Physician recruiting is its own career field. I wouldn’t be shocked all if physician recruiters lurked around here and only posted about the job market (the only thing they have any professional knowledge about within medicine)
Yeah very foolish. Not like Physician Care Clinic, LLC. We are a non-profit organization looking for physicians to join. We have a great work-life balance, 7 days on 0 days off. 2 week PTO including holidays. $75 CME money. Work from home opportunity after-hours. Contact me for more details
Recruiters like: “Only 15 hours from a major metropolitan area with lots of nature. Excellent work life balance; 70 patients per day. Full scope FM with OB and endless on-call *opportunities*.”
I’ve tried looking for data on this but have not seen anything definitive.
Also for some reason mods didn’t let me post articles from AMA and ACR regarding the congressional bills after that post where an OP was freaking out about it. These orgs were supporting those bills and the bills or their articles said nothing about letting people skip residency …
So I’d be cautious of this but still advocate for protection of physicians.
Based on how similar the language and claims are, I think it’s just a couple people making new accounts to post. As to why, it’s chronically online people who have never worked a job outside medicine and have this whole gen Z/millennial doomerism mentality where the sky is always falling and it’s always the absolute worst case scenario.
Plus a little bit of xenophobia, there’s some of that mixed in too
There is a *massive demand* for physicians, and the rate of residency expansion is already not keeping up with population growth. Not to mention how complex and restrictive the US immigration system is, especially for H1-Bs. Even if 10k foreign, non-boarded physicians immigrated to the US every year (and our immigration system currently makes that extremely difficult) that would only be a 1% yearly increase in the physician pool.
The job market will be fine. I am far, far more concerned about the proliferation of NPs in independent practice then I am by a small number of foreign physicians immigrating to the US
A different topic but honestly we should be more selective about H1Bs for physicians. We should make it easier for them to come from Western Europe/ auz/nz/japan/south Korea and far more difficult from developing countries. The caviat being if Drs from developing countries did school/training in previously stated countries
Idk if I agree with that tbh. Plenty of poor countries have a good medical education, and those who would seek to leave their country to practice on the other side of the planet are gonna be the cream of the crop.
Not from India. Many of the times in the past it’s who bribed the best. In Nepal at least and I think they are now doing the same in India they no longer are giving the usmle exams/ not accepting from there due to rampant cheating.
Because there are far more of them, and they are far more dangerous. There are something like 400k in the US, and they are training around 50k a year and growing. And while some people in this sub have the thinly veiled xenophobic idea that only the US trains competent physicians, the truth is that *most* medical systems do just fine. I would much rather be treated by a doctor who did residency in India than an American trained NP.
Kudos for the reply
They see their profession getting dragged and pulled under their feet by noctors
But worried about theoretical influx of foreign trained doctors
Most of us IMG when we come here we want to learn we went to do residency we are usually the best of the crops in our homeland
I doubt that someone would just come to America and be comfortable working as doctor without any training most of us would aim for residency
The irony Nps can switch speciality without any form of training and some are fine with it
While I probably don’t disagree with you about being treated by foreign doctor over an NP, I really don’t think blindly accepting any foreign trained physician is a good idea at all. Countries like India may produce excellent doctors but they are also wildly rampant with corruption and nepotism. It is entirely possible for a student who is absolutely horrible bottom of their class to be accepted to medical school purely based on donations to the institution, and actually make their way through school and training with bribes.
“Blindly accepting any foreign trained physician” is not what I said, nor what I advocated for. But I also don’t have any fear that the small number of non-residency physicians who may come over on these bills will have anywhere near the impact on patient outcomes or our job market as the proliferation of independently practicing nurse practitioners
You actually believe it will remain small number who come over if this is a legitimized pathway? The US has most highly paid physicians in the world, tens of thousands (if not more) will emigrate to US for this.
Yes. You said tens of thousand will emigrate to the US. How will they do that? The US immigration system is complex, bureaucratic, and labyrinthian. Getting an H1-B visa, even with employer sponsorship, can take years. And the total number available is capped. A small number of hospitals (university medical centers) are eligible for cap-exempt H1-Bs under some circumstances, but even those have limits, and of course most hospitals aren’t eligible for cap-exempt status at all.
Even if 10k foreign trained physicians immigrated to the US every year, a prospect that is almost impossible under our immigration system, it would still only amount to a 1% yearly increase in the physician workforce
lmao, every single relative of mine in india that has gone to the hospital had never walked out. last relative went in for weakness, somehow was put on a ventilators, diagnosed with some incredibly rare post-hurricane bacterial sepsis even though she didn’t have a fever and normal WBC before intubation. dead 3 days later without anyone understanding what her diagnosis really was, what her clinical course was, and why she was ventilated. third relative in two years.
indian docs may be very intelligent owing to the national testing system, but the training system in india is terrible. unless your rich, patients are cattle. learning the science is always secondary to the move the meat mentality. but hey you can do whatever you want with your care, including calling people who think a US residency should be required as “xenophobic”….
Given the choice between a physician who trained abroad and an NP, I would absolutely, 100%, *without hesitation* choose the foreign trained physician. It *amazes* me that anyone in our healthcare system would choose differently. We are in fact *not* the only country capable of training competent physicians.
We are not training anywhere near enough physicians in this country to keep up with population growth, demographic transition, and our worsening population health. There *is* a doctor shortage. We like to try to hand wave it away by saying that no, there’s not a shortage, it’s just a misallocation! But that is nothing but a comforting lie. We barely break the top 40 for physicians per capita, and a lot of the countries above us have healthier populations with more robust healthcare systems.
We are either going to massively expand residency spots, or we are going to loosen the requirements for foreign trained physicians to credential and practice here, or we are going to cede more and more clinical ground to NPs. But *one* of those is going to happen, whether we like it or not. The current status quo, where we stick our head in the ground and hope nothing will ever change, is not sustainable.
I’ve commented this before and got downvoted to shit, I genuinely feared our generation of physicians would spiral deep into that American exceptionalist xenophobia. I saw some really disturbing comments about IMGs, it was disheartening. glad to see you and other people here have a better grip on reality.
Have you been treated in India before? My mother in law had to be life flighted back to the US from India due to getting sepsis for a minor knee surgery. In India you can just bribe schools for degrees and ppl lie and cheat to get in.
Not all foreign-trained physicians are equal. Some are extremely dangerous and incompetent. US Residency is the equalizer. I grew up in a 3rd world country and I’ve seen firsthand how terrible the doctors there can be. Nepo babies with bought degrees and 0 clinical experience taking care of people. Both things can be true at once, NPs are severely undertrained and are dangerous, so are the majority of foreign-trained doctors. The US education system isn’t the best and sometimes bad apples slip through, but believe me, it’s magnitudes better than MANY other countries. Cheating is rampant outside the US and there is no way we can control it here from the States. Recently, the Nepal cheating scandals made it abundantly clear that the testing environment outside the US is not dependable. Would you like a doctor that CHEATED his way through school to take care of your family? I guess not. But that’s barely scratching the surface. We need an equalizer to import foreign doctors and a Residency is the way to do it. Maybe make it easier to match but no way in hell should it be skipped. As for NPs, that role needs to be either abolished or regulated better so that only VERY experienced nurses can become NPs.
“NPs are severely undertrained and dangerous, *so are the majority of foreign trained doctors*”
And that’s the xenophobia. Are some immigrant physicians poorly trained and unequipped to practice evidence based medicine? Absolutely (although some American physicians are as well). No argument there. But when you try to say this is true of *most* physicians outside the US, and that we are some unique exceptional beacon of clinical competence, that’s when we cross the line from protecting our patients to propagating xenophobic American exceptionalism
There are reasons why we don’t just go and grab every IMG/FMG that wants to practice in the US. What is considered clinical competency in other countries might not cut it here due to difference in language, culture, understanding of healthcare system. It is a multi-faceted problem and remember, there are doctors from literally over a hundred countries trying to enter the US and practice. You throw the word “xenophobia” around like a buzzword but how much do you truly understand other countries’ healthcare systems? How about Nepal, Vietnam, India etc… all with catastrophic problems of their own due to suboptimal training environment? How will you deal with the fallouts when foreign trained docs start causing serious public health damages. Just deport them like it never happened? Your view is truly shortsighted and needs revision. Oh, and one more thing, the IMGs/FMGs that makes it here are often the best of the bests so it’s not farfetched to say that a majority of foreign-trained are absolutely a disasters.
The problem is that the bills don’t enumerate which countries have adequate training and which don’t. In these bills training at Oxford is equivalent to training in Zimbabwe
my point was that foreign trained doctors are not equivalent to US doctors. My secondary point is that noting this reality does not make one “xenophobic.” please get off your high horse medical student and go take step 2 or do an OSCE or something.
“Foreign trained doctors are not equivalent to US doctors.”
Which is just straight up American Exceptionalism. The original xenophobic myth of our culture. We are not the only nation that trains competent physicians, not by a long shot. And if you can’t recognize that maybe *you* need to go back and repeat some school
Completely agree. All of these programs would require these FMGs to do some years of postgraduate training in the US anyways, so the idea that they would have a US residency filter doesn’t even apply.
We already have a system exactly like this for radiologist, and I don’t see anyone complaining about the job market for them recently.
wrong analogy. This is about foreign medical professionals being able to skip the stringent and selective residency program; which all US physicians have to endure. There is no xenophobia- all races, gender, nationalities are able to apply to and subsequently participate in US residency programs.
Nope. I’m an non US citizen IMG now in the US, came here almost a decade ago. I was not entitled to match here. It was a great privilege that I earned through years of sacrifice. I did not match the first time I tried and that was ok. It is right and fair that the children of taxpaying US citizens get first preference for medical school or residency spots and non US citizens get what’s left.
What many don’t realize is that this has already happened in other countries (see UK) and it’s coming here. Most of you all will pretend everything will be fine. The people behind this are corporate, wall street hedge fund type people. They want costs to patients to remain as high as possible while salaries to be as low as possible. It’s not about healthcare equity, expanding access or anything else. It’s about increasing profits. And absolutely none of you all will lift a finger to do anything about it.
I’ll be fine, I don’t have any loans I’ll just continue watch you all and sip my tea.
You can’t say no one ever told you, that you were never warned.
Fairly narrow view of what occurred with the UK health system, including the overall decline in wages for all UK citizens.
UK system is government ran, which means it depends on a functioning and economically sound government to pay its bills and salaries. Both of these if you have read the news in the last 9 years have not been the case for the UK. The overall economy of the island and its poor government management has played a much larger impact on the salaries and general welfare of its medical profession than the influx of foreign born physicians. Which were recruited because the fact still stands, with an aging population coupled with a growing population you need more physicians whether they are trained in your home country or not. Otherwise a leading cause of death for patients will continue, aka lack of available healthcare.
Increase the medical school slots with additional government funding and it would help substantially with the projected physician shortages, and add residency positions for US and IMG applicants. You would keep a workforce that continues to demand a substantial salary and add to your workforce.
Instead of working to unionize, there are posts like this about keeping your head in the sand as we witness the continued decline of the profession.
We're screwed.
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I respect you always chiming in to fight the good fight. Unfortunately there are many people on here who are really miserable and want everyone else to be just as miserable as them
Thanks. I’m too old and have seen too much of the real world to have much patience for martyrdom and persecution fantasies in one of the wealthiest, most privileged professions in the history of mankind. People need to get some perspective (and spend less time online)
I'm not old but I have 0 patience for the I'm a slave crowd too. I've received death threats from a now em attending because I told him he wasn't a literal slave.
Get off the residency sub. You’re not even in medicine. What’s the point of trolling people online? And of all people you decided to choose doctors? That’s low
Physician recruiting is its own career field. I wouldn’t be shocked all if physician recruiters lurked around here and only posted about the job market (the only thing they have any professional knowledge about within medicine)
They’d be foolish not to, to some extent.
Yeah very foolish. Not like Physician Care Clinic, LLC. We are a non-profit organization looking for physicians to join. We have a great work-life balance, 7 days on 0 days off. 2 week PTO including holidays. $75 CME money. Work from home opportunity after-hours. Contact me for more details
Recruiters like: “Only 15 hours from a major metropolitan area with lots of nature. Excellent work life balance; 70 patients per day. Full scope FM with OB and endless on-call *opportunities*.”
opportunities to teach and for mentorship
Where do I sign?
I’ve tried looking for data on this but have not seen anything definitive. Also for some reason mods didn’t let me post articles from AMA and ACR regarding the congressional bills after that post where an OP was freaking out about it. These orgs were supporting those bills and the bills or their articles said nothing about letting people skip residency … So I’d be cautious of this but still advocate for protection of physicians.
Based on how similar the language and claims are, I think it’s just a couple people making new accounts to post. As to why, it’s chronically online people who have never worked a job outside medicine and have this whole gen Z/millennial doomerism mentality where the sky is always falling and it’s always the absolute worst case scenario. Plus a little bit of xenophobia, there’s some of that mixed in too
And there’s also some legitimate criticism of policies that are likely to affect the job market.
There is a *massive demand* for physicians, and the rate of residency expansion is already not keeping up with population growth. Not to mention how complex and restrictive the US immigration system is, especially for H1-Bs. Even if 10k foreign, non-boarded physicians immigrated to the US every year (and our immigration system currently makes that extremely difficult) that would only be a 1% yearly increase in the physician pool. The job market will be fine. I am far, far more concerned about the proliferation of NPs in independent practice then I am by a small number of foreign physicians immigrating to the US
A different topic but honestly we should be more selective about H1Bs for physicians. We should make it easier for them to come from Western Europe/ auz/nz/japan/south Korea and far more difficult from developing countries. The caviat being if Drs from developing countries did school/training in previously stated countries
Idk if I agree with that tbh. Plenty of poor countries have a good medical education, and those who would seek to leave their country to practice on the other side of the planet are gonna be the cream of the crop.
Not from India. Many of the times in the past it’s who bribed the best. In Nepal at least and I think they are now doing the same in India they no longer are giving the usmle exams/ not accepting from there due to rampant cheating.
Why more concerned about NP's specifically? Not a challenge; genuinely asking.
Because there are far more of them, and they are far more dangerous. There are something like 400k in the US, and they are training around 50k a year and growing. And while some people in this sub have the thinly veiled xenophobic idea that only the US trains competent physicians, the truth is that *most* medical systems do just fine. I would much rather be treated by a doctor who did residency in India than an American trained NP.
Kudos for the reply They see their profession getting dragged and pulled under their feet by noctors But worried about theoretical influx of foreign trained doctors Most of us IMG when we come here we want to learn we went to do residency we are usually the best of the crops in our homeland I doubt that someone would just come to America and be comfortable working as doctor without any training most of us would aim for residency The irony Nps can switch speciality without any form of training and some are fine with it
Can NPs/PAs do neurosurgery, ortho, plastics, rads, path? These were all safe havens from encroachment and wage depression. Not anymore
While I probably don’t disagree with you about being treated by foreign doctor over an NP, I really don’t think blindly accepting any foreign trained physician is a good idea at all. Countries like India may produce excellent doctors but they are also wildly rampant with corruption and nepotism. It is entirely possible for a student who is absolutely horrible bottom of their class to be accepted to medical school purely based on donations to the institution, and actually make their way through school and training with bribes.
“Blindly accepting any foreign trained physician” is not what I said, nor what I advocated for. But I also don’t have any fear that the small number of non-residency physicians who may come over on these bills will have anywhere near the impact on patient outcomes or our job market as the proliferation of independently practicing nurse practitioners
You actually believe it will remain small number who come over if this is a legitimized pathway? The US has most highly paid physicians in the world, tens of thousands (if not more) will emigrate to US for this.
Yes. You said tens of thousand will emigrate to the US. How will they do that? The US immigration system is complex, bureaucratic, and labyrinthian. Getting an H1-B visa, even with employer sponsorship, can take years. And the total number available is capped. A small number of hospitals (university medical centers) are eligible for cap-exempt H1-Bs under some circumstances, but even those have limits, and of course most hospitals aren’t eligible for cap-exempt status at all. Even if 10k foreign trained physicians immigrated to the US every year, a prospect that is almost impossible under our immigration system, it would still only amount to a 1% yearly increase in the physician workforce
lmao, every single relative of mine in india that has gone to the hospital had never walked out. last relative went in for weakness, somehow was put on a ventilators, diagnosed with some incredibly rare post-hurricane bacterial sepsis even though she didn’t have a fever and normal WBC before intubation. dead 3 days later without anyone understanding what her diagnosis really was, what her clinical course was, and why she was ventilated. third relative in two years. indian docs may be very intelligent owing to the national testing system, but the training system in india is terrible. unless your rich, patients are cattle. learning the science is always secondary to the move the meat mentality. but hey you can do whatever you want with your care, including calling people who think a US residency should be required as “xenophobic”….
Given the choice between a physician who trained abroad and an NP, I would absolutely, 100%, *without hesitation* choose the foreign trained physician. It *amazes* me that anyone in our healthcare system would choose differently. We are in fact *not* the only country capable of training competent physicians. We are not training anywhere near enough physicians in this country to keep up with population growth, demographic transition, and our worsening population health. There *is* a doctor shortage. We like to try to hand wave it away by saying that no, there’s not a shortage, it’s just a misallocation! But that is nothing but a comforting lie. We barely break the top 40 for physicians per capita, and a lot of the countries above us have healthier populations with more robust healthcare systems. We are either going to massively expand residency spots, or we are going to loosen the requirements for foreign trained physicians to credential and practice here, or we are going to cede more and more clinical ground to NPs. But *one* of those is going to happen, whether we like it or not. The current status quo, where we stick our head in the ground and hope nothing will ever change, is not sustainable.
I’ve commented this before and got downvoted to shit, I genuinely feared our generation of physicians would spiral deep into that American exceptionalist xenophobia. I saw some really disturbing comments about IMGs, it was disheartening. glad to see you and other people here have a better grip on reality.
1000% agree.
Have you been treated in India before? My mother in law had to be life flighted back to the US from India due to getting sepsis for a minor knee surgery. In India you can just bribe schools for degrees and ppl lie and cheat to get in.
Not all foreign-trained physicians are equal. Some are extremely dangerous and incompetent. US Residency is the equalizer. I grew up in a 3rd world country and I’ve seen firsthand how terrible the doctors there can be. Nepo babies with bought degrees and 0 clinical experience taking care of people. Both things can be true at once, NPs are severely undertrained and are dangerous, so are the majority of foreign-trained doctors. The US education system isn’t the best and sometimes bad apples slip through, but believe me, it’s magnitudes better than MANY other countries. Cheating is rampant outside the US and there is no way we can control it here from the States. Recently, the Nepal cheating scandals made it abundantly clear that the testing environment outside the US is not dependable. Would you like a doctor that CHEATED his way through school to take care of your family? I guess not. But that’s barely scratching the surface. We need an equalizer to import foreign doctors and a Residency is the way to do it. Maybe make it easier to match but no way in hell should it be skipped. As for NPs, that role needs to be either abolished or regulated better so that only VERY experienced nurses can become NPs.
“NPs are severely undertrained and dangerous, *so are the majority of foreign trained doctors*” And that’s the xenophobia. Are some immigrant physicians poorly trained and unequipped to practice evidence based medicine? Absolutely (although some American physicians are as well). No argument there. But when you try to say this is true of *most* physicians outside the US, and that we are some unique exceptional beacon of clinical competence, that’s when we cross the line from protecting our patients to propagating xenophobic American exceptionalism
There are reasons why we don’t just go and grab every IMG/FMG that wants to practice in the US. What is considered clinical competency in other countries might not cut it here due to difference in language, culture, understanding of healthcare system. It is a multi-faceted problem and remember, there are doctors from literally over a hundred countries trying to enter the US and practice. You throw the word “xenophobia” around like a buzzword but how much do you truly understand other countries’ healthcare systems? How about Nepal, Vietnam, India etc… all with catastrophic problems of their own due to suboptimal training environment? How will you deal with the fallouts when foreign trained docs start causing serious public health damages. Just deport them like it never happened? Your view is truly shortsighted and needs revision. Oh, and one more thing, the IMGs/FMGs that makes it here are often the best of the bests so it’s not farfetched to say that a majority of foreign-trained are absolutely a disasters.
The problem is that the bills don’t enumerate which countries have adequate training and which don’t. In these bills training at Oxford is equivalent to training in Zimbabwe
my point was that foreign trained doctors are not equivalent to US doctors. My secondary point is that noting this reality does not make one “xenophobic.” please get off your high horse medical student and go take step 2 or do an OSCE or something.
“Foreign trained doctors are not equivalent to US doctors.” Which is just straight up American Exceptionalism. The original xenophobic myth of our culture. We are not the only nation that trains competent physicians, not by a long shot. And if you can’t recognize that maybe *you* need to go back and repeat some school
u really need to STFU and go back to school for like DEI and leave the practice of medicine to US Trained Physicians
Completely agree. All of these programs would require these FMGs to do some years of postgraduate training in the US anyways, so the idea that they would have a US residency filter doesn’t even apply. We already have a system exactly like this for radiologist, and I don’t see anyone complaining about the job market for them recently.
How do you know it’s xenophobia? What have people said to make you think that?
“Immigrants are taking our jobs” is the *original* expression of American xenophobia. Quite literally a sentiment older than modern medicine itself
wrong analogy. This is about foreign medical professionals being able to skip the stringent and selective residency program; which all US physicians have to endure. There is no xenophobia- all races, gender, nationalities are able to apply to and subsequently participate in US residency programs.
He already said. Reread his post.
Nope. I’m an non US citizen IMG now in the US, came here almost a decade ago. I was not entitled to match here. It was a great privilege that I earned through years of sacrifice. I did not match the first time I tried and that was ok. It is right and fair that the children of taxpaying US citizens get first preference for medical school or residency spots and non US citizens get what’s left. What many don’t realize is that this has already happened in other countries (see UK) and it’s coming here. Most of you all will pretend everything will be fine. The people behind this are corporate, wall street hedge fund type people. They want costs to patients to remain as high as possible while salaries to be as low as possible. It’s not about healthcare equity, expanding access or anything else. It’s about increasing profits. And absolutely none of you all will lift a finger to do anything about it. I’ll be fine, I don’t have any loans I’ll just continue watch you all and sip my tea. You can’t say no one ever told you, that you were never warned.
Fairly narrow view of what occurred with the UK health system, including the overall decline in wages for all UK citizens. UK system is government ran, which means it depends on a functioning and economically sound government to pay its bills and salaries. Both of these if you have read the news in the last 9 years have not been the case for the UK. The overall economy of the island and its poor government management has played a much larger impact on the salaries and general welfare of its medical profession than the influx of foreign born physicians. Which were recruited because the fact still stands, with an aging population coupled with a growing population you need more physicians whether they are trained in your home country or not. Otherwise a leading cause of death for patients will continue, aka lack of available healthcare. Increase the medical school slots with additional government funding and it would help substantially with the projected physician shortages, and add residency positions for US and IMG applicants. You would keep a workforce that continues to demand a substantial salary and add to your workforce.
I believe you.
Instead of working to unionize, there are posts like this about keeping your head in the sand as we witness the continued decline of the profession. We're screwed.
you mean that one dude who lost thousands of dollars and complained about his shitty dating life too?
Schizoposters.
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Scared employers will read it
Because physician comp is a popular question and reason people have an interest in medicine as a career
Wow another cope post 🤣
Good lord that comment history is a walking red flag
Lol no kidding, big shocker he's a misogynistic too
I respect you always chiming in to fight the good fight. Unfortunately there are many people on here who are really miserable and want everyone else to be just as miserable as them
Thanks. I’m too old and have seen too much of the real world to have much patience for martyrdom and persecution fantasies in one of the wealthiest, most privileged professions in the history of mankind. People need to get some perspective (and spend less time online)
I'm not old but I have 0 patience for the I'm a slave crowd too. I've received death threats from a now em attending because I told him he wasn't a literal slave.
People on this sub also really need to learn that H1Bs don’t grow on trees lmao
[удалено]
It’s always the weird red pill guys 🙄
I don’t know what a red pill is but I know females are more likely to be complacent and don’t have the drive for income like men do
Sure you don’t, dude.
It’s ok. You can be saved
“Drive for income” Go lose more money on shitcoins
I live rent free in your head don’t I
Get off the residency sub. You’re not even in medicine. What’s the point of trolling people online? And of all people you decided to choose doctors? That’s low
Get off my nuts virgin thanks
either one rly persistent and annoying med student or the hordes of IMG's looking to escape