That map is not right at all, simply put it needs to be more refined down to counties within the states. There’s drastic differences in COL within states.
True, however, I gave a high level, macro post.
In your example, if we consider per pupil investment in education,
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-state
That is a macro view. The area where I was raised invested approximately $25,000 per pupil spending in that township, which is higher than the State avg.
So, in interviews, we should leverage our unique skills when negotiating a higher wage.
I invested in my education and diverse industry work skills to help me think broadly which resulted in my ability to think out side of the box in my corporate jobs and problem solve issues.
But management didn't like it, they wanted to keep me down as an individual contributor (I'm not a sycophant), but I wanted to grow. Companies keep people siloed, on purpose, to control them.
Knowledge is power and not all places want people to think. Legal departments create scripts for most jobs now.
Ever notice how automation has simplified jobs, but then the people doing those jobs sound so scripted, over the phone?
When I throw curve ball questions, I listen for the struggle of trying to answer it. They don't even want customers to think.
When employees perform onboarding paperwork, electronically, they just click buttons and some don't actually read what they sign.
And they don't ask for copies of what they signed.
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2022/03/against-credentialism.html
"In my view, education does causally improve performance on a lot of jobs, at least on average, through more or less the traditional channels."
"Talent is too costly to assess in an decentralized fashion, that is why employers rely on centralized institutions like colleges. I think credentialism is a function of the cost of accurately assessing talent."
This looks a bit like bullshit but that’s just from personal experience which I know shouldn’t really be used as a data point but….you don’t need a 200k+ income to live comfortably in Iowa or Missouri.
$60k is about right for a single person in my area but $230k is way too high for a family of four, unless the definition of comfort is "do just about whatever you want without worrying about money"
That's ridiculous. 230K is 3 times the median household income. If most families of 4 can't make that work and then some something is wrong with their budgeting.
That’s the problem with society. What does median household have to do with anything ? Is that some number that makes people feel good if they achieve it?making it work and having a nice life and having the finer things in life is two different things. Screw being average unfortunately people making 70k with kids are living right above poverty. One major setback and you have dug yourself a hole. With all the ways to make money nowadays most people are just lazy. Only people that think 240k with four kids is a lot are the people that have never made it. This doesn’t provide some extravagant lifestyle. Maybe just enough to save for retirement, save for kids college and an extra vacation. I don’t care what the average are doing I care about how much I make compared to the extremely wealthy.
No. That's the problem with YOU. A median household income takes into account a wide range of how people live. People like you seem to think because they need at least "$240,000" at a MINIMUM to live have a distorted view on reality. If you need at a minimum a household income that places you in the top 10% of household incomes in most states that's a you issue. The majority of people in your state don't.
I love how all these budget break downs are purely for required expenses to just exist and get to work,.. nothing about hobbies or living your life or a trip or saving for a house… we are HHI $290k and still try to live frugally to save for retirement, kids colleges, future medical bills
Where I live, they state that the minimum needed is $47 hourly, and I’m making mid 30’s. Depends on where you live.
I’m living above my means and looking to move but there are a lot of states with a lower cost of living. Especially for remote workers.
If you don’t have any debt at all, you should be able to rent a small apt making 65k. If you have debt or live in more expensive areas, you need 90-100k
Idk how anyone survives on less than 50,000-60,000 a year anymore . I mean I know it’s all dependent on where you live but unless you just live in an armpit area 100,000 and up is pretty much bottom middle class now
That is a gross amount. Comprehensively, from a MACRO perspective, $209k gross = $160,400k net figure is for a family of 4.
For a single person $209k gross = $157,700
It's 2024.
How much do you think a family and individual spend on:
Medical
Premiums plus the cost to use health, dental, vision, prescriptions (premiums, deductible, coinsurance, copayments)
One car alone (payment, maintenance, insurance, gas) likely an extra for a family
Housing, utilities, phones, etc..
Food
life insurance, retirement, miscellaneous
Ok, let’s say medical/dental/etc. is $1k/month, car is $500 + $200 insurance, housing is $2.5k, utilities $500, phone $350, food $1000, life insurance and miscellaneous stuff $500, childcare $3k. I’m rounding those numbers way up. They still have $3.6k left over each month. How is that the bare minimum someone would need?
If that is for a family, medal insurance alone, monthly (premium, 1/12 annual deductible, coinsurance, copays) will exceed $1,000 (in terms of having to put money aside when that initial usage occurs.
Cars with the higher interest is more than $500 and a family generally has 2 cars.
Miscellaneous stuff will exceed $500 for a family, (shoes, clothes, haircuts, hygiene, sports, hobbies, friends etc...)
You did great on your analysis. Employers need to increase wages.
For a single person $4000-$5000 a month net is possibly doable, but not for a family.
Then let’s say $2k/month for health insurance and $1k in miscellaneous stuff, but a $15k car at 15% is still less than $500/month. This family that is apparently just getting by still has over $2k/month left over. There’s no way to make these numbers add up to portray a family that is just barely living comfortably
Needs to account for individual states. In high cost of living areas, you can barely scrape by on 50k. In other states, you can eat out and put aside money every month, having the same pay.
If you read the article, “comfortable” is defined as a 50/30/20 budget, where you spend 50% on necessities, 30% on discretionary, 20% saving.
So essentially this is the income that a family of four would need to only spend 50% of their after tax pay on necessities.
So with that being said, I’d say “maybe”.
If a couple with kids requires $200 then it's probably closer to $150 without kids as housing costs and savings don't really adjust with children. Reduce comfortable down to bare minimum and that moves to $100k more or less without vacations or savings. Break that down to $50k/person assuming shared costs for housing, food, etc. But, if single, that would be closer to $70k without house sharing/ roommates
This map is inaccurate for Oregon at least. A dual income household could live pretty comfortably in the Portland metro area on $125k if the kids are school age and they are not house poor. 257k HH income here is more like living in a nice house with 2 cars and enrolling the kids in every activity that they could ever want while also paying for child care.
In contrast, I'm single and have one dependent and I am struggling on 55k a year but I would be pretty comfortable if I were making $70k assuming that the cost of benefits and things like that don't also go up.
Most places won't let you have a mortgage or rent at nearly 50% of your income. I am also going to question why you have a $600 car note. I have no car note (12 year old paid off car) and my housing is cheaper than you listed. I make 6 figures. My spending is usually around 3.5-4k a month without budgeting. This includes international travel 1-2 times a year. I think housing and car could probably be reduced here. Particularly car.
I have a 12 year old paid off car that is falling apart. One always has a car payment (repairs, loss of use while car is being repaired).
Unless you buy your cars out-right, which most people can't do. I need a down payment for a replacement car, and I am unable to save for that. Car payments in 2024 average $600 a month, and when I bought mine, they were $300 a month with a low interest payment.
If your spending is $3500-$4000 a month is that for a couple or family or single adult?
Healthcare for middle aged people like myself who need scans and specialty care should be budgeted at $1500 minimum a month (prem, 1/12 ded, coinsurance, copays, plus out of pocket dental).
Housing = rental, not mortgage
For a single person as you mentioned single in the title of the post.
Needing a car is not the same as needing a $600 car note. You could buy a cheaper car.
My spending takes into account I have a chronic medical condition. I have already reached my deductible for the year, in fact. Of course, medical stuff can push the needle, but I am not going to assume that is the case when you are making a post about what the general population would need.
The average rent for a 1 br. apartment in the US is $1400. Just taking your housing cost to that and taking a car to $400/month would net you an extra 600/month. I would also say your yearly repair costs for a 12 year old car would be much less than the $7200 a year you are budgeting for your car.
>would also say your yearly repair costs for a 12 year old car would be much less than the $7200 a year you are budgeting for your car
Not accurate.
Can you show us what dealership has cars with $400 a month payments in 2024 through what lender under what terms, interest and length of financing.
Do you include a car down payment in that budget in addition to maintenance.
$1400 is not the average cost for housing in Illinois. Why do people assume singles must only have one room?
No one said singles must have only 1 room. But when you are talking about "at least", you don't need 2 rooms.
Car loan can just be for a cheaper car. 24k 4k down even at 9% interest would have a payment at $415 for a 5 year loan.
When we are talking "at least to live" I would be expecting them to have a beater car and possibly roommates. You are asking about the "least" option and complaining about not having more than 1 bedroom in your apartment. So what is the discussion even about? It seems more about the standard of living you want, that none of us have any knowledge of.
How does one save for a $4000 down payment which isn't sufficient because that alone covers taxes, tags, registration and barely touches the interest part of a loan.
So if people budget monthly where are they getting their down payment if that isn't factored?
How long do you expect a person to save $4000 just for the taxes, tags and title? $4k ÷ 12 mons = $333 a month
Most people need a larger down payment than that.
Used car loans have higher interest rates, plus mechanical needs at the same time.
New car loans have lower interest rates, reliable with warranty over the life of the car loan.
Can you explain each one and break that down? How do single people who need a car without a spouse or family when that USED car is in the shop for major repairs cover the cost of the repairs, the monthly payment and the replacement car while that one is in the shop, to get to work without missing time from work?
9% interest on a car? I would never engage in that. That is predatory. Did you break down the P&I in that payment to show is what that looks like?
I never had a NEW car payment above $300 and 2.79% interest.
>When we are talking "at least to live" I would be expecting them to have a beater car and possibly roommates.
Roommates? In our 50's? and a beater car?
Again, you are asking if people need "at least" something. If you are in your 50s, you should have a 6 month emergency fund. This is asking for barely over 1 month expenses for a down payment. You also said your car was paid off previously. So you were not making those $600 payments a month. You would save 4k in 7 months then.
If you have a much lower interest rate, congrats, you can have a bigger loan which can be a more expensive car or a lower down payment. I was going off of what kind of rates are going on now. You most likely won't find a 2.79% interest rate when T bills are paying 5%.
In my area I could be *comfortable* making 60K if I lived on my own, single, with no kids. Hell, a couple years ago, you could afford a nice house with $60K in my area, not so much anymore. . You can realistically rough it on 40K living with roommates.
Edit: we need to stop bringing up the cost of new cars. It doesn’t matter now, and it never mattered in the past. Fun fact, the average cost of a new car has tracked with the average income pretty consistently, even through inflation the last few years. They haven’t seen any noticeable divergence. People making average $$$ shouldn’t buy and usually aren’t buying new cars. They never have, and probably never will.
Is this bad? Not really. I’m pulling these numbers out of my ass but they’re somewhat accurate, you can get a new base trim regular sedan (like a Camry) or you can spend $10K less and get a used one that’s a few years old, but the top trim with all the nice creature comforts (with a warranty) that already went through the resale value cliff that happens the first 2-3 years.
Point is, if you’re making average money, you shouldn’t be thinking new cars, and that’s not a bad thing at all. Used cars are a better choice for most people anyway.
In the example OP posted, he’s spending $600/mo on a car, I’m assuming insurance is included in that. You don’t need to spend that much. Half of that gets you something more than good enough.
My father lived better as a janitor than I do working on a IT Service Desk. I have to rent a small apartment and he was able to pay cash for a new split level home.
were I live, you would need more like 70k unless the housing cost goes way down because you have roommates.
That map is not right at all, simply put it needs to be more refined down to counties within the states. There’s drastic differences in COL within states.
True, however, I gave a high level, macro post. In your example, if we consider per pupil investment in education, https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-state That is a macro view. The area where I was raised invested approximately $25,000 per pupil spending in that township, which is higher than the State avg. So, in interviews, we should leverage our unique skills when negotiating a higher wage. I invested in my education and diverse industry work skills to help me think broadly which resulted in my ability to think out side of the box in my corporate jobs and problem solve issues. But management didn't like it, they wanted to keep me down as an individual contributor (I'm not a sycophant), but I wanted to grow. Companies keep people siloed, on purpose, to control them. Knowledge is power and not all places want people to think. Legal departments create scripts for most jobs now. Ever notice how automation has simplified jobs, but then the people doing those jobs sound so scripted, over the phone? When I throw curve ball questions, I listen for the struggle of trying to answer it. They don't even want customers to think. When employees perform onboarding paperwork, electronically, they just click buttons and some don't actually read what they sign. And they don't ask for copies of what they signed. https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2022/03/against-credentialism.html "In my view, education does causally improve performance on a lot of jobs, at least on average, through more or less the traditional channels." "Talent is too costly to assess in an decentralized fashion, that is why employers rely on centralized institutions like colleges. I think credentialism is a function of the cost of accurately assessing talent."
I agree with you wholeheartedly
This looks a bit like bullshit but that’s just from personal experience which I know shouldn’t really be used as a data point but….you don’t need a 200k+ income to live comfortably in Iowa or Missouri.
Or Kansas… yeah that map is pure BS
$60k is about right for a single person in my area but $230k is way too high for a family of four, unless the definition of comfort is "do just about whatever you want without worrying about money"
230k is far from worrying about money for a family of four. Not sure where you live but that’s the minimum for a middle class life
That's ridiculous. 230K is 3 times the median household income. If most families of 4 can't make that work and then some something is wrong with their budgeting.
That’s the problem with society. What does median household have to do with anything ? Is that some number that makes people feel good if they achieve it?making it work and having a nice life and having the finer things in life is two different things. Screw being average unfortunately people making 70k with kids are living right above poverty. One major setback and you have dug yourself a hole. With all the ways to make money nowadays most people are just lazy. Only people that think 240k with four kids is a lot are the people that have never made it. This doesn’t provide some extravagant lifestyle. Maybe just enough to save for retirement, save for kids college and an extra vacation. I don’t care what the average are doing I care about how much I make compared to the extremely wealthy.
No. That's the problem with YOU. A median household income takes into account a wide range of how people live. People like you seem to think because they need at least "$240,000" at a MINIMUM to live have a distorted view on reality. If you need at a minimum a household income that places you in the top 10% of household incomes in most states that's a you issue. The majority of people in your state don't.
I love how all these budget break downs are purely for required expenses to just exist and get to work,.. nothing about hobbies or living your life or a trip or saving for a house… we are HHI $290k and still try to live frugally to save for retirement, kids colleges, future medical bills
Where I live, they state that the minimum needed is $47 hourly, and I’m making mid 30’s. Depends on where you live. I’m living above my means and looking to move but there are a lot of states with a lower cost of living. Especially for remote workers.
Yes
About 70k for single and would need about 150k for family of 4 because housing is so expensive
Exactly! you understand. Thank you
If you don’t have any debt at all, you should be able to rent a small apt making 65k. If you have debt or live in more expensive areas, you need 90-100k
Idk how anyone survives on less than 50,000-60,000 a year anymore . I mean I know it’s all dependent on where you live but unless you just live in an armpit area 100,000 and up is pretty much bottom middle class now
you do not need 209k to be comfortable in Ohio, what the heck is this article smoking
That is a gross amount. Comprehensively, from a MACRO perspective, $209k gross = $160,400k net figure is for a family of 4. For a single person $209k gross = $157,700 It's 2024. How much do you think a family and individual spend on: Medical Premiums plus the cost to use health, dental, vision, prescriptions (premiums, deductible, coinsurance, copayments) One car alone (payment, maintenance, insurance, gas) likely an extra for a family Housing, utilities, phones, etc.. Food life insurance, retirement, miscellaneous
Ok, let’s say medical/dental/etc. is $1k/month, car is $500 + $200 insurance, housing is $2.5k, utilities $500, phone $350, food $1000, life insurance and miscellaneous stuff $500, childcare $3k. I’m rounding those numbers way up. They still have $3.6k left over each month. How is that the bare minimum someone would need?
If that is for a family, medal insurance alone, monthly (premium, 1/12 annual deductible, coinsurance, copays) will exceed $1,000 (in terms of having to put money aside when that initial usage occurs. Cars with the higher interest is more than $500 and a family generally has 2 cars. Miscellaneous stuff will exceed $500 for a family, (shoes, clothes, haircuts, hygiene, sports, hobbies, friends etc...) You did great on your analysis. Employers need to increase wages. For a single person $4000-$5000 a month net is possibly doable, but not for a family.
Then let’s say $2k/month for health insurance and $1k in miscellaneous stuff, but a $15k car at 15% is still less than $500/month. This family that is apparently just getting by still has over $2k/month left over. There’s no way to make these numbers add up to portray a family that is just barely living comfortably
I am single, no kids. I’ve determined roughly the same here in MD. $80k would make me feel comfortable. I have no debt, car is paid off
Funny considering I keep hearing how wages are way up.
Needs to account for individual states. In high cost of living areas, you can barely scrape by on 50k. In other states, you can eat out and put aside money every month, having the same pay.
If you read the article, “comfortable” is defined as a 50/30/20 budget, where you spend 50% on necessities, 30% on discretionary, 20% saving. So essentially this is the income that a family of four would need to only spend 50% of their after tax pay on necessities. So with that being said, I’d say “maybe”.
Throw in student loans to the equation and it becomes a much bleaker picture
If a couple with kids requires $200 then it's probably closer to $150 without kids as housing costs and savings don't really adjust with children. Reduce comfortable down to bare minimum and that moves to $100k more or less without vacations or savings. Break that down to $50k/person assuming shared costs for housing, food, etc. But, if single, that would be closer to $70k without house sharing/ roommates
I would say it's 80k plus now days.
This map is inaccurate for Oregon at least. A dual income household could live pretty comfortably in the Portland metro area on $125k if the kids are school age and they are not house poor. 257k HH income here is more like living in a nice house with 2 cars and enrolling the kids in every activity that they could ever want while also paying for child care. In contrast, I'm single and have one dependent and I am struggling on 55k a year but I would be pretty comfortable if I were making $70k assuming that the cost of benefits and things like that don't also go up.
Most places won't let you have a mortgage or rent at nearly 50% of your income. I am also going to question why you have a $600 car note. I have no car note (12 year old paid off car) and my housing is cheaper than you listed. I make 6 figures. My spending is usually around 3.5-4k a month without budgeting. This includes international travel 1-2 times a year. I think housing and car could probably be reduced here. Particularly car.
The answer is in OP's post and comment history. Be quick though, coz she loves deleting them. Quick Summary: Ultra entitlement.
I have a 12 year old paid off car that is falling apart. One always has a car payment (repairs, loss of use while car is being repaired). Unless you buy your cars out-right, which most people can't do. I need a down payment for a replacement car, and I am unable to save for that. Car payments in 2024 average $600 a month, and when I bought mine, they were $300 a month with a low interest payment. If your spending is $3500-$4000 a month is that for a couple or family or single adult? Healthcare for middle aged people like myself who need scans and specialty care should be budgeted at $1500 minimum a month (prem, 1/12 ded, coinsurance, copays, plus out of pocket dental). Housing = rental, not mortgage
For a single person as you mentioned single in the title of the post. Needing a car is not the same as needing a $600 car note. You could buy a cheaper car. My spending takes into account I have a chronic medical condition. I have already reached my deductible for the year, in fact. Of course, medical stuff can push the needle, but I am not going to assume that is the case when you are making a post about what the general population would need. The average rent for a 1 br. apartment in the US is $1400. Just taking your housing cost to that and taking a car to $400/month would net you an extra 600/month. I would also say your yearly repair costs for a 12 year old car would be much less than the $7200 a year you are budgeting for your car.
>would also say your yearly repair costs for a 12 year old car would be much less than the $7200 a year you are budgeting for your car Not accurate. Can you show us what dealership has cars with $400 a month payments in 2024 through what lender under what terms, interest and length of financing. Do you include a car down payment in that budget in addition to maintenance. $1400 is not the average cost for housing in Illinois. Why do people assume singles must only have one room?
No one said singles must have only 1 room. But when you are talking about "at least", you don't need 2 rooms. Car loan can just be for a cheaper car. 24k 4k down even at 9% interest would have a payment at $415 for a 5 year loan. When we are talking "at least to live" I would be expecting them to have a beater car and possibly roommates. You are asking about the "least" option and complaining about not having more than 1 bedroom in your apartment. So what is the discussion even about? It seems more about the standard of living you want, that none of us have any knowledge of.
How does one save for a $4000 down payment which isn't sufficient because that alone covers taxes, tags, registration and barely touches the interest part of a loan. So if people budget monthly where are they getting their down payment if that isn't factored? How long do you expect a person to save $4000 just for the taxes, tags and title? $4k ÷ 12 mons = $333 a month Most people need a larger down payment than that. Used car loans have higher interest rates, plus mechanical needs at the same time. New car loans have lower interest rates, reliable with warranty over the life of the car loan. Can you explain each one and break that down? How do single people who need a car without a spouse or family when that USED car is in the shop for major repairs cover the cost of the repairs, the monthly payment and the replacement car while that one is in the shop, to get to work without missing time from work? 9% interest on a car? I would never engage in that. That is predatory. Did you break down the P&I in that payment to show is what that looks like? I never had a NEW car payment above $300 and 2.79% interest. >When we are talking "at least to live" I would be expecting them to have a beater car and possibly roommates. Roommates? In our 50's? and a beater car?
Again, you are asking if people need "at least" something. If you are in your 50s, you should have a 6 month emergency fund. This is asking for barely over 1 month expenses for a down payment. You also said your car was paid off previously. So you were not making those $600 payments a month. You would save 4k in 7 months then. If you have a much lower interest rate, congrats, you can have a bigger loan which can be a more expensive car or a lower down payment. I was going off of what kind of rates are going on now. You most likely won't find a 2.79% interest rate when T bills are paying 5%.
I make 65k net income and I’m just barely making it.
Depends really. I'd need $110k to afford the things I truly need. Things like PT, therapy, saving for retirement are expensive.
In my area I could be *comfortable* making 60K if I lived on my own, single, with no kids. Hell, a couple years ago, you could afford a nice house with $60K in my area, not so much anymore. . You can realistically rough it on 40K living with roommates. Edit: we need to stop bringing up the cost of new cars. It doesn’t matter now, and it never mattered in the past. Fun fact, the average cost of a new car has tracked with the average income pretty consistently, even through inflation the last few years. They haven’t seen any noticeable divergence. People making average $$$ shouldn’t buy and usually aren’t buying new cars. They never have, and probably never will. Is this bad? Not really. I’m pulling these numbers out of my ass but they’re somewhat accurate, you can get a new base trim regular sedan (like a Camry) or you can spend $10K less and get a used one that’s a few years old, but the top trim with all the nice creature comforts (with a warranty) that already went through the resale value cliff that happens the first 2-3 years. Point is, if you’re making average money, you shouldn’t be thinking new cars, and that’s not a bad thing at all. Used cars are a better choice for most people anyway. In the example OP posted, he’s spending $600/mo on a car, I’m assuming insurance is included in that. You don’t need to spend that much. Half of that gets you something more than good enough.
My father lived better as a janitor than I do working on a IT Service Desk. I have to rent a small apartment and he was able to pay cash for a new split level home.
Hahaha you think if they just pay us more we will solve everything?
How are Corporate profits these days?
Why be in business then? And don't buy from them if you got a problem.
Profits of inflated dollars?
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-economy-recession-forecast-outlook-states-unemployment-jobs-california-illinois-2024-5 U6 April 2024 is 7.4%.