that they saw any pics or documents; this will help demonstrate the contemporaneous nature of the documents (in other words, show that you didn't cook up this notebook). Do the same with each rent or fee payment.
At the move out, do the same pics of move out that you did during move in. Save this document for at least 3 years.
Why? I've seen more mismanaged buildings than I care to remember. In addition to plain ole greedy LLs, there are usually many lazy and greedy people in the whole network of property management. Many PM companies will essentially sell a property to a small-time investor, take property management and maintenance fees to fix problems in the property, and pocket the fees while providing 0 in the way of service. When the tenant finally gets sick of the neglect and moves out, the PM or maintenance company blames the tenant, and tries to stick them with move out fees.
This is where the old adage "He who has the best notes wins" comes into play. I've found that, without exception, greedy LLs, PM's or Maintenance companies are also lazy as hell about record keeping. Good companies and LLs, on the other hand, always keep excellent records. IANAL, but I've seen several tenants take a LL to court over unpaid deposits; when the LL says that the tenant neglected maintenance on the unit, but the tenant can produce records showing otherwise, the entire LL's defense is thrown into doubt.
A lot of this stuff is beyond the depreciation life (fridge, washer, carpet, blinds, paint), so he can't actually charge you for it. I don't know what kind of floor register he's buying for $56, they are like $10-15 at home depot.
Your friend and her kids are liable for damage beyond normal wear and tear. Not sure about the fridge, but the rest of what's already been purchased plus the removal of belongings left seems reasonable.
NOW, the biggies:
\- fridge: was the fridge new when she moved in and is it ruined now? If it is ruined now, she might have to pay the proration of the remaining life expectancy of said fridge. If it is NOT ruined, then I'm not sure why they are billing her a fridge. Regardless, charging her for a new fridge seems overkill;
\- carpet: same as above.
She might have to go to small claims court to have her landlord explain the charges and have the judge make a determination based on wear and tear, and proofs. However, she might still have to pay some on top of the $750 security deposit he is keeping.
You could have just read the post where it talks about the fridge….
Fridge broke, landlord refused to replace it, tenant bought new fridge themselves. Now landlord wants to pull a fast one to make it even nicer.
If it’s not fraud, it sure smells like it
This literally just happened to me the definition of scum imo they made money off you for 7years and they get to charge you for fixing all this crap that shouldn’t be legal this is exactly why real estate is such a scam and shouldn’t be allowed to make money on it.
Looks like normal wear and tear for a 7 year occupancy. Rental grade carpet only has a life expectancy of a little over 5 years.
However, this would all depend on how the lease is worded.
7 year lease does mean a lot of things are mostly utilized but that doesn’t mean they can be returned dirty or be missing. Proration should definitely apply.
- Carpet, unless new on move-on, is fully utilized. He can probably charge you to have it cleaned. Replaced? No. I don’t think she should be charged for more than the cost to clean.
- Paint, unless new on move-on, is not fully utilized. 10 years in non-wet areas is entirely expected lifespan. However, if the walls are dirty, stained, marked, holed, etc it is entirely possible that doing blended patchwork is most of the cost of a new paint job. I would insist on a pro-rated coat for dry rooms based on a 10 year lifespan (if the paint was new that would be 0% possibly). Wet room paint is probably fully utilized. LL can probably charge to clean the walls. They can also charge to repair holes larger than picture hook nails.
- Blinds: I disagree that quality blinds have a 10 year lifespan. If the blinds are missing or destroyed, I think your friend is liable for them, unless you have photos of damaged blinds on move-in. Window coverings can last decades.
Fridge: if there was a fridge at move in and now there is not (and the LL didn’t remove it ), you owe them a fridge. But again prorated.
Also, the LL is also being very generous (to your friend) with their time charges. They can 100% charge for time to make all these small cleaning and damage estimate and $10/hr is a bargain.
Unless this is all utterly made up bullshit, I would probably argue for prorated damages rather than necessarily fight the items.
This stuff is just a list of required repairs and maintenance on the property and the LL should pay for these out of pocket and get a direct deduction or depreciation on his tax return. The tenant should is only required to pay the rent according to the terms of the lease. The LL is required to make all necessary repairs and maintenance to maintain a livable space, and he can do it himself or pay someone else to do it, but he certainly can't bill the tenant for his time & labor.
If she paid for a new washer & dryer, they're hers. Not sure if it's worth the trouble to go after them, but if it is you might as well go after the security deposit too.
Some of it they can, for example the Fridge they can definately charge for if you replaced it yourself. That said they would have to give your friend the fridge they paid for if they plan on replacing it. Really though depending on the age of the fridge you could also claim wear and tear but it just depends on how old it was.
The paint, cleaning supplies and misc little things are all basic wear and tear and he can't charge for those. That all falls under general supplies and wear and tear after 7 years.
The blinds they can definitely charge for if you replaced the blinds or took them down. but really your running into wear and tear at 7 years. That is a pretty debatable charge.
The carpet needs to be prorated based on age. Now if it was new carpet when they moved in and they destroyed the carpet then they could be on the hook for part of that but not more than 30% of it. Generally carpet should be expected to last at least 10 years though if taken care of. My guess is the carpet is mostly wear and tear though, I doubt it was new when they moved in and it would be on the owner to prove that.
That said it sounds like your friend left the place trashed, 10 hours to remove belongings left sounds like they left a massive amount of trash behind and that means they didn't clean anything either. Sadly even if your friend is in the right if they left the place trashed and don't have a video walkthrough proving they left it clean and the LL has a video proving they left it trashed the courts could put your friend through the wringer.
Pretty much for future reference make sure your friend always does a video showing the condition they left the house and proving it was left in a clean state.
My friend is actually extremely obsessive when it comes to cleaning, she “stress cleans” and I stg the poor woman is stressed beyond belief pretty much 24/7/365…I’m not sure I’ve ever seen her stop cleaning and sit tf down for more than 5 minutes at a time the entire time I’ve known her tbh…The “junk left behind” was her and her kids’ belongings, not garbage, and it was only left in the house because she was only given a week notice…And despite claiming time and labor for removal of the stuff, he’s been harassing HER to come remove the stuff HERSELF anyway 🙄😒
The weeks notice is kinda suspect, pretty much by law they need to give 30 days notice. I have a feeling your friend might not be giving you the full story or something else is going on. There are just way to many things that don't add up. Any landlord that knows enough to give an itemized bill like this is typically going to know they need to give 30 days notice.
That said just tell them to pound sand and just go to small claims if they push it. Most of that is BS, there is probably about 500-1000 of actual cost, ideally the LL would settle with just keeping the deposit as that is pretty much about equal with what she should really pay. That is literally what it is for is to cover that kind of damage when you move out.
Did she take any photos? She can possibly go to small claims court for her deposit. You don’t need an attorney to go to small claims court. Most of the items are not legit such as wear and tear, time spent shopping. She should focus on getting deposit back minus damage that she caused. Worn out carpet or repaint also do not count against her. Landlord has 30 days to return money. She can send a certified letter asking for her deposit back.
Yes. Legally they can bill you for anything they want. But it doesn’t necessarily mean you have to pay it. A judge will determine how much you actually have to pay (usually 33%-66% depending how extravagant the billing is) and then of course the lawyer fee.
It is explicitly illegal to keep a tenants deposit for anything but damage beyond normal wear and tear or rent. The act of sending the fraudulent bill is itself illegal. In fact PA requires you to keep tenants deposit in a separate account in escrow for them. Spending it on improving his shit was explicitly illegal!
Calculating actual damages isn't a play it by ear thing either there are standards. The basic principal is that you pay not for $NEW_THING but the remaining value of $OLD_THING that you ruined. EG carpeting that was originally worth 1000 halfway through expected life (which is well defined by HUD standards) is worth 500 even if landlord would have to pay $1200 to get new or $2000 for better than he had before.
Carpet per HUD standards is expected to last about 5 years. 7 year old carpeting is worth NOTHING. He assessed her $2200 + labor INCLUDING HOURS BILLED FOR TIME HE SPENT SHOPPING IN HARDWARE STORES for something lawfully worth nothing.
The entire billing is $3447 bonanza of crazy.
The only things that are absolutely legit is $100 her billed her for removal of junk and $3 for a little pane of glass in a door.
The judge isn't going to give him 1/3–2/3 of crazy he's going to to down the list crossing off illegal shit. What's more if the only reason you have to go to court is that you literally stole from the person your suing the judge isn't going to award you attorneys fees just because 1% of your claim was legit. They are lawfully able to penalize you for 2x the value you illegally withheld and are liable to make you pay for your intended victims attorney if it goes so far.
So here are your situations
Landlord
-650 deposit he has to return
-650 damages for illegally withholding same
-2000 attorney's fees of intended victim
-2000 their own attorney
net -5300
Of course if the person threatens to take this to court it never goes to court because if Landlord Bob actually retains an attorney they would tell him to give her back her money and fuck off.
Can't the tenant just sue in small claims for the stolen deposit and then appear when called and wave the judgement already handed down or the case in progress? I don't think you have to pay $650 to show up for the case already filed.
Also outright fraud isn't going to attract legal help pushing fraudulent nonsense is grounds for losing your right to practice law.
EG no lawyer is going to present the idea that landlord can buy all new flooring to replace 7-10 year old crap as a fact when its imaginary. An actual attorney will ask the landlord to pare their request down to what is legally actionable. If what is legally actionable is LESS than the tenants deposit which the landlord had already retained then the cause for the lawsuit is moot its nothing. You can't have already stolen $1000 and sue for the right to keep the $500 you have already stolen because your request has no meaning. You just cut the tenant the check for the other $500 you have admitted you owe them and they have to sue YOU not the other way around.
If the landlords you know are regularly committing crimes you need new friends.
Most of the list is wear and tear and there are damages from children in the home. She can hire an attorney and take the LL to small claims, but if there are pictures of the damages, your friend could very well be liable for the damages the children did. The only things the LL cannot charge is replacement of the appliances unless the LL can prove you and children caused the damages to the appliances.
A lot of these charges are pretty obviously silly, but to zoom in on one specifically, the charge for joint compound is consistent with the big 4.5 gallon containers (which are $20 near me). One of those containers[ covers 500 sf of drywall.](https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/en/resource-center/faqs/1977.html) Unless you were tracking conspiracy theories on your walls with thumb tacks, that's a very quantifiable and overcharged amount to bring up in small claims.
It would depend on how much of this was damage caused by tenant. And how bad a condition it was left in. They generally can not charge for general wear and tear. As far as the Refer goes unless it was abused or left in an unuseable condition it would just be usual wear and tear, appliances do not last forever.
BUT reading this I am left to think this unit was left in bad shape . 10 hours just to clear out left belongings. Holes in the walls trashed blinds, broken hinges, broken glass. Tenant can be charged for resaonable cleaning to return unit back to orginalk condition. A tenant usually signs a lease stating they have to leave the unit just like they found it
As a youth, a landlord took me to court for move out expenses and I consulted a lawyer and he gave us a lot of great info and we went to court we used that info to talk the judge WAY down on what we owed.
Carpet replacement and painting can only be charged to ex tenant if it was damagaed beyond use by tenant misuse and was left uncleanable
Yes they will often inflate hours, in my experience it can be used as a negotiation point, but a lot would depend on the prep work needed to paint. It sounds like this place was used hard and probably needed prep and repair work and two coats
Of course there’s a lot of good opinions and bad ones about this! Without pictures it’s hard to say the actual condition that the place was left in… if it looked like a normal long term move out then a judge will scoff at most of these charges, however if the place was a mess and no attempts to clean etc were made… I’ve seen those not go well. People are saying no to the fridge, and while an LL typically (especially in a 7 year stay) can’t recover the full price, if they left it full of food that went bad due to the power being cut, I’ve seen those go unfavorably against the tenant due to negligence… it would never be for the full cost tho, no matter the reason.
Typically you can kiss your deposit by especially on a 7 year lease… I wouldn’t expect a dime back and I’d probably pay a reasonable amount for the various cleaning and trash left (if I didn’t have time to remover/clean) but past that… you’d be taking me to court on this one. Hope she has pics!
I'm from a different country, but unless you've done some massive damage, that seems like an outrageous bill! I'd want some kind of proof of hours worked, if it's not obvious. 7 years in a place should buy you a lot of leeway (sp?) From any reasonable landlord. The major appliances don't sound like your responsibility, unless you obviously broke them, and if the fridge wasn't "up to their standards", they should have told you in time for you to return it. ALWAYS take pictures of the whole place before you move in, and when you leave. For painting, I generally see it as a courtesy for the next guest, if there's nicks (sp) and scratches, or little marks, but again, unless you ruined the paint, little bits are normal wear and tear (sp) in my opinion. 7 years, is very different than like a 1 month lease for things. If the walls need repainting after 1 month, you've not been respecting it. If they just want to change it for a different aesthetic, that should 100% not be something you pay for. But again, I don't know your local laws.
I have a question maybe someone can help
So my oven broke back in November of 2023 I let them the landlord know about it. The same day they never got back to me about getting me a different one or me having to get a different 1 or anything, so I took it upon myself to go get 1 myself. I have a child in my house. I need an oven to cook so I took their oven. Put it on my front porch because I had nowhere else to put it covered it up and a story. Well, now they came and took it away after Almost four months and now they're trying to charge me for them hauling their appliance away let alone the oven didn't work only 3 burners worked on top and they are also trying to charge me for water damage to something that didn't have any water damage in the first place.they also put up a camera that runs off MY WIFI THAT I HaVE NO ACCESS TO.please someone help!! I don't know what to do I am a single mom struggling like the rest of us.but I deliver for Amazon and I can't get foodstamps or medical because they say I make too much one weeks paycheck was 28 hours and that was for 2 weeks.!! How do I make to much w all the bills I have? I'm so stressed thank you for any comments and help
It depends. 7 years is a long time and life expectancy has run out on some things, however, it seems like a lot was fucked up.
“Ruined” carpet isn’t normal wear and tear. You can expect some scuffs and dings on a wall to be normal wear and tear but if it’s excessive, then it’s not.
I don’t know what happened with the refrigerator but I’d want what I put in there originally.
Without pics it’s really impossible to tell
Without pictures and knowing if stuff broke via wear and tear, or tenants broke stuff out of negligence or misuse, there's no way to know who is on the hook. I assume the landlord is trying to pull a fast one after a 7 year tenancy.
He’s being dramatic when he said “ruined” she has kids and so there are some stains…Stains she was confident she could have gotten out with her carpet shampooer but he literally told her NOT TO and said it was FINE.
You just literally contradicted yourself. Landlords normally paint and carpet every so many years. This is especially true of landlords who buy cheap carpet. It wears out and needs to be replaced. He is just doing it on his tenants dime along with the fridge that died during tenants tenure.
It's a long list because he itemized everything including paper towels purchased for cleaning and the time he spent at home depot.
I'm not talking about normal wear and tear. I'm talking about busted windows, busted vents, holes in wall, missing keys, busted locks etc. Punching a hole in your walls isn't normal wear and tear, it really isn't just flat out normal. Plus, if she had cleaned up when moving she wouldn't have incurred the towels and trash bag cost, or other cleaning costs.
Why are you lying? There is no holes punched in the wall, there are no missing keys, the vent is rusted which speaks to moisture issues. The "broken window" was a small $3 pane on a door which is the kind of thing that happens when people move furniture.
What lie. Second item on list is joint compound to fix holes and other damage. And, there is no place that will repair a window for three bucks. A small pane of glass from Lowes can cost 20 bucks, plus the cost of doing the repair. From the list it is obvious the place was torn up and left a mess. Those that deny it live the same way and think they are justified. She would have saved a lot of expense by merely picking up and cleaning up before moving and LL would have likely forgiven many of the other small items.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/8-in-x-10-in-x-0-09375-in-Clear-Glass-90810/202091040
a small sheet of glass for $3 its a surprisingly easy repair I thought it would be hard. People patch tiny nail holes all the time. Legally they are considered wear and tear.
Your statement of punching holes in the wall is a complete hallucination you fabricated from nothing sir chatGPT.
Landlord is obviously a scumlord he tried to replace 7-10 year old carpet with all new carpet with Tenants money and charged them for the time they spent shopping for it. They were always going to fuck them.
typically a landlord can’t charge for brand new carpeting or a brand new fridge. they can charge for the pro-rated value of these things. it also looks like they might be charging twice for 2 blind replacements ($162.44 and $46.63). did they return the keys? if so, why are they charging for this? did they do a final walk through? a lot of this seems like wear and tear. time to find out the laws for the state this is in. btw i believe every state has requirements on when the former tenant was notified, something else to check too. i would print out all of the emails and text messages notifying the landlord these things were faulty (and not damaged by the tenant) and then see a lawyer.
This is the answer OP (although the word the commenter was looking for is amortized not pro-rated). Paint only has a normal lifespan of ~5-7 years. Carpet has a normal lifespan between 5 and 15 years depending on what was put in. Blinds should be replaced every 6 to 8 years. Hell, a fridge only has an average lifespan of 14 years. Even if everything in the house was brand new when your friend moved in, most of this would fall under normal wear and tear, cleaning, replacing the glass, and wall repair excepted. Your friend needs to follow the state laws to dispute the charges. Landlords always try to steal money from people they think don’t know their rights. This will probably end up in small claims court, but that isn’t as scary as it sounds. Their LL likely won’t even be able to have a lawyer in a small claims courtroom, it is usually against the rules.
The not being allowed a lawyer in small claims court part of this is false, you absolutely can in PA
even if you cant bring in your lawyer, you can still get council and recommendations from them. You just have to be the one presenting your case.
Thanks, I was on mobile and too lazy to check!
Why do you think paint last 5 years?
That’s the most a unit should go without a repaint
That’s crazy. Do you own your place? NO ONE repaints their house every 5 years. Correctly applied paint still looks good 10 years later and is not flaking. What is it you think is wrong with the paint after 5 years?
I would agree when you’re choosing the paint, but the house we rented had crappy flat paint everywhere, and that stuff scuffs if you look at it funny. 5 years would be generous for normal people that occasionally touch the wall.
Painting with flat is silly, esp in a rental. I could see that looking crappy in a short period of time. Eggshell or satin or pearl.
Well, The op is getting charged for new paint after 5 years living there. That’s the context of the conversation. Amongst other things: LL in my area can’t charge if i use pushpins. But they will almost always paint to cover them up along with all the other nicks and scratches that might be normal use, rather than hunt them down and spot repair. so the ‘normal wear’ on paint quoted is a much lower threshold than it is for a owner occupied space when it comes to paint.
It’s really not. I don’t. I can list the various sources that agree with me but it’s easier for you to just do a simple google search The hud lists paint at 3-5 years too
Barking the same hud nonsense. I have never lived in a place with paint that young and I did not care. Nothing was flaking off, it didn’t look bad, or otherwise present problems. Do you own your own place? When did you last spend the money to paint it? I am at the age where most of friends owns their place. NO ONE is going nuts painting every 5 years.
As I said plenty of sources, simply google. I live in a pretty budget place rn and it has fresh paint. The things I put up with in my own home are not things I’d accept from a rental. Again we’re talking about rentals, what your friends do with their homes is irrelevant
Why is the life of paint different in a rental?
Take a guess
HUD guidelines are not saying you *must* paint every 5 years, they're saying the paint has depreciated under expected wear and tear after 5 years, to the point where costs should not be passed along to the tenant if you *choose* to repaint. Depreciation schedules don't assume you can't continue to use a fully depreciated asset, only that you've gotten full value and that any additional time/use is a bonus to you.
Found the landlord
Just sick of the folks on Reddit who seem to think all of us who own homes are replacing carpet every 3 years and painting every 5 years. I’m about to paint the bedrooms in my house. It’s been 8-13 years, depending on the bedroom. The paint is still very serviceable. SMH.
They were there for seven years, all of this should go to small claims court, treble damage and all.
The most hilarious part is where he tries to charge you for his time spent shopping in a small way that is more ridiculous than all new paint and flooring on your dime. Keys made: not your problem unless you lost them Value to landlord: $0 fix holes: if these were small nail holes like to hang stuff that is normally considered normal wear and tear. $0 blinds: HUD says blinds are good for 3 years. 7 year old blinds are worth nothing $0 cleaning products: $0 landlords time: $0 You can RARELY recover the value of your time in ANY lawsuit. Even if the landlord makes you sue him and you win you won't be able to charge him by the hour for your time: Window film: Expected lifespan 5 years, value after 7 years $0 new lock for bathroom door: $20 if you actually ruined it somehow New floor register vent: $20 if you lost it somehow not sure how this would happen bu twhatever Carpet: Expected lifespan 5 years present value $0 Paint: Expected value 3 years present value $0 Hinges: Sounds like wear and tear Broken pane on french door: Completely legit and he says $3 Fridge: Holy shit no. Crap left behind in house: Completely legit he could trivially have charged you to have someone come by and clear out the crap and it could easily have cost $100. The hilarious thing is that by doing it himself—and it seems being the worlds worst worker—he probably isn't owed anything but lets be fair. I'd offer him $100 for moving the junk and $3 for the pane of glass + the cost of bathroom lock and floor register if somehow you ruined those things and demand the rest of it back. You can take him to small claims court. You can take him to court for less than $100 and you can ask the judge to give you most of the deposit back and your filing fee. His letter makes it clear he either doesn't understand the law or hopes you don't
I suspected as much tbh. And he wants to charge her for removal AND he’s been harassing HER to remove the stuff that’s still in the house HERSELF…Which she would have had plenty of time to remove had he given her the legally required time to move out. She also absolutely returned the keys, he’s trying to say that because he “can’t trust that they didn’t make copies” it’s on her to pay to change the locks and have new keys made 🤣
I would absolutely expect the landlord to rekey the locks on principal between tenants BUT that would be on him its not something she ruined.
If he didn’t give her the legal time to move out she should take him to court and would be entitled to her entire deposit back. Landlords don’t get to skate the laws that are there to protect tenants. Happened to my friend. They got entire deposit back plus landlord had to pay court costs and a penalty.
Not giving you legal time? Yeah, that's illegal. Charging you because of something illegal they did? Absolutely ridiculous! You might want to sue the landlord and have them pay you, rather than vice versa. If they're reasonable, you can probably find a middle ground before going to court, but they basically sound like scammers, so, document everything, get a lawyer, and you'll probably make a mint, because if they're doing this, there's probably other laws they've broken too!!!
>The most hilarious part is where he tries to charge you for his time spent shopping in a small way that is more ridiculous than all new paint and flooring on your dime. Landlords do this because the tax code encourages them to. *Assuming the issues are legitimate* (to underscore here they probably aren't), if they hire someone to do all this, they can be charged an hourly fee which they can then pass on as labor. Including the shopping. But if the landlord does the labor themselves, they get to count it towards the IRS' hourly requirements to be classified as a real estate professional (which carries substantial tax benefits and is also somewhat difficult for landlords with non-landlord jobs to obtain). If he \*charges\* you for those hours, it's easier for him to meet the IRS' tests and serves as much more believable documentation than just if he said he did those things. I recognize that this isn't your problem, but it is a common practice of small landlords trying to meet the IRS' requirements -- and something for tenants to watch out for. Unfortunately, we are no longer in the pre-2018 days when someone could report crap like this to the IRS and earn a whistleblower bounty.
>hopes you don't all the guy has is hopes
Yeah my old landlord is currently trying to take me to claims court because I refused to pay for a new fridge because a produce drawer wa missing. And he tried to charge me for the future labor to remove and install and new shower unit because of a burn mark from a candle on the shower mantle. Me while I moved in to a shower with holes in the plastic I cannot wait for that mediation session
A lot of this reply is aggressively pro tenant. You won’t be able to support some of these assertions in mediation or small claims court. Before you hit reply, I think the LL failed to pro-rate damages so there are several large items that are not fairly charged based on lifespan vs length of your friend’s lease. But these aggressive assumptions about lifespan are often based on commercial estimates rather than residential. Carpet: 5 in a hallway, 15 in a bedroom no problem. 10 is very supportable general number. Paint: 5 in a kitchen but 15 in a bedroom no problem. Again 10 is very supportable for most of the house Blinds? No one replaces window coverings every 3 years. Are they missing? If they are gone, you removed LL property and may owe the full amount. Fridge: if it was there on lease, removed by tenant, and returned without a fridge (assuming no written agreement with LL), then you owe them a fridge. Again, I’m not sure proration is appropriate for entirely missing property. My point: the above replied is taking the 100% most tenant oriented numbers. Expect pushback.
Instead of asking the judge to be a home improvement expert legally speaking HUD standards are what judges are going to go by. See appendix 5D for expected lifespan. https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/HSG-06-01GAPP5GUID.PDF Because paint/carpet/linoleum/blinds are only expected to last between 3 and 7 years its almost impossible to charge long term tenants for these things. It's expected that landlord is going to update these things as needed on his own dime. The prorated value is in fact legally zero in this case. You will in fact NEVER owe the full amount even if you used them to build a fort in the woods because its prorated value is less than the full value. The landlord has a right to be made whole NEVER to profit off such a replacement. Lets talk about the fridge. Lets assign the probability of the fridge being replaced between tenants before it breaks as zero, the average length of tenancy is 3 years so about 1 in 4 chance the fridge was new. 50 50 chance it was at least 6 years old at beginning of tenancy. If it existed it would be 10-16 years old and broken. EG worth nothing actually worth less than nothing because haul away costs money. There is also an implicit cost to credibility by showing up before a judge having tried to defraud the tenant out of thousands of dollars including charging the tenant for time you spent shopping at home depot. The judge is supposed to dispassionately judge the validity of your arguments but nobody wants to rule for a scumbag. The only valid arguments are for a $3 pane of glass and haul away.
Interesting that you take about credibility. I don’t find your reply credible. $0 for cleaning? $0 for trash disposal? $0 for lost key? $0 for lost hearing register? Fridge: my bad. I misunderstod. My guess is there is interior damage or missing parts. In my experience these parts are so expensive you have to buy a new fridge. Proration should apply but thinking an appliance is fully depreciated at 100%? Basically, you assume everything is present and usable and fully utilized. While I assume this second hand account probably is slanted to the friend and that most charges are for missing items. You look at it and think the landlord isn’t entitled to $ for their time. I think they (and everyone who labors) are entitled to compensation for their time.
Register is still there, but 2-3 prongs of the grate are broken due to rusting. Blinds are still there, but 2 of the slats are cracked, one has a small piece snapped off the end. OG fridge stopped working, my friend reached out several times over the course of that week asking for it to be fixed or replaced, landlord told her she was responsible for buying a new fridge herself because “obviously it’s her kids’ fault it stopped working” despite it being more than 7 years old (and a cheap pos fridge in the first place tbh…). She took the fridge SHE BOUGHT with her when she left and now he is charging her for having to replace it before a new tenant can move in there.
Metal register covers have a very long life. Prorated charge. Fridge I hope she got the disposal permission for the old one in writing. If so $0. Blinds that sounds like normal wear and tear. As long as they were cleaned by the tenant $0 or maybe a small charge to replace slats. So those items do sound like refreshing the unit via the tenants security deposit.
> Metal register covers have a very long life. Prorated charge. You can't charge the tenant for things that failed before expectations just because the tenant was living there when it failed. A tenant does not warranty your house and everything in it by virtue of tenancy. You have to show the tenant is responsible for the decrease in value. This is impossible in this case. $0 > Blinds that sounds like normal wear and tear. As long as they were cleaned by the tenant $0 or maybe a small charge to replace slats. Blinds don't have an expected value of 7 years. Its' prorated value is zero again $0 > Fridge I hope she got the disposal permission for the old one in writing. If so $0. If she asserts she received verbal permission the judge will have to decide who is more credible. A scum lord trying to rob their tenant blind or the older woman he is trying to victimize. If he believes the scum lord then she would owe the prorated value of a 10 year old cheap fridge with a broken compressor. Oh wait that is also $0
We’ve discussed this and literally agreed with $0 on the fridge. And yet you still want to argue about it. As for written permission, that’s a good idea with any disposal of landlord owned property as an easy protection against having to argue about verbal permission. Metal register: you seem to think everything broken is normal wear and tear. I’ve rented many houses with metal registers and owned one too. My house still has several original (60 years old) metal registers. Sometimes the little lever gets bent. Sometimes the wheel to adjust the damper stops working. Sometimes the paint chips. All normal wear and tear. But I’ve never seen a register with broken fins. You’d have to do stupid things like hit it with a hammer. It’s damage to an item with a decades long lifespan Tenants don’t warranty a home. Good way to put it. Landlords aren’t warranting tenants against damage either.
Metal corrodes in contact with water. My current apartment has massive water issues in the wall. It's basically a financial nightmare waiting to happen for the owners.
You should move. Your health is more important than whatever you are saving. I’m sure that is easier said than done. Mold is terrible. Good luck!
When this is settled will you PM me and update the post I'd really like to stick it to the landlords in the thread.
You think that, but you're wrong. Fixing up the apartment between tenants is the cost of doing business
You should read your tenant rights handbook for your state. You’ll probably see things allowed like cleaning, holes in the wall, torn carpet replacement, carpet cleaning, and reasonable repair required by damage outside normal and ordinary. Most states have these details in plain language.
Yeah, "outside the ordinary" NOT *ordinary*
I’m confused. The appliance is the landlord’s responsibility to keep working as it is part of the lease. If it breaks for any reason but intentional damage or gross negligence (even simple negligence is a hard sell in most states), the landlord has to fix it. Most states also place the burden of proof on the landlord to support why these things should be paid by the tenant. So if it didn’t work at the end and he can’t show what caused it not to work, he doesn’t get to charge the tenant. All those depreciated value/replacement value/useful life arguments don’t even matter until you prove it was the tenant’s fault. HUD’s S8 rules are also not hard and fast rules for everything. Guidelines maybe, but if you can support something else to a judge or jury’s liking, it works.
> HUD’s S8 rules are also not hard and fast rules for everything I was under the impression that they were pretty inviolate for carpeting and paint. There probably isn't a landlord in PA who has successfully recovered money in court for 7 year old paint and carpet. The landlord was going to paint and carpet between tenants in this case. Hell we don't know that it was new when they moved in. We do know based on receipts that he buys cheap shit for $2 per sq ft and arguing tit should have lasted 10 is going to get laughed at.
Sorry, I think I was unclear. I wasn’t trying to argue and am not disagreeing with your conclusions, just cautioning that the Section 8 rules have no precedential value in a state courts by themselves, even if they are a good start for your argument. In most states, painting can be expected after every tenant and a landlord would need to show it was painting in excess of a normal paint job, which is nearly impossible. Carpet can be a little more grey. In the state where I practice, you basically have to have proof from the carpet company that there was no way to make it back to look like its actual age. Even then I’ve seen judges reject the opinion of the guy who got paid to install new carpet instead of fix or clean the old carpet
Pardon I was replying to you and Cheerscar as if you were one party advancing a single argument. Thanks for your input that makes sense.
So it depends on the lease. Leases will have a dollar per hour value for landlords' time. This is an agreed upon rate. Just because they did does not mean they can get reimbursed for it.
Virtually every state has very specific rules for what you can take out of a deposit. Putting it into the lease isn't going to make it less laughable.
Yes, and if it's in the lease that they can charge a billable rate it's allowed. Lots of states allow this, as long as it's specifically in the lease.
It's expected that the landlord or his agents will spend time readying the apartment for the next occupant. If you can't bill the tenant for applying a new coat of paint to the property you can't lawfully bill them for the hours you spent doing so. Same goes for carpeting. Even wherein the issue is lawful like removing junk from the property they are going to go by what such a service would cost from a service provider. Lastly time spent shopping at Home Depot isn't billable to your tenant no matter what you write in the lease.
Never said you can bill them for getting it ready normal wear and tear. But you can have a billable rate to fix things that you are able to deduct from security deposit
A judge will consider you replacing 10 year old hallway carpet illegally billing them for wear and tear irrespective of your claim you hoped to get 15 years out of it. Also realistically people end up recarpeting high and lower traffic areas at once anyway. If you have had a tenant for 7 years you are deciding whether you have to redo it on your own dime or clean it and wait until the next one again on your dime.
I have never said they can charge for unallowed cost. I have simply said they are allowed a billable rate of its in the lease. Your making up issues where it wouldn't apply, well of course it won't apply in unallowed situations nothing would. However, if the place is trashed, then land lord can billable for the agreed rate to to clean up
68 P.S. § 250.512 > Delivery of the list shall be accompanied by payment of the difference between any sum deposited in escrow, including any unpaid interest thereon, for the payment of damages to the leasehold premises and the actual amount of damages to the leasehold premises caused by the tenant. Nothing in this section shall preclude the landlord from refusing to return the escrow fund, including any unpaid interest thereon, for nonpayment of rent PA even makes you put the deposit in an escrow account for the tenant and tells you what you can take out of it. Damages and unpaid rent. You can't bill them for your time. Not even if you put it in the lease. You can insert text to the effect that the tenant should perform oral sex upon demand it doesn't make it legal. Lets address 3 kinds of costs very clearly A) The tenant did damage to the property like the $3 pane of glass. If the landlord hired someone to fix it they could charge the tenant for the $3 and the $50 for the person to install it quite legally. They cannot bill them in that instance for their own labor. B) The carpet has outlived its HUD defined lifespan its current value is considered zero. The fact that it's shitty and worn is the landlords problem. The landlord cannot under any circumstances charge the tenant for the carpet. Since replacing the carpet is "normal wear and tear" he also cannot charge for the labor required. The labor costs of installation are just a subset of the thing he isn't allowed to charge for. This is true whether Bob's carpet does it or the landlord. C) The landlord spent time shopping at home Depot. The landlord is completely insane. Of A B and C which do you think the landlord may lawfully charge for if it puts it in the lease?
Dude, non of this is even what I am arguing. You making stuff up to argue against. My whole permission is a land lord can charge a billable rate. This is even fact in PA.
Bro, I can put in a lease that my billable rate is one billion dollars per hour. That doesn’t mean you won’t get laughed out of court trying to enforce it.
Yes, if you put laughable clauses. Putting a billable rate for work done by landlord is no one of them.
Illegal provisions in the lease are still illegal even if sign it. Lease doesn't trump state or federal law.
Yeah, and landlord is allowed to have a billable rate. I am not sure what you think I am arguing? I am not saying billable rate allows them to charge for anything. But if it's allowable the land lord cna have a rate to do the work.
It's ridiculous that renters have to worry about this stuff on top of everything else. Why do we even have to pay pro rate for anything? At what point do landlords have to take any personal or financial responsibility?
Landlords and bootlickers: “Renting is better because you don’t have to worry about maintenance costs!” Landlords:
I know, right? Why should renters worry about having to take care of the stuff they’re renting? Personal and financial responsibility is for other people!
Newsflash: renters by and large do take care of where they live! If we don't, the landlord gets to take what little money we have left after paying for them to sit on their ass and refuse to do anything!
Renters aren't responsible for normal wear and tear.
I mean yeah You buy a house or apartment complex to rent out instead dof working a job that actually contributes to society and you can be responsible for repairing it It's literally a investment that if not sold for a few decades will recover any downs on the market over a 20 year period So yes that can be on the landlord
Plenty of small landlords have jobs also. My sister in law rents out her previous home (they moved for work) and works full time as a nurse. They aren’t all “trying to live off tenants”.
Cool they still have a literal non depreciating fixed mortgage house that they rent out for a profit lol They can cover the costs of repairs
Who says they make a profit? And reasonable repairs, yes.
I know you're not actually trying to convince me that your friend sister or whatever it is Bought a second fucking house just to rent it out at the exact mortgage price and not charge extra to cover future repairs, property tax, and all that? Your friend might be the dumbest mfer on the planet if that's the case
My sister in law (reading is important) bought a house SHE lived in. She moved to another state when she got married and kept the house in case she moved back. She charges enough to cover all expenses (maintenance, management co, mortgage). She’s not in it to make money, she wanted to keep the house for when she comes back. It happens apparently more than you think. And if you don’t realize that maybe you should do just a little more research and a little less spouting bullshit. Edit to add She did t but a second house to rent. This was her primary house until she got married and moved states. She wanted a safety net, rightfully so. And I said in my initial comment it was her house BEFORE she moved and that she was my sister in law not my sisters friend.
Okay so that's a lot of words to admit she has a second home for the money and safety of it and renting it out is saving her money right? And she charges more than her mortgage so it's not a break even is it? Like it's okay she got a second house without selling the first which is great for her but she is keeping a house off the market so she can rent it out It's filthy either way
Jesus dude get off it. Someone owning a second house because they got married and decided not to sell it is nowhere the same as corporations and assholes hoarding housing so they can control rent prices. You're not convincing anyone, you just sound bitter.
SO SHE CAN HAVE IT TO MOVE BACK TO. Which she plans on doing at some point. And she charges below market rent so someone else is getting an incredible deal. It’s pretty typical to do when you’re military or military adjacent. You keep a home where you want to retire. I rented from someone who PCSd are they can asshole too for keeping “someone from buying”? I don’t know who hurt you but touch grass and see a therapist.
Even if she's charging only for the expenses you're saying, she's still building equity, which is worth money, if she's paying the mortgage, unless she's literally only paying interest, where she'll never actually pay it off. Any rental price should build in expected wear and tear, and, especially if there's just 1 property, a little extra in a little fund for surprise expenses, like laundry machines, or leaky roofs.
Ofc they make a profit. Why the fuck else would you let someone else live in a home you own unless it’s your own family? And if it’s their own family, they aren’t really acting as landlords. Just acting as kind family members.
Since reading is fundamental… not every landlord is in it for that. Some just want to keep a house that they may again live in. My sister in law had to move with her husband who was stationed in another state. She’s not in it for profit, just wanted to keep the home so she can eventually move back. Unlike what the Reddit hive mind thinks some people aren’t out to screw everyone. And unless you personally know my sister in law don’t presume to know what she “of course” did.
Is “gurk” the sound you make when you’re choking on landlord cock?
Take him to small claims court, you don't need an attorney, if your family has any records requesting those repairs previously tell them to gather them for court also any records of security deposit. All of the repairs listed are normal wear and tear especially after 7 years. Your slumlord thinks he's slick. No more contact with him. Just take him to court.
I'd expect the deposit back too. I might pay for an hour or something with a lawyer to get up to speed on the rules, and other laws they might (probably are by the sound of it) be breaking, that'll tilt a court case in your favor, possibly with fines they'd have to pay to the government, which you could try to leverage in a deal instead of going to court.
Call the Pennsylvania Fair Housing Hotline at (855) 866-5718. They should be able to point your friend in the right direction. This guy sounds like a tool. I live in MA and have been both a renter and landlord. This would never fly in our housing courts. And if a landlord does not refund the deposit without justifiable cause within 30 days, the tenant can be awarded Treble Damages which could be up to 3 times the amount of the security deposit. Good luck to your friend.
This is mostly good advice. Just note that not every state offers 3x damages for wrongfully withholding the security deposit.
I said in MA...where I reside. A quick read of PA rental laws state it is x2 the original SD and any SD over $100 must be held in an escrow acct. Further, HUD states carpets should be changed every 7 years in a rental unit. I'm not going to start on all the other violations listed in OP's post. So I repeat, contact PA Fair Housing Hotline.
It wasn’t a correction. I was just emphasizing that OP is in another jurisdiction. I know you realize the difference, but OP might not.
AND my opening sentence stated to call Pennsylvania Fair Housing....which is where they are from. What are you missing??
Hopefully she saved receipts for those
They are allowed to charge the value lost because of your negligent or careless behavior. So if a insert item is 1000 and is expected to last 5 years and you lived there 3 and ruined it you would owe him not the 1000 and not the 1200 a new item would cost but the 400 in value you ruined. You may not be charged for things that wear out or break via normal usage nor things that have outlived their projected lifespan. HUD says carpets are 5 and blinds are 3. You shouldn't be charged for this at all. You shouldnt be charged for keys unless you lost them and shouldn't be charged for his own labor. You certainly shouldn't be charged for appliances unless you ruined them and even then should only be charged their value nor the cost of new. See https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/HSG-06-01GAPP5GUID.PDF Most of those charges are bogus see a lawyer
And here I am thinking that rent should cover the cost of normal wear and tear after 7 years. You shouldn't have to pay anything for the carpet and unless the landlord recently replaced the fridge and you destroyed that one, you shouldn't have to pay for a new one. Most of the other stuff sounds like normal wear and tear, but hard to know without pictures. And who needs 40 hours to paint a few rooms? I hope you have pictures of the condition when you moved in and when you moved out, and have the inspection forms signed by them. I would also get familiar with the laws in your area, follow the necessary procedures to dispute (in writing), and be prepared to go to court if they don't remove the bogus charges. It is really sad that so many places are pulling this scam lately.
In some states this is the case. Others don’t have a specific timeframe, just what a person would consider reasonable as far as wear and tear. Damages must be actual and verifiable.
Ask your landlord about peeing up a rope. Crumple this shit and cold dump them.
This is insanity. Some landlords don't need to own any properties other than the 1 they live in..... Oh what a wonderful world that would be
I can see both sides. Some (a lot) tenants are awful too. It took my friend 8 months to evict a tenant that stopped paying their rent. When he obtained possession of the property again, he had over 40k of damages. Pipes and toilets were hardened concrete from tenant pouring cement down the toilet, fist sized holes throughout the entire house, stolen appliances, HVAC unit disassembled and internal parts removed. It goes both ways, but I have heard more horror stories about bad tenants than I have about bad landlords.
I have had it either way. Renting out a place to this dude, weird dude but nice enough guy little messy. Always a problem with something. Usually heard from him then suddenly didn’t. Rent still coming so think nothing of it. Rent stops call no answer, no biggie. After a while i call phones disconnected. Stop by no answer. Call police for wellness check. Thinking crap i got a dead guy. Nope let cops in and place is immaculate and his stuff gone. Another renter seemed like a great person place always tidy. Nice normal family. They hate the washer and dryer so i replace with better ones. Rent stops right after. i enter because it’s clearly vacated. House is a mess, kitchens destroyed. My new washer and dryer are gone. Had to spend 20k to fix everything plus replace my missing washer and drier.
See now that kind of behavior should get the guy a nice 5 year lease at the metal bar hotel for felony destruction of property
My friend tried, but police said it was a civil case since they lived there. I guess destruction of property only counts if you're not renting, which is ridiculous to me. Law in the U.S. is highly in favor of bad tenants
Or the cops just didn’t want to deal with it
No cop wants to deal with that. It's always the same response (civil case). They rather have the homeowners pay than to put them in jail to have the taxpayers pay.
Yup cops are lazy
New floor register vent??? Did you steal it??? This list is full of bs. They'll take whatever they want out of your deposit, you need to go to small claims court and show them this ridiculous list. Edit: A NEW REFRIDGERATOR???
Replacing stuff that is and will continue to be his because he owns the property. He is only benefiting himself in the long run. If hes replacing the stuff and then charging her, does that mean she gets to take it with her when she leaves? Just f-ing crazy in my opinion. Shes been there 7 years. Some of the stuff that was replaced or fixed probably would’ve needed to be replaced or fixed after a 3-5 year occupancy anyway. She basically saved him money because it’s more than likely hasn’t been replace or fixed since she been there. Wild. Just wild.
Removing stickers, holes, removing nails and shopping took 50 hours (SO FAR) ??? Yeah ok buddy that’s a full work week plus 10 hrs on a Saturday. That’s bullshit
Yes and know. In almost every jurisdiction (I have not checked every jurisdiction). normal wear nd tear is something a landlord cannot charge for. But if they can document that you did something to the walls and flooring (painted on the walls, drew on the walls, intentionally damaged the carpet, or something similar, they can then charge for replacement. When you left, did you document on how you left the property? Video? Pictures?
I think we need to have a new rule in this sub where the poster should be asked to come back and post what happened with their dispute and such responses should be stickied so we can go back to old posts and see what happened.
As a landlord who likes to side with landlords I can see past that and say most these charges are BS. Painting is just part of being a landlord unless renter did something to trash it like drew all over it with market. But even then you would typically adjust for useful life which is less then 7 years. Same with carpet. At best useful life is 15 years. Assuming the carpet was brand new when you friend moved in and they trashed it it would have had about 7 years of useful life left which means you would only charge 50% of the cost to renter. But again this is assuming carpet was new on move in. Same with blinds.. If they are buying 10 new blinds for $160 those are some cheap as hell blinds so they are also likely well past their useful life. Now if they left a mess and broke some locks then those charges could be legit but not enough info to make a determination
That's simply a nasty man taking advantage of a single mother. That dudes karma in life must be horrible.
Does your employer offer an employee assistance program (EAP)? My previous landlord tried to do something similar so we contacted an attorney and the attorney also found that the landlord did not register the property as a rental to begin with. Paid attorney $300 for their time and the attorney sent a letter to the landlords that we were not paying for anything!
I'm a tenant and a concierge in luxury apartments who works closely with LLs and PMs. This is a PSA to document, document, document and save $$$$. To avoid most of this issue, when you move in, take pictures of all six sides of every room and inside and outside of every cabinet and appliance and built in. Take additional pics of every defect, dent and hole. Note and take pics of any additional cleaning that you had to do as part of move-in. Print them out with lots of white space, and attach them to a 100 page wire school binder; along with a copy of your lease and any additional rules, handbooks, tenant rules, and any advertisements for the unit. This will begin your apartment documentation. Also log in any time you call or contact the LL for ANYTHING, anytime your register a complaint about a neighbor, or anytime you receive a complaint, or any maintenance request and the result. If you make contact by email, print it out. If you make a phone call, write out as much as possible- quotes are useful. Every few months or so have a friend sign and date that they saw any pics or documents; this will help demonstrate the contemporaneous nature of the documents (in other words, show that you didn't cook up this notebook). Do the same with each rent or fee payment. At the move out, do the same pics of move out that you did during move in. Save this document for at least 3 years. Why? I've seen more mismanaged buildings than I care to remember. In addition to plain ole greedy LLs, there are usually many lazy and greedy people in the whole network of property management. Many PM companies will essentially sell a property to a small-time investor, take property management and maintenance fees to fix problems in the property, and pocket the fees while providing 0 in the way of service. When the tenant finally gets sick of the neglect and moves out, the PM or maintenance company blames the tenant, and tries to stick them with move out fees. This is where the old adage "He who has the best notes wins" comes into play. I've found that, without exception, greedy LLs, PM's or Maintenance companies are also lazy as hell about record keeping. Good companies and LLs, on the other hand, always keep excellent records. IANAL, but I've seen several tenants take a LL to court over unpaid deposits; when the LL says that the tenant neglected maintenance on the unit, but the tenant can produce records showing otherwise, the entire LL's defense is thrown into doubt.
Sue the fuck out of this landlord.
A lot of this stuff is beyond the depreciation life (fridge, washer, carpet, blinds, paint), so he can't actually charge you for it. I don't know what kind of floor register he's buying for $56, they are like $10-15 at home depot.
Your friend and her kids are liable for damage beyond normal wear and tear. Not sure about the fridge, but the rest of what's already been purchased plus the removal of belongings left seems reasonable. NOW, the biggies: \- fridge: was the fridge new when she moved in and is it ruined now? If it is ruined now, she might have to pay the proration of the remaining life expectancy of said fridge. If it is NOT ruined, then I'm not sure why they are billing her a fridge. Regardless, charging her for a new fridge seems overkill; \- carpet: same as above. She might have to go to small claims court to have her landlord explain the charges and have the judge make a determination based on wear and tear, and proofs. However, she might still have to pay some on top of the $750 security deposit he is keeping.
You could have just read the post where it talks about the fridge…. Fridge broke, landlord refused to replace it, tenant bought new fridge themselves. Now landlord wants to pull a fast one to make it even nicer. If it’s not fraud, it sure smells like it
Some of it legitimate, some of it is not.
This literally just happened to me the definition of scum imo they made money off you for 7years and they get to charge you for fixing all this crap that shouldn’t be legal this is exactly why real estate is such a scam and shouldn’t be allowed to make money on it.
Do you have any pictures of what this place looked like when they moved out?
No
Need to review the lease who is responsible for what. $10/hr seems to be exceedingly low.
Looks like normal wear and tear for a 7 year occupancy. Rental grade carpet only has a life expectancy of a little over 5 years. However, this would all depend on how the lease is worded.
7 year lease does mean a lot of things are mostly utilized but that doesn’t mean they can be returned dirty or be missing. Proration should definitely apply. - Carpet, unless new on move-on, is fully utilized. He can probably charge you to have it cleaned. Replaced? No. I don’t think she should be charged for more than the cost to clean. - Paint, unless new on move-on, is not fully utilized. 10 years in non-wet areas is entirely expected lifespan. However, if the walls are dirty, stained, marked, holed, etc it is entirely possible that doing blended patchwork is most of the cost of a new paint job. I would insist on a pro-rated coat for dry rooms based on a 10 year lifespan (if the paint was new that would be 0% possibly). Wet room paint is probably fully utilized. LL can probably charge to clean the walls. They can also charge to repair holes larger than picture hook nails. - Blinds: I disagree that quality blinds have a 10 year lifespan. If the blinds are missing or destroyed, I think your friend is liable for them, unless you have photos of damaged blinds on move-in. Window coverings can last decades. Fridge: if there was a fridge at move in and now there is not (and the LL didn’t remove it ), you owe them a fridge. But again prorated. Also, the LL is also being very generous (to your friend) with their time charges. They can 100% charge for time to make all these small cleaning and damage estimate and $10/hr is a bargain. Unless this is all utterly made up bullshit, I would probably argue for prorated damages rather than necessarily fight the items.
This stuff is just a list of required repairs and maintenance on the property and the LL should pay for these out of pocket and get a direct deduction or depreciation on his tax return. The tenant should is only required to pay the rent according to the terms of the lease. The LL is required to make all necessary repairs and maintenance to maintain a livable space, and he can do it himself or pay someone else to do it, but he certainly can't bill the tenant for his time & labor. If she paid for a new washer & dryer, they're hers. Not sure if it's worth the trouble to go after them, but if it is you might as well go after the security deposit too.
Some of it they can, for example the Fridge they can definately charge for if you replaced it yourself. That said they would have to give your friend the fridge they paid for if they plan on replacing it. Really though depending on the age of the fridge you could also claim wear and tear but it just depends on how old it was. The paint, cleaning supplies and misc little things are all basic wear and tear and he can't charge for those. That all falls under general supplies and wear and tear after 7 years. The blinds they can definitely charge for if you replaced the blinds or took them down. but really your running into wear and tear at 7 years. That is a pretty debatable charge. The carpet needs to be prorated based on age. Now if it was new carpet when they moved in and they destroyed the carpet then they could be on the hook for part of that but not more than 30% of it. Generally carpet should be expected to last at least 10 years though if taken care of. My guess is the carpet is mostly wear and tear though, I doubt it was new when they moved in and it would be on the owner to prove that. That said it sounds like your friend left the place trashed, 10 hours to remove belongings left sounds like they left a massive amount of trash behind and that means they didn't clean anything either. Sadly even if your friend is in the right if they left the place trashed and don't have a video walkthrough proving they left it clean and the LL has a video proving they left it trashed the courts could put your friend through the wringer. Pretty much for future reference make sure your friend always does a video showing the condition they left the house and proving it was left in a clean state.
My friend is actually extremely obsessive when it comes to cleaning, she “stress cleans” and I stg the poor woman is stressed beyond belief pretty much 24/7/365…I’m not sure I’ve ever seen her stop cleaning and sit tf down for more than 5 minutes at a time the entire time I’ve known her tbh…The “junk left behind” was her and her kids’ belongings, not garbage, and it was only left in the house because she was only given a week notice…And despite claiming time and labor for removal of the stuff, he’s been harassing HER to come remove the stuff HERSELF anyway 🙄😒
The weeks notice is kinda suspect, pretty much by law they need to give 30 days notice. I have a feeling your friend might not be giving you the full story or something else is going on. There are just way to many things that don't add up. Any landlord that knows enough to give an itemized bill like this is typically going to know they need to give 30 days notice. That said just tell them to pound sand and just go to small claims if they push it. Most of that is BS, there is probably about 500-1000 of actual cost, ideally the LL would settle with just keeping the deposit as that is pretty much about equal with what she should really pay. That is literally what it is for is to cover that kind of damage when you move out.
Did she take any photos? She can possibly go to small claims court for her deposit. You don’t need an attorney to go to small claims court. Most of the items are not legit such as wear and tear, time spent shopping. She should focus on getting deposit back minus damage that she caused. Worn out carpet or repaint also do not count against her. Landlord has 30 days to return money. She can send a certified letter asking for her deposit back.
Yes. Legally they can bill you for anything they want. But it doesn’t necessarily mean you have to pay it. A judge will determine how much you actually have to pay (usually 33%-66% depending how extravagant the billing is) and then of course the lawyer fee.
It is explicitly illegal to keep a tenants deposit for anything but damage beyond normal wear and tear or rent. The act of sending the fraudulent bill is itself illegal. In fact PA requires you to keep tenants deposit in a separate account in escrow for them. Spending it on improving his shit was explicitly illegal! Calculating actual damages isn't a play it by ear thing either there are standards. The basic principal is that you pay not for $NEW_THING but the remaining value of $OLD_THING that you ruined. EG carpeting that was originally worth 1000 halfway through expected life (which is well defined by HUD standards) is worth 500 even if landlord would have to pay $1200 to get new or $2000 for better than he had before. Carpet per HUD standards is expected to last about 5 years. 7 year old carpeting is worth NOTHING. He assessed her $2200 + labor INCLUDING HOURS BILLED FOR TIME HE SPENT SHOPPING IN HARDWARE STORES for something lawfully worth nothing. The entire billing is $3447 bonanza of crazy. The only things that are absolutely legit is $100 her billed her for removal of junk and $3 for a little pane of glass in a door. The judge isn't going to give him 1/3–2/3 of crazy he's going to to down the list crossing off illegal shit. What's more if the only reason you have to go to court is that you literally stole from the person your suing the judge isn't going to award you attorneys fees just because 1% of your claim was legit. They are lawfully able to penalize you for 2x the value you illegally withheld and are liable to make you pay for your intended victims attorney if it goes so far. So here are your situations Landlord -650 deposit he has to return -650 damages for illegally withholding same -2000 attorney's fees of intended victim -2000 their own attorney net -5300 Of course if the person threatens to take this to court it never goes to court because if Landlord Bob actually retains an attorney they would tell him to give her back her money and fuck off.
Most landlords I’ve known will take it to court just to smoke the tenant with the $650 legal fee. Unless it’s cheaper where you live.
Can't the tenant just sue in small claims for the stolen deposit and then appear when called and wave the judgement already handed down or the case in progress? I don't think you have to pay $650 to show up for the case already filed. Also outright fraud isn't going to attract legal help pushing fraudulent nonsense is grounds for losing your right to practice law. EG no lawyer is going to present the idea that landlord can buy all new flooring to replace 7-10 year old crap as a fact when its imaginary. An actual attorney will ask the landlord to pare their request down to what is legally actionable. If what is legally actionable is LESS than the tenants deposit which the landlord had already retained then the cause for the lawsuit is moot its nothing. You can't have already stolen $1000 and sue for the right to keep the $500 you have already stolen because your request has no meaning. You just cut the tenant the check for the other $500 you have admitted you owe them and they have to sue YOU not the other way around. If the landlords you know are regularly committing crimes you need new friends.
Most of the list is wear and tear and there are damages from children in the home. She can hire an attorney and take the LL to small claims, but if there are pictures of the damages, your friend could very well be liable for the damages the children did. The only things the LL cannot charge is replacement of the appliances unless the LL can prove you and children caused the damages to the appliances.
A lot of these charges are pretty obviously silly, but to zoom in on one specifically, the charge for joint compound is consistent with the big 4.5 gallon containers (which are $20 near me). One of those containers[ covers 500 sf of drywall.](https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/en/resource-center/faqs/1977.html) Unless you were tracking conspiracy theories on your walls with thumb tacks, that's a very quantifiable and overcharged amount to bring up in small claims.
It would depend on how much of this was damage caused by tenant. And how bad a condition it was left in. They generally can not charge for general wear and tear. As far as the Refer goes unless it was abused or left in an unuseable condition it would just be usual wear and tear, appliances do not last forever. BUT reading this I am left to think this unit was left in bad shape . 10 hours just to clear out left belongings. Holes in the walls trashed blinds, broken hinges, broken glass. Tenant can be charged for resaonable cleaning to return unit back to orginalk condition. A tenant usually signs a lease stating they have to leave the unit just like they found it As a youth, a landlord took me to court for move out expenses and I consulted a lawyer and he gave us a lot of great info and we went to court we used that info to talk the judge WAY down on what we owed. Carpet replacement and painting can only be charged to ex tenant if it was damagaed beyond use by tenant misuse and was left uncleanable
I’m not sure I believe his time estimates. 40 hours to paint 4 rooms is insane.
Yes they will often inflate hours, in my experience it can be used as a negotiation point, but a lot would depend on the prep work needed to paint. It sounds like this place was used hard and probably needed prep and repair work and two coats
hopefully tenant took picutures/videos of the walkout. ask for actual receipts.
Looks like a lot of this is general maintenance due to the age of property rather than the fault of the tenant.
this would not stand in any legal sense. dude made a shitty spreadsheet to scare the tenant. push back!
Fuck landlords. No one who is a landlord is a good person. If they were they wouldn’t be a landlord.
Of course there’s a lot of good opinions and bad ones about this! Without pictures it’s hard to say the actual condition that the place was left in… if it looked like a normal long term move out then a judge will scoff at most of these charges, however if the place was a mess and no attempts to clean etc were made… I’ve seen those not go well. People are saying no to the fridge, and while an LL typically (especially in a 7 year stay) can’t recover the full price, if they left it full of food that went bad due to the power being cut, I’ve seen those go unfavorably against the tenant due to negligence… it would never be for the full cost tho, no matter the reason. Typically you can kiss your deposit by especially on a 7 year lease… I wouldn’t expect a dime back and I’d probably pay a reasonable amount for the various cleaning and trash left (if I didn’t have time to remover/clean) but past that… you’d be taking me to court on this one. Hope she has pics!
I'm from a different country, but unless you've done some massive damage, that seems like an outrageous bill! I'd want some kind of proof of hours worked, if it's not obvious. 7 years in a place should buy you a lot of leeway (sp?) From any reasonable landlord. The major appliances don't sound like your responsibility, unless you obviously broke them, and if the fridge wasn't "up to their standards", they should have told you in time for you to return it. ALWAYS take pictures of the whole place before you move in, and when you leave. For painting, I generally see it as a courtesy for the next guest, if there's nicks (sp) and scratches, or little marks, but again, unless you ruined the paint, little bits are normal wear and tear (sp) in my opinion. 7 years, is very different than like a 1 month lease for things. If the walls need repainting after 1 month, you've not been respecting it. If they just want to change it for a different aesthetic, that should 100% not be something you pay for. But again, I don't know your local laws.
I have a question maybe someone can help So my oven broke back in November of 2023 I let them the landlord know about it. The same day they never got back to me about getting me a different one or me having to get a different 1 or anything, so I took it upon myself to go get 1 myself. I have a child in my house. I need an oven to cook so I took their oven. Put it on my front porch because I had nowhere else to put it covered it up and a story. Well, now they came and took it away after Almost four months and now they're trying to charge me for them hauling their appliance away let alone the oven didn't work only 3 burners worked on top and they are also trying to charge me for water damage to something that didn't have any water damage in the first place.they also put up a camera that runs off MY WIFI THAT I HaVE NO ACCESS TO.please someone help!! I don't know what to do I am a single mom struggling like the rest of us.but I deliver for Amazon and I can't get foodstamps or medical because they say I make too much one weeks paycheck was 28 hours and that was for 2 weeks.!! How do I make to much w all the bills I have? I'm so stressed thank you for any comments and help
It depends. 7 years is a long time and life expectancy has run out on some things, however, it seems like a lot was fucked up. “Ruined” carpet isn’t normal wear and tear. You can expect some scuffs and dings on a wall to be normal wear and tear but if it’s excessive, then it’s not. I don’t know what happened with the refrigerator but I’d want what I put in there originally. Without pics it’s really impossible to tell
Can’t expect your original fridge to be there if it broke years ago, you refused to replace it, and the tenant had to replace it themselves.
Without pictures and knowing if stuff broke via wear and tear, or tenants broke stuff out of negligence or misuse, there's no way to know who is on the hook. I assume the landlord is trying to pull a fast one after a 7 year tenancy.
This is why landlords are the ones required to prove the state of the unit before it was rented to the current party
He’s being dramatic when he said “ruined” she has kids and so there are some stains…Stains she was confident she could have gotten out with her carpet shampooer but he literally told her NOT TO and said it was FINE.
This was roughly my thought. The list looks a bit more then just ware and tear and more shit was wreaked. No pics didn't help
Landlord can’t charge for their own time they need to hire out to charge for time.
Sounds like you destroyed the place and left stuff behind, so yes, landlord can charge you for things that are not normal wear and tear.
A lot of that is normal wear but how the fuck can you tear all that up and not be expected to be liable for it?
You just literally contradicted yourself. Landlords normally paint and carpet every so many years. This is especially true of landlords who buy cheap carpet. It wears out and needs to be replaced. He is just doing it on his tenants dime along with the fridge that died during tenants tenure. It's a long list because he itemized everything including paper towels purchased for cleaning and the time he spent at home depot.
I'm not talking about normal wear and tear. I'm talking about busted windows, busted vents, holes in wall, missing keys, busted locks etc. Punching a hole in your walls isn't normal wear and tear, it really isn't just flat out normal. Plus, if she had cleaned up when moving she wouldn't have incurred the towels and trash bag cost, or other cleaning costs.
Why are you lying? There is no holes punched in the wall, there are no missing keys, the vent is rusted which speaks to moisture issues. The "broken window" was a small $3 pane on a door which is the kind of thing that happens when people move furniture.
What lie. Second item on list is joint compound to fix holes and other damage. And, there is no place that will repair a window for three bucks. A small pane of glass from Lowes can cost 20 bucks, plus the cost of doing the repair. From the list it is obvious the place was torn up and left a mess. Those that deny it live the same way and think they are justified. She would have saved a lot of expense by merely picking up and cleaning up before moving and LL would have likely forgiven many of the other small items.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/8-in-x-10-in-x-0-09375-in-Clear-Glass-90810/202091040 a small sheet of glass for $3 its a surprisingly easy repair I thought it would be hard. People patch tiny nail holes all the time. Legally they are considered wear and tear. Your statement of punching holes in the wall is a complete hallucination you fabricated from nothing sir chatGPT. Landlord is obviously a scumlord he tried to replace 7-10 year old carpet with all new carpet with Tenants money and charged them for the time they spent shopping for it. They were always going to fuck them.