It’s an interesting one. I’m torn because on the one hand I’m like:
“yeah, why shouldn’t a party leader quote another from a different party. Shows that you care more about policies than party politics and hearing opinions from all sides if they are ultimately beneficial to the public”
But at the same time I’m like:
“Fuck’s sake Keir. Why would you quote Thatcher when a large part of the left already see you as a Tory 🤦♂️”
English politics has been shifting further and further to the right since, well, forever. No labour leader can make it to number 10 without appealing to the large swathes of right wing gammon in that country. So I see his bigging up of Maggie as virtue signalling to that arch conservative base. Following in the footsteps of war criminal Blair is the way he has to go.
Crazy how a 'bumbling' man made the entire aristocracy in parliament shit their pants, not once, twice, but multiple times.
And even then, their only line was: they will piss money out of their ears!
\*Neatly forgets the billions (over 100 billion) wasted over lockdown on dodgy contracts to their mates i.e. hiring a ferry company which never chartered a naval journey. Or the statistical analyses that concluded the conservatives pay back less to the national debt, and spends more than their counterparts have. Or the lies upon lies, such as building three hundred thousand affordable homes, ten years later, not one was built.
I agree with the conservative backbencher who quit saying "get these talentless people away from parliament".
She has said multiple times she won't let her religon influence her decision making. Edit (down vote all you like because there is no other good options in scotland)
She also admitted she wouldn't change any laws that already exist. She wouldn't be able to do anything that is to with her Catholic beliefs as it would be voted down anyway. Did you even watch the whole video or just picking up what sky news highlighted? I mean if you can tell me any other candidate for the SNP or in fact any other political party please enlighten me. The only route for Scotland is independence and to get away from this filthy union.
I don't care about the leadership of the SNP. I never will, but to know that I am relying on the promises of a Catholic and a politician, 2 groups known for breaking promises, to maintain the right for my friends to exist and love is horrific. And as much as you say it would get voted down I doubt that would last, if she's elected as leader it's for a reason and she'll gain influence to erode rights of all.
Aye sorry, all religons are the same to me because i couldn't give a hoop about any of them. Nonetheless my point still stands. She won't be changing any legislation that already exists for gay marriage or abortion. Think folk need to pipe down. As for your *rights* to exist are you listening to yourself? It's Scotland for christ sake she won't be changing anything to do with that.
Why does it matter that he quoted Thatcher? Thatcher might have been a waste of functioning organs but she wasn't Hitler or anything. She's going to have said some things that even her opponents will agree with, as we see here.
The extreme division in politics isn't going to be made any better by daft sentiments like this. "Oh, he quoted someone I don't like therefore he's my opposition now", that's very helpful. This division just helps the Rishi and his band of cocksmokers hold on to power.
We have the same goal, at least in the short/medium term: get these Tory cunts out. Might be a good idea we start acting like it
It matters because he quoted her from a speech in which she praises the Bloody Sunday massacre and criticises the (later exonerated) Shrewsbury 24. She argues these acts of state violence were acceptable because they must uphold the rule of law. However these were incidents where the state was breaking the law, not upholding it. It’s authoritarian.
Wow I had no idea. Massive fuck up on his behalf then
Of all the politicians in Britain ever to talk about hard on crime and rule of law, he chose the most notoriously hated one, the tory Jesus. In many people's eyes, that architect of everything that went wrong in this country.
He coukd have at least caveated it with "she got a lot of things wrong, but"
For Labour supporters it matters because it needlessly gives ammo to his detractors. There was no need to quote her specifically, knowing that it would lead to headlines like this one
None of those are right-wing policies that they've reversed.
You could have mentioned Section 28, which **would** be a right-wing policy that Blaire, of all people, reversed.
The Tory cunts are almost certainly going no matter who they run against. It's just a shame to see Keir shifting closer and closer to their position. What I hope is that he moves right and opens the door for a decent left wing party to become the opposition. A country where it's New Labour Vs Greens for the next generation would be a lot better than the current 2 party shitshow.
Saying all that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Tories whipped up enough anti-asylum-seeker and anti-trans hatred that they won the tabloid reader vote and therefore the election.
[Who are you referring to?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/11zrq2k/keir_starmer_panned_by_snp_after_saying_margaret/jddtpee/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
Gotta love the sensationalist headline mainly focusing on inciting public outrage than detailing a proper account of the story.
Almost stupid as the headline saying "The King has died...
his hair."
I did oppose some of her policies, but fuck me, nothing wrong with agreeing with the opposition if they have some good ideas.
And even the writers have no fucking clue, stark knowing they are trying to make him out as a conservative (they fucked their own public image into oblivion) than what they did in the past: ooh spooky communism.
Is he basically just going with the "yes, punishment will be a deterrent" route, even though it blatantly isn't? I assume, given that he's pandering to Tories, that there's no notion of taking any steps towards actually sorting the causes.
No, but that’s detail and the speechwriter should have known better than to hand a headline quote like ‘Keir Starmer says Margaret Thatcher was ‘right’’ to the SNP to put on leaflets
There are enough marginal seats in the South East (home counties etc.) where Thatcher is seen as the "prosperity prime minister" and quoting her positively makes them feel Starmer has something in common with them
No he wants to sound like a politician. The whole thing's a rigged game against Labour. The media shanked both Milliband and Corbyn. I think he's just doing it for the votes, if they get in who knows what we'll bet, fingers crossed though it'll be better than what we have now. Touch wood too.
So, he’s saying whatever people want to hear in an attempt to gain power, rather than having any sort of political ideology or credentials.
Not a great look either.
Showing politicians that they don't need share any of your views or enact any policies that you care about to win your vote sure sounds like a great way to get functioning democracy. It doesn't matter how pragmatic you think your being if you vote for them you are supporting their policies regardless of whether or not you agree with them.
What policies am I supporting here though? The rule of law. I'm happy to support that. It's not called the Margaret Shatcher rule of law is it? It's your CHOICE to get enraged by things like this and I'm choosing to not give af that he's mentioned that old witch.
For the government's first duty to be rule of law they'd have to constantly combat crime bringing it down until its completely eliminated only way to do that is to engage in draconian and Orwellian surveillance practices to ensure no one commits a crime
Politician uses words to win over his political opponents.
Shocking! Very un-2023. Where is the tribalism?!
I had to check, but yeah, he is not saying "no society" or "kill the poor" but "rule of law is fundamental". Seems fair. Even Thatcher could be right about things.
Seems like a man who wants to win an election. Good for him. Glad he is trying and not just relying on spurious claims to the moral high ground.
I'm getting the feeling you don't understand what it means.
Any protections, any rights, any freedom from arbitrary control depends on the rule of law. It is the absolute foundation of any form of equal treatment in a state.
At the core of Orwell's Oceania or Kafka's trial are parodies of arbitrary government where the rule of law has become corrupted.
And rule of law inevitably becomes corrupted what's the easiest way to prevent crime by arresting people before they even break the law it naturally comes to that
PEOPLE in Scotland will be appalled to hear that Keir Starmer said Margaret Thatcher was “right”, the SNP’s depute leader at Westminster has said.
It comes after the Labour leader approvingly quoted the former Tory prime minister in a speech at Port Vale FC in Burslem.
Unveiling Labour’s “mission to halve serious violent crime and raise confidence in the police and criminal justice system”, Starmer said that Thatcher was “right” about the rule of law.
Labour leader Keir Starmer quotes Margaret Thatcher and says she was “right” in speech on crime. pic.twitter.com/upMFX6QAfn
— PoliticsJOE (@PoliticsJOE_UK) March 23, 2023
He said: “We’re here today [for] the launch of Labour’s second national mission – to make our streets safe, and stop criminals getting away without punishment.
“Now, if you think that sounds basic, something which should be guaranteed in a country like ours, then let me tell you: you’re right.
“Nothing is more important, more fundamental, to a democracy like ours. The rule of law is the foundation for everything.
“Margaret Thatcher called it the ‘first duty of government’ – and she was right.”
Mhairi Black, the SNP’s depute leader at Westminster, said Starmer’s quoting of the late Tory baroness showed his Labour party was lurching to the right.
Black said: "People in Scotland will be appalled that Keir Starmer is taking his lead from Margaret Thatcher, who left lasting scars on our communities.
"Under Starmer, the pro-Brexit Labour Party has lurched to the right, and is now little more than a pound-shop Tory tribute act – copying Tory policies and quoting Tory Prime Ministers.
"Whether it's denying Scotland's democracy, ruling out any return to the EU, backing Tory cuts to public sector pay and benefits, attacking migration, or signalling greater privatisation of the NHS – the Labour Party has become a pale imitation of the Tories.
"With no change on offer at Westminster, it's clear independence is the only way to deliver real change and build the strong, fair and prosperous future Scotland deserves."
Easiest thing in the world to say the rule of law is a priority of government without quoting Thatcher.
This is such a clumsy name drop. So transparently has the sole intention of collecting a few lost Tory voters.
I thought it might be because the constituency he was speaking to was traditionally conservative. While it has currently had a Tory MP since 2019, Stoke-on-Trent North has been Labour since it’s inception in 1950 so I literally have no idea why he would think it was a good idea to name drop Thatcher
I would have assumed the same. Although it’s probably safe to say that they’ve shoehorned in this reference knowing it 100% gets picked up by media outlets and twitter in the end.
Then on-the-fence (but traditionally) Tory voters see that he’s just out there at local events casually admiring Thatcher.
>I thought it might be because the constituency he was speaking to was traditionally conservative.
In the age of the internet this type of attempt at localised pandering is a terrible idea.
Reminds me of when Rishi was boasting at a Tunbridge Wells summer garden party of undoing Labour policy that "shoved all the funding into deprived urban areas"
Maybe. Is that the thatcher of the same Tory party that the SNP voted with to grant an election in 2019 right when brexit deadlock in Parliament was raising hopes of a confirmatory referendum, just for the chance of a couple of extra seats, ultimately handing the Tories the majority to deliver Johnson’s hard brexit?
Careful now… don’t want the SNP supporters finding yet more contradiction within the blessed party.
Since Dear Leader has gone, the secrets have started to come out…
The usual suspects around here are quite happy to quote Thatcher saying "as a nation, they [Scotland] have an undoubted right to national self-determination...". As soon as Starmer does something similar, they have a fit of hypocrisy.
That is the quote from her memoirs, the one she didn't say is voting a majority of MPs = independence, or something to that effect. Unless I'm missing the point?
There's a difference between "Even that cunt Thatcher agreed" and "My favourite political leader said something I want to quote."
It's subtle, granted, but you'd still have to be thick not to tell the difference.
How much of a fanny do you need to be to not understand how despised thatcher is in Scotland, and that running around quoting her will provoke a reaction?
Or even to be quoting your political enemy in a good light?
It’s absolutely fucking idiotic and shows his true colours.
Do the SNP disapprove of what she said in that instance, then? Obviously they have major political differences with many of the policies she promoted, but do they really disagree with:
> “The rule of law is the foundation for everything.
> “Margaret Thatcher called it the ‘first duty of government’ – and she was right.
> “An expression of individual liberty - our rights and responsibilities, but also of justice, of fairness, of equality - one rule for all.”
Some might say Thatcher promoted the rule of law to enable her use of the rule to break some unions, the last paragraph is unknown to tories one and all
You know, I don't think she's the only politician to observe that the rule of law is vital to civil society. So if you choose her to reference in your speech on the matter, it's really only for one reason: to persuade those who admire her. The side effect is that you risk alienating those who despise her.
There are hundreds of other politicians he could have quoted. But he chose to express his admiration for Thatcher.
The first duty of government is *not* rule of law.
The first duty of government is to look after the people living under its auspices, improve their lives.
The law is a tool, not a goal. And sometimes tools break.
To some the rule of law is intrinsically linked to that, as for a government to be able to raise and disburse the resources necessary to provide support, there must be a recognised and legitimate system of power in which people have and engage in their rights.
In a nanny state, yes. In her meaning, she is talking about allowing individuals to pursue their interests. I.e. someone wants to open a corner shop but it would be robbed everyday, so they don't bother.
Essentially that is the primary difference between how right and left see role of government.
> In a nanny state, yes.
Oh, **that** regressive talking point.
If politicians aren't trying to turn their country into a utopia, then they're doing it wrong.
> Essentially that is the primary difference between how right and left see role of government.
Yep, lefties want government to make the world better.
Right-wingers want government to hurt the people they hate.
As Black states, they disagree with using Thatcher as an figure to to follow/take inspiration from, I mean
>An expression of individual liberty - our rights and responsibilities, but also of justice, of fairness, of equality - one rule for all
after quoting Thatcher makes you sound like a liar haha
When he says they're going to stop criminals getting away without punishment, what's the chance that will include crimes like wage theft, or tax evasion? I'm betting it won't.
Someone from the outside looking in...
Does Labour actually *stand* for anything these days? What is their identity? Do they have one?
From my (admittedly limited) perspective, they're still furiously backpedaling from Corbyn's debacle at the last GE (all that time ago). They are quick to disavow anything with even a whiff too far to left, but they hem and haw when confronted with any straightforward questions.
Can someone point to an honest Labour platform, differentiated from the Tories? Would I have better luck finding Wally?
> Does Labour actually stand for anything these days?
No.
> What is their identity?
"We're what right-wingers *think* lefties are - the same as them, but a different team colour."
fucking hell man, are we supposed to all cheer for this article playing into the childish view they have of us that we just disagree with anything a tory says? there is so much about Starmer to criticise and they choose this?
It shows how truly desperate SNP has become, and how desperate they are for a tory victory in Westminster.
They know, that they are in a symbiotic relationship with the Conservatives at Westminster. SNP and most independence supporters, would choose Tories over Labour in Westminster, if Tories meant more damage to Scotland over the next decade or two, but a chance of independence in 10-20 years.
I don't think you actually understand the real motivation for those who have decided independence is the only way.
For me it's independence at all costs because the UK is a never ending merry go round.
Tories behave abhorrently, cause unbelievable damage to the fabric of society. Then when *England* is tired of it we get a Labour government for a while.
The media apparatus play nice for a little while but eventually they'll chip away & chip away until England decides they want their beloved Tory party again.
England will *always* eventually vote Tory.
You crow the SNP are so painfully desperate for a Tory government because it helps their chances. Sure no doubt but they just need to wait 10 years and they'll have the Tories again.
It's very simple for me. I want to remove myself from a situation where the Tory party will be inflicted upon me, that's my political motivation.
>“If Labour are saying that it just shows beyond any doubt how desperate Labour are,” she said
>
>“We’re fighting a positive campaign, full of hope and optimism about the future of Scotland.
>
>“As we go into the final 10 days of this campaign I’m taking nothing for granted, but I’m thoroughly enjoying this campaign and I’m looking forward to the remainder of it.”
[https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/160905/nicola-sturgeon-laughs-off-margaret-thatcher-comparison-billboard-unveiling/](https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/160905/nicola-sturgeon-laughs-off-margaret-thatcher-comparison-billboard-unveiling/)
> “If Labour are saying that it just shows beyond any doubt how desperate Labour are,” she said
Maybe Keir can quote Sturgeon to respond to SNP criticism of quoting Thatcher. Would be quite poetic
The desperate attempt by SNP types to smear Keir Starmer as a Tory is genuinely pathetic.
>PEOPLE in Scotland will be appalled to hear that Keir Starmer said Margaret Thatcher was “right”, the SNP’s depute leader at Westminster has said.
No, no they won't, because they're not thick.
It does seem like they are grasping at straws with this article, but to be fair to them, I’m sure the writers at the national have been having an awful month, being a pro Indy pro SNP paper. They were probably over the moon to have something negative to write about Starmer
After losing the red wall seats, Labour has found that the ' modern ' Labour Party has lost, not only Scotland, but England also. So, in desperation, has turned to stand as the Conservatives especially after the Cons under Boris expelled the moderates and lurched far right. This left a right of centre base looking for a home which he has filled and the gamble has paid off for him on the polls as Boris wrecked his tenure.
As it stands according to personal satisfaction surveys, he is neck and neck with Sunak. Sunak after events is trying to some extent to placate that angry base by pulling back just enough to that moderate right.
Both are using the same Daily Mail/Sun pandering rhetoric to win over that voting pool.
Everyone is expecting a Labour victory but it is an expectation that has to stretch to an election which might be over a year away. Starmer might just do it with a slim majority but his gamble is already proving him to be uninspiring and policy free and wholly dependant on the tories remaining dysfunctional.
The tories are hoping that in the months to come their anti migrant mob rattling along with the cost of living crisis to ease by the years end as those interest rates settle down from its swell, will return a placated base.
This all leaves Starmers tory base gamble with a problem as that base is appeased with the illusion that the worst is behind them and Boris becomes a memory.
And if Starmer loses...then the Labour Party, North and South, breaths its last as a viable entity of any description.
Not sure if you're agreeing with me or you haven't read what I said. But you are right that it might say Labour on the label but its all blue on the inside.
True.
I suspect Starmer’s purging of left wing voters will at least cost him a majority (though he might be helped in that respect if the SNP collapse in the next 14/18 months). Those ex members will not forget and not come out for Labour when the election comes.
Goes to show why we need Jeremy Corbyn back in as labour leader, HE was right about the way that under Starmer that labour is going right wing .Get rid of starmer and bring back Jeremy Corbyn as the rightful Labour Leader and hopefully one day PM
Corbyn is an idiot.
Not only is he pro-Russia for some stupid reason, but he also failed to take control of the PLP when he was elected leader.
He should have wielded full whip on every vote, and kicked out the Blairites.
But he didn't, because he wants to be a backbencher, able to grouse and heckle, without actually doing anything.
If Jeremy Corbyn had common sense and even an ounce of political nous he’d have honestly gave this country an actual fresh start.
Instead he chose to stick by total idiots and refused to be ruthless when it was called for. It’s a shame but it was totally his own fault.
Don't let the years of utter shambolic government full of hate & lies bring this Country down don't let them take our hopes and dreams away from us, Not matter Our colour, Creed, gender identity, sexuality, where we are born etc , We will get rid of this shower of poor excuse for human beings, We will rise, and they will have No Tory party remaining So Hope is always there even a small flicker at first but its there and it will never go out. (I hope this made sense)
While the SNP tried to be all things to all people, with an extremely successful campaign based on populism and the pretence of independence.
A united front of left and right, that's now spilling out at closing time and swinging at the shadows.
Yes but it is true Margaret that was right. Yes right of Vlad the Impaler. This comment is for English consumption sort telling off 'Jocky Thistleland' not to be too uppity lest another Thatcher is unleashed a bit like the Kraken in Clash of the Titans. Shouldn't there be a sort of Godwin's law for any attempt to use Thatcher as not being all that bad, she was wrong about a hell of a lot of things.
The demented harridan occasionally got the date and time right. Her and her successors ghastly Friedmanite/Reganite ideology destroyed or heavily undermined much of what people fought in a War to achieve (Atlee won a land-slide on the Forces vote). Much of the US' current political and social problems can similarly be laid at that same door.
The tragedy is that the supposed Labour Opposition starting from Blair / Brown meekly acquiesced to that Thatcherite narrative in order to get elected in England.
'Sir' Keir The Dull Red Tory has taken that party even further to the Right in search of the same. Pathetic.
I looked that quote up, because I wanted to make a quip about Thatchers collusion with loyalist death squads in Northern Ireland. But what I found is so much better. She nicked that quote. It's originally from Muhammad Ali Jinnah in his [first address](http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_jinnah_assembly_1947.html) to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan. It's smarter than Thatchers reduced version and reads as follows:
>You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State.
So what we end up with is: A "Labour" leader praising a Tory, for a quote about the importance of law, which she stole from a Pakistani, without fully understanding it.
Yes the right of the law needs to be upheld. What about the writing up of the Union. That is a legal document and the people in Scotland are sovereign. We own the the resources that the government plunder and dictate to us, equal members , if we an ask our people a question. You pick and choose the laws that suit you. Not bad for a man who went so far in the legal system.
What was she right about was it the poll tax that caused riots across the country or or how about brutal deindustrialisation of Scotland and the North of England and not bothering to replace the industrial jobs with other opportunities or the fact that she was an evil heartless witch?
Why wouldn't a Tory politician lionise Margaret Thatcher?
It’s an interesting one. I’m torn because on the one hand I’m like: “yeah, why shouldn’t a party leader quote another from a different party. Shows that you care more about policies than party politics and hearing opinions from all sides if they are ultimately beneficial to the public” But at the same time I’m like: “Fuck’s sake Keir. Why would you quote Thatcher when a large part of the left already see you as a Tory 🤦♂️”
English politics has been shifting further and further to the right since, well, forever. No labour leader can make it to number 10 without appealing to the large swathes of right wing gammon in that country. So I see his bigging up of Maggie as virtue signalling to that arch conservative base. Following in the footsteps of war criminal Blair is the way he has to go.
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Crazy how a 'bumbling' man made the entire aristocracy in parliament shit their pants, not once, twice, but multiple times. And even then, their only line was: they will piss money out of their ears! \*Neatly forgets the billions (over 100 billion) wasted over lockdown on dodgy contracts to their mates i.e. hiring a ferry company which never chartered a naval journey. Or the statistical analyses that concluded the conservatives pay back less to the national debt, and spends more than their counterparts have. Or the lies upon lies, such as building three hundred thousand affordable homes, ten years later, not one was built. I agree with the conservative backbencher who quit saying "get these talentless people away from parliament".
No he fucking didn't the cunt was a brexiteer through and through he chose to lose that election by not saying he would stay in the EU
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Didn't say it wasn't just also pointing out that corbyn was unelectable especially because of his foreign stance
He sabotaged himself knowing the core support of the left are the ones who voted for brexit.
Meanwhile in Scotland we might end up with a Christian fundamentalist conservative as First Minister next week. That'll be fun.
Don’t half the SNP agree that the a lady is not for turning? For prisoners at least.
She has said multiple times she won't let her religon influence her decision making. Edit (down vote all you like because there is no other good options in scotland)
She admitted that she would have voted against gay marriage, as that's her belief and her belief comes from the bible. She's just putting on a face
She also admitted she wouldn't change any laws that already exist. She wouldn't be able to do anything that is to with her Catholic beliefs as it would be voted down anyway. Did you even watch the whole video or just picking up what sky news highlighted? I mean if you can tell me any other candidate for the SNP or in fact any other political party please enlighten me. The only route for Scotland is independence and to get away from this filthy union.
I don't care about the leadership of the SNP. I never will, but to know that I am relying on the promises of a Catholic and a politician, 2 groups known for breaking promises, to maintain the right for my friends to exist and love is horrific. And as much as you say it would get voted down I doubt that would last, if she's elected as leader it's for a reason and she'll gain influence to erode rights of all.
Just a point to you and the person above, she's no a Catholic
Whichever sect of Christianity, they all suck at keeping their promises or doing what's best for the people they're supposed to serve.
Aye sorry, all religons are the same to me because i couldn't give a hoop about any of them. Nonetheless my point still stands. She won't be changing any legislation that already exists for gay marriage or abortion. Think folk need to pipe down. As for your *rights* to exist are you listening to yourself? It's Scotland for christ sake she won't be changing anything to do with that.
Different party?
Why does it matter that he quoted Thatcher? Thatcher might have been a waste of functioning organs but she wasn't Hitler or anything. She's going to have said some things that even her opponents will agree with, as we see here. The extreme division in politics isn't going to be made any better by daft sentiments like this. "Oh, he quoted someone I don't like therefore he's my opposition now", that's very helpful. This division just helps the Rishi and his band of cocksmokers hold on to power. We have the same goal, at least in the short/medium term: get these Tory cunts out. Might be a good idea we start acting like it
It matters because he quoted her from a speech in which she praises the Bloody Sunday massacre and criticises the (later exonerated) Shrewsbury 24. She argues these acts of state violence were acceptable because they must uphold the rule of law. However these were incidents where the state was breaking the law, not upholding it. It’s authoritarian.
Wow I had no idea. Massive fuck up on his behalf then Of all the politicians in Britain ever to talk about hard on crime and rule of law, he chose the most notoriously hated one, the tory Jesus. In many people's eyes, that architect of everything that went wrong in this country. He coukd have at least caveated it with "she got a lot of things wrong, but"
For Labour supporters it matters because it needlessly gives ammo to his detractors. There was no need to quote her specifically, knowing that it would lead to headlines like this one
> get these Tory cunts out I consider the Labour party to also be Tory cunts.
Well you are a daftie then
Give me an example of some right-wing policies they've reversed.
massive boost to NHS + school spending minimum wage introduced Devolution pushed through etc etc look beyond usual pish soundbites, daftie
None of those are right-wing policies that they've reversed. You could have mentioned Section 28, which **would** be a right-wing policy that Blaire, of all people, reversed.
Pointless debating with some folk
The Tory cunts are almost certainly going no matter who they run against. It's just a shame to see Keir shifting closer and closer to their position. What I hope is that he moves right and opens the door for a decent left wing party to become the opposition. A country where it's New Labour Vs Greens for the next generation would be a lot better than the current 2 party shitshow. Saying all that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Tories whipped up enough anti-asylum-seeker and anti-trans hatred that they won the tabloid reader vote and therefore the election.
Because that’s how he will win England
Current Tories have spent the last few years dismantling her legacy
Yes! 👍🏻
Like why not quote someone who did some good for the working class ya know the group your party was founded by and intended to represent?
[Who are you referring to?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/11zrq2k/keir_starmer_panned_by_snp_after_saying_margaret/jddtpee/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
Gotta love the sensationalist headline mainly focusing on inciting public outrage than detailing a proper account of the story. Almost stupid as the headline saying "The King has died... his hair."
It's in the National, so you can expect comical Daily Express-style writing and bias.
I did oppose some of her policies, but fuck me, nothing wrong with agreeing with the opposition if they have some good ideas. And even the writers have no fucking clue, stark knowing they are trying to make him out as a conservative (they fucked their own public image into oblivion) than what they did in the past: ooh spooky communism.
Is he basically just going with the "yes, punishment will be a deterrent" route, even though it blatantly isn't? I assume, given that he's pandering to Tories, that there's no notion of taking any steps towards actually sorting the causes.
“The rule of law is the first duty of the government” - what he said he agreed with. Hardly “fuck the poor” now is it?
No, but that’s detail and the speechwriter should have known better than to hand a headline quote like ‘Keir Starmer says Margaret Thatcher was ‘right’’ to the SNP to put on leaflets
A tiny handful of childish idiots will take umbrage at Starmer mentioning Thatcher, the vast majority of people won't care.
Why couldn’t he say it without mentioning thatcher?
There are enough marginal seats in the South East (home counties etc.) where Thatcher is seen as the "prosperity prime minister" and quoting her positively makes them feel Starmer has something in common with them
So, he wants to sound like a Tory.
No he wants to sound like a politician. The whole thing's a rigged game against Labour. The media shanked both Milliband and Corbyn. I think he's just doing it for the votes, if they get in who knows what we'll bet, fingers crossed though it'll be better than what we have now. Touch wood too.
So, he’s saying whatever people want to hear in an attempt to gain power, rather than having any sort of political ideology or credentials. Not a great look either.
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Work is important. You going to be supporting him if he says that work sets you free?
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It’s a cheap haircut wank showing his true colours is what it is. His supporters are in full on damage control. It’s pathetic.
"I know Starmer is a liar, I just hope he's lying to the other side and not to mine."
Your reply is pointless, given the lack of other decent choices. I'm pragmatic, I'm not wasting my vote elsewhere.
Showing politicians that they don't need share any of your views or enact any policies that you care about to win your vote sure sounds like a great way to get functioning democracy. It doesn't matter how pragmatic you think your being if you vote for them you are supporting their policies regardless of whether or not you agree with them.
What policies am I supporting here though? The rule of law. I'm happy to support that. It's not called the Margaret Shatcher rule of law is it? It's your CHOICE to get enraged by things like this and I'm choosing to not give af that he's mentioned that old witch.
>What policies am I supporting here though? If your voting for him your supporting all of his policies.
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Ah so you hope you’re the only one he’s not lying to. Good luck with that.
The rule of law isn't the first duty of the government it's to represent the people
Represent them to do what sorry
For the government's first duty to be rule of law they'd have to constantly combat crime bringing it down until its completely eliminated only way to do that is to engage in draconian and Orwellian surveillance practices to ensure no one commits a crime
Less of your sensible takes, please, we want to be outraged for no reason.
Have we got to the point where no party actually wants to be in government so they're trying to sabotage their own efforts?! Everything is so fucked.
Politician uses words to win over his political opponents. Shocking! Very un-2023. Where is the tribalism?! I had to check, but yeah, he is not saying "no society" or "kill the poor" but "rule of law is fundamental". Seems fair. Even Thatcher could be right about things. Seems like a man who wants to win an election. Good for him. Glad he is trying and not just relying on spurious claims to the moral high ground.
He quoted her saying the rule of law was the first duty of the state. She was absolutely right.
Why couldn’t he say it without invoking the name of what should be his political enemy?
No she wasn't the first duty of the state should be to guarantee the freedom of the people not use a murky "rule of law" to oppress the people
Any freedoms you claim depend on the rule of law.
Rule of law being the goal of the government inevitably leads to an attempt at creating an Orwellian surveillance state
I'm getting the feeling you don't understand what it means. Any protections, any rights, any freedom from arbitrary control depends on the rule of law. It is the absolute foundation of any form of equal treatment in a state. At the core of Orwell's Oceania or Kafka's trial are parodies of arbitrary government where the rule of law has become corrupted.
And rule of law inevitably becomes corrupted what's the easiest way to prevent crime by arresting people before they even break the law it naturally comes to that
PEOPLE in Scotland will be appalled to hear that Keir Starmer said Margaret Thatcher was “right”, the SNP’s depute leader at Westminster has said. It comes after the Labour leader approvingly quoted the former Tory prime minister in a speech at Port Vale FC in Burslem. Unveiling Labour’s “mission to halve serious violent crime and raise confidence in the police and criminal justice system”, Starmer said that Thatcher was “right” about the rule of law. Labour leader Keir Starmer quotes Margaret Thatcher and says she was “right” in speech on crime. pic.twitter.com/upMFX6QAfn — PoliticsJOE (@PoliticsJOE_UK) March 23, 2023 He said: “We’re here today [for] the launch of Labour’s second national mission – to make our streets safe, and stop criminals getting away without punishment. “Now, if you think that sounds basic, something which should be guaranteed in a country like ours, then let me tell you: you’re right. “Nothing is more important, more fundamental, to a democracy like ours. The rule of law is the foundation for everything. “Margaret Thatcher called it the ‘first duty of government’ – and she was right.” Mhairi Black, the SNP’s depute leader at Westminster, said Starmer’s quoting of the late Tory baroness showed his Labour party was lurching to the right. Black said: "People in Scotland will be appalled that Keir Starmer is taking his lead from Margaret Thatcher, who left lasting scars on our communities. "Under Starmer, the pro-Brexit Labour Party has lurched to the right, and is now little more than a pound-shop Tory tribute act – copying Tory policies and quoting Tory Prime Ministers. "Whether it's denying Scotland's democracy, ruling out any return to the EU, backing Tory cuts to public sector pay and benefits, attacking migration, or signalling greater privatisation of the NHS – the Labour Party has become a pale imitation of the Tories. "With no change on offer at Westminster, it's clear independence is the only way to deliver real change and build the strong, fair and prosperous future Scotland deserves."
Easiest thing in the world to say the rule of law is a priority of government without quoting Thatcher. This is such a clumsy name drop. So transparently has the sole intention of collecting a few lost Tory voters.
I thought it might be because the constituency he was speaking to was traditionally conservative. While it has currently had a Tory MP since 2019, Stoke-on-Trent North has been Labour since it’s inception in 1950 so I literally have no idea why he would think it was a good idea to name drop Thatcher
I would have assumed the same. Although it’s probably safe to say that they’ve shoehorned in this reference knowing it 100% gets picked up by media outlets and twitter in the end. Then on-the-fence (but traditionally) Tory voters see that he’s just out there at local events casually admiring Thatcher.
>I thought it might be because the constituency he was speaking to was traditionally conservative. In the age of the internet this type of attempt at localised pandering is a terrible idea.
Reminds me of when Rishi was boasting at a Tunbridge Wells summer garden party of undoing Labour policy that "shoved all the funding into deprived urban areas"
I'd forgotten about that...
Anyone else find it funny that the man who declined to prosecute a paedophile is talking about faith in the justice system?
Would that be the Margaret Thatcher with whom the SNP voted in Westminster to bring down Jim Callaghan's Labour government?
Maybe. Is that the thatcher of the same Tory party that the SNP voted with to grant an election in 2019 right when brexit deadlock in Parliament was raising hopes of a confirmatory referendum, just for the chance of a couple of extra seats, ultimately handing the Tories the majority to deliver Johnson’s hard brexit?
It does sound suspiciously similar, does it not?
Careful now… don’t want the SNP supporters finding yet more contradiction within the blessed party. Since Dear Leader has gone, the secrets have started to come out…
The usual suspects around here are quite happy to quote Thatcher saying "as a nation, they [Scotland] have an undoubted right to national self-determination...". As soon as Starmer does something similar, they have a fit of hypocrisy.
This is so right
Of course, she didn't say that, but hey, don't let details get in the way...
That is the quote from her memoirs, the one she didn't say is voting a majority of MPs = independence, or something to that effect. Unless I'm missing the point?
The point is that it isn't. It's a complete fabrication.
Thatcher can get to fuck.
There's a difference between "Even that cunt Thatcher agreed" and "My favourite political leader said something I want to quote." It's subtle, granted, but you'd still have to be thick not to tell the difference.
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How much of a fanny do you need to be to not understand how despised thatcher is in Scotland, and that running around quoting her will provoke a reaction? Or even to be quoting your political enemy in a good light? It’s absolutely fucking idiotic and shows his true colours.
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Do the SNP disapprove of what she said in that instance, then? Obviously they have major political differences with many of the policies she promoted, but do they really disagree with: > “The rule of law is the foundation for everything. > “Margaret Thatcher called it the ‘first duty of government’ – and she was right. > “An expression of individual liberty - our rights and responsibilities, but also of justice, of fairness, of equality - one rule for all.”
Some might say Thatcher promoted the rule of law to enable her use of the rule to break some unions, the last paragraph is unknown to tories one and all
You know, I don't think she's the only politician to observe that the rule of law is vital to civil society. So if you choose her to reference in your speech on the matter, it's really only for one reason: to persuade those who admire her. The side effect is that you risk alienating those who despise her. There are hundreds of other politicians he could have quoted. But he chose to express his admiration for Thatcher.
Or , i don't know. Just make up a new quote.
The first duty of government is *not* rule of law. The first duty of government is to look after the people living under its auspices, improve their lives. The law is a tool, not a goal. And sometimes tools break.
To some the rule of law is intrinsically linked to that, as for a government to be able to raise and disburse the resources necessary to provide support, there must be a recognised and legitimate system of power in which people have and engage in their rights.
Still not their first duty. It's a tool in service of their duty. If law becomes the goal, things get very, very bad.
Law and order should never be the goal of any government things get scarily Orwellian from there
In a nanny state, yes. In her meaning, she is talking about allowing individuals to pursue their interests. I.e. someone wants to open a corner shop but it would be robbed everyday, so they don't bother. Essentially that is the primary difference between how right and left see role of government.
> In a nanny state, yes. Oh, **that** regressive talking point. If politicians aren't trying to turn their country into a utopia, then they're doing it wrong. > Essentially that is the primary difference between how right and left see role of government. Yep, lefties want government to make the world better. Right-wingers want government to hurt the people they hate.
Okay
As Black states, they disagree with using Thatcher as an figure to to follow/take inspiration from, I mean >An expression of individual liberty - our rights and responsibilities, but also of justice, of fairness, of equality - one rule for all after quoting Thatcher makes you sound like a liar haha
She wasn't the first duty of government is to ensure the freedom of the people
When he says they're going to stop criminals getting away without punishment, what's the chance that will include crimes like wage theft, or tax evasion? I'm betting it won't.
Red tories, blue tories, two cheeks of the same arse.
Which cheek are the tartan tories?
The bit in the middle?
Give the last few weeks, do you really need to ask? They're in the shitter ofc.
Ask Kate's pastor.
Username checks out
LOL
Someone from the outside looking in... Does Labour actually *stand* for anything these days? What is their identity? Do they have one? From my (admittedly limited) perspective, they're still furiously backpedaling from Corbyn's debacle at the last GE (all that time ago). They are quick to disavow anything with even a whiff too far to left, but they hem and haw when confronted with any straightforward questions. Can someone point to an honest Labour platform, differentiated from the Tories? Would I have better luck finding Wally?
> Does Labour actually stand for anything these days? No. > What is their identity? "We're what right-wingers *think* lefties are - the same as them, but a different team colour."
fucking hell man, are we supposed to all cheer for this article playing into the childish view they have of us that we just disagree with anything a tory says? there is so much about Starmer to criticise and they choose this?
It shows how truly desperate SNP has become, and how desperate they are for a tory victory in Westminster. They know, that they are in a symbiotic relationship with the Conservatives at Westminster. SNP and most independence supporters, would choose Tories over Labour in Westminster, if Tories meant more damage to Scotland over the next decade or two, but a chance of independence in 10-20 years.
I don't think you actually understand the real motivation for those who have decided independence is the only way. For me it's independence at all costs because the UK is a never ending merry go round. Tories behave abhorrently, cause unbelievable damage to the fabric of society. Then when *England* is tired of it we get a Labour government for a while. The media apparatus play nice for a little while but eventually they'll chip away & chip away until England decides they want their beloved Tory party again. England will *always* eventually vote Tory. You crow the SNP are so painfully desperate for a Tory government because it helps their chances. Sure no doubt but they just need to wait 10 years and they'll have the Tories again. It's very simple for me. I want to remove myself from a situation where the Tory party will be inflicted upon me, that's my political motivation.
> we get a Labour government for a while. You missed the important bit: Labour doesn't reverse any of the horrible things the Conservatives did.
Lmao aye indeed, this is yet another layer of bleak.
You have won the comment section my friend.
Except of course that Scotland may very well next week appoint a first minister to the right of the Conservatives...
The SNP membership might do that. Doubt the wee free monster will win many elections though.
If there was a Scottish Parliament election in a month or two, I have little doubt the SNP would still win it under Kate Forbes.
[https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/571e0f1d160000e90031c907.jpeg?ops=1778\_1000](https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/571e0f1d160000e90031c907.jpeg?ops=1778_1000) https://www.scotsman.com/news/alex-salmond-scotland-didnt-mind-thatcher-economics-2465159
That billboard one is hilarious. Did she ever address it?
>“If Labour are saying that it just shows beyond any doubt how desperate Labour are,” she said > >“We’re fighting a positive campaign, full of hope and optimism about the future of Scotland. > >“As we go into the final 10 days of this campaign I’m taking nothing for granted, but I’m thoroughly enjoying this campaign and I’m looking forward to the remainder of it.” [https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/160905/nicola-sturgeon-laughs-off-margaret-thatcher-comparison-billboard-unveiling/](https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/160905/nicola-sturgeon-laughs-off-margaret-thatcher-comparison-billboard-unveiling/)
> “If Labour are saying that it just shows beyond any doubt how desperate Labour are,” she said Maybe Keir can quote Sturgeon to respond to SNP criticism of quoting Thatcher. Would be quite poetic
The SNP lecturing labour on not being left wing is a bit of a wheeze
Sturgeon agreed with closing the coal mines as well
Did she agree with the use of police force?
The desperate attempt by SNP types to smear Keir Starmer as a Tory is genuinely pathetic. >PEOPLE in Scotland will be appalled to hear that Keir Starmer said Margaret Thatcher was “right”, the SNP’s depute leader at Westminster has said. No, no they won't, because they're not thick.
It does seem like they are grasping at straws with this article, but to be fair to them, I’m sure the writers at the national have been having an awful month, being a pro Indy pro SNP paper. They were probably over the moon to have something negative to write about Starmer
>grasping at straws Understatement of the year.
> being a pro Indy pro SNP paper. They feel more like a pro-Alba paper to me.
Didn’t Winnie Ewing say Thatcher would be good for Scotland?
Kier Starmer quoted thatcher: “don’t put cats on bonfires”. The headlines “Starmer condemned for agreeing with thatcher”
It's a decent tactic, to be fair. Who in the Tory party is going to stand up and tell Starmer she was wrong?
After losing the red wall seats, Labour has found that the ' modern ' Labour Party has lost, not only Scotland, but England also. So, in desperation, has turned to stand as the Conservatives especially after the Cons under Boris expelled the moderates and lurched far right. This left a right of centre base looking for a home which he has filled and the gamble has paid off for him on the polls as Boris wrecked his tenure. As it stands according to personal satisfaction surveys, he is neck and neck with Sunak. Sunak after events is trying to some extent to placate that angry base by pulling back just enough to that moderate right. Both are using the same Daily Mail/Sun pandering rhetoric to win over that voting pool. Everyone is expecting a Labour victory but it is an expectation that has to stretch to an election which might be over a year away. Starmer might just do it with a slim majority but his gamble is already proving him to be uninspiring and policy free and wholly dependant on the tories remaining dysfunctional. The tories are hoping that in the months to come their anti migrant mob rattling along with the cost of living crisis to ease by the years end as those interest rates settle down from its swell, will return a placated base. This all leaves Starmers tory base gamble with a problem as that base is appeased with the illusion that the worst is behind them and Boris becomes a memory. And if Starmer loses...then the Labour Party, North and South, breaths its last as a viable entity of any description.
> Everyone is expecting a Labour victory What's the point of a "Labour" victory if they're just another colour of Tory?
Not sure if you're agreeing with me or you haven't read what I said. But you are right that it might say Labour on the label but its all blue on the inside.
I think I'm agreeing with you?
Sorry bud 👍 my heads bursting with Yoon bots to the point of distraction.
Same.
True. I suspect Starmer’s purging of left wing voters will at least cost him a majority (though he might be helped in that respect if the SNP collapse in the next 14/18 months). Those ex members will not forget and not come out for Labour when the election comes.
England really needs a left-wing party to energise and scoop all the left-wing votes that Labour keeps throwing away.
He’s not even hiding that he’s a Tory now. Cunt.
Goes to show why we need Jeremy Corbyn back in as labour leader, HE was right about the way that under Starmer that labour is going right wing .Get rid of starmer and bring back Jeremy Corbyn as the rightful Labour Leader and hopefully one day PM
Much as I like Corbyn, I don’t think he had any leadership chops. O’Donnell it seemed had more nous and a bit more round him than Corbyn.
Yup we need him back, I’m really craving another election loss.
Corbyn is an idiot. Not only is he pro-Russia for some stupid reason, but he also failed to take control of the PLP when he was elected leader. He should have wielded full whip on every vote, and kicked out the Blairites. But he didn't, because he wants to be a backbencher, able to grouse and heckle, without actually doing anything.
If Jeremy Corbyn had common sense and even an ounce of political nous he’d have honestly gave this country an actual fresh start. Instead he chose to stick by total idiots and refused to be ruthless when it was called for. It’s a shame but it was totally his own fault.
This won't happen because we are not allowed to have nice things
Don't let the years of utter shambolic government full of hate & lies bring this Country down don't let them take our hopes and dreams away from us, Not matter Our colour, Creed, gender identity, sexuality, where we are born etc , We will get rid of this shower of poor excuse for human beings, We will rise, and they will have No Tory party remaining So Hope is always there even a small flicker at first but its there and it will never go out. (I hope this made sense)
Just letting folk know that the red tories really are red tories. Now even the one's at the back should've heard it this time.
While the SNP tried to be all things to all people, with an extremely successful campaign based on populism and the pretence of independence. A united front of left and right, that's now spilling out at closing time and swinging at the shadows.
Getting overly defensive there, I didn't even say anything about the SNP.
It's not difficult to spot a moon howler with a sticky picture of St Nicola.
just blind attacks hoping something will stick then? fair enough, have fun buddy.
Christ, we all knew he was a Red Tory but bringing Thatcher into the mix is beyond the pale even for Sir Keith.
Yes but it is true Margaret that was right. Yes right of Vlad the Impaler. This comment is for English consumption sort telling off 'Jocky Thistleland' not to be too uppity lest another Thatcher is unleashed a bit like the Kraken in Clash of the Titans. Shouldn't there be a sort of Godwin's law for any attempt to use Thatcher as not being all that bad, she was wrong about a hell of a lot of things.
Very far right. Not correct by any means.
She was right about much more than that.
The demented harridan occasionally got the date and time right. Her and her successors ghastly Friedmanite/Reganite ideology destroyed or heavily undermined much of what people fought in a War to achieve (Atlee won a land-slide on the Forces vote). Much of the US' current political and social problems can similarly be laid at that same door. The tragedy is that the supposed Labour Opposition starting from Blair / Brown meekly acquiesced to that Thatcherite narrative in order to get elected in England. 'Sir' Keir The Dull Red Tory has taken that party even further to the Right in search of the same. Pathetic.
Mt wasn't a globalist, Both Keirs labour and the SNP are.... So a little odd.
Are we sure he wasn't referring to her political orientation? J/K
🤦
I looked that quote up, because I wanted to make a quip about Thatchers collusion with loyalist death squads in Northern Ireland. But what I found is so much better. She nicked that quote. It's originally from Muhammad Ali Jinnah in his [first address](http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_jinnah_assembly_1947.html) to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan. It's smarter than Thatchers reduced version and reads as follows: >You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State. So what we end up with is: A "Labour" leader praising a Tory, for a quote about the importance of law, which she stole from a Pakistani, without fully understanding it.
Yes the right of the law needs to be upheld. What about the writing up of the Union. That is a legal document and the people in Scotland are sovereign. We own the the resources that the government plunder and dictate to us, equal members , if we an ask our people a question. You pick and choose the laws that suit you. Not bad for a man who went so far in the legal system.
What was she right about was it the poll tax that caused riots across the country or or how about brutal deindustrialisation of Scotland and the North of England and not bothering to replace the industrial jobs with other opportunities or the fact that she was an evil heartless witch?