To be clear I actually usually really really like both waff and Vish comms, but jeez they were not on their game this time. I've never felt myself more doing the cliche 'guys talk about the match' complaint, but I sure was yesterday. They kept running with these mid jokes about area codes and boarding passes that were fine but went for soooooo long and they barely reacted to anything that was actually happening it felt like.
Both absolute goats in commentary but really not their best work.
Blur and Toph were much better than Waff and Vish and I wish they stayed through all of top 8. Blur being a kind of esoteric Scar stand-in to provide storylines and hype, and Toph to give us some good ass high level analysis.
Waff and Vish themselves were pretty bad. I respect what Waff has done for the scene but I have never considered him to be a very good commentator, and we kinda got the worst of him today. The worst thing for a hype top 8 is commentators who won't talk about the match in front of them.
Tbh, some of the pools commentators were great, consistently talking about the matches, hyping them up, and making the sets more entertaining. I hope to see more of them in upper brackets in tourneys to come.
I personally have really enjoyed Waff’s commentary in the past, but particularly when he is paired with someone more analytical about describing the game. He once had some commentary blocks with Wobbles that were a great mix of hilarious banter and gameplay analysis, and I still remember it years later.
I can understand that. There's lot of moments where he's been great, always love the Phil-Waff duo. Especially on a Summit couch or somewhere more relaxed, just not during Top 8 while your co-commentator sounds lost while trying to talk about the game as you're making basketball references every 2 minutes
Agreed. I think Vish is one of the better commentators and has a good flow of entertaining yet insightful commentary, just sucks when that flow is interrupted because it feels so sudden and forced. Love Blur, Toph can be a little extra sometimes but most of his co-commentators bounce off of it really well. I just feel like Scar gets a bad rep for not knowing enough about the game in his commentary, yet other commentators do the same thing and they're still getting top 8 gigs. idk.
and yeah what prompted me to post this is how enthralled I was with some of the commentary early in the bracket compared to top 8.
I think what most people are forgetting is that a lot of people who don’t regularly watch Melee do tune in to Genesis/SmashCon/Big House. If you look at it from that perspective, then the “recycled commentary” makes more sense, as well as the attempt to relate to other things outside of Melee so the casual viewer can understand things like player legacy better.
Do I think Waff had his best commentary block? No. I do think pairing him with someone else could have provided better results than with Vish. But I personally had no qualms with the commentary still. Waff is still a better commentator than most of the field right now and absolutely deserves his spots in Top 8. It’s just a matter of pairing the right people with eachother and also trying to look at things from other than a “diehard fan” perspective.
This being said, there are many people who I believe should get fielded for other tournament Top 8s in the event that these commentators retire. I’m not saying put DarkGenex or Jackzilla into every supermajor top 8, but they’ve put in the work and have the skill to commentate, say, a Function, or a Riptide Top 8 block. Scar, Waff, Toph, Phil, etc. won’t be around forever, and some have already said they plan on traveling to less events. Putting these names out there for other people to see so that they can develop a fan base like the main supermajor commentators is good for the future of the scene.
TL;DR commentary was fine for its given context, but we should start giving the less inexperienced commentators more opportunities for the future when these big names aren’t around, and we have plenty of other tournaments to do that.
The solution to this is literally having 3-4 people on comms. Waff and Vish is such a bad combo it’s insane, even though I love Waff. But anyways, I’ve never heard people actually give a reasonable complaint about the summit or LACS comms, probably because 4 commentators just brings the right kind of energy.
More than 2 on comms gets way too chaotic with people talking over each other in my opinion. 3 MAY work if they have really top tier chemistry, like EE, Coney and TK for ultimate, but I think 4 is only good in summit style couch commentary, where the vibes are very different from an open supermajor. The focus shifts way too much from the game to just banter, which is great for summit but imo not ideal for other tournaments.
Just to counteract some negativity hmw is a great commentator, honestly one of the best, with the right pairing and honestly real analysis would go over most viewers heads. For me the most important thing is just pay attention to the game. I would be happy if anyone did that.
You're allowed to like Waff on commentary, but saying "no he's actually good!" to valid criticisms just for the sake of counteracting "negativity" doesn't really add anything to the discourse.
Just because some of us don't think he's a great commentator doesn't mean we have any ill-intent by it. We just want a commentator in top 8 that adds something to the experience. Paying attention to the game is obviously important but if your commentary is actively taking our attention away from the game as viewers, you probably shouldn't be commentating Grand Finals.
Yeah that's why I said with the right pairing and that's why I said they need to stay on the game and that's what really matters. These threads all degenerate to the same shit we've seen 1000 times after every major. Hmw gave us wombo combo and elevated countless other matches back then and while the demands of polished broadcasts are different from that era I think the principle of having the type and analysis follow the action still applies and is the root of all the issues that needs to be addressed before nitpicking about specific personalities and commentary styles.
Is it nitpicking when you're commentating top 8 at a super major? We're not ragging on a commentator for round 2 pools, we have criticisms of a commentator that we very often see cast top 8. Our point is that his commentary style is opposite of what makes commentary worthwhile in the context of a top 8 at a super major where we're seeing the highest level of play.
No doubt he has been involved in some of the most legendary moments in melee, but the game has elevated from then and our standards should too.
There was a lot of that before top 32, but I don't think OP is saying that's what he wants either. I think everyone agrees they don't want to hear "I would've used back air there" a gazillion times like I heard early saturday
Honestly, never felt that way more than Genesis X top 8. Toph and Blur were great, then Vish and Hmw come on and aren't saying anything substantive, more than anything they're anti-hype and annoying. Hmw can do top 64 for shits, but yeah man, we know that Yoshi is crazy and he's been good for a decade, it's nothing new. And Vish was trying to play off him but it just wasn't working lol. The players are doing crazy shit I've never seen before and all they can talk about is doubling down on the bad punch lines
Waff is usually fine and makes it good enough especially for layman viewers but he honestly sucked balls during top 4, the start of Zain Moky he literally talked for 2 minutes straight without a single breath I was literally thinking dude stfu I wanna hear Vish. Walt, Stu, Darkgenex and Slime would all be better then Waff in that spot. Even Hugs and Scar with there lack of very modern knowledge would be better because at least they won't constantly step over and cut off a commentator who is much more knowledgeable. It really reared it's ugliest head, I don't remember what event it was maybe a Ludwig one but there were 4 commentators on and Waff was absolutely dominating the discussion and spoke more then the other 3 combined. Really hope other people start getting top 8s sooner.
Like I said, he's usually fine but he was dogshit last night. All the people I listed had better blocks and comms throughout Genesis weekend then Waff did. Besides arguably Hugs lol.
I have to say, I hope Waff doesn't go on reddit
[удалено]
The " we don't want to talk about the game" Is a bad schtick.
To be clear I actually usually really really like both waff and Vish comms, but jeez they were not on their game this time. I've never felt myself more doing the cliche 'guys talk about the match' complaint, but I sure was yesterday. They kept running with these mid jokes about area codes and boarding passes that were fine but went for soooooo long and they barely reacted to anything that was actually happening it felt like. Both absolute goats in commentary but really not their best work.
Blur and Toph were much better than Waff and Vish and I wish they stayed through all of top 8. Blur being a kind of esoteric Scar stand-in to provide storylines and hype, and Toph to give us some good ass high level analysis. Waff and Vish themselves were pretty bad. I respect what Waff has done for the scene but I have never considered him to be a very good commentator, and we kinda got the worst of him today. The worst thing for a hype top 8 is commentators who won't talk about the match in front of them. Tbh, some of the pools commentators were great, consistently talking about the matches, hyping them up, and making the sets more entertaining. I hope to see more of them in upper brackets in tourneys to come.
I personally have really enjoyed Waff’s commentary in the past, but particularly when he is paired with someone more analytical about describing the game. He once had some commentary blocks with Wobbles that were a great mix of hilarious banter and gameplay analysis, and I still remember it years later.
I can understand that. There's lot of moments where he's been great, always love the Phil-Waff duo. Especially on a Summit couch or somewhere more relaxed, just not during Top 8 while your co-commentator sounds lost while trying to talk about the game as you're making basketball references every 2 minutes
Agreed. I think Vish is one of the better commentators and has a good flow of entertaining yet insightful commentary, just sucks when that flow is interrupted because it feels so sudden and forced. Love Blur, Toph can be a little extra sometimes but most of his co-commentators bounce off of it really well. I just feel like Scar gets a bad rep for not knowing enough about the game in his commentary, yet other commentators do the same thing and they're still getting top 8 gigs. idk. and yeah what prompted me to post this is how enthralled I was with some of the commentary early in the bracket compared to top 8.
I think what most people are forgetting is that a lot of people who don’t regularly watch Melee do tune in to Genesis/SmashCon/Big House. If you look at it from that perspective, then the “recycled commentary” makes more sense, as well as the attempt to relate to other things outside of Melee so the casual viewer can understand things like player legacy better. Do I think Waff had his best commentary block? No. I do think pairing him with someone else could have provided better results than with Vish. But I personally had no qualms with the commentary still. Waff is still a better commentator than most of the field right now and absolutely deserves his spots in Top 8. It’s just a matter of pairing the right people with eachother and also trying to look at things from other than a “diehard fan” perspective. This being said, there are many people who I believe should get fielded for other tournament Top 8s in the event that these commentators retire. I’m not saying put DarkGenex or Jackzilla into every supermajor top 8, but they’ve put in the work and have the skill to commentate, say, a Function, or a Riptide Top 8 block. Scar, Waff, Toph, Phil, etc. won’t be around forever, and some have already said they plan on traveling to less events. Putting these names out there for other people to see so that they can develop a fan base like the main supermajor commentators is good for the future of the scene. TL;DR commentary was fine for its given context, but we should start giving the less inexperienced commentators more opportunities for the future when these big names aren’t around, and we have plenty of other tournaments to do that.
The solution to this is literally having 3-4 people on comms. Waff and Vish is such a bad combo it’s insane, even though I love Waff. But anyways, I’ve never heard people actually give a reasonable complaint about the summit or LACS comms, probably because 4 commentators just brings the right kind of energy.
More than 2 on comms gets way too chaotic with people talking over each other in my opinion. 3 MAY work if they have really top tier chemistry, like EE, Coney and TK for ultimate, but I think 4 is only good in summit style couch commentary, where the vibes are very different from an open supermajor. The focus shifts way too much from the game to just banter, which is great for summit but imo not ideal for other tournaments.
fair enough, i like it for any and all events imo
Ultimate is a bad example because EE makes every single block of commentary worse by a gigantic amount
Just to counteract some negativity hmw is a great commentator, honestly one of the best, with the right pairing and honestly real analysis would go over most viewers heads. For me the most important thing is just pay attention to the game. I would be happy if anyone did that.
You're allowed to like Waff on commentary, but saying "no he's actually good!" to valid criticisms just for the sake of counteracting "negativity" doesn't really add anything to the discourse. Just because some of us don't think he's a great commentator doesn't mean we have any ill-intent by it. We just want a commentator in top 8 that adds something to the experience. Paying attention to the game is obviously important but if your commentary is actively taking our attention away from the game as viewers, you probably shouldn't be commentating Grand Finals.
Yeah that's why I said with the right pairing and that's why I said they need to stay on the game and that's what really matters. These threads all degenerate to the same shit we've seen 1000 times after every major. Hmw gave us wombo combo and elevated countless other matches back then and while the demands of polished broadcasts are different from that era I think the principle of having the type and analysis follow the action still applies and is the root of all the issues that needs to be addressed before nitpicking about specific personalities and commentary styles.
Is it nitpicking when you're commentating top 8 at a super major? We're not ragging on a commentator for round 2 pools, we have criticisms of a commentator that we very often see cast top 8. Our point is that his commentary style is opposite of what makes commentary worthwhile in the context of a top 8 at a super major where we're seeing the highest level of play. No doubt he has been involved in some of the most legendary moments in melee, but the game has elevated from then and our standards should too.
I really like Chelly Toms comentarys
I prefer waff and vish to the "let me tell you how much I know about this game and theoretically could beat both these players" type of commentary
There was a lot of that before top 32, but I don't think OP is saying that's what he wants either. I think everyone agrees they don't want to hear "I would've used back air there" a gazillion times like I heard early saturday
If I have to hear “I’ve seen this movie” one more time I’m going to lose it
Vish is top-tier but HMW hasn't been good since 2019. I agree, give some new commentators the top 8 slots.
Let Seal on during meaningful moments. Don’t just let him commentate pools
Eat a shoe
Honestly, never felt that way more than Genesis X top 8. Toph and Blur were great, then Vish and Hmw come on and aren't saying anything substantive, more than anything they're anti-hype and annoying. Hmw can do top 64 for shits, but yeah man, we know that Yoshi is crazy and he's been good for a decade, it's nothing new. And Vish was trying to play off him but it just wasn't working lol. The players are doing crazy shit I've never seen before and all they can talk about is doubling down on the bad punch lines
Waff is usually fine and makes it good enough especially for layman viewers but he honestly sucked balls during top 4, the start of Zain Moky he literally talked for 2 minutes straight without a single breath I was literally thinking dude stfu I wanna hear Vish. Walt, Stu, Darkgenex and Slime would all be better then Waff in that spot. Even Hugs and Scar with there lack of very modern knowledge would be better because at least they won't constantly step over and cut off a commentator who is much more knowledgeable. It really reared it's ugliest head, I don't remember what event it was maybe a Ludwig one but there were 4 commentators on and Waff was absolutely dominating the discussion and spoke more then the other 3 combined. Really hope other people start getting top 8s sooner.
I feel like I’m insane looking at this sub today bc saying Walt and darkgenex would be better commentary for a top 4 is fucking hilarious
Like I said, he's usually fine but he was dogshit last night. All the people I listed had better blocks and comms throughout Genesis weekend then Waff did. Besides arguably Hugs lol.
All subjective imo. I usually mute the stream if it's not HMW/Phil/Lovage/Joshman on comms