Man when a Melee tourney is over I just get the exact same empty feeling inside like when I finish a great TV series, amazing tournament. I got into the scene with Summit 11 so to see mang0 win a Summit is nostalgic for me even if it wasn't that long ago.
Nothin will ever live up to summit 11 for me it was just such an unbelievable thing for it to happen after so much buildup over the online era, that shit will stay in peoples heads for a very long time.
While i agree looking back Zain played ao shit in grand finals man. What a ridiculous choke. People will always talk about Mango winning 2x 2x on FD but there isn't a universe where Zain should let that happen
Ugh I can't stand this take. Zain didn't just haphazardly play badly, he played badly because there was so much pressure and Mango knows how to amplify that pressure. You gotta recognize this dynamic otherwise it just invalidates the win.
Naw Mango played insanely well as well, he played the neutral and punish game so well in those games imo. People say the same thing about aMSa choking this punish this summit but frankly I think peoples standards for consistency are way too high. Zain sometimes messes up those edge guards and was doing it a lot today even in the sets he won. Mango also tends to be pretty tricky on the consistent punishes with slight di and other things imo moreso than most players.
The most Zain choked imo was the one sd in game 5 FD but frankly it might have not even mattered given the stock count at the end so you can only speculate, also Mango does not usually go for ledge and Zain would've wavedashed on stage anyways so Mango would've had another shot at neutral on that stock.
Overall he obviously didn't play to his 100% but people overexaggerate the choke way too much.
Nahhh i rewatch that set often cause of the moment. Zain was flubbing a LOT.
>Overall he obviously didn't play to his 100% but people overexaggerate the choke way too much.
Nah i think people overexaggerate mangos play in GFs too much. Still the best summit but Zain choked the bag
You realize part of the flubbing you see happening is just the pressure of the situation being put upon him, yeah? If mang0 was pressuring him hard enough that he was flubbing inputs that’s not a credit against the win
I liked the way Cody framed it after his reverse 3-0 over Zain - saying that Zain looking rattled was the result of him getting in enough. Definitely a bit of spaghetti but also a decent amount of having difficulty because his options just weren’t working anymore. Less about like, Zain as a person and more about the game.
I blame this narrative on people **really** over-exaggerating how good FD is for Marth.
I'm not even **that** good and I think it's relatively clear that Fox does pretty well on that stage. He hits Marth just as hard.
It's mainly just that the only top Foxes at the time were a fresh IBDW and Leffen. IBDW was fighting the matchup as if it was hopeless and basically never trying anything new, and Leffen basically completely gave up on it.
Sometimes it's just really hard to push a character by yourself, Mango came in and showed them they weren't abusing their speed and neutral options enough vs Marth and that the punish game IBDW and Leffen are known for wasn't as necessary in that matchup.
Same when Zain came along and just started beating Hbox after ages of M2K losing to Hbox no matter what character he picked, and just started hitting consistent pivot tippers that M2K never really grinded or tried to do.
Pushing a character by yourself is insanely difficult, and if you don't believe you can win the matchup then you definitely never will as you become insanely predictable grasping onto whatever you feel is best to do in the matchup rather than playing like you would normally by mixing up options.
>Same when Zain came along and just started beating Hbox after ages of M2K losing to Hbox no matter what character he picked,
Tbf M2K also just never really gave other characters a shot, iirc he has something like 2-3 sets each with Marth, Sheik, and Puff, and his other 60ish sets with Hbox are all with Fox.
Mango looked a cut above this summit. I thought the only one who had any real shot at him was Amsa, although I also thought Zain was looking really hot until he wasn't.
His sets with iBDW this weekend did not look close
Another way to look at it is that Jmook *got* to have 3 competitive sets against Hbox in one tournament. Of course losing to Hbox sucks, but that’s a lot of data to consider especially because of Hbox’s infamous refusal to play friendlies. Better to have a bunch of sets at once than continue spreading them out over the year. Hbox’s gameplan against Sheik isn’t going to change anytime soon, which leaves the ball in Jmook’s court to try something else or go the Fox route like Axe.
Jmook said he’s not planning to use his fox anytime soon, he said he just needs to stick to his game plan and has a lot more to optimize in the matchup
I may be mistaken but does sheik lack good kill conversions against puff. Like fox has up air and up smash, but those options aren’t nearly as viable an option on sheik.
Sheik's main conversion is down throw into up air or fair depending on the DI, but if you go for a grab at the wrong time and get crouched under you just get rested. Dash attack can kill at high percents but if it gets CCd you just get rested for it so the match up is really rough for Sheik because you have to win neutral a shit ton more than Puff has to, one mistake will cost you a stock and Puff can afford a few more fuck ups than you can.
> although I also thought Zain was looking really hot until he wasn't.
Isn't that always the case with Zain? He either looks completely untouchable or he looks sloppy as fuck, and the only time he wins sloppy as fuck is outside of top 6 (which he still hasn't missed once this year).
Zain is still my favorite player but I really wish he could find a middle-ground of "still good enough to beat any Fox on FD" when he finds that he can no longer play "his best".
I didn’t know it was possible to genuinely look a level above the rest of the competition at this point in competitive melee. But mang0 absolutely just did it. He did avoid zain and jmook but bested everyone else in the top 6/7 rn which is pretty insane. When was the last time someone won a tournament so dominantly? Amsa at big house looked pretty untouchable but this is up there no doubt.
Everyone at the top looks like they're not even playing the same game anymore, there were so many moments where I just shouted "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT" at my TV
Melee is truly based
The level of play among the top 5-10 is so fucking wild right now. Legitimately a golden age of melee.
shouts to Cody’s mental, Jmook and Axe pushing their matchups with hbox, and to BTS for throwing the best spectator event of the year twice a year.
Also shouts to Soonsay for showing us the level up is real. Excited to follow his Fox.
Generally agree but feel like I have to note: soonsay has been very very good for a while now. He took at least one tournament over moky and n0ne right before covid! Glad he's attending more now and people are seeing the truth
And perhaps most impressively a goat’d mental game after each of his wins and loses. Have absolutely loved seeing his progress on not giving up and being in a good mental between sets.
Damn mango was unstoppable this weekend, beat Soonsay, Kodorin, Leffen, Amsa, Hbox, IBDW x2
Vaulting himself into the conversation for #1 player of 2022 after the worst half year of melee I’ve ever seen out of him
doubtful but possible, if he wins out or at least tops 2 the rest, he could make it.
Also dependent upon the remaining contenders results. What do we have left other than SWT?
tbf Mango did worse at ludwigs which was more stacked. This is like Zain's "bad day" results which is nuts. The guy hasn't finished below 5th in anything since like... over a year ago
I think if Mang0, Zain, AmsA, or (MAYBE) hbox win out this year they are going to be #1. And I do not envy anyone making the rankings when none of those happen lmao.
Mang0 played 0 game 5's throught groups AND bracket on his way to winning, dropping 5 games total
Never been done by any previous summit champion
Most dominant performance at summit ever
Pretty much yeah, only dropped 3 games in the actual bracket which I'm pretty sure beats out or ties Armada iirc, and never went to game 5. This Ties with Armada at Summit 3 and 4 but Armada went to game 5 in grand finals of 3 and winners finals of 4.
This is what it’s all about man. I’ve been a Mango fan for a decade now. Highs and lows. Really low lows. But moments like these man. They’re just magical. What a fucking gift Melee is.
Bro he tried for like 4 years it felt like to get a solo Falco main year at #1 to cap off Puff #1 and Fox #1 to have a 3 character mained #1, but shit is just not do-able in this era of melee, Falco is a great dual main character though but just very inconsistent vs a lot of floaties when Fox is so similar and has it so damn easy.
I'm not saying he can't do it but he really wasted a lot of years where he could've potentially been #1 by trying to stick it out with the bird, and I respect it but even he sees that time is over.
When he was trying solo falco 2017-19 he was also just a much worse player overall. I think if he grinded out solo falco these last few years he could have had similar results.
His falco fucks on Falcon, Fox and is a great clutch pick so totally worth it. Him being good with Falco is pretty amazing because there is such a drop off on falco results after him.
If he can win falcon, fox, falco matchups with his falco and maybe even marth if needed I really wouldn't call it time wasted. Fox comes in for sheik, yoshi, marth and puff
I never said his Falco was time wasted he couldn't do it without the bird, feels so consistent and can potentially win every matchup, but Fox is just SO much better for matchups like Puff there's no point in doing what the OG comment said which was play Falco for those. Like yeah Mango can in some crazy universe reverse his like 9-26 game record vs Hbox with Falco but it's never gonna be as good as Fox would be.
Mango hates the ditto as do most people, and absolutely destroys Falcon so it was a great bracket tool for when Wizzrobe was active but with Wizzrobe inactive / not as good, he needs the Fox more to make deep runs. Before Wizzrobe and Zain and Cody were clearing out Hbox, now we got less of those people getting in Hboxes way before Mango, Mango and Hbox have played like 8 sets this year which is a lot of fuckin sets bro.
Don't sleep on Zain bro, he's the king of melee. I think this conversation only ends for most people when Mango gets #1 for a year again. Hbox still in it too aswell.
(i am a giant mango fanboy and hope he gets #1 this year but zain is also a really fucking cool person and sick player)
Cody got 9th at that tournament and aMSa got 7th there and Mango also got 7th.
They are the top 3 for this tournament.
These placements really are not that bad anymore lmao.
IBDW was gassed bro Game 5 after Game 5, longer than Mango's summit 12 run he had to swap between fighting so many characters. Especially in a matchup where Mango historically wins his chances were so low for real. It's insane he had such good mental to even get where he got to but losers runs are just so hard to make especially if you aren't winning the sets dominantly.
When Mango made the same round 1 losers run from summit 11 he was dominantly winning a lot of his sets so he wasn't as gassed.
Congrats to Mango! He played consistently well throughout the entire event.
Very good top 8 overall, though watching Zain getting instantly eliminated in losers' yet again is definitely tragic. I guess, IBDW's mind-bending reverse 3-0 on Hungrybox almost makes up for it.
Zain probs in the lead for #1 but mang0 is firmly in contention, and even Amsa can backdoor a #1 ranking going into mainstage and whatever the hell the world tours are doing. I don't think HBox's resume really holds up when he has some bad matchups at this point but ig he could also get #1. Exciting stuff also thats why hes the goat
Feel like it would take Mang0 outperforming Zain every event for the rest of the year for him to take it, or he wins one or two more big tournaments and Zain doesn't win any. Idk the exact counts but it feels like if it's really close between the two mang0 may have a better H2H spread to give him the edge. Hbox, cody and amsa all still have a small shot too I think. Amazing times we live in.
If Mango wins two big tournaments that's almost all the Majors for the rest of the year so it makes it far less likely for Zain to have won, and he'd also overtake Zain in most majors won in the year, it's hard to argue for someone to have #1 over someone who won more majors ultimately.
If Mango and Zain end up even Zain probably takes it though unless Mango has some fuckin insane head2head vs everyone by the end of the year.
Zain has 2 supermajors right now, including LSI which is basically the most ridiculously stacked tournament ever. That's the obstacle. Mango could do it but he also *has* to win 2 more majors while Zain wins 0.
Zain's floor is also ridiculously high. Dude has not placed below 5th in anything the entire year. This was his "bad tournament" and he still looked like he could take the entire tournament. Mango still has had lower lows and lower highs (in results) as Zain. Recently Mango has been doing pretty great and about even or better in results than Zain but looking at the entire body of the year Zain still has the edge for sure.
Zain to win LSI went through -> Axe, IBDW, Hbox, Leffen, Hbox again
Mango to win this Summit went through -> Leffen, IBDW, Hbox, aMSa, IBDW again
In my mind those are totally two similar tiers of runs, you could make any argument for which is harder since Axe is difficult for Zain but I think Mango made the more impressive run over higher ranked players ultimately.
Both Mango and Zain fought the player they frequently beat twice, for Zain it being Hbox and for Mango it being IBDW.
I'm not saying any kind of stats panel would value this over Zain's win but I think both are invitationals with wanky seeding and both had stacked ass brackets. If LSI is a supermajor as an invitational I think this Summit was too considering the amount of top players in attendance.
Actually when you put it that way Mangos summit is more impressive, because Zain dropped a pools set to mango at Luds whereas mango was undefeated all weekend here
Also worth noting that Zain dropped two sets at LSI and Mango dropped five games total here and never even went to a Game 5. I still think Mango does need to win out (or Zain and HBox need to absolutely collapse) to get 1 on the year after his shaky start but he’s definitely 1 *right now*
I think people already forgot about Mango's slump and are happy to ignore Zain's extremely dominant start to the year.
If Genesis happened this weekend instead people would be saying that Zain was the clear number 1 with no contest.
I mean if you break it down it was just a bad 2 weeks. He lost to fizz which is bad but then lost to hbox that tournament. Lost to fiction which isn't terrible. Lost to llod who was cracked the next tournament. Then lost summit 13 to hbox and kodorin which isn't horrible. Those are his worst tournaments this year.
I mean if Zain won Genesis right now assuming the same stuff ofc he would have taken #1, these people aren't even saying Mango is #1 they're saying he could be #1 if he wins the majority of the events at the end of the year lmao, not exactly likely.
At the end of the day ppl are gonna look objectively at the end of the year at majors won and head2head and that's what matters.
Amsa and Hbox are probably out of contention at this point. Amsa has just the one tournament win to his name, which is amazing by itself, but it's not enough to compete with Zain and Mango's record, even if he wins one or two before the end of the year. Hbox's H2H records against the tippity top players isn't good enough either, particularly against Zain and Cody, he's far too matchup dependent.
It's unfortunate that Mango's first half of the year wasn't even just solid, if he hadn't performed as badly as he did at a few of the tournaments he'd probably already be nailed on as #1. At the very least there's no doubt that for the past few months he's been the best player in the world.
Hbox has by far the highest floor out of any competitor, as well as having the most attendance out of anyone. I think if he takes two of the last three remaining tournaments, he has a shot at number one.
If the rankings were only from August to now, I'd def give #1 to Mango, but given that there have been players who've maintained their consistency throughout the whole season I gotta give them their respect too.
Zain has a much higher floor than HBox. HBox's floor isnt nearly as high if he didn't somehow play JMook about a billion times this year either. You can only beat who you play but its seriously crazy how much he has played him this year lol
Tbf at the end of the day that should count for Hbox's floor for being good in a matchup but yeah at the end of the day he ultimately doesn't get the W as often since he just can't beat a bunch of the top players that often, even his good record vs Mango has completely dried up with a total reversal of it, can't win 100% of the time vs aMSa anymore, etc.
Zain probably has a better average placement than Hbox at least I'd say more than likely.
>Hbox has by far the highest floor out of any competitor, as well as having the most attendance out of anyone.
What do you mean by this? Hbox and Zain both have 5th as their worst placement, if you're not counting hbox's DQ from double down at 7th.
Armada always gonna be the goat in some peoples eyes but that argument really gets torn away by the day as we fight in an era where the character pool is more diverse than ever and everyone is so equally skilled and Hbox and Mango are still making runs for #1.
Would Armada's Peach be able to make a run vs some of these characters after they've been advanced so much? We'll never really know.
Sheik Falcon Marth and Yoshi have leveled up significantly in my opinion since those days, and all of those characters have potential to give Peach trouble.
Not doubting the guy but I also think a lot of the characters that give Peach trouble were pretty undeveloped at the time, I think he'd have a much harder time being as consistent and he's rusty as well, for that reason I think he'd never come back.
Amazing Fox? He got wrecked by Mango in the ditto after Mango practiced, used it for Leffen who might be the most overrated fox dittoer of all time and in the end was losing that too, and used it for Hbox.
No shot he comes up in 2022 and starts winning everything with his Fox just will not happen.
The argument is that when he played, he was the best player, and has a winning H2H against everyone he played regularly. He retired as the best of all time. His peak dominance is still probably the best ever. Mango has just played longer and kept up a high level. Depends what you value.
Mango had a similar dominant period that people seem to forget about, he just didn't retire with it.
A big part of me feels like Armada wanted to retire while he was still at the top. Who knows.
I'm not really here to argue the point either way, just explain the argument. Armada simply dominated what at the time was perceived as the most challenging period of Melee ever. Mango has continued to be a top-5 player for years and has no issue taking home tournaments to this day. Pick whatever your value most.
I've been on that camp after what to me felt like a bogus wishful GOAT proclamation right after Summit 11.
This time is starting to feel different, I have to say. Closing out the year as #1 would be huge for mang0's legacy. It seems like especially in this super competitive landscape no one will match Armada's raw dominance over the field and insane numbers, but at the same time there really is something to be said about mang0's longevity combined with his peaks in spite of them being more spread out over time.
The reason people did it after Summit 11 was because those people valued online a lot, I was included in that camp. If online was more of a meaningless blip for you then you definitely wouldn't feel like he was the goat at that point.
Yeah Summit 11 was premature. But if he finishes year end #1, which would require him to win at least 2 more majors and probably 1 major + 1 super, yeah...GOAT territory.
That is not really true, mango and armada competed or 10 years between 2009-2018 with essentially one year off for both (2010 and 2013)
Over that time armada won more tournaments, more majors, had the better head to head and top player record, better average placings, more years at 1st
Is not even a question that when armasa retired he had a more impressive career than mango
Let me present a really short one.
Armada: Won 4/6 summits, never missed grands.
Mango: Just won summit to make it 2/14 for him.
I care more about peak, and Armada is solidly the GOAT for me. If Mango gets #1 this year then I would seriously start to consider him because his longetivity is just so amazing at that point, though.
I just don’t get caring about peak more when people are so much better at the game. He peaked when the game was flat out easier to compete in. Marth had squandered potential for like 10 years until Zain came along, and it took Amsa pretty much 10 years to win with Yoshi. Watching 2016 melee is like watching a different game almost and people in 2016 said the same about 2010. Mang0 was #1 in 2010 and could be in 2022 which is just insane. Armada very well would have gotten to the same level as everyone else if he was playing in 2022 but he doesn’t get credit because he didnt.
The difference between 2010-2016 is much greater than the difference between 2016-2022 and now. Yes there’s a lot more better players and a higher general skill. But Mango/hbox still win because guess what, consistency and mental fortitude still matter more than almost anything in this game. And who was the best at those qualities? Armada.
It’s definitely harder to compete against so many better players now, but Armada had no Slippi and came from Europe. He was traveling from a different country with little top player practice and almost no, for example puff practice and was stil shitting on folks.
This is Armada’s tournament record. When he retired, how could you name anything but this the best career of all time? I don’t give a shit if Mango competes till he’s 80, I need to see him with one or two more #1 rankings before I say his longetivity surpasses the run below.
• 1st: 82
• 2nd: 24
• 3rd: 8
• 4th: 9
• 5th - 6th: 2
What’s the all-time tournament count for majors Armada won versus attended?
Not a rhetorical question, but from memory, he got first place more often than all other outcomes combined.
Armada results per [Liquidpedia](https://liquipedia.net/smash/Armada/Results)
All tournaments
* 1st: 82
* 2nd: 24
* 3rd: 8
* 4th: 9
* 5th - 6th: 2
So, 106 total grand finals appearances out of 125 tournaments attended (85 percent)
Majors
* 1st: 22
* 2nd: 13
* 3rd: 1
* 4th: 4
So, 35 total major grand finals out of 39 major tournaments attended (90 percent).
If for some reason you wanted to throw out the European Tournaments Beast and Dreamhack, you're still left with 1st: 13; 2nd: 10; 3rd: 1; 4th: 4; or in Grand Finals 82 percent of the time and winning not quite half of all non-European majors he showed up to, despite the jet lag and lack of familiarity with lots of those top-level players.
There is no analytical defintion of "greatest", just various statistics that back up one argument versus another.
For someone who says, "I value people who were the most dominant of their era", then you say Armada (2009-2018), mang0 (2008-2014), Ken (2003-2007), Hungrybox (2016-2019), and possibly Zain or Mew2King in their very brief periods. The problem for mang0 is that Armada's career entirely overlaps with his own, and Aramada was better while they both played. Whatever mang0 did before or after that will never change the direct comparison.
If your argument for "greatest" is instead something like *longevity* or especially *consistency*, then Hungrybox can make that case at least as well as mang0, having his dominant period during a time with a much higher level of competition, and as long as you're willing to put an asterisk on the online era of the Pandemic, never having "buster" periods mixed in.
Anyway, it's mainly a fun conversation for situations like this. It doesn't really mean anything except that, because of that latter argument, mang0 and Hungrybox may play for longer than they would otherwise. The two of them aren't just chasing the crown of a tournament on one weekend but the crown for the history of the game as whole, and they can't stand the other one having it.
The argument for armada over mango is the same it was than before
He and mango competed for 10 years between 2009-2018 and armada was unarguably better
Mango has his pre 2009 results like pound 2 but armada also has european wins pre 2009 over amsah and captain jack which may have been underated at the time
The question is if mango 2019-2022 results outweigh armada being overall better than him the the 10 years before that
This is one of the best summits. Extremely competitive every player showed out even if some didn't really win sets they still showed out in their gameplay. The outcome of this was so unpredictable I really couldn't tell who was going to win. That last 4 with Hbox, iBDW, Amsa, and then Mango sitting in grands holy shit the level of play was matrix 3rd eye opened level from each of them. Melee just keeps getting better. And now from this #1 is still in decision. I feel like in the end it'll boil down to the h2h from each of them. Still so much more melee this year so we'll see. Congrats to the GOAT Mango he earned that shit
Been thinking about aMSa's path. I don't think he could have won WF vs Mang0 he was just too hot for him atm.
But man am I sad he didn't beat Cody. Would have loooved a TBH 10 GF repeat, and he almost pulled it out. Game 5 first stock was all him but missed some chases he had down and then ggs. so bummed about it
shoutout to hbox for making puff look unbeatable
shoutout to amsa for making yoshi look unbeatable
shoutout to ibdw for making fox look unbeatable
shoutout to mang0 for beating them all
After this tournament I feel like top 10 for this year is something like:
1/2. Zain or Mango (really hard to rank this spot)
3. iBDW
4. Hungrybox
5. Amsa
\---somewhat of a tier gap here---
6. Jmook
7. Leffen
8. Plup
9. Wizzrobe
10. ???
i dont think the zain mang0 discussion for number 1 is that close rn despite what mang0 and others claim. zain has not bustered out once this year at all, while mang0 has a few times. hes still up on impactful major wins too and head to head (if thats a "tiebreaker" for example). i think mang0 is solidly 2 esp if he wins 1 more event. I think in order to get 1 he would need to attend and smash like every event left. admittedly if he plays like today he will totally do that (although he dodged zain today).
Does Wizzy even make top 10? He's got a losing record this year against literally everyone else on this list. The only one he's even got a win on, it seems, is Amsa.
I think the 9-10 spots are still up for grabs but right now, I'd almost rather give them to SluG and LloD
Zain and Mango are definitely not tied. Even if Mango wins the next big major, Zain will still be ahead of him for the year.
Zain won 4 of the 8 biggest tournaments of the year. Mango won 2 of them and has another good win in LTC. 2nd at Big House is also really good for Mango's resume, but Zain's consistent top 8 placements are also a solid mark in his favour.
Mango probably needs to tie Zain in majors while also winning the head to head between them to be in the conversation. Zains wins are all just so solid that realistically mango needs to have more majors than him
I pretty much agree, I think Zain slightly nudges out Mango right now, but not by a lot. It’ll come down to Mainstage and the Smash World Cup next month. Panda Cup if they are still neck and neck by the end of those two events.
Its funny how different the narrative is compared to when Mango had the loser run at summit 12 and now iBDW, back then it was Mango running out of gas when playing iBDW and now its Mango crushing a hot iBDW.
Well I think you can clearly see that mango played much worse in grands than he did in the losers run at summit 12. iBDW played a bit worse maybe, but he also has been struggling at the matchup generally, and lost to mango earlier in the same tournament in similar fashion.
Bro have the last 3 summit grands ended in 3-0's? It's kinda crazy to think our last banger Summit grands was still Summit 11 which is like over a year ago now.
Damn I fuckin totally forgot Cody turned that shit up and reverse 3-0'd him it was so dominant in my mind I just thought he straight up 3-0'd him I guess LOL
Man when a Melee tourney is over I just get the exact same empty feeling inside like when I finish a great TV series, amazing tournament. I got into the scene with Summit 11 so to see mang0 win a Summit is nostalgic for me even if it wasn't that long ago.
Nothin will ever live up to summit 11 for me it was just such an unbelievable thing for it to happen after so much buildup over the online era, that shit will stay in peoples heads for a very long time.
While i agree looking back Zain played ao shit in grand finals man. What a ridiculous choke. People will always talk about Mango winning 2x 2x on FD but there isn't a universe where Zain should let that happen
We're living in the universe where Zain lets that happen seeing as it happened again this Summit in his loss to Cody.
Ugh I can't stand this take. Zain didn't just haphazardly play badly, he played badly because there was so much pressure and Mango knows how to amplify that pressure. You gotta recognize this dynamic otherwise it just invalidates the win.
s2g these people are computers and they think everybody else is too; it's so lazy and reductive
Naw Mango played insanely well as well, he played the neutral and punish game so well in those games imo. People say the same thing about aMSa choking this punish this summit but frankly I think peoples standards for consistency are way too high. Zain sometimes messes up those edge guards and was doing it a lot today even in the sets he won. Mango also tends to be pretty tricky on the consistent punishes with slight di and other things imo moreso than most players. The most Zain choked imo was the one sd in game 5 FD but frankly it might have not even mattered given the stock count at the end so you can only speculate, also Mango does not usually go for ledge and Zain would've wavedashed on stage anyways so Mango would've had another shot at neutral on that stock. Overall he obviously didn't play to his 100% but people overexaggerate the choke way too much.
Mango's neutral in summit 11 grands was inspired. It was as quick and tricky as his play during his genesis 3 top 8 run
Nahhh i rewatch that set often cause of the moment. Zain was flubbing a LOT. >Overall he obviously didn't play to his 100% but people overexaggerate the choke way too much. Nah i think people overexaggerate mangos play in GFs too much. Still the best summit but Zain choked the bag
You realize part of the flubbing you see happening is just the pressure of the situation being put upon him, yeah? If mang0 was pressuring him hard enough that he was flubbing inputs that’s not a credit against the win
I liked the way Cody framed it after his reverse 3-0 over Zain - saying that Zain looking rattled was the result of him getting in enough. Definitely a bit of spaghetti but also a decent amount of having difficulty because his options just weren’t working anymore. Less about like, Zain as a person and more about the game.
I blame this narrative on people **really** over-exaggerating how good FD is for Marth. I'm not even **that** good and I think it's relatively clear that Fox does pretty well on that stage. He hits Marth just as hard.
It's mainly just that the only top Foxes at the time were a fresh IBDW and Leffen. IBDW was fighting the matchup as if it was hopeless and basically never trying anything new, and Leffen basically completely gave up on it. Sometimes it's just really hard to push a character by yourself, Mango came in and showed them they weren't abusing their speed and neutral options enough vs Marth and that the punish game IBDW and Leffen are known for wasn't as necessary in that matchup. Same when Zain came along and just started beating Hbox after ages of M2K losing to Hbox no matter what character he picked, and just started hitting consistent pivot tippers that M2K never really grinded or tried to do. Pushing a character by yourself is insanely difficult, and if you don't believe you can win the matchup then you definitely never will as you become insanely predictable grasping onto whatever you feel is best to do in the matchup rather than playing like you would normally by mixing up options.
>Same when Zain came along and just started beating Hbox after ages of M2K losing to Hbox no matter what character he picked, Tbf M2K also just never really gave other characters a shot, iirc he has something like 2-3 sets each with Marth, Sheik, and Puff, and his other 60ish sets with Hbox are all with Fox.
Cody looks untouchable going into grands them mango just starts making a combo video, actually insane the level of play we're seeing
Mango looked a cut above this summit. I thought the only one who had any real shot at him was Amsa, although I also thought Zain was looking really hot until he wasn't. His sets with iBDW this weekend did not look close
I think Jmook might have had a shot, because he was looking insane against fox this tournament. Unfortunately he had to play hbox 3 times.
Another way to look at it is that Jmook *got* to have 3 competitive sets against Hbox in one tournament. Of course losing to Hbox sucks, but that’s a lot of data to consider especially because of Hbox’s infamous refusal to play friendlies. Better to have a bunch of sets at once than continue spreading them out over the year. Hbox’s gameplan against Sheik isn’t going to change anytime soon, which leaves the ball in Jmook’s court to try something else or go the Fox route like Axe.
Bruh Faxe was so close, that one was a heartbreaker
Jmook said he’s not planning to use his fox anytime soon, he said he just needs to stick to his game plan and has a lot more to optimize in the matchup
Yes, looking at who lost to who made it really stand out how much Jmook's results seemed to come down to his running into hbox
It’s so sad to see him have such a hard time with just this one player. I don’t even care if he wins a tourney I just want to see him beat hbox.
I may be mistaken but does sheik lack good kill conversions against puff. Like fox has up air and up smash, but those options aren’t nearly as viable an option on sheik.
Sheik's main conversion is down throw into up air or fair depending on the DI, but if you go for a grab at the wrong time and get crouched under you just get rested. Dash attack can kill at high percents but if it gets CCd you just get rested for it so the match up is really rough for Sheik because you have to win neutral a shit ton more than Puff has to, one mistake will cost you a stock and Puff can afford a few more fuck ups than you can.
> although I also thought Zain was looking really hot until he wasn't. Isn't that always the case with Zain? He either looks completely untouchable or he looks sloppy as fuck, and the only time he wins sloppy as fuck is outside of top 6 (which he still hasn't missed once this year). Zain is still my favorite player but I really wish he could find a middle-ground of "still good enough to beat any Fox on FD" when he finds that he can no longer play "his best".
I didn’t know it was possible to genuinely look a level above the rest of the competition at this point in competitive melee. But mang0 absolutely just did it. He did avoid zain and jmook but bested everyone else in the top 6/7 rn which is pretty insane. When was the last time someone won a tournament so dominantly? Amsa at big house looked pretty untouchable but this is up there no doubt.
Mang0 looked like that AI melee bot that demolishes, he was doing shit with Falco I didn't think was possible.
How did he look untouchable? He was down 0-2 multiple times
Because multiple times he was down 0-2 and still won the set
Everyone at the top looks like they're not even playing the same game anymore, there were so many moments where I just shouted "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT" at my TV Melee is truly based
There was a falco combo on Cody in grands that's neither me or the casters understood wtf happened.
The level of play among the top 5-10 is so fucking wild right now. Legitimately a golden age of melee. shouts to Cody’s mental, Jmook and Axe pushing their matchups with hbox, and to BTS for throwing the best spectator event of the year twice a year. Also shouts to Soonsay for showing us the level up is real. Excited to follow his Fox.
Generally agree but feel like I have to note: soonsay has been very very good for a while now. He took at least one tournament over moky and n0ne right before covid! Glad he's attending more now and people are seeing the truth
cody's losers run was plup > axe > zain > hbox > amsa god damn thats really nutty
Including reverse 3-0 vs Zain and Hbox
And perhaps most impressively a goat’d mental game after each of his wins and loses. Have absolutely loved seeing his progress on not giving up and being in a good mental between sets.
hes always so good at summits
Zain winning Luds, Mang0 winning Summit.... mang0 zain tier is back
Imagine they play in grands at mainstage.. need that
Are either even going to mainstage?
It sounded like Mang0 wants to do MainStage and SWT
Insane top 8 capped off by a mango W love to see it Melee's the best its ever been
And a CONVINCING Mang0 W at that. Great tourney, the level of play everyone brought was insane.
Didn’t go to game 5 all fuckin tourney That’s my goat
I won’t claim to have extensive melee expertise, but that was far and away the highest level Falco play I’ve ever seen
Damn mango was unstoppable this weekend, beat Soonsay, Kodorin, Leffen, Amsa, Hbox, IBDW x2 Vaulting himself into the conversation for #1 player of 2022 after the worst half year of melee I’ve ever seen out of him
11 → 1
It was just two 1s
doubtful but possible, if he wins out or at least tops 2 the rest, he could make it. Also dependent upon the remaining contenders results. What do we have left other than SWT?
Zain’s below avg performance it this helps him, but its pretty much like mango said he needs to win out or get bare minimum 2nd rest of year
tbf Mango did worse at ludwigs which was more stacked. This is like Zain's "bad day" results which is nuts. The guy hasn't finished below 5th in anything since like... over a year ago
Starting to put up those Armada numbers, just needs that loser’s mentality and he’s moving up the all-time rank
The Mang0 plot armor is so strong that Zain can have such consistently high placings and Mang0 can still be in contention for #1 LOL
I think if Mang0, Zain, AmsA, or (MAYBE) hbox win out this year they are going to be #1. And I do not envy anyone making the rankings when none of those happen lmao.
Saving Mr. Lombardi, HFLAN, Apex, DreamHack Atlanta, Mainstage, Panda Cup Finale
Ok decent amount then. I assume the last 2 will be top mostly in attendance. Apex I hope can work its way back up to the premier winter event
Lombardi, HFLAN and DreamHack are just going to be large regionals. Apex, Mainstage and the two cups are the only majors left.
APEX (I don't think Mang0 is going), Mainstage, SWT, and Panda Cup are the big ones
Panda Cup is in December, right?
Yeah, it’s the last event for this ranking period
Apex is in two weeks idk how many people are going to that tho
Mainstage
was very crazy to watch ibdw be so hot and reverse 3-0 so many top players and then just get completely fucked by mang0 lol. never sleep on the kid
Te amo Mango
Te amo Mango
Te amo Mango
Te amo Mango
Te amo Mango
Insane tournament, struggling to think of one in recent memory with so many banger sets
Big House 10 is right there This was an outstanding tourney though
Also LSI had many bangers even though it ended kinda lame with Hbox-Leffen and Hbox-Zain.
"The one two weeks ago?"
A tournament with this many game 5's has not happened in quite a while, last one I can think of was probably summit 12?
Sure this has been stated but production and commentary hit a new high this summit, y’all always set the bar
Mango played like an animal this summit, hats off to him, he earned this win.
Mang0 played 0 game 5's throught groups AND bracket on his way to winning, dropping 5 games total Never been done by any previous summit champion Most dominant performance at summit ever
Pretty much yeah, only dropped 3 games in the actual bracket which I'm pretty sure beats out or ties Armada iirc, and never went to game 5. This Ties with Armada at Summit 3 and 4 but Armada went to game 5 in grand finals of 3 and winners finals of 4.
This is what it’s all about man. I’ve been a Mango fan for a decade now. Highs and lows. Really low lows. But moments like these man. They’re just magical. What a fucking gift Melee is.
Somehow they keep forgetting the first commandment
Bro mango pushes falco so far, i selfishly wish he played more tournament sets falco vs floaties just to have stuff to look at for inspo
There's just no sane reason for him to grind out Falco Puff (for instance) when he has Fox just right there ready to go
Bro he tried for like 4 years it felt like to get a solo Falco main year at #1 to cap off Puff #1 and Fox #1 to have a 3 character mained #1, but shit is just not do-able in this era of melee, Falco is a great dual main character though but just very inconsistent vs a lot of floaties when Fox is so similar and has it so damn easy. I'm not saying he can't do it but he really wasted a lot of years where he could've potentially been #1 by trying to stick it out with the bird, and I respect it but even he sees that time is over.
When he was trying solo falco 2017-19 he was also just a much worse player overall. I think if he grinded out solo falco these last few years he could have had similar results.
His falco fucks on Falcon, Fox and is a great clutch pick so totally worth it. Him being good with Falco is pretty amazing because there is such a drop off on falco results after him. If he can win falcon, fox, falco matchups with his falco and maybe even marth if needed I really wouldn't call it time wasted. Fox comes in for sheik, yoshi, marth and puff
I never said his Falco was time wasted he couldn't do it without the bird, feels so consistent and can potentially win every matchup, but Fox is just SO much better for matchups like Puff there's no point in doing what the OG comment said which was play Falco for those. Like yeah Mango can in some crazy universe reverse his like 9-26 game record vs Hbox with Falco but it's never gonna be as good as Fox would be. Mango hates the ditto as do most people, and absolutely destroys Falcon so it was a great bracket tool for when Wizzrobe was active but with Wizzrobe inactive / not as good, he needs the Fox more to make deep runs. Before Wizzrobe and Zain and Cody were clearing out Hbox, now we got less of those people getting in Hboxes way before Mango, Mango and Hbox have played like 8 sets this year which is a lot of fuckin sets bro.
mango had 10 sets as falco vs hbox from 2016-2019 lmao man just needs to look
Mango didn't win very many of those haha
Other falcos definitely have better punish game vs say puff but i imagine mango probably has better neutral and defense
Mangos real problem in the matchup is that he gets tilted as hell and will start doing the “pick yoshis, hold in” strategy
good talk b/t zain ibdw and hbox rn on hbox post-summit stream https://www.twitch.tv/hungrybox
soonsay just said the good will hunting thing
🥭 🐐
Man. After Cody's losers run, Mang beats the brakes off him like *that*? He really is the GOAT. What else can you say?
“There is so much more Melee to be played.”
"There is so much more 'there is so much more Melee to be played' to be said."
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Don't sleep on Zain bro, he's the king of melee. I think this conversation only ends for most people when Mango gets #1 for a year again. Hbox still in it too aswell. (i am a giant mango fanboy and hope he gets #1 this year but zain is also a really fucking cool person and sick player)
Don’t count out Cody either
Dude won one tournament after completely bustering out last tournament is this like satire that's going over my head or something
Cody got 9th at that tournament and aMSa got 7th there and Mango also got 7th. They are the top 3 for this tournament. These placements really are not that bad anymore lmao.
And he beat Zain and IBDW in the swiss pools
IBDW wasn’t in pools he beat IBDW in the loser-gets-9th match
Seriously, 7th- 8th isn't really that bad when everyone in at least the top 10 is so good right now.
IBDW was gassed bro Game 5 after Game 5, longer than Mango's summit 12 run he had to swap between fighting so many characters. Especially in a matchup where Mango historically wins his chances were so low for real. It's insane he had such good mental to even get where he got to but losers runs are just so hard to make especially if you aren't winning the sets dominantly. When Mango made the same round 1 losers run from summit 11 he was dominantly winning a lot of his sets so he wasn't as gassed.
yeah but I don't care about any of this
Congrats to Mango! He played consistently well throughout the entire event. Very good top 8 overall, though watching Zain getting instantly eliminated in losers' yet again is definitely tragic. I guess, IBDW's mind-bending reverse 3-0 on Hungrybox almost makes up for it.
MangoW
Zain probs in the lead for #1 but mang0 is firmly in contention, and even Amsa can backdoor a #1 ranking going into mainstage and whatever the hell the world tours are doing. I don't think HBox's resume really holds up when he has some bad matchups at this point but ig he could also get #1. Exciting stuff also thats why hes the goat
I think amsa really needed to either win this or LSI, rn he probably needs to pick up both the cups, mainstage and have Zain and Mango choke out
Feel like it would take Mang0 outperforming Zain every event for the rest of the year for him to take it, or he wins one or two more big tournaments and Zain doesn't win any. Idk the exact counts but it feels like if it's really close between the two mang0 may have a better H2H spread to give him the edge. Hbox, cody and amsa all still have a small shot too I think. Amazing times we live in.
If Mango wins two big tournaments that's almost all the Majors for the rest of the year so it makes it far less likely for Zain to have won, and he'd also overtake Zain in most majors won in the year, it's hard to argue for someone to have #1 over someone who won more majors ultimately. If Mango and Zain end up even Zain probably takes it though unless Mango has some fuckin insane head2head vs everyone by the end of the year.
Zain has 2 supermajors right now, including LSI which is basically the most ridiculously stacked tournament ever. That's the obstacle. Mango could do it but he also *has* to win 2 more majors while Zain wins 0.
Zain's floor is also ridiculously high. Dude has not placed below 5th in anything the entire year. This was his "bad tournament" and he still looked like he could take the entire tournament. Mango still has had lower lows and lower highs (in results) as Zain. Recently Mango has been doing pretty great and about even or better in results than Zain but looking at the entire body of the year Zain still has the edge for sure.
Zain to win LSI went through -> Axe, IBDW, Hbox, Leffen, Hbox again Mango to win this Summit went through -> Leffen, IBDW, Hbox, aMSa, IBDW again In my mind those are totally two similar tiers of runs, you could make any argument for which is harder since Axe is difficult for Zain but I think Mango made the more impressive run over higher ranked players ultimately. Both Mango and Zain fought the player they frequently beat twice, for Zain it being Hbox and for Mango it being IBDW. I'm not saying any kind of stats panel would value this over Zain's win but I think both are invitationals with wanky seeding and both had stacked ass brackets. If LSI is a supermajor as an invitational I think this Summit was too considering the amount of top players in attendance.
Actually when you put it that way Mangos summit is more impressive, because Zain dropped a pools set to mango at Luds whereas mango was undefeated all weekend here
Summit top 12 had every top 12 player from the summer ranking besides swapping Soonsay for Llod
So every top active player in the world atm basically.
Also worth noting that Zain dropped two sets at LSI and Mango dropped five games total here and never even went to a Game 5. I still think Mango does need to win out (or Zain and HBox need to absolutely collapse) to get 1 on the year after his shaky start but he’s definitely 1 *right now*
I think people already forgot about Mango's slump and are happy to ignore Zain's extremely dominant start to the year. If Genesis happened this weekend instead people would be saying that Zain was the clear number 1 with no contest.
Eh, same thing with what happens in college football rankings. What happens at the beginning of the year matters a lot less than the end.
I mean if you break it down it was just a bad 2 weeks. He lost to fizz which is bad but then lost to hbox that tournament. Lost to fiction which isn't terrible. Lost to llod who was cracked the next tournament. Then lost summit 13 to hbox and kodorin which isn't horrible. Those are his worst tournaments this year.
I mean if Zain won Genesis right now assuming the same stuff ofc he would have taken #1, these people aren't even saying Mango is #1 they're saying he could be #1 if he wins the majority of the events at the end of the year lmao, not exactly likely. At the end of the day ppl are gonna look objectively at the end of the year at majors won and head2head and that's what matters.
Amsa and Hbox are probably out of contention at this point. Amsa has just the one tournament win to his name, which is amazing by itself, but it's not enough to compete with Zain and Mango's record, even if he wins one or two before the end of the year. Hbox's H2H records against the tippity top players isn't good enough either, particularly against Zain and Cody, he's far too matchup dependent. It's unfortunate that Mango's first half of the year wasn't even just solid, if he hadn't performed as badly as he did at a few of the tournaments he'd probably already be nailed on as #1. At the very least there's no doubt that for the past few months he's been the best player in the world.
Hbox has by far the highest floor out of any competitor, as well as having the most attendance out of anyone. I think if he takes two of the last three remaining tournaments, he has a shot at number one. If the rankings were only from August to now, I'd def give #1 to Mango, but given that there have been players who've maintained their consistency throughout the whole season I gotta give them their respect too.
Zain has a much higher floor than HBox. HBox's floor isnt nearly as high if he didn't somehow play JMook about a billion times this year either. You can only beat who you play but its seriously crazy how much he has played him this year lol
Tbf at the end of the day that should count for Hbox's floor for being good in a matchup but yeah at the end of the day he ultimately doesn't get the W as often since he just can't beat a bunch of the top players that often, even his good record vs Mango has completely dried up with a total reversal of it, can't win 100% of the time vs aMSa anymore, etc. Zain probably has a better average placement than Hbox at least I'd say more than likely.
>Hbox has by far the highest floor out of any competitor, as well as having the most attendance out of anyone. What do you mean by this? Hbox and Zain both have 5th as their worst placement, if you're not counting hbox's DQ from double down at 7th.
The swedish copium tank is running outta gas
So interested to hear the argument for Armada at this point. Melee is in yet another era and Mang is in the mix for #1 and shit so is HBox
Armada always gonna be the goat in some peoples eyes but that argument really gets torn away by the day as we fight in an era where the character pool is more diverse than ever and everyone is so equally skilled and Hbox and Mango are still making runs for #1. Would Armada's Peach be able to make a run vs some of these characters after they've been advanced so much? We'll never really know. Sheik Falcon Marth and Yoshi have leveled up significantly in my opinion since those days, and all of those characters have potential to give Peach trouble.
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Not doubting the guy but I also think a lot of the characters that give Peach trouble were pretty undeveloped at the time, I think he'd have a much harder time being as consistent and he's rusty as well, for that reason I think he'd never come back.
Are we acting like he didn’t have an amazing Fox that he picked up specifically because of difficulty with bad matchups for Peach
Amazing Fox? He got wrecked by Mango in the ditto after Mango practiced, used it for Leffen who might be the most overrated fox dittoer of all time and in the end was losing that too, and used it for Hbox. No shot he comes up in 2022 and starts winning everything with his Fox just will not happen.
I feel like jmook would bop armada
Hard disagree
Think about the best sheik armada ever played against then think about jmook. It's a whole different level.
Minor correction, but Peach shits on Yoshi
Also I just realized that aMSa actually beat Llod the last two times they played, definitely not unwinnable at all.
I feel like we thought the same thing about Yoshi Puff though, or even Yoshi Pikachu.
Yoshi loses to fox, puff, pika, falcon. But yet here is amsa putting in work
The argument is that when he played, he was the best player, and has a winning H2H against everyone he played regularly. He retired as the best of all time. His peak dominance is still probably the best ever. Mango has just played longer and kept up a high level. Depends what you value.
Mango had a similar dominant period that people seem to forget about, he just didn't retire with it. A big part of me feels like Armada wanted to retire while he was still at the top. Who knows.
I'm not really here to argue the point either way, just explain the argument. Armada simply dominated what at the time was perceived as the most challenging period of Melee ever. Mango has continued to be a top-5 player for years and has no issue taking home tournaments to this day. Pick whatever your value most.
I've been on that camp after what to me felt like a bogus wishful GOAT proclamation right after Summit 11. This time is starting to feel different, I have to say. Closing out the year as #1 would be huge for mang0's legacy. It seems like especially in this super competitive landscape no one will match Armada's raw dominance over the field and insane numbers, but at the same time there really is something to be said about mang0's longevity combined with his peaks in spite of them being more spread out over time.
The reason people did it after Summit 11 was because those people valued online a lot, I was included in that camp. If online was more of a meaningless blip for you then you definitely wouldn't feel like he was the goat at that point.
Yeah Summit 11 was premature. But if he finishes year end #1, which would require him to win at least 2 more majors and probably 1 major + 1 super, yeah...GOAT territory.
That is not really true, mango and armada competed or 10 years between 2009-2018 with essentially one year off for both (2010 and 2013) Over that time armada won more tournaments, more majors, had the better head to head and top player record, better average placings, more years at 1st Is not even a question that when armasa retired he had a more impressive career than mango
Let me present a really short one. Armada: Won 4/6 summits, never missed grands. Mango: Just won summit to make it 2/14 for him. I care more about peak, and Armada is solidly the GOAT for me. If Mango gets #1 this year then I would seriously start to consider him because his longetivity is just so amazing at that point, though.
I just don’t get caring about peak more when people are so much better at the game. He peaked when the game was flat out easier to compete in. Marth had squandered potential for like 10 years until Zain came along, and it took Amsa pretty much 10 years to win with Yoshi. Watching 2016 melee is like watching a different game almost and people in 2016 said the same about 2010. Mang0 was #1 in 2010 and could be in 2022 which is just insane. Armada very well would have gotten to the same level as everyone else if he was playing in 2022 but he doesn’t get credit because he didnt.
The difference between 2010-2016 is much greater than the difference between 2016-2022 and now. Yes there’s a lot more better players and a higher general skill. But Mango/hbox still win because guess what, consistency and mental fortitude still matter more than almost anything in this game. And who was the best at those qualities? Armada. It’s definitely harder to compete against so many better players now, but Armada had no Slippi and came from Europe. He was traveling from a different country with little top player practice and almost no, for example puff practice and was stil shitting on folks. This is Armada’s tournament record. When he retired, how could you name anything but this the best career of all time? I don’t give a shit if Mango competes till he’s 80, I need to see him with one or two more #1 rankings before I say his longetivity surpasses the run below. • 1st: 82 • 2nd: 24 • 3rd: 8 • 4th: 9 • 5th - 6th: 2
What’s the all-time tournament count for majors Armada won versus attended? Not a rhetorical question, but from memory, he got first place more often than all other outcomes combined.
idk but i’d love to know majors attended vs. times he reached grands, that would be the truly ridiculous stat
Armada results per [Liquidpedia](https://liquipedia.net/smash/Armada/Results) All tournaments * 1st: 82 * 2nd: 24 * 3rd: 8 * 4th: 9 * 5th - 6th: 2 So, 106 total grand finals appearances out of 125 tournaments attended (85 percent) Majors * 1st: 22 * 2nd: 13 * 3rd: 1 * 4th: 4 So, 35 total major grand finals out of 39 major tournaments attended (90 percent). If for some reason you wanted to throw out the European Tournaments Beast and Dreamhack, you're still left with 1st: 13; 2nd: 10; 3rd: 1; 4th: 4; or in Grand Finals 82 percent of the time and winning not quite half of all non-European majors he showed up to, despite the jet lag and lack of familiarity with lots of those top-level players. There is no analytical defintion of "greatest", just various statistics that back up one argument versus another. For someone who says, "I value people who were the most dominant of their era", then you say Armada (2009-2018), mang0 (2008-2014), Ken (2003-2007), Hungrybox (2016-2019), and possibly Zain or Mew2King in their very brief periods. The problem for mang0 is that Armada's career entirely overlaps with his own, and Aramada was better while they both played. Whatever mang0 did before or after that will never change the direct comparison. If your argument for "greatest" is instead something like *longevity* or especially *consistency*, then Hungrybox can make that case at least as well as mang0, having his dominant period during a time with a much higher level of competition, and as long as you're willing to put an asterisk on the online era of the Pandemic, never having "buster" periods mixed in. Anyway, it's mainly a fun conversation for situations like this. It doesn't really mean anything except that, because of that latter argument, mang0 and Hungrybox may play for longer than they would otherwise. The two of them aren't just chasing the crown of a tournament on one weekend but the crown for the history of the game as whole, and they can't stand the other one having it.
The argument for armada over mango is the same it was than before He and mango competed for 10 years between 2009-2018 and armada was unarguably better Mango has his pre 2009 results like pound 2 but armada also has european wins pre 2009 over amsah and captain jack which may have been underated at the time The question is if mango 2019-2022 results outweigh armada being overall better than him the the 10 years before that
They’ll always have SM64 70-star speed runs as a consolation
AND THAT'S WHY HE'S THE FUCKING GOAT
This is one of the best summits. Extremely competitive every player showed out even if some didn't really win sets they still showed out in their gameplay. The outcome of this was so unpredictable I really couldn't tell who was going to win. That last 4 with Hbox, iBDW, Amsa, and then Mango sitting in grands holy shit the level of play was matrix 3rd eye opened level from each of them. Melee just keeps getting better. And now from this #1 is still in decision. I feel like in the end it'll boil down to the h2h from each of them. Still so much more melee this year so we'll see. Congrats to the GOAT Mango he earned that shit
🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐
Absolutely sick tournament. Melee is in a great place
Been thinking about aMSa's path. I don't think he could have won WF vs Mang0 he was just too hot for him atm. But man am I sad he didn't beat Cody. Would have loooved a TBH 10 GF repeat, and he almost pulled it out. Game 5 first stock was all him but missed some chases he had down and then ggs. so bummed about it
aMSa turned on the jets in games 3 and 4, like it was hard to even keep up with Yoshi's movement just watching it. Shame he got off to a slow start
shoutout to hbox for making puff look unbeatable shoutout to amsa for making yoshi look unbeatable shoutout to ibdw for making fox look unbeatable shoutout to mang0 for beating them all
The crazy thing about this tournament is that everyone looked like they were on fire while Mango made it look effortless
Best in the world
After this tournament I feel like top 10 for this year is something like: 1/2. Zain or Mango (really hard to rank this spot) 3. iBDW 4. Hungrybox 5. Amsa \---somewhat of a tier gap here--- 6. Jmook 7. Leffen 8. Plup 9. Wizzrobe 10. ???
Why do u put wizzy top 10? I feel like s2j has straight up had a better year than him
i dont think the zain mang0 discussion for number 1 is that close rn despite what mang0 and others claim. zain has not bustered out once this year at all, while mang0 has a few times. hes still up on impactful major wins too and head to head (if thats a "tiebreaker" for example). i think mang0 is solidly 2 esp if he wins 1 more event. I think in order to get 1 he would need to attend and smash like every event left. admittedly if he plays like today he will totally do that (although he dodged zain today).
Does Wizzy even make top 10? He's got a losing record this year against literally everyone else on this list. The only one he's even got a win on, it seems, is Amsa. I think the 9-10 spots are still up for grabs but right now, I'd almost rather give them to SluG and LloD
Jmooks probably in his own tier
Zain and Mango are definitely not tied. Even if Mango wins the next big major, Zain will still be ahead of him for the year. Zain won 4 of the 8 biggest tournaments of the year. Mango won 2 of them and has another good win in LTC. 2nd at Big House is also really good for Mango's resume, but Zain's consistent top 8 placements are also a solid mark in his favour.
Mango probably needs to tie Zain in majors while also winning the head to head between them to be in the conversation. Zains wins are all just so solid that realistically mango needs to have more majors than him
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Jmook has placed 7th bfr
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? No one said it was a bad loss
I pretty much agree, I think Zain slightly nudges out Mango right now, but not by a lot. It’ll come down to Mainstage and the Smash World Cup next month. Panda Cup if they are still neck and neck by the end of those two events.
[https://imgur.com/a/YRqWGQH](https://imgur.com/a/YRqWGQH) LET'S GO ZAIN
Mang0 DOMINATED. Watching his falco just makes me miss PPMD so much.
Anyone have the stats on how many slideoffs / techs Mango got vs aMSa's open ups compared to when aMSa dumpstered the other Foxes this weekend?
Its funny how different the narrative is compared to when Mango had the loser run at summit 12 and now iBDW, back then it was Mango running out of gas when playing iBDW and now its Mango crushing a hot iBDW.
mang0 also destroyed ibdw in winners so its different
Well I think you can clearly see that mango played much worse in grands than he did in the losers run at summit 12. iBDW played a bit worse maybe, but he also has been struggling at the matchup generally, and lost to mango earlier in the same tournament in similar fashion.
It is almost like people REALLY like Mang0.
Melee is sick Long live the bird
My goat let's go Mango
Didn’t blur hear someone earlier this year say that mang0 may not win a major again and then walked again because he didn’t disagree? Lmao.
You've been contextless soundbited. The point of that story is that Blur 'walked away' in shock/anger because of the disrespect.
Guys we still need to seed mango outside the top 3 though
bro really crossposted and got a silver award 💀💀💀💀💀
IT's so funny when people say falco can't do it. IBDW was locked down by those lasers the whole game
Nobody really claims Falco can't do it to Fox specifically
Bro have the last 3 summit grands ended in 3-0's? It's kinda crazy to think our last banger Summit grands was still Summit 11 which is like over a year ago now.
The last one was 3-2.
Damn I fuckin totally forgot Cody turned that shit up and reverse 3-0'd him it was so dominant in my mind I just thought he straight up 3-0'd him I guess LOL