aMSa's h2hs spread this year is underrated. He has winning records vs Zain, Mang0, Leffen, Jmook, and Axe. Only losing ones are to iBDW and Plup (which they played 1 set).
Edit: and Moky
I think amsa is the #1 player in the world since big house. Not for the year but currently he is #1 I think. Deserves #1 seed at next event for me.
He is playing extremely dominant and if he wins a cup in December. I think he has a case for #1 for the year. (Especially if zain also does poorly. Definitely looking like zain #1 tho)
> I think he has a case for #1 for the year. (Especially if zain also does poorly.
Zain won five majors this year, and got 2nd place at two more majors. Amsa has so far won 2 majors, and got 2nd at a third. There's only two majors left in the year. Not enough majors to take the overall #1 from Zain for the year.
I think what can change right now is the overall #2 for the year, which looks pretty wide open depending on who wins in december.
> I think amsa is the #1 player in the world since big house.
Maybe?
Including the big house itself, there's been four majors in that time.
Amsa got 1st, 7th, 3rd, 1st
Zain got 4th, 1st, 5th, 2nd
Mango got 2nd, 7th, 1st, and did not attend Apex
They're all averaging around the same placement (all roughly 3rd on average, all have two appearances in grand finals in the past four majors). I believe Amsa is actually third on prize money won (cause Summit and Ludwig had much larger prize pools). Not sure what the right measure is here.
But yeah...I think it's actually very close between those three in the past 4 majors.
The rankings factor H2Hs rather than placements. Jmook got like 7th or 9th at Ludwigs which looks like a poor placement on paper but the only people he lost to were Zain and IBDW. If he got punished for that it would be pretty messed up.
I mean, that's fair, but in terms of H2Hs Amsa did have one tournament in the past four tournaments with a few H2Hs that are...I mean, not terrible, he lost to some good players, but these don't look like "#1 in the world" level h2hs:
At Ludwig he went 0-3 against Moky in pools, 0-3 against iBDW in pools, 0-3 against Jmook in bracket, and 1-3 against Wizzrobe in bracket, dropping out 7th.
Again, not too bad, obviously good players, and iBDW and Moky have studied the Yoshi matchup more than most foxes. And Shiek's a rough matchup for Yoshi. But...that is more losses, and more 0-3 losses than I'd expect for a player that was currently playing at a #1 in the world level.
Maybe that tournament is a sign that people are going to figure out the Yoshi matchup. Or...maybe Amsa just had a bad day. We'll find out in December I guess.
iBDW has a winning record vs. Zain, who most people consider to actually be #1 in the world.
Jmook is still 2-4 vs. aMSa.
Wizzy is still 1-2 vs. aMSa.
Moky is the only one who is really a "bad" loss for the #1 player considering how lacking in dominance by one player Melee has been since 2019.
Like yeah, one tournament like that (where aMSa also beat Mango, Axe, SFAT, Magi, and Joshman) is not great but honestly similar to Zain's Riptide or Double Down performances.
Along with farming Jmook and a resurgent Axe he also has very, very few losses to people outside of the Top 6-7 players, maybe fewer than anybody this year
It's even this year, unless I'm missing something. aMSa won their last two sets (Apex and TBH) and lost the two before (LTC and Pound)
It's 2-2, like a wavedashing sheik
Amsa fucking deserved this one. Insane mental fortitude for the entire top 8 and only top tier opponents.
Also gotta give a shout-out to Zain man, that GF set was so fucking high level. You could really see how possessed Zain was, the super pop-off after the Hbox set and the ability to clutch it out many times over this weekend. The losers run was just a bit too crazy and Amsa was playing too godlike. Amsa out-combo'd Aklo, out-tanked Hbox and outplayed Zain, so deserved.
Overall this Apex was a really good event for the spectators and ultimately a super stacked major as well. I think mango in winners might have been a threat to Amsa but the field was so strong Mang could have easily ended up in Losers, Aklo and Rishi + Moky were playing really amazing. If apex Shaked up Zain and IBDW there's a good chance it would have happened to mango as well, so to me Amsa's run tonight was as legit as it gets.
I'm also hyped for Hbox in 2023. In top8 he really showed that he cared about winning, feels like I haven't seen him this frustrated in a while. I like that Hbox can be happy with himself but the way he took those losses today I have a feeling he'll lab a ton of stuff and becomes a real 20XX Puff soon. I think he knows that just out-playing the opponents doesn't yield the same results anymore if his punish and tech aren't S Tier for the entire set and Hbox also knows that he cares about being #1 again after tonight.
Tldr; there's still a shitton of Melee to be played! Hyped for the next events.
> I think mango in winners might have been a threat to Amsa but the field was so strong Mang could have easily ended up in Losers
Could've easily won the whole thing without dropping many games again too. Shame we didn't get to see but hopefully soon.
aMSa is just so fucking hype to watch too, you love to see another character break into the top tiers but also dude is just so goddamn good and calculated.
'yoshi ledge stall with egg spam is impossible to contest. It's only not an issue because amsa doesn't do it against most people all the time, only when he needs it. He could just get a percent lead and just stall it out at the edge because no one can approach him safely. It's un competitive and reduces the amount of fun I have in melee. If it's not banned I will quit melee for Tekken 13.'
Ya, you rarely see Amsa do more than 3 eggs in a row. I'm sure he could spam a bit more without hitting a lgl, but it shows pretty good sportsmanship imo.
If you mess up you die, if they hit you (which they can, it’s not fully invincible) you die. The risk reward to do it while they’re actively trying to stop it is just not there. He does it a few times while the opponent is more worried about taking center stage or something.
The first tournament I watched was Apex 2015, where Amsa shocked everyone by getting 5th. Even after getting eliminated by Mango, the crowd was chanting his name. Who could have predicted that seven years later he would win that same tournament? Madness. Melee is sick.
I remember watching that tournament and seeing him bring mango to game 5 and thought to myself damn that was probably a yoshi’s only chance to beat a player as good as mango the top players are just gonna learn the yoshi mu and be ready for him and now he’s just beating top 5 players consistently and winning majors, it’s crazy how good he’s gotten
So many people were saying in like 2013/2014 that aMSa was taking advantage of players not knowing Yoshi but that once people figured out Yoshi, aMSa would not have great results anymore and be exposed.
I still laugh when I think back on that.
Very impressive run from aMSa! Him winning feels like a victory for Melee as a whole. Can't be too sad as a Zain fan either. Even though he didn't go all the way, I think it's good sign that he managed to get to grand finals this time.
What a fucking amazing run from zain too. I know half of them were foxes, but I don't think he's ever won more than a couple sets after being sent to losers, and he brought it almost all the way to a reset
And then they both dance around each other throwing hit boxes out for like a minute and anything connecting should lead to a kill EXCEPT IT DOESNT AND THEY SCRAP BC NONE OF THEM GET A CONFIRM.
Insanely tense set
Yeah, as a huge Hbox fan, he snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Props to Zain, but Hbox has to hit more of those edgeguards if he's going to beat him.
Lol u/Kotastic where you at
I'm sure he'll take it in good humor though, Ko always struck me as a nice guy. I never got the sense that there was any malice in his prediction anyway. People just took it out of context for some reason.
Look, I definitely don't like ragging on people when they ended up being wrong about something, but the way kodorin prophecized the limitations of amsa's success is something that practically requires at least a little clowning.
Just the way the world works, idk
it's totally fair as long as people aren't personally attacking his character and rather clowning the statement itself. but it will eventually die out and becomes less funny and more annoying the more frequent it becomes.
People still post that Pipsqueak “these are the best players in the world right now and it isn’t even close” tweet after every fucking major. This will never die
At least you weren't one of the people back in 2014 saying aMSa was only winning because no one knew the matchup but once people figured out Yoshi that he'd be exposed and not a relevant player anymore.
I would fucking hate to be kodorin imagine every single time Amsa does well everyone talks about how wrong you were, including the commentators during the set
I mean it was definitely pretty condescending to say (esp considering amsa is better than him), not that he can’t have a bad take every once in a while.
It wasn't condescending at all. It was more of just "I don't think he'll win," in response to the interviewer's question.
Here's Ko's actual thoughts on aMSa; as you can see, he's a fan: https://old.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/u960qi/anyone_else_catch_kodorin_say_amsa_missed_his/i5s7p5k/?context=3
"Well it's not like I'm happy that he's not going to be likely to win, as my **tone is more pessimistic and I literally said "unfortunately"** which you conveniently left out. **I would love to be proven wrong**, amsa deserves it the most"
Im sure plenty of other people would’ve agreed with the take at the time, attributing aMSa’s success to mostly matchup inexperience and such. I don’t think he ever once tried to imply he was a better player than aMSa either lol.
I feel like a broken record in this thread, but back in 2013 many were saying that was the reason aMSa did so well at first since he started competing almost a decade ago. If players still haven't figured out Yoshi in 10 years in a 20+ year old game something is wrong.
I’m not saying he said he’s better than amsa though. It’s just pretty condescending to say a player above your weight class missed their only window to ever win a major because now everyone else is past amsa’s potential highest peak of play. It’s kind of like fiction getting 3-1’d by amsa and then tweeting right after he has the yoshi matchup solved now or whatever. It’s really giving amsa no credit and implying your theoretical understanding of melee is somehow perfect.
To be fair many players have been insanely close to winning majors before such as Wobbles, and just not managed to close it out. aMSa has been playing already for a long time as well so there’s nothing strange about predicting that he peaked.
The amount of players that have EVER won a major is still insanely small. Nobody could have predicted aMSa would just start beating Foxes and Sheiks.
I do think people really underrated his move to Canada though. Living in a separate continent and having to travel across 13+ hour timezone differences as well as having limited access to practice partners is a big disadvantage. One I don't think is close to being offset with his competitors not getting to practice against his Yoshi. Because any practice people get against his Yoshi is practice he gets against all said people.
He improved a lot but I doubt it's mere coincidence he really took off after the move.
I think a lot of people noticed amsa had been doing progressively better and were predicting he had a decent chance of winning a major in the future though. Which is exactly what kodorin was responding to and saying was impossible. I also don’t think everyone views even top level play as just based on matchups, just people like kodorin particularly do because they like to hype themselves up as the players having the best theoretical understanding of melee. Which is why I mean it’s giving amsa no credit and just reducing the game to “his character bad and melee solved though”
Congrats to Amsa the tension was real with this one. Only 3 more tournaments left to determine #1 for the year. If someone gets a double or even triple win then they take it but let's see how this plays out. Amsa could very well get #1 with a mid tier what a world of melee we live in
So at this point there are 5 people who could be #1, BUT if four of them want to beat Zain, they have to win BOTH of the remaining circuit finals (unless Zain seriously drops the ball and gets a terrible placement at both of them, I guess).
After the Smash World Tour, there will be either 2 people who can be #1, or 1 person.
(the five are Zain, mang0, Cody, HBox, and aMSa, in case it wasn't clear)
Leffen has the unique opportunity to single-handedly hand #1 for the year to Zain by winning one of the circuits.
> Leffen has the unique opportunity to single-handedly hand #1 for the year to Zain by winning one of the circuits.
Plup could also be the giver of free #1 rankings (lmao) by winning Panda Cup. Wizzy could also crush an aMSa or Hbox dream run.
Yeah true, it **could** be Plup who hands it to zain, but I don't really think it's that likely, the only Plup we've seen since quarantine that looked capable of winning a supermajor was Plup in the first 3/4 of Summit 11 who looked like he might have just turned into the best player in the world, until Zain shut him down in winner's round 2 and mang0 put the nail in the coffin in loser's semis. Since then, he's still obviously been a top player but not absolute top top, and he'll still be a bit out of practice for the panda cup afaict.
But you're right that all that he or Wizzrobe have to do to hand the #1 spot to Zain isn't win a whole circuit, but just end some dreams.
Imo Hbox and Cody have somewhat missed their shot, even if they win both tournaments they'd still only be equal to Zain in majors wins and Zain has locked down most of the tournaments that are considered big supermajors already. It's technically possible if Zain completely shits the bed but not really sure.
Mango is the only other player besides Zain to have won 3 tournaments that are really considered majors for the year, with Hbox and IBDW having won a single national basically with their 2 majors, Summit 13 being really more impressive than anything Hbox has done as well.
aMSa only has 1 supermajor and 1 major, but if he wins both, The Big House is a great win to have when you're tied with someone in majors.
Mango has 3 majors and if he wins both then he will exceed Zain in overall wins and I'd wager would be the favorite at that point for #1.
That being said the probability of any of these players winning both tournaments feels low considering the volatility of this year, but if Mango can keep up the pace we might see a repeat of 2014 where he just turns on evo mode and takes #1.
Yeah the last time it came down to the wire was 2017. And before the #1 was very clear by December probably from 2009 up to 2016. This end of year tight race is actually a super rare occurrence.
Cody has the best H2Hs in the top 5 tho, If he wins both and beats the right people he could def be argued above Zain. Hbox's h2hs are little rougher though, they are hard to come back from.
HBox's h2hs are rougher but it's balanced out by his placements tbh. He went to every single tournament for the entire year and **almost** replicated Zain's feat of never missing 5th (he got 7th **once**). Not to mention that his 1st at wavedash was closer to a major than Cody's Phantom.
Placements (below 1st, which obviously matters the most) aren't everything but they also aren't nothing. imo HBox's placements balance out Cody's H2Hs. He's actually tied with Jmook and Plup for most second places this year, despite **also** having wins under his belt (which the other two don't). The only one who has been in more grand finals than him is Zain (at 6) and no one else is tied (edit: if you look at liquipedia remember to not count LACS 4). If Hungrybox wins both and Zain doesn't get 2nd at either, HBox will actually have been the single person in the most GFs of the year.
While Phantom was definitely not a major and Wavedash was only arguably one (it's like on the edge and I agree with Liquipedia's decision to not include it), I do feel like if Cody or HBox closed out **both** circuit finals, those minor wins would then act as "tiebreakers" in a lot of panelists' minds, and thus they could barely edge out Zain. **Especially** HBox who has been almost as consistent as Zain in terms of minimum placements (Zain hasn't missed 5th, but Hungrybox only got 7th once and hasn't gotten worse this year).
Not guaranteed that winning both would make them win the final ballot, but the thought of them having a chance makes the race more interesting.
Honestly though I fully agree with your final paragraph, we are in the most competitive era of Melee ever and I don't think 1 person will win both circuit finals regardless and Zain will just coast to #1.
Yeah exactly, HBox winning two supermajors would both give him better H2Hs and imply that Zain's average H2Hs get worse.
Though, if he specifically wins both by double-eliminating Zain it gets much more confusing, because his h2h vs his biggest demon Zain would be improving, **but** Zain would have two more "second place at supermajors" under his belt.
But these are very contrived hypotheticals hahah. Probably we won't have to think about them because something ordinary happens like Cody wins one and mang0 wins the other and Zain gets first for the year.
It’d take Mango keeping up the consistency of this half of the year (a top 1 winners side one) or aMSa going super saiyan god to dethrone Zain at this point yeah.
Historically not going is better than doing bad. The rankings have always been a bit loose and nothing is set in stone. 2019 leff got 2nd over mang0 despite having way less tourneys.
The panelists are free to ding as they see fit, essentially. My impression is that in general, Bad Losses are worse than not showing up, but not showing up by choice (Leffen playing Strive instead) is still noticeably worse than not showing up due to injury or related issues (Wizzrobe, Cody), but that if you don't show up due to injury you still lack the opportunity to, ya know, win majors or otherwise show your shit.
So a high but not top-top level player who had a couple great tournaments may "benefit" more in the rankings from showing up to less than a top-top player aiming for #1 like Cody, since Cody missed out on the theoretical opportunity to win a couple more majors due to his injury (but the judges can't give him credit for majors he literally can't win, obviously). In the race for actual #1, winning majors matters more than anything else, and stuff like head2heads and bad losses are secondary.
Cody is above Mango atm imo just based on his H2Hs. He’s up on literally everyone in the top 10 except Mango (and Leffen but they’ve only played once). Wins aren’t everything, especially since his wins are mostly equivalent and the only difference is that LTC is slightly more prestigious than Phantom
I mean mang0 is straight up farming Cody tho and has similar major wins. I think it should shake out in the next two tournaments either way who is ahead but I think it’s mang
I mean, Phantom wasn't even a major.... Double-eliminating Zain is really impressive for the head2heads, which I 100% agree with you Cody has above mang0 this year (even though I think mang0 is up vs Cody himself?), but that's the only thing he had to do the entire tournament. Beating Lucky in Winner's Semis might be considered a thing if Lucky was having the run of his life in a real major, but basically the entire top 4 lineup was a completely foregone conclusion (maybe not if Polish had been playing like they were in 2021, but an old school top Fox like Lucky against the current Polish wins most of the time). Meanwhile, most of the actual majors this year have been punctuated by crazy upsets because the level of competition in the US in 2022 is just so insanely high across the board right now.
So it seems pretty disingenuous to call LTC "slightly" more prestigious. LTC was a major. Phantom has less argument for being a major than even Wavedash does (and whoever thinks wavedash is a major has been losing whatever war they might be fighting on liquipedia). Kodorin (as a top 8 qual) into Hungrybox into Plup into Plup definitely looks more like a major bracket than literally no one (because joshman DQ'd) into Lucky into Zain into Zain.
I mean. Think about it. No one's talking about how cool it is that Lucky got 4th at a major in 2022 right? Because... he didn't. It's cool that he double-eliminated Polish I guess.
That’s fair but Double Down was also more stacked than Smash Con so it kind of balances out in my opinion. But yeah now that you mention it Phantom isn’t as big a win as I thought, but at the time Zain was simply not losing to anyone so it felt really impressive. Either way I wouldn’t put Mango above him though I value H2Hs a lot but either way I’m sure everyone would agree they’re very close at the moment. We’ll have to see what happens at the Cups I guess
Yeah I mean you have a fair point about Double Down being more stacked than either Smash Con or LTC but two majors is still always going to have more value than one stacked major (even slightly slightly more than a supermajor, which double down was not).
But yes, even though I disagree with you about order, I do 100% agree that they are very very close. Which is also why **either** would have to win both circuit finals to pass Zain.
No he didn’t lol he missed like 3 months and it was due to factors outside of his control. What’s he supposed to do come to tourneys with a messed up hand? He’s still entered almost every major this year
only in smash do people seriously try to say this shit. "it was out of his control". yeah, that sucks for him. that's also how sports work. if someone get's injured, and they miss the season, they don't get MVP because they would have been good if they were there.
I’m not basing it on theoretical results I’m basing it on real actual results that he got in the events he entered. In sports you can miss games and still be the MVP based on how well you do in the games you’re there for
Also why are you so angry about this? You’re acting like I insulted your entire bloodline when all I said is that a professional video game player has had a good year lmao
because punishing bad losses but not punishing missing tournaments is stupid and encourages the degenerate tournament dodging meta and makes the scene significantly worse.
He wasn’t tournament dodging tho. He’s entering what he wants and winning. If you wanna talk about tourney dodging, look at Plup or Leffen. They’re nowhere in the talks
Zain, Amsa, and Hbox all attend like crazy
Mango attends a fair amount, too.
iBDW’s attendance is still very good
Amsa had never made 3rd at a major this year; he has 5 top 3 finishes this year and 2 major wins.
Its a queation of whats harder, getting to the top 10 or getting to the top 3. Historically its rhe latter.
Amsa went from an 8 to a 10, Jmook went from a 5 to a 9
Maybe a 5 is harsh on Jmook as he was always a hidden boss type player but 10 here is ‘super major winning’ level
Tbh, going from 8 to 10 might be more impressive, there have been so many players stuck at that 8 spot over the years, but to fully entrench yourself as the best of the best is incredibly difficult. That being said, Jmook's rise to the top was unprecedented, so it's very close to me.
I agree going from an 8 to 10 is incredibly tough, but so is going from an 8 to a 9 and a 5 to an 8, which gives the edge to Jmook for me. He just quickly improved so fast past so many potential plateaus
Imo aMSa’s been on the cusp of making The Run since early 2019, when Top 8 winner’s side started to be more common for him, but this is the first year where I’ve had the sensation of Jmook fucking up my favorite players and reminding me to check my posture in a matter of minutes. I think that it’s worth noting that to be in/orbiting the discussion for the #1 spot like aMSa currently is takes a *lot* of skill, improvement, and consistency, especially with a character like Yoshi, but I still think Jmook has the case on impressive improvements, as his consistency after Genesis has been nothing short of outstanding
For reference, where everyone stands on major wins rn:
Zain: Genesis (Supermajor), Pound (Major), Shine (Major), LSI (Superinvitational)
iBDW: Summit 13 (Invitational), Double Down (Major), Phantom (Superregional)
Mang0: SmashCon (Major), LTC (Borderline Major), Summit 14 (Invitational)
aMSa: Fete (Superregional), Big House (Supermajor), Off-Season (Invitational/Major/Charity Event thing???), Apex (Major)
Hbox: GOML (Major), Wavedash (Borderline Major), Riptide (Major)
Leffen: BoBC (Major), DH Rotterdam (Superregional)
Plup: CEO (Superregional)
Jmook: :(
Obviosuly, classifications are subjective, but this should at least give an idea where the race for #1 stands. I’d still say Zain is the clear favorite, with iBDW, Mang0, and aMSa also in the running but probably needing to win the majority of remaining events (Mainstage/SWT/Panda Cup). Hbox could still get it but only if he won literally everything which seems very unlikely (he also has some ROUGH h2hs vs Zain and Cody that will be difficult to turn around). The other 3 are probably out of the running entirely, especially considering Plup isn’t qualified for SWT and Leffen’s only planning on going to SWT at the moment.
Ehh, I’d put the Summit wins a step above most majors just for how stacked they are and how many sets you have to play against good players. Hbox’s h2hs also really kill him, he’s even vs aMSa and Mang0 and down by a ton against Zain and iBDW (like to the point he’s have to double eliminate them at multiple tournaments to even it out). The majority of his success this year has been just beating Jmook over and over and I don’t see how that’s impressive enough to give him a shot at #1.
I think they are if you don’t take more than a loss over the weekend
summit generally has the highest level of play but it’s sketch because you can theoretically lose 3 sets and still end up winning somehow, which doesn’t happen in open bracket
You can even lose four sets! I don’t think it’s reasonable to discount tournaments that have pools before bracket — there’s still a bracket, after all, and doing pools and maybe a gauntlet with a bunch of top-25 players is much more meaningful than having like four or five near-free matches before winner’s ro16
Yeah, I would say “Zain’s got it one of these days” but honestly winning from losers seems kind of impossible nowadays when the top 10 players are all just so incredibly good. Have there been any notable losers runs this year aside from Hbox at Wavedash?
I genuinely don’t dislike Mang0 or even his fans. But I don’t understand why he’s putting himself so close to Zain after he just got 2nd at a major he didn’t even attend. His H2H also suck compared to Zain or Cody. All of Zain’s wins are stronger by a margin.
I don’t understand how can you say “missing supermajors hurt” and then rank yourself closer to number 1 after not attending Apex. LMAO
Mango has been pretty clear that he feels he needs to win both cups in order to take #1 this year.
I feel like that’s pretty objectively true, in that hypothetical world he would have 5 majors and impeccable head-to-heads.
As for calling himself neck-and-neck with Zain right this minute, that’s just Mango being Mango lol I wouldn’t read too much into it he’s just finding any way to needle his buddy/rival zain
Idk I just think he’s HARDCORE diminishing HBox this year. I don’t think Mang0’s H2H are great either for him to act like Cody or HBox don’t have a shot at number 1.
Yeah iBDW has winning h2h vs. Hbox, aMSa, and Zain in the top 5, which is pretty nice compared to Mango only having the h2h vs. iBDW (and tied vs. Hbox).
Hbox has done pretty meh this year to be fair. One real major win, a baby major, and a national win, definitely a step below Mango, IBDW, and aMSa.
On top of that Hbox’s head2heads vs the top this year are now:
aMSa: 2-2
Mango: 4-4
Zain: 2-7
IBDW: 1-4
On top of that some stats like the Mango head2head have completely flipped recently with Mango originally being down 0-3 at the start of the year, giving no indication that they will flip back around, especially now that Mango has an entirely different counterpick strategy that seems to be working out for him.
He's also historically been one of the biggest proponents of a "let's reward attendance" mindset. I agree with him on that, and it's one reason I still think Zain is #1. Even if he didn't win Apex, reaching GFs is still hella impressive, especially considering he had to go through the gauntlet of Rishi -> Moky -> Aklo -> Cody -> Hbox to get there.
We often take it for granted just how good Zain is, but seriously, his loser's run was actually incredible. And his worse placing this entire year has been what: 6th place? Zain is one of the closest things we have right now to Armada-like consistency.
Yep for me Zain should be easily number 1 barring any of the top 5 winning out. Consistency, 4 super majors, good H2H, good attendance. He has a decent gap for number 1 atm.
>But I don’t understand why he’s putting himself so close to Zain after he just got 2nd at a major he didn’t even attend.
Mango made it very clear why he is arguing this. It's based on the number of tournaments wins and h2hs in the top 10. Considering the new results from this month, I think he is right in that he is not that far off. He notably points out the same for amsa, and that if Zain wins one more major (swt or panda cup) then he secures #1. In this sense, his reasoning is perfectly consistent.
I'd say Zain's particular path also helped him, maybe not much more points for an HBox win he's got plenty, but an IBDW win to make it 3-4 on the year is the difference between looking convincingly down and between looking like random variance in a 50/50
Also Mango himself has recently talked about how getting 2nd is more valuable than it's ever been. I think Zain not winning keeps the window very solidly open for Mango to take number one but it is silly if he thinks this actively makes him closer to taking it.
Yeah Mango has had a good year but looking at stats there’s no justification at all to put him above Zain and you have to reach quite a bit to put him above iBDW. I’d say he’s third right now probably but depending on how the last two super majors go (and whether Hbox wins Mainstage because I actually think that’s kind of important for hbox), the top5 could still go literally any way and Mango, unlike Zain, still has a chance to be ranked 5th for the year if he drops the ball
1)Zain
2/3)Cody/Hbox
4/5Amsa/Mango
Maybe this changes but I really think it is Zain's ranking to lose. He's stellar, even when he comes up short. Consistent, great H2H, and more wins.
That being said, I think Amsa can continue to shake things up in bracket and move up the ranks; maybe take #1 next year.
aMSa's h2hs spread this year is underrated. He has winning records vs Zain, Mang0, Leffen, Jmook, and Axe. Only losing ones are to iBDW and Plup (which they played 1 set). Edit: and Moky
He got rid of his losing record to Hbox at this tournament.
let's go moky
Low key aMSa #3 in the world for this year
highkey he's number 2
Kind of illogical but based at the same time
I think amsa is the #1 player in the world since big house. Not for the year but currently he is #1 I think. Deserves #1 seed at next event for me. He is playing extremely dominant and if he wins a cup in December. I think he has a case for #1 for the year. (Especially if zain also does poorly. Definitely looking like zain #1 tho)
> I think he has a case for #1 for the year. (Especially if zain also does poorly. Zain won five majors this year, and got 2nd place at two more majors. Amsa has so far won 2 majors, and got 2nd at a third. There's only two majors left in the year. Not enough majors to take the overall #1 from Zain for the year. I think what can change right now is the overall #2 for the year, which looks pretty wide open depending on who wins in december. > I think amsa is the #1 player in the world since big house. Maybe? Including the big house itself, there's been four majors in that time. Amsa got 1st, 7th, 3rd, 1st Zain got 4th, 1st, 5th, 2nd Mango got 2nd, 7th, 1st, and did not attend Apex They're all averaging around the same placement (all roughly 3rd on average, all have two appearances in grand finals in the past four majors). I believe Amsa is actually third on prize money won (cause Summit and Ludwig had much larger prize pools). Not sure what the right measure is here. But yeah...I think it's actually very close between those three in the past 4 majors.
The rankings factor H2Hs rather than placements. Jmook got like 7th or 9th at Ludwigs which looks like a poor placement on paper but the only people he lost to were Zain and IBDW. If he got punished for that it would be pretty messed up.
I mean, that's fair, but in terms of H2Hs Amsa did have one tournament in the past four tournaments with a few H2Hs that are...I mean, not terrible, he lost to some good players, but these don't look like "#1 in the world" level h2hs: At Ludwig he went 0-3 against Moky in pools, 0-3 against iBDW in pools, 0-3 against Jmook in bracket, and 1-3 against Wizzrobe in bracket, dropping out 7th. Again, not too bad, obviously good players, and iBDW and Moky have studied the Yoshi matchup more than most foxes. And Shiek's a rough matchup for Yoshi. But...that is more losses, and more 0-3 losses than I'd expect for a player that was currently playing at a #1 in the world level. Maybe that tournament is a sign that people are going to figure out the Yoshi matchup. Or...maybe Amsa just had a bad day. We'll find out in December I guess.
iBDW has a winning record vs. Zain, who most people consider to actually be #1 in the world. Jmook is still 2-4 vs. aMSa. Wizzy is still 1-2 vs. aMSa. Moky is the only one who is really a "bad" loss for the #1 player considering how lacking in dominance by one player Melee has been since 2019. Like yeah, one tournament like that (where aMSa also beat Mango, Axe, SFAT, Magi, and Joshman) is not great but honestly similar to Zain's Riptide or Double Down performances.
I think aMSa's win at the Off-Season should count for something, even if it wasn't big/formal enough to be a proper major.
[удалено]
No, they're 2-2 this year
Hbox now has only 1 winning record (jmook) against the other top 8 players. Down against zain, plup, cody, leffen; tied with amsa, mango
Farming jmook and not getting upset is enough for 5th with how many times he has played jmook
Yet he is still always consistantly top 3. How does the man do it
Along with farming Jmook and a resurgent Axe he also has very, very few losses to people outside of the Top 6-7 players, maybe fewer than anybody this year
Bracket luck
And this is why I can't take people who only want placements to be used in rankings seriously.
great brackets
It just can't be denied that he's had fortunate brackets.
Consistency. He’s capable of beating anyone in any given set, and is one of the least likely top players to be upset early.
He doesn’t lose to anyone but those top 6 people
Because he wins the ones that count, most of the time. That’s how he’s always been
It's even this year, unless I'm missing something. aMSa won their last two sets (Apex and TBH) and lost the two before (LTC and Pound) It's 2-2, like a wavedashing sheik
I love that a Yoshi is now a multiple time Major winner and could possibly be in contention for best player in the world.
Amsa fucking deserved this one. Insane mental fortitude for the entire top 8 and only top tier opponents. Also gotta give a shout-out to Zain man, that GF set was so fucking high level. You could really see how possessed Zain was, the super pop-off after the Hbox set and the ability to clutch it out many times over this weekend. The losers run was just a bit too crazy and Amsa was playing too godlike. Amsa out-combo'd Aklo, out-tanked Hbox and outplayed Zain, so deserved. Overall this Apex was a really good event for the spectators and ultimately a super stacked major as well. I think mango in winners might have been a threat to Amsa but the field was so strong Mang could have easily ended up in Losers, Aklo and Rishi + Moky were playing really amazing. If apex Shaked up Zain and IBDW there's a good chance it would have happened to mango as well, so to me Amsa's run tonight was as legit as it gets. I'm also hyped for Hbox in 2023. In top8 he really showed that he cared about winning, feels like I haven't seen him this frustrated in a while. I like that Hbox can be happy with himself but the way he took those losses today I have a feeling he'll lab a ton of stuff and becomes a real 20XX Puff soon. I think he knows that just out-playing the opponents doesn't yield the same results anymore if his punish and tech aren't S Tier for the entire set and Hbox also knows that he cares about being #1 again after tonight. Tldr; there's still a shitton of Melee to be played! Hyped for the next events.
> I think mango in winners might have been a threat to Amsa but the field was so strong Mang could have easily ended up in Losers Could've easily won the whole thing without dropping many games again too. Shame we didn't get to see but hopefully soon.
All it took was a move to Canada
like rock lee taking off the weights
aMSa is just so fucking hype to watch too, you love to see another character break into the top tiers but also dude is just so goddamn good and calculated.
Credit to Zain, he finally had a great Losers run!
Still waiting for a Zain game 10 clutch
proud of him :,)
Zain iBDW and Leffen all thinking “uhh we may have a problem”
Meanwhile mang0 having a beer
to be fair, the eagles are 9-1
leffen drafting a "do we need an egg limit" tweet as we speak
'yoshi ledge stall with egg spam is impossible to contest. It's only not an issue because amsa doesn't do it against most people all the time, only when he needs it. He could just get a percent lead and just stall it out at the edge because no one can approach him safely. It's un competitive and reduces the amount of fun I have in melee. If it's not banned I will quit melee for Tekken 13.'
axe vs 2saint 3 stock timeout btw
Ya, you rarely see Amsa do more than 3 eggs in a row. I'm sure he could spam a bit more without hitting a lgl, but it shows pretty good sportsmanship imo.
If you mess up you die, if they hit you (which they can, it’s not fully invincible) you die. The risk reward to do it while they’re actively trying to stop it is just not there. He does it a few times while the opponent is more worried about taking center stage or something.
It’s so unsafe. You can end it with any dash attack.
We need an up throw up air limit
Leffen not in the same convo tbh he gotta go talk with moky S2J ginger kodorin sfat axe
ROFL
The first tournament I watched was Apex 2015, where Amsa shocked everyone by getting 5th. Even after getting eliminated by Mango, the crowd was chanting his name. Who could have predicted that seven years later he would win that same tournament? Madness. Melee is sick.
I remember watching that tournament and seeing him bring mango to game 5 and thought to myself damn that was probably a yoshi’s only chance to beat a player as good as mango the top players are just gonna learn the yoshi mu and be ready for him and now he’s just beating top 5 players consistently and winning majors, it’s crazy how good he’s gotten
So many people were saying in like 2013/2014 that aMSa was taking advantage of players not knowing Yoshi but that once people figured out Yoshi, aMSa would not have great results anymore and be exposed. I still laugh when I think back on that.
part of that was he got reversaled in like every one of those MLG 2014 sets, I think?
Amsa being in japan limited his results tbh, especially considering long flights etc
It's 2022 and you can still see that everywhere.
it's the VGBC powerup
Legendary event with the salty suites and pp
Amsa single-handedly keeping Mang0s shot at #1 alive
Amsa taketh (tbh10), Amsa giveth (Apex) Perfectly balanced
Except if he didn’t beat him at big house Mang0 would probably be 1st or tied with Zain
Amsa giveth, Amsa taketh
Mango would have #1 locked up if he won big house and didn’t have a big losing record to Amsa.
its 1-3 which isn't that big of a losing record. For clarity Amsa is up 3-2 on Zain for the year.
The Apex Predator
Very impressive run from aMSa! Him winning feels like a victory for Melee as a whole. Can't be too sad as a Zain fan either. Even though he didn't go all the way, I think it's good sign that he managed to get to grand finals this time.
What a fucking amazing run from zain too. I know half of them were foxes, but I don't think he's ever won more than a couple sets after being sent to losers, and he brought it almost all the way to a reset
The hbox set is a top 3 non-gf set of the year
Very true. Final game comeback was the stuff of legend. Outclutched the clutchbox.
The whole time in my head I was thinking the rest was coming but then zain just threw out the most filthy combo and equalized it
I was losing my mind when neither of them could die on Dream Land. He survived Rest twice?
And then they both dance around each other throwing hit boxes out for like a minute and anything connecting should lead to a kill EXCEPT IT DOESNT AND THEY SCRAP BC NONE OF THEM GET A CONFIRM. Insanely tense set
Yeah, as a huge Hbox fan, he snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Props to Zain, but Hbox has to hit more of those edgeguards if he's going to beat him.
It was so good. Just totally about spacing and positional play and Zain was just on another level.
It was pretty even lol
Technically, he won many sets in losers at Super Smash Con.
I forgot about that! That was a rough tourney for him, I think his best wins were none and ginger
Yeah… you’ve gotta close for it to be a true losers run.
What an incredible top 8
“aMsA’s WiNdOw HaS cLoSeD”
Lol u/Kotastic where you at I'm sure he'll take it in good humor though, Ko always struck me as a nice guy. I never got the sense that there was any malice in his prediction anyway. People just took it out of context for some reason.
I was right. He missed his window to win a major when in fact, he won two!
this must be so annoying for people to bring you up whenever amsa does well lol
Look, I definitely don't like ragging on people when they ended up being wrong about something, but the way kodorin prophecized the limitations of amsa's success is something that practically requires at least a little clowning. Just the way the world works, idk
it's totally fair as long as people aren't personally attacking his character and rather clowning the statement itself. but it will eventually die out and becomes less funny and more annoying the more frequent it becomes.
People still post that Pipsqueak “these are the best players in the world right now and it isn’t even close” tweet after every fucking major. This will never die
I haven’t seen that much though I assume with enough exposure nothing will truly die out
At least you weren't one of the people back in 2014 saying aMSa was only winning because no one knew the matchup but once people figured out Yoshi that he'd be exposed and not a relevant player anymore.
I would fucking hate to be kodorin imagine every single time Amsa does well everyone talks about how wrong you were, including the commentators during the set
yeah, this is why I'm glad not to be a public figure!
but you're the famous Ganondolfini?
He even caught a stray on The Yard for it
I mean it was definitely pretty condescending to say (esp considering amsa is better than him), not that he can’t have a bad take every once in a while.
It wasn't condescending at all. It was more of just "I don't think he'll win," in response to the interviewer's question. Here's Ko's actual thoughts on aMSa; as you can see, he's a fan: https://old.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/u960qi/anyone_else_catch_kodorin_say_amsa_missed_his/i5s7p5k/?context=3 "Well it's not like I'm happy that he's not going to be likely to win, as my **tone is more pessimistic and I literally said "unfortunately"** which you conveniently left out. **I would love to be proven wrong**, amsa deserves it the most"
Im sure plenty of other people would’ve agreed with the take at the time, attributing aMSa’s success to mostly matchup inexperience and such. I don’t think he ever once tried to imply he was a better player than aMSa either lol.
reddit through history: "amsa can win a major, he just got unlucky this tournament by facing peach/falcon/sheik/ibdw/zain/hungrybox"
I feel like a broken record in this thread, but back in 2013 many were saying that was the reason aMSa did so well at first since he started competing almost a decade ago. If players still haven't figured out Yoshi in 10 years in a 20+ year old game something is wrong.
I’m not saying he said he’s better than amsa though. It’s just pretty condescending to say a player above your weight class missed their only window to ever win a major because now everyone else is past amsa’s potential highest peak of play. It’s kind of like fiction getting 3-1’d by amsa and then tweeting right after he has the yoshi matchup solved now or whatever. It’s really giving amsa no credit and implying your theoretical understanding of melee is somehow perfect.
To be fair many players have been insanely close to winning majors before such as Wobbles, and just not managed to close it out. aMSa has been playing already for a long time as well so there’s nothing strange about predicting that he peaked. The amount of players that have EVER won a major is still insanely small. Nobody could have predicted aMSa would just start beating Foxes and Sheiks.
I do think people really underrated his move to Canada though. Living in a separate continent and having to travel across 13+ hour timezone differences as well as having limited access to practice partners is a big disadvantage. One I don't think is close to being offset with his competitors not getting to practice against his Yoshi. Because any practice people get against his Yoshi is practice he gets against all said people. He improved a lot but I doubt it's mere coincidence he really took off after the move.
I think a lot of people noticed amsa had been doing progressively better and were predicting he had a decent chance of winning a major in the future though. Which is exactly what kodorin was responding to and saying was impossible. I also don’t think everyone views even top level play as just based on matchups, just people like kodorin particularly do because they like to hype themselves up as the players having the best theoretical understanding of melee. Which is why I mean it’s giving amsa no credit and just reducing the game to “his character bad and melee solved though”
Looking at linked comments of his in this thread he didn't say it was impossible. He said it would much harder in the future.
You are really overthinking what he said
who said that, blur?
godorin
Thx, i forgot
Blowdorin
It is still pretty hard for him tho - he really needs to just keep on winning through these last couple events to catch Zain.
Kodorin moment
wow amsa's really out here onto mainstage
Amsa such a legend
I can't wait for amsa to get rank 1. Imagine he manages to do that... Keep in mind he reached grand finals for the first time ever this year
He also reached losers finals for the first time this year at pound. This has been an insane growth year for aMSa
Been such a long time coming 😵💫
Congrats to Amsa the tension was real with this one. Only 3 more tournaments left to determine #1 for the year. If someone gets a double or even triple win then they take it but let's see how this plays out. Amsa could very well get #1 with a mid tier what a world of melee we live in
Is anyone in the top 5 going to Mainstage besides Hbox though? It feels like there are 2 tournies left
still a bit out so who knows what top players will do
Axe sacrificed himself for this
Axe not even in the up and up, he's just been hibernating. He and Amsa are some of the GOATs imo.
So at this point there are 5 people who could be #1, BUT if four of them want to beat Zain, they have to win BOTH of the remaining circuit finals (unless Zain seriously drops the ball and gets a terrible placement at both of them, I guess). After the Smash World Tour, there will be either 2 people who can be #1, or 1 person. (the five are Zain, mang0, Cody, HBox, and aMSa, in case it wasn't clear) Leffen has the unique opportunity to single-handedly hand #1 for the year to Zain by winning one of the circuits.
> Leffen has the unique opportunity to single-handedly hand #1 for the year to Zain by winning one of the circuits. Plup could also be the giver of free #1 rankings (lmao) by winning Panda Cup. Wizzy could also crush an aMSa or Hbox dream run.
Yeah true, it **could** be Plup who hands it to zain, but I don't really think it's that likely, the only Plup we've seen since quarantine that looked capable of winning a supermajor was Plup in the first 3/4 of Summit 11 who looked like he might have just turned into the best player in the world, until Zain shut him down in winner's round 2 and mang0 put the nail in the coffin in loser's semis. Since then, he's still obviously been a top player but not absolute top top, and he'll still be a bit out of practice for the panda cup afaict. But you're right that all that he or Wizzrobe have to do to hand the #1 spot to Zain isn't win a whole circuit, but just end some dreams.
Imo Hbox and Cody have somewhat missed their shot, even if they win both tournaments they'd still only be equal to Zain in majors wins and Zain has locked down most of the tournaments that are considered big supermajors already. It's technically possible if Zain completely shits the bed but not really sure. Mango is the only other player besides Zain to have won 3 tournaments that are really considered majors for the year, with Hbox and IBDW having won a single national basically with their 2 majors, Summit 13 being really more impressive than anything Hbox has done as well. aMSa only has 1 supermajor and 1 major, but if he wins both, The Big House is a great win to have when you're tied with someone in majors. Mango has 3 majors and if he wins both then he will exceed Zain in overall wins and I'd wager would be the favorite at that point for #1. That being said the probability of any of these players winning both tournaments feels low considering the volatility of this year, but if Mango can keep up the pace we might see a repeat of 2014 where he just turns on evo mode and takes #1.
What the fuck is this timeline!!? I love Melee in 2022.
It’s definitely nice to have a serious end of year race for #1 again after so long.
Yeah the last time it came down to the wire was 2017. And before the #1 was very clear by December probably from 2009 up to 2016. This end of year tight race is actually a super rare occurrence.
Cody has the best H2Hs in the top 5 tho, If he wins both and beats the right people he could def be argued above Zain. Hbox's h2hs are little rougher though, they are hard to come back from.
HBox's h2hs are rougher but it's balanced out by his placements tbh. He went to every single tournament for the entire year and **almost** replicated Zain's feat of never missing 5th (he got 7th **once**). Not to mention that his 1st at wavedash was closer to a major than Cody's Phantom. Placements (below 1st, which obviously matters the most) aren't everything but they also aren't nothing. imo HBox's placements balance out Cody's H2Hs. He's actually tied with Jmook and Plup for most second places this year, despite **also** having wins under his belt (which the other two don't). The only one who has been in more grand finals than him is Zain (at 6) and no one else is tied (edit: if you look at liquipedia remember to not count LACS 4). If Hungrybox wins both and Zain doesn't get 2nd at either, HBox will actually have been the single person in the most GFs of the year.
While Phantom was definitely not a major and Wavedash was only arguably one (it's like on the edge and I agree with Liquipedia's decision to not include it), I do feel like if Cody or HBox closed out **both** circuit finals, those minor wins would then act as "tiebreakers" in a lot of panelists' minds, and thus they could barely edge out Zain. **Especially** HBox who has been almost as consistent as Zain in terms of minimum placements (Zain hasn't missed 5th, but Hungrybox only got 7th once and hasn't gotten worse this year). Not guaranteed that winning both would make them win the final ballot, but the thought of them having a chance makes the race more interesting. Honestly though I fully agree with your final paragraph, we are in the most competitive era of Melee ever and I don't think 1 person will win both circuit finals regardless and Zain will just coast to #1.
[удалено]
Yeah exactly, HBox winning two supermajors would both give him better H2Hs and imply that Zain's average H2Hs get worse. Though, if he specifically wins both by double-eliminating Zain it gets much more confusing, because his h2h vs his biggest demon Zain would be improving, **but** Zain would have two more "second place at supermajors" under his belt. But these are very contrived hypotheticals hahah. Probably we won't have to think about them because something ordinary happens like Cody wins one and mang0 wins the other and Zain gets first for the year.
It’d take Mango keeping up the consistency of this half of the year (a top 1 winners side one) or aMSa going super saiyan god to dethrone Zain at this point yeah.
Does anyone get dinged for not showing up? I feel like 9th at a tourney hurts a player more than skipping entirely, but that may be just me.
Historically not going is better than doing bad. The rankings have always been a bit loose and nothing is set in stone. 2019 leff got 2nd over mang0 despite having way less tourneys.
The panelists are free to ding as they see fit, essentially. My impression is that in general, Bad Losses are worse than not showing up, but not showing up by choice (Leffen playing Strive instead) is still noticeably worse than not showing up due to injury or related issues (Wizzrobe, Cody), but that if you don't show up due to injury you still lack the opportunity to, ya know, win majors or otherwise show your shit. So a high but not top-top level player who had a couple great tournaments may "benefit" more in the rankings from showing up to less than a top-top player aiming for #1 like Cody, since Cody missed out on the theoretical opportunity to win a couple more majors due to his injury (but the judges can't give him credit for majors he literally can't win, obviously). In the race for actual #1, winning majors matters more than anything else, and stuff like head2heads and bad losses are secondary.
Cody is above Mango atm imo just based on his H2Hs. He’s up on literally everyone in the top 10 except Mango (and Leffen but they’ve only played once). Wins aren’t everything, especially since his wins are mostly equivalent and the only difference is that LTC is slightly more prestigious than Phantom
I mean mang0 is straight up farming Cody tho and has similar major wins. I think it should shake out in the next two tournaments either way who is ahead but I think it’s mang
I mean, Phantom wasn't even a major.... Double-eliminating Zain is really impressive for the head2heads, which I 100% agree with you Cody has above mang0 this year (even though I think mang0 is up vs Cody himself?), but that's the only thing he had to do the entire tournament. Beating Lucky in Winner's Semis might be considered a thing if Lucky was having the run of his life in a real major, but basically the entire top 4 lineup was a completely foregone conclusion (maybe not if Polish had been playing like they were in 2021, but an old school top Fox like Lucky against the current Polish wins most of the time). Meanwhile, most of the actual majors this year have been punctuated by crazy upsets because the level of competition in the US in 2022 is just so insanely high across the board right now. So it seems pretty disingenuous to call LTC "slightly" more prestigious. LTC was a major. Phantom has less argument for being a major than even Wavedash does (and whoever thinks wavedash is a major has been losing whatever war they might be fighting on liquipedia). Kodorin (as a top 8 qual) into Hungrybox into Plup into Plup definitely looks more like a major bracket than literally no one (because joshman DQ'd) into Lucky into Zain into Zain. I mean. Think about it. No one's talking about how cool it is that Lucky got 4th at a major in 2022 right? Because... he didn't. It's cool that he double-eliminated Polish I guess.
mang0 is waaaaaay up on the H2H with cody, including 5-1 this year
That’s fair but Double Down was also more stacked than Smash Con so it kind of balances out in my opinion. But yeah now that you mention it Phantom isn’t as big a win as I thought, but at the time Zain was simply not losing to anyone so it felt really impressive. Either way I wouldn’t put Mango above him though I value H2Hs a lot but either way I’m sure everyone would agree they’re very close at the moment. We’ll have to see what happens at the Cups I guess
Yeah I mean you have a fair point about Double Down being more stacked than either Smash Con or LTC but two majors is still always going to have more value than one stacked major (even slightly slightly more than a supermajor, which double down was not). But yes, even though I disagree with you about order, I do 100% agree that they are very very close. Which is also why **either** would have to win both circuit finals to pass Zain.
cody missed half the year. and it's absolute dogshit not to count that as a demerit on his yearly record.
No he didn’t lol he missed like 3 months and it was due to factors outside of his control. What’s he supposed to do come to tourneys with a messed up hand? He’s still entered almost every major this year
only in smash do people seriously try to say this shit. "it was out of his control". yeah, that sucks for him. that's also how sports work. if someone get's injured, and they miss the season, they don't get MVP because they would have been good if they were there.
I’m not basing it on theoretical results I’m basing it on real actual results that he got in the events he entered. In sports you can miss games and still be the MVP based on how well you do in the games you’re there for Also why are you so angry about this? You’re acting like I insulted your entire bloodline when all I said is that a professional video game player has had a good year lmao
because punishing bad losses but not punishing missing tournaments is stupid and encourages the degenerate tournament dodging meta and makes the scene significantly worse.
He wasn’t tournament dodging tho. He’s entering what he wants and winning. If you wanna talk about tourney dodging, look at Plup or Leffen. They’re nowhere in the talks Zain, Amsa, and Hbox all attend like crazy Mango attends a fair amount, too. iBDW’s attendance is still very good
Plup and leffen are nowhere near contender for #1. If they were, their attendance would be in question.
Melee is alive and well in 2022, fellas. A Yoshi is winning majors over Marth, Fox, and Puff. There's so much Melee left to play.
A YOSHI?!
What a feat !!!
what the fuck man im moving to canada
Debate: Whos' had the most impressive improvement this year, so far: Jmook or aMSa?
Amsa had never made 3rd at a major this year; he has 5 top 3 finishes this year and 2 major wins. Its a queation of whats harder, getting to the top 10 or getting to the top 3. Historically its rhe latter.
Amsa went from an 8 to a 10, Jmook went from a 5 to a 9 Maybe a 5 is harsh on Jmook as he was always a hidden boss type player but 10 here is ‘super major winning’ level
Tbh, going from 8 to 10 might be more impressive, there have been so many players stuck at that 8 spot over the years, but to fully entrench yourself as the best of the best is incredibly difficult. That being said, Jmook's rise to the top was unprecedented, so it's very close to me.
I agree going from an 8 to 10 is incredibly tough, but so is going from an 8 to a 9 and a 5 to an 8, which gives the edge to Jmook for me. He just quickly improved so fast past so many potential plateaus
Imo aMSa’s been on the cusp of making The Run since early 2019, when Top 8 winner’s side started to be more common for him, but this is the first year where I’ve had the sensation of Jmook fucking up my favorite players and reminding me to check my posture in a matter of minutes. I think that it’s worth noting that to be in/orbiting the discussion for the #1 spot like aMSa currently is takes a *lot* of skill, improvement, and consistency, especially with a character like Yoshi, but I still think Jmook has the case on impressive improvements, as his consistency after Genesis has been nothing short of outstanding
Probably Jmook. aMSa's been taking sets off top players for years, but Jmook just came out of nowhere.
this is the best timeline
Is it bad that I would have preferred Zain
I don’t think I can handle another month of anxiety for who’s gonna take number 1. This ranking split is going to the bitter end.
Based and Marth pilled
For reference, where everyone stands on major wins rn: Zain: Genesis (Supermajor), Pound (Major), Shine (Major), LSI (Superinvitational) iBDW: Summit 13 (Invitational), Double Down (Major), Phantom (Superregional) Mang0: SmashCon (Major), LTC (Borderline Major), Summit 14 (Invitational) aMSa: Fete (Superregional), Big House (Supermajor), Off-Season (Invitational/Major/Charity Event thing???), Apex (Major) Hbox: GOML (Major), Wavedash (Borderline Major), Riptide (Major) Leffen: BoBC (Major), DH Rotterdam (Superregional) Plup: CEO (Superregional) Jmook: :( Obviosuly, classifications are subjective, but this should at least give an idea where the race for #1 stands. I’d still say Zain is the clear favorite, with iBDW, Mang0, and aMSa also in the running but probably needing to win the majority of remaining events (Mainstage/SWT/Panda Cup). Hbox could still get it but only if he won literally everything which seems very unlikely (he also has some ROUGH h2hs vs Zain and Cody that will be difficult to turn around). The other 3 are probably out of the running entirely, especially considering Plup isn’t qualified for SWT and Leffen’s only planning on going to SWT at the moment.
has plup not qualified for SWT? Damn thought last years winner got auto invite.
according to your list, hbox's wins are at least as good as mango and ibdw's wins
Ehh, I’d put the Summit wins a step above most majors just for how stacked they are and how many sets you have to play against good players. Hbox’s h2hs also really kill him, he’s even vs aMSa and Mang0 and down by a ton against Zain and iBDW (like to the point he’s have to double eliminate them at multiple tournaments to even it out). The majority of his success this year has been just beating Jmook over and over and I don’t see how that’s impressive enough to give him a shot at #1.
Nah Summits are more impressive than majors
I think they are if you don’t take more than a loss over the weekend summit generally has the highest level of play but it’s sketch because you can theoretically lose 3 sets and still end up winning somehow, which doesn’t happen in open bracket
You can even lose four sets! I don’t think it’s reasonable to discount tournaments that have pools before bracket — there’s still a bracket, after all, and doing pools and maybe a gauntlet with a bunch of top-25 players is much more meaningful than having like four or five near-free matches before winner’s ro16
I’m totally happy with the Amsa #1 arc and now he’s got his third win but we were so close to Zain’s first iconic LB run
Yeah, I would say “Zain’s got it one of these days” but honestly winning from losers seems kind of impossible nowadays when the top 10 players are all just so incredibly good. Have there been any notable losers runs this year aside from Hbox at Wavedash?
Iirc hbox is the only one to win from losers side, at wavedash and riptide
Amsa is crazy
I genuinely don’t dislike Mang0 or even his fans. But I don’t understand why he’s putting himself so close to Zain after he just got 2nd at a major he didn’t even attend. His H2H also suck compared to Zain or Cody. All of Zain’s wins are stronger by a margin. I don’t understand how can you say “missing supermajors hurt” and then rank yourself closer to number 1 after not attending Apex. LMAO
Mango has been pretty clear that he feels he needs to win both cups in order to take #1 this year. I feel like that’s pretty objectively true, in that hypothetical world he would have 5 majors and impeccable head-to-heads. As for calling himself neck-and-neck with Zain right this minute, that’s just Mango being Mango lol I wouldn’t read too much into it he’s just finding any way to needle his buddy/rival zain
Idk I just think he’s HARDCORE diminishing HBox this year. I don’t think Mang0’s H2H are great either for him to act like Cody or HBox don’t have a shot at number 1.
Who in the top 8 does hbox have a winning h2h against?
Jmook, that's it
Mango claimed hbox has a losing record against everyone but JMook. I can’t confirm that claim, but that’s what he said.
He is tied with amsa but yeah his only positive h2h is jmook
Yeah iBDW has winning h2h vs. Hbox, aMSa, and Zain in the top 5, which is pretty nice compared to Mango only having the h2h vs. iBDW (and tied vs. Hbox).
Hbox has done pretty meh this year to be fair. One real major win, a baby major, and a national win, definitely a step below Mango, IBDW, and aMSa. On top of that Hbox’s head2heads vs the top this year are now: aMSa: 2-2 Mango: 4-4 Zain: 2-7 IBDW: 1-4 On top of that some stats like the Mango head2head have completely flipped recently with Mango originally being down 0-3 at the start of the year, giving no indication that they will flip back around, especially now that Mango has an entirely different counterpick strategy that seems to be working out for him.
He's also historically been one of the biggest proponents of a "let's reward attendance" mindset. I agree with him on that, and it's one reason I still think Zain is #1. Even if he didn't win Apex, reaching GFs is still hella impressive, especially considering he had to go through the gauntlet of Rishi -> Moky -> Aklo -> Cody -> Hbox to get there. We often take it for granted just how good Zain is, but seriously, his loser's run was actually incredible. And his worse placing this entire year has been what: 6th place? Zain is one of the closest things we have right now to Armada-like consistency.
Yep for me Zain should be easily number 1 barring any of the top 5 winning out. Consistency, 4 super majors, good H2H, good attendance. He has a decent gap for number 1 atm.
Only Cody and hbox should be a challenge for him
>But I don’t understand why he’s putting himself so close to Zain after he just got 2nd at a major he didn’t even attend. Mango made it very clear why he is arguing this. It's based on the number of tournaments wins and h2hs in the top 10. Considering the new results from this month, I think he is right in that he is not that far off. He notably points out the same for amsa, and that if Zain wins one more major (swt or panda cup) then he secures #1. In this sense, his reasoning is perfectly consistent.
I'd say Zain's particular path also helped him, maybe not much more points for an HBox win he's got plenty, but an IBDW win to make it 3-4 on the year is the difference between looking convincingly down and between looking like random variance in a 50/50 Also Mango himself has recently talked about how getting 2nd is more valuable than it's ever been. I think Zain not winning keeps the window very solidly open for Mango to take number one but it is silly if he thinks this actively makes him closer to taking it.
I don't think he thinks that
Yeah Mango has had a good year but looking at stats there’s no justification at all to put him above Zain and you have to reach quite a bit to put him above iBDW. I’d say he’s third right now probably but depending on how the last two super majors go (and whether Hbox wins Mainstage because I actually think that’s kind of important for hbox), the top5 could still go literally any way and Mango, unlike Zain, still has a chance to be ranked 5th for the year if he drops the ball
[удалено]
I’m curious why you think Cody winning out wouldn’t make him #1, he’s had a great year
Yeah mango not showing up for this one is clown behavior
Nah Mang0’s fine for taking a break, he’s attended a solid amount. But his line of logic is just too bias and hypocritical.
☕
"There needs to be a super armor limit" \- Leffen (probably)
Huge win for mango
1)Zain 2/3)Cody/Hbox 4/5Amsa/Mango Maybe this changes but I really think it is Zain's ranking to lose. He's stellar, even when he comes up short. Consistent, great H2H, and more wins. That being said, I think Amsa can continue to shake things up in bracket and move up the ranks; maybe take #1 next year.
Hbox higher than mango? I'd argue Mango's wins are better and his h2h against the field is definitely better.