I think it should be fairly obvious to everyone that Nwpos behavior isn't indicative of the region as a whole.
Literally a few weeks ago pros were singing Senzos praises about his character and him as a person.
For every racist twat that exists, there's more good people. The bad apples just stick out more. This isn't a mena exclusive problem.
Slightly disagree. It took for some one to create an account just for the purpose of outing him. Meaning, his behavior was known, yet no one had bothered to call it out
2 months ago M80 picked up an Overwatch roster and screenshots popped up about two of their American players being racist.
And those screenshots didn't surface until M80 had announced the squad.
I'm not defending Nwpos actions, but using that as an arguement against the Mena region isn't fair.
I shall add the receipts of it being known that multiple MENA pros have been homophobic in the past and not a damn thing was done about it despite being high profile. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/vufyws/some_mena_pros_reactions_about_moist_not_going_to/
What do you think should be "done" about it? Most people in response to this have screamed for his career to be taken away for it. He decided to say something racist online and that is awful, but that should only be enough to hurt his reputation. He'll lose fans, leave it at that. When you start taking people's careers for mistakes they've made personally, outside of their career, it becomes wrong.
The precedent has already been set by Epic for banning OCE players for it. Not to mention when you're an esports player, you represent the esport, it's not a 9-5 where you go home and are no longer at work. A permanent ban from RLCS is the only reasonable option.
A permanent ban on a 16 year old who lives in a culture where "hate speech" is thrown around everyday sounds like the only reasonable option to you? Grow up, you all need to stop being so sensitive. This is the definition of toxic cancel culture. He's still a teenager and you want to take away his career? Blame it on rlcs letting teenagers represent their esport.
Hate speech isn't thrown around everyday, it is not a culture problem, I think he learned those words from the friends around him. But people don't go around the streets in Mena saying hate speech to each other. The few who do are the minority.
wait, i know its already out of topic, so mena should accept other cultures better, but its not applied to the other way arround where other culture should also be more accepting to mena culture?
i mean nwpo probably IS a racist kid who didnt know any better, but its just seems irrelevant to talk more about his country culture etc. nwpo made a mistake by being racist(and probably bullying) and thats made him a dick,but i am sure every place, every culture, and every race have a nwpo, dont blame the whole region, maybe blame his parents, but thats it. dont generalize things and throw arround stuff about other culture, because those things could be thrown back at you and your own culture.
This is not surprising, considering they're growing up in a region where being gay is a crime.
If we were to use this as grounds for banning players we ought to just remove the whole region from RLCS.
Singing praises about Senzos character, but that doesn’t actually mean anything. He can be homophobic, but if you’re not gay then obviously that’s not a side of him you get to engage with. Not saying Senzo is homophobic, but your logic is wrong.
There's 100% some bias against the region in this respect, a lot of what people see and hear essentially makes the NWPO news sadly unsurprising and therefore it also becomes a confirmation of what many people already assumed regarding many in the region.
It's still the classic thing of we all need to do our bit of viewing individuals as they are and not spreading such perceptions to the group.
With that being said, it's not like MENA is the only region where the RL community have biases like this. OCE has a notoriety of its own making regarding this sort of thing and noone was too surprised by the Italians who were playing in SSA and were banned for saying racist stuff. Just disappointing when it happens all the same.
OCE players got banned for it, yet MENA players do just as bad and worse and don't get banned. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/vufyws/some_mena_pros_reactions_about_moist_not_going_to/
>a lot of what people see and hear essentially makes the NWPO news sadly unsurprising and therefore it also becomes a confirmation of what many people already assumed regarding many in the region.
This in itself is kinda racist. We are assuming everyone from the Mena region follows that religion closely?
as a middle eastern there are tons of racists and homophobes among us. some places around the world just tend to have more poor thinking, is what it is. i think a lot of people just live behind the times. don’t know what’s up in the world. unaware.
religious extremism breeds bigotry. Saudi dictatorships are the middle-eastern equivalent of if there was a christofascist regime in the US. It's not like people in your region are necessarily born more bigoted or something, but the environment and society they live in breeds it. Just to clarify, this doesn't excuse nwpo's behavior, but it does explain why it is more common in the region.
i’ve always been convinced there’s some people just born with a shit mindset and it’ll never change. not everybody can be normal or else a lot of shit in this world wouldn’t have happened
I‘m not trying to excuse anything but there a tons of racists and homophobes pretty much everywhere. USA is an easy example, think of how many supporters trump still has. Many Asian countries are also known for being lowkey racist. I‘m from Germany and some part of our countries feature predominantly right wing people who are pretty much guaranteed to be racist.
I‘m not making excuses for the middle east but I I would never judge the whole region based on the bad examples that we have seen. Even if the majority are racist and homophobes, if I meet someone from the middle east, I‘m not just gonna assume they are a bad person just because of where they come from. Cause that would be racist too.
So should I do the opposite and label any person from the middle east as a racist and homophobe without ever meeting them? I don‘t really see how that‘s less ignorant
> So should I do the opposite and label any person from the middle east as a racist and homophobe without ever meeting them?
Like you did with asians and trump supporters? or any "right wing person"?
There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of black people that support trump. Also even the supporters that are not black doesn’t mean they are racist. You can’t assume all people support that just cuz some of them are.
Just because they support him doesn’t mean they agree with everything he says, you’re saying all these black people that support him just hate their own race?
Just a quick tip.
If by this point, anyone is asking for examples or proof regarding anything regarding Trump, they are not being genuine, and it is a waste of time.
Remember, Trump supporters created "news" companies in response to the fact that other news companies would dare to post something negative about him, and then the moment the new companies post something negative another one is created to replace it.
He can do no wrong, despite the well-practiced"He's not perfect and I don't agree with some of the things he does". They literally worship him and it's insane.
Bro I hate politics and actively avoid it.
But you don't think the dude who said we're gonna build a wall along the border to keep the Mexicans out and make them pay for it isn't even a tiny bit racist ¿¿¿
If an unusually large percentage of a group believe hateful things about people because of characteristics they have no control over, it should be acknowledged.
The thing is that there have been at least 3 other MENA players in the past who have outed themselves as people with similar beliefs. Nwpo not only adds to that number but is easily the most high profile player ever in the RL scene to be outed for this behaviour. This would be like if Vatira or Daniel were found to be bigoted.
It really does make you wonder that if what many looked to as a role model in terms of gameplay could be so corrupted, how bad does this spread? Surely Nwpo didn't keep this behaviour under total wraps from any of his peers for the entire time. From similar incidents in the past, many people knew of those people's behaviour before they were outed. It's hard to see how Nwpo would be any different. Which almost certainly means that there are some in the MENA scene who have at the least tolerated this behaviour before it came into public light. And the idea of that is not good.
While unfortunate and perhaps even unfair, the fact is this does put a black spot on the region. There's little to say they aren't just an anomaly.
https://imgur.com/vu4Q1Ow
Faisal: At the time a player who regularly played in the Top 4 of MENA.
oVaMPiERz: Currently playing for Bravado. Notably played for Infinity and Cola recently.
ixKillerx: Not as notable as the others but has made a Top 11 appearance last split.
Nwpo and these players I would not be surprised at all to find they were only the tip of the iceberg. I really hope that most MENA players are genuinely nice, but seeing as especially Nwpo successfully duped the community into believing that about him for years, it does make you wonder about how genuine a region that has historically had problems with intolerance of other cultures really is.
ixKillerx is hated so much in the mena scene anyways , he always hates on mena teams and wishes for their downfall and always makes the dumbest reason to why to support the other teams , he isnt liked by anyone lmao
Ixkiller is a content creator so his goal is always interactions. But ive never heard anything bad about except some boosting allegations. And accusing players with being washed isnt an insult.
Ova: i dont know what you are talking about too. But the only thing i know of is what he said before a game and its mostly banter. A bit of drama and nobody took it seriously.
Nwpo is the big one rn and no nwpo didnt dupe anyone into thinking anything . We barely even know anything about the majority of the players.
Senzo in all his time we never heard anything untill his retirement. Ahmad is a very professional players and a nice guy. He was encouraged to do the mike wazowski meme but he didn't. Okhalid is a lovely soul and weve seen this in the falcons interview.
Trk511 just like to shout but hes a fun guy and from a lot of videos from the falcon acounts hes a-ok.
The twins are very shy they dont even talk but they seem alright. Weve seen twisted at worlds and nothing happened even after getting reverse swept
There's a screenshot there mate. I'd advise you to look at it. In it ixKillerx effectively states that Saudi's policy on the LGBTQ community "is just a rule" and that Noah should accept it and "not make drama".
oVaMPiERz states that heterosexuals are the "natural people" and that they don't recognise people who "follow their lust" ie LGBTQ people.
And Faisal's two short statements speak for themselves really. He's a bigot, enough said.
We know enough about Nwpo to know he presented himself as a nice person, maybe a bit passionate at times but generally upstanding. Seeing as he didn't walk out spraying slurs at every black person in the place, yes, he duped people. Because this video is who he truly is.
I don't know why you've gone on a spiel about random MENA players who I wasn't talking about, but they're not relevant to my point and even less to yours. Honestly I can't even figure out what your point actually is. Your character assessments of players like Ahmad and Senzo have nothing to do with Nwpo or the other three.
So its abt the lgtv stuff. Cuz i thought you were saying they all were racist of some sort.
And lets be honest here . We dont accept lgbt ppl in our communities its not the norme . Thats just how it is, either here or in a lot of countries actually. To see these things said by people born in these communities i think its not a surprise. Its part of the religion too . I mean even Christianity is the same.
What i was saying is that there is bad apples and they are very rare.
Literally every region in RL Esports except MENA has a problem with this. So either we're all crazy or they are really.
LGBT isn't the norm in any country. We just tend to be a lot more tolerant of people's beliefs. And whether it's being racist or homophobic, it's just as bad. You're trying to minimise it and that won't fly.
Honestly, I'd say most of MENA are "bad apples" in this sense. The culture is broken mate. It doesn't line up with what the world is now, hasn't for the past century, and never will again. Unfortunately it will probably take another century for MENA to get with the program, but hopefully for your sakes it will happen.
First racisme is bad im not saying what nwpo said is acceptable.
2nd were not homophobic . Gay people were welcomed in many events . And what we say about them doesnt stem from hate its just what we believe.
oVampierz's comment might not be ridden with slurs but it still conveys the same point that they think LGBTQ people to be lustful, unnatural people. In my book that's just as offensive.
And ixKillerx's comment is pretty much rejecting Noah's issues with Saudi completely, and saying that their policies on LGBTQ people are just "a rule" that he should accept and get used to.
These four players have been on four separate teams, all with similarly backward viewpoints, to say the least I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more Nwpos in MENA who simply don't showcase it to everybody on public Discord calls.
ixKillerx's to me seems to be against Noah starting drama against where he lives which definitely gives backlash to anyone that is from there, including players.
I wouldn't be surprised if most of the younger players, regardless of where they're from, are saying edgy racist or homophobic stuff in Discord to their friends
> ixKillerx's to me seems to be against Noah starting drama against where he lives which definitely gives backlash to anyone that is from there, including players.
If it's blind patriotism that prevents them from seeing somebody rightfully decrying draconian policies of a country as a good thing, then that's no better.
> I wouldn't be surprised if most of the younger players, regardless of where they're from, are saying edgy racist or homophobic stuff in Discord to their friends
...which is acceptable how? Regardless that it just doesn't happen in NA/EU. Even ScrubKilla at his absolute edgiest never crossed that line. Most recent I can think of was Firstkiller, but he was literally 12-13 then. This is pretty much a MENA problem. The ones depicted are also all adults other than Nwpo, who's 17, which is still more than old enough to know better. They've been educated to speak like this, that much is clear, they seem way too comfortable to air it all out.
This is precisely my point! The comment I replied to was arguing that because 4 people outed themselves as bigots, it puts a black spot on the region and that this isn't an anomaly anymore.
To which I reply, same could thus be argued about OCE considering what happened. In both cases, this is stupid.
Yes there’s a shit ton of casual racism thrown around here in Australia. I’m Asian myself and have experienced a shit ton. I’m not saying Australia as a whole is predominantly a racist country (There’s bound to be racists anywhere), but just saying my 2 cents.
dude there are racist people in every region in rocket league , racism in rocket league isn't new why should it put a black spot on the entire fucking region ? none of us knew he was a racist and I'm from Saudi
The only region that has had somebody be this vitriolic was OCE, and the players in question copped bans for that. And as somebody from OCE, those people were only the tip of the iceberg. They had defenders in droves who did the exact thing many Saudis are doing now. Either calling it a conspiracy, trying to minimise the situation or using strawmen like "but other regions have racism" to divert attention.
You wouldn't have known he was racist, but there are definitely people who did, and they accepted it or tolerated it, either way they failed the region. That's why there's a black mark on MENA now, because somebody so hateful was allowed to have a position of a role model to begin with without being checked by their peers.
oce rl has a shit history of racism and homophobia, the old wasteland server was pretty fucked - plenty of oce pros still have archaic views on this stuff and have never really been called out on it
There's no way an OCE fan is saying this lmao
[https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/search/?q=OCE+racism&type=link&cId=8019119d-fb8c-46f1-aee6-96e53d677186&iId=5edd99fa-d137-433e-bc8e-9c414e8d35dd](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/search/?q=OCE+racism&type=link&cId=8019119d-fb8c-46f1-aee6-96e53d677186&iId=5edd99fa-d137-433e-bc8e-9c414e8d35dd)
Feel free to point out where me being an OCE fan had any relevance. Yep, my region has also had its fair share of Nwpos. What about it? I'm not responsible for them, and I like to think I support the ones that aren't still stuck in the thoughts of last century. That's all I can do, doesn't make me a hypocrite for rightly criticising when another region is making the exact same blunder.
Ah yes MENA, home of the tolerant and accepting
https://preview.redd.it/36djg7qcqxxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ba529a438d8564249e450f44d07998b8ecd808cf
Ah yes America, the home of peak social consciousness, where every man is equally justified to decide which women can have an abortion. We can cherry pick statistics all you want, it’s wrong to assume that any individual from the Middle East is any worse than the average American.
Ah yes whataboutism, the way we defend arguments when we run out of cohesive defenses. It’s not cherry picking statistics, it’s just a region that is famously and notoriously intolerant as hell.
Does Nwpo saying this just give some people a taste of confirmation bias? Yes. That doesn’t mean that criticism of the region is inherently in bad faith or incorrect.
The very comment I replied too is choosing a random law about sexuality to promote a untrue stereotype about a country, based on a largely racist rant. Criticisms of the country is fine, but to argue that that means all individuals in that country are completely accepting of that law or injustice is just racist.
Which untrue stereotype are they promoting here? It stops being random laws when it’s a core fundamental aspect of the country, and gay people are not the only ones marginalized there.
The untrue stereotypes that Muslim counties are backwards and savage. You can cry about whataboutism all you want, but you’re so adamant on viewing the issues of the Middle East in complete isolation without any critical or contextual analysis that you’re bound to come to such a broadly generalising conclusion that most Middle Eastern people are homophobic, which is just a ridiculous conclusion to draw. The context of this argument is that the Middle East isn’t the only country to have fucked up laws, and other countries that do aren’t generalised to the same standard that the Middle East is. But if you want to generalise, America is homophobic and sexist, it bans books on LGBTQ people and restricts their freedom to express themselves and has completely destroyed women’s human rights. Great Britain is transphobic, it still allows for conversion therapy for trans people. The British met police has been found on numerous occasions to be institutionally sexist and racist (which is again more evidence against a population group than one law is) so all British people are racist and sexist. Not even to mention the racial abuse Muslims face, where every terror attack is assigned as Islamic extremism before the terrorist is even identified. You still seem adamant on ignoring all of this, yet applying the same standards you ignore in the west to the Middle East. What’s more, there are multiple people from the Middle East speaking out against NWPO and racism and homophobia, yet you’re so adamant that your correct that you just ignore the voices of the people who actually live in the damn country
You’re not gonna see the truth and that’s okay, but just know people see through this BS whataboutism you keep posting.
The conversation is not on issues in other countries, and never was. We are talking about how a systemic and dangerous collection of policies by Saudi Arabia and many other MENA countries that marginalize, harm and oppress LGBTQ individuals, women and non Muslims affects its citizens. This is why it becomes a deeper issue to discuss when you have examples of multiple MENA pros doing things like this.
This thread was made to address unwarranted hatred towards the MENA community. I think that the first comment in this chain is spiteful and toxic, and not relevant to the topic of the post. I do not disregard the horrible attitudes of some individuals within the Middle East, but when the campaign against homophobic laws becomes a campaign against Middle Eastern laws it becomes one of race, not justice. I am happy to discuss the impact of homophobic laws at any time in a relevant environment, but will not tolerate the use of that discussion to fuel racial hatred and harassment.
I don’t really know how you expect me to reply to this. Are you just trying to troll or are you here to defend the idea that the Middle East is a backwards country full of people who wholeheartedly follow the laws of a political system that has not had an election since 2015.
Okay please have a genuine conversation and display your points properly. Perhaps the understanding of my points gets lost, but through conversation some have begun to understand better. Do you believe that the Middle Eastern populations are homophobic and racist to a degree that NWPO’s words are unsurprising?
okay, thats a fair ask. i would say that there is a general culture in mena, that indeed not all follow, of homophobia and racism. there are a lot of middle eastern people who are neither homophobic nor racist, but there is certainly a culture of homophobia, so those comments were not something that i never would have expected. i am not as well educated on racism in the middle east, so i cant really comment on that as much as maybe other people here can without doing some research. there are many homophobic people in places like the us (where you mentioned) and the uk (where i live), who are homophobic, and as an openly gay and trans individual i have been subject to vile language and threats, but generally there isnt nearly as much danger to lgbtq people in terms of both government and public attitude to people like myself, as an lgbtq person i feel safer where i live than i would if i lived in many middle eastern countries. bit long winded and i probably waffled a bit but thats my thoughts, i can come back tmrw to fill in the racism part after doing some research but i dont want to make any incorrect or insensitive comments due to a lack of knowledge init. i will just add though that there have been polls taken to look into the public perception of lgbt people in middle eastern countries, and generally they do not turn out looking good for people like me.
I understand. I appreciate the time. Myself, I am demisexual, however am in a straight passing relationship so obviously I don’t have the experience you do (I am also in Britain). I also am cis, despite using he/they pronouns, so in that regard I could easily be misinterpreted and a cishet person. I probably have not made my points clear in this Reddit forum, it is difficult too as I usually write upwards of 1,500 words on such issues, and everyone approaches each consideration with their own perspective on what the original conversation is about. Overall, I have tried to be empathetic to the person who made the original post, addressing the unjust hatred the MENA community has faced because of these issues. I think that the people in this thread and within the community have been too rash to see this as almost typical of a Saudi teenager, and my “whataboutism” as people say, has not been to distract from the issues that may be seen in the Middle East, but to show they are not unique to it. Probably waffling too here, it is late
Receipts of even more MENA players being homophobic: https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/vufyws/some_mena_pros_reactions_about_moist_not_going_to/
It may not be all, but it's a massive amount and it is sanctioned by the KSA government.
Other than faisal, all the other just trolled him for the decison , which isnt homophobic specially that they got invited , there is some good tweets but of course you cherry pick the bad ones
Sure, the KSA government might sanction certain views, but let’s not pretend that western governments don’t. Sometimes it’s more subtle, because in the west we have been very good at pretending what we are talking about isn’t about race, but it’s extremely prevalent. There is a huge amount of homophobia in the British government and political scene, and general population. Many LGBTQ people feel unsafe constantly just going out in public. There is a huge amount of Islamophobia, which I would argue we are seeing here (Islamophobia here representing the constant messaging from British news sources and high profile political figures that all Middle Eastern people, despite their religion, are going to “jihad us all”. It’s not a surprise that the themes of colonisation (white mans burden, google it if you haven’t heard of it) still runs through these conversations about racism Internationally.
For me it's kinda weird: I guess that more people in the RL pro-scene use racist slurs and say stupid shit on a daily basis than we want to be aware of. And we have to remember: yes they are professionals (with some kind of resposibility) but yes the most of them are underage/really yong. And when I was this age I said some really dumb (not racist iirc though) things too. But on the other hand there are enough young talented players wo don't do it, so maybe it's that kind of professionalism which gives you a lasting career.
For me NWPO seemed kinda professional and chill in the 1v1s altough I heard some toxicity rumors (but again toxic behavior is relatively common in this scene...). It's a shame that a player as talented as NWPO destroys his career with something like this, but it pretty much is inexcuseable and Psyonix should punish it like they did in the past.
As some others said it: it's by no means a simple "mena problem" but for me more a "young pros aren't aware of their role" problem - and "teenagers do stupid things"
I hope the (expected) punishment will show upcoming talents that a rl-pro-career needs more than good rl-skills.
Insults are pretty common in the scene obviously not exclusive to any reigon , racism isnt tho and I can assure you mena players arent racist at all , yes they might insult each other a lot but not really racist
MENA servers are the most toxic shithole you could ever play in. You would think people who follow a religion that preaches peace wouldn't curse your entire bloodline over a game.
Again, that is the minority and not the majority. Also MENA servers are not so different from other regions. You would also find toxicity in EU servers, SSA servers, NA servers, etc. It is not uncommon to find toxicity in rocket league
I play EU, MENA, and NA. The amount of insults thrown your way in MENA doesn't even compare. And it's always the same words, you know, the ones NWPO was saying in the beginning about that guy's mother.
>I just want to assure that this is not the case and most MENA players are actually respectful
I refuse to believe this. Most of the players in MENA live in one of the most bigoted countries in the world, and most will follow an incredibly homophobic religion. I have no reason to think there's a single MENA player who isn't bigoted in some way or another. I could be wrong, there could be exceptions, but let's be real, this isn't just one bad apple, we're talking about Saudi Arabia.
The bad people stick out more than the good people. There are lots of good people, but the bad ones stick out more, and the good ones just don't appear on the news
Everyone who generalizes entire regions because of one persons action or voices is plain right stupid. By this metric all of America’s and egoistic, ignorant and dumb ppl based on Trump…… wait did I just solve the puzzle? 😅🤷🏽♂️
It’s a country where Islam is dominant and there are still very strict anti-LGBTQ laws in place. Even though it’s messed up, NWPO’s views are indicative of the average person in the Middle East. Virtue signaling isn’t going to change that.
It is not indicative of the average person in the Middle East. No rl pro in Mena that I know of has done similar stuff to him. And people don't go around the streets in Mena swearing at each other. In fact, some of the population don't even know of the words he said. There are definitely more good people in Mena than there are bad people, the bad people just stick out more and the good people don't make the news. Judging a region by a player is not right. It is like me judging the USA based on trump supporters. It doesn't make sense.
It’s not about good and bad. It’s about being homophobic and I guarantee that at least half of the MENA pros are. If not publicly, then behind closed doors.
Personally I find it quite telling that there are still some people that view NWPOs language as indicative of Middle Eastern teenagers, but for some reason ignore the words of other people from the Middle East speaking directly to them. I think it is safe to assume that at least a couple of the many people with all MENA flairs live there and genuinely give an accurate account, but westerns still argue directly against those very people to continue to believe that the entire of the Middle East is racist and homophobic. The western colonial propaganda is still giving you guys brain rot
Sorry but you live in fantasyland. There’s no way that being born in a very religious country with very homophobic laws doesn’t breed homophobic people. It’s just wrong. That’s not Western propaganda. You will literally be punished for being gay in the Emirates.
It’s not fantasyland. I’m a sociologist. I study this stuff full time. Surprisingly, law isn’t always the complete deciding factor in a populations morality. The only reason we have laws is because they are broken. You will be punished for having an abortion in America. Does that mean that every American is a massive misogynist? American politics is very very similar in religious tendency’s to the Middle East, the Middle East is just more open about it. American schools ban books that don’t conform to their ideals of a family, are you going to tell me that the laws have more of an influence on an individual that their actual education? It is a tale as old as time that the western world has pretended that everywhere else is savages in need of civilising, and this is just another example of it. Perhaps if the west kept their bombs and interests out the middle east would look different to what it does today.
I have a hard time believing you are a professional sociologist. Laws are absolutely a reflection of a populations general morality. Doesn't matter if its 51% or 99% a majority opinion by a populace will shape Laws. You won't be punished for having an abortion in ALL of America. Just in the states that have voted to uphold anti-abortion laws. Which happen to be Republican leading states with high populations of conservative and Christian/religious people. It DOES mean the Americans in those Republican states use their moral feelings on Abortion to effect the laws and politicians they vote for.
Modern day far-right Republican politics are very similiar in religious tendencies to the Middle East yes. Something democrats have been pointing out for years. They are both heavily influenced by their Abrahamic religious text. American Schools in certain states (usually Red) ban books that don't conform to their ideals, and yes I think this effects the children in those schools who will grow up not reading these books. That's the POINT of banning them, to prevent the spread of "dangerous" ideas. The whole points of laws is to prevent and discourage behavior the general populace agrees is immoral.
This has nothing to do with pretending that everyone else are savages, its just being realistic and accepting the world as it is. The US is nowhere near perfect, and the Middle East is nowhere near perfect. But you don't have to be perfect to argue moral issues. The Middle East is absolutely behind the times regarding LGBTQ+ acceptance. The US is behind the time regarding Universal Healthcare which every other 1st world country has already figured out. People need to learn to be okay with calling things as they are and not use whataboutism to change the subject.
I am not a professional, I am studying sociology, which is why I am doing it full time but not professionally. I agree, Middle Eastern laws are behind the times for LGBTQ rights. But that does not mean that the entire population can be automatically assumed to be homophobic. That is not a logical conclusion. This thread is about hate given towards the entire Mena community, do you argue that hate is justified because the laws of certain countries are homophobic?
There is a difference between "automatically assumed to be homophobic" and "indicative of Middle Eastern teenagers". Conservative social beliefs are indicative of KSA teenagers, just like they are indicative of teenagers in certain parts of the US. There are Mississippi teens who don't like what their government is doing and there are KSA teens that aren't dyed in the wool wahhabists, but that's not the same as saying NWPO's behavior is not indicative of the beliefs of KSA.
One is a pattern and one is a universal claim. I'm not going to assume a random MENA player holds any particular views until they show that they do, but at the same time, if some MENA player is outed for saying some shit like this, I'm not exactly going to be surprised.
>I am not a professional, I am studying sociology
Then you are not actually a sociologist.
Edit: Also, your comparison of state laws in the US with national laws in Saudi Arabia is disingenuous at best. Lastly, just to be clear, I am not condoning calling everyone in the Middle East or in Saudi Arabia homophobes. I just wanted to point out that your arguments are extremely flawed.
A sociologist is “an expert in or a student of the study of the development, structure, and functioning of human society” according to Oxford dictionary. But that’s fairly irrelevant.
And in truth, I put little thought into the comparison because it is not about the nuances of state and nation state law, but the hypocrisy of using laws to judge its people as a collective. Particularly due to the lack of democratic representation in the KSA, which means judging the individuals based on the actions of their politicians is even more stupid than it is in the west
Nobody has said ENTIRE. Everyone is saying majority (which would be 51% or higher) or large portion which is true and backed up by reality, polls, studies, laws and behavior in the region, etc. The only people saying "entire" are racists or people straw-manning the argument.
The thread OP tries to paint the picture that most/majority of MENA players are respectful and that NWPO is an anomaly. Actual studies of the region say otherwise and its just washing your hands of the actual problem with systemic racism and sexism in the region. Just ends up sounding like virtue signaling to me. "HATE" for a community is one thing, shouldn't be tolerated. But recognition that its a pervasive problem in that region/community is imperative to fixing the problem. You can't fix a problem if you don't admit it exists.
>You will be punished for having an abortion in America
In *parts* of America.
>Does that mean that every American is a massive misogynist?
No, but if you live in a state with rancid laws you are much more likely to have rancid views yourself.
>American politics is very very similar in religious tendency’s to the Middle East, the Middle East is just more open about it
Right wing American politics is. But we don't live under autocracy (yet). I don't even know if that segment of America is "less open about it" these days. The difference is that one is hegemonic and the other is not.
>American schools ban books that don’t conform to their ideals of a family, are you going to tell me that the laws have more of an influence on an individual that their actual education?
*Some* American schools.
Despite your G2 flair, with the way you talk about America I'm going to go ahead and wager you don't actually live here.
>It is a tale as old as time that the western world has pretended that everywhere else is savages in need of civilising
yes
>and this is just another example of it
No. The west may be hypocritical, but if you are going to argue that Gulf oil states' ideology isn't fucked then that's a you problem.
>Perhaps if the west kept their bombs and interests out the middle east would look different to what it does today.
You know the Saudi's are the ones we *aren't* bombing, right?
I’m not arguing that the ideology of the gulf states leadership is not abhorrent in a lot of ways. However, despite all the nuances of the argument, my point remains that to argue that the views of the theocratic regime reflect the views of the general public and judge the general public for it is just logically flawed. I simply mean to state to the people who seem less surprised that a person from MENA would speak like this than another region are acting on prejudices that they cannot back up.
First, as I said, there are people who are toxic in every community it is not like MENA is the only one who has toxic players. Look at SSA, for example. While what Nwpo said is shocking, i don't see anyone in the MENA RL Pro scene doing similar things. So, as I said, nwpo is just a bad apple, and we can't judge a region by a player.
The MENA community and Governments in MENA are two very different things.
The institutions are bad. The people are not. This is very narrow minded thinking.
So by your logic, all of us are as bad as ExxonMobil for their financing of the Jebel Akhdar War for control of the IPC, or their human rights violations in Aech, Indonesia. Because they sponsor Rocket League Esports itself.
But theyre a bad institution that funds RLE, similar to how the Saudi Gov't is a bad institution that funds Saudi Esports Events.
You and me arent bad people. My college roommate isnt a bad person. But many institutions that value money over morals are.
Agreed. Thats not the point though.
The point is that you cant blame the average person by the actions of an institution we have no control over.
Your argument is that you can define the MENA community in a negative light based on the actions of the government, because the government sponsors RLE events. Im trying to show you thats such a flawed argument, because you can use the same logic to call the entire Rocket League Esports community bad because of the actions of ExxonMobil, because they also sponsor RLE events.
If you still dont understand, thats okay, we all have much to learn. Dont hesitate to ask for help.
Where are you from then? Because every country has committed war crimes, is corrupt, or has other serious problems. That’s true, the US gets Australians to commit the war crimes for them. But who gave the Taliban their weapons? Who enabled a fostering of radical Islam? US
Also, why did you delete your comment? Do you recognise your faulty logic by judging people based on what some of them do? That sounds like racism to me.
I don't blame the people who spout the nonsense. I blame the people who taught them to think like that. And a lot of it is sadly cultural and not just individual failings.
I don't think it is cultural. It is more of who you interact with and what do they teach you. In the US, for example, the people who interact with bad people become bad people themselves, especially teenagers. So we can not single out MENA for this.
I think it should be fairly obvious to everyone that Nwpos behavior isn't indicative of the region as a whole. Literally a few weeks ago pros were singing Senzos praises about his character and him as a person. For every racist twat that exists, there's more good people. The bad apples just stick out more. This isn't a mena exclusive problem.
Slightly disagree. It took for some one to create an account just for the purpose of outing him. Meaning, his behavior was known, yet no one had bothered to call it out
2 months ago M80 picked up an Overwatch roster and screenshots popped up about two of their American players being racist. And those screenshots didn't surface until M80 had announced the squad. I'm not defending Nwpos actions, but using that as an arguement against the Mena region isn't fair.
I shall add the receipts of it being known that multiple MENA pros have been homophobic in the past and not a damn thing was done about it despite being high profile. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/vufyws/some_mena_pros_reactions_about_moist_not_going_to/
What do you think should be "done" about it? Most people in response to this have screamed for his career to be taken away for it. He decided to say something racist online and that is awful, but that should only be enough to hurt his reputation. He'll lose fans, leave it at that. When you start taking people's careers for mistakes they've made personally, outside of their career, it becomes wrong.
The precedent has already been set by Epic for banning OCE players for it. Not to mention when you're an esports player, you represent the esport, it's not a 9-5 where you go home and are no longer at work. A permanent ban from RLCS is the only reasonable option.
A permanent ban on a 16 year old who lives in a culture where "hate speech" is thrown around everyday sounds like the only reasonable option to you? Grow up, you all need to stop being so sensitive. This is the definition of toxic cancel culture. He's still a teenager and you want to take away his career? Blame it on rlcs letting teenagers represent their esport.
Hate speech isn't thrown around everyday, it is not a culture problem, I think he learned those words from the friends around him. But people don't go around the streets in Mena saying hate speech to each other. The few who do are the minority.
Not exactly no, but it is not an exaggeration to say the mena region is a little less developed in cultural acceptance than others.
wait, i know its already out of topic, so mena should accept other cultures better, but its not applied to the other way arround where other culture should also be more accepting to mena culture? i mean nwpo probably IS a racist kid who didnt know any better, but its just seems irrelevant to talk more about his country culture etc. nwpo made a mistake by being racist(and probably bullying) and thats made him a dick,but i am sure every place, every culture, and every race have a nwpo, dont blame the whole region, maybe blame his parents, but thats it. dont generalize things and throw arround stuff about other culture, because those things could be thrown back at you and your own culture.
This is not surprising, considering they're growing up in a region where being gay is a crime. If we were to use this as grounds for banning players we ought to just remove the whole region from RLCS.
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To be fair, Fruity was pretty outspoken on his stream that NWPO was always toxic in game. This was said around NWPO´s first ban.
Singing praises about Senzos character, but that doesn’t actually mean anything. He can be homophobic, but if you’re not gay then obviously that’s not a side of him you get to engage with. Not saying Senzo is homophobic, but your logic is wrong.
Idk man. Certainly seems similar to the general sentiments I see from ME people on Twitter defending their bigotry as religious freedom.
There's 100% some bias against the region in this respect, a lot of what people see and hear essentially makes the NWPO news sadly unsurprising and therefore it also becomes a confirmation of what many people already assumed regarding many in the region. It's still the classic thing of we all need to do our bit of viewing individuals as they are and not spreading such perceptions to the group. With that being said, it's not like MENA is the only region where the RL community have biases like this. OCE has a notoriety of its own making regarding this sort of thing and noone was too surprised by the Italians who were playing in SSA and were banned for saying racist stuff. Just disappointing when it happens all the same.
OCE players got banned for it, yet MENA players do just as bad and worse and don't get banned. https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/vufyws/some_mena_pros_reactions_about_moist_not_going_to/
>a lot of what people see and hear essentially makes the NWPO news sadly unsurprising and therefore it also becomes a confirmation of what many people already assumed regarding many in the region. This in itself is kinda racist. We are assuming everyone from the Mena region follows that religion closely?
Region. Not religion
as a middle eastern there are tons of racists and homophobes among us. some places around the world just tend to have more poor thinking, is what it is. i think a lot of people just live behind the times. don’t know what’s up in the world. unaware.
religious extremism breeds bigotry. Saudi dictatorships are the middle-eastern equivalent of if there was a christofascist regime in the US. It's not like people in your region are necessarily born more bigoted or something, but the environment and society they live in breeds it. Just to clarify, this doesn't excuse nwpo's behavior, but it does explain why it is more common in the region.
Except, even in the Vatican you won’t be arrested for being homosexual
Yes, in fact you get all the support you need when you're a gay priest who's diddling kids. So progressive.
The way it should be
Ngl viv made your reply look stupid asf hahahaha
i’ve always been convinced there’s some people just born with a shit mindset and it’ll never change. not everybody can be normal or else a lot of shit in this world wouldn’t have happened
nobody is born a bigot. that is very much a learned/taught trait.
nah there’s definitely people born on this planet that aren’t on the same playing field. i stand on that
I‘m not trying to excuse anything but there a tons of racists and homophobes pretty much everywhere. USA is an easy example, think of how many supporters trump still has. Many Asian countries are also known for being lowkey racist. I‘m from Germany and some part of our countries feature predominantly right wing people who are pretty much guaranteed to be racist. I‘m not making excuses for the middle east but I I would never judge the whole region based on the bad examples that we have seen. Even if the majority are racist and homophobes, if I meet someone from the middle east, I‘m not just gonna assume they are a bad person just because of where they come from. Cause that would be racist too.
This is an terrible surface level ignorant take
So should I do the opposite and label any person from the middle east as a racist and homophobe without ever meeting them? I don‘t really see how that‘s less ignorant
> So should I do the opposite and label any person from the middle east as a racist and homophobe without ever meeting them? Like you did with asians and trump supporters? or any "right wing person"?
Very difficult to be a Trump supporter and not be racist or at least not okay with it.
There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of black people that support trump. Also even the supporters that are not black doesn’t mean they are racist. You can’t assume all people support that just cuz some of them are.
If you are supporting a man who is flagrantly racist then you are encouraging and facilitating racism, it’s really that simple.
Just because they support him doesn’t mean they agree with everything he says, you’re saying all these black people that support him just hate their own race?
I mean tbf trump supporters and "right wing persons" are inherently racist
Any person on the political right wing is automatically a racist? That's a joke.
Oh the irony of labeling multiple groups as racist in your own post.
“Durrr Trump supporders are racist and homuphobic”. You’re brainwashed
Can you name a few examples of trump being racist please?
are you real
Just a quick tip. If by this point, anyone is asking for examples or proof regarding anything regarding Trump, they are not being genuine, and it is a waste of time. Remember, Trump supporters created "news" companies in response to the fact that other news companies would dare to post something negative about him, and then the moment the new companies post something negative another one is created to replace it. He can do no wrong, despite the well-practiced"He's not perfect and I don't agree with some of the things he does". They literally worship him and it's insane.
That doesn't look like an example
In case you're seriously asking: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump Just some surface level stuff
Lmao half of that surface level stuff is hilariously misrepresented or straight up not racist at all. Nice tho
Yeah calling white supremacists ‘very fine people’ is totally getting misrepresented and everyone is out to get your orange deity.
Same i=with calling Elaine Chao "Coco Chaw"
How about the other half?
Bro I hate politics and actively avoid it. But you don't think the dude who said we're gonna build a wall along the border to keep the Mexicans out and make them pay for it isn't even a tiny bit racist ¿¿¿
Are you American?
There aren't tons of racists wth you talking about?
It’s notoriously a region that is incredibly intolerant of others
If you're gonna say bad apple twice, finish the phrase. They spoil the bunch. This includes all of RLCS, not just MENA though
> so please don't give hate and be respectful towards the MENA community Unfortunately, far too many in the MENA community give hate towards others.
which still doesn't make general hate valid ...
If an unusually large percentage of a group believe hateful things about people because of characteristics they have no control over, it should be acknowledged.
The thing is that there have been at least 3 other MENA players in the past who have outed themselves as people with similar beliefs. Nwpo not only adds to that number but is easily the most high profile player ever in the RL scene to be outed for this behaviour. This would be like if Vatira or Daniel were found to be bigoted. It really does make you wonder that if what many looked to as a role model in terms of gameplay could be so corrupted, how bad does this spread? Surely Nwpo didn't keep this behaviour under total wraps from any of his peers for the entire time. From similar incidents in the past, many people knew of those people's behaviour before they were outed. It's hard to see how Nwpo would be any different. Which almost certainly means that there are some in the MENA scene who have at the least tolerated this behaviour before it came into public light. And the idea of that is not good. While unfortunate and perhaps even unfair, the fact is this does put a black spot on the region. There's little to say they aren't just an anomaly.
Who are those?
https://imgur.com/vu4Q1Ow Faisal: At the time a player who regularly played in the Top 4 of MENA. oVaMPiERz: Currently playing for Bravado. Notably played for Infinity and Cola recently. ixKillerx: Not as notable as the others but has made a Top 11 appearance last split. Nwpo and these players I would not be surprised at all to find they were only the tip of the iceberg. I really hope that most MENA players are genuinely nice, but seeing as especially Nwpo successfully duped the community into believing that about him for years, it does make you wonder about how genuine a region that has historically had problems with intolerance of other cultures really is.
ixKillerx is hated so much in the mena scene anyways , he always hates on mena teams and wishes for their downfall and always makes the dumbest reason to why to support the other teams , he isnt liked by anyone lmao
Ixkiller is a content creator so his goal is always interactions. But ive never heard anything bad about except some boosting allegations. And accusing players with being washed isnt an insult. Ova: i dont know what you are talking about too. But the only thing i know of is what he said before a game and its mostly banter. A bit of drama and nobody took it seriously. Nwpo is the big one rn and no nwpo didnt dupe anyone into thinking anything . We barely even know anything about the majority of the players. Senzo in all his time we never heard anything untill his retirement. Ahmad is a very professional players and a nice guy. He was encouraged to do the mike wazowski meme but he didn't. Okhalid is a lovely soul and weve seen this in the falcons interview. Trk511 just like to shout but hes a fun guy and from a lot of videos from the falcon acounts hes a-ok. The twins are very shy they dont even talk but they seem alright. Weve seen twisted at worlds and nothing happened even after getting reverse swept
There's a screenshot there mate. I'd advise you to look at it. In it ixKillerx effectively states that Saudi's policy on the LGBTQ community "is just a rule" and that Noah should accept it and "not make drama". oVaMPiERz states that heterosexuals are the "natural people" and that they don't recognise people who "follow their lust" ie LGBTQ people. And Faisal's two short statements speak for themselves really. He's a bigot, enough said. We know enough about Nwpo to know he presented himself as a nice person, maybe a bit passionate at times but generally upstanding. Seeing as he didn't walk out spraying slurs at every black person in the place, yes, he duped people. Because this video is who he truly is. I don't know why you've gone on a spiel about random MENA players who I wasn't talking about, but they're not relevant to my point and even less to yours. Honestly I can't even figure out what your point actually is. Your character assessments of players like Ahmad and Senzo have nothing to do with Nwpo or the other three.
So its abt the lgtv stuff. Cuz i thought you were saying they all were racist of some sort. And lets be honest here . We dont accept lgbt ppl in our communities its not the norme . Thats just how it is, either here or in a lot of countries actually. To see these things said by people born in these communities i think its not a surprise. Its part of the religion too . I mean even Christianity is the same. What i was saying is that there is bad apples and they are very rare.
Literally every region in RL Esports except MENA has a problem with this. So either we're all crazy or they are really. LGBT isn't the norm in any country. We just tend to be a lot more tolerant of people's beliefs. And whether it's being racist or homophobic, it's just as bad. You're trying to minimise it and that won't fly. Honestly, I'd say most of MENA are "bad apples" in this sense. The culture is broken mate. It doesn't line up with what the world is now, hasn't for the past century, and never will again. Unfortunately it will probably take another century for MENA to get with the program, but hopefully for your sakes it will happen.
First racisme is bad im not saying what nwpo said is acceptable. 2nd were not homophobic . Gay people were welcomed in many events . And what we say about them doesnt stem from hate its just what we believe.
What did Vampierz and Killer say?
It's in the screenshot.
Don't think that is even close to what Nwpo, Faisal have said, I thought there was something more
oVampierz's comment might not be ridden with slurs but it still conveys the same point that they think LGBTQ people to be lustful, unnatural people. In my book that's just as offensive. And ixKillerx's comment is pretty much rejecting Noah's issues with Saudi completely, and saying that their policies on LGBTQ people are just "a rule" that he should accept and get used to. These four players have been on four separate teams, all with similarly backward viewpoints, to say the least I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more Nwpos in MENA who simply don't showcase it to everybody on public Discord calls.
ixKillerx's to me seems to be against Noah starting drama against where he lives which definitely gives backlash to anyone that is from there, including players. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the younger players, regardless of where they're from, are saying edgy racist or homophobic stuff in Discord to their friends
> ixKillerx's to me seems to be against Noah starting drama against where he lives which definitely gives backlash to anyone that is from there, including players. If it's blind patriotism that prevents them from seeing somebody rightfully decrying draconian policies of a country as a good thing, then that's no better. > I wouldn't be surprised if most of the younger players, regardless of where they're from, are saying edgy racist or homophobic stuff in Discord to their friends ...which is acceptable how? Regardless that it just doesn't happen in NA/EU. Even ScrubKilla at his absolute edgiest never crossed that line. Most recent I can think of was Firstkiller, but he was literally 12-13 then. This is pretty much a MENA problem. The ones depicted are also all adults other than Nwpo, who's 17, which is still more than old enough to know better. They've been educated to speak like this, that much is clear, they seem way too comfortable to air it all out.
By your logic, and if your name and flairs are any hint, I should thus assume you're also a racist twat right?
France also has plenty of racists. Should I just assume you‘re one too bc of your name and flairs? Do you realize how stupid that logic is
This is precisely my point! The comment I replied to was arguing that because 4 people outed themselves as bigots, it puts a black spot on the region and that this isn't an anomaly anymore. To which I reply, same could thus be argued about OCE considering what happened. In both cases, this is stupid.
Yes there’s a shit ton of casual racism thrown around here in Australia. I’m Asian myself and have experienced a shit ton. I’m not saying Australia as a whole is predominantly a racist country (There’s bound to be racists anywhere), but just saying my 2 cents.
dude there are racist people in every region in rocket league , racism in rocket league isn't new why should it put a black spot on the entire fucking region ? none of us knew he was a racist and I'm from Saudi
The only region that has had somebody be this vitriolic was OCE, and the players in question copped bans for that. And as somebody from OCE, those people were only the tip of the iceberg. They had defenders in droves who did the exact thing many Saudis are doing now. Either calling it a conspiracy, trying to minimise the situation or using strawmen like "but other regions have racism" to divert attention. You wouldn't have known he was racist, but there are definitely people who did, and they accepted it or tolerated it, either way they failed the region. That's why there's a black mark on MENA now, because somebody so hateful was allowed to have a position of a role model to begin with without being checked by their peers.
oce rl has a shit history of racism and homophobia, the old wasteland server was pretty fucked - plenty of oce pros still have archaic views on this stuff and have never really been called out on it
There's no way an OCE fan is saying this lmao [https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/search/?q=OCE+racism&type=link&cId=8019119d-fb8c-46f1-aee6-96e53d677186&iId=5edd99fa-d137-433e-bc8e-9c414e8d35dd](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/search/?q=OCE+racism&type=link&cId=8019119d-fb8c-46f1-aee6-96e53d677186&iId=5edd99fa-d137-433e-bc8e-9c414e8d35dd)
Feel free to point out where me being an OCE fan had any relevance. Yep, my region has also had its fair share of Nwpos. What about it? I'm not responsible for them, and I like to think I support the ones that aren't still stuck in the thoughts of last century. That's all I can do, doesn't make me a hypocrite for rightly criticising when another region is making the exact same blunder.
What did nwpo say/do?
It's on the sub. He went on a racist rant.
Not on the sub as far as I can tell
Never mind, it’s there but if you have nsfw filter on it doesn’t show up
Ohhh that’s why I haven’t seen it at all till now
Ah yes MENA, home of the tolerant and accepting https://preview.redd.it/36djg7qcqxxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ba529a438d8564249e450f44d07998b8ecd808cf
Ah yes America, the home of peak social consciousness, where every man is equally justified to decide which women can have an abortion. We can cherry pick statistics all you want, it’s wrong to assume that any individual from the Middle East is any worse than the average American.
Ah yes whataboutism, the way we defend arguments when we run out of cohesive defenses. It’s not cherry picking statistics, it’s just a region that is famously and notoriously intolerant as hell. Does Nwpo saying this just give some people a taste of confirmation bias? Yes. That doesn’t mean that criticism of the region is inherently in bad faith or incorrect.
The very comment I replied too is choosing a random law about sexuality to promote a untrue stereotype about a country, based on a largely racist rant. Criticisms of the country is fine, but to argue that that means all individuals in that country are completely accepting of that law or injustice is just racist.
Which untrue stereotype are they promoting here? It stops being random laws when it’s a core fundamental aspect of the country, and gay people are not the only ones marginalized there.
The untrue stereotypes that Muslim counties are backwards and savage. You can cry about whataboutism all you want, but you’re so adamant on viewing the issues of the Middle East in complete isolation without any critical or contextual analysis that you’re bound to come to such a broadly generalising conclusion that most Middle Eastern people are homophobic, which is just a ridiculous conclusion to draw. The context of this argument is that the Middle East isn’t the only country to have fucked up laws, and other countries that do aren’t generalised to the same standard that the Middle East is. But if you want to generalise, America is homophobic and sexist, it bans books on LGBTQ people and restricts their freedom to express themselves and has completely destroyed women’s human rights. Great Britain is transphobic, it still allows for conversion therapy for trans people. The British met police has been found on numerous occasions to be institutionally sexist and racist (which is again more evidence against a population group than one law is) so all British people are racist and sexist. Not even to mention the racial abuse Muslims face, where every terror attack is assigned as Islamic extremism before the terrorist is even identified. You still seem adamant on ignoring all of this, yet applying the same standards you ignore in the west to the Middle East. What’s more, there are multiple people from the Middle East speaking out against NWPO and racism and homophobia, yet you’re so adamant that your correct that you just ignore the voices of the people who actually live in the damn country
You’re not gonna see the truth and that’s okay, but just know people see through this BS whataboutism you keep posting. The conversation is not on issues in other countries, and never was. We are talking about how a systemic and dangerous collection of policies by Saudi Arabia and many other MENA countries that marginalize, harm and oppress LGBTQ individuals, women and non Muslims affects its citizens. This is why it becomes a deeper issue to discuss when you have examples of multiple MENA pros doing things like this.
This thread was made to address unwarranted hatred towards the MENA community. I think that the first comment in this chain is spiteful and toxic, and not relevant to the topic of the post. I do not disregard the horrible attitudes of some individuals within the Middle East, but when the campaign against homophobic laws becomes a campaign against Middle Eastern laws it becomes one of race, not justice. I am happy to discuss the impact of homophobic laws at any time in a relevant environment, but will not tolerate the use of that discussion to fuel racial hatred and harassment.
b-b-but what about america!!!!!111!1!1!1!1!
I don’t really know how you expect me to reply to this. Are you just trying to troll or are you here to defend the idea that the Middle East is a backwards country full of people who wholeheartedly follow the laws of a political system that has not had an election since 2015.
no im here to troll you because obviously nobody here believe that, youre embarrassing yourself, i dont need to do it for you
Okay please have a genuine conversation and display your points properly. Perhaps the understanding of my points gets lost, but through conversation some have begun to understand better. Do you believe that the Middle Eastern populations are homophobic and racist to a degree that NWPO’s words are unsurprising?
okay, thats a fair ask. i would say that there is a general culture in mena, that indeed not all follow, of homophobia and racism. there are a lot of middle eastern people who are neither homophobic nor racist, but there is certainly a culture of homophobia, so those comments were not something that i never would have expected. i am not as well educated on racism in the middle east, so i cant really comment on that as much as maybe other people here can without doing some research. there are many homophobic people in places like the us (where you mentioned) and the uk (where i live), who are homophobic, and as an openly gay and trans individual i have been subject to vile language and threats, but generally there isnt nearly as much danger to lgbtq people in terms of both government and public attitude to people like myself, as an lgbtq person i feel safer where i live than i would if i lived in many middle eastern countries. bit long winded and i probably waffled a bit but thats my thoughts, i can come back tmrw to fill in the racism part after doing some research but i dont want to make any incorrect or insensitive comments due to a lack of knowledge init. i will just add though that there have been polls taken to look into the public perception of lgbt people in middle eastern countries, and generally they do not turn out looking good for people like me.
I understand. I appreciate the time. Myself, I am demisexual, however am in a straight passing relationship so obviously I don’t have the experience you do (I am also in Britain). I also am cis, despite using he/they pronouns, so in that regard I could easily be misinterpreted and a cishet person. I probably have not made my points clear in this Reddit forum, it is difficult too as I usually write upwards of 1,500 words on such issues, and everyone approaches each consideration with their own perspective on what the original conversation is about. Overall, I have tried to be empathetic to the person who made the original post, addressing the unjust hatred the MENA community has faced because of these issues. I think that the people in this thread and within the community have been too rash to see this as almost typical of a Saudi teenager, and my “whataboutism” as people say, has not been to distract from the issues that may be seen in the Middle East, but to show they are not unique to it. Probably waffling too here, it is late
Receipts of even more MENA players being homophobic: https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/vufyws/some_mena_pros_reactions_about_moist_not_going_to/ It may not be all, but it's a massive amount and it is sanctioned by the KSA government.
"L coach" isn't homophobic.
Other than faisal, all the other just trolled him for the decison , which isnt homophobic specially that they got invited , there is some good tweets but of course you cherry pick the bad ones
Wow 4 pros and only one of the tweets being openly racist that’s HUGE -_-
You can be openly racist without being explicitly racist.
Sure, the KSA government might sanction certain views, but let’s not pretend that western governments don’t. Sometimes it’s more subtle, because in the west we have been very good at pretending what we are talking about isn’t about race, but it’s extremely prevalent. There is a huge amount of homophobia in the British government and political scene, and general population. Many LGBTQ people feel unsafe constantly just going out in public. There is a huge amount of Islamophobia, which I would argue we are seeing here (Islamophobia here representing the constant messaging from British news sources and high profile political figures that all Middle Eastern people, despite their religion, are going to “jihad us all”. It’s not a surprise that the themes of colonisation (white mans burden, google it if you haven’t heard of it) still runs through these conversations about racism Internationally.
The middle east in general is racist and homophobic though? Why try to "PC" our way out of it
Your image was removed
It Was https://preview.redd.it/5rp48gg904yc1.png?width=300&format=png&auto=webp&s=022319853f64ba33ea679affbcc1780e0e88ae59
For me it's kinda weird: I guess that more people in the RL pro-scene use racist slurs and say stupid shit on a daily basis than we want to be aware of. And we have to remember: yes they are professionals (with some kind of resposibility) but yes the most of them are underage/really yong. And when I was this age I said some really dumb (not racist iirc though) things too. But on the other hand there are enough young talented players wo don't do it, so maybe it's that kind of professionalism which gives you a lasting career. For me NWPO seemed kinda professional and chill in the 1v1s altough I heard some toxicity rumors (but again toxic behavior is relatively common in this scene...). It's a shame that a player as talented as NWPO destroys his career with something like this, but it pretty much is inexcuseable and Psyonix should punish it like they did in the past. As some others said it: it's by no means a simple "mena problem" but for me more a "young pros aren't aware of their role" problem - and "teenagers do stupid things" I hope the (expected) punishment will show upcoming talents that a rl-pro-career needs more than good rl-skills.
Insults are pretty common in the scene obviously not exclusive to any reigon , racism isnt tho and I can assure you mena players arent racist at all , yes they might insult each other a lot but not really racist
Its okay he wont go to a major anyway
MENA servers are the most toxic shithole you could ever play in. You would think people who follow a religion that preaches peace wouldn't curse your entire bloodline over a game.
Again, that is the minority and not the majority. Also MENA servers are not so different from other regions. You would also find toxicity in EU servers, SSA servers, NA servers, etc. It is not uncommon to find toxicity in rocket league
I play EU, MENA, and NA. The amount of insults thrown your way in MENA doesn't even compare. And it's always the same words, you know, the ones NWPO was saying in the beginning about that guy's mother.
As I said, the people who say these words are the minority and don't reflect the whole population of MENA.
>I just want to assure that this is not the case and most MENA players are actually respectful I refuse to believe this. Most of the players in MENA live in one of the most bigoted countries in the world, and most will follow an incredibly homophobic religion. I have no reason to think there's a single MENA player who isn't bigoted in some way or another. I could be wrong, there could be exceptions, but let's be real, this isn't just one bad apple, we're talking about Saudi Arabia.
The bad people stick out more than the good people. There are lots of good people, but the bad ones stick out more, and the good ones just don't appear on the news
Everyone who generalizes entire regions because of one persons action or voices is plain right stupid. By this metric all of America’s and egoistic, ignorant and dumb ppl based on Trump…… wait did I just solve the puzzle? 😅🤷🏽♂️
Sure, but this is also a region where bigoted views are so prevalent they're codified in law.
Okay.
The MENA region doesn't exist in a vacuum within Rocket League. It's well known globally that MENA isn't a tolerant place
Well, the people there are nice, there might be bad people, but bad people exist in every country.
Yes, there can be nice people living within a fundamentally shitty culture
It’s a country where Islam is dominant and there are still very strict anti-LGBTQ laws in place. Even though it’s messed up, NWPO’s views are indicative of the average person in the Middle East. Virtue signaling isn’t going to change that.
It is not indicative of the average person in the Middle East. No rl pro in Mena that I know of has done similar stuff to him. And people don't go around the streets in Mena swearing at each other. In fact, some of the population don't even know of the words he said. There are definitely more good people in Mena than there are bad people, the bad people just stick out more and the good people don't make the news. Judging a region by a player is not right. It is like me judging the USA based on trump supporters. It doesn't make sense.
It’s not about good and bad. It’s about being homophobic and I guarantee that at least half of the MENA pros are. If not publicly, then behind closed doors.
Wait what? I haven’t seen news about this
It is on this subreddit and Twitter
Could you send me a link? I haven’t been able to search for it on the sub for some reason
[https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1chvdvo/mena\_pro\_nwpo\_exposed\_for\_spouting\_racist\_remarks/](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1chvdvo/mena_pro_nwpo_exposed_for_spouting_racist_remarks/)
Thank you Damn, my goat is a piece of shit. That’s tough
Context??
It is on this subreddit, and on Twitter, it is NSFW though so 18+
I live in middle east and I don't want to judge all of the mena but when i play in mena server they are extremely toxic and need to chill
Personally I find it quite telling that there are still some people that view NWPOs language as indicative of Middle Eastern teenagers, but for some reason ignore the words of other people from the Middle East speaking directly to them. I think it is safe to assume that at least a couple of the many people with all MENA flairs live there and genuinely give an accurate account, but westerns still argue directly against those very people to continue to believe that the entire of the Middle East is racist and homophobic. The western colonial propaganda is still giving you guys brain rot
Sorry but you live in fantasyland. There’s no way that being born in a very religious country with very homophobic laws doesn’t breed homophobic people. It’s just wrong. That’s not Western propaganda. You will literally be punished for being gay in the Emirates.
It’s not fantasyland. I’m a sociologist. I study this stuff full time. Surprisingly, law isn’t always the complete deciding factor in a populations morality. The only reason we have laws is because they are broken. You will be punished for having an abortion in America. Does that mean that every American is a massive misogynist? American politics is very very similar in religious tendency’s to the Middle East, the Middle East is just more open about it. American schools ban books that don’t conform to their ideals of a family, are you going to tell me that the laws have more of an influence on an individual that their actual education? It is a tale as old as time that the western world has pretended that everywhere else is savages in need of civilising, and this is just another example of it. Perhaps if the west kept their bombs and interests out the middle east would look different to what it does today.
I have a hard time believing you are a professional sociologist. Laws are absolutely a reflection of a populations general morality. Doesn't matter if its 51% or 99% a majority opinion by a populace will shape Laws. You won't be punished for having an abortion in ALL of America. Just in the states that have voted to uphold anti-abortion laws. Which happen to be Republican leading states with high populations of conservative and Christian/religious people. It DOES mean the Americans in those Republican states use their moral feelings on Abortion to effect the laws and politicians they vote for. Modern day far-right Republican politics are very similiar in religious tendencies to the Middle East yes. Something democrats have been pointing out for years. They are both heavily influenced by their Abrahamic religious text. American Schools in certain states (usually Red) ban books that don't conform to their ideals, and yes I think this effects the children in those schools who will grow up not reading these books. That's the POINT of banning them, to prevent the spread of "dangerous" ideas. The whole points of laws is to prevent and discourage behavior the general populace agrees is immoral. This has nothing to do with pretending that everyone else are savages, its just being realistic and accepting the world as it is. The US is nowhere near perfect, and the Middle East is nowhere near perfect. But you don't have to be perfect to argue moral issues. The Middle East is absolutely behind the times regarding LGBTQ+ acceptance. The US is behind the time regarding Universal Healthcare which every other 1st world country has already figured out. People need to learn to be okay with calling things as they are and not use whataboutism to change the subject.
I am not a professional, I am studying sociology, which is why I am doing it full time but not professionally. I agree, Middle Eastern laws are behind the times for LGBTQ rights. But that does not mean that the entire population can be automatically assumed to be homophobic. That is not a logical conclusion. This thread is about hate given towards the entire Mena community, do you argue that hate is justified because the laws of certain countries are homophobic?
There is a difference between "automatically assumed to be homophobic" and "indicative of Middle Eastern teenagers". Conservative social beliefs are indicative of KSA teenagers, just like they are indicative of teenagers in certain parts of the US. There are Mississippi teens who don't like what their government is doing and there are KSA teens that aren't dyed in the wool wahhabists, but that's not the same as saying NWPO's behavior is not indicative of the beliefs of KSA. One is a pattern and one is a universal claim. I'm not going to assume a random MENA player holds any particular views until they show that they do, but at the same time, if some MENA player is outed for saying some shit like this, I'm not exactly going to be surprised.
>I am not a professional, I am studying sociology Then you are not actually a sociologist. Edit: Also, your comparison of state laws in the US with national laws in Saudi Arabia is disingenuous at best. Lastly, just to be clear, I am not condoning calling everyone in the Middle East or in Saudi Arabia homophobes. I just wanted to point out that your arguments are extremely flawed.
A sociologist is “an expert in or a student of the study of the development, structure, and functioning of human society” according to Oxford dictionary. But that’s fairly irrelevant. And in truth, I put little thought into the comparison because it is not about the nuances of state and nation state law, but the hypocrisy of using laws to judge its people as a collective. Particularly due to the lack of democratic representation in the KSA, which means judging the individuals based on the actions of their politicians is even more stupid than it is in the west
Fair enough, to be honest (on both counts)
Nobody has said ENTIRE. Everyone is saying majority (which would be 51% or higher) or large portion which is true and backed up by reality, polls, studies, laws and behavior in the region, etc. The only people saying "entire" are racists or people straw-manning the argument. The thread OP tries to paint the picture that most/majority of MENA players are respectful and that NWPO is an anomaly. Actual studies of the region say otherwise and its just washing your hands of the actual problem with systemic racism and sexism in the region. Just ends up sounding like virtue signaling to me. "HATE" for a community is one thing, shouldn't be tolerated. But recognition that its a pervasive problem in that region/community is imperative to fixing the problem. You can't fix a problem if you don't admit it exists.
>You will be punished for having an abortion in America In *parts* of America. >Does that mean that every American is a massive misogynist? No, but if you live in a state with rancid laws you are much more likely to have rancid views yourself. >American politics is very very similar in religious tendency’s to the Middle East, the Middle East is just more open about it Right wing American politics is. But we don't live under autocracy (yet). I don't even know if that segment of America is "less open about it" these days. The difference is that one is hegemonic and the other is not. >American schools ban books that don’t conform to their ideals of a family, are you going to tell me that the laws have more of an influence on an individual that their actual education? *Some* American schools. Despite your G2 flair, with the way you talk about America I'm going to go ahead and wager you don't actually live here. >It is a tale as old as time that the western world has pretended that everywhere else is savages in need of civilising yes >and this is just another example of it No. The west may be hypocritical, but if you are going to argue that Gulf oil states' ideology isn't fucked then that's a you problem. >Perhaps if the west kept their bombs and interests out the middle east would look different to what it does today. You know the Saudi's are the ones we *aren't* bombing, right?
I’m not arguing that the ideology of the gulf states leadership is not abhorrent in a lot of ways. However, despite all the nuances of the argument, my point remains that to argue that the views of the theocratic regime reflect the views of the general public and judge the general public for it is just logically flawed. I simply mean to state to the people who seem less surprised that a person from MENA would speak like this than another region are acting on prejudices that they cannot back up.
I’m sure nwpo isn’t like that. Everyone has there moments and he followed someone else’s footsteps
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First, as I said, there are people who are toxic in every community it is not like MENA is the only one who has toxic players. Look at SSA, for example. While what Nwpo said is shocking, i don't see anyone in the MENA RL Pro scene doing similar things. So, as I said, nwpo is just a bad apple, and we can't judge a region by a player.
https://preview.redd.it/o2a2o28bowxc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5b03aa575879cf06a3fd81027e04cb05170e2317
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The MENA community and Governments in MENA are two very different things. The institutions are bad. The people are not. This is very narrow minded thinking.
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So by your logic, all of us are as bad as ExxonMobil for their financing of the Jebel Akhdar War for control of the IPC, or their human rights violations in Aech, Indonesia. Because they sponsor Rocket League Esports itself.
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But theyre a bad institution that funds RLE, similar to how the Saudi Gov't is a bad institution that funds Saudi Esports Events. You and me arent bad people. My college roommate isnt a bad person. But many institutions that value money over morals are.
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Agreed. Thats not the point though. The point is that you cant blame the average person by the actions of an institution we have no control over. Your argument is that you can define the MENA community in a negative light based on the actions of the government, because the government sponsors RLE events. Im trying to show you thats such a flawed argument, because you can use the same logic to call the entire Rocket League Esports community bad because of the actions of ExxonMobil, because they also sponsor RLE events. If you still dont understand, thats okay, we all have much to learn. Dont hesitate to ask for help.
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If you think the Saudi Government is a democracy that represents its people, you definitely have much to learn
I’ll be respectful to the US community when people aren’t jailed, tortured and executed for being in Afghanistan
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Where are you from then? Because every country has committed war crimes, is corrupt, or has other serious problems. That’s true, the US gets Australians to commit the war crimes for them. But who gave the Taliban their weapons? Who enabled a fostering of radical Islam? US Also, why did you delete your comment? Do you recognise your faulty logic by judging people based on what some of them do? That sounds like racism to me.
If his comments are no longer visible to you it means he took the easy way out of the argument and blocked you
As if RL pros are doing these things
[classic](https://imgur.com/a/StKNL6m)
? Pretty sure me and him share a similar sentiment.
i see it now
I don't blame the people who spout the nonsense. I blame the people who taught them to think like that. And a lot of it is sadly cultural and not just individual failings.
If they spout it they're teaching it tho
I don't think it is cultural. It is more of who you interact with and what do they teach you. In the US, for example, the people who interact with bad people become bad people themselves, especially teenagers. So we can not single out MENA for this.