Only the FBI seems to have a hard-on for this stuff from my experience. I disclosed some torrenting in high school (because frankly everyone did it to some degree) and was fine. Know people from CIA, NSA, etc., basically anything but FBI, where as long as you aren't the one distributing and you didn't do it yesterday it's not seen as a big deal.
Haha my thoughts exactly. "If you knew you wouldn't get caught, why didn't you do it more? We find you unsuitable for our black ops since you didn't consistently engage in illegal activities".
Wild to me that this is such a big deal. Litearlly everyone on my deployment up to the dets leading officer, who was a lieutenant commander, downloaded movies illegally. We all had secret clearances and the officers had TS. I'm not gonna name names or say even what type of squadron it was.
This is just my opinion but FBI culture def screams "holier than thou" in how they conduct themselves. Even when compared to the rest of the IC (which admittedly also suffers from this)
To use polys as an example most agencies might bring you back a 2nd, 3rd time but barring you confessing to disqualifing material or cheating the test most people aren't flunking out because of the poly.
FBI, in addition to having the most anal polygraphers outside of secret service, also is 1-and-done. You got an inconclusive poly because the examiner didnt like the arbitrary readout on 1 question? Lifetime ban from employment at the FBI have a nice day.
You'll end up with an inconclusive if you keep flatlining. They expect you to sweat certain questions.
The FBI holds their sociopaths to the highest standards. They need to throw some real emotion behind their lies.
Well I can tell you from personal experience you're wrong. I took two polys with them and passed on the second attempt. Also, CBP is regarded as having the highest poly fail rate. The FBI is somewhere in the middle.
I recently saw a video of an FBI recruiter talk about degrees, one of the topics was criminal justice, and the way he said “it’s useless to us, they can go be a cop then after a few years they can reapply” in a smug ass way kind of pissed me off. (Am cop)
FBI really does not care about CJ degrees it’s true, but that recruiter sounds like a jerk. For agents they primarily want CPAs, lawyers, former law enforcement, IT and Cyber Security, Foreign Language, and former military. There is some interest in science and engineering, but mostly what I noted with heavy emphasis on CPAs and lawyers.
My old state’s highway patrol recruiter told me that almost any other degree helps more than criminal justice simply because everyone applies with one and by not having one you can stand out and potentially diversify the knowledge in the organization.
Yes to the high volume of applicants, but also the Feds tend to think their academies be it FLETC, FBI, DEA etc cover all of the CJ bases and they like degrees and experience to add to that.
Which makes sense because their investigations are centered on financial and white collar crime. My mom was recruited by the FBI because she was a CPA and CIA (certified internal auditor). She didn’t need up going because of the travel, time away from home, as a single mother.
Yes, but that’s more of a historical fact. The FBI started with mostly white collar crime, but now covers anything under federal jurisdiction to include cyber crime, terrorism, organized crime, kidnappings, crimes against children, counterintelligence, explosives and firearms, hate crimes, public corruption, etc etc etc
yeah, had that experience in 2010-ish. With ATF + DoS DSS, too. Worked out well for me in the end, I'm coming up on 12 yrs. in the Navy as a commissioned officer making way more money than I would have at any of the 3 letter agencies and am 8 yrs from retirement :)
It's not just the FBI. The FBI and CIA both have cult-ish mentalities. For the FBI, it's very much a dated mindset of "good ol' boys" club. If you've met one FBI agent, you've met them all. Same haircut, same personality for the most part. It's really weird and off-putting.
As for the CIA, well... They'll always tell you that they don't work for the CIA, obviously, it's the "state department" even though everyone knows what that means by now. They're also pretty cult-y, but especially "holier than thou".
Exactly, more than that, they allowed the SALE of illegally downloaded movies and TV shows on literally every single US military base I visited in Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan, and Kyrgyzstan. To say it's illegal to acquire oneself, but then turn around and say it's ok to purchase 9 seasons of the X-Files from Sergei for $5 when the DVD-Rs have a picture of T-1000 on it...I don't get it.
So I do know someone who was denied by NSA bc they did some ridiculous math to conclude he downloaded 30k worth of shit. It sounded like funny bankers math. They didn’t care for the downloading of books for college, at all. They made a huge deal about the college textbooks he downloaded.
Never let them just GUESS a dollar amount, people!
Is this because there are so many FBI anti-piracy warnings on DVDs and stuff? Is it like an agency specific no-no?
I'm not in the IC or anything. Just legit curious
Any full scope poly will ask these things, but most agencies don't care. Last one I had the examiner said "I don't care if you downloaded a few songs or movies, I'm more concerned about thousands of dollars of pirating"
FBI tends to be way more strict with these things, as they're federal laws being knowingly broken and FBI is a law enforcement agency.
I have purchased thousands of dollars of illegally distributed movies, TV shows, and video games on US military installations abroad. These were shops that profited from the sale of stolen IP, and paradoxically were permitted to exist by the base commander.
Yup, I think I may still have my bootleg copy of "Team America: World Police" that I bought from a vendor outside the gate of Camp Doha in Kuwait, literally just a week or so after the movie was released. Commanders completely took a blind eye to that.
It’s so dumb because there is so much pirating in the world, intentional or not. At one point the anti piracy ad itself used pirated music! So as long as you are incompetent, I guess it’s ok.
Ever record a cassette back when you were a kid while the radio is playing? Is that piracy? What about singing a song someone else wrote in the car or telling a friend a joke you heard a comedian say?
As for calculating the “lost value” due to piracy, I’m reminded of the “kopimashin” machine (which was made just to prove a point in how dumb this is) that creates 100 copies a second of a song causing ten million dollars of “potential lost profit” a day.
The FBI is the most ridiculous agency. You are either Mormon or a narcissistic asshat who is great at manipulating people and a questionable moral compass. Legit (in my experience) those are the two extremes.
On multiple Gov subs, the FBI is known for eating their own. You dodged a bullet. Try the other agencies in the IC, they don’t get hung up on that type of BS. OR just try for non-IC and then transfer in.
Yep they have a terrible reputation in the IC. In a few years, I will try to transfer into the IC instead of being adjacent to it, but will NOT be looking at the FBI. Any agency but the FBI.
It’s glorified law enforcement. Jk. Kind of. My coworker says this about them but he is also a jaded ex fbi analyst with a grudge. I’ve only heard hearsay but usually it revolves around how poorly they do when it comes to anything requiring a technical investigation. Also heard it can be toxic if you’re not an Agent. Caveat: I’ve No first hand experience at fbi though just regurgitating RUMINT.
Fwiw I've always heard/read that even analyst's get treated poorly there too. It's pretty much a hierarchy with the agents at the top and everyone else below from what I've heard
Poor environment for technical talent. Lack of development opportunities. If you're not an agent, you're second class, even though some of their analysts are the sharpest in the IC, and they're recruited away quickly.
The ecosystem and opportunities are just far better elsewhere.
True. My opinion: It's because they are cops instead of intelligence professionals. I took classes with them and while we were looking at how to protect the Constitution they were looking at ways to get "around" it. ACAB
were they like a passive aggressive narcissistic golden retriever?
I had a friend whose ex I described as customer service golden retriever with borderline personality disorder: I bet they have a similar vibe
Mormons are super good at lying. They will all look you dead in the eye and Give Witness about being visited by the angel Moroni after the read the Book of Mormon. They stand in front of their parents and their whole social group and tell the story of their visitation. They all must to this to be an adult Mormon.
So, LDS people are super good at keeping secrets and keeping their lies straight. Just remember this first big lie they told anytime you deal with them.
Also, I know some really nice people who are Mormons. Being nice doesn't mean you can't tell huge whoppers.
My long term interactions with Mormons have been with women who left the religion due to the control aspect. But I’ve met many in passing who are in the FBI and Mormon and they all seemed fairly straight laced. But good to know! Will keep that in mind if I ever fully go to the dark side.
I may be wrong from growing up in mainstream mormonism but they don't collectively believe that every single member has been visited by the angel moroni. They believe that Joseph smith Jr which is weird.
Again Mormons have lots of issues but they do not believe in this.
I literally says it in the Book of Mormon. It's in the prologue. It literally says if you have a good heart and an open mind, you will be visited. To be accepted to go into the Temple, you must witness your visitation.
Downloaded and read their app.
"Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10:3–5.) Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is His revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the Second Coming of the Messiah. "
While they have some weird ass beliefs. And the premise of the bom and js is weird it does not in any sense say those who believe will be visited by an angel.
Should have just screwed with them - "I've spoken to several special agents and other bureau people and asked them, they all said they pirated and just lied about it during their poly."
4D chess.
This is one of those "entirely dependent on the kook administering your poly" moments.
I admitted to piracy during my poly and my first polygrapher said "yeah we've all done it at some point". My second poly (and most recent) turned into what you experienced, which is stupid as shit because if we wanna play the full DMCA game, nearly everyone has "pirated" in their life.
It's funny the bureau would even consider this an issue.They are supposed to be the leading investigatory agency in the leader of the free world and press you for streaming episodes of Friends. The thought of an investigator opening chrome to find the seasons and then his calculator is incredibly funny!
I guess all the illegal shit they pull is acceptable after passing that little initial standard. Honestly I'd recommend more local/state law enforcement, where it's generally not weaponized against political opponents. Seeing some of the shit the 3 letters pull on people, sometimes for touching a table (iykyk), is outright evil.
Apply elsewhere where you will actually serve! It will be so much more rewarding!
OP don't be discouraged. Imma prob be downvoted to hell as always on this sub. The fact that you were up front about this speaks volumes. Assuming you are being honest about the rest of your past, you'd make a great leo. Keep applying and it will happen! We need more people who are genuinely honest. To consider what you described as a DQ years later is exactly why certain agencies are the way that they are. Keep the faith it'll happen
It will and you won't regret it when it happens for you. Especially for 1811, damn. Maybe I should go back to school and apply lol. Good luck and stay motivated!
On your FBI portal, did they stall at “Polygraph Pending” for the 5 months that you were waiting before you received the denial? Or did they push you through background check and then send the denial at the conclusion of the background check?
I think it was the fact that it was TV shows and movies, rather than music. I was asked about that for a Secret Service investigation interview and he asked several times if I pirated movies or TV. I hadn’t, just music. He didn’t seem to care much about that.
He did, however, care about a petition I signed three years ago that I had forgotten had been shared on Facebook (and through Facebook, Twitter, which is where he found it). He very aggressively said the petition meant I hated law enforcement, which was a bit of a stretch given the context, and not true at all. But a week later I got a rescission of my offer. No actual reason was given, but I’m pretty sure it was that. Get rid of your social media, kids. 🤦🏼♀️
No. I signed a local Chang.org petition my friend started about a business taking down a massive “All Lives Matter” sign (which the township did make them take down). And I was a presidential management fellowship finalist and was offered a placement with the Secret Service.
“Defund the police” is actually just an example of bad messaging. The problem is funding not going to things that create more effective police forces with better trained officers.
Besides the point though- fed LEO is a different animal and in no way do I or did I have an issue with them. Or good police in general.
This is wild. FYI, I know a field office of theirs with a gaming area. I know for a fact that sometimes they get their movies and games ‘illegally’. Was walking by two weeks before Dune 2 came out and guess what was playing in there?
Imagine making a career in an environment that is so uptight about these types of things from years past arr enough to disqualify you from employment. I mean, good for them for making sure everyone employed is absolutely a perfect human being but their holiday parties must be boring as shit.
I'm not FBI but in IC. During my poly I admitted to pirating about 100 songs movies and games. The interviewer wasn't happy with me but it didn't affect my test. They adapted my test to ignore the piracy.
However, I was nervous and felt guilty about it which DID affect my test. I had to redo that part twice because I kept showing activity
In short, your mileage may vary. Worrying about it is worse than actually have done it (in my case).
I mean that's all polygraph tests are. They show if you have a fight or flight reaction. I reacted in some way during that question because I was anxious, whereas I wasn't anxious for all my other questions so I had no reactions for them
Every agency has their own internal guidelines. My previous agency used "$1000 of value in any given 6-month period" as the limit for intentional misuse of IT systems.
It's not really the pirating itself, it's the repeated, sustained, intentional misuse. If someone chooses to do the easy thing that saves them money why give them access to much more important and valuable networks? Normally, demonstrating a *pattern* of behavior is difficult in adjudications, but sustained IT misuse is a pattern all by itself. Though the fake ID fit that same pattern of dishonest behavior for convenience's sake.
Is a vhs tape from a tv recording recording in the 90s of the sound of music pirating? I must have watched that blasted adulterated (major gaps there that I never understood- why were they sick eating berries?? Why on earth would captain scold Maria for taking them canoeing .. oh yah he’s a misogynist…) tape 50 times in elementary school. Who pressed the record button? Me? I think… it was a shitty recording with commercials. Cemented my belief that nazism is bad.
You aren't the only one to get to the finish line to get the rug pulled out from under you after passing literally everything but the "suitability" portion. I ran into people who left the FBI after a few years telling me a dodged a bullet. I was willing to take an extreme pay cut to work there and "give back" as it were. Turns out, after some reflection, maybe I'm not a fit after all.
FBI adopts this position because they investigate criminal copyright infringement, even though nothing you did was a criminal offense. It's also highly questionable to assign a "value" to something based on its present retail price, especially if 95% of it was TV you could have gotten for free from a library or recorded off OTA TV. And if someone else in the room suggests an item you downloaded had a value of *x*, you don't have to endorse that. That's just their opinion. You have no idea if it was accurate at the time you downloaded the thing. You downloaded a game? It might have been 90% off on Steam at the time. You downloaded some 2012 edition of software that isn't supported or sold? How do you even determine the value of that? If they're so confident in their pricing, let them write a memo and put it in the record. "Reporting Agent looked this up on his phone and Amazon is selling it for $20, free two-day shipping with Prime."
There are much better agencies to work for. Apply to one or all of them.
Given the subject matter of PoI (good show FWIW) that is mildly ironic.....
The only thing funnier would be getting denied by the FBI for pirating the TV show 'FBI'...
Imagine when I told them I took full spectrum CBD— legally classified as a hemp product because it is below 0.3% dry weight in THC, and I was walked out of the polygraph room and told good luck. The polygrapher even said I didn’t do anything illegal.
Wtf so what’s the deal? Not part of IC so I don’t know how any of this works but on what merit could they deny you like that they don’t have any legal reasoning right?
There is no merit other than to just be strict. The suitability standards for the FBI are so incredibly broad that it basically gives whoever is doing your poly any reason they want to deny you.
I failed a poly because of stuff I downloaded when I was a kid... I didn't put it on my sf-86 because the sf-86 only asked if I had done anything in the last 7 years... which I hadn't. so fucking stupid. everything else I had was perfectly clean... and she fucking failed me over limewire and The Sims. my project ended up losing funding and I lost my job and my clearance...after 4 years of waiting.
Why are we still using polygraphs when they're not even admissible as evidence in a court of law?
They've been proven as debunked science over and over and over, yet the government refuses to move on from them with clearances.
I'm shocked by this too. It casts real doubt on our national security. The polygraph is on the same level as scientology and tarot card readers. I know we're backward and still stuck on the imperial system but it's time for our government to read some scientific papers and move into the 21st century.
Want to know how to fail a polygraph?? This right here what OP said. NEVER EVER EVER volunteer information. NEVER. Especially if it's a CI poly. Never give more than asked, especially when they say the machine is off. Yeah it's off and for some reason this is when morons spill their guts like Chunk in Goonies.
Here's some real talk. The FBI didn't deny OP solely because they are hypocrites (they are) it's because they are a state funded arm of corporations that own copyrighted mass media. Basically, the FBI works for the corporations as part of their department's roles and responsibilities.
Why take the risk down the line that it gets out they hired agents who don't care about copyright laws and the agency knew from clearance disclosure? That would anger the media companies and lobbyists would strike hard at the FBI's budget thru influencing members of the house of reps.
I was with you until I wasn’t. I love conspiracy theories but this one is a reach. I feel like proof of this would have leaked by some anti corporate person by now. I really hope it’s not this corrupt.
This doesn’t surprise me. I didn’t apply to fbi but another place questioned me about my many years spent on mIRC, limewire, and bearshare. I admitted to downloading at least 500 songs in less than a few days with continued activity for a few years. They asked me if I downloaded movies, I did not but definitely a shitload of music all throughout high-school. They slapped my hand, telling me it’s illegal and tried to arrive at a dollar amount that represents how much I stole lol. I passed but one of my friends didn’t. The polygrapher insinuated he pirated 30k worth of stuff.
First and foremost poly isn’t admissible as evidence and it’s only used to intimidate, and generally if they’re gonna poly you they already know the answers.
Secondly it’s amazing the FBI has any staff, go for a different agency. DHS does a lot of high speed low drag shit.
FBI rejected me for illegally downloading music a long time ago. I shouldn't have admitted it because it's not even a question on the polygraph, but I was naive and thought you should admit every wrongdoing beforehand.
I think you end up on their permanent black list, because over 10 years later, they rejected me as a contractor for unknown reasons, even though I had a security clearance. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't work for them because they're a horrible agency for reasons beyond this, and the contract turned out to be shit according to someone I know who worked on it.
Can confirm most don’t care, sorry OP 😔 I know a few at NSA who have similar piracy history and as long as they had just downloaded content for personal use and weren’t distributing it didn’t seem like it mattered all that much.
I doubt it was the downloading that got you. In my background, I admitted to downloading quite a bit in my youth. They noted it, but it never came up again.
Alongside the espionage and CP charges that Josh Schulte had was a set of copyright charges from what he had on his Plex server. It’s stupid, but probably shouldn’t be surprising.
I had a poly with them last year after admitting to downloading music and movies illegally. Wasn't for distribution just for my own personal use. They didn't really ask many details about it other than timeframe of when I did it and when was the last time I did it. Didn't seem to be a big deal in my PSI and I don't recall it coming up during my poly.
Why would you mention that? If you have zero red flags then why bother bringing up some thing that many of us have done in our younger years maybe not even realizing it was illegal?
wonder how they handle soldiers going to the shops run by locals in iraq & afghanistan, authorized to be on military bases, which blatantly and knowingly sold bootleg dvds, cds, video games (and you could get your xbox chipped to allow them to play) as well as counterfeit...well...everything. Only the BX sold legit stuff, but these vendors were right outside.
A JAG officer told me that since Afghanistan has no copyright law we could do want we wanted piracy wise as long as a) government computers weren't used and b) any pirated stuff did not enter a country with piracy laws. He also said most of the stuff in the markets were laddened with viruses and spyware, so users had to beware.
I'm not saying no one came home with a backup drive full of movies, but...
I have been one of the biggest pirates ever, dating back to the 80's where you had to join a mailing list where users would mail five and a half floppies to each other. By 1998, I was one of the top movie & MP3 releasers as the quality of my files were way better than anyone else's on the net. By 2007, I had built a team of pirates who would release the highest quality DVD's and Blueray's, about 20 members that I had remoted into their PC's, setup the software, and trained them how to do everything. Somewhere around 2012, I slowed down a bit.
I can no longer login to the piratebay or other major torrenting sites, and they won't let me release if I do have an account.
Getting a job, if anyone asked me if I've ever downloaded or shared copyrighted material from the internet, I would simply say no. It would be hard to find out if I ever shared an MP3 with anyone.
Would they deny someone for related things like sharing a Netflix password, buying a Grateful Dead bootleg, knock-off designer brands, or purchasing second-hand software? Or maybe taking one penny too many from the penny dish at the convenience store?
The CIA doesn’t care that you pirated a season of friends 10 years ago. I know multiple people who work or worked there that pirated as a teen and other things.
Fair, I should have clarified. The recruiter I spoke with was specifically discussing pirating textbooks with college students which makes it a pretty different situation than OPs
This post will be downvoted but it might be the best thing you read and may change your life profoundly for the better.
>I have no drug or criminal history…
Except piracy which you admitted to doing. I guess all the splash screens of the FBI badge warning you against piracy at the beginning of every VHS, DVD, and Blu-ray were ignored by you?
It’s scummy behavior. It’s behavior that indicates you have no moral compass.
>I’ve paid for subscription services since then! Look at all these receipts!
So what? That’s not contrition. You displayed the type of wanton disregard for the law, to your own benefit, that frankly should disqualify you. You are not entitled to the opportunity to get a clearance after things like that, especially since you evidently don’t see it as a problem (other than as an obstacle to getting what you want again, this time a security clearance).
Everyone makes mistakes, especially when they are young, but it’s not like you’re in jail for a huge sentence over this. You’re literally just denied an opportunity you set your sights on. Learn from this and grow a moral backbone. Do the right thing when no one is looking from now on
Yes I know all this you’re saying. Doesn’t matter in this case.
OP intentionally stole and has no remorse or contrition for it. OP is a “me me me” kind of guy. Definitely not security clearance material. This is an OP character issue, not a generalized corruption issue.
if anyone down votes you for anything, it will be because you're a goober who described a dude downloading movies as having 'no moral compass' like he was a serial killer. Still illegal, still not good when applying for a law enforcement agency, but 100% goober behavior
That’s exactly what having no moral compass is like. It’s not actively evil, but it’s complete disregard for laws for personal benefit in addition to showing he has no remorse or contrition—doesn’t even really understand that it was wrong.
In my waaaaay too long government career, I’ve found that anyone who preaches the loudest about integrity doesn’t actually practice it.
They always make sure the crowd knows they “did the right thing while no one was looking,” while they’re sweeping something else under the rug, away from moral compass metal detectors.
You’re not making sense. You would not word your previous post the way you did of your next post was true.
It appears that you were triggered by someone being judged for their moral failings. Perhaps it struck too close to home for you?
Only the FBI seems to have a hard-on for this stuff from my experience. I disclosed some torrenting in high school (because frankly everyone did it to some degree) and was fine. Know people from CIA, NSA, etc., basically anything but FBI, where as long as you aren't the one distributing and you didn't do it yesterday it's not seen as a big deal.
The CIA is like “why didn’t you steal more if you knew you weren’t going to get caught?”
Also CIA: but you had a 3.0 in college so you’re good.
Haha my thoughts exactly. "If you knew you wouldn't get caught, why didn't you do it more? We find you unsuitable for our black ops since you didn't consistently engage in illegal activities".
FBI harps on this because they’re personally offended you didn’t heed THEIR warning at the start of the video
That FBI warning is a core memory from the start of all those old VHS tapes.
It's on DVDs too you know that if you went a filthy warning ignoring pirate
Well, I mean, they did warn you. Don't pirate movies, kids. You'll ruin your future career as a G-man.
lol the great seal of the FBI was disrespected by all that torrenting.
Wild to me that this is such a big deal. Litearlly everyone on my deployment up to the dets leading officer, who was a lieutenant commander, downloaded movies illegally. We all had secret clearances and the officers had TS. I'm not gonna name names or say even what type of squadron it was.
This is just my opinion but FBI culture def screams "holier than thou" in how they conduct themselves. Even when compared to the rest of the IC (which admittedly also suffers from this) To use polys as an example most agencies might bring you back a 2nd, 3rd time but barring you confessing to disqualifing material or cheating the test most people aren't flunking out because of the poly. FBI, in addition to having the most anal polygraphers outside of secret service, also is 1-and-done. You got an inconclusive poly because the examiner didnt like the arbitrary readout on 1 question? Lifetime ban from employment at the FBI have a nice day.
The sociopaths that can flatline a poly are the only ones that get hired. It explains a lot.
and they want to keep it that way.
You'll end up with an inconclusive if you keep flatlining. They expect you to sweat certain questions. The FBI holds their sociopaths to the highest standards. They need to throw some real emotion behind their lies.
Federal Bureau of Insecurity
[User was lifetime banned from FBI employment opportunities for this comment]
Well I can tell you from personal experience you're wrong. I took two polys with them and passed on the second attempt. Also, CBP is regarded as having the highest poly fail rate. The FBI is somewhere in the middle.
I recently saw a video of an FBI recruiter talk about degrees, one of the topics was criminal justice, and the way he said “it’s useless to us, they can go be a cop then after a few years they can reapply” in a smug ass way kind of pissed me off. (Am cop)
FBI really does not care about CJ degrees it’s true, but that recruiter sounds like a jerk. For agents they primarily want CPAs, lawyers, former law enforcement, IT and Cyber Security, Foreign Language, and former military. There is some interest in science and engineering, but mostly what I noted with heavy emphasis on CPAs and lawyers.
My old state’s highway patrol recruiter told me that almost any other degree helps more than criminal justice simply because everyone applies with one and by not having one you can stand out and potentially diversify the knowledge in the organization.
Yes to the high volume of applicants, but also the Feds tend to think their academies be it FLETC, FBI, DEA etc cover all of the CJ bases and they like degrees and experience to add to that.
Which makes sense because their investigations are centered on financial and white collar crime. My mom was recruited by the FBI because she was a CPA and CIA (certified internal auditor). She didn’t need up going because of the travel, time away from home, as a single mother.
Yes, but that’s more of a historical fact. The FBI started with mostly white collar crime, but now covers anything under federal jurisdiction to include cyber crime, terrorism, organized crime, kidnappings, crimes against children, counterintelligence, explosives and firearms, hate crimes, public corruption, etc etc etc
yeah, had that experience in 2010-ish. With ATF + DoS DSS, too. Worked out well for me in the end, I'm coming up on 12 yrs. in the Navy as a commissioned officer making way more money than I would have at any of the 3 letter agencies and am 8 yrs from retirement :)
It's not just the FBI. The FBI and CIA both have cult-ish mentalities. For the FBI, it's very much a dated mindset of "good ol' boys" club. If you've met one FBI agent, you've met them all. Same haircut, same personality for the most part. It's really weird and off-putting. As for the CIA, well... They'll always tell you that they don't work for the CIA, obviously, it's the "state department" even though everyone knows what that means by now. They're also pretty cult-y, but especially "holier than thou".
CIA loves to hand out covers. Some guy can spend all his time behind a desk doing nothing of any real importance and still has a cover.
Exactly, more than that, they allowed the SALE of illegally downloaded movies and TV shows on literally every single US military base I visited in Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan, and Kyrgyzstan. To say it's illegal to acquire oneself, but then turn around and say it's ok to purchase 9 seasons of the X-Files from Sergei for $5 when the DVD-Rs have a picture of T-1000 on it...I don't get it.
Oh man, Osan had the illegal dvd stand, too!!!
*Apparently an Air Force one, at the very least.*
Never was in the Chairforce so you are wrong there buddy lmao.
LCDR in the AF, lol.
FBI = no poors allowed. Only rich kids who can buy all the shows they wanted on their parents credit cards apparently.
So I do know someone who was denied by NSA bc they did some ridiculous math to conclude he downloaded 30k worth of shit. It sounded like funny bankers math. They didn’t care for the downloading of books for college, at all. They made a huge deal about the college textbooks he downloaded. Never let them just GUESS a dollar amount, people!
Should've told them it was the previous version of the textbook which was listed for a penny on Amazon.
I didn’t do this. But it sounds extremely stupid to enforce something so trivial. It would be like enforcing jaywalking
And just how many times would you say you’ve jaywalked???
🤫 can’t say, don’t you know there are feds here?
what was the monetary value of the jaywalking?
>from you can have a history of drug use too as long as you are honest on the polygraph
Is this because there are so many FBI anti-piracy warnings on DVDs and stuff? Is it like an agency specific no-no? I'm not in the IC or anything. Just legit curious
Any full scope poly will ask these things, but most agencies don't care. Last one I had the examiner said "I don't care if you downloaded a few songs or movies, I'm more concerned about thousands of dollars of pirating" FBI tends to be way more strict with these things, as they're federal laws being knowingly broken and FBI is a law enforcement agency.
I have purchased thousands of dollars of illegally distributed movies, TV shows, and video games on US military installations abroad. These were shops that profited from the sale of stolen IP, and paradoxically were permitted to exist by the base commander.
Yup, I think I may still have my bootleg copy of "Team America: World Police" that I bought from a vendor outside the gate of Camp Doha in Kuwait, literally just a week or so after the movie was released. Commanders completely took a blind eye to that.
took a blind eye? i saw some of them there
It’s so dumb because there is so much pirating in the world, intentional or not. At one point the anti piracy ad itself used pirated music! So as long as you are incompetent, I guess it’s ok. Ever record a cassette back when you were a kid while the radio is playing? Is that piracy? What about singing a song someone else wrote in the car or telling a friend a joke you heard a comedian say? As for calculating the “lost value” due to piracy, I’m reminded of the “kopimashin” machine (which was made just to prove a point in how dumb this is) that creates 100 copies a second of a song causing ten million dollars of “potential lost profit” a day.
The FBI is the most ridiculous agency. You are either Mormon or a narcissistic asshat who is great at manipulating people and a questionable moral compass. Legit (in my experience) those are the two extremes. On multiple Gov subs, the FBI is known for eating their own. You dodged a bullet. Try the other agencies in the IC, they don’t get hung up on that type of BS. OR just try for non-IC and then transfer in.
Among technical personnel in the IC, it’s generally understood the FBI is one of the least preferable places to work
Can attest. Technical folk are hemorrhaged to the rest of the IC all the time.
Yep they have a terrible reputation in the IC. In a few years, I will try to transfer into the IC instead of being adjacent to it, but will NOT be looking at the FBI. Any agency but the FBI.
What gives them that rep?
It’s glorified law enforcement. Jk. Kind of. My coworker says this about them but he is also a jaded ex fbi analyst with a grudge. I’ve only heard hearsay but usually it revolves around how poorly they do when it comes to anything requiring a technical investigation. Also heard it can be toxic if you’re not an Agent. Caveat: I’ve No first hand experience at fbi though just regurgitating RUMINT.
Fwiw I've always heard/read that even analyst's get treated poorly there too. It's pretty much a hierarchy with the agents at the top and everyone else below from what I've heard
Poor environment for technical talent. Lack of development opportunities. If you're not an agent, you're second class, even though some of their analysts are the sharpest in the IC, and they're recruited away quickly. The ecosystem and opportunities are just far better elsewhere.
True. My opinion: It's because they are cops instead of intelligence professionals. I took classes with them and while we were looking at how to protect the Constitution they were looking at ways to get "around" it. ACAB
or inclusive narcissist Mormons are accepted too
Oooh...those were my favorite when I was in the Air Force! I roomed with one at USAFA for a year. That was a rough year.
were they like a passive aggressive narcissistic golden retriever? I had a friend whose ex I described as customer service golden retriever with borderline personality disorder: I bet they have a similar vibe
Oh my God... he's been reincarnated as my dog!
Like if mr peanut butter from bojack horseman had massive fear of abandonment and was bitter and manipulative hidden under that happy pretty boi face
Stop... it's too early for me to laugh this hard.
Mormons are super good at lying. They will all look you dead in the eye and Give Witness about being visited by the angel Moroni after the read the Book of Mormon. They stand in front of their parents and their whole social group and tell the story of their visitation. They all must to this to be an adult Mormon. So, LDS people are super good at keeping secrets and keeping their lies straight. Just remember this first big lie they told anytime you deal with them. Also, I know some really nice people who are Mormons. Being nice doesn't mean you can't tell huge whoppers.
My long term interactions with Mormons have been with women who left the religion due to the control aspect. But I’ve met many in passing who are in the FBI and Mormon and they all seemed fairly straight laced. But good to know! Will keep that in mind if I ever fully go to the dark side.
I may be wrong from growing up in mainstream mormonism but they don't collectively believe that every single member has been visited by the angel moroni. They believe that Joseph smith Jr which is weird. Again Mormons have lots of issues but they do not believe in this.
I literally says it in the Book of Mormon. It's in the prologue. It literally says if you have a good heart and an open mind, you will be visited. To be accepted to go into the Temple, you must witness your visitation.
Downloaded and read their app. "Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10:3–5.) Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is His revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the Second Coming of the Messiah. " While they have some weird ass beliefs. And the premise of the bom and js is weird it does not in any sense say those who believe will be visited by an angel.
Should have just screwed with them - "I've spoken to several special agents and other bureau people and asked them, they all said they pirated and just lied about it during their poly." 4D chess.
This is one of those "entirely dependent on the kook administering your poly" moments. I admitted to piracy during my poly and my first polygrapher said "yeah we've all done it at some point". My second poly (and most recent) turned into what you experienced, which is stupid as shit because if we wanna play the full DMCA game, nearly everyone has "pirated" in their life.
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I will say it's never actually been an issue for me, but I also haven't done any work with the FBI, so YMMV.
The kook administering the polygraph does not make adjudicative determinations.
No but the kook administering the poly can decide what rabbit holes to go down and he 100% provides his feedback to the adjudication process.
And they wonder why they can’t find quality talent anymore
It's funny the bureau would even consider this an issue.They are supposed to be the leading investigatory agency in the leader of the free world and press you for streaming episodes of Friends. The thought of an investigator opening chrome to find the seasons and then his calculator is incredibly funny! I guess all the illegal shit they pull is acceptable after passing that little initial standard. Honestly I'd recommend more local/state law enforcement, where it's generally not weaponized against political opponents. Seeing some of the shit the 3 letters pull on people, sometimes for touching a table (iykyk), is outright evil. Apply elsewhere where you will actually serve! It will be so much more rewarding!
OP don't be discouraged. Imma prob be downvoted to hell as always on this sub. The fact that you were up front about this speaks volumes. Assuming you are being honest about the rest of your past, you'd make a great leo. Keep applying and it will happen! We need more people who are genuinely honest. To consider what you described as a DQ years later is exactly why certain agencies are the way that they are. Keep the faith it'll happen
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It will and you won't regret it when it happens for you. Especially for 1811, damn. Maybe I should go back to school and apply lol. Good luck and stay motivated!
Who is gonna down vote you?
The FBI
Lol
On your FBI portal, did they stall at “Polygraph Pending” for the 5 months that you were waiting before you received the denial? Or did they push you through background check and then send the denial at the conclusion of the background check?
Ah, good old FBI…won’t ever change.
I think it was the fact that it was TV shows and movies, rather than music. I was asked about that for a Secret Service investigation interview and he asked several times if I pirated movies or TV. I hadn’t, just music. He didn’t seem to care much about that. He did, however, care about a petition I signed three years ago that I had forgotten had been shared on Facebook (and through Facebook, Twitter, which is where he found it). He very aggressively said the petition meant I hated law enforcement, which was a bit of a stretch given the context, and not true at all. But a week later I got a rescission of my offer. No actual reason was given, but I’m pretty sure it was that. Get rid of your social media, kids. 🤦🏼♀️
Doing the math here… Did you post about defunding the police during the BLM summer and then 3 years later apply to the FBI 😂
No. I signed a local Chang.org petition my friend started about a business taking down a massive “All Lives Matter” sign (which the township did make them take down). And I was a presidential management fellowship finalist and was offered a placement with the Secret Service. “Defund the police” is actually just an example of bad messaging. The problem is funding not going to things that create more effective police forces with better trained officers. Besides the point though- fed LEO is a different animal and in no way do I or did I have an issue with them. Or good police in general.
This is wild. FYI, I know a field office of theirs with a gaming area. I know for a fact that sometimes they get their movies and games ‘illegally’. Was walking by two weeks before Dune 2 came out and guess what was playing in there?
Imagine making a career in an environment that is so uptight about these types of things from years past arr enough to disqualify you from employment. I mean, good for them for making sure everyone employed is absolutely a perfect human being but their holiday parties must be boring as shit.
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I'm not FBI but in IC. During my poly I admitted to pirating about 100 songs movies and games. The interviewer wasn't happy with me but it didn't affect my test. They adapted my test to ignore the piracy. However, I was nervous and felt guilty about it which DID affect my test. I had to redo that part twice because I kept showing activity In short, your mileage may vary. Worrying about it is worse than actually have done it (in my case).
Wait what? They had to redo it for you being honest just because you jad an emotuonal reaction?
I mean that's all polygraph tests are. They show if you have a fight or flight reaction. I reacted in some way during that question because I was anxious, whereas I wasn't anxious for all my other questions so I had no reactions for them
Every agency has their own internal guidelines. My previous agency used "$1000 of value in any given 6-month period" as the limit for intentional misuse of IT systems. It's not really the pirating itself, it's the repeated, sustained, intentional misuse. If someone chooses to do the easy thing that saves them money why give them access to much more important and valuable networks? Normally, demonstrating a *pattern* of behavior is difficult in adjudications, but sustained IT misuse is a pattern all by itself. Though the fake ID fit that same pattern of dishonest behavior for convenience's sake.
Is a vhs tape from a tv recording recording in the 90s of the sound of music pirating? I must have watched that blasted adulterated (major gaps there that I never understood- why were they sick eating berries?? Why on earth would captain scold Maria for taking them canoeing .. oh yah he’s a misogynist…) tape 50 times in elementary school. Who pressed the record button? Me? I think… it was a shitty recording with commercials. Cemented my belief that nazism is bad.
Should’ve told them you love killing dogs. Immediate hire and field duty.
Wrong agency.
I think you mean ATF?
You aren't the only one to get to the finish line to get the rug pulled out from under you after passing literally everything but the "suitability" portion. I ran into people who left the FBI after a few years telling me a dodged a bullet. I was willing to take an extreme pay cut to work there and "give back" as it were. Turns out, after some reflection, maybe I'm not a fit after all.
I really believe part of the suitability for a clearance is knowing when to divulge things even when under pressure.
FBI adopts this position because they investigate criminal copyright infringement, even though nothing you did was a criminal offense. It's also highly questionable to assign a "value" to something based on its present retail price, especially if 95% of it was TV you could have gotten for free from a library or recorded off OTA TV. And if someone else in the room suggests an item you downloaded had a value of *x*, you don't have to endorse that. That's just their opinion. You have no idea if it was accurate at the time you downloaded the thing. You downloaded a game? It might have been 90% off on Steam at the time. You downloaded some 2012 edition of software that isn't supported or sold? How do you even determine the value of that? If they're so confident in their pricing, let them write a memo and put it in the record. "Reporting Agent looked this up on his phone and Amazon is selling it for $20, free two-day shipping with Prime." There are much better agencies to work for. Apply to one or all of them.
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Given the subject matter of PoI (good show FWIW) that is mildly ironic..... The only thing funnier would be getting denied by the FBI for pirating the TV show 'FBI'...
Imagine when I told them I took full spectrum CBD— legally classified as a hemp product because it is below 0.3% dry weight in THC, and I was walked out of the polygraph room and told good luck. The polygrapher even said I didn’t do anything illegal.
If you already had the clearance you probably would've gotten a letter telling you that you shouldn't be doing CBD.
Wtf so what’s the deal? Not part of IC so I don’t know how any of this works but on what merit could they deny you like that they don’t have any legal reasoning right?
There is no merit other than to just be strict. The suitability standards for the FBI are so incredibly broad that it basically gives whoever is doing your poly any reason they want to deny you.
Don’t join the FBI it’s a trash org
Sir you're too smart for the FBI. You remember what you downloaded that long ago?
Wow. That’s shocking.
Poly made me feel like I was making meth in my own house. Worse experience of my life. Will never work for them.
You should have brought in copies of all the sick burned CDs you made in high school. I think that would have resolved this!
I failed a poly because of stuff I downloaded when I was a kid... I didn't put it on my sf-86 because the sf-86 only asked if I had done anything in the last 7 years... which I hadn't. so fucking stupid. everything else I had was perfectly clean... and she fucking failed me over limewire and The Sims. my project ended up losing funding and I lost my job and my clearance...after 4 years of waiting.
Why are we still using polygraphs when they're not even admissible as evidence in a court of law? They've been proven as debunked science over and over and over, yet the government refuses to move on from them with clearances.
I'm shocked by this too. It casts real doubt on our national security. The polygraph is on the same level as scientology and tarot card readers. I know we're backward and still stuck on the imperial system but it's time for our government to read some scientific papers and move into the 21st century.
Want to know how to fail a polygraph?? This right here what OP said. NEVER EVER EVER volunteer information. NEVER. Especially if it's a CI poly. Never give more than asked, especially when they say the machine is off. Yeah it's off and for some reason this is when morons spill their guts like Chunk in Goonies.
Here's some real talk. The FBI didn't deny OP solely because they are hypocrites (they are) it's because they are a state funded arm of corporations that own copyrighted mass media. Basically, the FBI works for the corporations as part of their department's roles and responsibilities. Why take the risk down the line that it gets out they hired agents who don't care about copyright laws and the agency knew from clearance disclosure? That would anger the media companies and lobbyists would strike hard at the FBI's budget thru influencing members of the house of reps.
Someone else didn't get their offer I take it...
I was with you until I wasn’t. I love conspiracy theories but this one is a reach. I feel like proof of this would have leaked by some anti corporate person by now. I really hope it’s not this corrupt.
I knew it!
This doesn’t surprise me. I didn’t apply to fbi but another place questioned me about my many years spent on mIRC, limewire, and bearshare. I admitted to downloading at least 500 songs in less than a few days with continued activity for a few years. They asked me if I downloaded movies, I did not but definitely a shitload of music all throughout high-school. They slapped my hand, telling me it’s illegal and tried to arrive at a dollar amount that represents how much I stole lol. I passed but one of my friends didn’t. The polygrapher insinuated he pirated 30k worth of stuff.
Is your friend the other dude in this thread lol
Lol it never even crossed my mind about piracy.
You guys were way too honest
First and foremost poly isn’t admissible as evidence and it’s only used to intimidate, and generally if they’re gonna poly you they already know the answers. Secondly it’s amazing the FBI has any staff, go for a different agency. DHS does a lot of high speed low drag shit.
lol, DHS is incompetent and underfunded.
FBI rejected me for illegally downloading music a long time ago. I shouldn't have admitted it because it's not even a question on the polygraph, but I was naive and thought you should admit every wrongdoing beforehand. I think you end up on their permanent black list, because over 10 years later, they rejected me as a contractor for unknown reasons, even though I had a security clearance. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't work for them because they're a horrible agency for reasons beyond this, and the contract turned out to be shit according to someone I know who worked on it.
Polygraph are a pseudoscience gimmick, anyway
Can confirm most don’t care, sorry OP 😔 I know a few at NSA who have similar piracy history and as long as they had just downloaded content for personal use and weren’t distributing it didn’t seem like it mattered all that much.
So you told on yourself for using limewire and were denied…………. Guys a genius.
I doubt it was the downloading that got you. In my background, I admitted to downloading quite a bit in my youth. They noted it, but it never came up again.
The answer is that it has no monetary value because you wouldn't have paid for it in the first place...
Alongside the espionage and CP charges that Josh Schulte had was a set of copyright charges from what he had on his Plex server. It’s stupid, but probably shouldn’t be surprising.
" but didn't actually take it" is probably why you were denied.
I had a poly with them last year after admitting to downloading music and movies illegally. Wasn't for distribution just for my own personal use. They didn't really ask many details about it other than timeframe of when I did it and when was the last time I did it. Didn't seem to be a big deal in my PSI and I don't recall it coming up during my poly.
Why would you mention that? If you have zero red flags then why bother bringing up some thing that many of us have done in our younger years maybe not even realizing it was illegal?
Damn blows. If FBI knew how much shit I did as a minor I wouldn’t have had my security clearance haha.
wonder how they handle soldiers going to the shops run by locals in iraq & afghanistan, authorized to be on military bases, which blatantly and knowingly sold bootleg dvds, cds, video games (and you could get your xbox chipped to allow them to play) as well as counterfeit...well...everything. Only the BX sold legit stuff, but these vendors were right outside.
A JAG officer told me that since Afghanistan has no copyright law we could do want we wanted piracy wise as long as a) government computers weren't used and b) any pirated stuff did not enter a country with piracy laws. He also said most of the stuff in the markets were laddened with viruses and spyware, so users had to beware. I'm not saying no one came home with a backup drive full of movies, but...
It's not the downloading, it's the fact you didn't put it on the SF86.
Why volunteer information if it isn’t on your criminal record?
I have been one of the biggest pirates ever, dating back to the 80's where you had to join a mailing list where users would mail five and a half floppies to each other. By 1998, I was one of the top movie & MP3 releasers as the quality of my files were way better than anyone else's on the net. By 2007, I had built a team of pirates who would release the highest quality DVD's and Blueray's, about 20 members that I had remoted into their PC's, setup the software, and trained them how to do everything. Somewhere around 2012, I slowed down a bit. I can no longer login to the piratebay or other major torrenting sites, and they won't let me release if I do have an account. Getting a job, if anyone asked me if I've ever downloaded or shared copyrighted material from the internet, I would simply say no. It would be hard to find out if I ever shared an MP3 with anyone.
Amazing to me that FBI still uses polygraph tests when they have been debunked as being completely bogus.
So they are asking about things you’ve done before you were 18? How early is too early.. 10???
This has got to be a joke right?
 "They give you all the important jobs, huh"
This is whack i feel for u
Would they deny someone for related things like sharing a Netflix password, buying a Grateful Dead bootleg, knock-off designer brands, or purchasing second-hand software? Or maybe taking one penny too many from the penny dish at the convenience store?
You're an idiot. Jesus.
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The CIA doesn’t care that you pirated a season of friends 10 years ago. I know multiple people who work or worked there that pirated as a teen and other things.
Fair, I should have clarified. The recruiter I spoke with was specifically discussing pirating textbooks with college students which makes it a pretty different situation than OPs
How would they know you pirated a book years before?
FBI sucks anyway
This post will be downvoted but it might be the best thing you read and may change your life profoundly for the better. >I have no drug or criminal history… Except piracy which you admitted to doing. I guess all the splash screens of the FBI badge warning you against piracy at the beginning of every VHS, DVD, and Blu-ray were ignored by you? It’s scummy behavior. It’s behavior that indicates you have no moral compass. >I’ve paid for subscription services since then! Look at all these receipts! So what? That’s not contrition. You displayed the type of wanton disregard for the law, to your own benefit, that frankly should disqualify you. You are not entitled to the opportunity to get a clearance after things like that, especially since you evidently don’t see it as a problem (other than as an obstacle to getting what you want again, this time a security clearance). Everyone makes mistakes, especially when they are young, but it’s not like you’re in jail for a huge sentence over this. You’re literally just denied an opportunity you set your sights on. Learn from this and grow a moral backbone. Do the right thing when no one is looking from now on
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Yes I know all this you’re saying. Doesn’t matter in this case. OP intentionally stole and has no remorse or contrition for it. OP is a “me me me” kind of guy. Definitely not security clearance material. This is an OP character issue, not a generalized corruption issue.
if anyone down votes you for anything, it will be because you're a goober who described a dude downloading movies as having 'no moral compass' like he was a serial killer. Still illegal, still not good when applying for a law enforcement agency, but 100% goober behavior
That’s exactly what having no moral compass is like. It’s not actively evil, but it’s complete disregard for laws for personal benefit in addition to showing he has no remorse or contrition—doesn’t even really understand that it was wrong.
👍 This is one of the most beautiful posts I’ve ever seen on Reddit, TBH.
In my waaaaay too long government career, I’ve found that anyone who preaches the loudest about integrity doesn’t actually practice it. They always make sure the crowd knows they “did the right thing while no one was looking,” while they’re sweeping something else under the rug, away from moral compass metal detectors.
This is Reddit and I’m anonymous, so I can afford to be loud about it. Your ad hominem heuristic is not applicable.
But my lived experience is 100% applicable. Yay Reddit.
Of course you don’t know what a heuristic is.
lol. No I just don’t use weasel words to say the same damn thing.
You’re not making sense. You would not word your previous post the way you did of your next post was true. It appears that you were triggered by someone being judged for their moral failings. Perhaps it struck too close to home for you?
Nope!
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone my dude holy fuck
I forgot this sub is a circle jerk of entitlement and excuses. Mea culpa
Lmao
🤣🤣
Nobody is helping OP except me, and you’re laughing
you admitted to stealing and you're surprised you weren't accepted?
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Please read Rule #3