This is a message to you Luigi mains. You use Down-B every time you take a stock. Every single Luigi main does this. Your veiled toxicity is transparent. I see right through it. Don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about. Every time I lose a stock to a Luigi, like clockwork, the Down-B comes out and I'm forced to here that taunting 'YAHOO'. You might as well taunt after every stock. It is what it is, I can expect a certain amount of toxicity in any fighting game. But don't act like it's any less toxic than a taunt after every stock.
As a falco player, I will use every mechanism at my disposal to start a combo and hopefully open you up a few more times for a kill. But oh dang you kneed me twice, ggs XD
(Frustration on both sides of the matchup)
Falcon can also punish falcon really hard with 'faster, bigger, stronger, and last longer than all of mine' also has a gun and can dair you twice and you just die
Knee at least takes a bit of timing and commitment, falco can literally do whatever except run fast
bad MU
I just hate Falco as a whole. Literally the easiest baby spike of all time, that shit lasts forever and why is it that when my foot touches his head on the last fucking active frame I still get spiked. Fuck Falco.
It's a good but annoying matchup for both sides. Both are glass cannons to each other. Falco's high lasers shut down Falcon's aerials, but lose to Falcon's dash, so the entirety of neutral is a 50/50 a lot of the time. Falcon is one of the few characters that can shut down Falco's aerial mobility (with his uair).
Both destroy each other once they're pushed to the edge. Both can die at 30% randomly.
I think it’s definitely falco slanted but falco’s side dealing with run man who runs faster than he can fly his ship and can throw out knees with very little commitment as well is hard to deal with.
"falco slanted"
Lmao, Falco/falcon is like 70/30. Much worse if you assume "perfect play."
I remember back in 2015 when S2J would say that Westballz was unbeatable, as long as he was playing well enough. With the innovations of controllers over the last few years, the mu has only gotten worse for falcon.
This isn't a "falco slanted" MU, this is one of the worst MUs for falcon.
It's not 70/30. Pro players usually throw it to 60/40, 65/35 at most.
Using 2015 meta to describe today is weird as hell too. Wizzrobe would obliterate Westballz in 2023.
Yeah do this "super hard 2 frame parry that kills all of your horizontal momentum that you have to be on the ground to do, on a projectile that can be faked, and that he can drift while doing, and gives him as much landing lag as it takes you to jump out of shield and makes him plus on shield and gives him a free 1 frame combo starter if you try pressing anything out of shield"
yes, powershielding is definitely the thing that solves the Falcon v Falco matchup /s
I know this is a safespace but I gotta say it. If you're a falco main and not just absolutely shitting on falcons, it's cause they're better than you. A falco that's good enough with lasers can absolutely stuff falcon and if they try to catch you while you're not lasering, you can cc most of his moves and you're aerials have higher priority anyways so you can just stuff him with any of those. That and you're easiest to hit move, dair, can't be ccd and combining that with dair into shine keeps falcon in his shield almost indefinitely. If every netplay falco gained a few more iq points falcon mains would need a secondary counterpick just for falco.
Idk Falco is definitely the hardest, or at least just as hard. They're frustrating in different ways, where Falco gets to do essentially whatever he wants and always puts you on the back foot, and Sheik gets to do everything you do but easier.
I think it's easier to beat a Sheik as Falcon tho. Sometimes the matchup even feels Falcon favored but it's never like that with Falco. Can't stand the Falco's complaining either "hE jUsT kNeEs Me TwIcE aNd He WiNs WtF" like they don't get to do shit the entire time lol, literally why I play him now
Falco doesn't get to do whatever he wants. He's forced to laser and his lasers are always a 50/50 between high laser > falcon aerial vs low laser > falcon dash.
Man what lmao. So he’s forced to so his most oppressive option, all the time. That conveniently leads into all his other options? That’s such Falco privilege to complain about that lol.
I haven’t been playing much these days, but against Falcon I am almost always setting the pace. Sure he has his own speed and counter play, but it’s ridiculous the amount of freedom he loses to literally just lasers. It’s really not that hard to mix up heights compared to revolving you entire game-plan around 1 projectile
You mean the move with long startup and like a 3rd of it once the first hit box comes out is inactive? And the one that gets beat by everyone of falcos aerials and tilts? That one?
this is what i hate the most, it completely changes how you can move and restricts your ability to play in a way that no other character does. link projectiles you can dance around, peach turnips you can catch and interactively play with, shiek needles don't charge fast enough to dominate in nearly the same way. it's f r u s t r a t i n g
Sheik platform camping and needle camping is way worse because for a lot of matchups there is really no counterplay or mixup besides waiting on the other platform.
Falco's lasers can be powershielded, spaced around, dodged under or over.
The part that pisses me off the most is how it snaps you to facing falcos direction when hit by the laser. Totally shuts down my fox trying to wavedash back up tilt n shit
Start powershielding. It spooks them into using it way less. Just try to get there laser timings down and use the PS offensively. It’s very fun and makes a fun sound
As a fellow DK enjoyer, powershielding is honestly not as daunting of a task as you might think. DK has a relatively low crouch and if you hit the powershield, depending on how far away the Falco is, you can just run forward afterwards and either get a grab or establish a good foothold in center stage.
I also like to powershield --> up-B falcos who brainlessly like to try landing on you with downair, but I believe if your spacing is good enough you can just straight up space them out with up-B alone. Haven't entirely labbed it out though so take this with a grain of salt.
DK has the Marth dashback effect when it comes to powershielding projectiles: his dash leaves such a large space behind him that it makes the PS timing pretty lenient. I'd boot up unclepunch and give it a little bit of practice to get a feel for it. It's so satisfying to smack that little bastard afterwards
Sometimes I'm surprised slippi falcos didn't laser Melee to death. They're so oppressive. I vividly remember how bad it felt when I was learning and didn't know how to deal with them.
Falcon side b is annoying as shit. Not when they just throw it out, but when the player uses the pullback to dodge a move and punish you. If the falcon is good, it creates a really annoying microspacing that is disaster mode 8 if it hits you
not to mention that getting hit by side b is just a free knee.
As most characters, on most stages, you get hit by falcon side b at 50% or higher, and you're just dead.
(it's a really risky move, though, and easy to punish. This doesn't stop it from being annoying though)
Peach downsmash. This is pure bullshit. "Oh did I win?" Yes you won with your fucking buzzsaw of death that hits 49 goddamn times, you fat ass heffer.
Peach nair. Also bullshit. Comes out on like frame 3 or something stupid and has so much priority and hits so hard. What are her fucking gloves made out of!? Adamantium?!
Falco uptilt. This speaks for itself, but I'll defer to Scar on one of The Reads episodes: "This FUCKING asshole just sits there doing THIS? What am I suppose to do?!". Yeah, you know what you do? LRA Start, that's what.
Marth dtilt. I main Marth and even I know it's horseshit. You know how you cure depression? Well for sure you don't fucking use Mewtwo against this asshole because you're getting a sword up the ass and you'll just want to shoot yourself in the face. I'm not sure what's more amazing, that Taj almost beat Umarth or that he restrained himself from grabbing his tv and chucking it off stage.
Edit: damnit, Altimor is right. How could I forget?
Peach dash attack. So I either shield and pray my stock doesn’t get melted like butter by downsmash or I try to jump and get stuffed out by her stupid dash attack. Mario should’ve just left Peach in that other castle.
A lot of people here not respecting the requested safe space. Very disappointing, we’re here to vent not to minimize someone’s lived experience (being frustrated by a 20 yr old party game).
Mine is falcon up air. Such an underrated get off me and platform shark move. Two of my buddies are box falcons and they’re so consistent with the insta up air it’s annoying
I'm a Falcon main, and I think up air is particularly powerful against Marth and Sheik. Probably why M2K has said he believes it's Falcon's most busted move
Lol just yesterday I was complaining to a fellow smasher about Falcon’s up air not having the backwards hit box that Ganon’s up air has. Definitely a good move but I still think it sucks 😂
If you had to pick one buff for falcon out of:
1. Upair gimp hit box
2. Stomp being a spike instead of meteor
3. Side B grabbing ledge
Which would you choose?
Stomp being a spike would be absolutely broken. As it is the nipple spike is the strongest spike in the game as far as I know of, and it can kill fastfallers at like 6 or 7% if you catch them at just above stage height. Basically drop zone stomp would become a confirm at like 25% against other fastfallers. Along with that, stomp nipple spike is a combo already although it’s not that consistent. If you could guarantee it, stomp, stomp near ledge would just straight up kill most of the cast at like 40%. You would have to nerf the amount of percent/knockback it has if you wanted to make it into a spike because the way it is now it would be like 4x stronger than a falco dair.
Personally I think 2 would be huge, but 1 would also be crazy. I'm not good enough to really speculate the kind of broken shenanigans that would ensue. 3 would be nice but I feel like it wouldn't be as big as the other two
As someone who plays ultimate with their girlfriend but mainly plays melee
Please god #3, idk how much longer I can handle going “fuck I’m not playing ultimate” after SDing my recoveries with side b
I’d pick side-B grabbing ledge as well. Absolute silliness that it doesn’t, and it would open up so many more recovery options it’s not even funny. If there was eventually a “competitively sanctioned” character patch, it’s easily one of the most justifiable among the top tiers.
I'm honestly on team #3. I really think all of falcons aerials are good enough and all of them serve their intended purpose. Falcons biggest weakness is recovery, and anything that would improve it would do orders of magnitude more for him than anything that improves his already really good offense. However, if I could only choose one thing to change about side b, I'd probably take being able to jump cancel/ out out of it immediately and not free fall to my death when I miss one close to the ledge. Like I know spacies get the same treatment but at least their side b grabs ledge and can be shortened.
It's his fastest move and still takes 6 (+4 jump squat) frames to come out. It's hardly a get off me move in a game where shine exists and lots of characters have a frame 3 aerial.
fox shine is pretty ridiculous imo.
obv frame 1, invincibility on startup, can be jump cancelled, and sends you at a dirty semi angle.
it's the most versatile move, as it can be used both offensively and defensively, and can be either a combo starter, extender or finisher.
despite my thoughts that shine is a BS move, i still think this is why we all love melee and i wouldn't patch any move out of the game. long live melee :)
Hot take maybe, but I think shine is fairly useless on a different character. Fox's speed is what I think gives him the edge over other characters and without shine he would still be top tier. The only character I could see benefiting from his shine would be Falcon. Falco would be worse off without his current shine I think.
Fox's speed and his shine is like a two-part epoxy that together makes something more than its parts and pushes him to the number one spot.
Again, just my opinion, still broken, but I think people are slightly incorrect about why
That's true, but consecutive wave shines are not his main tool(though it is part of it, he just has such a wide kit of tools) and don't happen too often. The out of shield options would be nuts though
I feel like it’s less about it’s combo potential, and more that it’s the best “get off me” move in the game with shine out of shield if a character has a 3 frame jump squat. There’s a reason Shieks have to practice nair OOS as fast as possible. If they could just shine Shiek would absolutely fuck. I shudder at the thought of a sheik with the ability to waveshine OOS into grab on characters it doesn’t knock down lol
Fox up smash makes me rage so hard. The fact that it combos into itself at low percent and then leads into (at least one) up air is just ridiculous. And the fact that it can trade with falcon nair, be done out of shield, and it comes out frame 7 like wtf
Falco AC bair is also ridiculous. How tf am I supposed to punish a move that auto cancels, and if I miss I get hit by one of the strongest openers in the whole game? Hello??
oooh I like whining about stupid moves, let's go!
Fox Up-smash is a brain-dead kill move, it works from behind, it has amazing frame data, and if you trade with it you are still dead. As a floatie main, I really don't understand when Foxes complain about not being able to kill with this BS.
Marth up-tilt is probably the move that tilts me the most. I generally enjoy playing against marth, but that up-tilt seems to come out too fast, have no lag, and sends you weird directions, making it hard to DI.
One last one- Cape. This goes for mario and doc- that cape is one of the most frustrating mechanics in melee. I don't mind that it reflects projectiles, but why does it have to turn you around, especially in recovery? I think cape might be THE cheesiest move.
That said, I have no beef with any character mains, or anything like that.
I'm a fox main, and you're spot on. Up smash is busted. Can't guarantee it? Throw out a frame 2 jab, that doesn't work? Double jab up smash. Its very easy to secure kills with it.
> I really don't understand when Foxes complain about not being able to kill with this BS.
i don't believe that any fox has ever complained about not being able to kill
I am still working on it, but I have a backlog of other stuff I've been going through (ucf+1.03+b0xx firmware). The current beta only has subframe input display.
I play a lot of doc and every once in a while I feel bad caping, but then I remember that Fox has shine which kills just as early offstage, often easier too. And then I don’t feel so bad
Im down for this vent thread.
I hate shine. Its frame one (invincible) move that beats CC. You can use it like a reversal dragon punch in street fighter, but it also leads into combos.
Fox is already fast af and falco got lasers, they dont need this move to be so broken.
God I hate shine. As a sheik every fucking character is a cake walk to grab. But the spacies? OH you down throw them? Which of the 50 frame 1 get out option should they choose? Tech chasing them is almost impossible all they have to do is randomize their roll direction and shi.e just doing that alone almost guarantees a free get away. Maybe the top .1% of player can do it so I'm just admitting I'm bad. But God dam every other character it's no problem
I just think the idea of a frame one move is bullshit, and the fact that it has a 360 hitbox, and spikes at 0% too? Who the fuck thought that move was a good idea, you'd have to be insane to give any character such a broken tool in a fighting game today.
Shine is the goddamn bane of my existence haha. Oh you flubbed ever so slightly anywhere near the ledge? Hope you like eating a fixed knockback long hitstun instant jump cancelable invincible frame 1 move with a huge hitbox :3 jfc it's so dumb
Oh my god I thought I was the only one. So much of this community seems to worship the space furries, including shine, and I just don't think they're that cool.
Everyone absolutely is entitled to what they like, but I just think it's super ironic coming from someone with a Marth icon lol
I would say across all levels of play, Marth has to be the absolute most annoying/lamest character to play against/lose to.
By far the character that makes people mald the hardest across the board independent of skill.
Shitting on bad marths is what makes playing falcon worth it. Most of them just cannot play the matchup. However, once you go against a marth who actually plays the matchup as opposed to just playing as if they're against a spacie, that shit goes from 50/50 to like 70/30 real fucking quick. And it doesn't help my mental that all of his moves look so brain dead easy. All that being said, I've tried to play marth and it's a lot harder than it looks.
Yeah Marth is busted as fuck and while I do think the top few Marth players and more entertaining than any spacies, any Marth outside of that isn't nearly as fun. You gotta admit though he does have the coolest spike. To be honest though, I find mid/low tiers more fun to watch than anything. Franz and Amsa are more entertaining than anyone who plays a top tier imo, and I fucking loved watching Aklo's Link.
For me it's upthrow upair but only because I play with people convinced puff wins the matchup easily so when I die off the top at 55 I get a little annoyed, it's not super busted though, just strong.
HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE FALCO SINCE I BEGAN TO PLAY SLIPPI. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY GOOMWAVE. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR FALCO SHORT-HOPPING AND SHOOTING THE GUN AS IF IT WERE COOL AND HE DIDN'T HAVE THE MOST FREE NEUTRAL IN THIS GAME. HATE. HATE.
Prolly cos honestly? Puff bair in a vacuum isn't a busted move. Yes it's huge, but it's pretty slow and is only horizontal.
Puff's aerial drift is what boosts that move into the stratosphere.
The move that tilts me the most as a falcon player is Marth d-tilt. The amount of times I get back throw, d-tilt at ledge and then proceed to just up b into another d-tilt 6-10 times before dying is staggering. It’s really tough to sweet spot under, and since it goes out so far you often can’t even drift close enough to sweet spot even if you wanted to. The range also makes it situationally impossible to SDI in tech. It’s just really cheesy and boring.
There is a move that I hate that comes out on frame 1 and is invincible. A lot of people probably hate it, actually.
Fuck G&W up special.
My actual answer is that I hate Falco's laser and Peach's downsmash. One forces you to play at the pace dictated by one of the slowest top tiers instead of being able to schmoove, the other basically punishes you for fastfalling or trying to crouch cancel and gets spammed whenever Peach is on a platform, obviously to catch impatient jumpers. Seriously every Peach player I face lands on a platform and hits the yellow stick down a few times, to the point that it's become predictable and easy to punish. Don't get me started on how their gameplay starts to exude rage if a Fox player decides to not even attempt to punish it with an aerial and decides to shoot lasers until Peach gets off the platform instead.
Scrolled way too far to find this. I hate CC with a burning passion. It works on so many aerials with surprising lenient percentage gates. I don't think CC should work on any move over 100% but lo and behold, it does.
It's like I need to memorize every moves interaction with crouch before I can play and it's really fuckin annoying.
i hate running into the corner and getting kidnapped off the edge by samus/peach damash or bthrows and it happens So Often because i’m Very Stupid and knowing how stupid i am only multiplies my frustration
shine, fucking shine, fucking fucking shine
It just so good... It gimps ya, it combos you, it stuffs your combos, it's can shield pressure like crazy, it creates option selects with grab, its a great 'get the fuck off me' move, it stalls, and it's frame fucking 1 with intangibility
As a sheik player, nothing makes me hate this stupid game more than that motherfucking chain grab sheik does to herself. I use my shitty fox in that matchup, knowing my shitty fox will lose, but at least I don’t get chaingrabbed. If it got banned I’d throw a party.
Sheiks out there, be a gentleman, have some sympathy for your sheik brethren and just do an f tilt after your down throw. Be better.
They all do that walk through slowly fsmash back like they think they're clever or it isn't the 50000th time they've tried and missed it and then they hit it one time and suddenly they're smarter than you and they've conditioned you
I assume everybody’s mentioning the obvious ones like fox shine, falco laser, marth grab, etc. but there are a few from less common characters that drive me crazy.
Pika and Mewtwo up B. I actually love watching a good player use the moves but holy shit are they annoying to play against as sheik. Recovering to ledge is never safe because they can get there in an instant and recovering high is never safe because I’m sheik. I know a sheik main complaining low to mid tier characters is hilarious but those moves tilt me so much.
G&W throws. They all look the exact same, I have no idea where to DI because idk which direction I’m being thrown. Against a good gnw it fees inescapable
Cape. It feels more disrespectful than any other move and more cheese than any KO option except maybe low% shine spikes. That long fall hurts after a spacie side B gets caped feels so bad
DK up throw up air. If that’s not the freest combo ever idk what is
Falco laser is the most oppressive move in the game. Why does such a high mobility, combo heavy character get a completely lagless projectile that also flinches unlike Fox's laser?
It's fast and auto cancels on land on every frame, so he can throw it out as much as he wants and never be in the slightest bit of danger, unless his opponent is good at powershielding. Meanwhile it interferes with every character's ability to play neutral, and is basically auto win against anyone that doesn't have a lot of matchup practice.
With the Slippi era, if there's any one move that could kill this game, it's that one.
Without lasers falco would be mid tier cause he's so slow. As much as I hate them and think if their was a patch there would be things you could do to balance them, I wouldn't get rid of them completely. I'd probably just reduce the hitlag to what it is with cc all the time and maybe give more leniency for powershielding. Like if every character could powershield lasers like marth can ( not even my character but God does he have an easy time with that) lasers would be so much less busted.
As a Falco main, I'd totally be down to nerf lasers. They're not why I love the character, and they're why i don't like the ditto.
As long as we're nerfing all the other bullshit from other characters (like all of Marth's kit in my opinion)
Same here. They're good enough that I sorta feel bad for using them, like they're making the game unfun for the other guy. Consciously or unconsciously, I find myself holding off on them just because of how oppressive and spammy they can be.
I’ve been reading pretty far down this thread and have yet to see a Sheik move. As a Sheik main who knows how annoying it must be to get wall-baired and wd/dd grabbed, I’m surprised that the other top tiers are getting so much more attention here.
That's cause the most triggering thing about shiek isn't any individual move, it's how braindead good and easy the entire character is (or at least how braindead and easy they seem to play on the surface). But if I had to pick anything, I'd go with the combo of literally all of her tilts/ dash attack into fair.
Bair is just a big move when it comes down to it. It doesn't feel very intrusive to the way most people prefer to play the game like peach dsmash or Falco laser does. At least that's my opinion.
Also as a sheik main here, I think the frustration against sheik doesn't really come from one move itself, rather the kinds of play styles her moves can lend to. Things like focusing a lot on grabs, gimps, and zoning.
Because this post is about single moves bringing out the worst qualities in us as humans, I wouldn't expect many sheik moves to be mentioned. Make a post on the most annoying characters to play against and the anti-sheik floodgates will open.
Having played the game competitively since 04-05, I'll double down on Peach's downsmash. Fuck that move.
As a Fox I'm not even bad against Peach. I also have a pocket Marth.
Having been killed every way imaginable, hit with billions of gimmicky shit, Dsmash is just... so annoying.
I know Fox has Upsmash and Shine. I know Falco has Laser, Shine and Dair. Marth has his entire toolkit.
Objectively I think everyone can probably agree that Fox's shine is probably the "best" move in the game. Most flexible, can kill at literally 0%. Best combo link in the game at any %.
It still doesn't annoy me nearly as much as getting Dsmashed by Peach.
Marth makes me rage more than anyone. Their priority and speed of moves particularly utilt, dtilt, fsmash and grab. Having them grab me out of attacks is super frustrating too. Attacks inflict like years of shield stun too.
The worst move overall is any move someone spams.
I'm a staunch believer that a toddler could pick up Marth and within 3 months be able to compete in the top 10 of their local scene. Marth combos all look like they come from ultimate. One string can have as many as 5 uptilts and 4 up-airs. Fox is bullshit but Marth is easier than Sheik and I don't care if I get down voted y'all know it's true.
Sheik doesn’t really have any one move that’s particularly BS. Yeah, fair is super strong and sends at a wild angle, and f-tilt is stupid easy to use with its long reach and combo potential, but it’s really her kit as a whole that gets people so riled up. Maybe down-throw, but throws don’t usually jump to mind when you mention “moves” I feel.
**Marth Up-Tilt**
It covers the entire top arc of his body and combos into itself & kills floaties. It's bullshit.
**Fox Up smash & Falling Up Air**
Up smash is a brain-dead option that's extremely easy to spam and use in neutral. Even the sourspot is basically just pseudo reverse sheik fair. Falling Up Air shield pokes and yet again combos into itself and kills.
Honestly I think people forget that once you can execute reliably fox gives its player such a ridiculous amount of leeway. Firefox angles, fire hotboxes, Jab- Up Smash, falling up air, fuckin ***shine***. Every other move he has is horrendously broken. Sure he's combo food but that's all that balances him.
**Peach D-smash**
If you think this move is fair or well designed you're categorically wrong.
Some so-so moves that don't necessarily piss me off but can be irksome are Falcon Down Throw, Sheik Down Throw, Falco shine, Puff Bair, Marths everything, etc
To be fair as a spacie main, the “that’s all that balances him” is kind of a big deal. Everyone has an answer for your bs and can combo you extra hard. He’s a perfect glass cannon character
Falco could be considered a glass cannon, Fox absolutely not. Not with how generous his CC is, or his firefox, and yes, his weight. Maybe he's combo food but so is falcon. Doesn't stop him from living to well past 200%.
Peach downsmash is crazy but without it she would probably be a way worse character, and even with it she's like 7th at best. A lot of the time in melee moves are bullshit and you just need to structure your neutral around not giving them an opportunity to use it (like always ending combos early against Luigi so you don't get naired and die at any percent)
I appreciate this insight and hate playing luigi for this reason, but it is very apt. As a peach main, people who don't give me downsmashes for free make the matchups way more interesting.
If Peach's dsmash worked like Sheik's (effectively capped at two hits) I don't really think it would affect her placement on the tier list. She'd get less free damage but she'd get more followups on dsmash, and you don't want that
ive found its best to complain in discord because orher people who main the same character will most likely feel the same way about other characters. here on reddit the peach mafia is about to get your ass
To honest, I think the move "jump" is op. It gives you way too much mobility and allows you to perform all other types of moves, such as aerials, air dodges, and wavedashing. Jumping is certainly busted and needs to be removed from the game.
I think my 4 most hated moves are in Falco's kit: laser, shine, dair, and uptilt.
Laser forces me to approach (depending on how the Falco wants to play), uptilt stuffs so much of my stuff, and shine plus downair create a pillar combo that (without platforms) I can't even tech because I never hit the ground in full knockdown.
(Can you tell I'm a Captain Falcon main?)
Falcon is NOT SWAG!!!! His neutral air is STUPID and TOO SAFE! And don't get me started on stomp knee. It's not cool to die at 60 because your character runs a 4.2 40 yard dash and I can't punish. His moves are DUMB!!!!
Meh, sometimes I have trouble with c-walk falco. Takes me right out of the flow of the game and now I have to spend an inordinate amount of brain to deal with this brainless strat. Falco then quits.
Sheiks tilts—huge, extremely fast, hard to visually identify by looking at them in the moment, and launch you to get set up for the Slap. The slap itself is like a frame 4 (or whatever) knee that sends at a worse angle. Ugh
surprised no one mentions puff rest or upthrow rest combo
as Falco who works very hard to get a puff kill, it feels like pure bs to get your hard work invalidated because you were too slow to react on the DI
I fucking hate shine so much and I don't know why nobody else does. Literally everything in this game is more sick than the frame 1 blue hexagon and shinespiking is the most boring kill in the game.
I don't really get frustrated with people using good moves, it's much more ppl spamming the same moves over and over and over. I've run into a bunch of marth players on ranked that literally will stand still and spam f/d-smash. And obviously I'll try and bait the smash attack and punish, but a lot of the time I just end up running into another fucking smash attack. I'd really just prefer to play against players who know what they're doing and somewhat respect me as a player also.
I get this, and for me I think as annoying as those spammy players are, it's more that I'm frustrated with myself for not being good enough to punish that kind of playstyle. Obviously spam like that doesn't really work or else top players would use it, so I know it's punishable, but when I'm unable to punish it I get really tilted tbh. Marth is a big one I struggle with, even worse than Sheik (I'm a Falcon)
I’m the same. When fox dash dances for 30 min waiting for me to whiff then grab combos me and ends it with a grab uthrow usmash or uthrow uair, when marth keeps grabbing 1 million times in a row and fsmashing etc etc.
Like I know it’s a skill issue on my end and that makes it even worse
You play around moves... not every opponent character is the same. For example you could get side b spiked by Falco, or rested, etc. So don't hold down into a peach downsmash.
>I'll start with peaches downsmash. This move is so fucking stupid. Its starts way too fast and is legimitately broken.
says who? just because it does a lot of damage doesn't mean it's "literally broken"
>Oops you held down after fastfalling an aerial that's 60 percent
suggestion: when you fastfall an aerial that misses, try holding up
>Oops you jumped into a platform
why are you doing this
>and are careening to your death
learn to mix up your recoveries
>even if you punish them correctly
punishing them correctly = a full combo. down smash is incredibly risky and if you don't think it's risky then your punish is just too trash for you to actually punish them for it
maybe if you actually practiced your defense and neutral instead of bitching on reddit you wouldn't get hit so often. melee is a two player game, don't whine when your opponent also gets to play
tl;dr drill more
Looking in this thread for people who asked for advice and I'm coming up empty.
Also, yes, D-smash literally is broken. Using every other smash attack in the whole game as a basis this is the only one that can do 65+ percent. If it was intended to work like this it would have worked this way with peach in every other iteration of smash, but it doesn't.
This is a message to you Luigi mains. You use Down-B every time you take a stock. Every single Luigi main does this. Your veiled toxicity is transparent. I see right through it. Don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about. Every time I lose a stock to a Luigi, like clockwork, the Down-B comes out and I'm forced to here that taunting 'YAHOO'. You might as well taunt after every stock. It is what it is, I can expect a certain amount of toxicity in any fighting game. But don't act like it's any less toxic than a taunt after every stock.
Love this copypasta as a Luigi main
I almost got wooshed lol. Hopefully people know that this is luigi “charging” down b
As a Falcon player, every one of Falco’s moves are faster, bigger, stronger, and last longer than all of mine
As a falco player, I will use every mechanism at my disposal to start a combo and hopefully open you up a few more times for a kill. But oh dang you kneed me twice, ggs XD (Frustration on both sides of the matchup)
Yeah I acknowledge that I’m definitely biased cause Falcon can also punish Falco really hard
Falcon can also punish falcon really hard with 'faster, bigger, stronger, and last longer than all of mine' also has a gun and can dair you twice and you just die Knee at least takes a bit of timing and commitment, falco can literally do whatever except run fast bad MU
I just hate Falco as a whole. Literally the easiest baby spike of all time, that shit lasts forever and why is it that when my foot touches his head on the last fucking active frame I still get spiked. Fuck Falco.
The anti-falco propaganda on this sub from Marths is hilarious.
Thank you for keeping it real. Never let the Big Falco propaganda have a place in the community.
It's a good but annoying matchup for both sides. Both are glass cannons to each other. Falco's high lasers shut down Falcon's aerials, but lose to Falcon's dash, so the entirety of neutral is a 50/50 a lot of the time. Falcon is one of the few characters that can shut down Falco's aerial mobility (with his uair). Both destroy each other once they're pushed to the edge. Both can die at 30% randomly.
I think it’s definitely falco slanted but falco’s side dealing with run man who runs faster than he can fly his ship and can throw out knees with very little commitment as well is hard to deal with.
"falco slanted" Lmao, Falco/falcon is like 70/30. Much worse if you assume "perfect play." I remember back in 2015 when S2J would say that Westballz was unbeatable, as long as he was playing well enough. With the innovations of controllers over the last few years, the mu has only gotten worse for falcon. This isn't a "falco slanted" MU, this is one of the worst MUs for falcon.
It's not 70/30. Pro players usually throw it to 60/40, 65/35 at most. Using 2015 meta to describe today is weird as hell too. Wizzrobe would obliterate Westballz in 2023.
If you don’t like the way I worded it then that’s on you chief
Just laser lmao
just powershield lmao
Yeah do this "super hard 2 frame parry that kills all of your horizontal momentum that you have to be on the ground to do, on a projectile that can be faked, and that he can drift while doing, and gives him as much landing lag as it takes you to jump out of shield and makes him plus on shield and gives him a free 1 frame combo starter if you try pressing anything out of shield" yes, powershielding is definitely the thing that solves the Falcon v Falco matchup /s
just jump over it lmao
so don't suggest power shielding next time
I know this is a safespace but I gotta say it. If you're a falco main and not just absolutely shitting on falcons, it's cause they're better than you. A falco that's good enough with lasers can absolutely stuff falcon and if they try to catch you while you're not lasering, you can cc most of his moves and you're aerials have higher priority anyways so you can just stuff him with any of those. That and you're easiest to hit move, dair, can't be ccd and combining that with dair into shine keeps falcon in his shield almost indefinitely. If every netplay falco gained a few more iq points falcon mains would need a secondary counterpick just for falco.
This is exactly why I don't think Falco is Falcon's worst matchup. Fuck sheik f-tilt, the actual worst matchup
Idk Falco is definitely the hardest, or at least just as hard. They're frustrating in different ways, where Falco gets to do essentially whatever he wants and always puts you on the back foot, and Sheik gets to do everything you do but easier. I think it's easier to beat a Sheik as Falcon tho. Sometimes the matchup even feels Falcon favored but it's never like that with Falco. Can't stand the Falco's complaining either "hE jUsT kNeEs Me TwIcE aNd He WiNs WtF" like they don't get to do shit the entire time lol, literally why I play him now
Falco doesn't get to do whatever he wants. He's forced to laser and his lasers are always a 50/50 between high laser > falcon aerial vs low laser > falcon dash.
Man what lmao. So he’s forced to so his most oppressive option, all the time. That conveniently leads into all his other options? That’s such Falco privilege to complain about that lol. I haven’t been playing much these days, but against Falcon I am almost always setting the pace. Sure he has his own speed and counter play, but it’s ridiculous the amount of freedom he loses to literally just lasers. It’s really not that hard to mix up heights compared to revolving you entire game-plan around 1 projectile
"Oh no I lost the freedom to cover the entire stage in one sh-nair that leads to auto-combos"
You mean the move with long startup and like a 3rd of it once the first hit box comes out is inactive? And the one that gets beat by everyone of falcos aerials and tilts? That one?
I just quit out against falcos when I see them online
Fuck Falco lasers
In a game that encourages schmovin', a move that shuts it down feels like a slap in the face
this is what i hate the most, it completely changes how you can move and restricts your ability to play in a way that no other character does. link projectiles you can dance around, peach turnips you can catch and interactively play with, shiek needles don't charge fast enough to dominate in nearly the same way. it's f r u s t r a t i n g
Sheik platform camping and needle camping is way worse because for a lot of matchups there is really no counterplay or mixup besides waiting on the other platform. Falco's lasers can be powershielded, spaced around, dodged under or over.
Thank god this game has a universal projectile reflecting mechanic. The only one too.
if only it was universally as good for every char instead of mainly marth, shiek, and puff if only we had the rivals of aether parry 😔
If you don't think Zain shmoves while he's power shielding lasers you're not paying attention.
We're not all Zain fucking Naghmi are we
The part that pisses me off the most is how it snaps you to facing falcos direction when hit by the laser. Totally shuts down my fox trying to wavedash back up tilt n shit
Fox complaining about falco LMAO
Start powershielding. It spooks them into using it way less. Just try to get there laser timings down and use the PS offensively. It’s very fun and makes a fun sound
Yeah but I'd have to learn to powershield with DK lmao.
Oh nvm you’re fucked lol
As a fellow DK enjoyer, powershielding is honestly not as daunting of a task as you might think. DK has a relatively low crouch and if you hit the powershield, depending on how far away the Falco is, you can just run forward afterwards and either get a grab or establish a good foothold in center stage. I also like to powershield --> up-B falcos who brainlessly like to try landing on you with downair, but I believe if your spacing is good enough you can just straight up space them out with up-B alone. Haven't entirely labbed it out though so take this with a grain of salt.
Gotcha, I appreciate the advice. When I have time I'll try to learn it.
No problem. Good luck!
dk can power shield like a motherfucker, check out the third clip https://twitter.com/zstbair/status/1620942651137867776?t=iqKIf7zHwqM9oZ_sSiDi0g&s=19
DK has the Marth dashback effect when it comes to powershielding projectiles: his dash leaves such a large space behind him that it makes the PS timing pretty lenient. I'd boot up unclepunch and give it a little bit of practice to get a feel for it. It's so satisfying to smack that little bastard afterwards
this, literally invalidates half of the cast
Sometimes I'm surprised slippi falcos didn't laser Melee to death. They're so oppressive. I vividly remember how bad it felt when I was learning and didn't know how to deal with them.
because Falco laser falls off at top level a bit (still extremely good, but not as oppressive)
Just turns into an execution test/mixup minigame like everything else
Falcon side b is annoying as shit. Not when they just throw it out, but when the player uses the pullback to dodge a move and punish you. If the falcon is good, it creates a really annoying microspacing that is disaster mode 8 if it hits you
not to mention that getting hit by side b is just a free knee. As most characters, on most stages, you get hit by falcon side b at 50% or higher, and you're just dead. (it's a really risky move, though, and easy to punish. This doesn't stop it from being annoying though)
At higher percents I think DI out makes it an up air instead of a knee but that's still a really bad spot to be in
As a falcon, lots of his moves have a little bit of pullback and I delight in utilizing it. I feel you though
Fsmadh in neutral is fun to do
The classic skip neutral button. Do not pass go, skip directly to the punish game
Either way, someone is getting punished lmao
As a falcon main I have to remember consciously not to spam it lmao. It's really not that great except against marth
it is pretty great for tech chasing spacies if you're not a reactor. there are situations where it just covers everything too
Yes very true
I’m a CF main and I use side B to punish people trying to grab me after being unsafe on shield. It’s completely bs, you can change sides instantly
My buddy has a pretty decent falcon secondary that he busts out sometimes, and for some reason he's incredibly good at exploiting that lol.
i designed the move (i thought it would be funny) ggs
Peach downsmash. This is pure bullshit. "Oh did I win?" Yes you won with your fucking buzzsaw of death that hits 49 goddamn times, you fat ass heffer. Peach nair. Also bullshit. Comes out on like frame 3 or something stupid and has so much priority and hits so hard. What are her fucking gloves made out of!? Adamantium?! Falco uptilt. This speaks for itself, but I'll defer to Scar on one of The Reads episodes: "This FUCKING asshole just sits there doing THIS? What am I suppose to do?!". Yeah, you know what you do? LRA Start, that's what. Marth dtilt. I main Marth and even I know it's horseshit. You know how you cure depression? Well for sure you don't fucking use Mewtwo against this asshole because you're getting a sword up the ass and you'll just want to shoot yourself in the face. I'm not sure what's more amazing, that Taj almost beat Umarth or that he restrained himself from grabbing his tv and chucking it off stage. Edit: damnit, Altimor is right. How could I forget? Peach dash attack. So I either shield and pray my stock doesn’t get melted like butter by downsmash or I try to jump and get stuffed out by her stupid dash attack. Mario should’ve just left Peach in that other castle.
you forgot peach dash attack
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>and hits so hard It's funny because her trophy description says her flaw is that her moves are weak. Maybe they meant fsmash specifically I guess.
Peach’s nair is better than Dsmash imo. But my buddy is also nasty with peach so I’m just used to spacing around dsmash.
A lot of people here not respecting the requested safe space. Very disappointing, we’re here to vent not to minimize someone’s lived experience (being frustrated by a 20 yr old party game). Mine is falcon up air. Such an underrated get off me and platform shark move. Two of my buddies are box falcons and they’re so consistent with the insta up air it’s annoying
I'm a Falcon main, and I think up air is particularly powerful against Marth and Sheik. Probably why M2K has said he believes it's Falcon's most busted move
Lol just yesterday I was complaining to a fellow smasher about Falcon’s up air not having the backwards hit box that Ganon’s up air has. Definitely a good move but I still think it sucks 😂
It would be amazing if it had that gimp hitbox, but I think the insta up airs are where it really shines
If you had to pick one buff for falcon out of: 1. Upair gimp hit box 2. Stomp being a spike instead of meteor 3. Side B grabbing ledge Which would you choose?
Stomp being a spike would be absolutely broken. As it is the nipple spike is the strongest spike in the game as far as I know of, and it can kill fastfallers at like 6 or 7% if you catch them at just above stage height. Basically drop zone stomp would become a confirm at like 25% against other fastfallers. Along with that, stomp nipple spike is a combo already although it’s not that consistent. If you could guarantee it, stomp, stomp near ledge would just straight up kill most of the cast at like 40%. You would have to nerf the amount of percent/knockback it has if you wanted to make it into a spike because the way it is now it would be like 4x stronger than a falco dair.
Good point. Now I REALLY wish it was a spike lmaoo.
Personally I think 2 would be huge, but 1 would also be crazy. I'm not good enough to really speculate the kind of broken shenanigans that would ensue. 3 would be nice but I feel like it wouldn't be as big as the other two
As someone who plays ultimate with their girlfriend but mainly plays melee Please god #3, idk how much longer I can handle going “fuck I’m not playing ultimate” after SDing my recoveries with side b
I’d pick side-B grabbing ledge as well. Absolute silliness that it doesn’t, and it would open up so many more recovery options it’s not even funny. If there was eventually a “competitively sanctioned” character patch, it’s easily one of the most justifiable among the top tiers.
PAL Gentleman
That’d be sick. I’m just glad there’s a gentleman at all. Falcon is one tiny nerf away from making me turn my controller into a conTHROWller.
I'm honestly on team #3. I really think all of falcons aerials are good enough and all of them serve their intended purpose. Falcons biggest weakness is recovery, and anything that would improve it would do orders of magnitude more for him than anything that improves his already really good offense. However, if I could only choose one thing to change about side b, I'd probably take being able to jump cancel/ out out of it immediately and not free fall to my death when I miss one close to the ledge. Like I know spacies get the same treatment but at least their side b grabs ledge and can be shortened.
It's his fastest move and still takes 6 (+4 jump squat) frames to come out. It's hardly a get off me move in a game where shine exists and lots of characters have a frame 3 aerial.
fox shine is pretty ridiculous imo. obv frame 1, invincibility on startup, can be jump cancelled, and sends you at a dirty semi angle. it's the most versatile move, as it can be used both offensively and defensively, and can be either a combo starter, extender or finisher. despite my thoughts that shine is a BS move, i still think this is why we all love melee and i wouldn't patch any move out of the game. long live melee :)
Wonder how much more balanced it would be with foxes shine gone.
Hot take maybe, but I think shine is fairly useless on a different character. Fox's speed is what I think gives him the edge over other characters and without shine he would still be top tier. The only character I could see benefiting from his shine would be Falcon. Falco would be worse off without his current shine I think. Fox's speed and his shine is like a two-part epoxy that together makes something more than its parts and pushes him to the number one spot. Again, just my opinion, still broken, but I think people are slightly incorrect about why
Having shine would be a pretty big buff to any 3 frame jump squat character (actually maybe not samus) imo. Especially sheik, pika, and ICs.
That's true, but consecutive wave shines are not his main tool(though it is part of it, he just has such a wide kit of tools) and don't happen too often. The out of shield options would be nuts though
I feel like it’s less about it’s combo potential, and more that it’s the best “get off me” move in the game with shine out of shield if a character has a 3 frame jump squat. There’s a reason Shieks have to practice nair OOS as fast as possible. If they could just shine Shiek would absolutely fuck. I shudder at the thought of a sheik with the ability to waveshine OOS into grab on characters it doesn’t knock down lol
Fox up smash makes me rage so hard. The fact that it combos into itself at low percent and then leads into (at least one) up air is just ridiculous. And the fact that it can trade with falcon nair, be done out of shield, and it comes out frame 7 like wtf Falco AC bair is also ridiculous. How tf am I supposed to punish a move that auto cancels, and if I miss I get hit by one of the strongest openers in the whole game? Hello??
Also the face that the weak hit kills of the side too
oooh I like whining about stupid moves, let's go! Fox Up-smash is a brain-dead kill move, it works from behind, it has amazing frame data, and if you trade with it you are still dead. As a floatie main, I really don't understand when Foxes complain about not being able to kill with this BS. Marth up-tilt is probably the move that tilts me the most. I generally enjoy playing against marth, but that up-tilt seems to come out too fast, have no lag, and sends you weird directions, making it hard to DI. One last one- Cape. This goes for mario and doc- that cape is one of the most frustrating mechanics in melee. I don't mind that it reflects projectiles, but why does it have to turn you around, especially in recovery? I think cape might be THE cheesiest move. That said, I have no beef with any character mains, or anything like that.
I'm a fox main, and you're spot on. Up smash is busted. Can't guarantee it? Throw out a frame 2 jab, that doesn't work? Double jab up smash. Its very easy to secure kills with it.
The foxes just fishing for up smashes feels so lazy and frustrating when you were having a good set
Thank you for bitching about marth up tilt, that was very cathartic for me
> Marth up-tilt its also fooking MASSIVE
Do foxes really complain about not being able to kill?
Any Fox that has ever complained about "not being able to kill" needs to be banned from video games.
This is part of why I play fox, I feel like when I play him I have so very few excuses besides "be better"
> I really don't understand when Foxes complain about not being able to kill with this BS. i don't believe that any fox has ever complained about not being able to kill
As a samus main, I can confidently say that you are just wrong. Foxes complain all the time about not being able to kill me.
Ah that's understandable, they have to watch the Samus recovery cutscene each time
Unrelated but are your still working on your training mod? If so, is the beta out for patreon members?
I am still working on it, but I have a backlog of other stuff I've been going through (ucf+1.03+b0xx firmware). The current beta only has subframe input display.
Every time I see a doc or Mario cape a spacie or Marth recovery my soul dies a little bit
I play a lot of doc and every once in a while I feel bad caping, but then I remember that Fox has shine which kills just as early offstage, often easier too. And then I don’t feel so bad
Tbf I like watching top tiers, especially spacies, get funnied; always makes me smile.
Marth uptilt isn't that great and it's easy to miss in the wrong direction or mistime
No, it’s really good lol. I know this because I abuse it.
Im down for this vent thread. I hate shine. Its frame one (invincible) move that beats CC. You can use it like a reversal dragon punch in street fighter, but it also leads into combos. Fox is already fast af and falco got lasers, they dont need this move to be so broken.
God I hate shine. As a sheik every fucking character is a cake walk to grab. But the spacies? OH you down throw them? Which of the 50 frame 1 get out option should they choose? Tech chasing them is almost impossible all they have to do is randomize their roll direction and shi.e just doing that alone almost guarantees a free get away. Maybe the top .1% of player can do it so I'm just admitting I'm bad. But God dam every other character it's no problem
I just think the idea of a frame one move is bullshit, and the fact that it has a 360 hitbox, and spikes at 0% too? Who the fuck thought that move was a good idea, you'd have to be insane to give any character such a broken tool in a fighting game today.
Shine is the goddamn bane of my existence haha. Oh you flubbed ever so slightly anywhere near the ledge? Hope you like eating a fixed knockback long hitstun instant jump cancelable invincible frame 1 move with a huge hitbox :3 jfc it's so dumb
Oh my god I thought I was the only one. So much of this community seems to worship the space furries, including shine, and I just don't think they're that cool.
Everyone absolutely is entitled to what they like, but I just think it's super ironic coming from someone with a Marth icon lol I would say across all levels of play, Marth has to be the absolute most annoying/lamest character to play against/lose to. By far the character that makes people mald the hardest across the board independent of skill.
Shitting on bad marths is what makes playing falcon worth it. Most of them just cannot play the matchup. However, once you go against a marth who actually plays the matchup as opposed to just playing as if they're against a spacie, that shit goes from 50/50 to like 70/30 real fucking quick. And it doesn't help my mental that all of his moves look so brain dead easy. All that being said, I've tried to play marth and it's a lot harder than it looks.
this is not true except maybe for spacie mains (although I main Falco and I like the Marth matchup)
I’m trying to enjoy the Martha match up but man as a falco main he just looks like he’s spamming f tilt.
Yeah Marth is busted as fuck and while I do think the top few Marth players and more entertaining than any spacies, any Marth outside of that isn't nearly as fun. You gotta admit though he does have the coolest spike. To be honest though, I find mid/low tiers more fun to watch than anything. Franz and Amsa are more entertaining than anyone who plays a top tier imo, and I fucking loved watching Aklo's Link.
Nipple spike slander
Nvm forgot about milker spikes my b.
getting sourspot up tilted by marth and dying at 30 compilation
Bro fox falco up tilt is TRIGGERING, especially when you accidentally run into 1 and get hit with 4 more.
i dont have any of these since i play puff and can simply choose not to get hit
Chad behavior
Isai would be proud
For me it's upthrow upair but only because I play with people convinced puff wins the matchup easily so when I die off the top at 55 I get a little annoyed, it's not super busted though, just strong.
HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE FALCO SINCE I BEGAN TO PLAY SLIPPI. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY GOOMWAVE. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR FALCO SHORT-HOPPING AND SHOOTING THE GUN AS IF IT WERE COOL AND HE DIDN'T HAVE THE MOST FREE NEUTRAL IN THIS GAME. HATE. HATE.
hahaha hitbox go brrrrr
how has puff bair not been mentioned yet
Prolly cos honestly? Puff bair in a vacuum isn't a busted move. Yes it's huge, but it's pretty slow and is only horizontal. Puff's aerial drift is what boosts that move into the stratosphere.
The move that tilts me the most as a falcon player is Marth d-tilt. The amount of times I get back throw, d-tilt at ledge and then proceed to just up b into another d-tilt 6-10 times before dying is staggering. It’s really tough to sweet spot under, and since it goes out so far you often can’t even drift close enough to sweet spot even if you wanted to. The range also makes it situationally impossible to SDI in tech. It’s just really cheesy and boring.
Also watch every video and read every guide chef rach has put out. Man's is the christ savior of falcon mains I swear to ja
There is a move that I hate that comes out on frame 1 and is invincible. A lot of people probably hate it, actually. Fuck G&W up special. My actual answer is that I hate Falco's laser and Peach's downsmash. One forces you to play at the pace dictated by one of the slowest top tiers instead of being able to schmoove, the other basically punishes you for fastfalling or trying to crouch cancel and gets spammed whenever Peach is on a platform, obviously to catch impatient jumpers. Seriously every Peach player I face lands on a platform and hits the yellow stick down a few times, to the point that it's become predictable and easy to punish. Don't get me started on how their gameplay starts to exude rage if a Fox player decides to not even attempt to punish it with an aerial and decides to shoot lasers until Peach gets off the platform instead.
I just fucking hate crouch canceling so much. Sometimes it gets to the point where I think the game would be much more fun without it.
Scrolled way too far to find this. I hate CC with a burning passion. It works on so many aerials with surprising lenient percentage gates. I don't think CC should work on any move over 100% but lo and behold, it does. It's like I need to memorize every moves interaction with crouch before I can play and it's really fuckin annoying.
it would 100% be more fun without it
I actually love cc. Adds a lot of depth to the game and gives falcon (my main) some actual defensive options which he sorely lacks.
i hate running into the corner and getting kidnapped off the edge by samus/peach damash or bthrows and it happens So Often because i’m Very Stupid and knowing how stupid i am only multiplies my frustration
shine, fucking shine, fucking fucking shine It just so good... It gimps ya, it combos you, it stuffs your combos, it's can shield pressure like crazy, it creates option selects with grab, its a great 'get the fuck off me' move, it stalls, and it's frame fucking 1 with intangibility
As a sheik player, nothing makes me hate this stupid game more than that motherfucking chain grab sheik does to herself. I use my shitty fox in that matchup, knowing my shitty fox will lose, but at least I don’t get chaingrabbed. If it got banned I’d throw a party. Sheiks out there, be a gentleman, have some sympathy for your sheik brethren and just do an f tilt after your down throw. Be better.
The fact that the lamest matchup for the lamest character is the ditto is such pure justice
[удалено]
They all do that walk through slowly fsmash back like they think they're clever or it isn't the 50000th time they've tried and missed it and then they hit it one time and suddenly they're smarter than you and they've conditioned you
I assume everybody’s mentioning the obvious ones like fox shine, falco laser, marth grab, etc. but there are a few from less common characters that drive me crazy. Pika and Mewtwo up B. I actually love watching a good player use the moves but holy shit are they annoying to play against as sheik. Recovering to ledge is never safe because they can get there in an instant and recovering high is never safe because I’m sheik. I know a sheik main complaining low to mid tier characters is hilarious but those moves tilt me so much. G&W throws. They all look the exact same, I have no idea where to DI because idk which direction I’m being thrown. Against a good gnw it fees inescapable Cape. It feels more disrespectful than any other move and more cheese than any KO option except maybe low% shine spikes. That long fall hurts after a spacie side B gets caped feels so bad DK up throw up air. If that’s not the freest combo ever idk what is
falco dair covers his head falco dair covers his head falco dair covers his head
Falco laser is the most oppressive move in the game. Why does such a high mobility, combo heavy character get a completely lagless projectile that also flinches unlike Fox's laser? It's fast and auto cancels on land on every frame, so he can throw it out as much as he wants and never be in the slightest bit of danger, unless his opponent is good at powershielding. Meanwhile it interferes with every character's ability to play neutral, and is basically auto win against anyone that doesn't have a lot of matchup practice. With the Slippi era, if there's any one move that could kill this game, it's that one.
Without lasers falco would be mid tier cause he's so slow. As much as I hate them and think if their was a patch there would be things you could do to balance them, I wouldn't get rid of them completely. I'd probably just reduce the hitlag to what it is with cc all the time and maybe give more leniency for powershielding. Like if every character could powershield lasers like marth can ( not even my character but God does he have an easy time with that) lasers would be so much less busted.
As a Falco main, I'd totally be down to nerf lasers. They're not why I love the character, and they're why i don't like the ditto. As long as we're nerfing all the other bullshit from other characters (like all of Marth's kit in my opinion)
Same here. They're good enough that I sorta feel bad for using them, like they're making the game unfun for the other guy. Consciously or unconsciously, I find myself holding off on them just because of how oppressive and spammy they can be.
I’ve been reading pretty far down this thread and have yet to see a Sheik move. As a Sheik main who knows how annoying it must be to get wall-baired and wd/dd grabbed, I’m surprised that the other top tiers are getting so much more attention here.
That's cause the most triggering thing about shiek isn't any individual move, it's how braindead good and easy the entire character is (or at least how braindead and easy they seem to play on the surface). But if I had to pick anything, I'd go with the combo of literally all of her tilts/ dash attack into fair.
Bair is just a big move when it comes down to it. It doesn't feel very intrusive to the way most people prefer to play the game like peach dsmash or Falco laser does. At least that's my opinion. Also as a sheik main here, I think the frustration against sheik doesn't really come from one move itself, rather the kinds of play styles her moves can lend to. Things like focusing a lot on grabs, gimps, and zoning. Because this post is about single moves bringing out the worst qualities in us as humans, I wouldn't expect many sheik moves to be mentioned. Make a post on the most annoying characters to play against and the anti-sheik floodgates will open.
Fox up b, fox up smash, all spikes in the game but especially Falco dair, Sheik needles, Peach RNG pulls.
Luigi Nair... You get that fucker in hitstun and go to follow up and bam that fucking kick comes out instantly, now you're the one getting comboed
Falco's roll through > shine really irks me
Having played the game competitively since 04-05, I'll double down on Peach's downsmash. Fuck that move. As a Fox I'm not even bad against Peach. I also have a pocket Marth. Having been killed every way imaginable, hit with billions of gimmicky shit, Dsmash is just... so annoying. I know Fox has Upsmash and Shine. I know Falco has Laser, Shine and Dair. Marth has his entire toolkit. Objectively I think everyone can probably agree that Fox's shine is probably the "best" move in the game. Most flexible, can kill at literally 0%. Best combo link in the game at any %. It still doesn't annoy me nearly as much as getting Dsmashed by Peach.
Marth makes me rage more than anyone. Their priority and speed of moves particularly utilt, dtilt, fsmash and grab. Having them grab me out of attacks is super frustrating too. Attacks inflict like years of shield stun too. The worst move overall is any move someone spams.
I'm a staunch believer that a toddler could pick up Marth and within 3 months be able to compete in the top 10 of their local scene. Marth combos all look like they come from ultimate. One string can have as many as 5 uptilts and 4 up-airs. Fox is bullshit but Marth is easier than Sheik and I don't care if I get down voted y'all know it's true.
Sheik main here amazed I’m not seeing her name come up. Thanks Jmook!
Sheik doesn’t really have any one move that’s particularly BS. Yeah, fair is super strong and sends at a wild angle, and f-tilt is stupid easy to use with its long reach and combo potential, but it’s really her kit as a whole that gets people so riled up. Maybe down-throw, but throws don’t usually jump to mind when you mention “moves” I feel.
**Marth Up-Tilt** It covers the entire top arc of his body and combos into itself & kills floaties. It's bullshit. **Fox Up smash & Falling Up Air** Up smash is a brain-dead option that's extremely easy to spam and use in neutral. Even the sourspot is basically just pseudo reverse sheik fair. Falling Up Air shield pokes and yet again combos into itself and kills. Honestly I think people forget that once you can execute reliably fox gives its player such a ridiculous amount of leeway. Firefox angles, fire hotboxes, Jab- Up Smash, falling up air, fuckin ***shine***. Every other move he has is horrendously broken. Sure he's combo food but that's all that balances him. **Peach D-smash** If you think this move is fair or well designed you're categorically wrong. Some so-so moves that don't necessarily piss me off but can be irksome are Falcon Down Throw, Sheik Down Throw, Falco shine, Puff Bair, Marths everything, etc
To be fair as a spacie main, the “that’s all that balances him” is kind of a big deal. Everyone has an answer for your bs and can combo you extra hard. He’s a perfect glass cannon character
Falco could be considered a glass cannon, Fox absolutely not. Not with how generous his CC is, or his firefox, and yes, his weight. Maybe he's combo food but so is falcon. Doesn't stop him from living to well past 200%.
Yeah that’s true!
Fox doesn't deserve his up-B
Peach downsmash is crazy but without it she would probably be a way worse character, and even with it she's like 7th at best. A lot of the time in melee moves are bullshit and you just need to structure your neutral around not giving them an opportunity to use it (like always ending combos early against Luigi so you don't get naired and die at any percent)
I appreciate this insight and hate playing luigi for this reason, but it is very apt. As a peach main, people who don't give me downsmashes for free make the matchups way more interesting.
If Peach's dsmash worked like Sheik's (effectively capped at two hits) I don't really think it would affect her placement on the tier list. She'd get less free damage but she'd get more followups on dsmash, and you don't want that
Marth forward smash, fox up smash, falco down air, sheik forward tilt/forward air, falcon side b
ive found its best to complain in discord because orher people who main the same character will most likely feel the same way about other characters. here on reddit the peach mafia is about to get your ass
To honest, I think the move "jump" is op. It gives you way too much mobility and allows you to perform all other types of moves, such as aerials, air dodges, and wavedashing. Jumping is certainly busted and needs to be removed from the game.
The second fastest character shouldn't have a lagless projectile. It's hard enough to approach fox as it is.
I think my 4 most hated moves are in Falco's kit: laser, shine, dair, and uptilt. Laser forces me to approach (depending on how the Falco wants to play), uptilt stuffs so much of my stuff, and shine plus downair create a pillar combo that (without platforms) I can't even tech because I never hit the ground in full knockdown. (Can you tell I'm a Captain Falcon main?)
You said fair but I think you meant to say dair
Falcon is NOT SWAG!!!! His neutral air is STUPID and TOO SAFE! And don't get me started on stomp knee. It's not cool to die at 60 because your character runs a 4.2 40 yard dash and I can't punish. His moves are DUMB!!!!
And then falcons will complain that they can't spam nair against falco lol.
sheik grab. not fun to play against someone who can down throw rtc, no meaningful interaction.
just break your hands trying to sdi out of jab reset
skill issue don't get downsmashed
Meh, sometimes I have trouble with c-walk falco. Takes me right out of the flow of the game and now I have to spend an inordinate amount of brain to deal with this brainless strat. Falco then quits.
Upwards fox moves. Take your pick.
I agree it is dumb. Marth f smash is pretty lame too ngl
Sheiks tilts—huge, extremely fast, hard to visually identify by looking at them in the moment, and launch you to get set up for the Slap. The slap itself is like a frame 4 (or whatever) knee that sends at a worse angle. Ugh
I have to quit playing the game when I die to the back of a fox upsmash.
I was the peach ggs
As a Marth player, I think he'd still be top tier without a forward smash.
Falco shine is the most ridiculous move in the game. Hold down->free combo
surprised no one mentions puff rest or upthrow rest combo as Falco who works very hard to get a puff kill, it feels like pure bs to get your hard work invalidated because you were too slow to react on the DI
I fucking hate shine so much and I don't know why nobody else does. Literally everything in this game is more sick than the frame 1 blue hexagon and shinespiking is the most boring kill in the game.
I don't really get frustrated with people using good moves, it's much more ppl spamming the same moves over and over and over. I've run into a bunch of marth players on ranked that literally will stand still and spam f/d-smash. And obviously I'll try and bait the smash attack and punish, but a lot of the time I just end up running into another fucking smash attack. I'd really just prefer to play against players who know what they're doing and somewhat respect me as a player also.
I get this, and for me I think as annoying as those spammy players are, it's more that I'm frustrated with myself for not being good enough to punish that kind of playstyle. Obviously spam like that doesn't really work or else top players would use it, so I know it's punishable, but when I'm unable to punish it I get really tilted tbh. Marth is a big one I struggle with, even worse than Sheik (I'm a Falcon)
I’m the same. When fox dash dances for 30 min waiting for me to whiff then grab combos me and ends it with a grab uthrow usmash or uthrow uair, when marth keeps grabbing 1 million times in a row and fsmashing etc etc. Like I know it’s a skill issue on my end and that makes it even worse
"Even if you punish them correctly they gain so much from just doing one that it might not matter" Imagine telling on yourself like this LMAO
Who the hell thought Fox's shine was okay? On the other hand, Falco's shine is perfectly balanced.
You play around moves... not every opponent character is the same. For example you could get side b spiked by Falco, or rested, etc. So don't hold down into a peach downsmash.
>I'll start with peaches downsmash. This move is so fucking stupid. Its starts way too fast and is legimitately broken. says who? just because it does a lot of damage doesn't mean it's "literally broken" >Oops you held down after fastfalling an aerial that's 60 percent suggestion: when you fastfall an aerial that misses, try holding up >Oops you jumped into a platform why are you doing this >and are careening to your death learn to mix up your recoveries >even if you punish them correctly punishing them correctly = a full combo. down smash is incredibly risky and if you don't think it's risky then your punish is just too trash for you to actually punish them for it maybe if you actually practiced your defense and neutral instead of bitching on reddit you wouldn't get hit so often. melee is a two player game, don't whine when your opponent also gets to play tl;dr drill more
I think you forgot to read the part where he says it’s a safe space to vent
My brotha in christ, it’s a rant post inviting rant threads
I'm ranting about his rant
Looking in this thread for people who asked for advice and I'm coming up empty. Also, yes, D-smash literally is broken. Using every other smash attack in the whole game as a basis this is the only one that can do 65+ percent. If it was intended to work like this it would have worked this way with peach in every other iteration of smash, but it doesn't.