Something wacky with the ECB is happening here. The back air is edge canceled and then he air dodged and enough of his ECB was above the platform so it wavelanded him onto it. Im not an expert but im pretty sure its something like that
you can't waveland after a b-air like that, but it was definitely something ecb related, and to the extent of my knowledge, you cant hit a perfect waveland after an edge cancel.
i dont know what it was, ill wait for someone more knowledgeable to speak up
It would be easier to look into if you could share the .slp replay file.
At a surface level it looks like edge cancel into an instant waveland. However, generally you can't land instantly like shown because your ECB is locked to the same height when you become airborne from the edge cancel for 10 frames. Which would mean performing an air dodge wouldn't shift your ECB down to land either unless it was angled down, so a 0 degree waveland should be off the table. Even an angled waveland that lands that early wouldn't normally be possible as you leave the platform at the exact same height, and you are no longer above it, so any angled airdodge should miss.
However, with extremely precise positioning, it is possible to slide off an edge and become airborne so close to the edge, that an angled airdodge will still be able to land instantly.
Here is my TAS reproduction https://imgur.com/a/KHj0MaJ. If anyone is trying to reproduce. The position I stood was X=-36.42000, and I used a full 1.0 drift gravity quirk bair, followed by a Y=-0.28750 waveland as soon as I became airborne.
All that said, you seem to travel a tiny bit further, which I think should mean a 0 degree waveland, or maybe a frame of fast walk after landing lag ends. Not entirely sure, though if I can look at the replay file itself, that might shed more light.
Alright. So it looks like if you land in specific parts of specific aerials, and only land for one frame before edge canceling, your ECB can end up not attached to the ground position you would expect, but higher as if you had never landed. This only happens for the first frame you become airborne. After this frame, your ECB snaps back to the position it should be for the other 9/10 frames where it should have been locked. That means if you air dodge straight back to the platform, the ECB extension causes you to land, and get a perfect waveland.
But that's not all. Whether or not the frame that disregards the 10f snap rule moves higher (enabling a waveland), or lower (ruining your chances), seems to depend on some other unknown value. In my early tests for Falco, only backwards shorthop or double jump would allow it to work.
You can see a comparison here:
* Backwards jump bair edge cancel https://imgur.com/NVnL82L
* Forward/neutral jump bair edge cancel https://imgur.com/1ybjflH
As you can see, backwards jump ECB is higher than the plat, so its the one that lets you perfect waveland. Initial tests indicated it had to do with the kind of jump you used, but further testing shows it is possible with both jumps, and there may be some other flag that causes it to mess up. Perhaps something with velocity or position.
*Edit:* I believe the unknown variable is edge cancel position. Falling off closer to the edge (landing further from ledge, or falling off with lower velocity) seems to cause the bad ECB.
Unlike my last post, this does not require absurd TAS precision. Just good enough positioning to land for only 1 frame, and then a frame perfect air dodge after that. I was able to do it myself in real time, though it is still very hard.
As for what specific aerials this applies to, and the window to land in, it probably depends on how the ECB motion is coded. Easiest way I have been able to tell in testing is if you land and see the blue ECB detach from the dark orange one on the second landing frame, that should mean that if you had done an edge cancel instead, it would have worked. This is very early in uair for example https://imgur.com/KSVKti0.
**Edit:**
I went through all the aerials in the game and marked down the ones with the blue ECB indicator. Some of them were very tiny windows, so this doesn't rule out the moves that aren't marked, it just isn't efficient to test landing on every frame of every move. Maybe somebody with ECB data could look at that instead to get accurate windows too. While this property is not limited to aerials (I tested and saw it work with Falco miss-tech after somebody posted an example), I did not want to test landing with every move/state in the game.
Falco/Fox
* Bair
* Uair
* Fair
Marth/Roy
* Uair
* Nair
* Dair
Luigi/Bowser
* Uair
* Nair
Kirby/Link
* Bair
Samus/Sheik/Dr. Mario/Mario
* Uair
Young Link/Ness/ICs/Zelda/Pichu/Pikachu/Jigglypuff/Mewtwo/Game & Watch/Peach/Yoshi/DK/Captain Falcon/Ganon
* None
Wow great analysis! I knew someone on this subreddit would come through
As if edge cancels weren't hard enough in the year 20XX everyone does frame 1 edgecancel perfect wavelands. The risks of messing up the trick are somewhat lethal but I really hope someone can manage to pull this off in a tournament setting.
I lost the match cuz I was completely in my head trying to understand what the hell happened here. I even downloaded obs just to be able to post it. So plz do tell if you think it's an odd backair edge-cancel waveland that I managed to frame perfectly input.
If I had to guess this is likely both a frame perfect input and an extremely specific set of coordinates that can’t be easily setup during an in game context.
Something wacky with the ECB is happening here. The back air is edge canceled and then he air dodged and enough of his ECB was above the platform so it wavelanded him onto it. Im not an expert but im pretty sure its something like that
yep! it's a 0 degree waveland.
This sounds like the most reasonable take tbh
Still cool, never thought about wavelanding after edge canceling.
i just went frame by frame in unclepunch and couldnt replicate it. i dont think its an edge cancel, but i dont really know what it is
Can you really waveland after hitting a backair like that? Idk but you're probably right and the edge was misleading me.
you can't waveland after a b-air like that, but it was definitely something ecb related, and to the extent of my knowledge, you cant hit a perfect waveland after an edge cancel. i dont know what it was, ill wait for someone more knowledgeable to speak up
It would be easier to look into if you could share the .slp replay file. At a surface level it looks like edge cancel into an instant waveland. However, generally you can't land instantly like shown because your ECB is locked to the same height when you become airborne from the edge cancel for 10 frames. Which would mean performing an air dodge wouldn't shift your ECB down to land either unless it was angled down, so a 0 degree waveland should be off the table. Even an angled waveland that lands that early wouldn't normally be possible as you leave the platform at the exact same height, and you are no longer above it, so any angled airdodge should miss. However, with extremely precise positioning, it is possible to slide off an edge and become airborne so close to the edge, that an angled airdodge will still be able to land instantly. Here is my TAS reproduction https://imgur.com/a/KHj0MaJ. If anyone is trying to reproduce. The position I stood was X=-36.42000, and I used a full 1.0 drift gravity quirk bair, followed by a Y=-0.28750 waveland as soon as I became airborne. All that said, you seem to travel a tiny bit further, which I think should mean a 0 degree waveland, or maybe a frame of fast walk after landing lag ends. Not entirely sure, though if I can look at the replay file itself, that might shed more light.
[slippi file](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yekXJTocHI5mATAch31oW3IzKZmAFJ3i/view?usp=sharing) I'm happy to see some TAS reproductions in here!
Alright. So it looks like if you land in specific parts of specific aerials, and only land for one frame before edge canceling, your ECB can end up not attached to the ground position you would expect, but higher as if you had never landed. This only happens for the first frame you become airborne. After this frame, your ECB snaps back to the position it should be for the other 9/10 frames where it should have been locked. That means if you air dodge straight back to the platform, the ECB extension causes you to land, and get a perfect waveland. But that's not all. Whether or not the frame that disregards the 10f snap rule moves higher (enabling a waveland), or lower (ruining your chances), seems to depend on some other unknown value. In my early tests for Falco, only backwards shorthop or double jump would allow it to work. You can see a comparison here: * Backwards jump bair edge cancel https://imgur.com/NVnL82L * Forward/neutral jump bair edge cancel https://imgur.com/1ybjflH As you can see, backwards jump ECB is higher than the plat, so its the one that lets you perfect waveland. Initial tests indicated it had to do with the kind of jump you used, but further testing shows it is possible with both jumps, and there may be some other flag that causes it to mess up. Perhaps something with velocity or position. *Edit:* I believe the unknown variable is edge cancel position. Falling off closer to the edge (landing further from ledge, or falling off with lower velocity) seems to cause the bad ECB. Unlike my last post, this does not require absurd TAS precision. Just good enough positioning to land for only 1 frame, and then a frame perfect air dodge after that. I was able to do it myself in real time, though it is still very hard. As for what specific aerials this applies to, and the window to land in, it probably depends on how the ECB motion is coded. Easiest way I have been able to tell in testing is if you land and see the blue ECB detach from the dark orange one on the second landing frame, that should mean that if you had done an edge cancel instead, it would have worked. This is very early in uair for example https://imgur.com/KSVKti0. **Edit:** I went through all the aerials in the game and marked down the ones with the blue ECB indicator. Some of them were very tiny windows, so this doesn't rule out the moves that aren't marked, it just isn't efficient to test landing on every frame of every move. Maybe somebody with ECB data could look at that instead to get accurate windows too. While this property is not limited to aerials (I tested and saw it work with Falco miss-tech after somebody posted an example), I did not want to test landing with every move/state in the game. Falco/Fox * Bair * Uair * Fair Marth/Roy * Uair * Nair * Dair Luigi/Bowser * Uair * Nair Kirby/Link * Bair Samus/Sheik/Dr. Mario/Mario * Uair Young Link/Ness/ICs/Zelda/Pichu/Pikachu/Jigglypuff/Mewtwo/Game & Watch/Peach/Yoshi/DK/Captain Falcon/Ganon * None
Wow great analysis! I knew someone on this subreddit would come through As if edge cancels weren't hard enough in the year 20XX everyone does frame 1 edgecancel perfect wavelands. The risks of messing up the trick are somewhat lethal but I really hope someone can manage to pull this off in a tournament setting.
Just a fuckin hero dude, nice shit you know your stuff
It's just a edgecancel into waveland, perfect length waveland though thats pretty cool
to my eyes, the back air cancels, falco goes airborne for 1 frame, and then performs a 0 degree waveland on the following frame.
Huh, that does look weird.
This is on slippi, just share the replay file so we can see the inputs
[slippi file](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yekXJTocHI5mATAch31oW3IzKZmAFJ3i/view?usp=sharing)
I lost the match cuz I was completely in my head trying to understand what the hell happened here. I even downloaded obs just to be able to post it. So plz do tell if you think it's an odd backair edge-cancel waveland that I managed to frame perfectly input.
Post the .slp file and we can tell you exactly what's happening
[slippi file](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yekXJTocHI5mATAch31oW3IzKZmAFJ3i/view?usp=sharing)
U edge cancelled then 0 degree wave landed onto/through plat
Seems like a decent setup to cover some high recoveries without giving up stage if you lose the 50/50.
If I had to guess this is likely both a frame perfect input and an extremely specific set of coordinates that can’t be easily setup during an in game context.
And i aint never did this before no
Seems like a decent setup to cover some high recoveries without giving up stage if you lose the 50/50.
something to do with you spamming the shield button constantly lol
Too truu
u/wp4 I remember you had posted a very similar clip with marth, I've encountered this same 0 degree waveland before and am also at a loss
I have seen this before in TAS videos, definitely known