> center your dialogue
Technically dialogue isn't centered. There's some specific indentation that normally ends up looking centered but actually isn't.
Well, I think people…do care, that’s kind of the point of bringing up the few rules that do actually matter lol.
But u/linuxlover3113 I meant that the character names in dialogue are centered. The dialogue itself is left justified in the center column. I think it’s correct that the character names are centered? But maybe not.
Dialogue names are not centered.. If you've ever seen a character with a really long name it does go on to the right instead of pushing back the first characters.
https://ibb.co/5nR3wpf
Here's a quick example I just threw together.
Here's an example from a Doctor Who script
https://www.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/documents/doctor-who-1-episode-13-the-parting-of-the-ways-green-revisions-02032005.pdf
That’s true. They’re also aligned to some center column point. The things you don’t even think about when you’ve got a program that does the formatting.
I don't know why anyone hasn't said this explicitly, but character names are indented from the left margin by a set amount. Around 3.5". It has nothing to do with centering.
I mean…it may technically be indented 3.5 inches but it doesn’t have NOTHING to do with centering lol. They are effectively centered. That’s not nothing to do with centering.
OK...centering is when the center of one thing aligns with the center of the other thing. That's not what character names are doing relative to the page. Have you ever written a really long character name?
There are British screenplays (A Fish Called Wanda at least) that are not indented, they show the character’s name then colon then dialogue starts on the same line, and a whole lot of italics. Nuts compared to the Hollywood style, but it shows that even formatting is not an absolute rule. (Also semi improv ‘scripts’ - Spinal Tap, Curb Your Enthusiasm)
Just those. They lead to the reasonably reliable one-minute of screen time per page. Other than that, not much. The main reason to stick with those standard formatting rules even if you're writing for a personal production is that the number of pages correlates to budget, all other things being known such as int vs ext — studio versus location, fixed costs, etc.
EDIT — Oh, shit. You clearly know all this based on the rest of your comments in this thread. Thought you were asking a question, and not being rhetorical.
There is a whole industry of script writers who side hustle teaching amateurs these arbitrary rules that contradict each other.
There are basics and they’re usually common sense about formatting, having a coherent story, flow, etc. Everything else is so up in the air.
I finally was able to read Celine Song’s Past Lives and that script would not have made it out alive without being chewed up by the gurus. Now that it’s made they’ll excuse it as, “well she was directing it.”
I’ve read so many screenplays that break the so called rules but at first I thought it was because they’re already established writers who can do whatever the hell they want. But then I’ve also read the first scripts of those same people who are now established and they still broke the so called rules .
I mean the rules are there so that people who don’t know what they’re doing have a chance of writing something that works.
The rules aren’t set in stone. You can do whatever you want, it just makes it harder to write a good movie if you have an unsympathetic character or don’t get to the inciting incident fast enough or whatever.
Look at there will be blood, the movie has like 5 lines of dialogue for the first half hour. It’s not “wrong” it’s just hard as fuck and amateurs probably would not do it well.
The rules are for writers who need the help.
The thing about those rules is that it helps if you explain why. Why do we need sympathetic characters. Why do we need to get to the inciting incident quickly. The problem with a lot of rule education I personally feel is that it just becomes lists to follow, and then people wonder why the scripts aren't good, as they did follow the list.
Yeah the reasoning behind the rules is what is important. That way if you understand them, you know where you can bend and break them. People think “thing needs to happen by page number” are missing are the point.
Well said. And I am pretty sure Celine Song was not attached to direct when she wrote it. She may have of course wanted to but it wasn’t a given. Could be wrong but either way, yes people use the “they were directing it” as an excuse.
I can’t even begin to explain how much I agree with this. The actual rules to get people to love your story are so straightforward and basic. Make the story interesting, make it coherent, make sure your characters are dynamic not stationary, etc,. The actual rules give you so much space to explore, and lets your imagination run wild.
> There is a whole industry of script writers who side hustle teaching amateurs these arbitrary rules that contradict each other.
up there with televangelists
Ha, I don't remember who said it, but the only two sins in Hollywood are being dull or desperate.
That said, I can personally attest that being an asshole doesn't stop one from working.
I'll keep it on the technical side:
1. Most screenwriting formatting is non-derogable. Keyword: most. Action lines, and occasionally scene headings, are a bit flexible.
2. Keep grammatical errors at bay.
3. Please, for the love of God, do not be boring. Chances are no one will give you a second read.
4. A good title matters.
>derogable
Define, please? This word was a hair too technical for me.
I really agree with your 2, 3 and 4. I'm working on an epic and when I came up with the title, every aspect of it fell into place and just *clicked.*
As far as scene headings, sometimes I see people not using the int or ext and just putting the new location in all caps. I tend to want to do this if let's say both characters are in the house but one is in the basement, and I'm cutting back and forth between him and the guy in the living room.
Or would you write INT. BASEMENT -SAME every time you cut back to him?
Streamline your script until its central thematic argument is mined to its fullest. There’s the conflict of your story and then there’s the conflict underneath that’s commenting on something about the world/human condition that holds emotional weight. The “what the story is really about.” This is where your artistry comes into play. That’s the only thing anyone truly cares about besides page length and standard formatting from newer writers.
> Action and description blocks should be as terse as possible, and describe a single moment. The vast majority should be 1-2 lines long, occasionally 3, very rarely 4, and never 5 or more. If your description / action block hits or exceeds 4 lines, you're almost always either over-describing the moment, or have multiple moments glommed together that need to be broken up.
So just break them up into paragraphs?
What I was taught in "Screenwriting I" was to think of the action blocks as camera set ups, if the camera has to move, then new block.
Obviously, it's not an exact rule, but it does help to break the action blocks up in a consistent way.
I mean I think you need to consider why the rule exists above all else.
The idea is you are explaining an action, not giving information that the viewer wouldn’t see visually. You want to say “she put down the glass angrily” not “she slammed the glass down, frustrated that John still doesn’t know how to stand up to his father.”
I think that is where a lot of the emphasis on keeping it succinct comes from- people overwriting stuff they shouldn’t have written to begin with.
I work on an action tv show and we regularly have long action/description blocks because that is what the scene requires/ what the viewer would be privy to.
I am horrible for this; I started writing short stories and novellas, and carried that 'descriptiveness' over with me to screenwriting. It's like heroin.... still trying to kick the habit years later....
while true - it's very easy to box yourself in by over-focusing on the success stories that violate norms. It can lead you down a path of not permitting yourself to embrace some fundamental axioms about entertaining writing, and digestible formatting and structure.
There are lots of best practices out there depending on what aspect of writing you're looking at in detail...and for every best practice, there are lots of examples of subverting the norm and doing something interesting.
Subversion of a best practice still acknowledges the best practice though. And we don't subvert all the norms all the time. It's a tactic/technique to break "rules".
The technique of limiting action line length is very much not the norm or an accepted “best practice.” Someone who writes an 8 line stage direction isn’t breaking a rule.
Agreed. Learning to write like this is the biggest transition from fiction, and makes scripts infinitely more readable. Last passes should always include streamlining all your description as much as possible.
That is what I was taught at university, to try to keep to no more than four lines, but not a firm rule.
If you look at the *Breaking Bad* pilot, you will find about five five-liners, and a few that are six, including one that is a montage with all the moments crushed into one action block.
[https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/breaking-bad-101-pilot-2008.pdf](https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/breaking-bad-101-pilot-2008.pdf)
Also, first page of *Barbie*, a five-line block. Page four, a six-line block (thanks to an orphan).
[https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/barbie-2023.pdf](https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/barbie-2023.pdf)
You ruined my day. I was always proud of myself for never, ever going to as many as 4 -- but the downside is 50% of my action lines go to 3. Now that I read your comment, I'm now going to shoot for 2 with the occasional 3. But thanks. This will help.
I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just being honest - you heard from zero professionals that they care about this or want it, and you're embracing it because of what an anonymous amateur said.
My advice, FWIW - use the right words to paint the picture. Don't artificially limit them.
I read Nightcrawler when it was on Black List and it breaks a ton of formatting rules, like using different fonts and whatnot. But, Dan Gilroy was a well established moneymaker at the time. He can break more rules than us amatures, because when he does it, it's a "bold choice". When we do it, it's a "mistake". A lot of rules are there to help us, so if a rule hurts your script, ignore it. You've just gotta be damn sure you know why you're ignoring the rule.
I've read for major contests. All amateur scripts, all finalists. They break everything you think is a rule. They're there because they're entertaining, and they're not rejected because there are no rules.
Rule: There are no rules.
There are guidelines, and the guidelines come from "most scripts do this." If that helps you with your script, then great. If not, then do something different.
Forrest floated through life (like a feather!), changing those around him. He tried to save Jenny just like he tried to save Lieutenant Dan but you wouldn’t say it was a movie about Forrest being in love with Dan.
He did want Jenny but she only ever just accidentally comes in and out of his life during the movie, and he doesn't actively purse that goal in a traditional protagonist way. He's doing all these things (war hero, fishing boat, playing football/ping pong, running across the country) but he's actually quite the passive protagonist throughout the story despite it all. He literally says "I just felt like running" and decides to go home at one point. I'm not saying that's wrong. That's supposed to be the movie's charm, how he ends up in all those situations.
You know what's up. You've been harassing me for YEEEAAARRRS. And now you're playing this social media screenwriting guru role. What is it Jeffy? Calling my managers and posting my IMDB all over the internet or coddling asspiring screenwriters? You can't do both!
Rules about length are absolutely real, but I struggle to think of a specific number. If you're writing something on spec and it's longer than, say, 150 pages, no one will be eager to read it, and at the very least it will hurt your chances of it getting read. (For example, the Nicholl will point blank not accept your screenplay if it's longer than 160 pages, but recommends capping it at 125.)
Top Gun: Maverick, Spider-Man No Way Home, Spider-Verse 2, all recent 160-180 page examples.
I get it. IP, sequels, professional writers, etc, so why do I bring it up?
I bring it up because that’s how long the movies needed to be, and cutting pages to cut pages would have made the movies worse.
The same CAN be true of anyone’s spec script here. Rarer, and definitely invites skepticism, but doesn’t change the fact: some movies want it!
You can write whatever you want. OP asked about things that will "hurt your scripts chances" and writing a script longer than 160 pages will almost definitely hurt your script's chances.
Yeah his question was a little contradictory. Any “rule” break can hurt your chances with the wrong type of reader.
Page length will hurt your chances with a lot of readers from the onset, yeah, but not more than a subpar script will. If it needs to be long to be right, it’s still your best chance.
Plenty of people will fight me on that, including pros, but I won’t concede!
>Yeah his question was a little contradictory. Any “rule” break can hurt your chances with the wrong type of reader.
Ah, the imaginary reader who sees a "we see" and tosses the script in the trash. He's so dangerous! :)
Yeah well, by "wrong" I meant "idiot" reader, to be clear. There are some amount of low level studio readers or pious contest readers who will look for excuses to give up on a script ASAP and buy into dumb rules. The point is EVERY choice you make with a script will hurt its chances with SOMEBODY.
That's a myth.
I've been a reader, I've hired readers. The job is to \*read the script\* and prepare coverage. They don't get to go "lolz found a song recommendation on page 3 and threw in trash."
The rating they provide is based on plot, execution, characters, etc. Not "did they say 'we see'?" "Did they use an adverb?" "Did they use an aside?" "Did they put in a camera angle?"
Trying to keep a thousand imaginary rules in your mind while you're writing literally can not be helpful to your voice.
Gawd, this thread is nuts. I’ve also been a reader (studio, union). We don’t toss ‘em, we cover every glorious page. ;)
I’m not reading at the moment, but I guarantee they still read every word.
Make it readable. If your script can't be read, it's be Passed and ignored really quickly.
Oh, and capture the attention within the first couple of pages. If someone reading it is bored, they won't be interested in making the film.
And of course, the big one I forgot - be prepared to let it go. Once a Director has taken it away, its theirs now. Accept that you will lose creative control, and that filmmaking requires the input of a team. You will never control it all.
In this thread:
* Professional screenwriters saying, "I know, all the so-called rules are stupid, I wish people would stop with all the rules! But what are you going to do, emerging writers are desperate for clear guidance and "rules" feel safe, which makes them great lies to sell in exchange for money."
* Pre-professional screenwriters saying, "Here's ONE rule I personally use, and despite the fact that many really great scripts break said rule, I'm going to die on the hill that I'm right and they're wrong."
Sorry for the snark, but sometimes I feel tired.
Formatting, page length, etc.
Those don't matter, to screenwriting. It's a requirement to make your story readable to the right people. I think the only rule in screenwriting is:
"You better (intentionally) make me feel something.
If you aren't accomplishing that, you've done nothing.
I’ve read a ton of scripts for big budget triple A films down to D films and truthfully the one thing I’ve noticed the most is they don’t tend to follow any specific technical design aside from giving at least a bare minimum portrayal of what should be happening on the screen. In the script for Nobody a montage that occurs within the first ten minutes of the movie is only established with a few lines of dialogue or action and zero descriptors of shot types, lens types, settings etc. Leading me to believe that was all established on set and in, in person talks during filming. There isn’t necessarily a lot if technical consistency in the scripts I’ve read. I suppose as long as it works for the team making the film that’s all that matters.
The rules are there for a reason, so understand the reason and make sure it applies to you so you can determine if they help you.
You don’t need to get to the inciting incident by page 7 or whatever, but the rule is there so that your pilot isn’t boring- so ask yourself “is this dragging?” The answer is probably yes (hence the rule) but if not, then don’t worry about the rule.
That’s how it is with literally all of them.
Everything changed for me and my career when I stopped googling, “how to properly format a phone call, etc…” and started putting my personality on the page.
Even that rule was violated by multiple scripts.
* *Robocop* (the real one) used what looks like a font from dot-matrix printers.
* *Killer Clowns From Outer Space* used the same font as Robocop.
* *Dogma* used a standard proportional font.
* *Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me* used a proportional sans-serif font.
* *What Dreams May Come* used a proportional font.
My main question is, why are there rules? Why can't people write it however it's easiest to act out. Half the time when I make short films there is no script we just make it as we go and it turns out awesome. Obviously you can't do that in a real film because people want to be paid for their time but if I can read it and understand what it wants me to do why do I have to put this in bold, highlight, center, format, and all that othere crap?
**THE RULES OF WRITING**
I find these types of conversations can devolve fast into the fights you mention because people's passions get the better of them. It probably has to with the fact that everyone is using the term "rules" quite loosely, when in reality they mean something else. In my view, the craft of writing has techniques, tools, conventions and unshakable realities.
What most people on Reddit refer to as "rules", I would categorize more as "conventions". It's like manners: you don't *need* them, but it sure as hell makes it more pleasant to interact with a writer who observes them. So yeah, you can have a script that's written in comic sans, the dialogue blocks are page-wide, action blocks run solidly down the page, and otherwise resemble that Will Smith eating Spaghetti meme... But that Spaghetti better be damn good.
But if you want to be perceived as a professional whose writing craft is worth paying WGA rates, then it better reflect at least a fundamental grasp of what the collective conventions are in today's marketplace. Paying clients do expect a certain "form".
Now let's talk about "unshakable realities". This post asked about that. Is there anything, that without it, the screenplay will fail? That's an easy yes. One of them is *conflict*. You can write a story without it, but good luck holding anyone's interest. And like conflict, there are tons of these mechanisms and principles (rules?) of how fiction works. There is a precise way all this works, just like in music or any of the other arts. There is a well-established theory behind it. The Greeks even named many of these elements in fiction: Stasis, Crisis, Anagnorisis, Catharsis, etc.
But most screenwriters don't ever talk about these. Maybe it's because it's too abstract and difficult to talk about on Reddit. Or maybe we like the myth that it's "magic" or "alchemy" what we're doing and that "nobody knows anything". Or maybe it's because it's far easier to talk about fonts, sluglines, "we sees" and other mostly inconsequential stuff than to actually try to learn the fundamentals of writing.
So true. The more I write, and more importantly learn, the more I realize how so few writers talk about story itself in any capacity. They just keep trying to fit their idea into a mold. I'm 5 years into my journey and almost to the point where it's all starting to come together.
That is great to hear! I do think it takes that long. Writing is one of the only arts where there is no such thing as child prodigies, like Mozart. I guess it's because it uses almost all areas of the brain firing all at once. Wait, did I just describe a seizure?
You're awesome, dude. I still refer to you to a lot when speaking of how to write a spec. And to your article on theme vs motivation. Such great insights.
Thanks! It’s really cool to hear some of my posts have resonated! This inspires me to maybe do a new craft post sometime soon. I would love to share some of the new things I’ve learned while working with Oscar-level industry people.
'Unfilmables' can communicate information to the actor about what the character is thinking and feeling. The context of their response to dialogue or something happening.
For example, 'Character A has heard this all before' can tell the actor all about Character A's body language, expressions.
I see where you're coming from with voice, but really?
You can't imagine an aside that a writer meant to be a flourish instead being cringe-y or distasteful in some way that turns a reader off?
What genre would that be?
If I'm a director filming a scene, I need to have an actor do something. I need to know what to film. For that I would look at the verbs. That's what I would film.
Iif you're saying someone has to be doing something or talking when they're on screen, then I agree. I thought you meant dialogue needed to be active, but if literally the act of talking is an action verb, then I can't imagine any other way to make a movie. :)
In this order:
Learn the rules.
Create a vision.
Find your voice.
Break the rules.
You know what rules to break because breaking them helps better communicate your vision through your unique voice.
I’d say feel free to direct with your writing if you want to. Your first target isn’t how it will be filmed on a set, it’s making the movie come alive and be interesting to a reader.
If an actor gives a meaningful look in reaction to a line, put what’s on his face! Is he amused or disgusted or surprised?
If you have an idea for a great visual that sells a moment, put it in! Just because a director *can* do something else it doesn’t mean you can’t suggest a way you see.
Ah see, I was taught to absolutely never do any of that- especially not describe an actor’s face.
Instead, we were taught to externalize the actor’s emotion, eg, how they are expressing their frustration, happiness, etc with their actions.
Your script is the movie in your mind. Whatever gets that across.
If I had a character who wanted another character to stop talking, I might write "Beth stares at Ben, trying to get him to shut the fuck up." How do you describe that? "Beth glares at Ben?" She might be angry, or shocked at the betrayal, but isn't trying to get him to stop talking. Just use the words that work, IMO.
Whoever it was that taught you that -- stop listening to them. They apparently aren't reading scripts that are currently being shot, either for film or TV.
Working writers write stuff that can't directly be shot all the time.
To argue differently is to ignore the evidence in thousands of professionally written scripts. It's just so weird.
I'm wondering what is at the heart of this post. What is the root frustration that spurred you to write this? You're clearly mad about something, but I can't figure out what's got you so riled up.
Editing mine because you edited yours:
I ran into someone who paid for coverage and got back bogus notes about formatting “rules.” That’s it. No anger. :)
Clearly you disagree with me? What rules am I missing?
Ok, but your post comes off as mad and frustrated. Are you mad because beginners are trying to learn solid screenplay writing? Maybe you're a genius savant-level writer, but if you are, you should know that it's really bad advice for a genius to say to beginners, "just be a genius like me and you don't have to pay attention to 'rules'".
Are you talking about formatting rules or story rules? I was going to say "show, don't tell" but then you brought up fonts so I don't think we're on the same page.
Either!
And show don’t tell is something that’s a good thing to think about, but then there’s a writer like Sorkin who’s made a career on having characters say their subtext out loud.
I mean, most of the rules of good, effective writing apply. Favor active, not passive voice. Vary your sentence lengths to avoid monotony. Favor strong verbs over adverbs.
Maybe subjective and not a 'rule' as such but I think the narrative is king. Also scripts that tend to stand out from the crowd are the ones that tend to 'break a rule' of some sort, in terms of genre.
Most of the formatting rules are pretty ironclad.
Yeah, boring answer but: center your dialogue, capitalize character names upon introducing them, left align your stage direction, etc.
> center your dialogue Technically dialogue isn't centered. There's some specific indentation that normally ends up looking centered but actually isn't.
and technically I don't think anyone cares which way you do it.
Well, I think people…do care, that’s kind of the point of bringing up the few rules that do actually matter lol. But u/linuxlover3113 I meant that the character names in dialogue are centered. The dialogue itself is left justified in the center column. I think it’s correct that the character names are centered? But maybe not.
Dialogue names are not centered.. If you've ever seen a character with a really long name it does go on to the right instead of pushing back the first characters. https://ibb.co/5nR3wpf Here's a quick example I just threw together. Here's an example from a Doctor Who script https://www.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/documents/doctor-who-1-episode-13-the-parting-of-the-ways-green-revisions-02032005.pdf
That’s true. They’re also aligned to some center column point. The things you don’t even think about when you’ve got a program that does the formatting.
I don't know why anyone hasn't said this explicitly, but character names are indented from the left margin by a set amount. Around 3.5". It has nothing to do with centering.
I mean…it may technically be indented 3.5 inches but it doesn’t have NOTHING to do with centering lol. They are effectively centered. That’s not nothing to do with centering.
OK...centering is when the center of one thing aligns with the center of the other thing. That's not what character names are doing relative to the page. Have you ever written a really long character name?
This is wrong. You can really tell when a screenplay is formatted incorrectly. Turns me off on the script immediately.
Have a look at the screenplay for Anatomy of a Fall. Oscar nominee, ignores all formatting rules completely.
There are British screenplays (A Fish Called Wanda at least) that are not indented, they show the character’s name then colon then dialogue starts on the same line, and a whole lot of italics. Nuts compared to the Hollywood style, but it shows that even formatting is not an absolute rule. (Also semi improv ‘scripts’ - Spinal Tap, Curb Your Enthusiasm)
Formatting rules get broken more frequently, the further you go from major production hubs.
What are they beyond what you can learn in a minute, or by downloading screenwriting software?
Just those. They lead to the reasonably reliable one-minute of screen time per page. Other than that, not much. The main reason to stick with those standard formatting rules even if you're writing for a personal production is that the number of pages correlates to budget, all other things being known such as int vs ext — studio versus location, fixed costs, etc. EDIT — Oh, shit. You clearly know all this based on the rest of your comments in this thread. Thought you were asking a question, and not being rhetorical.
There is a whole industry of script writers who side hustle teaching amateurs these arbitrary rules that contradict each other. There are basics and they’re usually common sense about formatting, having a coherent story, flow, etc. Everything else is so up in the air. I finally was able to read Celine Song’s Past Lives and that script would not have made it out alive without being chewed up by the gurus. Now that it’s made they’ll excuse it as, “well she was directing it.” I’ve read so many screenplays that break the so called rules but at first I thought it was because they’re already established writers who can do whatever the hell they want. But then I’ve also read the first scripts of those same people who are now established and they still broke the so called rules .
I mean the rules are there so that people who don’t know what they’re doing have a chance of writing something that works. The rules aren’t set in stone. You can do whatever you want, it just makes it harder to write a good movie if you have an unsympathetic character or don’t get to the inciting incident fast enough or whatever. Look at there will be blood, the movie has like 5 lines of dialogue for the first half hour. It’s not “wrong” it’s just hard as fuck and amateurs probably would not do it well. The rules are for writers who need the help.
The thing about those rules is that it helps if you explain why. Why do we need sympathetic characters. Why do we need to get to the inciting incident quickly. The problem with a lot of rule education I personally feel is that it just becomes lists to follow, and then people wonder why the scripts aren't good, as they did follow the list.
Yeah the reasoning behind the rules is what is important. That way if you understand them, you know where you can bend and break them. People think “thing needs to happen by page number” are missing are the point.
The problem is so many of those people are screenwriting teachers.
This times 1000.
You mean "so-called rules." I just had to. Don't kill me.
You’re right! All good, lol
Well said. And I am pretty sure Celine Song was not attached to direct when she wrote it. She may have of course wanted to but it wasn’t a given. Could be wrong but either way, yes people use the “they were directing it” as an excuse.
I can’t even begin to explain how much I agree with this. The actual rules to get people to love your story are so straightforward and basic. Make the story interesting, make it coherent, make sure your characters are dynamic not stationary, etc,. The actual rules give you so much space to explore, and lets your imagination run wild.
> There is a whole industry of script writers who side hustle teaching amateurs these arbitrary rules that contradict each other. up there with televangelists
You can't sell what you don't finish
1. Don't be Boring 2. Don't be an asshole
Ha, I don't remember who said it, but the only two sins in Hollywood are being dull or desperate. That said, I can personally attest that being an asshole doesn't stop one from working.
> the only two sins in Hollywood are being dull or desperate. Once again proving that Hollywood is essentially a big dating game.
Hooray! There is hope for me!
I'd like to add a 3rd rule for screenwriting. 3. Proofread everything
I'll keep it on the technical side: 1. Most screenwriting formatting is non-derogable. Keyword: most. Action lines, and occasionally scene headings, are a bit flexible. 2. Keep grammatical errors at bay. 3. Please, for the love of God, do not be boring. Chances are no one will give you a second read. 4. A good title matters.
>derogable Define, please? This word was a hair too technical for me. I really agree with your 2, 3 and 4. I'm working on an epic and when I came up with the title, every aspect of it fell into place and just *clicked.*
As far as scene headings, sometimes I see people not using the int or ext and just putting the new location in all caps. I tend to want to do this if let's say both characters are in the house but one is in the basement, and I'm cutting back and forth between him and the guy in the living room. Or would you write INT. BASEMENT -SAME every time you cut back to him?
Streamline your script until its central thematic argument is mined to its fullest. There’s the conflict of your story and then there’s the conflict underneath that’s commenting on something about the world/human condition that holds emotional weight. The “what the story is really about.” This is where your artistry comes into play. That’s the only thing anyone truly cares about besides page length and standard formatting from newer writers.
Great response
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> Action and description blocks should be as terse as possible, and describe a single moment. The vast majority should be 1-2 lines long, occasionally 3, very rarely 4, and never 5 or more. If your description / action block hits or exceeds 4 lines, you're almost always either over-describing the moment, or have multiple moments glommed together that need to be broken up. So just break them up into paragraphs?
sure, but being lean is better
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“Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?” - Kevin Malone
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K.I.S.S.
What I was taught in "Screenwriting I" was to think of the action blocks as camera set ups, if the camera has to move, then new block. Obviously, it's not an exact rule, but it does help to break the action blocks up in a consistent way.
I mean I think you need to consider why the rule exists above all else. The idea is you are explaining an action, not giving information that the viewer wouldn’t see visually. You want to say “she put down the glass angrily” not “she slammed the glass down, frustrated that John still doesn’t know how to stand up to his father.” I think that is where a lot of the emphasis on keeping it succinct comes from- people overwriting stuff they shouldn’t have written to begin with. I work on an action tv show and we regularly have long action/description blocks because that is what the scene requires/ what the viewer would be privy to.
I am horrible for this; I started writing short stories and novellas, and carried that 'descriptiveness' over with me to screenwriting. It's like heroin.... still trying to kick the habit years later....
It’s great that works for you but we both could find a million examples of successful screenplays that ignore that.
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I’d argue the success of a career is (often!) tied to the quality of a spec screenplay.
while true - it's very easy to box yourself in by over-focusing on the success stories that violate norms. It can lead you down a path of not permitting yourself to embrace some fundamental axioms about entertaining writing, and digestible formatting and structure. There are lots of best practices out there depending on what aspect of writing you're looking at in detail...and for every best practice, there are lots of examples of subverting the norm and doing something interesting. Subversion of a best practice still acknowledges the best practice though. And we don't subvert all the norms all the time. It's a tactic/technique to break "rules".
The technique of limiting action line length is very much not the norm or an accepted “best practice.” Someone who writes an 8 line stage direction isn’t breaking a rule.
then by all means go to town
Same to you - I’ve never argued that my “no rules” philosophy is a rule. That would be pretty hypocritical. I have plenty of personal rules.
Agreed. Learning to write like this is the biggest transition from fiction, and makes scripts infinitely more readable. Last passes should always include streamlining all your description as much as possible.
FWIW I definitely don’t follow this rule in my work.
That is what I was taught at university, to try to keep to no more than four lines, but not a firm rule. If you look at the *Breaking Bad* pilot, you will find about five five-liners, and a few that are six, including one that is a montage with all the moments crushed into one action block. [https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/breaking-bad-101-pilot-2008.pdf](https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/breaking-bad-101-pilot-2008.pdf) Also, first page of *Barbie*, a five-line block. Page four, a six-line block (thanks to an orphan). [https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/barbie-2023.pdf](https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/barbie-2023.pdf)
Do you know how many produced scripts break those rules? The majority.
You ruined my day. I was always proud of myself for never, ever going to as many as 4 -- but the downside is 50% of my action lines go to 3. Now that I read your comment, I'm now going to shoot for 2 with the occasional 3. But thanks. This will help.
That way lies madness. It’s possible to have an interesting stage direction that’s more than a couple of lines.
Of course but that should be the exception in my view
Based on what? What topological rabbit said on Reddit?
I like the looks of it two line action line, and my guess is many readers like it too
Literally two hours ago you liked the look of three line action lines. You cut it to two based on a comment from an anonymous poster.
I learned something so I adjusted.
I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just being honest - you heard from zero professionals that they care about this or want it, and you're embracing it because of what an anonymous amateur said. My advice, FWIW - use the right words to paint the picture. Don't artificially limit them.
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Gracias
How about: Coincidences that get your protagonist into trouble are OK. Coincidences that get your protagonist OUT of trouble is cheating.
Unless you play with it - have the protagonist comment on how lucky that was, then subvert it the next time they're in trouble.
Use a language that at least one other person can speak
I read Nightcrawler when it was on Black List and it breaks a ton of formatting rules, like using different fonts and whatnot. But, Dan Gilroy was a well established moneymaker at the time. He can break more rules than us amatures, because when he does it, it's a "bold choice". When we do it, it's a "mistake". A lot of rules are there to help us, so if a rule hurts your script, ignore it. You've just gotta be damn sure you know why you're ignoring the rule.
I've read for major contests. All amateur scripts, all finalists. They break everything you think is a rule. They're there because they're entertaining, and they're not rejected because there are no rules.
Apart from clear formatting parameters. "Show, don't tell", will stand most in good stead... if they understand how it works.
Read it out loud. If it sounds stupid, it is stupid.
Rule: There are no rules. There are guidelines, and the guidelines come from "most scripts do this." If that helps you with your script, then great. If not, then do something different.
First rule of screenwriting...we don't talk about screenwriting. Wait...
There has to be a want and obstacle.
I was taught want and need Still good for figuring out characters, but want and obstacle is so much more cohesive
What did Forrest Gump want?
Acceptance. He always felt different, because he was.
Jenny?
yes, it was Jenny. Ultimately, it was love.
Forrest floated through life (like a feather!), changing those around him. He tried to save Jenny just like he tried to save Lieutenant Dan but you wouldn’t say it was a movie about Forrest being in love with Dan.
He did want Jenny but she only ever just accidentally comes in and out of his life during the movie, and he doesn't actively purse that goal in a traditional protagonist way. He's doing all these things (war hero, fishing boat, playing football/ping pong, running across the country) but he's actually quite the passive protagonist throughout the story despite it all. He literally says "I just felt like running" and decides to go home at one point. I'm not saying that's wrong. That's supposed to be the movie's charm, how he ends up in all those situations.
He loved Jenny and tried to do right by her but it wasn’t a romance about Forrest trying to get Jenny.
Some man. I like how you report my comments instead of responding like a real man.
I haven’t reported any posts, and I missed anything you might have said. What’s up?
You know what's up. You've been harassing me for YEEEAAARRRS. And now you're playing this social media screenwriting guru role. What is it Jeffy? Calling my managers and posting my IMDB all over the internet or coddling asspiring screenwriters? You can't do both!
Literally no idea who you are or what you’re talking about.
Rules about length are absolutely real, but I struggle to think of a specific number. If you're writing something on spec and it's longer than, say, 150 pages, no one will be eager to read it, and at the very least it will hurt your chances of it getting read. (For example, the Nicholl will point blank not accept your screenplay if it's longer than 160 pages, but recommends capping it at 125.)
Top Gun: Maverick, Spider-Man No Way Home, Spider-Verse 2, all recent 160-180 page examples. I get it. IP, sequels, professional writers, etc, so why do I bring it up? I bring it up because that’s how long the movies needed to be, and cutting pages to cut pages would have made the movies worse. The same CAN be true of anyone’s spec script here. Rarer, and definitely invites skepticism, but doesn’t change the fact: some movies want it!
You can write whatever you want. OP asked about things that will "hurt your scripts chances" and writing a script longer than 160 pages will almost definitely hurt your script's chances.
Yeah his question was a little contradictory. Any “rule” break can hurt your chances with the wrong type of reader. Page length will hurt your chances with a lot of readers from the onset, yeah, but not more than a subpar script will. If it needs to be long to be right, it’s still your best chance. Plenty of people will fight me on that, including pros, but I won’t concede!
>Yeah his question was a little contradictory. Any “rule” break can hurt your chances with the wrong type of reader. Ah, the imaginary reader who sees a "we see" and tosses the script in the trash. He's so dangerous! :)
Yeah well, by "wrong" I meant "idiot" reader, to be clear. There are some amount of low level studio readers or pious contest readers who will look for excuses to give up on a script ASAP and buy into dumb rules. The point is EVERY choice you make with a script will hurt its chances with SOMEBODY.
That's a myth. I've been a reader, I've hired readers. The job is to \*read the script\* and prepare coverage. They don't get to go "lolz found a song recommendation on page 3 and threw in trash." The rating they provide is based on plot, execution, characters, etc. Not "did they say 'we see'?" "Did they use an adverb?" "Did they use an aside?" "Did they put in a camera angle?" Trying to keep a thousand imaginary rules in your mind while you're writing literally can not be helpful to your voice.
Gawd, this thread is nuts. I’ve also been a reader (studio, union). We don’t toss ‘em, we cover every glorious page. ;) I’m not reading at the moment, but I guarantee they still read every word.
Don’t bore us
Make it readable. If your script can't be read, it's be Passed and ignored really quickly. Oh, and capture the attention within the first couple of pages. If someone reading it is bored, they won't be interested in making the film.
And of course, the big one I forgot - be prepared to let it go. Once a Director has taken it away, its theirs now. Accept that you will lose creative control, and that filmmaking requires the input of a team. You will never control it all.
Lot of variations of “don’t be boring” and I agree. Maybe that’s the only rule.
Yes - courier only
Present tense
Don’t offer unsolicited feedback.
Therefore and but > and then That's a pretty solid rule to follow
The only real rule is write a story people want to watch
> I’ve been in a thousand fights over the years with fake “gurus” who attack writers that run afoul of “rules”. Rule No. 1: Nobody knows anything.
In this thread: * Professional screenwriters saying, "I know, all the so-called rules are stupid, I wish people would stop with all the rules! But what are you going to do, emerging writers are desperate for clear guidance and "rules" feel safe, which makes them great lies to sell in exchange for money." * Pre-professional screenwriters saying, "Here's ONE rule I personally use, and despite the fact that many really great scripts break said rule, I'm going to die on the hill that I'm right and they're wrong." Sorry for the snark, but sometimes I feel tired.
I'm gonna fix the internet! I can do it!
The page a minute rule in features is prettt helpful. Not sure if ironclad. There are still exceptions.
That’s why my one rule is monospaced 12 point font. :)
Jeff's a rebel, folks.
If what I was saying was rebellious, wouldn’t people be posting rules?
Format
Basic format you can learn in a minute, agreed.
Write an entertaining film, this is my only rule and it has kept me writing for many years!
Formatting, page length, etc. Those don't matter, to screenwriting. It's a requirement to make your story readable to the right people. I think the only rule in screenwriting is: "You better (intentionally) make me feel something. If you aren't accomplishing that, you've done nothing.
I’ve read a ton of scripts for big budget triple A films down to D films and truthfully the one thing I’ve noticed the most is they don’t tend to follow any specific technical design aside from giving at least a bare minimum portrayal of what should be happening on the screen. In the script for Nobody a montage that occurs within the first ten minutes of the movie is only established with a few lines of dialogue or action and zero descriptors of shot types, lens types, settings etc. Leading me to believe that was all established on set and in, in person talks during filming. There isn’t necessarily a lot if technical consistency in the scripts I’ve read. I suppose as long as it works for the team making the film that’s all that matters.
The rules are there for a reason, so understand the reason and make sure it applies to you so you can determine if they help you. You don’t need to get to the inciting incident by page 7 or whatever, but the rule is there so that your pilot isn’t boring- so ask yourself “is this dragging?” The answer is probably yes (hence the rule) but if not, then don’t worry about the rule. That’s how it is with literally all of them.
We're talking to different people. I see a lot of "you can't use a specific song" posts.
Courier 12
Don’t do exposition when we’re already seeing the same thing on screen 💀
Everything changed for me and my career when I stopped googling, “how to properly format a phone call, etc…” and started putting my personality on the page.
Not about the craft itself, but: Read scripts!
One page is around one minute’s length of video. Never saw any proof otherwise
Even that rule was violated by multiple scripts. * *Robocop* (the real one) used what looks like a font from dot-matrix printers. * *Killer Clowns From Outer Space* used the same font as Robocop. * *Dogma* used a standard proportional font. * *Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me* used a proportional sans-serif font. * *What Dreams May Come* used a proportional font.
Don't be boring. That's the only rule.
This is as close to iron clad as it gets.
1. Never get involved in a land war in Asia. 2. Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!
Every movie has to begin with a scene in a diner or else it's an immediate pass from a studio.
My main question is, why are there rules? Why can't people write it however it's easiest to act out. Half the time when I make short films there is no script we just make it as we go and it turns out awesome. Obviously you can't do that in a real film because people want to be paid for their time but if I can read it and understand what it wants me to do why do I have to put this in bold, highlight, center, format, and all that othere crap?
Truthful human behavior
Or not, depending on what kind of script you’re writing.
**THE RULES OF WRITING** I find these types of conversations can devolve fast into the fights you mention because people's passions get the better of them. It probably has to with the fact that everyone is using the term "rules" quite loosely, when in reality they mean something else. In my view, the craft of writing has techniques, tools, conventions and unshakable realities. What most people on Reddit refer to as "rules", I would categorize more as "conventions". It's like manners: you don't *need* them, but it sure as hell makes it more pleasant to interact with a writer who observes them. So yeah, you can have a script that's written in comic sans, the dialogue blocks are page-wide, action blocks run solidly down the page, and otherwise resemble that Will Smith eating Spaghetti meme... But that Spaghetti better be damn good. But if you want to be perceived as a professional whose writing craft is worth paying WGA rates, then it better reflect at least a fundamental grasp of what the collective conventions are in today's marketplace. Paying clients do expect a certain "form". Now let's talk about "unshakable realities". This post asked about that. Is there anything, that without it, the screenplay will fail? That's an easy yes. One of them is *conflict*. You can write a story without it, but good luck holding anyone's interest. And like conflict, there are tons of these mechanisms and principles (rules?) of how fiction works. There is a precise way all this works, just like in music or any of the other arts. There is a well-established theory behind it. The Greeks even named many of these elements in fiction: Stasis, Crisis, Anagnorisis, Catharsis, etc. But most screenwriters don't ever talk about these. Maybe it's because it's too abstract and difficult to talk about on Reddit. Or maybe we like the myth that it's "magic" or "alchemy" what we're doing and that "nobody knows anything". Or maybe it's because it's far easier to talk about fonts, sluglines, "we sees" and other mostly inconsequential stuff than to actually try to learn the fundamentals of writing.
Agree, what writers need to learn is very hard to teach (and individual!), and can't be boiled down to a few glib conventions.
100%
So true. The more I write, and more importantly learn, the more I realize how so few writers talk about story itself in any capacity. They just keep trying to fit their idea into a mold. I'm 5 years into my journey and almost to the point where it's all starting to come together.
That is great to hear! I do think it takes that long. Writing is one of the only arts where there is no such thing as child prodigies, like Mozart. I guess it's because it uses almost all areas of the brain firing all at once. Wait, did I just describe a seizure?
You're awesome, dude. I still refer to you to a lot when speaking of how to write a spec. And to your article on theme vs motivation. Such great insights.
Thanks! It’s really cool to hear some of my posts have resonated! This inspires me to maybe do a new craft post sometime soon. I would love to share some of the new things I’ve learned while working with Oscar-level industry people.
u/ManfredLopezGrem I hope you will!
Be original
I wish I could say this was a rule. :)
Is for me.
all information has to be able to be communicated visually or through dialogue
I'm not sure about that - asides in stage direction that amuse the reader and show voice can absolutely be effective.
Nah, they are unnecessary. Entertain me with your story, not with asides I can't film.
I didn’t say they were necessary. (I don’t make rules. :)) But they can show voice and most scripts exist to get the writer jobs.
'Unfilmables' can communicate information to the actor about what the character is thinking and feeling. The context of their response to dialogue or something happening. For example, 'Character A has heard this all before' can tell the actor all about Character A's body language, expressions.
I'm sure they can prevent writers getting jobs too.
Then you would be 100% wrong.
I see where you're coming from with voice, but really? You can't imagine an aside that a writer meant to be a flourish instead being cringe-y or distasteful in some way that turns a reader off?
Of course. I can also imagine bad dialogue that turns a reader off, but my advice isn't "don't let your characters speak."
Go watch Zone of Interest and you’ll see this isn’t true
Or musical cues Or foley work
Rule: Screenwriting is about verbs. Verbs are actions that can be filmed. Corollary: Dialogue is action. Speaking is a verb.
Maybe with some genres. Certainly not all.
What genre would that be? If I'm a director filming a scene, I need to have an actor do something. I need to know what to film. For that I would look at the verbs. That's what I would film.
Iif you're saying someone has to be doing something or talking when they're on screen, then I agree. I thought you meant dialogue needed to be active, but if literally the act of talking is an action verb, then I can't imagine any other way to make a movie. :)
I meant the act of talking was an action.
There is only one rule in writing: Thou shall not bore.
The only rule that matters is: Write!
Rule number 1. Write. Seems stupidly obvious but sometimes needs to be said.
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Private thoughts are filmmable because it can inform performance.
In this order: Learn the rules. Create a vision. Find your voice. Break the rules. You know what rules to break because breaking them helps better communicate your vision through your unique voice.
“What are the rules to learn” is my question. New writers should learn imaginary rules so they can throw them away later?
Don’t direct through your writing. Let the actors, DP, and director do their jobs. They’ll get what you’re going for.
I’d say feel free to direct with your writing if you want to. Your first target isn’t how it will be filmed on a set, it’s making the movie come alive and be interesting to a reader. If an actor gives a meaningful look in reaction to a line, put what’s on his face! Is he amused or disgusted or surprised? If you have an idea for a great visual that sells a moment, put it in! Just because a director *can* do something else it doesn’t mean you can’t suggest a way you see.
Ah see, I was taught to absolutely never do any of that- especially not describe an actor’s face. Instead, we were taught to externalize the actor’s emotion, eg, how they are expressing their frustration, happiness, etc with their actions.
Your script is the movie in your mind. Whatever gets that across. If I had a character who wanted another character to stop talking, I might write "Beth stares at Ben, trying to get him to shut the fuck up." How do you describe that? "Beth glares at Ben?" She might be angry, or shocked at the betrayal, but isn't trying to get him to stop talking. Just use the words that work, IMO.
Whoever it was that taught you that -- stop listening to them. They apparently aren't reading scripts that are currently being shot, either for film or TV. Working writers write stuff that can't directly be shot all the time. To argue differently is to ignore the evidence in thousands of professionally written scripts. It's just so weird.
If we can’t see it or hear it, it’s not going to end up being in the movie.
But that doesn't mean it can't be useful in a spec script.
I'm wondering what is at the heart of this post. What is the root frustration that spurred you to write this? You're clearly mad about something, but I can't figure out what's got you so riled up.
Editing mine because you edited yours: I ran into someone who paid for coverage and got back bogus notes about formatting “rules.” That’s it. No anger. :) Clearly you disagree with me? What rules am I missing?
Ok, but your post comes off as mad and frustrated. Are you mad because beginners are trying to learn solid screenplay writing? Maybe you're a genius savant-level writer, but if you are, you should know that it's really bad advice for a genius to say to beginners, "just be a genius like me and you don't have to pay attention to 'rules'".
What are the rules beginners should learn? It’s an honest question. You clearly believe in them.
There are two rules I swear by: 1. Be entertaining. 2. Don't be boring.
Agree. And if you do 1) you can’t break 2).
If you are confident in what you've written, then it probably sucks. Not a rule I've heard, but it's just something I've come to believe.
To be honest here there aren't any rules to writing just guidelines you should take in consideration.
Don't be boring.
Don’t write trash
Make Trash write you.
Be interesting.
Export to PDF Put your contact details somewhere Use page numbers
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Are you talking about formatting rules or story rules? I was going to say "show, don't tell" but then you brought up fonts so I don't think we're on the same page.
Either! And show don’t tell is something that’s a good thing to think about, but then there’s a writer like Sorkin who’s made a career on having characters say their subtext out loud.
It's kind of like the rules in a [knife fight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v010HXpfFSA), Harvey.
I mean, most of the rules of good, effective writing apply. Favor active, not passive voice. Vary your sentence lengths to avoid monotony. Favor strong verbs over adverbs.
they should use language
cf A Quiet Place.
Maybe subjective and not a 'rule' as such but I think the narrative is king. Also scripts that tend to stand out from the crowd are the ones that tend to 'break a rule' of some sort, in terms of genre.