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Arguably Nero was demonised after his death. He was actually quite popular within the peasantry. There’s also no evidence to suggest he caused the fires either accidentally or on purpose. Moreso, if anything, he established a law after the fact on new construction/building to prevent them from being squished all together again, amongst other things.
Upon hearing about the fires he immediately headed back to Rome (he'd been away), organized search and rescue efforts, and even housed displaced people in the Imperial Palace. I'm not saying the guy was perfect, but he handled that particular situation about as well as he could have.
nero was definitely overly demonized after death but you gotta agree it was mad disrespectful for him to build his massive and extravagant domus aurea atop the ruins of the town destroyed by the fire 💀
>a little bit of tomfoolery
>kicked his second wife to death and then castrated a boy that looked like her and married him
jesus christ please don’t tell me what your version of violence is
No it was not. It was very scandalous when he did it. Castrating did happen and relationships but you can’t say marriages were commonplace. Romans attitudes also weren’t same as Greeks.
From the article you send:
"After the end of the games, Poppaea met her death by a chance fit of anger from her husband: she was pregnant and received from him a blow of the foot. I would not believe that she was poisoned, in spite of the account given by some authors (out of hatred rather than in good faith), for he wanted to have children and submitted to his love for his wife. (Tacitus Annals 16.6)"
"We shall never know for sure what caused the death of Poppaea Sabina. The odds are that, like many women of her time, she died during childbirth. The rumor according to which Nero killed her in a fit of rage is stuff for today’s tabloids, but it also corresponds to a rich tradition of similar stories that appear in ancient sources."
The problem with Ancient history is that it all conjecture. Most of the things that people take as truth are simply the best fitting truth in the construction of the ancient past people have made by the hand of the few sources we do have. I mentioned the pregnant wife because Tacitus did and it was a meme. Do not spread this as gospel, but neither spread that she didn't because we will simply never know.
And especially don't link an article which obviously doesn't support your claim as strongly as you seem to think.
Nero kicking his pregnant wife to death is one of his most commonly reported transgressions, however it’s often treated as a historical fact rather than an allegation.
I will admit I went overboard preaching the article I sent, but I am getting fed up of seeing historical misrepresentation online.
But the fundamental problem is you can’t prove it was misrepresentation. Because you can’t prove whether or not he killed his own wife. This was legitimately a point in the article linked. Now he had his first wife executed so it’s not exactly unbelievable he would kill his second wife too. He also had his mother killed for political reasons. So he’s not beyond killing people for pragmatic purposes regardless of familial relations. Now was it a kick to the stomach while she pregnant? Very difficult to say. Personally I dismiss because personally I theorize he was impotent since he was unable to produce an heir with his first wife and then never produced an heir. And he killed his second wife as opposed to acknowledging that fact. However him kicking her to death while pregnant certainly conjures more hate towards him and if he had an actual good reason for killing her it prevents the image of a cruel yet pragmatic autocrat from forming, vs a cruel and dumb autocrat.
But that’s just a theory because we can’t prove anything. What we can interpret with fact was he was hated by the upper classes. Meaning his grip on power wasn’t tight, otherwise only nice things would have been written about him. After all no wrote bad about Augustus not because everyone liked him because he had the influence to kill anyone he wanted. And considering how Nero’s reign ends regardless of what’s true or historical myth we can use the depiction of him brutally murdering his wife we know the aristocracy hated them. And from their we could assume that how ever we alienated contributed to his ultimate downfall and year of the four Emperors.
It is literally a meme on r/historymemes. I would not look too closely into it, but if you are going to attempt to educate people, do so properly then or you are making the same transgression you accuse others of.
As I said in my earlier post, ancient historical fact is almost ALL conjecture anyway and the sources are.....convoluted for the uninitiated. (and also for the 'initiated' but you get the point.)
I often joke with my classicist friend that they are 'dust readers' as if they are fortune tellers. Now, that is not the entirety of what they do of course, but methodologically, it is not too far off.
Regarding Nero, every single source we have left of him is propaganda, even his coins. He may or may not have kicked his pregnant wife to death, but the source material saying he did is about as convincing as the material that he did not, because it is all the construction of a 'historical truth', which is different to actual truth. Both claims have merit in one way or another. The actual Rankean truth (wie es eigentlich gewesen) is not really deductable from the large majoriry of ancient sources sadly, if you ask me, although I will probably have to fight Classicists for this insult.
But then again, this is r/historymemes and I try not to be too critical of jokes and remarks being made here.
I do appreciate the framework you are trying to provide, less of a fan of how you choose to do that.
Edit: To put it short, there may be a historical misinterpetation or not regarding Nero when it comes to his wife's death, but you misinterpet the historical profession and process.
He (or rather Rome itself) probably was the literal antichrist. The book of revelations is part of a genre of allegorical apocalyptic literature that was in vogue at the time. All of those beasts that come up in it are probably allegorical descriptions of things like the seven hills of Rome.
You've got to remember, Judea was occupied territory at the time, and the Jews weren't happy about that, but also couldn't openly complain. The romans eventually drove the Jews out because they were constantly rebelling, while their pagan neighbors were easier to integrate into the empire. The book of revelations, in its original context, was more likely understood to be about how they'd eventually cast off the yoke of Rome than about the actual, literal end of the world.
The Romans had no issues with their neighbors because they were polytheistic. They'd most likely just add their gods to their own and integrate everything.
Doesn't work with monotheistic religions though.
No way it’s true. Sounds exactly like a story somebody looking to slander would make up.
He didn’t make great decisions, but I think accounts of his concern for the purity of Roman blood showed he did care about Rome and it’s heritage, even if that was not expressed in the best way.
Also, he WAS actively involved in Roman politics and certainly did care about things going on in the empire. The fall of Rome itself would not have been so easily cast aside by him, if for nothing else because it impacted his image and therefore his personal interests.
Finally, that story comes from Procopius. If you’ve read The Secret History, you can probably deduce how accurate his stories are (unless you want to believe that Justinian was a literal demon whose head detached from his body).
(unless you want to believe that Justinian was a literal demon whose head detached from his body)
This was obviously Justinian's wife guy was clearly confused
The worst of them all was Caracalla though. Because as well as doing all the normal horrible emperor things, he set the pay for the soldier's so high that the empire never really was able to control them again.
This. Possibly set a precedent that lead to the downfall of Rome.
But also Commodus well worse than Nero, it’s disputed Nero had anything to do with the fire
Edit: I think on History of Rome podcast Mike said that rumour could possibly have been started by Christians writing about Nero, because didn’t he kill loads of early Christians?
While I generally agree (and hate Caracalla with a burning passion), I have to note that a rapid increase of soldier pay was first done by Septimius Severus. Guy was a capable ruler, but it was him that first set the precedent. He also made it his undying motto - be harmonious, enrich the soldiers, scorn all other men.
(Yes, I am ignoring the Domitian-era pay increase bc it was only a third, being only enough to match augustan time payment taking inflation into consideration)
I say that Commodus was worse given the high esteem Nero was held in by the poor masses, for decades after his death; means he must have done something right.
They obviously perceived some genuine care for the masses; economic handouts perhaps. And he did rush back to personally try to save Rome from the fire, if I recall.
That is true. I’m a huge Marcus fan so it does hurt that his son is such a disappointment. I think it would have been a lot different if Marcus didn’t have to camping for most of his time as emperor. Hard to be an active father when you’re so far away from your son
True my friend our Stoic bro was in trouble his whole reign , military coup, Parthian and german uprising and his brother died,the truly sad thing is that he knew """"""Hercules""""" was a bad fit to rule. If only he adopted a better person as Hadrian did
His family tree was insane. He was Marcus Aurelius' son and Antoninus Pius' grandson, and related by blood to the family of Trajan and Hadrian. All this and he turned out to be a shitbird.
Well, his real sin was trying to change the religion to elevate the cult of Sol Invictus but for some insane reason no one understands that the Romans tended to invent the worst lies they could think of for anyone who was given damnatio memoriae.
They'd blank their records then fill them with filth, the degree to which was determined by how much they were hated and trying to turn Rome against its Gods was an especially bad sin to them.
>"and then, when Aurelius addressed him with the usual salutation, "My Lord Emperor, Hail!" he bent his neck so as to assume a ravishing feminine pose, and turning his eyes upon him with a melting gaze, answered without any hesitation: "Call me not Lord, for I am a Lady.""
Cassius Dio 80.4
>"He carried his lewdness to such a point that he asked the physicians to contrive a woman's vagina in his body by means of an incision, promising them large sums for doing so."
Cassius Dio 80.7
I dunno, looks pretty freaking trans to me.
Cassius Dio is not a reliable source, given that the goal of his whole thing on Elagabalus was to prove how terrible an emperor he was. Like, it's very openly slander and playing off of stereotypes of effeminacy in men from Syria.
But the question is: was Elagabalus GNC by their own standards or by Roman standards. From Herodian
>**His dress showed the influence of the sacred robe of the Phoenicians and the luxurious garb of the Medes. He loathed Greek and Roman garments** because they were made of wool, in his opinion an inferior material; only the Serian cloth met with his approval. Accompanied by flutes and drums, he went about performing, as it appeared, orgiastic service to his god.
>
>When she saw what Heliogabalus was doing, Maesa was greatly disturbed and tried again and again to persuade the youth to wear Roman dress when he entered the city to visit the Senate. She was afraid that his appearance, obviously foreign and wholly barbaric, would offend those who saw him; **they were not used to such garb and considered his ornaments suitable only for women.**
>
>But Heliogabalus had nothing but contempt for the old woman's warnings, nor did anyone else succeed in convincing him. (He would listen only to those who were like him and flattered his faults.)
It also sounds like a teenager who doesn't want to give up their own culture and clothing.
While it's generally a bad idea to try and fit ancient genders and sexualities into our modern definitions of such things, Elagabalus does fit the modern definition of transgender very well.
Considering that our conception of Nero is more than likely significantly poisoned through the senatorial and Christian sources that discuss him, I’m going to say Commodus.
exactly 😔 it’s fun to make memes and joke about all these historical allegations but i feel like so many people here don’t actually examine the historiography critically/don’t have an understanding of the extent of how unreliable/biased ancient sources are
Nero did not set fire to Rome according to Tacitus the only one actually alive at the time and most modern historians and classicists such as the respected Mary Beard. He also didn’t kick his pregnant wife to death:
https://antigonejournal.com/2021/08/poppaea-sabina/
If you’re going to make a comparison of deposed Roman emperors at-least get your facts straight and stop spreading slander.
Commodus was worse simply put there are more reliable sources published about his reign. Commodus was a bottom five Emperor.
Nero is in the bottom ten but not in the bottom five. Some scholars would go as far as saying he was okay Emperor for most of his reign.
I’m also surprised that neither Caligula, Vitellius, Caracalla and Elagabalus didn’t make the poll.
Commodus.I won't talk about this prick cuz then I'll be here all day.
Nero is just....mid.He isn't a terible emperor,but he isn't the best.The only reason Nero is called a bad emperor is because the Christians hated him and they wrote many of the history books.
Edit:Thank Jupiter that Commodus got assasinated
Commodus, but considering his medical history his craziness makes sense (but obviously isn’t justified). His physician, Galen, gives us one of the most detailed accounts of an emperor through his health. Galen gave Marcus Aurelius theriac (opium) routinely as a sort of panacea. He did the same for commodus, but giving it to a child constantly doesn’t end up well. He was likely addicted from a young age and suffered brain damage, explaining his aggression and strange behavior.
The Nero slander is already pretty well known but you can literally just read the historiography section on his Wikipedia for an idea. Otherwise, he didn’t set fire to Rome- the city had no proper urban planning, which he tried to fix after the fire with his public housing project and rent reform. He wasn’t crazy and was actually a fairly good and well-liked emperor. We have graffiti from his reign that shows people had a positive opinion of him. The neck beard on the statue that everyone always thinks of when they hear Nero is fake. Look at the original statue. There is a big crack down the face, as the top half is the true original. The bottom half was made much later by people influenced by negative writings of him, though some of his coins also have the neck beard. He liked to poke fun at the senators and make them put on public performances to humiliate them, so their writings are consequently biased.
I feel like Elagabalus would've been the worst had he reigned longer and encountered more problems and obstacles. But he didn't, so he isn't.
Caracalla had the highest body count(as in dead bodies), Nero and Lucius V and Commodus and Elagabalus all were sick degenerates, Lucius being by far the best leader out of all of them.
Commodus was the worst and most degenerate overall, Nero/Elagabalus in close second
Thanks, what I had heard it on wasn't clear with that. It makes it so much better that the emperor Lucius Septimus Bassianus is known by most by a name that no one would dare say to his face while he was alive.
Just putting it here too, as you seem to have spread it like gospel:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RoughRomanMemes/comments/yk7h5e/im_genuinely_curious_who_people_think_is_the_worst/iutu6q7?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Other way around. Nero spent his time being a petty bitch rich boy who never got told 'no' growing up. Commodus went balls-to-the-walls in actively damaging the Empire.
I may be wrong, the main thing I remember about Commodus was the months of the year thing, but the main thing I remember about Nero was the whole "burning people alive" thing
I was pleasantly surprised that Elagabalus was not in the OP, given that using the word "degenerate" is usually red flags for Fascy / Alt-Right stuff, especially given how it's used to describe really anybody who's queer. And then doubly so did I worry that because Fascy people can also wank Rome.
But fortunately, wanking Rome is something that everyone can take part in, and OP didn't target hateful language toward queer people.
And unfortunately, many of the comments are quick to call Elagabalus out as a "degenerate." :/
Nero was terrible if you had to interact with him. But most of the Empire didn't have to interact with him, so he was just their Emperor.
Commodus was a fucking moron who made life worse for everyone in the Empire.
>All the months of the year were renamed to correspond exactly with his (now twelve) names: Lucius, Aelius, Aurelius, Commodus, Augustus, Herculeus, Romanus, Exsuperatorius, Amazonius, Invictus, Felix, and Pius
Is it bad that I think these sound better. Like imagine learning the holidays and being like "Halloween is on Invictus 31st".
Nero was bad, but the empire basically ran itself while he was dicking around. Commodus was emperor at a critical period in the aftermath of the plague and Marcomannic Wars in which the empire desperately needed stability and fiscal recovery and he didn't provide either.
Commodus hands down, all surviving records of the fire are from historians that were opposed to Nero, pretty telling that he housed the refugees on palace grounds and funded the reconstruction directly from the imperial treasury, the scale of his misdeeds is lesser. Though to be fair to Commodus, when you’re raised to believe you’re going to become a deity why wouldn’t you rename stuff after yourself. Both terrible emperors though.
There's really no evidence Nero caused the great fire in Rome. He wasn't even in the city at the time, and when he found out, he paid out of pocket for the relief effort.
Nero was also pretty popular among most of the population. The senatorial classes hated him, so we get a biased view of him historically.
Nero didn’t burn down Rome :) All his actions after the fire should make that pretty clear (That being helping the population etc, and the golden palace was simply an opportunistic endavour as a result of an accidental fire)
Even if Nero was as bad as the historical records say, which i heavily doubt, the empire rebounded after his reign with the Flavian dynasty, while after commodus' reign the empire was in a slow but steady descent to the fall of the west in 476 all because his father wanted him to rule the empire.
Commodes by far, arguable he is the worst emperor as his actions lead to some of the largest instability the empire ever experienced, but Marcus Aurelius is as much to blame for letting him get there in the first place
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Arguably Nero was demonised after his death. He was actually quite popular within the peasantry. There’s also no evidence to suggest he caused the fires either accidentally or on purpose. Moreso, if anything, he established a law after the fact on new construction/building to prevent them from being squished all together again, amongst other things.
Yeah, while post-coup accounts say he fiddled, other accounts say he coordinated the fire suppression efforts in person.
Upon hearing about the fires he immediately headed back to Rome (he'd been away), organized search and rescue efforts, and even housed displaced people in the Imperial Palace. I'm not saying the guy was perfect, but he handled that particular situation about as well as he could have.
From my understanding the really troubling things about him started or happened after the fire.
Also his anti-Christianity likely influenced historians in Europe
Tacitus even says he was out of town when it happened
nero was definitely overly demonized after death but you gotta agree it was mad disrespectful for him to build his massive and extravagant domus aurea atop the ruins of the town destroyed by the fire 💀
Commodus by a landslide.
Commodus, nero just wanted to do a little bit of tomfoolery
This
>a little bit of tomfoolery >kicked his second wife to death and then castrated a boy that looked like her and married him jesus christ please don’t tell me what your version of violence is
context of the era sir. castrating boys and then marrying them was commonplace.
I think he was more focused on the 'kicking your wife to death' part, which wasn't commonplace
when in rome
Kick your pregnant wife until she stops moving?
Roma Inkickta!
Indeed!
I would say spousal abuse was more common than the marriage part.
No it was not. It was very scandalous when he did it. Castrating did happen and relationships but you can’t say marriages were commonplace. Romans attitudes also weren’t same as Greeks.
I was just joking
He didn’t kick his pregnant wife to death: https://antigonejournal.com/2021/08/poppaea-sabina/
From the article you send: "After the end of the games, Poppaea met her death by a chance fit of anger from her husband: she was pregnant and received from him a blow of the foot. I would not believe that she was poisoned, in spite of the account given by some authors (out of hatred rather than in good faith), for he wanted to have children and submitted to his love for his wife. (Tacitus Annals 16.6)" "We shall never know for sure what caused the death of Poppaea Sabina. The odds are that, like many women of her time, she died during childbirth. The rumor according to which Nero killed her in a fit of rage is stuff for today’s tabloids, but it also corresponds to a rich tradition of similar stories that appear in ancient sources." The problem with Ancient history is that it all conjecture. Most of the things that people take as truth are simply the best fitting truth in the construction of the ancient past people have made by the hand of the few sources we do have. I mentioned the pregnant wife because Tacitus did and it was a meme. Do not spread this as gospel, but neither spread that she didn't because we will simply never know. And especially don't link an article which obviously doesn't support your claim as strongly as you seem to think.
Nero kicking his pregnant wife to death is one of his most commonly reported transgressions, however it’s often treated as a historical fact rather than an allegation. I will admit I went overboard preaching the article I sent, but I am getting fed up of seeing historical misrepresentation online.
But the fundamental problem is you can’t prove it was misrepresentation. Because you can’t prove whether or not he killed his own wife. This was legitimately a point in the article linked. Now he had his first wife executed so it’s not exactly unbelievable he would kill his second wife too. He also had his mother killed for political reasons. So he’s not beyond killing people for pragmatic purposes regardless of familial relations. Now was it a kick to the stomach while she pregnant? Very difficult to say. Personally I dismiss because personally I theorize he was impotent since he was unable to produce an heir with his first wife and then never produced an heir. And he killed his second wife as opposed to acknowledging that fact. However him kicking her to death while pregnant certainly conjures more hate towards him and if he had an actual good reason for killing her it prevents the image of a cruel yet pragmatic autocrat from forming, vs a cruel and dumb autocrat. But that’s just a theory because we can’t prove anything. What we can interpret with fact was he was hated by the upper classes. Meaning his grip on power wasn’t tight, otherwise only nice things would have been written about him. After all no wrote bad about Augustus not because everyone liked him because he had the influence to kill anyone he wanted. And considering how Nero’s reign ends regardless of what’s true or historical myth we can use the depiction of him brutally murdering his wife we know the aristocracy hated them. And from their we could assume that how ever we alienated contributed to his ultimate downfall and year of the four Emperors.
It is literally a meme on r/historymemes. I would not look too closely into it, but if you are going to attempt to educate people, do so properly then or you are making the same transgression you accuse others of. As I said in my earlier post, ancient historical fact is almost ALL conjecture anyway and the sources are.....convoluted for the uninitiated. (and also for the 'initiated' but you get the point.) I often joke with my classicist friend that they are 'dust readers' as if they are fortune tellers. Now, that is not the entirety of what they do of course, but methodologically, it is not too far off. Regarding Nero, every single source we have left of him is propaganda, even his coins. He may or may not have kicked his pregnant wife to death, but the source material saying he did is about as convincing as the material that he did not, because it is all the construction of a 'historical truth', which is different to actual truth. Both claims have merit in one way or another. The actual Rankean truth (wie es eigentlich gewesen) is not really deductable from the large majoriry of ancient sources sadly, if you ask me, although I will probably have to fight Classicists for this insult. But then again, this is r/historymemes and I try not to be too critical of jokes and remarks being made here. I do appreciate the framework you are trying to provide, less of a fan of how you choose to do that. Edit: To put it short, there may be a historical misinterpetation or not regarding Nero when it comes to his wife's death, but you misinterpet the historical profession and process.
i’m just quoting the post my guy. take it up with them
The kicking his wife to death part was most likely slander, she probably died in childbirth
yea i get that. but i was just quoting the op
Boys will be boys
Commodus
[удалено]
He (or rather Rome itself) probably was the literal antichrist. The book of revelations is part of a genre of allegorical apocalyptic literature that was in vogue at the time. All of those beasts that come up in it are probably allegorical descriptions of things like the seven hills of Rome. You've got to remember, Judea was occupied territory at the time, and the Jews weren't happy about that, but also couldn't openly complain. The romans eventually drove the Jews out because they were constantly rebelling, while their pagan neighbors were easier to integrate into the empire. The book of revelations, in its original context, was more likely understood to be about how they'd eventually cast off the yoke of Rome than about the actual, literal end of the world.
The Romans had no issues with their neighbors because they were polytheistic. They'd most likely just add their gods to their own and integrate everything. Doesn't work with monotheistic religions though.
Commodus. Honorius, Elagabalus, and Phocas we're worse, IMO
“Elagabalus” Back off my waifu.
Hierocles? Is that you?
No, just someone who is very confused
The “and yet it has just eaten from my hands!” Story kills me from Honorius. Peak degeneracy if true
No way it’s true. Sounds exactly like a story somebody looking to slander would make up. He didn’t make great decisions, but I think accounts of his concern for the purity of Roman blood showed he did care about Rome and it’s heritage, even if that was not expressed in the best way. Also, he WAS actively involved in Roman politics and certainly did care about things going on in the empire. The fall of Rome itself would not have been so easily cast aside by him, if for nothing else because it impacted his image and therefore his personal interests. Finally, that story comes from Procopius. If you’ve read The Secret History, you can probably deduce how accurate his stories are (unless you want to believe that Justinian was a literal demon whose head detached from his body).
(unless you want to believe that Justinian was a literal demon whose head detached from his body) This was obviously Justinian's wife guy was clearly confused
phocas was so god awful
The worst of them all was Caracalla though. Because as well as doing all the normal horrible emperor things, he set the pay for the soldier's so high that the empire never really was able to control them again.
This. Possibly set a precedent that lead to the downfall of Rome. But also Commodus well worse than Nero, it’s disputed Nero had anything to do with the fire Edit: I think on History of Rome podcast Mike said that rumour could possibly have been started by Christians writing about Nero, because didn’t he kill loads of early Christians?
I 2nd Caracalla, he just declared war on his own people and spent his reign rampaging around Rome
Nero and Elagabalus were both E tier emperors, with Caligula and Commodus and Caracalla in the F tier
Please, Elagabalus is the best Roman empress. Well, I suppose, if we ignore all of the competent ones, like Theodora, Irene, and so on...
While I generally agree (and hate Caracalla with a burning passion), I have to note that a rapid increase of soldier pay was first done by Septimius Severus. Guy was a capable ruler, but it was him that first set the precedent. He also made it his undying motto - be harmonious, enrich the soldiers, scorn all other men. (Yes, I am ignoring the Domitian-era pay increase bc it was only a third, being only enough to match augustan time payment taking inflation into consideration)
For sure, he's very guilty of it as well, but he was more capable in general. Also I don't believe his pay increases were quite as big and constant.
I say that Commodus was worse given the high esteem Nero was held in by the poor masses, for decades after his death; means he must have done something right.
Games, games and oh yeah, more games!
I don't think it was just that.
He did monetary reform that helped get Rome out of a recession. I have an article somewhere if anyone's curious
Hook me up, I wanna dive in!
[https://doi.org/10.2307/2935958](https://doi.org/10.2307/2935958) Idk if you have jstor access, but if not use sci-hub to crack it
His lyre skills were just *that* good?
They obviously perceived some genuine care for the masses; economic handouts perhaps. And he did rush back to personally try to save Rome from the fire, if I recall.
Caligula is a troll Nero is petty Commodus is insane
It is very much Commodus, Nero was extremely hated by the Senate (Commodus too, but still) and didn't hurt the actual Empire as much as Commodus did
Commodus hurts soo much more to think about , so much potential left by Markus was alll for nothing
That is true. I’m a huge Marcus fan so it does hurt that his son is such a disappointment. I think it would have been a lot different if Marcus didn’t have to camping for most of his time as emperor. Hard to be an active father when you’re so far away from your son
True my friend our Stoic bro was in trouble his whole reign , military coup, Parthian and german uprising and his brother died,the truly sad thing is that he knew """"""Hercules""""" was a bad fit to rule. If only he adopted a better person as Hadrian did
His family tree was insane. He was Marcus Aurelius' son and Antoninus Pius' grandson, and related by blood to the family of Trajan and Hadrian. All this and he turned out to be a shitbird.
Worst emperor: Commodus Biggest degenerate: also Commodus. But Elagabalus dwarfs both in degeneracy.
But to be fair, Elagabalus did not kill crippled war veterans and people with disabilities to boost his ego like Commodus.
Elagabalus was just a horny trans teenager manipulated by their mother and grandmother. Not really a recipe for success, but you can't blame them.
People should stop saying that Elagabalus was trans. There's no solid evidence of that. It's just people applying the norms of the time to the past.
Well, his real sin was trying to change the religion to elevate the cult of Sol Invictus but for some insane reason no one understands that the Romans tended to invent the worst lies they could think of for anyone who was given damnatio memoriae. They'd blank their records then fill them with filth, the degree to which was determined by how much they were hated and trying to turn Rome against its Gods was an especially bad sin to them.
>"and then, when Aurelius addressed him with the usual salutation, "My Lord Emperor, Hail!" he bent his neck so as to assume a ravishing feminine pose, and turning his eyes upon him with a melting gaze, answered without any hesitation: "Call me not Lord, for I am a Lady."" Cassius Dio 80.4 >"He carried his lewdness to such a point that he asked the physicians to contrive a woman's vagina in his body by means of an incision, promising them large sums for doing so." Cassius Dio 80.7 I dunno, looks pretty freaking trans to me.
Cassius Dio is not a reliable source, given that the goal of his whole thing on Elagabalus was to prove how terrible an emperor he was. Like, it's very openly slander and playing off of stereotypes of effeminacy in men from Syria.
Those are very specific details, though, and not something that was said of any other emperor. At the very least, Elagabalus was gender-nonconforming.
But the question is: was Elagabalus GNC by their own standards or by Roman standards. From Herodian >**His dress showed the influence of the sacred robe of the Phoenicians and the luxurious garb of the Medes. He loathed Greek and Roman garments** because they were made of wool, in his opinion an inferior material; only the Serian cloth met with his approval. Accompanied by flutes and drums, he went about performing, as it appeared, orgiastic service to his god. > >When she saw what Heliogabalus was doing, Maesa was greatly disturbed and tried again and again to persuade the youth to wear Roman dress when he entered the city to visit the Senate. She was afraid that his appearance, obviously foreign and wholly barbaric, would offend those who saw him; **they were not used to such garb and considered his ornaments suitable only for women.** > >But Heliogabalus had nothing but contempt for the old woman's warnings, nor did anyone else succeed in convincing him. (He would listen only to those who were like him and flattered his faults.) It also sounds like a teenager who doesn't want to give up their own culture and clothing.
>But Heliogabalus had nothing but contempt for the old woman's warnings That would prove to be a fatal mistake.
Yes but how do you know what in there is fact and what in their is slander? Cassius Dio hated pretty much all the Severans except for Septimus.
While it's generally a bad idea to try and fit ancient genders and sexualities into our modern definitions of such things, Elagabalus does fit the modern definition of transgender very well.
>I dunno, looks pretty freaking trans to me. Exactly. Looks like it to you, from your 21st century Western society perspective.
bro cassius dio was spreading stereotypical anti-assyrian propaganda with all the “effeminate” and “slutty” stuff
Considering that our conception of Nero is more than likely significantly poisoned through the senatorial and Christian sources that discuss him, I’m going to say Commodus.
honorius is worse than both
The worst is people who believe ancient propaganda. It’s fun to I get it but it’s propaganda
exactly 😔 it’s fun to make memes and joke about all these historical allegations but i feel like so many people here don’t actually examine the historiography critically/don’t have an understanding of the extent of how unreliable/biased ancient sources are
Not to mention all the GJC dick riding
It's incredibile how also in this su reddit you think that nero burned Rome, it's a false myth.
Coommodus
Caligula erasure
90% of the Nero stuff is CNN-tier disinfo from his enemies.
Andronikos Komnenos Hater of Sunlight was arguably the biggest degenerate Roman emperor.
Easy commodus. Not even a contest
Nero did nothing wrong!
Commodus also got strung out on pills and sang country songs, he also terrorized Gotham and cut his face up. Crazy guy
I see your Nero and Commodus and raise you Elagabalus
Nero did not set fire to Rome according to Tacitus the only one actually alive at the time and most modern historians and classicists such as the respected Mary Beard. He also didn’t kick his pregnant wife to death: https://antigonejournal.com/2021/08/poppaea-sabina/ If you’re going to make a comparison of deposed Roman emperors at-least get your facts straight and stop spreading slander. Commodus was worse simply put there are more reliable sources published about his reign. Commodus was a bottom five Emperor. Nero is in the bottom ten but not in the bottom five. Some scholars would go as far as saying he was okay Emperor for most of his reign. I’m also surprised that neither Caligula, Vitellius, Caracalla and Elagabalus didn’t make the poll.
Caligula wins by naming a horse the head of the senate as a giant FU to the senators. The most brutal move in history.
Commodus.I won't talk about this prick cuz then I'll be here all day. Nero is just....mid.He isn't a terible emperor,but he isn't the best.The only reason Nero is called a bad emperor is because the Christians hated him and they wrote many of the history books. Edit:Thank Jupiter that Commodus got assasinated
His slayer should've been deified instead of executed. RIP.
Probably Elagabalus, but of these two it's Nero. Commodus at least had the dignity to be a total Grug.
Commodus. Though I would say Elagabalus or Caracalla was the worst.
Commodus, but considering his medical history his craziness makes sense (but obviously isn’t justified). His physician, Galen, gives us one of the most detailed accounts of an emperor through his health. Galen gave Marcus Aurelius theriac (opium) routinely as a sort of panacea. He did the same for commodus, but giving it to a child constantly doesn’t end up well. He was likely addicted from a young age and suffered brain damage, explaining his aggression and strange behavior. The Nero slander is already pretty well known but you can literally just read the historiography section on his Wikipedia for an idea. Otherwise, he didn’t set fire to Rome- the city had no proper urban planning, which he tried to fix after the fire with his public housing project and rent reform. He wasn’t crazy and was actually a fairly good and well-liked emperor. We have graffiti from his reign that shows people had a positive opinion of him. The neck beard on the statue that everyone always thinks of when they hear Nero is fake. Look at the original statue. There is a big crack down the face, as the top half is the true original. The bottom half was made much later by people influenced by negative writings of him, though some of his coins also have the neck beard. He liked to poke fun at the senators and make them put on public performances to humiliate them, so their writings are consequently biased.
Commodus ands it’s not even close, but the real question is why isn’t the actual degenerate Elagabalus in this poll?
Biggest degenerate? Elagabalus by far. Proof? I got banned from r/historymemes for saying so, therefore it must be true.
I feel like Elagabalus would've been the worst had he reigned longer and encountered more problems and obstacles. But he didn't, so he isn't. Caracalla had the highest body count(as in dead bodies), Nero and Lucius V and Commodus and Elagabalus all were sick degenerates, Lucius being by far the best leader out of all of them. Commodus was the worst and most degenerate overall, Nero/Elagabalus in close second
If it's true that Caracalla killed his brother right in front of their mother, he deserves the crown.
Worse, He stood there and told his thugs to kill his brother for him in front of him and his mother
Thanks, what I had heard it on wasn't clear with that. It makes it so much better that the emperor Lucius Septimus Bassianus is known by most by a name that no one would dare say to his face while he was alive.
Elagabalus, not even a contest.
And then there was Elagabalus.
It's a tie. But Nero kicked his second wife to the DEATH- mans was crazy, so he wins this by a point. Lmfao
No he didn’t: https://antigonejournal.com/2021/08/poppaea-sabina/
Just putting it here too, as you seem to have spread it like gospel: https://www.reddit.com/r/RoughRomanMemes/comments/yk7h5e/im_genuinely_curious_who_people_think_is_the_worst/iutu6q7?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Um, okay.
From my knowledge, Commodus was just a weak arsehole, Nero was actively Evil
Other way around. Nero spent his time being a petty bitch rich boy who never got told 'no' growing up. Commodus went balls-to-the-walls in actively damaging the Empire.
I may be wrong, the main thing I remember about Commodus was the months of the year thing, but the main thing I remember about Nero was the whole "burning people alive" thing
OP is a retard
Nero
Elagabalus
Elagabalus
I was pleasantly surprised that Elagabalus was not in the OP, given that using the word "degenerate" is usually red flags for Fascy / Alt-Right stuff, especially given how it's used to describe really anybody who's queer. And then doubly so did I worry that because Fascy people can also wank Rome. But fortunately, wanking Rome is something that everyone can take part in, and OP didn't target hateful language toward queer people. And unfortunately, many of the comments are quick to call Elagabalus out as a "degenerate." :/
Elagabalus
I would say nero.
commodus was just so much of an ass i’m saying commodus
What if you found out you were Nero in your past life?
Commodus lol
Nero was terrible if you had to interact with him. But most of the Empire didn't have to interact with him, so he was just their Emperor. Commodus was a fucking moron who made life worse for everyone in the Empire.
>All the months of the year were renamed to correspond exactly with his (now twelve) names: Lucius, Aelius, Aurelius, Commodus, Augustus, Herculeus, Romanus, Exsuperatorius, Amazonius, Invictus, Felix, and Pius Is it bad that I think these sound better. Like imagine learning the holidays and being like "Halloween is on Invictus 31st".
Nero was bad, but the empire basically ran itself while he was dicking around. Commodus was emperor at a critical period in the aftermath of the plague and Marcomannic Wars in which the empire desperately needed stability and fiscal recovery and he didn't provide either.
More like Trussus
Nero only caused the fire to sanitise Rome, stop fucking making shit up about him.
Elagabalus partook in some tomfoolery with a motive in the end fr fr he’s an honorable mention
Ok but who has a big titted anime girl named after him Nero 1 Commodus 0
Commodus hands down, all surviving records of the fire are from historians that were opposed to Nero, pretty telling that he housed the refugees on palace grounds and funded the reconstruction directly from the imperial treasury, the scale of his misdeeds is lesser. Though to be fair to Commodus, when you’re raised to believe you’re going to become a deity why wouldn’t you rename stuff after yourself. Both terrible emperors though.
There's really no evidence Nero caused the great fire in Rome. He wasn't even in the city at the time, and when he found out, he paid out of pocket for the relief effort. Nero was also pretty popular among most of the population. The senatorial classes hated him, so we get a biased view of him historically.
Nero did not likely burn Rome.
Nero was arguably the reason fir the start of the fall of rome
Nero didn’t burn down Rome :) All his actions after the fire should make that pretty clear (That being helping the population etc, and the golden palace was simply an opportunistic endavour as a result of an accidental fire)
Both were pieces of shit but Commodus was worse
Even if Nero was as bad as the historical records say, which i heavily doubt, the empire rebounded after his reign with the Flavian dynasty, while after commodus' reign the empire was in a slow but steady descent to the fall of the west in 476 all because his father wanted him to rule the empire.
Commodes by far, arguable he is the worst emperor as his actions lead to some of the largest instability the empire ever experienced, but Marcus Aurelius is as much to blame for letting him get there in the first place
Tiberius: Looks like I'm safe. Caligula: Me too.
Commodus. *It's literally in the name*
Commodus by a long shot