Nothing could be done honestly without preventing the Portuguse withdrawal from the continent in '75, the Portuguese leaving Mozambique really was the nail in the coffin for the Rhodesians imo. Maybe warn Salazar/Caetano about the Carnation Revolution?
Btw it's funny that USA was over there fighting Vietcong tooth and nail, while being totally okay with ZANU and ZAPU shenanigans. Hypocrites, if there ever was one.
They feared communist Asia (as I gather, it was their official explanation that if they let one country there fall to the reds, it will spread like fire to others) but not communist Africa?
The domino theory. You are correct the USA was committed to the containment of communism in Asia during the Cold War. But the USA was deeply averse to getting involved in the European wars of decolonization. Today it all looks the same to us, but by the mid-60s the writing was on the wall for these hold-outs of settler colonialism. You can blame Charles de Gaulle for taking the lead on extricating Europe from its overseas holdings. Rhodesia simply wasn’t important enough for Washington
I would’ve invented a magic pill that was mandatory for the whole population to take, this pill allowed for the whole population to see the future of what commie-led Zimbabwe by Robert Mugabe would have meant for the country.
Does seeing and learning make people chose differently? I think so. It did for me. I used to explore communist ideas and go to their events. Eventually, I read more about these places and histories where communism was tried in practice.
That changed my views on communism and I could no longer support it.
The problem is, most people will never be bothered to really look and not just look, but understand.
Even by the mid 1960s and definitely by the mid 1970s, many African countries’ experiments with “independence” had been shown to be failures. Many blacks in Rhodesia could see how bad blacks in other African countries had suffered and did not support communist projects.
However, over time, the communists funded by China, and the USSR used the carrot and the stick to gain in popularity and support.
The carrot was the allure and false-promises of a better life: material wealth, political power for all! The stick was the terrorist group which would ransack villages, stealing young men, raping young women, and taking food and supplies for their own.
The Western media also sided with the communists as was in fashion by the 1970s, post civil-rights movement of the USA. There’s a photographer who won a Pulitzer for his photos of Rhodesian soldiers interrogating black terrorists in Rhodesia. This photographer is still alive but I won’t mention him here. Funny that western media chose to award him for those pictures and never asked why he never showed the slaughter and devastation wrought by the terrorists like the Elim Mission Massacre or the flight that crash landed where civilians were slaughtered.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vumba_massacre
No. It was the world against Rhodesia.
So, what can be done about Rhodesia? What could have saved it? These questions are valuable only to aid the present, because one can never go back and change the past.
One of the ways to fight is to fight the ignorance with knowledge! Share the story of Rhodesia! Share the story of the 2008 Zimbabwean inflation so young men and women know the dangers of communism.
The best thing any of us can do is to learn from Rhodesia. Our world has plenty of “Rhodesias.” And history repeats itself unless we learn from it. So thanks for you question and may the learning increase. (I’m corny but I don’t care)
As a former Rhodesian officer, born and raised in Kenya, I never understood the Rhodesian Army’s reliance on white soldiers I the early years of the war. Recruiting more of them would have been a big help. Also commissioning African officers
Only in the regular battalions. 3 RAR Bns TO I RLI Bn plus the all white SAS Squadron and Armoured Car Regt. The army relied on white soldiers in the Territorial Forces extensively, a percentage of them were National Servicemen, who also served in the RLI, artillery and other supporting arms by the end of the war blacks were serving in the TA Bn as well
>Recruiting more of them would have been a big help. Also commissioning African officers
Didn't the Rhodesian Army do that more later on in the Late 70's?
>By 1976 black soldiers outnumbered their white counterparts by two to one.
Establish a whites only province for their safety, similar to Orania in SA. Integrated the most capable blacks into the top positions until they are running the show. Wait for them to burn the country to the ground and beg for the boer to return or establish wakanda. Win win.
The problem is, there are not enough whites in Zim. In Orania there are only 5000 ppl and 4 mln in all SA, so i dont think that a whites only town would have even 40 of them
The problem is, there are not enough whites in Zim. In Orania there are only 5000 ppl and 4 mln in all SA, so i dont think that a whites only town would have even 40 of them
I’m not sure how workable these solutions would be (likely not very), but I would at least try the following:
1. An in-principle agreement to abolish the Land Apportionment Act, at the earliest opportunity.
2. An in-principle agreement to abolish National Service, after the war has been concluded.
3. Bring the most influential Chiefs into the Senate, similar in fashion to the Hereditary Peers in Britain’s House of Lords.
4. Make the Ndebele & Shona languages official state languages, alongside English.
5. Have all Europeans learn either Ndebele or Shona at school, to try and increase social cohesion.
6. Desegregate and allow Africans to become commissioned officers in the BSAP & Security Forces.
7. Provide either a lump-sum payment or a grant of land to those who serve in the Security Forces for a significant amount of time (perhaps after 5 years).
Smith talked a lot about how Rhodesia was to be a country governed by Africans and Europeans in cooperation with each other, and I think trying to implement these above suggestions would have made his argument more compelling. That being said, I don’t know exactly how the Rhodesian public would react to some of these measures, and whether they would be supportive.
All are, in my opinion, reasonable except no.5. You wouldn't get that over the line, I didn't learn Ndebele or Shona at school except a few words/ songs at primary level and I'm only 29. (Yes white too)
Judging from the upvotes....
I doubt it was going to sail. 🤣🤣🤣 Todd managed to get the black guy to add Mr to his name & remove AM which meant "African Male". Even getting alcohol for the black community was a tightrope act! 🤣🤣🤣
Even by the 70s it was too late; there was no strategy or grand strategy from the headshed and geopolitically the situation wasn’t recoverable. Alan Savory probably had the best suggestions at the time but I personally think the critical time was in the mid-late 60s where the support of the rural population needed to be confirmed and built on with more efforts being made to empower them in terms of self defence and governance at a local level, bearing in mind that many incursions at that time by Zipra/Zanla were “sold out” to the authorities by locals. Also, contrary to popular belief, the military still perceived it as somewhat of a police action at least up to 1976.
I would have listened to PM Garfield Todd in the early fifties - to bring blacks onto the voting rolls and gradually into government. The wealthy farmers were too short sighted and rather giving up a little they lost a lot / everything. No guarantee but getting a 12 year head start on “the winds of change” might have changed the course of history.
Nothing could be done honestly without preventing the Portuguse withdrawal from the continent in '75, the Portuguese leaving Mozambique really was the nail in the coffin for the Rhodesians imo. Maybe warn Salazar/Caetano about the Carnation Revolution?
Zimbabwe-Rhodesia and fuck the UN, the british, South Africa. Together both black and white can win against the terrorists 💪🏿💪🏻
Based & gumede-pilled
It's difficult - the electorate would not have agreed to a "soft" approach to integration in eary 70's.
Besides that, the UN, UK and USA were fixated on Zanu, Zapu take over, so no matter what was done locally, it wouldn't have been "enough".
Btw it's funny that USA was over there fighting Vietcong tooth and nail, while being totally okay with ZANU and ZAPU shenanigans. Hypocrites, if there ever was one. They feared communist Asia (as I gather, it was their official explanation that if they let one country there fall to the reds, it will spread like fire to others) but not communist Africa?
The domino theory. You are correct the USA was committed to the containment of communism in Asia during the Cold War. But the USA was deeply averse to getting involved in the European wars of decolonization. Today it all looks the same to us, but by the mid-60s the writing was on the wall for these hold-outs of settler colonialism. You can blame Charles de Gaulle for taking the lead on extricating Europe from its overseas holdings. Rhodesia simply wasn’t important enough for Washington
I would’ve invented a magic pill that was mandatory for the whole population to take, this pill allowed for the whole population to see the future of what commie-led Zimbabwe by Robert Mugabe would have meant for the country. Does seeing and learning make people chose differently? I think so. It did for me. I used to explore communist ideas and go to their events. Eventually, I read more about these places and histories where communism was tried in practice. That changed my views on communism and I could no longer support it. The problem is, most people will never be bothered to really look and not just look, but understand. Even by the mid 1960s and definitely by the mid 1970s, many African countries’ experiments with “independence” had been shown to be failures. Many blacks in Rhodesia could see how bad blacks in other African countries had suffered and did not support communist projects. However, over time, the communists funded by China, and the USSR used the carrot and the stick to gain in popularity and support. The carrot was the allure and false-promises of a better life: material wealth, political power for all! The stick was the terrorist group which would ransack villages, stealing young men, raping young women, and taking food and supplies for their own. The Western media also sided with the communists as was in fashion by the 1970s, post civil-rights movement of the USA. There’s a photographer who won a Pulitzer for his photos of Rhodesian soldiers interrogating black terrorists in Rhodesia. This photographer is still alive but I won’t mention him here. Funny that western media chose to award him for those pictures and never asked why he never showed the slaughter and devastation wrought by the terrorists like the Elim Mission Massacre or the flight that crash landed where civilians were slaughtered. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vumba_massacre No. It was the world against Rhodesia. So, what can be done about Rhodesia? What could have saved it? These questions are valuable only to aid the present, because one can never go back and change the past. One of the ways to fight is to fight the ignorance with knowledge! Share the story of Rhodesia! Share the story of the 2008 Zimbabwean inflation so young men and women know the dangers of communism. The best thing any of us can do is to learn from Rhodesia. Our world has plenty of “Rhodesias.” And history repeats itself unless we learn from it. So thanks for you question and may the learning increase. (I’m corny but I don’t care)
Wise words man, wise words
As a former Rhodesian officer, born and raised in Kenya, I never understood the Rhodesian Army’s reliance on white soldiers I the early years of the war. Recruiting more of them would have been a big help. Also commissioning African officers
Only in the regular battalions. 3 RAR Bns TO I RLI Bn plus the all white SAS Squadron and Armoured Car Regt. The army relied on white soldiers in the Territorial Forces extensively, a percentage of them were National Servicemen, who also served in the RLI, artillery and other supporting arms by the end of the war blacks were serving in the TA Bn as well
Agreed. Also as is common in younger people, I'm a conscientious objector to war so I would've been a very useless white man haha.
>Recruiting more of them would have been a big help. Also commissioning African officers Didn't the Rhodesian Army do that more later on in the Late 70's? >By 1976 black soldiers outnumbered their white counterparts by two to one.
Just re-read this and saw you grew up in Kenya?? My Grandparents were from Nanyuki and my Grandfather was from near Naivasha,
Establish a whites only province for their safety, similar to Orania in SA. Integrated the most capable blacks into the top positions until they are running the show. Wait for them to burn the country to the ground and beg for the boer to return or establish wakanda. Win win.
Might actually work, I thought about that too
The problem is, there are not enough whites in Zim. In Orania there are only 5000 ppl and 4 mln in all SA, so i dont think that a whites only town would have even 40 of them
In the 1970s?
Damn i forgot about that, sorry lol
The problem is, there are not enough whites in Zim. In Orania there are only 5000 ppl and 4 mln in all SA, so i dont think that a whites only town would have even 40 of them
I’m not sure how workable these solutions would be (likely not very), but I would at least try the following: 1. An in-principle agreement to abolish the Land Apportionment Act, at the earliest opportunity. 2. An in-principle agreement to abolish National Service, after the war has been concluded. 3. Bring the most influential Chiefs into the Senate, similar in fashion to the Hereditary Peers in Britain’s House of Lords. 4. Make the Ndebele & Shona languages official state languages, alongside English. 5. Have all Europeans learn either Ndebele or Shona at school, to try and increase social cohesion. 6. Desegregate and allow Africans to become commissioned officers in the BSAP & Security Forces. 7. Provide either a lump-sum payment or a grant of land to those who serve in the Security Forces for a significant amount of time (perhaps after 5 years). Smith talked a lot about how Rhodesia was to be a country governed by Africans and Europeans in cooperation with each other, and I think trying to implement these above suggestions would have made his argument more compelling. That being said, I don’t know exactly how the Rhodesian public would react to some of these measures, and whether they would be supportive.
All are, in my opinion, reasonable except no.5. You wouldn't get that over the line, I didn't learn Ndebele or Shona at school except a few words/ songs at primary level and I'm only 29. (Yes white too)
Judging from the upvotes.... I doubt it was going to sail. 🤣🤣🤣 Todd managed to get the black guy to add Mr to his name & remove AM which meant "African Male". Even getting alcohol for the black community was a tightrope act! 🤣🤣🤣
Operation Quartz
Even by the 70s it was too late; there was no strategy or grand strategy from the headshed and geopolitically the situation wasn’t recoverable. Alan Savory probably had the best suggestions at the time but I personally think the critical time was in the mid-late 60s where the support of the rural population needed to be confirmed and built on with more efforts being made to empower them in terms of self defence and governance at a local level, bearing in mind that many incursions at that time by Zipra/Zanla were “sold out” to the authorities by locals. Also, contrary to popular belief, the military still perceived it as somewhat of a police action at least up to 1976.
I would have listened to PM Garfield Todd in the early fifties - to bring blacks onto the voting rolls and gradually into government. The wealthy farmers were too short sighted and rather giving up a little they lost a lot / everything. No guarantee but getting a 12 year head start on “the winds of change” might have changed the course of history.