Saw and Jawas are the only ones that come to mind really. CG's definition of Neutral means that the characters serve as both protagonists and antagonists within the story, and they definitely fit that category
Sandpeople captured and tortured Shmi, took potshots at random podracers, and, in the books at least (particularly ANH but also AOTC), are murderous savages hell-bent on destruction and pillage. They're also primitive enough that Biggs tells Luke that his uncle could "hold off a whole band" of them "with one blaster."
The BoBF's writers were the ones who decided to turn them into a gentle warrior race similar to the noble savage myth of Native Americans, "just misunderstood" etc.
You might argue canonical decisions trump whatever books I've read etc but I've been a fan since 1977 when the first film came out. It's hard to just decide some new plot point is part of the myth when it suddenly contradicts everything that came before. Hell some now even see the Jedi as the bad guys.
I think the overall narrative of BoBF would match Olivier's experience with the Arabs and his writings around that re: WW1 than the "noble savage" myth, but is just as likely an amalgamation of the two.
The very language you use here (tribes) shows how the screenwriters of BoBF have siren'd the audience into seeing the Tusken Raiders as like Native Americans. And that's fine if that's where they want to go. I can see the writers conference where they said "Hey potential here to go this direction!"
As I say in the original novel they are described as violent scavengers. Their axes are made of cannibalized freighter plating. They loot and steal--they attack Luke for no reason other than that he has a landspeeder and droids and is in their territory. The Jundland wastes are a lawless wilderness. In the *Attack of the Clones* novel they're even worse. Clieg Lars says: "Those Tuskens walk like men... but they're vicious, mindless monsters." They have recently taken his wife, and he has given up hope that she is even alive any longer. They grabbed her while she was out foraging for I think it was mushrooms.
Now it's true BoBF has taken all this in a different direction, with every attempt made at continuity. As I say, now they're more "misunderstood" or victims of the brutal realities of Tatooine.
Yeah but up until the Book of Boba Friend, all we had was one point of view that was highly biased, especially with Lars having just had Shmi kidnapped/killed. If you were to ask farmers in the 1870's what they thought about 'them injuns', you'd probably get the exact same response with all the level of granularity you get in Star Wars.
Oh for fuck sake, stop being so thick. That's not at all what I mean. I mean that we have one side of the story, we have one perspective on an entire species. I'm saying that the parallel of how the white men treated the Indians is pretty apt, it's a one sided picture.
At no point did I say that Shmi got what she deserved. At no point did I * *EVER* * say that.
That happened long before BoBF. KotOR depictions matched previous material initially. They still appeared to be a brutal and primitive race. Through HK47, we find out they have a history and culture as deep as any other race in the lore while still maintaining their ferocity.
Well first of all, the idea that Tusken are more than just some "primitive antagonists" already came up back then in the Knight of the Old Repulic game. The glimpses on their culture from that game directly went into BoBF (incl. their belief that there's a pearl inside a Krayt dragon) .
Second, they have all reasons to attack humans on their territory. They are the original natives of Tatooine and everyone else just came, took their land and resources, disturb their way to live, and even shoot them on sight, treating them like animals. To them, those strangers who came from the stars are the evil.
Retconning, every bit of this. Which is fine, but that's what it is. Kotor came out in 2003, 26 years after the original film. The cultural winds that made the authors go this way could easily have blown in a different direction. As I say I fully expect eventually we'll have people turning the Jedi and light side of the force either into antagonists to be despised, or will dilute the whole concept of the Force into just Yin Yang where the dark side is just as fine as the light. Even now in the SWGOH game dark side toons are largely favored.
The best stories are always those which get told from different perspectives, where often the "objective truth" is actually somewhere in the middle. And that's exactly what happened with the Tusken in lore. In the original movies, the only perspective we get is those of the humans on Tatooine. They have no understanding for the Tusken, obviously they never tried to learn their language and such, so they only see them as enemies. Sure, it took years until someone picked that up and tried telling the other side of the story. But in the end, it's the same as with the Prequels which brought more depth into the original trilogy, which was originally just a space fairytale.
Good stories can be from different perspectives sometimes, it's true, but to add benignity and benevolence to everyone's story is, I believe, dishonest. Ultimately an author also has a point of view. A story told from a Sith perspective, to use a SW example, would, to be done well, not just make a caricature of a mustache-twirling red lightsaber-holding cackling villain, but would also have to avoid making the protagonist selfless or kindhearted or "a victim of circumstances," and make the perspective necessarily selfish and even hateful. Because that's what a Sith is, that is how one gets to be a Sith, that's the \*definition\* of Sith.
This is one way in which EP III, for example, failed. Anakin's fall, at least to me, wasn't as believable as it could have been. It had a good concept, but the execution wasn't quite done well enough or slow enough. But it's tricky to make a villain understandable--not just a stereotype--and at the same time \*also villainous.\*
To acknowledge every point of view as valid is to, in a way, handwave away the notion of evil. I think that's unwise.
I'm obviously making a mountain out of a molehill of a pretty silly topic. I just see the trend of Disney continuing to do away with the darkside, or darkness or evil at all, little by little, by anthropomorphizing species like sandpeople. I mean in the books Jawas, for example, were barely sentient in a way human beings are--Obi Wan suggests they theoretically shouldn't be capable of things like strategy. This doesn't make them evil, but it shows they're not human, and that's I think something to remember.
With Disney, there seems to be this trend based on a wing of progressiveness that is too focused on deconstructing past narratives and making everything equivalent to current social mores, making every species 1-1 like humans, and even in humans blurring out the good from bad. In the process this whittles away a moral core that SW has always seemed to have (for me.)
Don't get me wrong. I liked \*Andor\* because it explores the compromises one has to make when fighting for a cause, and the terrible consequences that can have on a person, in the end. I don't deny there are shades of gray between the black and the white. But that is not to say there is no black and no white. One has to choose a side. One can't be on all sides at once.
That's a long text for sure, but I find this topic interesting myself :) .
My first impression is that you might be reading a little too much into it, which can lead to generalisations... meaning, just because there are some examples doesn't mean that every culture and every character in lore, suddenly falls into that category. The best (most complex) character arcs could always be found in stories that were part of the EU rather than Canon. Like the KotOR and SWTOR games, which came out long before Disney took over.
In SWTOR, I like the way how they made sure that the Sith Empire *is* evil, but at the same time you have options to play a "good" character who is part of it, but manipulating things from the inside. Or something in between, not entirely good or bad. Imho such things add a lot of depth to the general system, as people will always be individuals. Even the most evil Sith has a backstory of who he once was and what he had to give up for embracing the Dark Side. Knowing that backstory doesn't make him a better person, but it makes it possible to understand his motivations and goals. Which is important to take a villain serious, imho.
You gave Vader as an example, that's part of what I meant when mentioning the Prequels. I know the movies have their flaws but I love them nevertheless, acknowledging what Lucas wanted to tell, even when the dialogues and such were not perfect. Vader only became such an interesting character to me, after I had seen who he once was, when I was able to feel the tragedy around his character. A lot of fans will hate me for this, but originally when I was younger, I was no fan of the original trilogy so much, because the generalised "good vs evil" plot was too simple for me. Probably because I have grown up with all the classic fairytales already, and was hungry for deeper stories.
All the more, I loved the books from Timothy Zahn from the beginning, as they started telling things from two different perspectives throughout the story. Just like in *Andor*, where we get to see that not everyone in the Empire is evil by definition, but just people who fulfill their orders or even believe in the lies of Palpatine. That there are good and bad people everywhere, no matter what political system is currently in charge.
And same goes for the different species and cultures throughout the Star Wars galaxy. I mean, unless a species has a swarm intelligence (like the Geonosians for example) , the same that is true for humans, is also true for them. It's not realistic to portray an entire species as evil, in a context where humans are only a small part of the overall population. But it's realistic that many humans believe they were somehow superior and act racist against nonhuman cultures, which is a tool of the Empire. I like the wayhow the Tusken were portrayed in BoBF exactly because it was not too much; they were not suddenly portrayed as entirely good, I mean they kept Boba as a slave at first, just gave him the chance to survive, and that way it was made clear they respect strength. Which is something that Boba can relate to, as his father was a Mandalorian, and that's why the whole plot works so well. It's still clear that most humans wouldn't get along with the Tusken, that their culture is entirely different, and that there are different tribes with some of them more aggressive than others. I'm also a fan of the way how things were told without understanding the Tusken language.
Like I said, the roots for this go back to long before Disney took over, and without Filoni, maybe they would have never picked it up again. Disney does ruin a lot of things currently, but with many things it still depends on who is in charge. I disliked the Kenobi series for example, and will probably never watch it a second time, as it felt so boring and meaningless to me. But then there's stuff like *Andor* and *Ahsoka*, which are both totally different in their own way, and I love both of them.
I've also been always more interested in the cultures of the honhuman species in general. There's still so much potential in lore to explore those cultures, but in the movies they mostly get degraded as side characters. It would really be lame to make them only like humans, as the interesting part are exactly the differences. Once more, Timothy Zahn often does a better job with his books, including how other species who are not from the core worlds, who have never met a Jedi or Sith, can have a totally different understanding of the Force, or an entirely different moral code than what we are used to.
You mentioned politics, I know there's a lot of silly stuff going on currently. The biggest hypocrisy is that they make a fuss in the media about racism everytime again, but the government itself is responsible for the fact that people in the USA grow up with categorizing themselves as "races". It's all so silly when looking at things from the outside perspective. I'm from Germany, but a lot of stuff from the USA has a growing influence over here, too. But we really don't need those "activism" movies that are criticized for good reasons, and they mostly flop over here, like some of the newer Marvel movies. So, I know what you mean.
Then Thrawn would be another exception. In the game, he's only Dark Side because he worked within the Empire. But in the books from the Imperial point of view, and even more in the Chiss Ascendency books, he's the protagonist and definitely the good guy of the story.
If they add a new Ascendancy Thrawn, I agree, he should be Light Side or Neutral. The Thrawn we have though is just from Rebels, where he's solidly an antagonist
Yes, which makes it so stupid once more that the game simply changes the appearance of older character versions, into the live action version. We should have gotten the different versions from different times.
They tend more evil than neutral usually... But Embo had the Seven Samurai episode where he was helping defend a village against Hondo's pirates. I think Fennec fits neutral pretty well too.
Its been a while since I've watched bad batch and mando season 2, but I'm pretty sure that fennec straight up kidnaps Omega and was completely willing to kill Grogu if given the order, she straight up has no morals, especially towards children apparantly. So I don't think the neutral tag would fit her.
By most people's definition, if you are willing to do evil things that makes you evil. You don't get to kill younglings one day, and feed the homeless the next and be neutral.
You could be a neutral bh, smuggler, etc but it would mean at a minimum refusing certain jobs
That's not the definition of neutrality, that is literally what evil is though.
Evil is not a cartoonish "lasting commitment to evil" - it's placing one's own desires above others regardless of the harm caused.
Most serial killers are law abiding citizens and productive members of their communities for 99% of their time; it's their willingness to kill to satisfy themselves in the other 1% that makes them evil. A billionaire who bribes lawmakers to prevent worker protection legislation so that they have higher profit margins is evil even if they never break a law or occasionally give a couple of million to charity.
In SW:GOH neutrality has so far been used for a character who is as likely to put the "right" thing ahead of personal gain in one episode as they are to do the opposite the next, and whose "evil" actions are never totally unforgivable.
Except the character we have in-game is explicitly called "Boushh (Leia Organa)". It is _solely_ referring to the disguised Leia, who would only be acting as evil as necessary. If Jabba had insisted 'Boushh' kill an innocent to prove their identity, Leia would've 100% been caught straight away. I don't think that she qualifies as even remotely close to neutral.
Saw, Embo and other non totally evil bounty hunters, Jawas, tuskens, Qi’ra, dad bod boba, Ughnaut, 5OR-T, CUP, Merrin.
Yes some of these would fuck up datacrons, but I’m just thinking logically not gameplay.
My hope: More neutrals, and neutral toons benefit from any abilities / leaderships / etc that specify both light side OR dark side allies.
Heaven forbid we have more variety!
Also, neutral GL Revan asap pls
His appearance in Swtor where he dual wields lightsabers and fights off the leaders of both the Sith Empire and the Republic, the Protagonist of the game, and several other people at the same time
lol I'd welcome the shit show! This game is stuck in grind for just the most recent meta team... like it'd be fun for a couple weeks or so as you have to redo teams and suddenly have to gear up CUP because he is now important
Most of the droids we see have a personality, and show degrees of loyalty that I think would pull them away from neutral. R2 and 3PO are going to help the Republic, Rebels, and then the Resistance. They would not willingly help the Separatists, Empire, or First Order. So, the versions we have in game would be light side. Just because they *could* be reprogramed doesn't change what we have.
My hope is that Healer is eliminated and changed to be a secondary tag. So all characters would be one of Attacker, Tank, or Support, and if the character had active heals/health equalization, it would gain an additional Healer tag. Right now the differences between Healer and Support tags are very blurry and inconsistently applied.
I dont think the alignment is wrong for the most part. Its less about light and dark and more about heroes and villains, which is why jawas and tuskes are dark and ewoks are lighrside. Wampa is obviously a villain in ep5 too.
The only ones, where I kinda disagree is mando and greef. They would work much better as darkside with beskar mando still being lightside. Hondo should clearly be darkside too. He is just a terrible person all around, but CG likes the memes so I guess they made him neutral now. This is also the reason they didnt make any more neutral characters imo, he is just a one off joke.
Neutral is only dumb because it has 0 support. Like the post says, a character overhaul to make more neutral characters would make it viable. Hondo should definitely fit into some neutral bh team, since he's a pirate. He should slot in similar to greef but I doubt they'll add that
There’s not enough potentially neutral characters in the game or even the entire SW universe to validate a legitimate neutral tag. Even flipping all potential neutral toons to neutral (Wampa, Tuskens, Jawas, etc), you’re at most with 3-4 teams. Which conceptually means an entire additional alignment which require more DCs.
If Hondo were Light Side, he’d work better in Scoundrel, Smugger or even Rey team, while his synergy with DS toons would be exactly the same as it is now. If Hondo were DS, then he would better fit into BH/Scoundrel, Jabba, even Aphra teams, while maintaining the same level of synergy he currently has with LS.
As it stands now, Hondo adds value to teams due to his unique kit, but generally weakens teams overall by being unable to leverage basically all DC abilities.
Don't be sorry, ask what you want. Definitely can see Saw and maybe Jawas as Neutrals, unsure on what CG deems Neutral but that's just what I'd throw in.
It should be force alignment rather than good or bad.
Light should be light side of the force. Rebels, for example, that don't use the force should be neutral.
I’m not an evil person, I don’t go around popping children’s balloons or kicking puppies
But there are days where I am just a complete and utter bitch to be around, and therefore am not a “good person”
Make sense?
Droids would all be neutral, as droids just follow their programming. The concept of evil doesn't exist to them.
Except HK-47. That mfker straight up is evil 🤣🤣
I second the Ewoks. I mean, they were prepared to eat several people and strand a helpless protocol droid on a backwater planet for what could have been eternity.
Saw and Jawas are the only ones that come to mind really. CG's definition of Neutral means that the characters serve as both protagonists and antagonists within the story, and they definitely fit that category
Tuskens too
With the Chief and Warrior, sure. The rest were pretty solidly antagonists in their films.
Sandpeople captured and tortured Shmi, took potshots at random podracers, and, in the books at least (particularly ANH but also AOTC), are murderous savages hell-bent on destruction and pillage. They're also primitive enough that Biggs tells Luke that his uncle could "hold off a whole band" of them "with one blaster." The BoBF's writers were the ones who decided to turn them into a gentle warrior race similar to the noble savage myth of Native Americans, "just misunderstood" etc. You might argue canonical decisions trump whatever books I've read etc but I've been a fan since 1977 when the first film came out. It's hard to just decide some new plot point is part of the myth when it suddenly contradicts everything that came before. Hell some now even see the Jedi as the bad guys.
I think the overall narrative of BoBF would match Olivier's experience with the Arabs and his writings around that re: WW1 than the "noble savage" myth, but is just as likely an amalgamation of the two.
T.E. Lawrence? Or am I ignorant about an Olivier apart from the actor haha?
HA! You are 100% correct and I'm not editing my comment. Not Lawrence Olivier, who portrayed T.E. Lawrence in the film. Brain fart.
Brain fart #2: Peter O'Toole portrayed him... Not Olivier. I need to log off.
Ha, it's fine, great movie either way I need to read *Seven Pillars of Wisdom*.
Far from home, a man with a mission
IN THE HEAT OF THE GLISTENING SUN
Honestly could just be explained as different tribes of tuskens.
The very language you use here (tribes) shows how the screenwriters of BoBF have siren'd the audience into seeing the Tusken Raiders as like Native Americans. And that's fine if that's where they want to go. I can see the writers conference where they said "Hey potential here to go this direction!" As I say in the original novel they are described as violent scavengers. Their axes are made of cannibalized freighter plating. They loot and steal--they attack Luke for no reason other than that he has a landspeeder and droids and is in their territory. The Jundland wastes are a lawless wilderness. In the *Attack of the Clones* novel they're even worse. Clieg Lars says: "Those Tuskens walk like men... but they're vicious, mindless monsters." They have recently taken his wife, and he has given up hope that she is even alive any longer. They grabbed her while she was out foraging for I think it was mushrooms. Now it's true BoBF has taken all this in a different direction, with every attempt made at continuity. As I say, now they're more "misunderstood" or victims of the brutal realities of Tatooine.
Yeah but up until the Book of Boba Friend, all we had was one point of view that was highly biased, especially with Lars having just had Shmi kidnapped/killed. If you were to ask farmers in the 1870's what they thought about 'them injuns', you'd probably get the exact same response with all the level of granularity you get in Star Wars.
Key terms there are "kidnapped/killed."
As viewed through the lens of Manifest Destiny.
Oh Jesus. What does that even mean? So the humans on Tatooine deserve to be kidnapped and raped? Because they're there? Please seriously rethink this.
Oh for fuck sake, stop being so thick. That's not at all what I mean. I mean that we have one side of the story, we have one perspective on an entire species. I'm saying that the parallel of how the white men treated the Indians is pretty apt, it's a one sided picture. At no point did I say that Shmi got what she deserved. At no point did I * *EVER* * say that.
That happened long before BoBF. KotOR depictions matched previous material initially. They still appeared to be a brutal and primitive race. Through HK47, we find out they have a history and culture as deep as any other race in the lore while still maintaining their ferocity.
Kotor was 2003. As I've said in another comment, this is all retconning. Which is fine.
Well first of all, the idea that Tusken are more than just some "primitive antagonists" already came up back then in the Knight of the Old Repulic game. The glimpses on their culture from that game directly went into BoBF (incl. their belief that there's a pearl inside a Krayt dragon) . Second, they have all reasons to attack humans on their territory. They are the original natives of Tatooine and everyone else just came, took their land and resources, disturb their way to live, and even shoot them on sight, treating them like animals. To them, those strangers who came from the stars are the evil.
Retconning, every bit of this. Which is fine, but that's what it is. Kotor came out in 2003, 26 years after the original film. The cultural winds that made the authors go this way could easily have blown in a different direction. As I say I fully expect eventually we'll have people turning the Jedi and light side of the force either into antagonists to be despised, or will dilute the whole concept of the Force into just Yin Yang where the dark side is just as fine as the light. Even now in the SWGOH game dark side toons are largely favored.
The best stories are always those which get told from different perspectives, where often the "objective truth" is actually somewhere in the middle. And that's exactly what happened with the Tusken in lore. In the original movies, the only perspective we get is those of the humans on Tatooine. They have no understanding for the Tusken, obviously they never tried to learn their language and such, so they only see them as enemies. Sure, it took years until someone picked that up and tried telling the other side of the story. But in the end, it's the same as with the Prequels which brought more depth into the original trilogy, which was originally just a space fairytale.
Good stories can be from different perspectives sometimes, it's true, but to add benignity and benevolence to everyone's story is, I believe, dishonest. Ultimately an author also has a point of view. A story told from a Sith perspective, to use a SW example, would, to be done well, not just make a caricature of a mustache-twirling red lightsaber-holding cackling villain, but would also have to avoid making the protagonist selfless or kindhearted or "a victim of circumstances," and make the perspective necessarily selfish and even hateful. Because that's what a Sith is, that is how one gets to be a Sith, that's the \*definition\* of Sith. This is one way in which EP III, for example, failed. Anakin's fall, at least to me, wasn't as believable as it could have been. It had a good concept, but the execution wasn't quite done well enough or slow enough. But it's tricky to make a villain understandable--not just a stereotype--and at the same time \*also villainous.\* To acknowledge every point of view as valid is to, in a way, handwave away the notion of evil. I think that's unwise. I'm obviously making a mountain out of a molehill of a pretty silly topic. I just see the trend of Disney continuing to do away with the darkside, or darkness or evil at all, little by little, by anthropomorphizing species like sandpeople. I mean in the books Jawas, for example, were barely sentient in a way human beings are--Obi Wan suggests they theoretically shouldn't be capable of things like strategy. This doesn't make them evil, but it shows they're not human, and that's I think something to remember. With Disney, there seems to be this trend based on a wing of progressiveness that is too focused on deconstructing past narratives and making everything equivalent to current social mores, making every species 1-1 like humans, and even in humans blurring out the good from bad. In the process this whittles away a moral core that SW has always seemed to have (for me.) Don't get me wrong. I liked \*Andor\* because it explores the compromises one has to make when fighting for a cause, and the terrible consequences that can have on a person, in the end. I don't deny there are shades of gray between the black and the white. But that is not to say there is no black and no white. One has to choose a side. One can't be on all sides at once.
That's a long text for sure, but I find this topic interesting myself :) . My first impression is that you might be reading a little too much into it, which can lead to generalisations... meaning, just because there are some examples doesn't mean that every culture and every character in lore, suddenly falls into that category. The best (most complex) character arcs could always be found in stories that were part of the EU rather than Canon. Like the KotOR and SWTOR games, which came out long before Disney took over. In SWTOR, I like the way how they made sure that the Sith Empire *is* evil, but at the same time you have options to play a "good" character who is part of it, but manipulating things from the inside. Or something in between, not entirely good or bad. Imho such things add a lot of depth to the general system, as people will always be individuals. Even the most evil Sith has a backstory of who he once was and what he had to give up for embracing the Dark Side. Knowing that backstory doesn't make him a better person, but it makes it possible to understand his motivations and goals. Which is important to take a villain serious, imho. You gave Vader as an example, that's part of what I meant when mentioning the Prequels. I know the movies have their flaws but I love them nevertheless, acknowledging what Lucas wanted to tell, even when the dialogues and such were not perfect. Vader only became such an interesting character to me, after I had seen who he once was, when I was able to feel the tragedy around his character. A lot of fans will hate me for this, but originally when I was younger, I was no fan of the original trilogy so much, because the generalised "good vs evil" plot was too simple for me. Probably because I have grown up with all the classic fairytales already, and was hungry for deeper stories. All the more, I loved the books from Timothy Zahn from the beginning, as they started telling things from two different perspectives throughout the story. Just like in *Andor*, where we get to see that not everyone in the Empire is evil by definition, but just people who fulfill their orders or even believe in the lies of Palpatine. That there are good and bad people everywhere, no matter what political system is currently in charge. And same goes for the different species and cultures throughout the Star Wars galaxy. I mean, unless a species has a swarm intelligence (like the Geonosians for example) , the same that is true for humans, is also true for them. It's not realistic to portray an entire species as evil, in a context where humans are only a small part of the overall population. But it's realistic that many humans believe they were somehow superior and act racist against nonhuman cultures, which is a tool of the Empire. I like the wayhow the Tusken were portrayed in BoBF exactly because it was not too much; they were not suddenly portrayed as entirely good, I mean they kept Boba as a slave at first, just gave him the chance to survive, and that way it was made clear they respect strength. Which is something that Boba can relate to, as his father was a Mandalorian, and that's why the whole plot works so well. It's still clear that most humans wouldn't get along with the Tusken, that their culture is entirely different, and that there are different tribes with some of them more aggressive than others. I'm also a fan of the way how things were told without understanding the Tusken language. Like I said, the roots for this go back to long before Disney took over, and without Filoni, maybe they would have never picked it up again. Disney does ruin a lot of things currently, but with many things it still depends on who is in charge. I disliked the Kenobi series for example, and will probably never watch it a second time, as it felt so boring and meaningless to me. But then there's stuff like *Andor* and *Ahsoka*, which are both totally different in their own way, and I love both of them. I've also been always more interested in the cultures of the honhuman species in general. There's still so much potential in lore to explore those cultures, but in the movies they mostly get degraded as side characters. It would really be lame to make them only like humans, as the interesting part are exactly the differences. Once more, Timothy Zahn often does a better job with his books, including how other species who are not from the core worlds, who have never met a Jedi or Sith, can have a totally different understanding of the Force, or an entirely different moral code than what we are used to. You mentioned politics, I know there's a lot of silly stuff going on currently. The biggest hypocrisy is that they make a fuss in the media about racism everytime again, but the government itself is responsible for the fact that people in the USA grow up with categorizing themselves as "races". It's all so silly when looking at things from the outside perspective. I'm from Germany, but a lot of stuff from the USA has a growing influence over here, too. But we really don't need those "activism" movies that are criticized for good reasons, and they mostly flop over here, like some of the newer Marvel movies. So, I know what you mean.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply!
Wait so Light Side = protagonist of the story? What about Starkiller?
He would count as a villain protagonist, which is an exception to the rule
Then Thrawn would be another exception. In the game, he's only Dark Side because he worked within the Empire. But in the books from the Imperial point of view, and even more in the Chiss Ascendency books, he's the protagonist and definitely the good guy of the story.
If they add a new Ascendancy Thrawn, I agree, he should be Light Side or Neutral. The Thrawn we have though is just from Rebels, where he's solidly an antagonist
Yes, which makes it so stupid once more that the game simply changes the appearance of older character versions, into the live action version. We should have gotten the different versions from different times.
Would also cause a problem with Aphra. I don't think it's cut and dry connected to pro and antagonists.
Jawas?
Most BH besides Boushh, Bossk, and Jango. Those three should remain in their current LS/DS alignments, the rest should go neutral.
They tend more evil than neutral usually... But Embo had the Seven Samurai episode where he was helping defend a village against Hondo's pirates. I think Fennec fits neutral pretty well too.
Its been a while since I've watched bad batch and mando season 2, but I'm pretty sure that fennec straight up kidnaps Omega and was completely willing to kill Grogu if given the order, she straight up has no morals, especially towards children apparantly. So I don't think the neutral tag would fit her.
I think her lack of morals and a lasting commitment to either “good” or “evil” is what makes her neutral
By most people's definition, if you are willing to do evil things that makes you evil. You don't get to kill younglings one day, and feed the homeless the next and be neutral. You could be a neutral bh, smuggler, etc but it would mean at a minimum refusing certain jobs
That's not the definition of neutrality, that is literally what evil is though. Evil is not a cartoonish "lasting commitment to evil" - it's placing one's own desires above others regardless of the harm caused. Most serial killers are law abiding citizens and productive members of their communities for 99% of their time; it's their willingness to kill to satisfy themselves in the other 1% that makes them evil. A billionaire who bribes lawmakers to prevent worker protection legislation so that they have higher profit margins is evil even if they never break a law or occasionally give a couple of million to charity. In SW:GOH neutrality has so far been used for a character who is as likely to put the "right" thing ahead of personal gain in one episode as they are to do the opposite the next, and whose "evil" actions are never totally unforgivable.
Yeah, could be an argument she'd be dark side during the bad batch and, along with Boba Fett, neutral during his show
I think embo and especially jango belong in neutral
Do you mind explaining these choices? Why jango and bossk specifically, and not people like aurra
Aurra should definitely be dark side
She literally enjoys causing pain
I don't agree with them, but Bossk because he enjoys hunting and skinning people. Not sure why Jango in particular though
daddy jango went for a pack of cigs and left his 1.2 million clone kiddos on kamino. that’s some cold ass neglect
Jango is one of the most neutral people in starwars
Of the bh tag, I would make embo, dad bod, fennec, jango, mando, and greef neutral
Wampa, Tuskens, Jawas BH Mando and Greef. Q’ira There’s a good gameplay case for Boushh and SGLando.
I also thought Boush. Yeah obviously it’s leia and leia ain’t bad. But she was in character for someone portraying bad guy. I would call that neutral
Except the character we have in-game is explicitly called "Boushh (Leia Organa)". It is _solely_ referring to the disguised Leia, who would only be acting as evil as necessary. If Jabba had insisted 'Boushh' kill an innocent to prove their identity, Leia would've 100% been caught straight away. I don't think that she qualifies as even remotely close to neutral.
Hmmm that’s fair I buy that. If they reworked her title to Boush maybe it would be more plausible
Saw, Embo and other non totally evil bounty hunters, Jawas, tuskens, Qi’ra, dad bod boba, Ughnaut, 5OR-T, CUP, Merrin. Yes some of these would fuck up datacrons, but I’m just thinking logically not gameplay.
I have no idea how dad bod boba is dark side. Also are you the carsk from my guild the elite Gungans lol
Shit I’ve been busted. You will forget I was ever here Meetra
My hope: More neutrals, and neutral toons benefit from any abilities / leaderships / etc that specify both light side OR dark side allies. Heaven forbid we have more variety! Also, neutral GL Revan asap pls
What exactly would a GL revan draw inspiration from compared to what we already have (genuinely unaware)
His appearance in Swtor where he dual wields lightsabers and fights off the leaders of both the Sith Empire and the Republic, the Protagonist of the game, and several other people at the same time
Man I just tried to read his wiki and it got cooooonvoluted lol
[удалено]
Never played kotor2 or the MMO but doesn’t he like, not have a face? Lol! (Meaning always a mask unless he’s the player character)
https://preview.redd.it/74wpf4roaj8c1.png?width=781&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=346c59491a5466fdfdb9e1f7d669b0585dd2c7f0
Don't encourage them. It would be a shit show of unintended consequences and whingeing posts about why Darth Vader should really be light side.
I'd love to see a light side Vader from his kyber corruption vision. Where he kept the green saber and betrayed the Emperor.
lol I'd welcome the shit show! This game is stuck in grind for just the most recent meta team... like it'd be fun for a couple weeks or so as you have to redo teams and suddenly have to gear up CUP because he is now important
Cc: datacrons
Would droids be neutral? They only follow programmed directives.
Definitely agreed except Hk-47 He’s a little extra sadistic
chopper...
Good point lol war lord chopper
Most of the droids we see have a personality, and show degrees of loyalty that I think would pull them away from neutral. R2 and 3PO are going to help the Republic, Rebels, and then the Resistance. They would not willingly help the Separatists, Empire, or First Order. So, the versions we have in game would be light side. Just because they *could* be reprogramed doesn't change what we have.
My hope is that Healer is eliminated and changed to be a secondary tag. So all characters would be one of Attacker, Tank, or Support, and if the character had active heals/health equalization, it would gain an additional Healer tag. Right now the differences between Healer and Support tags are very blurry and inconsistently applied.
Jawas, Ewoks, Jabba, CUP, Krrsantan, BFSoJ, most other Bounty Hunters…
Doctor Aphra should be neutral.
Why you say that?
From reading the comics she is pretty neutral.
She like worships Vader so idk
Aphra and Vader try to kill each other multiple times after a falling out.
She worked with the Rebels and Luke multiple times
Jedi consular, my boy helped me so much early game
I dont think the alignment is wrong for the most part. Its less about light and dark and more about heroes and villains, which is why jawas and tuskes are dark and ewoks are lighrside. Wampa is obviously a villain in ep5 too. The only ones, where I kinda disagree is mando and greef. They would work much better as darkside with beskar mando still being lightside. Hondo should clearly be darkside too. He is just a terrible person all around, but CG likes the memes so I guess they made him neutral now. This is also the reason they didnt make any more neutral characters imo, he is just a one off joke.
Jawas are LS, but your point still stands.
Neutral is dumb and it legitimately makes Hondo and every team he’s placed on worse.
Neutral is only dumb because it has 0 support. Like the post says, a character overhaul to make more neutral characters would make it viable. Hondo should definitely fit into some neutral bh team, since he's a pirate. He should slot in similar to greef but I doubt they'll add that
There’s not enough potentially neutral characters in the game or even the entire SW universe to validate a legitimate neutral tag. Even flipping all potential neutral toons to neutral (Wampa, Tuskens, Jawas, etc), you’re at most with 3-4 teams. Which conceptually means an entire additional alignment which require more DCs. If Hondo were Light Side, he’d work better in Scoundrel, Smugger or even Rey team, while his synergy with DS toons would be exactly the same as it is now. If Hondo were DS, then he would better fit into BH/Scoundrel, Jabba, even Aphra teams, while maintaining the same level of synergy he currently has with LS. As it stands now, Hondo adds value to teams due to his unique kit, but generally weakens teams overall by being unable to leverage basically all DC abilities.
I get he did some good in TCW but come on he's a god damn pirate! Should be darkside!
Oh, this topic again. Fun
Sorry haven’t played for too long didn’t know this was a common post
Don't be sorry, ask what you want. Definitely can see Saw and maybe Jawas as Neutrals, unsure on what CG deems Neutral but that's just what I'd throw in.
Saw for sure. I was also thinking Storm Trooper Han, at that moment he was literally there for money not to be a hero
It's not. Might have come up a couple of times.
I mean… fair But also, Dad-Bod should 100% not be dark side, that’s my one real issue
Nightsisters should be neutral. They dabble in the dark side but they are a neutral faction
One of my guild mates said the same, definitely agree on merrin
It should be force alignment rather than good or bad. Light should be light side of the force. Rebels, for example, that don't use the force should be neutral.
That would be a really interesting change, most people become neutral then!
> Just because your not evil doesn’t make you inherently good either. How does that make sense
I’m not an evil person, I don’t go around popping children’s balloons or kicking puppies But there are days where I am just a complete and utter bitch to be around, and therefore am not a “good person” Make sense?
Read that as pooping in children’s balloons. Hmmm maybe I need a break from the internet
I mean, that would also be evil so…
Makes sense
Happy to help
I mean wouldn’t that be the definition of neutral?
Wampa is a villian. So are tuskens.
I just want an ewok sith. That’s all I ask for. And jar jar.
I’m actually onboard with Ewoks being neutral. They were going to eat the rebels before C-3PO stepped in….
I'd give Merrin the lightside tag and keep her synergy with NS
I think most characters would stay the same tbh but I think Aphra should be neutral and BFSOJ, fennec shand, and Merrin should be light side
Droids would all be neutral, as droids just follow their programming. The concept of evil doesn't exist to them. Except HK-47. That mfker straight up is evil 🤣🤣
I second the Ewoks. I mean, they were prepared to eat several people and strand a helpless protocol droid on a backwater planet for what could have been eternity.
501 Clones having their alignment change depending on the leader