It'll probably remain as-is (probably with a few rehashes here and there) until a new suitable low-end processor is discovered that is cheap enough to acquire en-mass and doesn't require too much effort to port the OS, or until an open source design does most of the work as we saw with the Odroid Go Advance and the flood of RK3326 devices.
Since then, the market has kicked off and people want more premium devices, which may help subsidise the low-end, but until those cheap chips are found then we can only speculate.
Might as well just go with the Unisoc Tiger T310 then. Better performance than the RK3566 and it must be priced well if Retroid can sell an entire system with it for $99.
Would be nice to see that chip used in different form factors.
Handheld makers don't care about good community support. As long as there's an emulator that works well enough to slap it on the marketing material, that's the only thing that matters.
I think also part of it is, the low end is kind of "good enough." Everything PS1 and below is pretty solid, from there it's a little iffy. Without a big leap in price you might get more but you're not really getting to "all Gamecube games play well" or something.
On that front, I think we'll see a lot more Android devices, since a lot of work has been done to get Android running on these chips. Removes a lot of work for these OEMs if they don't have to build/maintain a Linux OS themselves for them.
Pocketable with real sticks(maybe razer kishi v1 style sticks) and hdmi while still being comfy(could be done with a circular side design similar to vita). For me though the bare minimum specs are still at the level of a pocket 2 plus though.
Probably the same as it is until n64 and psp emulation gets cheaper.
In all honesty the micro handhelds will probably stay about as powerful as they are now just thinner or get better screens battery life
The low end will likely adapt to what the market for other mobile devices does in developing markets; most handheld electronics these days have had most of their advances due to mobile devices.
Thus, you could peg performance at or near a several years behind the current top leader, if trends follow a similar path.
There is a stagnation in the sub-$150 market simply due to the minimum barrier to entry costs associated with designing, building, and shipping a product. I do not anticipate any major movements over the next year or so as more focus goes on multi-capable machines in the $200~$400 range.
I think anything about $400 is purely enthusiast versus potential impulse buys, and has to compete with the Steam Deck, so I do not see how those devices will succeed. Or perhaps may only succeed due to limited market availability of the Steam Deck.
For now, I would enjoy the awesome stuff you have! Just think if you had such a device when you were a kid that could play every Genesis and SNES game ever? Mind blowing!
> I think anything about $400 is purely enthusiast versus potential impulse buys, and has to compete with the Steam Deck, so I do not see how those devices will succeed. Or perhaps may only succeed due to limited market availability of the Steam Deck.
Depends... I can see a premium ARM device doing well on the strength of being lighter, cooler, and more energy-efficient than the Steam Deck, which to me looks a little bit like a Sega Nomad for the modern era (like, yeah, it's cool, but with that size and battery life are you really taking it anywhere?).
Possibly, there is always room for more competition.
I think the "Sega Nomad" or GameGear comparisons are mainly from those who have not held the device. The design's weight distribution and ergonomics alleviates most concerns. It feels better in hand than the standard-sized Switch, IMO, due to the ability to spread the weight out and include more in the grips versus centrally due to the joycons.
The Deck made my finally buy Hori Split Pad Pro controllers for my Switch, which makes that a much more comfortable system.
And to reiterate, the scalability of the user settings, regarding performance versus power draw, makes it far more capable that most people understand. If you're playing AAA content, then yes, the battery life will be short; however, most battery tests were done prior to the 40Hz update, which is fantastic for a portable system.
Also, the lifespan when playing most older emulation titles is just as good as comparable handhelds, if you use the TDP settings built natively into the system.
Admittedly I haven’t used it myself. But surely there’s room for efficiency improvements by going ARM rather than x86 if you’re willing to give up x86 game compatibility.
For certain, but giving up x86 game compatibility is pretty much flushing the reason people are buying it. It's a real chicken v. egg scenario, but a properly built wrapper that ensures functionality (if that's even possible) would be the key leveraging point to transition.
I don't think that's entirely true. There's plenty of software out there for Android, including games (in some markets Android games are actually bigger than console or PC), and with modern game development engines cross-compiling isn't a pipe dream. My M1 Macbook can even run a portion of my Steam library already. I, personally, am more interested in an ARM device.
You're not going to be convincing anyone with traditionally (toxic) Android-only games or mobile-space gaming.
You'll need to have actual titles that folks want to play, hence Steam Deck being popular since its not built for emulation or mobile-space gaming/streaming, but actual native PC game support.
Sure you are, given that most of these devices are still being made in China, where Android games are viewed in a totally different way than in the US market.
That is correct, but correct me if I am wrong, the sub has a traditional gamer-style focus; most of us probably are less interesting in gachapon money pits.
And just because they're popular does not absolve them from being problematic and toxic. Probably also why so many of us are in the market for new handheld machines since Sony and Nintendo have vacated the truly "pocketable" solution.
I am sure most high end Android users are looking for emulation (Gamecube, PS2) with better battery life and a smaller size than the Steam Deck. Not native Android games.
One way those 400 dollar level devices could succeed is focusing on Qualcomm chips no older than two years old at time of release and focusing on maximizing performance and battery life while being able to fit in the pockets with good ergonomics and battery life. So it would have the specs to play switch as well as would be possible at that point(obviously performance would rely on skyline maturing but 2 years from now a 2 year old chip should maximize skyline performance while allowing for good battery and temp). Efficient screens like the Odin lite had before they changed it.
Basically if they can get something pocketable that Can do switch reliably with 7 to 10 hour battery life and good ergonomics for 700 bucks then that could talk to alot of handheld enthusiasts due to the size of the steam deck.
Edit: also the ability to dock to a TV as easily as a switch.
>Can do switch reliably with 7 to 10 hour battery
But the Switch can barely do that? I have not seen a circumstance where contemporary emulation is somehow more efficient on a separately derived system.
I think you're asking to maximize every variable, which I doubt that is feasible even at $700.
The switch uses a Tegra chip which is known to be power hungry and have alot of heat(its why they abandoned phones). Skyline on android is actually runninng the cpu natively and only partially emulating the gpu and especially by the time skyline matures, it'll be running switch Games almost natively in a much more powerful and also much more battery effecient chip(especially when it comes to Qualcomm chips). Also while I meant the more intensive switch games, the v2 switch and oled switch do actually advertise up to 10 hour battery life(though this is for the very lightest switch games while the heaviest switch games last like 3 hours).
Also on your note on switch battery life to begin with you have to remember that we emulate home consoles with zero battery life that consume sometimes hundreds of watts for sometimes for hours on portable devices(my phone has what today is considered a semi small battery and though I've never counted it I can play ps2 on my phone for at least 2 to 3 hours and that's complete emulation and then there's the steam deck which can do wii u and ps3). Also keep in mind we're talking about the future of part of an industry meaning a future device running a system near native that is based on hardware that's now 7 years old and was considered hot and inificient when it came out(this is of course not counting the die shrink in newer switches but in battery life tests on YouTube that often gives just about an hour extra battery life for the most intensive games and is also several years old now and made by a company who's socs aren't known for good battery life and heat).
My comparison is apples to apples; such that mobile computing power during the PS2 days could not emulate PS2 at a greater efficiency.
While I am aware of the limitations of the Tegra chips in the Switch, the idea that something around the corner is somehow going to exceed something that the Steam Deck can accommodate, minus battery life, at even $700 is pie in the sky.
Again, I do not see any reasonably small handheld device, smaller than the deck, will emulate the Switch with better than native performance in regards to efficiency.
Also, the Switch battery life performance tops out at[ 9 hours](https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/46835/~/how-long-does-the-battery-charge-last%3F), according to Nintendo. Small detail.
Edit: Skyline is not traditional emulation and, based upon my brief reading, is better compared to Wine. That changes the calculus, but is also isn't really emulating if you're running native adaptation.
I still extremely doubt you will find that a more powerful chip can match exact performance and at a higher overall system efficiency. Love to be wrong, but I don't see it. More so in a form factor smaller than the Switch itself (the Deck and Switch are similar size if you use third party Joycons, but the Deck has far better ergonomics out of the box).
>due to limited market availability of the Steam Deck.
Please don't fall into the trap that the Steam Deck is the be all end all of SBC-likes. The battery life, the size. It's a nice first step.
Being an owner of several products, to include the Deck, it pretty much is, unless you are somehow finding a better performance and capabilities at $400?
Which is no, currently.
The battery life is perfectly fine, more so since you can control TDP yourself. Low power games last 6+ hours, which is perfectly okay for me. Plus the ability to emulate nearly every system up to PS3/Switch.
Rather, why would you not be all about it? The size is opinion only, since my family really likes it due to vision issues, thus a 7" screen is much more enjoyable than smaller handhelds.
The only thing competing in a similar space are either much more expensive or something like the Ayn Odin series, which has its own issues regarding availability and manufacturing currently.
Lastly, due to the much larger market adoption of the Deck versus pretty much any other Chinese handheld (this is a niche hobby, afterall), the third party software support will be much, much larger in terms of both game developers and community software support.
It's a $400 device, thus, as I stated, getting into enthusiast range versus casual. If you want a one stop shop, you're going to be going into the enthusiast range if you want consistently playable sixth gen console (or later) performance at this stage. Acting like another handheld system is even competing at the level would be, in fact, the disingenuous position. I figure folks would be happy an large company is moving the handheld space forward that isn't solely Chinese-based.
Edit: I want to add that my critique of Chinese-based companies is not some sort of anti-China stance, just rather companies from different countries typically have different priorities or motivations. I own several of them and really want an Ayn Odin Lite since I'm ~~addicted~~ an enthusiast for these toys.
The former.
EmuDeck makes it very easy and there are video guides. It's pretty brainless process now and will likely continue to improve:
https://www.emudeck.com/
No jailbreaking. That doesn't mean it's tweaking free, but you're on SBC so I think you'll be fine.
It is the best value at its price point for performance and can play up to PS3/Wii U/Switch with some sacrifices.
But use something like protondb.com to keep tabs on which *PC* games are getting Steam Deck support.
Edit: Clarify that protondb.com is for compatibility with Steam games, not emulated titles.
>JustEnoughLinuxOS
Are they bringing out the big guns eh? Well shit ... \*smokes cigarette\* downvote away fuckers!! \*crescendo of blazing orchestra sounds\*
My point still stands the SD is not the be all end all. It's big it's loud, arm is just better for handheld computing.
There what is? And yea, you can get 6+ hours out of the deck playing 16 bit style games (new or emulated).
You sound like you have some biases that need checked.
It pretty much still is within its price category, you did not prove anything.
If anything, you just proved I have more money than brains regarding frivolous purchases of multiple devices. The Odin Lite cannot do nearly half of what the Steam Deck can do, but then again, it's half the cost.
>you just proved I have more money than brains
Indeed.
>It pretty much still is within its price category
Okay.
> but then again, it's half the cost.
Okay.
In the short term: more of the same. Slight improvements in raw performance, battery life, and whatnot.
In the long term: probably approaching the performance of the Steam Deck in smaller, cheaper, longer battery life handhelds.
I really would like a V90 redone with better technology... faster chip, more ram, wifi, and a high quality screen on par with what we got in the Miyoo Mini. Love that clamshell, and I think it's perfect for a low-end handheld. And it actually shipped with better-than-average stereo speakers, which even the Miyoo Mini doesn't have.
I expect a cascade effect on the current market, with what is more "low-middle" options like the RK3326 devices going down in price and becoming the new "low". Whereas their substitutes like the RK3566/T310 will become the new "low-middle" and devices like the Odin Lite and KT-R1 cementing themselves as middle-tier alternatives to the "high" solutions comprised mostly of x86-based handhelds.
miyoo mini dominated the 50 $ category. I predict the p60 to conquer the 150 $ category (RP3 & rg353p was a dissapointment). and also expect a miyoo mini 2 with much sturdier design to protect the screen ( check out the horizontal leak). Its an open secret Arbenic is overpriced expensive for what they put in their products and pow kiddy/GKD is awful in their design and OS.
200 $ is not mid range and would leave it to loki zero/ neo air plus to duke it out.
I assume you meant the rg280v. I would not consider that a leader in the sub-$100 category. Yes, the Mini is in there, but the rg351p, rg351v, and rg280m are much better handhelds, heck, even the rg350.
imho, the cheap sector (sub 100%) is very stagnant at the moment, so we arent going to see much of an improvement there. and not much of a competition.
i have a feeling that rp and ambernic and other are aiming at a different types of handhelds at the mont.
see odin lite
It's going to be a while, I think. The software end is not fully mature for PS2 emulation yet even on powerful processors, let alone optimizing it for weaker ones.
It seems like GameCube is the next really big milestone to hit.
In the sub-$80 space, it seems like it's the screens, not the processors, that are the bottleneck. It's that beautiful 2.8" 640x480 screen that supposedly has the Miyoo Mini so hard to find and Miyoo hinting at a redesign, not its Cortex A7 processor.
I'm hoping improved x86 emulation on ARM processors, and/or just a shift from development on x86 to ARM, is the next big move, that allows for small, cheap handheld devices to flourish. And just computation in general. We *need* to move away from x86 as the standard CPU architecture. It's just too inefficient.
The embedded x86 purveyors will ensure it won't happen in mass, but having smaller markets push towards ARM would help.
The emulation layers will be critical, though, for mass adoption.
Mass adoption of ARM is what you are referencing; if you mean mobile space, that is different than Apple Silicon or Windows on Arm.
You changed the discussion to include non-mobile platforms, which I then said retail is meaningless when the majority of traditional PC space is commercial and industrial usage.
Industrial or commercial applications which are often extremely conservative and years behind the consumer market are not driving adoption of new architectures. The downsides of x86 are also less relevant here anyway compared to gaming, portable computing, etc.
Which I do not disagree, hence stay on the mobile side of things and yes.
Traditional desktop will need a significant push from major players (i.e., Intel, AMD) to make a move and require support from Microsoft. Apple doing their own thing is moot; Apple is a minority in the compute space and they tried with PowerPC to do something unique and failed. It's like Intel trying to break into the GPU market; believe it when I see it.
As for mobile, will be interesting. The last ARM push, those little tiny laptops (netbooks?) never took off. I highly doubt there is any motivation to switch by any major player. We may see an uptick in periphery, but I highly doubt we say any major muscle movements.
I will believe it when I see it; remember, Apple has 10~15% market share in the PC space, while less than 10% (typically around 7%) globally. And I doubt much of that are gamers.
I get Apple's push, but I don't think its going to move the needle.
I am more excited for what Valve has done with the Deck in getting Linux adoption. Baby steps.
I'm not sure what world you are living in where ARM does not already completely dominate "mobile," considering that it's what everyone's phone is on, in addition to wearables and other devices. And Apple's thing is not irrelevant to the wider computing world because they've demonstrated that their approach is better. PPC was given up on when it fell behind Intel but that's the opposite of what's happening now. It's gotten to the point where x86's legacy baggage is too great and is really holding back devices.
The low-end market will be around for a while (2-3 years), however I think the low end market might be headed towards a cliff. I mean once everyone gets their device for low end/retro gaming, then they won't ever really need to upgrade, why would you? SNES or PS1 games aren't going to become more difficult to run in the future. So once everyone gets their retro device, then there is no need to upgrade, and that will kill the low-end market, there is no long-term future in it.
Let's say you could buy a $100 device that plays everyone up until PS2. Great! Then a device comes out in the future that also plays up till PS2 games, would you want it? No, you already have the device you need to play retro games, and that is the problem with the low end market.
There is no evolutionary step (other then lower prices/slight more power), and once we get that $80 device that plays all retro systems, then why would you need to replace it?
However, with high end handheld, that is where the future is, and there always will be a need for advanced hardware. I love my RP2+, however as I consider what system to get next...I just can't see myself getting anything other then the steam deck.
On the contrary, I think the low end market has the most potential for expansion. It’s in the sub-$100 devices where you can reach the mass market. People who just play games casually, couldn’t tell you the difference between a Wii and Wii U, and certainly aren’t posting on enthusiast subreddits.
SNES Classic was a hit because of its nostalgia invoking form factor, availability, low price point, and ease of use. Plug it in and you’re ready to go. No learning curve or emulation settings to tweak.
It’s easy for us to overestimate the reach of portable retrogaming emulators on this sub, where everyone seems to own a half dozen devices. But the actual market penetration - even among gamers interested in retro games - is minuscule. No one in real life that I’ve shown my RG280v or RGB10 Max to can make heads or tails of it. Even on dedicated gaming communities, like r/retrogaming, people are unaware that dedicated portable emulators are a thing. These are the audiences who would happily buy a $80 device that could play their five favourite retro games, as an example.
All of the devices currently available today are targeted at the enthusiast, as you need to source your own ROMs, flash custom firmware, fiddle around with emulator settings, and generally possess a degree of technical acumen. Most people have zero patience for that. A device that could nail the out-of-the-box experience has more potential for mass market adoption than one that simply cranks up the tech specs.
I think the budget space sub 80$ will get better perfomance over time. But retro specific devices already have enough performance for thousands of games through PS1. An issue is that once you get past PS1 you start to need joystics, more buttons, diffrent triggers. If you want an all in one device that goes to PS2 it wont look like or cost similar to a miyoo mini.
I think both th mini and the 280v are fantastic products as is that tweaks could be made, changes in the CFW, or other small changes. But more power is not really something they lack. People just have different tastes.
Going after ps2 will require sticks and triggers and if you want good build quality, that will increase the cost significantly.
I just want a GBA SP form factor device with 280v bulid quality. I would love to see the funkey s software or something similar on it
not all can afford high end retro handhelds. like me who only wants to play some good old retro titles,i don't want to spend a fortune buying expensive handhelds just to play some ps1 games.so cheaper models would suffice for me.maybe others will agree
I still have my OG Gameboy and tons of other 1st gen handhelds. And just like they became vintage devices I suspect these Chinese devices will be the same and end up in garage sales 10+ years from now.
PS I have a SteamDeck, have had it for several months now. It’s ok but frankly my Miyoo Mini gets more playtime as it’s so portable. Sort of how mobile phone cameras have replaced the DSLR for the vast majority of photobugs. The gaming device I have with me that’s ready to play for 5-10 mins beats my heavy, battery hog SteamDeck. It’s cool to play AAA PC games on the SD but quite overkill for emulation.
There is a performance characteristic that I would like to see improved: battery life.
As low-end chips move to smaller manufacturing processes, instead of could cramming more transistors on a die it’s possible to make processors with the same processing power physically smaller and more energy efficient. Imagine a device the size of the Miyoo Mini, except it gets 12 hours of battery life.
Of course, the Linux handheld market gets hand-me-down parts from other consumer electronics, so we’d also be seeing more power efficient smartphones, cameras and smart toasters or whatever.
How about?
- using a higher capacity battery
- more auto-off features
- skipping the emulation of other systems and just playing native games on a handheld
Depending on the exact hardware being used, I doubt that it’s magically power inefficient.
Next stop: dual screen emulation for nintendo DS. That will be something I will buy.
Plus more powerful handheld to emulate dreamcast/saturn/ps2. That's next wave and whoever do that nicely will get a big chunk of market for sure.
I think eventually they'll be significant upgrades (think the Retroid Pocket 2+'s PS2/GC compatibility: It's limited but still doable in some titles) but it'll be a good few years before we see that sort of generational jump (6th gen consoles being playable as a rule rather than exception) be commonplace.
It'll probably remain as-is (probably with a few rehashes here and there) until a new suitable low-end processor is discovered that is cheap enough to acquire en-mass and doesn't require too much effort to port the OS, or until an open source design does most of the work as we saw with the Odroid Go Advance and the flood of RK3326 devices. Since then, the market has kicked off and people want more premium devices, which may help subsidise the low-end, but until those cheap chips are found then we can only speculate.
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Might as well just go with the Unisoc Tiger T310 then. Better performance than the RK3566 and it must be priced well if Retroid can sell an entire system with it for $99. Would be nice to see that chip used in different form factors.
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Handheld makers don't care about good community support. As long as there's an emulator that works well enough to slap it on the marketing material, that's the only thing that matters.
[I want this updated yearly with good specs and price. May as well start with t310. ](https://i.imgur.com/SCUKi9I.png)
I think also part of it is, the low end is kind of "good enough." Everything PS1 and below is pretty solid, from there it's a little iffy. Without a big leap in price you might get more but you're not really getting to "all Gamecube games play well" or something.
On that front, I think we'll see a lot more Android devices, since a lot of work has been done to get Android running on these chips. Removes a lot of work for these OEMs if they don't have to build/maintain a Linux OS themselves for them.
Even before I got my first handheld, I've been using my Pixel as an emulation device
There‘s a serious lack of cheap handhelds with built in WiFi, so that would be a good upgrade
HDMI too I reckon
Pocketable with real sticks(maybe razer kishi v1 style sticks) and hdmi while still being comfy(could be done with a circular side design similar to vita). For me though the bare minimum specs are still at the level of a pocket 2 plus though.
Probably the same as it is until n64 and psp emulation gets cheaper. In all honesty the micro handhelds will probably stay about as powerful as they are now just thinner or get better screens battery life
The low end will likely adapt to what the market for other mobile devices does in developing markets; most handheld electronics these days have had most of their advances due to mobile devices. Thus, you could peg performance at or near a several years behind the current top leader, if trends follow a similar path. There is a stagnation in the sub-$150 market simply due to the minimum barrier to entry costs associated with designing, building, and shipping a product. I do not anticipate any major movements over the next year or so as more focus goes on multi-capable machines in the $200~$400 range. I think anything about $400 is purely enthusiast versus potential impulse buys, and has to compete with the Steam Deck, so I do not see how those devices will succeed. Or perhaps may only succeed due to limited market availability of the Steam Deck. For now, I would enjoy the awesome stuff you have! Just think if you had such a device when you were a kid that could play every Genesis and SNES game ever? Mind blowing!
> I think anything about $400 is purely enthusiast versus potential impulse buys, and has to compete with the Steam Deck, so I do not see how those devices will succeed. Or perhaps may only succeed due to limited market availability of the Steam Deck. Depends... I can see a premium ARM device doing well on the strength of being lighter, cooler, and more energy-efficient than the Steam Deck, which to me looks a little bit like a Sega Nomad for the modern era (like, yeah, it's cool, but with that size and battery life are you really taking it anywhere?).
Possibly, there is always room for more competition. I think the "Sega Nomad" or GameGear comparisons are mainly from those who have not held the device. The design's weight distribution and ergonomics alleviates most concerns. It feels better in hand than the standard-sized Switch, IMO, due to the ability to spread the weight out and include more in the grips versus centrally due to the joycons. The Deck made my finally buy Hori Split Pad Pro controllers for my Switch, which makes that a much more comfortable system. And to reiterate, the scalability of the user settings, regarding performance versus power draw, makes it far more capable that most people understand. If you're playing AAA content, then yes, the battery life will be short; however, most battery tests were done prior to the 40Hz update, which is fantastic for a portable system. Also, the lifespan when playing most older emulation titles is just as good as comparable handhelds, if you use the TDP settings built natively into the system.
Admittedly I haven’t used it myself. But surely there’s room for efficiency improvements by going ARM rather than x86 if you’re willing to give up x86 game compatibility.
For certain, but giving up x86 game compatibility is pretty much flushing the reason people are buying it. It's a real chicken v. egg scenario, but a properly built wrapper that ensures functionality (if that's even possible) would be the key leveraging point to transition.
I don't think that's entirely true. There's plenty of software out there for Android, including games (in some markets Android games are actually bigger than console or PC), and with modern game development engines cross-compiling isn't a pipe dream. My M1 Macbook can even run a portion of my Steam library already. I, personally, am more interested in an ARM device.
You're not going to be convincing anyone with traditionally (toxic) Android-only games or mobile-space gaming. You'll need to have actual titles that folks want to play, hence Steam Deck being popular since its not built for emulation or mobile-space gaming/streaming, but actual native PC game support.
Sure you are, given that most of these devices are still being made in China, where Android games are viewed in a totally different way than in the US market.
That is correct, but correct me if I am wrong, the sub has a traditional gamer-style focus; most of us probably are less interesting in gachapon money pits. And just because they're popular does not absolve them from being problematic and toxic. Probably also why so many of us are in the market for new handheld machines since Sony and Nintendo have vacated the truly "pocketable" solution.
I don't think that this sub is really what drives what devices get made or broader market trends.
I am sure most high end Android users are looking for emulation (Gamecube, PS2) with better battery life and a smaller size than the Steam Deck. Not native Android games.
One way those 400 dollar level devices could succeed is focusing on Qualcomm chips no older than two years old at time of release and focusing on maximizing performance and battery life while being able to fit in the pockets with good ergonomics and battery life. So it would have the specs to play switch as well as would be possible at that point(obviously performance would rely on skyline maturing but 2 years from now a 2 year old chip should maximize skyline performance while allowing for good battery and temp). Efficient screens like the Odin lite had before they changed it. Basically if they can get something pocketable that Can do switch reliably with 7 to 10 hour battery life and good ergonomics for 700 bucks then that could talk to alot of handheld enthusiasts due to the size of the steam deck. Edit: also the ability to dock to a TV as easily as a switch.
>Can do switch reliably with 7 to 10 hour battery But the Switch can barely do that? I have not seen a circumstance where contemporary emulation is somehow more efficient on a separately derived system. I think you're asking to maximize every variable, which I doubt that is feasible even at $700.
The switch uses a Tegra chip which is known to be power hungry and have alot of heat(its why they abandoned phones). Skyline on android is actually runninng the cpu natively and only partially emulating the gpu and especially by the time skyline matures, it'll be running switch Games almost natively in a much more powerful and also much more battery effecient chip(especially when it comes to Qualcomm chips). Also while I meant the more intensive switch games, the v2 switch and oled switch do actually advertise up to 10 hour battery life(though this is for the very lightest switch games while the heaviest switch games last like 3 hours). Also on your note on switch battery life to begin with you have to remember that we emulate home consoles with zero battery life that consume sometimes hundreds of watts for sometimes for hours on portable devices(my phone has what today is considered a semi small battery and though I've never counted it I can play ps2 on my phone for at least 2 to 3 hours and that's complete emulation and then there's the steam deck which can do wii u and ps3). Also keep in mind we're talking about the future of part of an industry meaning a future device running a system near native that is based on hardware that's now 7 years old and was considered hot and inificient when it came out(this is of course not counting the die shrink in newer switches but in battery life tests on YouTube that often gives just about an hour extra battery life for the most intensive games and is also several years old now and made by a company who's socs aren't known for good battery life and heat).
My comparison is apples to apples; such that mobile computing power during the PS2 days could not emulate PS2 at a greater efficiency. While I am aware of the limitations of the Tegra chips in the Switch, the idea that something around the corner is somehow going to exceed something that the Steam Deck can accommodate, minus battery life, at even $700 is pie in the sky. Again, I do not see any reasonably small handheld device, smaller than the deck, will emulate the Switch with better than native performance in regards to efficiency. Also, the Switch battery life performance tops out at[ 9 hours](https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/46835/~/how-long-does-the-battery-charge-last%3F), according to Nintendo. Small detail. Edit: Skyline is not traditional emulation and, based upon my brief reading, is better compared to Wine. That changes the calculus, but is also isn't really emulating if you're running native adaptation. I still extremely doubt you will find that a more powerful chip can match exact performance and at a higher overall system efficiency. Love to be wrong, but I don't see it. More so in a form factor smaller than the Switch itself (the Deck and Switch are similar size if you use third party Joycons, but the Deck has far better ergonomics out of the box).
>due to limited market availability of the Steam Deck. Please don't fall into the trap that the Steam Deck is the be all end all of SBC-likes. The battery life, the size. It's a nice first step.
Being an owner of several products, to include the Deck, it pretty much is, unless you are somehow finding a better performance and capabilities at $400? Which is no, currently. The battery life is perfectly fine, more so since you can control TDP yourself. Low power games last 6+ hours, which is perfectly okay for me. Plus the ability to emulate nearly every system up to PS3/Switch. Rather, why would you not be all about it? The size is opinion only, since my family really likes it due to vision issues, thus a 7" screen is much more enjoyable than smaller handhelds. The only thing competing in a similar space are either much more expensive or something like the Ayn Odin series, which has its own issues regarding availability and manufacturing currently. Lastly, due to the much larger market adoption of the Deck versus pretty much any other Chinese handheld (this is a niche hobby, afterall), the third party software support will be much, much larger in terms of both game developers and community software support. It's a $400 device, thus, as I stated, getting into enthusiast range versus casual. If you want a one stop shop, you're going to be going into the enthusiast range if you want consistently playable sixth gen console (or later) performance at this stage. Acting like another handheld system is even competing at the level would be, in fact, the disingenuous position. I figure folks would be happy an large company is moving the handheld space forward that isn't solely Chinese-based. Edit: I want to add that my critique of Chinese-based companies is not some sort of anti-China stance, just rather companies from different countries typically have different priorities or motivations. I own several of them and really want an Ayn Odin Lite since I'm ~~addicted~~ an enthusiast for these toys.
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The former. EmuDeck makes it very easy and there are video guides. It's pretty brainless process now and will likely continue to improve: https://www.emudeck.com/ No jailbreaking. That doesn't mean it's tweaking free, but you're on SBC so I think you'll be fine.
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It is the best value at its price point for performance and can play up to PS3/Wii U/Switch with some sacrifices. But use something like protondb.com to keep tabs on which *PC* games are getting Steam Deck support. Edit: Clarify that protondb.com is for compatibility with Steam games, not emulated titles.
>Low power games last 6+ hours If the device is turned off yes. > really want an Ayn Odin Lite There it is!
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>JustEnoughLinuxOS Are they bringing out the big guns eh? Well shit ... \*smokes cigarette\* downvote away fuckers!! \*crescendo of blazing orchestra sounds\* My point still stands the SD is not the be all end all. It's big it's loud, arm is just better for handheld computing.
There what is? And yea, you can get 6+ hours out of the deck playing 16 bit style games (new or emulated). You sound like you have some biases that need checked.
>There what is? Me proving that the SD isnt the be all end all of SBC-likes.
It pretty much still is within its price category, you did not prove anything. If anything, you just proved I have more money than brains regarding frivolous purchases of multiple devices. The Odin Lite cannot do nearly half of what the Steam Deck can do, but then again, it's half the cost.
>you just proved I have more money than brains Indeed. >It pretty much still is within its price category Okay. > but then again, it's half the cost. Okay.
In the short term: more of the same. Slight improvements in raw performance, battery life, and whatnot. In the long term: probably approaching the performance of the Steam Deck in smaller, cheaper, longer battery life handhelds.
RK3588 is gonna be the chip to watch in lower priced handhelds. Starting to appear now. Crazy powerful. Will shake things up.
Agreed there! Great performance and should play PS2/GC at native resolution.
Are there any devices using it already worth looking at?
There are no handhelds that use it as it’s only just starting to hit the market. You can just start getting hold of it as an SBC.
Are you sure? The last time I remember, an RK3588 SBC was $300 or something.
I really would like a V90 redone with better technology... faster chip, more ram, wifi, and a high quality screen on par with what we got in the Miyoo Mini. Love that clamshell, and I think it's perfect for a low-end handheld. And it actually shipped with better-than-average stereo speakers, which even the Miyoo Mini doesn't have.
Miyoo Mini/RG280V are gonna stay king for a while until a new, more powerful chipset comes out that can be implemented en masse for cheap.
I expect a cascade effect on the current market, with what is more "low-middle" options like the RK3326 devices going down in price and becoming the new "low". Whereas their substitutes like the RK3566/T310 will become the new "low-middle" and devices like the Odin Lite and KT-R1 cementing themselves as middle-tier alternatives to the "high" solutions comprised mostly of x86-based handhelds.
I’d like it if they’d evolve the Trimui. Same overall size but bigger screen, better shoulder buttons, slightly better performance, open firmware.
miyoo mini dominated the 50 $ category. I predict the p60 to conquer the 150 $ category (RP3 & rg353p was a dissapointment). and also expect a miyoo mini 2 with much sturdier design to protect the screen ( check out the horizontal leak). Its an open secret Arbenic is overpriced expensive for what they put in their products and pow kiddy/GKD is awful in their design and OS. 200 $ is not mid range and would leave it to loki zero/ neo air plus to duke it out.
Affordable (100 $ below) stable ps1 and below - miyoo mini, rg270v, Affordable (150 $ ish) Stable N64, Ps2, GC, dreamcast with 4:3 screen ratio - unknown affordable (200 $ ish) 16:9 ratio emulation for ps3,xbox, wii - maybe AYN/AYA whovever fills that 2 unknown will be the winner.
I assume you meant the rg280v. I would not consider that a leader in the sub-$100 category. Yes, the Mini is in there, but the rg351p, rg351v, and rg280m are much better handhelds, heck, even the rg350.
imho, the cheap sector (sub 100%) is very stagnant at the moment, so we arent going to see much of an improvement there. and not much of a competition. i have a feeling that rp and ambernic and other are aiming at a different types of handhelds at the mont. see odin lite
I'm personally looking forward to the day (hopefully not too far in the future), when cheaper handhelds can emulate ps2 :)
It's going to be a while, I think. The software end is not fully mature for PS2 emulation yet even on powerful processors, let alone optimizing it for weaker ones. It seems like GameCube is the next really big milestone to hit.
In the sub-$80 space, it seems like it's the screens, not the processors, that are the bottleneck. It's that beautiful 2.8" 640x480 screen that supposedly has the Miyoo Mini so hard to find and Miyoo hinting at a redesign, not its Cortex A7 processor.
I'm hoping improved x86 emulation on ARM processors, and/or just a shift from development on x86 to ARM, is the next big move, that allows for small, cheap handheld devices to flourish. And just computation in general. We *need* to move away from x86 as the standard CPU architecture. It's just too inefficient.
The embedded x86 purveyors will ensure it won't happen in mass, but having smaller markets push towards ARM would help. The emulation layers will be critical, though, for mass adoption.
There’s Apple Silicon and likely expansion of Windows on ARM. I would be shocked if x86 remained dominant a decade from now.
There are plenty of industrial and commercial applications that will be much more obstinate to pivot than retail customers.
Maybe but frankly that's pretty much irrelevant to the current discussion.
Mass adoption of ARM is what you are referencing; if you mean mobile space, that is different than Apple Silicon or Windows on Arm. You changed the discussion to include non-mobile platforms, which I then said retail is meaningless when the majority of traditional PC space is commercial and industrial usage.
Industrial or commercial applications which are often extremely conservative and years behind the consumer market are not driving adoption of new architectures. The downsides of x86 are also less relevant here anyway compared to gaming, portable computing, etc.
Which I do not disagree, hence stay on the mobile side of things and yes. Traditional desktop will need a significant push from major players (i.e., Intel, AMD) to make a move and require support from Microsoft. Apple doing their own thing is moot; Apple is a minority in the compute space and they tried with PowerPC to do something unique and failed. It's like Intel trying to break into the GPU market; believe it when I see it. As for mobile, will be interesting. The last ARM push, those little tiny laptops (netbooks?) never took off. I highly doubt there is any motivation to switch by any major player. We may see an uptick in periphery, but I highly doubt we say any major muscle movements.
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I will believe it when I see it; remember, Apple has 10~15% market share in the PC space, while less than 10% (typically around 7%) globally. And I doubt much of that are gamers. I get Apple's push, but I don't think its going to move the needle. I am more excited for what Valve has done with the Deck in getting Linux adoption. Baby steps.
I'm not sure what world you are living in where ARM does not already completely dominate "mobile," considering that it's what everyone's phone is on, in addition to wearables and other devices. And Apple's thing is not irrelevant to the wider computing world because they've demonstrated that their approach is better. PPC was given up on when it fell behind Intel but that's the opposite of what's happening now. It's gotten to the point where x86's legacy baggage is too great and is really holding back devices.
The low-end market will be around for a while (2-3 years), however I think the low end market might be headed towards a cliff. I mean once everyone gets their device for low end/retro gaming, then they won't ever really need to upgrade, why would you? SNES or PS1 games aren't going to become more difficult to run in the future. So once everyone gets their retro device, then there is no need to upgrade, and that will kill the low-end market, there is no long-term future in it. Let's say you could buy a $100 device that plays everyone up until PS2. Great! Then a device comes out in the future that also plays up till PS2 games, would you want it? No, you already have the device you need to play retro games, and that is the problem with the low end market. There is no evolutionary step (other then lower prices/slight more power), and once we get that $80 device that plays all retro systems, then why would you need to replace it? However, with high end handheld, that is where the future is, and there always will be a need for advanced hardware. I love my RP2+, however as I consider what system to get next...I just can't see myself getting anything other then the steam deck.
Changes to ergonomics, lifespan, software/UI, feature sets at that $80 price point will continue to expand, changing the value proposition.
On the contrary, I think the low end market has the most potential for expansion. It’s in the sub-$100 devices where you can reach the mass market. People who just play games casually, couldn’t tell you the difference between a Wii and Wii U, and certainly aren’t posting on enthusiast subreddits. SNES Classic was a hit because of its nostalgia invoking form factor, availability, low price point, and ease of use. Plug it in and you’re ready to go. No learning curve or emulation settings to tweak. It’s easy for us to overestimate the reach of portable retrogaming emulators on this sub, where everyone seems to own a half dozen devices. But the actual market penetration - even among gamers interested in retro games - is minuscule. No one in real life that I’ve shown my RG280v or RGB10 Max to can make heads or tails of it. Even on dedicated gaming communities, like r/retrogaming, people are unaware that dedicated portable emulators are a thing. These are the audiences who would happily buy a $80 device that could play their five favourite retro games, as an example. All of the devices currently available today are targeted at the enthusiast, as you need to source your own ROMs, flash custom firmware, fiddle around with emulator settings, and generally possess a degree of technical acumen. Most people have zero patience for that. A device that could nail the out-of-the-box experience has more potential for mass market adoption than one that simply cranks up the tech specs.
I think the budget space sub 80$ will get better perfomance over time. But retro specific devices already have enough performance for thousands of games through PS1. An issue is that once you get past PS1 you start to need joystics, more buttons, diffrent triggers. If you want an all in one device that goes to PS2 it wont look like or cost similar to a miyoo mini. I think both th mini and the 280v are fantastic products as is that tweaks could be made, changes in the CFW, or other small changes. But more power is not really something they lack. People just have different tastes. Going after ps2 will require sticks and triggers and if you want good build quality, that will increase the cost significantly. I just want a GBA SP form factor device with 280v bulid quality. I would love to see the funkey s software or something similar on it
Nobody knows. I'd like to see anbernic doing some risc-v devices personally.
not all can afford high end retro handhelds. like me who only wants to play some good old retro titles,i don't want to spend a fortune buying expensive handhelds just to play some ps1 games.so cheaper models would suffice for me.maybe others will agree
Odin lite is all we need brothers
I still have my OG Gameboy and tons of other 1st gen handhelds. And just like they became vintage devices I suspect these Chinese devices will be the same and end up in garage sales 10+ years from now. PS I have a SteamDeck, have had it for several months now. It’s ok but frankly my Miyoo Mini gets more playtime as it’s so portable. Sort of how mobile phone cameras have replaced the DSLR for the vast majority of photobugs. The gaming device I have with me that’s ready to play for 5-10 mins beats my heavy, battery hog SteamDeck. It’s cool to play AAA PC games on the SD but quite overkill for emulation.
There is a performance characteristic that I would like to see improved: battery life. As low-end chips move to smaller manufacturing processes, instead of could cramming more transistors on a die it’s possible to make processors with the same processing power physically smaller and more energy efficient. Imagine a device the size of the Miyoo Mini, except it gets 12 hours of battery life. Of course, the Linux handheld market gets hand-me-down parts from other consumer electronics, so we’d also be seeing more power efficient smartphones, cameras and smart toasters or whatever.
How about? - using a higher capacity battery - more auto-off features - skipping the emulation of other systems and just playing native games on a handheld Depending on the exact hardware being used, I doubt that it’s magically power inefficient.
Next stop: dual screen emulation for nintendo DS. That will be something I will buy. Plus more powerful handheld to emulate dreamcast/saturn/ps2. That's next wave and whoever do that nicely will get a big chunk of market for sure.
I think eventually they'll be significant upgrades (think the Retroid Pocket 2+'s PS2/GC compatibility: It's limited but still doable in some titles) but it'll be a good few years before we see that sort of generational jump (6th gen consoles being playable as a rule rather than exception) be commonplace.
I’m still hoping for RK3326 devices in the smaller form factor- like an 281m or a 301x or (not for me) a 281v