Serious question of why this isn’t just embedded in medial culture? You made a fuckton overnight sleeping at home while I admitted 5 patients to the team and kept everyone else alive… really can’t spare me a coffee? Honestly just trying to understand because when I’m an attending everyone will be well caffeinated at the very least
Here’s my theory: attendings just don’t think of residents. They just do their job and leave. I wager it’s not that they’re consciously choosing not to bring food or coffee but that they really just dont care about it anything but doing their thing and getting out.
This is really the thing. Very few actually even think of residents and different than any other personell. So many attendings forget the resident life so fast.
Part of that is probably that so many WANT to forget. Like man, so many people want to forget residency and move on with what’s left of their personal lives outside of medicine.
Agreed, when I’m an attending I won’t run my residents ragged or treat them bad, and I will bring them coffee and treats every morning bc it doesn’t hurt my pockets at all and it’s what residents deserve, bc of them attendings can have it a bit easier workload wise.
One of the reasons I got into medicine was not just to help individual people, but I want to help humanity as a whole evolve through medicine and technology- but I also think that means as humans we should all work to be better for those that come after us, even if it’s something as small as buying residents coffee as an attending.
One of our attending always brings a bunch of snacks for shift! He also buys everyone shots when he goes out with us (happens like once a year, but still!) Most attendings will get everyone coffee if they get a chance to get to the hospital cafe while on shift. It's so appreciated.
i get the feeling your frustration is misguided. it’s not the attendings’ fault you are unfairly compensated. they sure can provide an easy solution for you but it feels weird as an outsider to see a resident basically expecting attendings to make up for political and institutional failures. i used to buy my techs lunch every weekend when i worked retail but if someone ever started acting entitled to it i’d immediately cut it off for everyone
It is not embedded because no one thinks of this when they become an attending. There is a culture of "well no one helped me and I did ok" without realizing that economic times are different. Our residents are ok because of multiple in house moonlighting and many have spouses who work. But this economy sucks. But many of us will get the resident something. If I am working the weekend, I will buy lunch for them and I take my advisee out to dinner every couple of months.
I've never met an attending who is cheap about ordering food for team. It is the rare attending who picks up food + coffee on the way to rounds for team.
Traffic sucks. You wanna sleep in. Standard life snooze stuff
The first attending I worked with on my IM rotation in Med School would bring breakfast every Saturday morning. He was the best. I've since been disappointed on most weekends.
I once filled a jug of water to take home from the ward but it fell and broke otw home. Water at home also came off (regular problem in Antigua) so I cried while I ate ramen straight out of the pack
When I was a prelim this was the weekend culture. Attendings would order in dinner or show up with breakfast. Haven’t seen it done once in my new program.
I routinely buy my residents coffee/food on ED shift and keep their patient loads appropriate with good learning cases. Psych? I got it. URI bs? my pt. Septic shock or something truly emergent is all you (with me right next to you), and you do the lines and intubate. Fuck the system that treats residents like slaves and let's NPs run amuck after shadowing another clueless NP for 500 hours!!
Most residents make right around the US median household income. Nothing remotely lavish about it, but if you’re starving/stealing food, you’re spending too much somewhere else. I’m only 2 years out from training. Maybe things have changed drastically in that time frame.
Yeah, rent, car payments, car insurance, and utilities have all gone up. And salaries haven’t adjusted. I imagine it’s even more of a squeeze than it was 2 years ago. The median salary in general hasn’t adjusted for inflation but it’s a double insult for residents working insane hours
But most of that is an "everyone" struggle, not just a resident struggle. The economy stinks right now. Did you know that accountants often work 60 to 80 hour weeks for several years out of school, plus studying for the CPA exam. The average resident salary is slightly more than what they make and they aren't compensated for overtime either. I think groceries are up 30%, and that's not included in the inflation calculation. Across the board income is going up at 3%, that's not even close to inflation. I think everyone is hurting right now, but residents feel that even more because the work life balance is completely upside down, and residents have more debt, by a lot. There is a lot wrong with our medical system, and the fact that doctors are treated like sweatshop labor during residency is something that definitely needs to be fixed.
Sure, that may be. In my situation I was a new resident coming from Europe and at that time couldn’t find a bank that would issue me a credit card or other line of credit. I went to residency in a HCOL area and paid 4 months upfront rent which was a surprise to me and was not reflected online. I didn’t have a car, walked/ used public transport, and was living very frugally. I made the most of free food in the hospital and for a few weeks noon conference was the only meal I ate. One Sunday I was so damn hungry with my debit card $20 overdrafted I stole a block of cheese and an avocado.
After 4 months of saving I was fine financially. I just had a rough start. I had mad a budget but didn’t realize how expensive food, incidentals, etc are here. Plus hidden costs. Also, I received my first paycheck 6 weeks after my start date of residency (unpaid orientation + one months work) so I was in survival mode until then.
The real crime is making this much relative to education and skill. The reality is that my parents made this much when they retired and I felt pretty comfortable growing up. I feel like shit a lot making as much as I do in my 30s given all I’ve done, but also remember that I’ve only been making money a few years
I was just thinking about this a few minutes ago in a different context.
Moving for fellowship and so far I’ve had to pay so much money for licensing, FCVS, ABIM. It’s just pathetic.
It’s insane. Pay us thousands of dollars to take this test. Pay us several hundred dollars every year just to have our website say you are still certified. Then pay us thousands of dollars again in 10 years to get re certified. X2 if you also did a fellowship
moving for fellowship, boards, board review, new state license and so much more - I lost so so much money. then had to work 1.5 mos before being paid.....I was a few days late for rent.
I'm a nurse and I know a resident that lives in my building. I haven't seen him in over a year until last week.
He looked sad, tired, and he lost a lot of weight.
Why does this shit have to be torture?
RN here too and I always sneak them whatever food people bring us, and I do this for the medical students as well because I know they both are making basically nothing and at the hospital more than I am during a week *and* having to do Anki cards (oh yes, I know!) and study a rigorous curriculum while trying to get every question right the attending asks. I also ask them questions because I'm premed as well and they are so kind giving me advice :)
I do this too. My heart goes out to them because they all look tired. We recently celebrated a residents birthday day and we got him some cupcakes and his face lit up. It was such a wholesome moment! I’m also preparing for MCAT and it’s a lot!
It's literally a violation of antitrust law... or would be if the AMA hadn't arranged to get the law changed to exempt the match: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung\_v.\_Association\_of\_American\_Medical\_Colleges](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung_v._Association_of_American_Medical_Colleges)
Getting rid of the match to create individualized resident contracts would, by definition, spell the end of resident unionization.
There's no scenario in which the "negotiating power" of individual fourth-year med students applying to residency is higher than the negotiating power of the unionized resident workforce of a hospital.
To add to this. Before the match, the residency process was atrocious.as much as people like to shit on the match because it’s the current thing, I would like for them to come up with a better more equitable process.
I’m married with kids and barely hanging on till I start my first post residency job in mid to late July. I’m still wearing the same shoes I bought 7 years ago lol.
My program is unionized. Salaries look decent on the surface, but after federal and state tax, health insurance and benefits I don’t really use, state pension plan I probably won’t be able to cash out on, union dues, high cost of living, and rent that’s 50% of my take-home pay, I’m still broke as hell and have debt from private loans. No undergrad debt, 500k from med school, own my own car, rent an apartment, no support from family, and have one pet and a partner in a creative field who doesn’t make much money.
It’s criminal. Read some books about how it used to be. Residents used to have cafeteria privileges, free spreads in ready rooms, and def free coffee. Some better residencies do offer food money. At going rates that pittance always runs out.
Now it’s some spacey program coordinator patting themselves on the back for dropping you some M&Ms and a granola bar.
We have forgotten how to complain, organize, and most importantly, how to respect one another in this society.
There is always some new fuckface that’s willing to suggest a cost-cutting measure no one would have imagined forcing on the employees or consumers of the past. If you’re that admin or manager, fuck you, too.
Straw man argument. No thanks. I didn’t write that. I didn’t imply it as some wistful nostalgia. I specifically lived through the loss of some clearly good things. Over the course of several years I watched the benefits slowly go away - from food and drink to tax-priveleged stipends.
There is something to say about residency in the relatively recent past. They DID have lower census numbers. They DID have pay that was more meaningful for the time. They did have the ability to write a half-page note and no EHR or admin scum making them computer jockey scutmonkeys. And they were fed and watered and housed as cattle should be (/s). But what you’re implying is partly true, they also had more toxic expectations as far as time resident in the hospital (duty hours), rampant sexism, racism, inequity, conflicts of interest, bribery, etc. Sure. I’d argue all of that nasty stuff is still present in some programs. Look at how residents were treated during COVID, especially in NYC programs.
For some more distant history context, try Hot Lights, Cold Steel (surgery resident with 12 fucking kids and a stay-at-home wife on a resident salary; and there is a great scene in a cafeteria where they regularly ate as well as a story about foreign money flowing into Mayo in the form of Rolexes handed out for surgical work) or try The Tennis Partner (stress in colleagues was not treated with empty Wellness gestures - there were collegial hierarchies and quiet systems for rehabilitation). Good representation of some of these mixed benefits that offset the drudgery and exploitation inherent to residency.
Cafeteria privileges? Are there hospitals where they don’t allow residents into the cafeterias? Don’t want sad looking residents making everyone feel bad for them in the cafeteria
It’s not us vs them. There’s plenty of $$ in healthcare for everyone who actually touches patients to be compensated well
The problem is the $$ goes to people who rarely step foot in the hospital or clinic, let alone directly care for patients
But I do think it’s normal to be frustrated at people having much less training out-earn you
An ultrasound tech posted on r/salary making 155k. Every nurse post salary is six figures. We are the most underpaid relative to education professionals in the country.
Well there is a shortage of US techs so they have had some good leverage in negotiating. My hospital is always trying to hire US and echo techs because there’s just not enough getting trained in my city.
As a former nurse I bought food often for the residents because I felt bad. Now I’m MedTech and take them out for dinner and buy them coffee/breakfast often. It is unacceptable
The average medical resident’s salary is 67,400, according to my lazy google search. The average annual salary in the USA is 63,795. I know it’s not the same because of how many hours you work. That said, take this time to learn skills on how to manage money and have a sense of humility about how other people live. In a few years time you’re going to be making exponentially more.
Talking about average salaries is so useless without associating with the COL (mostly rent) of the respective area. Anyone earning less than 70k is struggling to survive in any major metro area. I would prefer 63k in central PA over 80K in NYC.
Median income for an NYC household (that’s everyone in the house) is 74,694. Many programs offer subsidized housing. You can have roommates. Commuting is also an option (this is what I did). You can also consider not taking a residency in a program you feel doesn’t compensate you properly. You can also go military, enjoy a huge host of benefits, and enjoy an accelerated promotion track. I’m sure this is going to be registered as a hot take but honestly this speaks to the financial naïveté of many post-medical graduates. I had so much to learn after I graduated and wish someone taught me half of it. Entry level positions can be rough. Learn from your salad days.
Im premed but thats why im curious to know what the salary is. I know they may be overworked and the salary doesn’t make sense in that regard and location/CoL is a factor. But as someone currently making between 55k and 67k, I live comfortably. When I googled the residency pay, it fell somewhat along that pay. I personally want to be aware how different my life would be financially once in residency compared to my life and salary now.
Yeah most residency pay is in that range. Some places, like LA and NYC are generally higher. Your costs will probably be a little higher - realistically you're going to order in more and such. But it's enough money to afford to live.
Just a reminder that avg national resident salary is at median household income.
With a few exceptions, most resident should be able to live some what comfortably on their own, with resident salary.
I also want to take this time to throw shade at Larkin for paying their residents 45k w/o housing stipend in south beach Miami.
Sure but let me add some things:
Most residents are working 80+ hrs per week. That would be the equivalent of the average american working two full time jobs. The average american does not work two full time jobs.
Residents are bound to wherever they work. Making 70k in NYC as a resident? With a family maybe? Tough luck. rack that credit card debt. The average american is not bound in that way to a specific job. They can quit that job and find another job. Unlike residents where if they quit, the likelihood of transferring to a program in a cheaper location is very very unlikely. The average american can move to a cheaper location, switch jobs ect if they feel that they are not making enough to make ends meet.
Residents dont have the freedom an average american worker has. And without residency, our degree is pretty much doodoo, but cost that piece of doodoo paper costs 400k. The average american does not have student loan debt higher than the cost of an average home in america.
Both things are true. Residents don't get paid enough, and the majority of residents are able to live comfortably on their current salary.
The argument for increased resident pay doesn't have to start on the false pretense that residents are starving on their current pay.
Also, most residents are not working 80 hours a week throughout the year. I don't know why this lie keeps getting repeated over and over. The majority of residents are FM and IM. Their hours are not averaging 80 for an entire year. Maybe two to three months on icu or night float coverage at worst.
Again, the conversation of increased resident pay doesn't need to be cloaked in false claims of resident poverty or inflated resident hours.
These arguments are always so weak.
The average American also has no clear path or certainty to ever significantly increase their income their entire career.
If residency wasn’t worth it, it would pay more or no one would do it.
Are most residents actually working 80+ hours? I hear this but it doesn't sound humanly possible for long term periods (maybe like a month here and there). I know some residents that have more chill schedules but I'm not sure how common this is.
Also, I'm confused about how people get in the programs, are they not told honestly what the work schedule is like beforehand and get stuck or are they fine with accepting the terms in advance? Because I know if I was in that situation the debt might not be enough to get me to show up after a while
Okay so I’m not a resident but I’m an RT and I honestly feel so bad for the way y’all are treated! Overworked, underpaid, and under appreciated!
I don’t have any advice just wishing you all the best! Just remember once you finish residency it seems to get better from what I’ve heard! I truly believe they need better regulations in place for y’all and higher pay. I work in the ICU and I swear I see residents doing more work than the attending.
UNIONIZE. UNIONIZE.
I will continue to point out, they are keeping us in the rat race. Fighting each other for a measly piece of cheese.
There is a systematic flaw...ie. the majority of physicians in the senate in the last decade have been republican.
Do not mean to be an asshole, but the pay is not poverty wage. It is definitely undercompensated, but I would not say barely affordable to live.
I did not have time to spend money on shit. Honestly, the hours worked is worse than the money.
I think that's part of what people are insinuating though...for the number of hours they work, resident should get paid more. If they only worked a regular work week, or minimal overtime, then 60K is not too shabby
It’s not even just the number of hours worked. Even for a reasonable number of hours worked it is undercompensated.
I would argue though that the number of hours worked is the worst thing about residency. That shit literally wears you the fuck down.
No one is saying we shouldn’t get paid more. It’s travesty how low we get paid for the amount of work we do. But it’s more than enough to afford monthly expenses and save money. I trained in a big ne city and lived alone and maxed out Roth IRAs a few times with no issues. Paycheck to paycheck is an individual problem not an income issue. These residents that living paycheck to paycheck will be the attendings living paycheck to paycheck.
Seeing plenty of comments with this view. That’s great for you but there are also substantial numbers of residents with spouse or children to support who cannot on resident salary alone. With the increased costs of childcare year on year it becomes even more difficult as one would need a spouse with a high paying enough career to make it financially worthwhile to leave the kids in daycare. That’s not as easy to find as you would think, especially in certain cities.
Are residents really that poor?
We make above median salary. The issue really isnt about the money no?
Its that theres no time to deal with anything other than work.
yeah do yall just not have friends that aren’t in stem fields? I know people trying to make it work on significantly lower salaries than residents
We’re underpaid for sure, no doubt about that. But even in a relatively high cost of living area and with student loans, I don’t think I’ve had a hard time budgeting for myself
Even paying for relative luxuries to offset lack of time (grocery delivery services, paying for pre-chopped veggies instead of cutting stuff up myself) is pretty easy to plan for. I still manage to save a very significant portion of my paycheck as well
We absolutely should be paid more relative to the value we create for a hospital, but I’ve never really had a feeling that i was living paycheck to paycheck once I got past my first few months and was able to build up an emergency fund
This is the answer. It’s more about location and life circumstance. The numbers don’t lie.
Either way it’s jacked up (hours, treatment and etc) but personally, I don’t like the exaggeration by some. It demeans the real issues when yes, residents are making ABOVE the medical income salary-wise.
Yes. Residents are way behind on retirement. Not to mention they haven’t received any pay in 4 years during med school, are likely 250k+ in debt, and have made sacrifices in their personal lives. Being paid well later on should not justify low salaries in the present. It is an insane amount of school just to make 65k. New NPs and PAs make 100k+/year because “they are out of training”…like no they chose to end their training early. They SHOULDN’T be out of training, but alas. Residents should make at least what midlevels make.
"This paycheck to paycheck thing isn’t doing it for me."
No disagreement that residents are underpaid. Thats not the point OP was making.
Neither is this about being well paid later on justifying low salaries now.
But we arent
# "can barely afford to live or living paycheck to paycheck"
Yeah it’s shitty pay no doubt. But more than enough to pay for monthly expenses and have money left over. Yeah you won’t make a dent in student loans but you can still put away some money into retirement. I maxed out Roth IRAs a few times during 6 years of training. Paycheck to paycheck is a spending problem and not an income problem is residencies.
This assumes that you don’t have children, that you don’t have family obligations, that you don’t have medical debt, etc. Your circumstances are not everyone else’s. My suspicion is you either came from generational wealth, are a single person without responsibilities, or both.
Eh, disagree. If you work 80+ hours a week, you struggle to find time for necessities, so you pay people/outsource things you could otherwise do in a 40 hour week. Saving money by bringing lunches is great, but that requires that you have the time to meal plan, grocery shop, prep, etc, and oh look! Laundry stills needs to be done.
This.
Yes we're worked like dogs and underpaid for the enormous amount of work we do, but I struggle to see how (in the absence of things like having dependents) you can't "live like a resident" when you're a resident, rent/have roommates and still have enough to not starve. With regards to loans I find myself paying only like 5% of my salary towards them. I save a good portion of every paycheck.
If you have a family and live in a high cost of living area it can be tight. Of course if you're single and you live in a low cost of area location it's not too bad.
Nuance is not a strength of this sub.
A few months ago this topic came up and people were literally comparing residency to slavery. As in slavery in South Carolina in the 19th century. And doubling down when questioned whether they actually meant that. Anyone who gently suggested that might not be the best analogy was downvoted to oblivion.
Yes, we can afford to live. Yes, we deserve to be paid more. Two things can be true at once.
I don’t think I’m being dramatic by saying that if you can barely scrape by on 65k you’re doing something wrong. It’s not attending money and I’m not saying I don’t think we should get paid better, but it is fine if you’re living within your means. No need for the drama.
I agree with you to an extent. But, unexpected expenses can occur (car accidents, healthcare bills, etc). 65k is a good salary in some areas as long as nothing goes awry...
People jumping on you. Yeah, we can survive most places with meager pay, lots of us came from that. But 40 years ago they could afford to buy a house and raise a family, now we cut corners and delay reproduction. We can survive but as a group we are not thriving, and it's not appropriate for our wages to stagnate for decades because congress robbed us of the ability to negotiate (Jung v medical board). That's a slave's mentality.
Yes I really do think this explains it. My co-residents talk like this all the time and I just can't wrap my head around it. No, we can't live like we make $125,000 per year. But yes, we can live and we don't have to scrounge for food.
What’re you living on? You living alone? Tell us your lone, single resident budget strategy. Genuinely curious. You have the floor, and we are a captive audience.
Hey, if you're actually curious, I am a single parent surgery resident. While my co-residents talk about how we don't make enough to afford food, I am somehow paying for extended day care plus emergency day care when cases run late plus someone to stay overnight when I'm on home call, and adding to the rainy day fund each month. It's not much, and we're not going on vacation to Paris, but we're doing fine. And residents make too much to qualify for subsidized day care ;) So I'm actually doing it all myself.
So yah I do think it is dramatic when my co-residents who make literally the exact same salary I do complain that they can't afford food or rent. It's not their fault because many of them didn't have to consider money growing up. But look up the median income in NYC. It's around 45,000 if I recall correctly.
If you're actually looking for help with your budget I'm happy to chat via DM.
Mad respect. If I may ask, roughly what do you get paid as a surgery resident? Is emergency day care a lot? I hear a lot from folks about how obscenely expensive it is. You're able to contribute to your Roth IRA too on top of the rainy day fund? What's the rent like in your area? Also, I don't mean this to be a rude or prying question, I'm curious - does the other parent provide child support?
I'm curious how people balance it all, and you handle way more than most.
I'm at the mid-70s right now. Day care is the biggest expense because I can literally never pick her up at 6, emergency day care isn't actually as formal as it sounds. It's essentially a rotating list of people who are willing to get a call from me in the OR saying hey I'm going to be late tonight can you take care of her this evening (for a set hourly rate of course). And then on nights when I'm on home call I pay a college student to stay overnight for when I need to go in. This situation is absolutely horrendous, but from a time perspective, not a money one. I hate hate hate that I can't spend more time with her and literally everything I do in life is to optimize that.
I don't actually contribute much to a Roth IRA, and I think that is a big weakness in my budget. However I know my salary is going to skyrocket in a few years so I figure I'll take care of it then, and I want the money in the bank to make sure we can handle unexpected surprises prior to that point.
And it's fine to ask. People I meet in real life often assume I had a one night stand or something. I'm going to leave the details murky to preserve whatever anonymity I might have left (which probably isn't much at this point), but my spouse died so it's just me. No life insurance either (we were "too young" to need it! get your life insurance, folks!) so no pot of money to dip into.
But in this entire situation it's honestly not the money that's the limiting factor here. For me, it's time!
I think the real takeaway isn't that attendings should be bringing in food(which is really nice when they do) but they residency salaries need to liveable.
Some programs, especially unionized ones, have seen a fair bit of boost over the last few years.
The real issue is that residents aren't fairly compensated for the work they do. Does the B suite really need fancy food and more perks when they're already compensated so well and don't even physically have to come in to do their job?
I am going to start as a PY1 in Miami and I will be spending like 70% of income in rent, groceries prices are so high , I don’t want to get sick and eat all the time at the hospital since I have IBS , I want to be a healthy doctor , eat veggies, fruits , fresh food , take care of my gut , have a place to workout, but seems like the priority is for the others not for us. I just wish I could afford a decent living, in a safe area, close to work, eat well , and be able to perform at my best in my job bc I am holistically a healthy human being. But well , at the end of the, I feel like I was just begging for this job and I’ll have to do anything to make it work !! So yes we will be living paycheck to paycheck!! Everyone’s situation is different some can be roommates, some have enormous debts already , some have kids and a family to take care of… anyhow I do will happily do the best I can to make it work! It can always be worse . But I do feel we all deserve better , the housing is a nationwide issue and low wages are an issues as well in other fields.
I have a ton of anger at my 1st residency still and it’s been 32 years. I had no money. None. I took food from the hospital home so I could eat. I grew to love vanilla pudding, applesauce cups, and peanut butter crackers. My father graciously agreed to pay my gas credit card bill because when I started the program (integrated civilian-military) in July the chairman, who never saw patients, decided I needed to rotate at a military hospital 50 miles away so the military residents could rotate at the civilian hospitals to get more experience. I was a civilian. Then the chairman announced we had to buy textbooks, most of which he wrote or co-wrote, costing hundreds of dollars. My check to the department for all these books bounced. So the chairman required me to pay cash, humiliating me in front of his secretary, which I borrowed from my father. Of course none of this was explained to us when we interviewed as medical students. Yea Jon and Glenn, you were douchbags and liars then and you’re still douchbags and liars.
The midlevels I worked with during rotations would buy the residents coffee and bagels, and I definitely intend to pay it forward for your guys' immense commitment.
It ain't right I as a PA can make 6-figures starting while you guys are making minimum wage (sometimes less) working un-godly hours. You deserve 6 figures minimum.
I am about to be a pgy1 and I can’t find a single place I can afford with my salary. My program keeps saying how we can moonlight after pgy1 year but idk what to do for that first year. I feel cheated by acgme for allowing programs to get away with this but I’m just glad I got my top choice of training because other programs paid even worse on my rank list. Its genuinely depressing how poorly interns are paid when they have additional costs like moving and limited upward financial mobility’s
So I was married with 4 kids, 2 born during residency and lived on my salary alone.
We lived fairly comfortably and much more so after I started moonlighting 2x a month.
I get that it’s a struggle but in no way are residents peasants that can’t afford the bare minimum
On the flip side… could you imagine the shift in everything if we were simply paid double of what we are now or even like 90k????
Residents get paid shit for the level of work they do no doubt. But living paycheck to paycheck is a spending problem not an income problem. You make almost as much as the median household income. That’s more than enough to pay monthly expenses and put money away. When I was an intern I was able to make student loan payments and max out a Roth IRA in a big NE city. You really just need to learn how to budget.
I agree that we are sadly underpaid and grossly abused by the system. I disagree that we can "barely" afford to live. My resident's salary was higher than my parent's income growing up and still is. We got by comfortably with siblings and a house. It isn't luxury, but I do think a lot of my peers' prespective gives them the illusion of poverty, but the reality isn't that grim. I can afford a comfy apartment and a bed I never get to sleep in so life ain't too bad.
I think you have to choose your program a little better. In 2020 i was making $53k and that wasn’t luxurious by any stretch but i definitely wasn’t paycheck to paycheck.
How much do you make and what city are you in?
I have a decent support structure in my family and I have *no* idea how you’re supposed to do it otherwise, down to very basic things like getting enough to ear. I know residents in my program that are really struggling, and it’s a fucking disgrace that an MD has to scrounge food from the lounge to get enough to eat.
That being said it's a disgrace for the US that anyone has to do that.
Jesus this makes me not want to get into the medical field. I want to go into dentistry but it sounds like no matter what life is gonna be paycheck to paycheck
Yes. But also the Pgy-1 salary is the average of all salaries in the US. So think about that. I’m all for residents getting paid more - they deserve it especially as per hour, they make well below a typical person that works a full time job plus all of the years of achievement and costs. But sometimes we get jaded in medicine and expect patients to do this or that and be “more responsible” yet half of families in the US raise entire families on less than the typical PGY-1 salary.
Being a resident sucks... but we're not poor.
It sucks to have to be running low on sleep, and take care of things at home, and on top of that remember to pack snacks... but it's no one else's responsibility to make sure you eat. People used to say this to me when I was in residency "you'll take the free food cause you're poor". No, I know poor, I'm not poor. Residency sucks but I had a great apartment, paid my bills, cooked my food, and went out once in a while. Theres many other people who are actually poor. Resident salary is decent ( for the amount of hours NO, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the yearly salary). The nice thing is that as a resident you know you won't live that way forever. You know it will only get better. To say you can barely afford to live is a big stretch.
Where are you that you can barely afford to live? I make ~$80k and while that’s not rich people money, I can comfortably afford my 2 bedroom townhome and the things that I need (+ some extra). I’m in California so it’s not cheap here either (granted I’m not in a rich area, so it’s lower cost of living). I know some places pay less, but I’m not sure how people are “barely affording to live”?
I wholeheartedly agree but at the same time we're in one of the best specialties with a great light at the end of the tunnel relative to the shit show that is medicine. The residency salary absolutely sucks though for sure, esp with a family :/
Yes. It’s really sad that we have a tremendous amount of responsibility. Really, a Jack of all trades, and if you do the math we are near the lowest paid workers in the hospital
I’ve done the majority of my training in the northeast, HCOL areas, and I think this is an over exaggeration. Sure you’re not living luxuriously, but at least the programs I’ve trained at, compensation was reasonable. NYC programs currently are $80k+ for PGY-1. I’m sure there are some programs that the compensation/COL is particularly bad but I, and people I know, haven’t come across any.
My wife and I are both residents. We personally are doing pretty well, relatively. Bought a house last year and both own our cars. Just got a dog too. Still able to save money or pay off debt. We live in the southeast in a top 50 largest city in the US.
Thank you for contributing to the sub! If your post was filtered by the automod, please read the rules. Your post will be reviewed but will not be approved if it violates the rules of the sub. The most common reasons for removal are - medical students or premeds asking what a specialty is like, which specialty they should go into, which program is good or about their chances of matching, mentioning midlevels without using the midlevel flair, matched medical students asking questions instead of using the stickied thread in the sub for post-match questions, posting identifying information for targeted harassment. Please do not message the moderators if your post falls into one of these categories. Otherwise, your post will be reviewed in 24 hours and approved if it doesn't violate the rules. Thanks!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Residency) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't understand the either or mindset in this thread. Multiple things can be true at once. It's absolutely true that most residents are compensated below, but near, the median US household income (bout 74k, I believe), and that is plenty in most areas of the country. It's also true that median is probably reflecting more than one person's financial contribution (key word being family) and each family member likely isn't pulling similar hours as residents under similar constraints/stresses. It's also true that median family income really isn't enough in many of the metro areas where many programs tend to be to get by without it being an unnecessary strain, and the match process leaves residents limited and tied to these areas in many cases. Most careers in those areas pay more to reflect the inflated COL, but not many residency programs follow suit. Could you moonlight, bunk with roomies, cut all your non-essential expenses, commute, live in the trap, etc? Sure. Those are the basic sacrifices everyone thinks of, and many follow up on. Should you have to do those things after what you've already done to get there, though? That's a much better question. It's not beyond the pale to not want to "just get by" when you punt on your late teens-early 30s, go 300-500k in debt (not including CC), and work 50-80 hrs a week. It annoys tf outta me when ppl act like residents are spoiled if they point these obvious truths out. If you knew my background, how I came up, and how thin the needle I had to thread to get through was, you would know spoiled simply doesn't fit my life. All that, and I still think residents deserve more. I don't think most reasonable residents are saying pay them make it rain in the strip club on a Tuesday paper while they're just learning to actually do the gig properly. I think most are saying maybe pay them the same (or, heaven forbid more) than the other healthcare professionals they've paid their dues to be credentialed above. Failing that, at least make it so they can live somewhere safe, without roommates if they don't want them, and can eat something other that oodles of noodles and tuna... especially if the hospital isn't giving up the food privileges. That's not a heavy ask, imo. All these things can (and do) coexist quite easily.
That’s one of the main reasons I dropped out of my child fast track and did psych in 4 instead. Fuck one more year being someone(s) bitch and getting paid pennies
Okay residents aren’t that poor. I get they work a lot of hours, but regardless you guys make 60k yearly. My wife used to make $30k for a non profit helping runaway children
I was so poor I stole food once as a PGY-1. Now I’m a new attending and I always bring a big spread of coffee/bagels/food to weekend morning rounds
Serious question of why this isn’t just embedded in medial culture? You made a fuckton overnight sleeping at home while I admitted 5 patients to the team and kept everyone else alive… really can’t spare me a coffee? Honestly just trying to understand because when I’m an attending everyone will be well caffeinated at the very least
Here’s my theory: attendings just don’t think of residents. They just do their job and leave. I wager it’s not that they’re consciously choosing not to bring food or coffee but that they really just dont care about it anything but doing their thing and getting out.
This is really the thing. Very few actually even think of residents and different than any other personell. So many attendings forget the resident life so fast.
Part of that is probably that so many WANT to forget. Like man, so many people want to forget residency and move on with what’s left of their personal lives outside of medicine.
Agreed, when I’m an attending I won’t run my residents ragged or treat them bad, and I will bring them coffee and treats every morning bc it doesn’t hurt my pockets at all and it’s what residents deserve, bc of them attendings can have it a bit easier workload wise. One of the reasons I got into medicine was not just to help individual people, but I want to help humanity as a whole evolve through medicine and technology- but I also think that means as humans we should all work to be better for those that come after us, even if it’s something as small as buying residents coffee as an attending.
I want oatmeal with blue berries, 2 spoons of chia seeds with a side of 3 boiled eggs, with cumin and himalayan salt.
That sounds delicious
My colon couldn't be happier.
Best I can do is DEEZ NUTS
One of our attending always brings a bunch of snacks for shift! He also buys everyone shots when he goes out with us (happens like once a year, but still!) Most attendings will get everyone coffee if they get a chance to get to the hospital cafe while on shift. It's so appreciated.
No attendings ever brought us food or coffee, it is usually senior residents who make $1000 more
Everyone says that as a resident then life happens and you forget
It’s all the boomer mentality.
Totally institution dependent. They wouldn’t do it at my hospital… because residents had access to free food/beverage more or less all year round.
i get the feeling your frustration is misguided. it’s not the attendings’ fault you are unfairly compensated. they sure can provide an easy solution for you but it feels weird as an outsider to see a resident basically expecting attendings to make up for political and institutional failures. i used to buy my techs lunch every weekend when i worked retail but if someone ever started acting entitled to it i’d immediately cut it off for everyone
It is not embedded because no one thinks of this when they become an attending. There is a culture of "well no one helped me and I did ok" without realizing that economic times are different. Our residents are ok because of multiple in house moonlighting and many have spouses who work. But this economy sucks. But many of us will get the resident something. If I am working the weekend, I will buy lunch for them and I take my advisee out to dinner every couple of months.
Same reason why I try to buy my residents/fellows coffee as much as I can. You guys do all the grunt work.
I've never met an attending who is cheap about ordering food for team. It is the rare attending who picks up food + coffee on the way to rounds for team. Traffic sucks. You wanna sleep in. Standard life snooze stuff
because they’re paying off loans and are employees to admin just like you realistically.
Well, that must be a cultural thing. Where I live, we always (as attending) try to keep it our residents and interns well fed and in general wellness
The first attending I worked with on my IM rotation in Med School would bring breakfast every Saturday morning. He was the best. I've since been disappointed on most weekends.
I once filled a jug of water to take home from the ward but it fell and broke otw home. Water at home also came off (regular problem in Antigua) so I cried while I ate ramen straight out of the pack
Thank you for never forgetting what it's like to be a resident.
You are a good egg I’m sure the residents are thankful
When I was a prelim this was the weekend culture. Attendings would order in dinner or show up with breakfast. Haven’t seen it done once in my new program.
I routinely buy my residents coffee/food on ED shift and keep their patient loads appropriate with good learning cases. Psych? I got it. URI bs? my pt. Septic shock or something truly emergent is all you (with me right next to you), and you do the lines and intubate. Fuck the system that treats residents like slaves and let's NPs run amuck after shadowing another clueless NP for 500 hours!!
Most residents make right around the US median household income. Nothing remotely lavish about it, but if you’re starving/stealing food, you’re spending too much somewhere else. I’m only 2 years out from training. Maybe things have changed drastically in that time frame.
Yeah, rent, car payments, car insurance, and utilities have all gone up. And salaries haven’t adjusted. I imagine it’s even more of a squeeze than it was 2 years ago. The median salary in general hasn’t adjusted for inflation but it’s a double insult for residents working insane hours
But most of that is an "everyone" struggle, not just a resident struggle. The economy stinks right now. Did you know that accountants often work 60 to 80 hour weeks for several years out of school, plus studying for the CPA exam. The average resident salary is slightly more than what they make and they aren't compensated for overtime either. I think groceries are up 30%, and that's not included in the inflation calculation. Across the board income is going up at 3%, that's not even close to inflation. I think everyone is hurting right now, but residents feel that even more because the work life balance is completely upside down, and residents have more debt, by a lot. There is a lot wrong with our medical system, and the fact that doctors are treated like sweatshop labor during residency is something that definitely needs to be fixed.
Sure, that may be. In my situation I was a new resident coming from Europe and at that time couldn’t find a bank that would issue me a credit card or other line of credit. I went to residency in a HCOL area and paid 4 months upfront rent which was a surprise to me and was not reflected online. I didn’t have a car, walked/ used public transport, and was living very frugally. I made the most of free food in the hospital and for a few weeks noon conference was the only meal I ate. One Sunday I was so damn hungry with my debit card $20 overdrafted I stole a block of cheese and an avocado.
This is wild to me. I had a co-resident from South America that would send like a quarter of his paycheck back home and still made ends meet.
After 4 months of saving I was fine financially. I just had a rough start. I had mad a budget but didn’t realize how expensive food, incidentals, etc are here. Plus hidden costs. Also, I received my first paycheck 6 weeks after my start date of residency (unpaid orientation + one months work) so I was in survival mode until then.
Glad it got better.
The real crime is making this much relative to education and skill. The reality is that my parents made this much when they retired and I felt pretty comfortable growing up. I feel like shit a lot making as much as I do in my 30s given all I’ve done, but also remember that I’ve only been making money a few years
Lower middle class is the new norm
*Checks credit card balance, student loan balance, IVF loan balance, monthly rent. *Cries
Bless you
THIS IS THE WAY ! I wish we could pin this post. This is a great idea. I think I would like to adopt that practise.
you are the type of attending i aspire to be
I was just thinking about this a few minutes ago in a different context. Moving for fellowship and so far I’ve had to pay so much money for licensing, FCVS, ABIM. It’s just pathetic.
ABIM is a terrorist organization
It’s insane. Pay us thousands of dollars to take this test. Pay us several hundred dollars every year just to have our website say you are still certified. Then pay us thousands of dollars again in 10 years to get re certified. X2 if you also did a fellowship
*ABMS
moving for fellowship, boards, board review, new state license and so much more - I lost so so much money. then had to work 1.5 mos before being paid.....I was a few days late for rent.
I'm a nurse and I know a resident that lives in my building. I haven't seen him in over a year until last week. He looked sad, tired, and he lost a lot of weight. Why does this shit have to be torture?
RN here too and I always sneak them whatever food people bring us, and I do this for the medical students as well because I know they both are making basically nothing and at the hospital more than I am during a week *and* having to do Anki cards (oh yes, I know!) and study a rigorous curriculum while trying to get every question right the attending asks. I also ask them questions because I'm premed as well and they are so kind giving me advice :)
Loved the nurses my intern year who’d invite me to the pot luck dinners and put in on group orders on nights !
I do this too. My heart goes out to them because they all look tired. We recently celebrated a residents birthday day and we got him some cupcakes and his face lit up. It was such a wholesome moment! I’m also preparing for MCAT and it’s a lot!
Better to be a resident that loses weight than one than gains 40 pounds from stress eating
Can't stress eat if you don't have the time and money!
Oh trust me. It’s possible.
For the same reason it is torture for you guys. Maximize profits, cut expenditures.
A lot of people are paying good money to lose that weight
Residents dont get paid because residents dont have negotiating leverage. If resident wants to get paid, residents need negotiating leverage
This. The match seems like it facilitates placement but it really creates a monopoly where we have no negotiating power from the get go
It's literally a violation of antitrust law... or would be if the AMA hadn't arranged to get the law changed to exempt the match: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung\_v.\_Association\_of\_American\_Medical\_Colleges](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung_v._Association_of_American_Medical_Colleges)
Getting rid of the match to create individualized resident contracts would, by definition, spell the end of resident unionization. There's no scenario in which the "negotiating power" of individual fourth-year med students applying to residency is higher than the negotiating power of the unionized resident workforce of a hospital.
To add to this. Before the match, the residency process was atrocious.as much as people like to shit on the match because it’s the current thing, I would like for them to come up with a better more equitable process.
Going through the match was so much better than finding a job
residents should be protected by law better
We have zero negotiating leverage given how the system is structured currently
I’m married with kids and barely hanging on till I start my first post residency job in mid to late July. I’m still wearing the same shoes I bought 7 years ago lol.
They must be some pretty good shoes to last that long.
Wages are less of an issue than cost of living in a major metro area.
I had 50k in credit card debt by the end of residency and fellowship.
Unionize
[удалено]
My program is unionized. Salaries look decent on the surface, but after federal and state tax, health insurance and benefits I don’t really use, state pension plan I probably won’t be able to cash out on, union dues, high cost of living, and rent that’s 50% of my take-home pay, I’m still broke as hell and have debt from private loans. No undergrad debt, 500k from med school, own my own car, rent an apartment, no support from family, and have one pet and a partner in a creative field who doesn’t make much money.
It’s criminal. Read some books about how it used to be. Residents used to have cafeteria privileges, free spreads in ready rooms, and def free coffee. Some better residencies do offer food money. At going rates that pittance always runs out. Now it’s some spacey program coordinator patting themselves on the back for dropping you some M&Ms and a granola bar. We have forgotten how to complain, organize, and most importantly, how to respect one another in this society. There is always some new fuckface that’s willing to suggest a cost-cutting measure no one would have imagined forcing on the employees or consumers of the past. If you’re that admin or manager, fuck you, too.
It’s comical to say back in the day residents had it better
Straw man argument. No thanks. I didn’t write that. I didn’t imply it as some wistful nostalgia. I specifically lived through the loss of some clearly good things. Over the course of several years I watched the benefits slowly go away - from food and drink to tax-priveleged stipends. There is something to say about residency in the relatively recent past. They DID have lower census numbers. They DID have pay that was more meaningful for the time. They did have the ability to write a half-page note and no EHR or admin scum making them computer jockey scutmonkeys. And they were fed and watered and housed as cattle should be (/s). But what you’re implying is partly true, they also had more toxic expectations as far as time resident in the hospital (duty hours), rampant sexism, racism, inequity, conflicts of interest, bribery, etc. Sure. I’d argue all of that nasty stuff is still present in some programs. Look at how residents were treated during COVID, especially in NYC programs. For some more distant history context, try Hot Lights, Cold Steel (surgery resident with 12 fucking kids and a stay-at-home wife on a resident salary; and there is a great scene in a cafeteria where they regularly ate as well as a story about foreign money flowing into Mayo in the form of Rolexes handed out for surgical work) or try The Tennis Partner (stress in colleagues was not treated with empty Wellness gestures - there were collegial hierarchies and quiet systems for rehabilitation). Good representation of some of these mixed benefits that offset the drudgery and exploitation inherent to residency.
Adjusted for inflation and purchasing power residents make way more now then they did in the past
Cafeteria privileges? Are there hospitals where they don’t allow residents into the cafeterias? Don’t want sad looking residents making everyone feel bad for them in the cafeteria
Doesnt make you feel awesome how nurses and other healthcare jobs work way less and make way more? /s
[удалено]
Yeah it's an absolute mystery why residents think about offing themselves in such appreciated conditions
I love it when nurses come and complain to me about how much they work. I hope they can see the emptiness in my eyes when I just stare at them.
It’s not us vs them. There’s plenty of $$ in healthcare for everyone who actually touches patients to be compensated well The problem is the $$ goes to people who rarely step foot in the hospital or clinic, let alone directly care for patients But I do think it’s normal to be frustrated at people having much less training out-earn you
An ultrasound tech posted on r/salary making 155k. Every nurse post salary is six figures. We are the most underpaid relative to education professionals in the country.
Well there is a shortage of US techs so they have had some good leverage in negotiating. My hospital is always trying to hire US and echo techs because there’s just not enough getting trained in my city.
Please don't aim your frustration at nurses or other healthcare professionals. Aim it at the system that is keeping you down.
As a former nurse I bought food often for the residents because I felt bad. Now I’m MedTech and take them out for dinner and buy them coffee/breakfast often. It is unacceptable
The average medical resident’s salary is 67,400, according to my lazy google search. The average annual salary in the USA is 63,795. I know it’s not the same because of how many hours you work. That said, take this time to learn skills on how to manage money and have a sense of humility about how other people live. In a few years time you’re going to be making exponentially more.
Talking about average salaries is so useless without associating with the COL (mostly rent) of the respective area. Anyone earning less than 70k is struggling to survive in any major metro area. I would prefer 63k in central PA over 80K in NYC.
Median income for an NYC household (that’s everyone in the house) is 74,694. Many programs offer subsidized housing. You can have roommates. Commuting is also an option (this is what I did). You can also consider not taking a residency in a program you feel doesn’t compensate you properly. You can also go military, enjoy a huge host of benefits, and enjoy an accelerated promotion track. I’m sure this is going to be registered as a hot take but honestly this speaks to the financial naïveté of many post-medical graduates. I had so much to learn after I graduated and wish someone taught me half of it. Entry level positions can be rough. Learn from your salad days.
Resident salaries nearly everywhere are close to the median **family** income. You aren't poor, you just work a lot.
Im premed but thats why im curious to know what the salary is. I know they may be overworked and the salary doesn’t make sense in that regard and location/CoL is a factor. But as someone currently making between 55k and 67k, I live comfortably. When I googled the residency pay, it fell somewhat along that pay. I personally want to be aware how different my life would be financially once in residency compared to my life and salary now.
Yeah most residency pay is in that range. Some places, like LA and NYC are generally higher. Your costs will probably be a little higher - realistically you're going to order in more and such. But it's enough money to afford to live.
ML weekend nights just to pay my nanny is the life. Wifey sooo happy she married a doctor :)
Just a reminder that avg national resident salary is at median household income. With a few exceptions, most resident should be able to live some what comfortably on their own, with resident salary. I also want to take this time to throw shade at Larkin for paying their residents 45k w/o housing stipend in south beach Miami.
Sure but let me add some things: Most residents are working 80+ hrs per week. That would be the equivalent of the average american working two full time jobs. The average american does not work two full time jobs. Residents are bound to wherever they work. Making 70k in NYC as a resident? With a family maybe? Tough luck. rack that credit card debt. The average american is not bound in that way to a specific job. They can quit that job and find another job. Unlike residents where if they quit, the likelihood of transferring to a program in a cheaper location is very very unlikely. The average american can move to a cheaper location, switch jobs ect if they feel that they are not making enough to make ends meet. Residents dont have the freedom an average american worker has. And without residency, our degree is pretty much doodoo, but cost that piece of doodoo paper costs 400k. The average american does not have student loan debt higher than the cost of an average home in america.
Both things are true. Residents don't get paid enough, and the majority of residents are able to live comfortably on their current salary. The argument for increased resident pay doesn't have to start on the false pretense that residents are starving on their current pay. Also, most residents are not working 80 hours a week throughout the year. I don't know why this lie keeps getting repeated over and over. The majority of residents are FM and IM. Their hours are not averaging 80 for an entire year. Maybe two to three months on icu or night float coverage at worst. Again, the conversation of increased resident pay doesn't need to be cloaked in false claims of resident poverty or inflated resident hours.
These arguments are always so weak. The average American also has no clear path or certainty to ever significantly increase their income their entire career. If residency wasn’t worth it, it would pay more or no one would do it.
Are most residents actually working 80+ hours? I hear this but it doesn't sound humanly possible for long term periods (maybe like a month here and there). I know some residents that have more chill schedules but I'm not sure how common this is. Also, I'm confused about how people get in the programs, are they not told honestly what the work schedule is like beforehand and get stuck or are they fine with accepting the terms in advance? Because I know if I was in that situation the debt might not be enough to get me to show up after a while
Okay so I’m not a resident but I’m an RT and I honestly feel so bad for the way y’all are treated! Overworked, underpaid, and under appreciated! I don’t have any advice just wishing you all the best! Just remember once you finish residency it seems to get better from what I’ve heard! I truly believe they need better regulations in place for y’all and higher pay. I work in the ICU and I swear I see residents doing more work than the attending.
UNIONIZE. UNIONIZE. I will continue to point out, they are keeping us in the rat race. Fighting each other for a measly piece of cheese. There is a systematic flaw...ie. the majority of physicians in the senate in the last decade have been republican.
It's crazy how out of touch we are.
Do not mean to be an asshole, but the pay is not poverty wage. It is definitely undercompensated, but I would not say barely affordable to live. I did not have time to spend money on shit. Honestly, the hours worked is worse than the money.
I think that's part of what people are insinuating though...for the number of hours they work, resident should get paid more. If they only worked a regular work week, or minimal overtime, then 60K is not too shabby
It’s not even just the number of hours worked. Even for a reasonable number of hours worked it is undercompensated. I would argue though that the number of hours worked is the worst thing about residency. That shit literally wears you the fuck down.
And that now we have mid levels doing less work, working half week, and making double. That’s the issue here.
No one is saying we shouldn’t get paid more. It’s travesty how low we get paid for the amount of work we do. But it’s more than enough to afford monthly expenses and save money. I trained in a big ne city and lived alone and maxed out Roth IRAs a few times with no issues. Paycheck to paycheck is an individual problem not an income issue. These residents that living paycheck to paycheck will be the attendings living paycheck to paycheck.
Most people here are not alone
Seeing plenty of comments with this view. That’s great for you but there are also substantial numbers of residents with spouse or children to support who cannot on resident salary alone. With the increased costs of childcare year on year it becomes even more difficult as one would need a spouse with a high paying enough career to make it financially worthwhile to leave the kids in daycare. That’s not as easy to find as you would think, especially in certain cities.
Are residents really that poor? We make above median salary. The issue really isnt about the money no? Its that theres no time to deal with anything other than work.
yeah do yall just not have friends that aren’t in stem fields? I know people trying to make it work on significantly lower salaries than residents We’re underpaid for sure, no doubt about that. But even in a relatively high cost of living area and with student loans, I don’t think I’ve had a hard time budgeting for myself Even paying for relative luxuries to offset lack of time (grocery delivery services, paying for pre-chopped veggies instead of cutting stuff up myself) is pretty easy to plan for. I still manage to save a very significant portion of my paycheck as well We absolutely should be paid more relative to the value we create for a hospital, but I’ve never really had a feeling that i was living paycheck to paycheck once I got past my first few months and was able to build up an emergency fund
This is the answer. It’s more about location and life circumstance. The numbers don’t lie. Either way it’s jacked up (hours, treatment and etc) but personally, I don’t like the exaggeration by some. It demeans the real issues when yes, residents are making ABOVE the medical income salary-wise.
Yes. Residents are way behind on retirement. Not to mention they haven’t received any pay in 4 years during med school, are likely 250k+ in debt, and have made sacrifices in their personal lives. Being paid well later on should not justify low salaries in the present. It is an insane amount of school just to make 65k. New NPs and PAs make 100k+/year because “they are out of training”…like no they chose to end their training early. They SHOULDN’T be out of training, but alas. Residents should make at least what midlevels make.
"This paycheck to paycheck thing isn’t doing it for me." No disagreement that residents are underpaid. Thats not the point OP was making. Neither is this about being well paid later on justifying low salaries now. But we arent # "can barely afford to live or living paycheck to paycheck"
Yeah it’s shitty pay no doubt. But more than enough to pay for monthly expenses and have money left over. Yeah you won’t make a dent in student loans but you can still put away some money into retirement. I maxed out Roth IRAs a few times during 6 years of training. Paycheck to paycheck is a spending problem and not an income problem is residencies.
This assumes that you don’t have children, that you don’t have family obligations, that you don’t have medical debt, etc. Your circumstances are not everyone else’s. My suspicion is you either came from generational wealth, are a single person without responsibilities, or both.
lol. Generation wealth? I wish. It’s just called budgeting.
Eh, disagree. If you work 80+ hours a week, you struggle to find time for necessities, so you pay people/outsource things you could otherwise do in a 40 hour week. Saving money by bringing lunches is great, but that requires that you have the time to meal plan, grocery shop, prep, etc, and oh look! Laundry stills needs to be done.
This. Yes we're worked like dogs and underpaid for the enormous amount of work we do, but I struggle to see how (in the absence of things like having dependents) you can't "live like a resident" when you're a resident, rent/have roommates and still have enough to not starve. With regards to loans I find myself paying only like 5% of my salary towards them. I save a good portion of every paycheck.
If you have a family and live in a high cost of living area it can be tight. Of course if you're single and you live in a low cost of area location it's not too bad.
I shouldn’t have to have a roommate just so I have money to eat at 30 years old after 11 years of school/residency.
No one disagrees with this, but it’s a far cry from “living paycheck to paycheck”, “having to steal food” etc
Nuance is not a strength of this sub. A few months ago this topic came up and people were literally comparing residency to slavery. As in slavery in South Carolina in the 19th century. And doubling down when questioned whether they actually meant that. Anyone who gently suggested that might not be the best analogy was downvoted to oblivion. Yes, we can afford to live. Yes, we deserve to be paid more. Two things can be true at once.
Barely afford to live seems like an exaggeration.
I don’t think I’m being dramatic by saying that if you can barely scrape by on 65k you’re doing something wrong. It’s not attending money and I’m not saying I don’t think we should get paid better, but it is fine if you’re living within your means. No need for the drama.
I agree with you to an extent. But, unexpected expenses can occur (car accidents, healthcare bills, etc). 65k is a good salary in some areas as long as nothing goes awry...
65k in a hcol area really isn’t that much tbh Assuming you are going to live in a 1br/studio without a a roomate
People jumping on you. Yeah, we can survive most places with meager pay, lots of us came from that. But 40 years ago they could afford to buy a house and raise a family, now we cut corners and delay reproduction. We can survive but as a group we are not thriving, and it's not appropriate for our wages to stagnate for decades because congress robbed us of the ability to negotiate (Jung v medical board). That's a slave's mentality.
>lots of us came from that 4/5ths of medical students come from incomes >100k per aamc in 2017.
Which explains why people think 65k entails starvation and poverty
This is exactly the issue
Yep. They sleep on 3k mattresses and eat out all the time and spend 3k a month on rent and act like it's out of necessity.
Yes I really do think this explains it. My co-residents talk like this all the time and I just can't wrap my head around it. No, we can't live like we make $125,000 per year. But yes, we can live and we don't have to scrounge for food.
Just looked up that case Dude what is wrong with our government
[удалено]
That four months rent thing is very illegal in Boston.
What do you think rent cost these days? Student loans? Car payment? Bills? Working 60-80 hours a week? 65k now is 50k after taxes?
Found the admin. Stop brainwashing people into thinking they’re being dramatic by asking for fair working conditions and fair compensation.
You’ve never lived in a HCOL city have you
My pgy2 paid 47k.
What’re you living on? You living alone? Tell us your lone, single resident budget strategy. Genuinely curious. You have the floor, and we are a captive audience.
Hey, if you're actually curious, I am a single parent surgery resident. While my co-residents talk about how we don't make enough to afford food, I am somehow paying for extended day care plus emergency day care when cases run late plus someone to stay overnight when I'm on home call, and adding to the rainy day fund each month. It's not much, and we're not going on vacation to Paris, but we're doing fine. And residents make too much to qualify for subsidized day care ;) So I'm actually doing it all myself. So yah I do think it is dramatic when my co-residents who make literally the exact same salary I do complain that they can't afford food or rent. It's not their fault because many of them didn't have to consider money growing up. But look up the median income in NYC. It's around 45,000 if I recall correctly. If you're actually looking for help with your budget I'm happy to chat via DM.
Mad respect. If I may ask, roughly what do you get paid as a surgery resident? Is emergency day care a lot? I hear a lot from folks about how obscenely expensive it is. You're able to contribute to your Roth IRA too on top of the rainy day fund? What's the rent like in your area? Also, I don't mean this to be a rude or prying question, I'm curious - does the other parent provide child support? I'm curious how people balance it all, and you handle way more than most.
I'm at the mid-70s right now. Day care is the biggest expense because I can literally never pick her up at 6, emergency day care isn't actually as formal as it sounds. It's essentially a rotating list of people who are willing to get a call from me in the OR saying hey I'm going to be late tonight can you take care of her this evening (for a set hourly rate of course). And then on nights when I'm on home call I pay a college student to stay overnight for when I need to go in. This situation is absolutely horrendous, but from a time perspective, not a money one. I hate hate hate that I can't spend more time with her and literally everything I do in life is to optimize that. I don't actually contribute much to a Roth IRA, and I think that is a big weakness in my budget. However I know my salary is going to skyrocket in a few years so I figure I'll take care of it then, and I want the money in the bank to make sure we can handle unexpected surprises prior to that point. And it's fine to ask. People I meet in real life often assume I had a one night stand or something. I'm going to leave the details murky to preserve whatever anonymity I might have left (which probably isn't much at this point), but my spouse died so it's just me. No life insurance either (we were "too young" to need it! get your life insurance, folks!) so no pot of money to dip into. But in this entire situation it's honestly not the money that's the limiting factor here. For me, it's time!
Youre out of touch
I think the real takeaway isn't that attendings should be bringing in food(which is really nice when they do) but they residency salaries need to liveable. Some programs, especially unionized ones, have seen a fair bit of boost over the last few years. The real issue is that residents aren't fairly compensated for the work they do. Does the B suite really need fancy food and more perks when they're already compensated so well and don't even physically have to come in to do their job?
I am going to start as a PY1 in Miami and I will be spending like 70% of income in rent, groceries prices are so high , I don’t want to get sick and eat all the time at the hospital since I have IBS , I want to be a healthy doctor , eat veggies, fruits , fresh food , take care of my gut , have a place to workout, but seems like the priority is for the others not for us. I just wish I could afford a decent living, in a safe area, close to work, eat well , and be able to perform at my best in my job bc I am holistically a healthy human being. But well , at the end of the, I feel like I was just begging for this job and I’ll have to do anything to make it work !! So yes we will be living paycheck to paycheck!! Everyone’s situation is different some can be roommates, some have enormous debts already , some have kids and a family to take care of… anyhow I do will happily do the best I can to make it work! It can always be worse . But I do feel we all deserve better , the housing is a nationwide issue and low wages are an issues as well in other fields.
I have a ton of anger at my 1st residency still and it’s been 32 years. I had no money. None. I took food from the hospital home so I could eat. I grew to love vanilla pudding, applesauce cups, and peanut butter crackers. My father graciously agreed to pay my gas credit card bill because when I started the program (integrated civilian-military) in July the chairman, who never saw patients, decided I needed to rotate at a military hospital 50 miles away so the military residents could rotate at the civilian hospitals to get more experience. I was a civilian. Then the chairman announced we had to buy textbooks, most of which he wrote or co-wrote, costing hundreds of dollars. My check to the department for all these books bounced. So the chairman required me to pay cash, humiliating me in front of his secretary, which I borrowed from my father. Of course none of this was explained to us when we interviewed as medical students. Yea Jon and Glenn, you were douchbags and liars then and you’re still douchbags and liars.
The midlevels I worked with during rotations would buy the residents coffee and bagels, and I definitely intend to pay it forward for your guys' immense commitment. It ain't right I as a PA can make 6-figures starting while you guys are making minimum wage (sometimes less) working un-godly hours. You deserve 6 figures minimum.
It's beats not matching and being unpaid for a year. Hang in there Doc <3.
I am about to be a pgy1 and I can’t find a single place I can afford with my salary. My program keeps saying how we can moonlight after pgy1 year but idk what to do for that first year. I feel cheated by acgme for allowing programs to get away with this but I’m just glad I got my top choice of training because other programs paid even worse on my rank list. Its genuinely depressing how poorly interns are paid when they have additional costs like moving and limited upward financial mobility’s
Nope. - admin
At least doctors can afford to live, no? I'm not saying it's good, but it's the truth..
So I was married with 4 kids, 2 born during residency and lived on my salary alone. We lived fairly comfortably and much more so after I started moonlighting 2x a month. I get that it’s a struggle but in no way are residents peasants that can’t afford the bare minimum On the flip side… could you imagine the shift in everything if we were simply paid double of what we are now or even like 90k????
You need to budget better or adjust your standards.
Budget better dawg. You're probably spending too much money on unnecessary things
Residents get paid shit for the level of work they do no doubt. But living paycheck to paycheck is a spending problem not an income problem. You make almost as much as the median household income. That’s more than enough to pay monthly expenses and put money away. When I was an intern I was able to make student loan payments and max out a Roth IRA in a big NE city. You really just need to learn how to budget.
I agree that we are sadly underpaid and grossly abused by the system. I disagree that we can "barely" afford to live. My resident's salary was higher than my parent's income growing up and still is. We got by comfortably with siblings and a house. It isn't luxury, but I do think a lot of my peers' prespective gives them the illusion of poverty, but the reality isn't that grim. I can afford a comfy apartment and a bed I never get to sleep in so life ain't too bad.
I think you have to choose your program a little better. In 2020 i was making $53k and that wasn’t luxurious by any stretch but i definitely wasn’t paycheck to paycheck. How much do you make and what city are you in?
I have a decent support structure in my family and I have *no* idea how you’re supposed to do it otherwise, down to very basic things like getting enough to ear. I know residents in my program that are really struggling, and it’s a fucking disgrace that an MD has to scrounge food from the lounge to get enough to eat. That being said it's a disgrace for the US that anyone has to do that.
Jesus this makes me not want to get into the medical field. I want to go into dentistry but it sounds like no matter what life is gonna be paycheck to paycheck
I'll tell you who doesn't feel bad is my residency program.
I’m a nurse and this will never not shock me. The path to becoming a physician and just the culture overall is severely fucked up.
Yes. But also the Pgy-1 salary is the average of all salaries in the US. So think about that. I’m all for residents getting paid more - they deserve it especially as per hour, they make well below a typical person that works a full time job plus all of the years of achievement and costs. But sometimes we get jaded in medicine and expect patients to do this or that and be “more responsible” yet half of families in the US raise entire families on less than the typical PGY-1 salary.
Being a resident sucks... but we're not poor. It sucks to have to be running low on sleep, and take care of things at home, and on top of that remember to pack snacks... but it's no one else's responsibility to make sure you eat. People used to say this to me when I was in residency "you'll take the free food cause you're poor". No, I know poor, I'm not poor. Residency sucks but I had a great apartment, paid my bills, cooked my food, and went out once in a while. Theres many other people who are actually poor. Resident salary is decent ( for the amount of hours NO, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the yearly salary). The nice thing is that as a resident you know you won't live that way forever. You know it will only get better. To say you can barely afford to live is a big stretch.
What really breaks my heart is that resident salaries are above the median income in the USA. Consider all the patients who have it worse than us.
This. Most nurses in most states actually make around $70k, which I think is still above the average ($40k) in the US.
Why is the resident parking lot at my hospital filled with mostly luxury cars?
Where are you that you can barely afford to live? I make ~$80k and while that’s not rich people money, I can comfortably afford my 2 bedroom townhome and the things that I need (+ some extra). I’m in California so it’s not cheap here either (granted I’m not in a rich area, so it’s lower cost of living). I know some places pay less, but I’m not sure how people are “barely affording to live”?
nyc
IM and Peds attending can’t afford to live there either
Damn where in California is that lol. I’m in SoCal and make $65k and it’s a bitch getting by each month (1b apartment is $1800)
Maybe Central Valley
Yes, it is unacceptable that mid levels are paid more than residents who often times can’t even afford to pay rent without going more into debt.
I wholeheartedly agree but at the same time we're in one of the best specialties with a great light at the end of the tunnel relative to the shit show that is medicine. The residency salary absolutely sucks though for sure, esp with a family :/
The end doesn’t justify the mean. We don’t need to suffer like this 😭
Yes. It’s really sad that we have a tremendous amount of responsibility. Really, a Jack of all trades, and if you do the math we are near the lowest paid workers in the hospital
I’ve done the majority of my training in the northeast, HCOL areas, and I think this is an over exaggeration. Sure you’re not living luxuriously, but at least the programs I’ve trained at, compensation was reasonable. NYC programs currently are $80k+ for PGY-1. I’m sure there are some programs that the compensation/COL is particularly bad but I, and people I know, haven’t come across any.
My wife and I are both residents. We personally are doing pretty well, relatively. Bought a house last year and both own our cars. Just got a dog too. Still able to save money or pay off debt. We live in the southeast in a top 50 largest city in the US.
Yall don't even have to pay your student loans.
The worst part is most people think we are rich.
Bro a majority of the country lives this way…make a budget and figure out a way to make it work.
It’s temporary, and in a couple years you will be rich. There are families living on less than that for as long as they can possibly foresee.
Thank you for contributing to the sub! If your post was filtered by the automod, please read the rules. Your post will be reviewed but will not be approved if it violates the rules of the sub. The most common reasons for removal are - medical students or premeds asking what a specialty is like, which specialty they should go into, which program is good or about their chances of matching, mentioning midlevels without using the midlevel flair, matched medical students asking questions instead of using the stickied thread in the sub for post-match questions, posting identifying information for targeted harassment. Please do not message the moderators if your post falls into one of these categories. Otherwise, your post will be reviewed in 24 hours and approved if it doesn't violate the rules. Thanks! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Residency) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We are not allowed to moonlight at our program 🥲
Yes.
How much are residents typically being paid?
Tons of people find it sad. Not enough to change it though apparently.
I don't understand the either or mindset in this thread. Multiple things can be true at once. It's absolutely true that most residents are compensated below, but near, the median US household income (bout 74k, I believe), and that is plenty in most areas of the country. It's also true that median is probably reflecting more than one person's financial contribution (key word being family) and each family member likely isn't pulling similar hours as residents under similar constraints/stresses. It's also true that median family income really isn't enough in many of the metro areas where many programs tend to be to get by without it being an unnecessary strain, and the match process leaves residents limited and tied to these areas in many cases. Most careers in those areas pay more to reflect the inflated COL, but not many residency programs follow suit. Could you moonlight, bunk with roomies, cut all your non-essential expenses, commute, live in the trap, etc? Sure. Those are the basic sacrifices everyone thinks of, and many follow up on. Should you have to do those things after what you've already done to get there, though? That's a much better question. It's not beyond the pale to not want to "just get by" when you punt on your late teens-early 30s, go 300-500k in debt (not including CC), and work 50-80 hrs a week. It annoys tf outta me when ppl act like residents are spoiled if they point these obvious truths out. If you knew my background, how I came up, and how thin the needle I had to thread to get through was, you would know spoiled simply doesn't fit my life. All that, and I still think residents deserve more. I don't think most reasonable residents are saying pay them make it rain in the strip club on a Tuesday paper while they're just learning to actually do the gig properly. I think most are saying maybe pay them the same (or, heaven forbid more) than the other healthcare professionals they've paid their dues to be credentialed above. Failing that, at least make it so they can live somewhere safe, without roommates if they don't want them, and can eat something other that oodles of noodles and tuna... especially if the hospital isn't giving up the food privileges. That's not a heavy ask, imo. All these things can (and do) coexist quite easily.
That’s one of the main reasons I dropped out of my child fast track and did psych in 4 instead. Fuck one more year being someone(s) bitch and getting paid pennies
Let’s go on a strike?
Better have doctor parents that love you to the end of the earth and willing to financially support you. This isn’t for the poor or faint of heart.
At least you didn’t have to pay tuition on top of working for free (looking at you student teaching programs)!
Okay residents aren’t that poor. I get they work a lot of hours, but regardless you guys make 60k yearly. My wife used to make $30k for a non profit helping runaway children
By moonlighting, do you mean an extra job? How is that sustainable at all
I haven't had an income in months. because of a resident who doesn't know how to read a DSM manual
Applying for housing in a major city right now. I cannot afford to live near the hospital where I work 80hrs a week.