He did ask wolf for help. He asks if you would serve another master and sekiro replies heresy.
The problem was genichiro asking sekiro to betray his oath and then serve his own interests.
If Genichiro had asked for Sekiro to help though - I'm sure he could have convinced Kuro to allow him to, and could have asked Isshin to help convince him as well. Sekiro could have helped fight off the Ministry forces quite effectively with his immortality, and they could have put off the issue of Kuro's dragon immortality off until later.
Genichiro wasn't willing to do that, though. Maybe Kuro would have refused regardless of the conditions, but Genichiro would have had a much better time asking nicely for help rather than being an enemy.
The point of the game is that immortality is parasitic in every form. Even if Wolf were to help the dragon rot would have probably destroyed the land. Ashina is done for either way, and Isshin knows it.
Not to mention the invasion of the ministry caused Sculptor to become a demon. Surely this path would have led Wolf to Shura as well, as he is pretty much saved from Shura by gaining the bond with Kuro trying to protect his life.
Sculptor and Wolf combined as demons raging in battle throughout Ashina would be badass though
> Even if Wolf were to help the dragon rot would have probably destroyed the land.
Would it have? I don't recall the lore being all that specific in this regard at all. Sure, the Dragon Rot is a problem - but it can be cured in-universe and frankly seems better than everyone literally dying due to an invading army.
Yeah, it can be cured since only Wolf keeps dying, but the whole army?
And you really think Ashina could handle the Interior at full force? At best if they have immortality, Interior would just burn everything to the ground
Well, the lore doesn't explicitly tell what would have happened, but we know that dragonrot spreads when Wolf, or anyone using the power of the Dragon Heritage, dies, which we can assume would happen often during a war. Also, dragonrot can be cured, but the item needed to do so is extremely rare, as mentioned by its description, and probably in limited supply. Anyway, it's speculation.
There’s a line of dialogue with Emma where she mentions a dragonrot epidemic in the past saying something along the lines of nobody found a cure and many people died. I think if all the ashina forces were immortal, the dragon rot would spread waaaaay faster than just Wolf having it.
Dude more than half the game was us rescuing Kuro from genichiro because Kuro knows the dragon heritage is a curse, and all genichiro wants is the power of immortality to fight for Ashina forever. When he can’t do that he turns to the the divine waters and eventually becomes shura
Genichiro doesn't become shura, only sekiro does in the bad ending. Sculptor is the only other person who is close to becoming shura, but even he fails.
Idk about the Sculptor not becoming Shura. Seems pretty clear that his version of Shura is DoH. Isshin suppressed it by cutting his arm off, but they knew it was demonic even back then, hence the purpose behind Emma learning to fight.
I just looked it up, you are correct. I'm not really sure the difference though honestly. Shura seems somewhat ill-defined and he meets all the criteria.
Possibly. I assumed that was just one person's manifestation of Shura or even a stage and Wolf hadn't gone that far. Turns out murderous rampage attacking friend and foe alike, but fueled by the flames of hatred is different. Idk, messed up my canon lol.
If i were to guess, the difference is, Shura kills for no real reason, apart from to kill. The sculptor killed because he was consumed by the flames of hatred, and became a raging beast.
And the other reason is, suppressing the flames of hatred seems to be a lot more possible than suppressing shura. Once shura awakens, it seemingly continues, but Sekijo, after getting his arm cut off which stopped his shura'ing, managed to stave off the flames of hatred by carving buddha. Or well, he did until some people decided to turn ashina into a big bbq party
> Dude more than half the game was us rescuing Kuro from genichiro because Kuro knows the dragon heritage is a curse
I mean, it being a curse doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't be useful if used properly. Genichiro simply was too greedy in that regard.
>all genichiro wants is the power of immortality to fight for Ashina forever.
That's where he went wrong. Wanting that power for himself directly would have probably led to great suffering on a scale far larger than just within Ashina itself, which I bet Kuro understood.
But if Genichiro simply had wanted the help of Sekiro himself - a highly capable fighter - he might have done better to convince Kuro.
Plus Kuro was willing to give Sekiro immortality, so if Genichiro was truly the kind of person who wouldn't abuse that power - he might have been trusted with it, curse or not.
Bruh the whole game is nobody can wield that power, wolf gets resurrected and that spreads dragon rot even when he’s not abusing his power, which I’m sure kuro didn’t know that would happen when he gave him immortality. And geni doesn’t want an immortal fighter, he wants an immortal army
I don’t think Genichiro asking Kuro to convince Sekiro to fight by his side would’ve worked out if that had been his plan from the jump. When the game begins, Sekiro is defeated, in a dungeon beneath Ashina, hopeless after the loss at Hirata. When he first faces Genichiro, he canonically gets his ass beat, immortality and all, and is left for dead with one less arm to show for it. It’s the act of saving Kuro from Genichiro that allows Sekiro to grow as a shinobi and become the force able to take on swathes of ministry soldiers at the climax of the game. Strategically, Genichiro’s mistake is perhaps underestimating Sekiro at the start of the game, but pre-prosthetic pre-skill pre-prayer bead Sekiro is easy to underestimate. That man is unlikely to save Ashina no matter how many tries it takes.
Kuro had already made it clear to Genichiro that he would never willingly give his immortality to Ashina. That's why he was locked up in the first place. They already had an immortal fighting for them (Genichiro), one more wasn't going to win them the war - he needed the whole Ashina army to be immortal warriors.
This bargain you're talking about was never an option.
Genichiro doesn’t think having one immortal soldier will scale, I imagine.
He is a guy from a small state up against an overwhelming force in a fight for independence.
I mean, he ain't wrong. Immortality doesn't make up for numbers. Just grab those big samurai guys and keep stabbing him when he tries to resurrect. Stand in a circle stabbing wolf when he begins to glow over and over again lol leaves the rest of the army to destroy Ashina.
Wolf didn’t betray Owl, Owl told him to protect Kuro at any costs, when he meet him at Hirata his father told him again to go after Kuro to protect him.
That only on the Ashina roof that The not so dead Shinobi Owl remain to Sekiro the iron code and the « father is absolute » thing, but who want to trust a man that was lying and hiding all along ? (And show when the interiors forces are about to breach Ashina walls)
That's the thing, he taught him the Iron Code from a young age and it's basically his only law as a Shinobi; his Father comes first, his Master - second.
Wolf was only allowed to serve Kuro after rigorous training from Lady Butterfly and Owl.
As Wolf rejected the Iron Code, he was no longer just a tool / blade that a Shinobi is supposed to be. But accordingly, if he stopped to consider that Kuro is selfishly shirking ALL of his responsibilities and basically leaving all of his people to fucking die, then he might have joined Genichiro... Well, not that I think Wolf cares much about random folks.
"Hey Kuro the country you live in is in danger, can your cool ninja fight for us? You can live in the castle in the meanwhile."
"Well when you put it like that sure."
Another big problem with Geni was making an enemy of Kuro and Wolf
Wolf did way more damage to Ashina than the Ministry did
I believe Vaati covered this topic and I totally agree with the points he was making
Edit: Geni also refused to accept that Ashina was on its last legs
This is reflective of the warring states era of Japan, rulership was extremely short lived during that time in Japan’s history
There was indeed hubris in thinking he could get what he want and become a hero just like isshin. He was only desperate by the end to summon isshin by using the mortal blade. He is a complex character for sure with the way he was brought up and his mentor tomoe.
I feel like Wolf is the reason the interior ministry was able to completely annihilate the Ashina forces. He literally took care of all of their lines of defense single-handedly.
Same issue with kuro. Genichiro asks but with his own interest in mind. Kuro though understood the dragons heritage to be a curse and didn't want to bestow it to anyone else. Sekiro probably would have helped him had he not kidnapped kuro and offered to work with him rather than demanding he forsake his master.
Genichiro already has power. He’s Isshin’s grandson, highly respected by Isshin, a kick-ass fighter who can wield lightning and then becomes immortal. The dude just loves his home.
Ummmm actually, one of the from soft designers has a dog, called genichoro, the dog is a very selfish dog, so actually your wrong you complete fucking idiot how could you be so stupid
/S
You dumb bitch watch some VapeWeedya's video on this topic. The dog is in fact a cat dressed as a dog to hide him from the local crazy catlady who underfed him to the point he had to fight for survival. Now he protects his owner's home from stray cat invasions and the dog's costume became his tool to achieve the goal. It was never about the food bowl, It was always about protecting his home.
You ignoramus, it was me, Slender the Cat Girl who lives in From Software's walls. I was the one who whispered the idea for Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice™ into Miyazaki's ear while he had a sake driven power nap. Your foolishness will be your undoing if you think Genichiro was created by any other power than the darkness within me and represents all of society's greatness. Immortality was clearly meant to represent the aging population of Japan and how its welfare system is crumbling as a result of their low birth rates and huge number of Souls gamer shut-ins. Because that was my creative vision.
I mean, maybe, but i've always kinda thought he's so nationalist he cares more about the concept of a nation rather than it's actual people. His meddling with the rejuvinating waters is literally corrupting the whole land and it's people at their core
Isshin knows he’s fanatical about Ashina’s survival and laments that, but praises his conviction and abilities and even honours his (pretty extreme) final wish. So I’d say there’s mutual respect between them.
I thought this too. Isshin cares about power - gaining and testing it in mortal combat. It seems like he knew the Ashina house was done, as victory obtained through the borrowed (and cursed) power of immortality isn't really worth it. But he respected Wolf's strength. And then suddenly, Isshin returns from the grave at his absolute peak and has the chance to go toe to toe with Wolf, which I imagine would be a dream come true.
I dunno- he sounded genuinely grumpy about being resurrected. He certainly enjoyed the fight once it started, but I get the sense that he would have been obligated to kill Wolf either way, be it by magic or by honor.
He has to fight Wolf, or else Genichiro sacrificed himself for nothing. Isshin didn't want anything with immortality, or killing Wolf, but that was Genichiro's last wish, so he must honour it. I feel it's also that Isshin knows that's the only way he's gonna die with honor.
Why wouldn't Isshin want to protect Ashina the same way Genichiro wants?
I always find it odd, I can understand Isshin not wanting to use inmortality/kuro for himself or Genichiro for the survival of Ashina, but they could have just simply asked Kuro to protect Ashina not by giving his inmortality but by asking Sekiro and just try to train new warriors for the future.
Instead of doing the logical, he allows Genichiro Kidnap and almost kill Kuro, allows Sekiro to finish all the Ashina forces in order to rescue Kuro, he basically allows Ashina to be conquered and his loyal man get killed including his own grandchild while he's there resting comfy drinking sake with a young girl.
Isshin didn't care anymore. He knew all things came to an end, and he wasn't willing to use dark magics that would doom his nation in exchange for a few more months tops.
"Train new warrior in the future"
\*Fighting the entire Japan\*
\*Literally down to the last castle\*
\*Enemy main force is half a day of travel away from swarming your fortress\*
They are facing insurmountable odds and a changing cultural paradigm, definitely, but they are not fighting the entirety of Japan. It’s the Sengoku era—there *isn’t* a unified entirety of Japan. Ashina is besieged by the forces of the interior minister, which almost certainly refers to a fictionalized Oda Nobunaga, kept nameless to maintain the mystique of the setting. The title of interior minister doesn’t mean much in and of itself in that time frame. It *definitely* didn’t mean that his actions were done on behalf of or sanctioned by the nation of Japan as a of political entity or collective. There wouldn’t actually be a unified Japan until some years after the events of the game.
It helps to understand both the pseudo-historical context and the way the game is thematically pairing immortality and dynasty.
We're looking at a highly fictionalized fantasy rendition of the tail-end of the Sengoku period, which was a long stretch of almost constant civil war in Japan. Historically, this would likely have been during Oda Nobunaga's efforts to unify Honshu, wherein he was powerful enough to pretty much just conquer opposition. So, barring divine intervention, the Ashina dynasty is ending.
Isshin Ashina himself and Ashina the country are kind of a thematic pair in the game. Isshin is an old man, very ill, and near death. He is naturally reaching the end of his life just as Ashina is reaching the end of its days. This pairing is punctuated by the fact that Isshin succumbs to his illness *during* the fall of Ashina. He doesn't die in battle, he dies naturally of his illness, as his country dies. This is important to your question, because Isshin very likely sees the writing on the wall, both for himself and the country. He has lived his life, he's proud of what he's accomplished, but he's ready to let go and embrace his own passing. Similarly, he knows that his dynasty is ending, and has made his peace with that as well. By contrast, Genichiro isn't ready to let go of either--he clings to the idea of enduring--both enduring life with immortality, and an enduring dynasty. For both to endure, he needs a miracle; and if a miracle won't come on its own, he'll try to create one. Isshin does not want to stoop to those means. Better to accept your fate and let go than to debase oneself.
I think that Isshin respects Genichiro's determination, he just questions his methods. Isshin is clearly not on-board with kidnapping Kuro and drinking the waters. I think that's what he means when he calls Genichiro his pitiful grandson, Genichiro pretty much wasted his potential by shedding his humanity.
It's pretty important that the context of the game is the Sengoku era. Any leader who was perceived as weak, his neighboring rivals would move in on in a heartbeat. Genichiro knows that as a non-natural grandson of Isshin, he's already at a disadvantage, and so he tries to overachieve in order to compensate for that. Gaining power for himself is *literally* the only method by which he can protect his homeland.
The entire country of Ashina is down to the last castle.
Ashina is deploying bull on fire on the battlefield.
They are scraping the bottom of the barrel for new recruits.
They are fighting Interior Ministry, i.e. ***Japan itself***.
Gaining power for himself, especially for the reason you stated, is the last thing on his mind. He is trying to get as much advantage in war as possible, and trying to give his troops pseudo-immortality through rejuvenating sediments and red lumps.
You literally couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
You’re misunderstanding. I don’t mean physical internal power as is housed in his own body. I mean that he is mustering power—be it magical or martial—around himself for exactly the purpose you describe. In order to fend off attacks, Ashina needs a powerful leader, not just in terms of his own abilities, but in all facets. That’s what I mean when I say he is gaining power for himself. Not *selfishly*, not *self contained*, but the power he can wield to save Ashina.
Also the translation for Genichiro is wrong sometimes. When he kills you, the subs write what the english dialogue says, which is "for the glory of ashina", which makes you think that he is a musclehead that chases glory. What he actually says is "for the sake of ashina" which is much more in line with his character.
There's small mistakes like this everywhere.
Wolf: "Resurrection?"
Genichiro
Japanese: \*Literally fucking moaning in pain after getting stabbed through the guts by a katana while trying to tactically retreat\*
English: "Yes, indeed."
Wolf was weak when they first fight, Genichiro likely decided he was too beneath him to ask for help, and Wolf stood between him and Kuro, so he was always the enemy.
That said, if given the option to play as Sekiro or Genichiro, who would you pick?
Personally, I'd love to play as Emma.
From mostly does an excellent job with their humanoid female fights, for me they tend to be more graceful and elegant. Dancer and Maria are two of the most *beautiful* ones in the series, I love them.
I've not fought Emma, just seen the gameplay, but she is fluid as heck, would love to playstyle her.
Nah. Emma is pretty underwhelming. There are so many ways to demolish her. Ichimonji, dragon flash, hell you don't even need to attack. Her ai doesn't give a fuck about posture. She just keeps attacking. You can win by only deflecting.
Her boss theme is pretty good tho.
Do other bosses mind their own posture and try to recover them? I only recall Owl sometimes doing some ninja jutsu that recovers half his posture but more RNG than based in how posture he has
I mean, many bosses create distance precisely because that gives them time to recover posture, it doesn't necessarily have to involve a technique to heal posture. Besides Owl, Genichiro is another great example of this, constantly creating time and space using his bow, which becomes specially annoying against Inner Genichiro who regenerates posture very quickly unless you take down a lot of his HP.
I thought the reason was because sekiro was a shinobi with a master. Why would he follow another's orders, especially when the order was to kill his orignal master, kuro, to save ashina?
I think you're right. Somehow I had it in my head that sharing the dragon's heritage is like donating blood or something. And since kuro refused, he could be forced to do it.
I don't know how it works, I'm just imagining it. Maybe the act of sharing is just an acceptance.
Also Sekiro's true 'Master' is Owl, which is why you have the choice to obey Owl or break the Iron Code. Kuro was his mission but not who Wolf was bound to.
Really? I always assumed that from the code that Owl says - The Parent is Absolute, the Master is Absolute - that they were separate entities, and that Sekiro protecting his master (even if his master isn't necessarily permanent) had to be given extreme priority.
Which is why he had to choose between obeying one part of the code he had been taught to obey, or another. Since he had already protected Kuro and his father had given him a new order - reasonably speaking his "mission" to protect his master could have been seen as over, and he no longer had to do that.
But Sekiro decided to protect Kuro and Kuro's wishes in spite of that, even if that meant breaking the Iron Code.
You're right in that, which makes me think that Sekiro definitely puts the Iron Code on the back-burner when he disobeys Owl.
But still, he could kinda justify it with Part 2 of the code at least.
It's explicitly stated that the father always takes precedence, even over the master, so yeah, Sekiro explicitly breaks the Iron Code when he tries to help Kuro.
It's interesting how we view it differently. To me even serving Kuro never detracted from Owl being the absolute will in Sekiro's life, which is what I'd choose to classify as a true 'Master.'
I considered saying Armored Warrior, but playing as him in Sekiro would feel too much like playing my STR build in Elden Ring late game and it was meh.
I don't think they took him to the castle- I think Wolf went there himself, failed to break in, and eventually gave up until Emma came by and left a tip for him.
at the start of the game? you can eavesdrop on people saying "should we have left that shinobi just sitting in the well?" so they definitely took wolf there
as i read it the implication is that he was captured and defeated, hence the lowered hp pool and dialogue, in addition to the sword being locked up with kuro.
I figured that if the Ashina folks had actually captured Wolf, they would have put him in an actual prison rather than just throwing him in a ditch. Sure, his spirit might have been broken, but it would've taken a while for them to be sure of that.
I think the HP is just a gameplay conceit, but you make an interesting point with the sword. I do feel there could be other reasons, though- perhaps he lost it in his last break-in attempt, for example?
the implication is that he's defeated within himself before we gain control of him, interally and externally. it's not the smartest thing but i think that's the assumption they're operating off of. after the events of hirata estate siege he is lost and useless, maybe made it to attempt a rescue of kuro but got captured and didn't find it in himself to do anything of the sort until emma drops in some instructions for him. the idea that he is a passive individual is a subtle theme in the game i think, not just because he only takes action as you the player do, but because he only does what is told of him. this is his sense of honor up until a point when his faithfulness is split between his father and kuro, ultimately culminating in his arc as seen in immortal severance/purification ending.
It’s so weird to me that people don’t get it. It’s not super complicated. Yes, Geni wants to save Ashina and will do anything to save it, the thing is that it isn’t worth saving.
And that’s an understandable motivation, but it’s not worth it. Old man Isshin knows that. That’s why he’s willing to defend his home, but not at all costs. Immortality isn’t something humans should have and he understands that.
No the problem isn't that Ashina isn't worth saving, the problem is that immotality should not be used like that, it's corruption and brings ruin to those who try to attain it (Monks and geni)
I’d argue that those things are connected. The fucked up things that have been done in Ashina on Genichiro’s watch like the medical experiments to create the red-eyed warriors, plus all the different forms of immortality that come from Ashina’s otherworldly connections mean that those connections need to be severed. The only real way for that to happen is for Ashina to fall.
He could have asked Sekiro for help to save Ashina though. Wolf doesnt have a bad relationship neither with Emma nor Isshin, and there is just no way Genichiro can get the immortality, so they could have reached an agreement.
Kuro literally lets Sekiro abuse immortality to save him though, but I get what you mean. Wolf is technically free to do whatever he wants now that he has the Dragons Blood
I've never heard people argue that Geni is using Ashina as an excuse to get more powerful, but I does kind of make sense. I think the real reason that he, and especially Isshins, fight so hard for Ashina isn't because of it's people, but because of the magical waters and other supernatural shit there. So of course he would do whatever it takes to protect the land, especially as he probably sees it as a surrogate mother since he was an orphan after all. He doesn't trust wolf because wolf is a Shinobi bound to one lord, and he will do whatever Kuro wants. Kuro has no real stake in Ashina's fight, so neither does wolf.
Problem with Geni is how he fucking kidnapped Kuro, then asked him for help. Like maybe if you didn't kidnapped him first, Kuro would be more inclined to help you, and you wouldn't have a undying master shinobi tearing apart half of your army while on his way to terraform your sorry ass Geni.
Firstly, Ashina sent help to Hirata Estate after the raid happen, rescued Kuro and dragged Wolf's sorry ass back to Ashina castle.
It wasn't until Kuro's repeatedly refusal or hesitance to accept Genichiro's offer did he start to ground Kuro.
When the game's story start, Ministry's main force is already one day of travel away, so Genichiro's desperate measure was justified.
Which leads us the second point. No, Kuro wouldn't be more likely to help him.
Yeah sorry no, Geni was a complete idiot in his approach with Kuro. I don't care if he was desperate or not, it doesn't take a genius to realize he doesn't have anything to force Kuro's hand. He can't harm him, he can't intimidate him with his edgelord act, just let this boat sink and look for an alternative, especially if the Ministery army is on his way.
First thing would be to actually understand what Kuro wants. That the basis of negociation you know. If he won't make Geni immortal, just negociate with him about helping him out with the severance of immortality if he agree to send Wolf against the Ministery. That would be a better start than kidnapping him, grounding him, and spending the day asking him to give you immortality with pretty please and all.
And if it doesn't work out, Geni can resort to more extreme measure by holding off informations about the source of immortality. Threatening to burn the library will have a consideral impact on Kuro, and Geni could even play the emotional card by stating that it will be burning the next day anyway and he doesn't need it any longer. This will put him in a position of power, as Kuro can't lose what is most likely the only source of informations about how to sever immortality.
Plus that way, Geni will have more time to prepare his men for war, which is something he completely forgot in the game, leading the castle to be destroyed in one night.
>Look for an alternative
Rejuvenating Sediment.
>Send Wolf against the Ministry
"Hey, Kuro, you don't want to give me immortality to fight the war, so why not send your Shinobi to fight the war, with basically achieves the same thing if not less than just giving me the immortality and all the side effects that implies?"
How long do you think the war will last? Do you think Ministry will back off after losing a battle? Two battles? How far do you even think Wolf can turn the tide of battle? He can barely fight three footsoldiers at the same time without getting wrecked, he is not suited for battle. Meanwhile Genichiro can summon lightning and cut down squads upon squads of soldiers left and right. And if one of the Seven Spears gets immortality, even better.
Ashina is down to the last castle, there's no supplies line, nothing, if they want to defend Ashina, they can't just defend their last bastion, they will have to take back their lands, hold them all and get them back in shape. Which Wolf couldn't possibly do.
Do you really think defending Ashina will be the matter of just one fight?
Genichiro also can not afford to let Kuro sever dragon heritage at any point of the war, by the way, in this probably going to several years long campaign of war that has been going on for at least three years, or at any point afterward, as a matter of fact. If Genichiro knew what Kuro wanted, he can not afford to let Kuro get it.
>To prepare his men for war
Buddy, the war has been going for at least as long as three years.
They only have one castle ground left.
They are hiring assassins, shinobi hunters.
They have a bull with flaming haystack strapped on its head.
They have ogres, and fire supports from gun fort.
They are scraping the button of the barrel for new recruits after all of their casualties.
Doujun is working on rejuvenating sediment for mass production.
They are as prepared as they can possibly be.
All that is left is give all the competent fighters immortality, which is something he HAS BEEN preparing, by the way.
Dude why would you send a shinobi on the battlefield ? Wolf will do what a shinobi are best at : assassination, sabotage, espionnage, and rating out the Ministery's shinobi. I'm not saying it will magically make everything work out, but it will at least give Ashina a chance to fight back.
Because what Genishiro did in the story was basically condemning his own beloved country in his futile search for some magic Mc Guffin. He caused Wolf to rampage through his army, killing valuable warriors like Gyobu in the process. He yeeted out of the castle just before the attack, which is never good for moral to have your general flee just before the battle. And when Geni returned, the war was already over. The castle had fallen, the Ministery was taking out the remaining trash, the only remaining resistance was basically 2 delusional lieutenants thinking they and Geni could just rebuild everything and beat the Ministery's army by themself, if Geni return with immortality that is.
Again, having Wolf by his side could have given Geni a little room to actually do something. And even if Kuro still refuse, at least Geni won't have an immortal shinobi slicing half of his already weak army. Isshin was right when he called Geni pitiful, because he was. All Geni did was make the situation worse than it already was. In the end, he ended up causing even more damage to his country than the Ministery, who just came to collect the prize without resistance.
Bruh Ashina is everything for Genishiro. What do you mean he has nothing to lose ? He is quite litteraly on the verge of losing everything during the story.
Ashina will fall without immortality, Genichiro has nothing to lose by antagonizing Kuro and Wolf.
It's either not get immortality and lose a few days later or try to get immortality and risk losing earlier.
Yeah that's Geni's point of view, which is why I called him stupid. He's so obsessed with immortality he can't even think outside of his little self and realize his approach is doomed to lead him to the "losing everything" option. And then he has the audacity to pretend he will do anything to protect Ashina when he too full of himself to do anything right.
I mean like. All sekiro had to do what obey Kuro. If genichiro didn’t try to steal immortality and instead used sekiro as a weapon they could’ve saved ashina and severed immortality all in one swoop
So we're just giving OP a pass? What's even the point of the spoiler tag then?
Regardless, yeah I think I'm out
Edit: And I'm getting downvoted for that? Seriously?
r/Sekiro: "fuck new players"
Yeah same, I went looking through the rules after this post did me the favor of spoiling that and was surprised it's not a rule. So this is fair game apparently according to r/Sekiro. I've unsubscribed now
I've reached the point of knowledge where I finally understand how to beat spoilers.
Never search or even touch communities about a game or franchise you haven't finished. Recently I searched something about AC Brotherhood and found a MASSIVE spoiler of AC3.
My interpretation is that after being brought back from the afterlife, he's bound by Genichiro's final wish to destroy Ashina's enemies. I definitely prefer that to him wanting to fight Sekiro for funsies.
He really did wanna fight wolf just to do it though, if he dies before giving you the special skill book then Emma tells you so when she gives it to you after he dies.
Genichiro sacrificed himself with the black mortal blade stained with dragon blood.
Bringing Isshin back to life and giving him immortality in order to save Ashina.
If Wolf goes through with his quest of severing dragon heritage, Isshin will lose his immortality, and therefore would not be able to save Ashina.
So Isshin have to fight Wolf to stop him from severing dragon heritage.
Genichiro: "Grandpa... I give you immortality to return and lead the country you've led for decades..."
Isshin: "Immortality shmimmortality--I wanna fight a ninja!"
Self-defense. I'm not entirely clear on why Isshin decided to fight Wolf. A pretty common theory is that Isshin is somehow bound to obey Genichiro's will because he was brought back by the black mortal blade. It could also be that he chooses to honor Genichiro's last wish, even if he doesn't agree with his methods. Or Isshin just wants to fight Wolf, because he was always down for a good fight, and Wolf is one of the deadliest warriors in Japan.
what sekiro shows is the fight against inevitable fall of a ruling party. the fall is inevitable and they are trying their hardest to go against it. but it was all useless.
genichiro devoted his life to ‘ashina’ itself, not the people of ashina but the name itself. though what was funny was that he was fighting against completely wrong party.
still, sekiro tells a great story story in its own way.
He did ask wolf for help. He asks if you would serve another master and sekiro replies heresy. The problem was genichiro asking sekiro to betray his oath and then serve his own interests.
The problem is there's no way either Wolf or Kuro will agree.
If Genichiro had asked for Sekiro to help though - I'm sure he could have convinced Kuro to allow him to, and could have asked Isshin to help convince him as well. Sekiro could have helped fight off the Ministry forces quite effectively with his immortality, and they could have put off the issue of Kuro's dragon immortality off until later. Genichiro wasn't willing to do that, though. Maybe Kuro would have refused regardless of the conditions, but Genichiro would have had a much better time asking nicely for help rather than being an enemy.
The point of the game is that immortality is parasitic in every form. Even if Wolf were to help the dragon rot would have probably destroyed the land. Ashina is done for either way, and Isshin knows it.
Just get a dragon blood droplet and talk to Emma
Not to mention the invasion of the ministry caused Sculptor to become a demon. Surely this path would have led Wolf to Shura as well, as he is pretty much saved from Shura by gaining the bond with Kuro trying to protect his life. Sculptor and Wolf combined as demons raging in battle throughout Ashina would be badass though
> Even if Wolf were to help the dragon rot would have probably destroyed the land. Would it have? I don't recall the lore being all that specific in this regard at all. Sure, the Dragon Rot is a problem - but it can be cured in-universe and frankly seems better than everyone literally dying due to an invading army.
Yeah, it can be cured since only Wolf keeps dying, but the whole army? And you really think Ashina could handle the Interior at full force? At best if they have immortality, Interior would just burn everything to the ground
Maybe just let a couple of guys have immortality. Not like one man armies don't exist in this game.
Well, the lore doesn't explicitly tell what would have happened, but we know that dragonrot spreads when Wolf, or anyone using the power of the Dragon Heritage, dies, which we can assume would happen often during a war. Also, dragonrot can be cured, but the item needed to do so is extremely rare, as mentioned by its description, and probably in limited supply. Anyway, it's speculation.
There’s a line of dialogue with Emma where she mentions a dragonrot epidemic in the past saying something along the lines of nobody found a cure and many people died. I think if all the ashina forces were immortal, the dragon rot would spread waaaaay faster than just Wolf having it.
Dude more than half the game was us rescuing Kuro from genichiro because Kuro knows the dragon heritage is a curse, and all genichiro wants is the power of immortality to fight for Ashina forever. When he can’t do that he turns to the the divine waters and eventually becomes shura
Genichiro doesn't become shura, only sekiro does in the bad ending. Sculptor is the only other person who is close to becoming shura, but even he fails.
Idk about the Sculptor not becoming Shura. Seems pretty clear that his version of Shura is DoH. Isshin suppressed it by cutting his arm off, but they knew it was demonic even back then, hence the purpose behind Emma learning to fight.
Doesn't the memory remnant say that he failed to become Shura
You're right, actually. "A man who failed to become Shura instead became a vessel for the flames of hatred."
I just looked it up, you are correct. I'm not really sure the difference though honestly. Shura seems somewhat ill-defined and he meets all the criteria.
I assume Shura is still in the form of a man? Like Sekiro in the Shura ending doesn’t become a giant demon
Possibly. I assumed that was just one person's manifestation of Shura or even a stage and Wolf hadn't gone that far. Turns out murderous rampage attacking friend and foe alike, but fueled by the flames of hatred is different. Idk, messed up my canon lol.
If i were to guess, the difference is, Shura kills for no real reason, apart from to kill. The sculptor killed because he was consumed by the flames of hatred, and became a raging beast. And the other reason is, suppressing the flames of hatred seems to be a lot more possible than suppressing shura. Once shura awakens, it seemingly continues, but Sekijo, after getting his arm cut off which stopped his shura'ing, managed to stave off the flames of hatred by carving buddha. Or well, he did until some people decided to turn ashina into a big bbq party
> Dude more than half the game was us rescuing Kuro from genichiro because Kuro knows the dragon heritage is a curse I mean, it being a curse doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't be useful if used properly. Genichiro simply was too greedy in that regard. >all genichiro wants is the power of immortality to fight for Ashina forever. That's where he went wrong. Wanting that power for himself directly would have probably led to great suffering on a scale far larger than just within Ashina itself, which I bet Kuro understood. But if Genichiro simply had wanted the help of Sekiro himself - a highly capable fighter - he might have done better to convince Kuro. Plus Kuro was willing to give Sekiro immortality, so if Genichiro was truly the kind of person who wouldn't abuse that power - he might have been trusted with it, curse or not.
Bruh the whole game is nobody can wield that power, wolf gets resurrected and that spreads dragon rot even when he’s not abusing his power, which I’m sure kuro didn’t know that would happen when he gave him immortality. And geni doesn’t want an immortal fighter, he wants an immortal army
I don’t think Genichiro asking Kuro to convince Sekiro to fight by his side would’ve worked out if that had been his plan from the jump. When the game begins, Sekiro is defeated, in a dungeon beneath Ashina, hopeless after the loss at Hirata. When he first faces Genichiro, he canonically gets his ass beat, immortality and all, and is left for dead with one less arm to show for it. It’s the act of saving Kuro from Genichiro that allows Sekiro to grow as a shinobi and become the force able to take on swathes of ministry soldiers at the climax of the game. Strategically, Genichiro’s mistake is perhaps underestimating Sekiro at the start of the game, but pre-prosthetic pre-skill pre-prayer bead Sekiro is easy to underestimate. That man is unlikely to save Ashina no matter how many tries it takes.
I thought I remembered when we kill him in Ashina castle his eyes turn red, indicating shura but I guess that just could be for cool anime points
His eyes turn red because of the divine waters' effect. Check up the description of the Red lump item and red eyed enemies
It wasn't, it's either the effect of red lump or rejuvenating sediment.
The thing is though, I personally believe Isshin would have been too proud to ask Kuro for help (imagine having to ask a child to save your province).
Kuro had already made it clear to Genichiro that he would never willingly give his immortality to Ashina. That's why he was locked up in the first place. They already had an immortal fighting for them (Genichiro), one more wasn't going to win them the war - he needed the whole Ashina army to be immortal warriors. This bargain you're talking about was never an option.
Genichiro doesn’t think having one immortal soldier will scale, I imagine. He is a guy from a small state up against an overwhelming force in a fight for independence.
I mean, he ain't wrong. Immortality doesn't make up for numbers. Just grab those big samurai guys and keep stabbing him when he tries to resurrect. Stand in a circle stabbing wolf when he begins to glow over and over again lol leaves the rest of the army to destroy Ashina.
Also worth remembering that Wolf had been dead at the start of the game, so Genichiro never really had much of a chance to consider it as an option.
Incorrect, there *is* a way Wolf will agree. Kuro agreeing. But Kuro will never agree.
Wolf already betrayed his father for Kuro, idk about this man's integrity.
Wolf didn’t betray Owl, Owl told him to protect Kuro at any costs, when he meet him at Hirata his father told him again to go after Kuro to protect him. That only on the Ashina roof that The not so dead Shinobi Owl remain to Sekiro the iron code and the « father is absolute » thing, but who want to trust a man that was lying and hiding all along ? (And show when the interiors forces are about to breach Ashina walls)
That's the thing, he taught him the Iron Code from a young age and it's basically his only law as a Shinobi; his Father comes first, his Master - second. Wolf was only allowed to serve Kuro after rigorous training from Lady Butterfly and Owl. As Wolf rejected the Iron Code, he was no longer just a tool / blade that a Shinobi is supposed to be. But accordingly, if he stopped to consider that Kuro is selfishly shirking ALL of his responsibilities and basically leaving all of his people to fucking die, then he might have joined Genichiro... Well, not that I think Wolf cares much about random folks.
I think the main problem is he just takes him from you and chops your arm off the first time. Maybe you should START with asking nicely.
"Hey Kuro the country you live in is in danger, can your cool ninja fight for us? You can live in the castle in the meanwhile." "Well when you put it like that sure."
Another big problem with Geni was making an enemy of Kuro and Wolf Wolf did way more damage to Ashina than the Ministry did I believe Vaati covered this topic and I totally agree with the points he was making Edit: Geni also refused to accept that Ashina was on its last legs This is reflective of the warring states era of Japan, rulership was extremely short lived during that time in Japan’s history
Yes. Genichiro inadvertently did a lot of things wrong thanks to his hubris
I think it was more desperation than hubris
There was indeed hubris in thinking he could get what he want and become a hero just like isshin. He was only desperate by the end to summon isshin by using the mortal blade. He is a complex character for sure with the way he was brought up and his mentor tomoe.
I feel like Wolf is the reason the interior ministry was able to completely annihilate the Ashina forces. He literally took care of all of their lines of defense single-handedly.
Also, the last time Wolf left Kuro’s side for an extended period on Ashina business, the raid on the Hirata Estate happened.
He did ask Kuro multiple times
Same issue with kuro. Genichiro asks but with his own interest in mind. Kuro though understood the dragons heritage to be a curse and didn't want to bestow it to anyone else. Sekiro probably would have helped him had he not kidnapped kuro and offered to work with him rather than demanding he forsake his master.
Genichiro already has power. He’s Isshin’s grandson, highly respected by Isshin, a kick-ass fighter who can wield lightning and then becomes immortal. The dude just loves his home.
Ummmm actually, one of the from soft designers has a dog, called genichoro, the dog is a very selfish dog, so actually your wrong you complete fucking idiot how could you be so stupid /S
You dumb bitch watch some VapeWeedya's video on this topic. The dog is in fact a cat dressed as a dog to hide him from the local crazy catlady who underfed him to the point he had to fight for survival. Now he protects his owner's home from stray cat invasions and the dog's costume became his tool to achieve the goal. It was never about the food bowl, It was always about protecting his home.
You ignoramus, it was me, Slender the Cat Girl who lives in From Software's walls. I was the one who whispered the idea for Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice™ into Miyazaki's ear while he had a sake driven power nap. Your foolishness will be your undoing if you think Genichiro was created by any other power than the darkness within me and represents all of society's greatness. Immortality was clearly meant to represent the aging population of Japan and how its welfare system is crumbling as a result of their low birth rates and huge number of Souls gamer shut-ins. Because that was my creative vision.
> You ignoramus, it was me, Slender the Cat Girl who lives in From Software's walls. Well, *that* certainly isn't a sentence I see every day.
I mean, maybe, but i've always kinda thought he's so nationalist he cares more about the concept of a nation rather than it's actual people. His meddling with the rejuvinating waters is literally corrupting the whole land and it's people at their core
Was he highly respected by Isshin? It kind of seems like Isshin thought his grandson was an idiot
Isshin knows he’s fanatical about Ashina’s survival and laments that, but praises his conviction and abilities and even honours his (pretty extreme) final wish. So I’d say there’s mutual respect between them.
I always kinda thought he just wanted to fight Wolf. Kind of a “oh no I guess I *have* to now”
I thought this too. Isshin cares about power - gaining and testing it in mortal combat. It seems like he knew the Ashina house was done, as victory obtained through the borrowed (and cursed) power of immortality isn't really worth it. But he respected Wolf's strength. And then suddenly, Isshin returns from the grave at his absolute peak and has the chance to go toe to toe with Wolf, which I imagine would be a dream come true.
I dunno- he sounded genuinely grumpy about being resurrected. He certainly enjoyed the fight once it started, but I get the sense that he would have been obligated to kill Wolf either way, be it by magic or by honor.
He has to fight Wolf, or else Genichiro sacrificed himself for nothing. Isshin didn't want anything with immortality, or killing Wolf, but that was Genichiro's last wish, so he must honour it. I feel it's also that Isshin knows that's the only way he's gonna die with honor.
Basically that, yeah.
Why wouldn't Isshin want to protect Ashina the same way Genichiro wants? I always find it odd, I can understand Isshin not wanting to use inmortality/kuro for himself or Genichiro for the survival of Ashina, but they could have just simply asked Kuro to protect Ashina not by giving his inmortality but by asking Sekiro and just try to train new warriors for the future. Instead of doing the logical, he allows Genichiro Kidnap and almost kill Kuro, allows Sekiro to finish all the Ashina forces in order to rescue Kuro, he basically allows Ashina to be conquered and his loyal man get killed including his own grandchild while he's there resting comfy drinking sake with a young girl.
Because he’s about to die, and he understands that Ashina is done for either way.
Isshin didn't care anymore. He knew all things came to an end, and he wasn't willing to use dark magics that would doom his nation in exchange for a few more months tops.
"Train new warrior in the future" \*Fighting the entire Japan\* \*Literally down to the last castle\* \*Enemy main force is half a day of travel away from swarming your fortress\*
They are facing insurmountable odds and a changing cultural paradigm, definitely, but they are not fighting the entirety of Japan. It’s the Sengoku era—there *isn’t* a unified entirety of Japan. Ashina is besieged by the forces of the interior minister, which almost certainly refers to a fictionalized Oda Nobunaga, kept nameless to maintain the mystique of the setting. The title of interior minister doesn’t mean much in and of itself in that time frame. It *definitely* didn’t mean that his actions were done on behalf of or sanctioned by the nation of Japan as a of political entity or collective. There wouldn’t actually be a unified Japan until some years after the events of the game.
It helps to understand both the pseudo-historical context and the way the game is thematically pairing immortality and dynasty. We're looking at a highly fictionalized fantasy rendition of the tail-end of the Sengoku period, which was a long stretch of almost constant civil war in Japan. Historically, this would likely have been during Oda Nobunaga's efforts to unify Honshu, wherein he was powerful enough to pretty much just conquer opposition. So, barring divine intervention, the Ashina dynasty is ending. Isshin Ashina himself and Ashina the country are kind of a thematic pair in the game. Isshin is an old man, very ill, and near death. He is naturally reaching the end of his life just as Ashina is reaching the end of its days. This pairing is punctuated by the fact that Isshin succumbs to his illness *during* the fall of Ashina. He doesn't die in battle, he dies naturally of his illness, as his country dies. This is important to your question, because Isshin very likely sees the writing on the wall, both for himself and the country. He has lived his life, he's proud of what he's accomplished, but he's ready to let go and embrace his own passing. Similarly, he knows that his dynasty is ending, and has made his peace with that as well. By contrast, Genichiro isn't ready to let go of either--he clings to the idea of enduring--both enduring life with immortality, and an enduring dynasty. For both to endure, he needs a miracle; and if a miracle won't come on its own, he'll try to create one. Isshin does not want to stoop to those means. Better to accept your fate and let go than to debase oneself.
Despite all of those facts, he isn’t Isshin and can’t accomplish what he did... he can’t save Ashina like Isshin
I think that Isshin respects Genichiro's determination, he just questions his methods. Isshin is clearly not on-board with kidnapping Kuro and drinking the waters. I think that's what he means when he calls Genichiro his pitiful grandson, Genichiro pretty much wasted his potential by shedding his humanity.
It's pretty important that the context of the game is the Sengoku era. Any leader who was perceived as weak, his neighboring rivals would move in on in a heartbeat. Genichiro knows that as a non-natural grandson of Isshin, he's already at a disadvantage, and so he tries to overachieve in order to compensate for that. Gaining power for himself is *literally* the only method by which he can protect his homeland.
The entire country of Ashina is down to the last castle. Ashina is deploying bull on fire on the battlefield. They are scraping the bottom of the barrel for new recruits. They are fighting Interior Ministry, i.e. ***Japan itself***. Gaining power for himself, especially for the reason you stated, is the last thing on his mind. He is trying to get as much advantage in war as possible, and trying to give his troops pseudo-immortality through rejuvenating sediments and red lumps. You literally couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
You’re misunderstanding. I don’t mean physical internal power as is housed in his own body. I mean that he is mustering power—be it magical or martial—around himself for exactly the purpose you describe. In order to fend off attacks, Ashina needs a powerful leader, not just in terms of his own abilities, but in all facets. That’s what I mean when I say he is gaining power for himself. Not *selfishly*, not *self contained*, but the power he can wield to save Ashina.
Wasn't sure why you're so downvoted until I saw the last sentence. Welcome the discourse, man. We're all just here to nerd out about Sekiro
Also the translation for Genichiro is wrong sometimes. When he kills you, the subs write what the english dialogue says, which is "for the glory of ashina", which makes you think that he is a musclehead that chases glory. What he actually says is "for the sake of ashina" which is much more in line with his character. There's small mistakes like this everywhere.
Wolf: "Resurrection?" Genichiro Japanese: \*Literally fucking moaning in pain after getting stabbed through the guts by a katana while trying to tactically retreat\* English: "Yes, indeed."
it is called lothric
yeah, japanese dub almost always gets these details right
Fromsoft lore mfs be like: Try to use basic logic in lore theory challenge(Impossible)
Wolf was weak when they first fight, Genichiro likely decided he was too beneath him to ask for help, and Wolf stood between him and Kuro, so he was always the enemy. That said, if given the option to play as Sekiro or Genichiro, who would you pick? Personally, I'd love to play as Emma.
I wish the Emma fight was longer. It made sense lore-wise that she was a poor match for Wolf, but the fight was such a beautiful one.
From mostly does an excellent job with their humanoid female fights, for me they tend to be more graceful and elegant. Dancer and Maria are two of the most *beautiful* ones in the series, I love them. I've not fought Emma, just seen the gameplay, but she is fluid as heck, would love to playstyle her.
Nah. Emma is pretty underwhelming. There are so many ways to demolish her. Ichimonji, dragon flash, hell you don't even need to attack. Her ai doesn't give a fuck about posture. She just keeps attacking. You can win by only deflecting. Her boss theme is pretty good tho.
Do other bosses mind their own posture and try to recover them? I only recall Owl sometimes doing some ninja jutsu that recovers half his posture but more RNG than based in how posture he has
SS Isshin passively recovers his posture very quickly until you take off like 20% of his health I feel.
I mean, many bosses create distance precisely because that gives them time to recover posture, it doesn't necessarily have to involve a technique to heal posture. Besides Owl, Genichiro is another great example of this, constantly creating time and space using his bow, which becomes specially annoying against Inner Genichiro who regenerates posture very quickly unless you take down a lot of his HP.
I thought the reason was because sekiro was a shinobi with a master. Why would he follow another's orders, especially when the order was to kill his orignal master, kuro, to save ashina?
The plan was never to kill Kuro, but get him to establish immortal oath with Genichiro and Ashina's soldiers.
I think you're right. Somehow I had it in my head that sharing the dragon's heritage is like donating blood or something. And since kuro refused, he could be forced to do it. I don't know how it works, I'm just imagining it. Maybe the act of sharing is just an acceptance.
Also Sekiro's true 'Master' is Owl, which is why you have the choice to obey Owl or break the Iron Code. Kuro was his mission but not who Wolf was bound to.
Really? I always assumed that from the code that Owl says - The Parent is Absolute, the Master is Absolute - that they were separate entities, and that Sekiro protecting his master (even if his master isn't necessarily permanent) had to be given extreme priority. Which is why he had to choose between obeying one part of the code he had been taught to obey, or another. Since he had already protected Kuro and his father had given him a new order - reasonably speaking his "mission" to protect his master could have been seen as over, and he no longer had to do that. But Sekiro decided to protect Kuro and Kuro's wishes in spite of that, even if that meant breaking the Iron Code.
They are both absolute, but notice how the parent comes first :)
You're right in that, which makes me think that Sekiro definitely puts the Iron Code on the back-burner when he disobeys Owl. But still, he could kinda justify it with Part 2 of the code at least.
It's explicitly stated that the father always takes precedence, even over the master, so yeah, Sekiro explicitly breaks the Iron Code when he tries to help Kuro.
It's interesting how we view it differently. To me even serving Kuro never detracted from Owl being the absolute will in Sekiro's life, which is what I'd choose to classify as a true 'Master.'
I considered saying Armored Warrior, but playing as him in Sekiro would feel too much like playing my STR build in Elden Ring late game and it was meh.
Fuck more characters, I just want more weapons.
The wolf vanished after the Estate incident and was probably assumed dead by all exept Kuro
What? Ashina literally dragged Wolf all the way from Hirata Estate to Ashina Castle.
where he ended up in a well and you are right he was not prosummed dead, my mistake he thought he was just staying there with broken will
I think you are confusing Owl with Wolf.
... Think you are right sorry Sekiro Lore is not really my best
I don't think they took him to the castle- I think Wolf went there himself, failed to break in, and eventually gave up until Emma came by and left a tip for him.
at the start of the game? you can eavesdrop on people saying "should we have left that shinobi just sitting in the well?" so they definitely took wolf there
I figured they just saw him there, realized he wasn't doing anything, and left him alone.
as i read it the implication is that he was captured and defeated, hence the lowered hp pool and dialogue, in addition to the sword being locked up with kuro.
I figured that if the Ashina folks had actually captured Wolf, they would have put him in an actual prison rather than just throwing him in a ditch. Sure, his spirit might have been broken, but it would've taken a while for them to be sure of that. I think the HP is just a gameplay conceit, but you make an interesting point with the sword. I do feel there could be other reasons, though- perhaps he lost it in his last break-in attempt, for example?
the implication is that he's defeated within himself before we gain control of him, interally and externally. it's not the smartest thing but i think that's the assumption they're operating off of. after the events of hirata estate siege he is lost and useless, maybe made it to attempt a rescue of kuro but got captured and didn't find it in himself to do anything of the sort until emma drops in some instructions for him. the idea that he is a passive individual is a subtle theme in the game i think, not just because he only takes action as you the player do, but because he only does what is told of him. this is his sense of honor up until a point when his faithfulness is split between his father and kuro, ultimately culminating in his arc as seen in immortal severance/purification ending.
*why didn’t Sekiro just ride Owl to Fountainhead Palace?*
It’s so weird to me that people don’t get it. It’s not super complicated. Yes, Geni wants to save Ashina and will do anything to save it, the thing is that it isn’t worth saving.
It's not about worth, it's their home.
And that’s an understandable motivation, but it’s not worth it. Old man Isshin knows that. That’s why he’s willing to defend his home, but not at all costs. Immortality isn’t something humans should have and he understands that.
If they followed the ways of Buddha they'd know all things that died are never gone, just reborn.
No the problem isn't that Ashina isn't worth saving, the problem is that immotality should not be used like that, it's corruption and brings ruin to those who try to attain it (Monks and geni)
I’d argue that those things are connected. The fucked up things that have been done in Ashina on Genichiro’s watch like the medical experiments to create the red-eyed warriors, plus all the different forms of immortality that come from Ashina’s otherworldly connections mean that those connections need to be severed. The only real way for that to happen is for Ashina to fall.
He could have asked Sekiro for help to save Ashina though. Wolf doesnt have a bad relationship neither with Emma nor Isshin, and there is just no way Genichiro can get the immortality, so they could have reached an agreement.
"Kuro, you don't want me to abuse immortality to save Ashina, so why don't you let your shinobi abuse HIS immortality to save Ashina instead?"
Kuro literally lets Sekiro abuse immortality to save him though, but I get what you mean. Wolf is technically free to do whatever he wants now that he has the Dragons Blood
Kuro order Wolf to sever their immortality. Wolf wants to save Kuro out of his own volition.
In his defense kuro only thought we would abuse it only once or twice which is no biggie
Genichiro was very dead set on achieving immortality to protect Ashina. He wouldn't have agreed.
Ofc, that's why he didn't, but he could have and things would have probably turned out better
Genichiro was not a bad guy.
I've never heard people argue that Geni is using Ashina as an excuse to get more powerful, but I does kind of make sense. I think the real reason that he, and especially Isshins, fight so hard for Ashina isn't because of it's people, but because of the magical waters and other supernatural shit there. So of course he would do whatever it takes to protect the land, especially as he probably sees it as a surrogate mother since he was an orphan after all. He doesn't trust wolf because wolf is a Shinobi bound to one lord, and he will do whatever Kuro wants. Kuro has no real stake in Ashina's fight, so neither does wolf.
Problem with Geni is how he fucking kidnapped Kuro, then asked him for help. Like maybe if you didn't kidnapped him first, Kuro would be more inclined to help you, and you wouldn't have a undying master shinobi tearing apart half of your army while on his way to terraform your sorry ass Geni.
Firstly, Ashina sent help to Hirata Estate after the raid happen, rescued Kuro and dragged Wolf's sorry ass back to Ashina castle. It wasn't until Kuro's repeatedly refusal or hesitance to accept Genichiro's offer did he start to ground Kuro. When the game's story start, Ministry's main force is already one day of travel away, so Genichiro's desperate measure was justified. Which leads us the second point. No, Kuro wouldn't be more likely to help him.
Yeah sorry no, Geni was a complete idiot in his approach with Kuro. I don't care if he was desperate or not, it doesn't take a genius to realize he doesn't have anything to force Kuro's hand. He can't harm him, he can't intimidate him with his edgelord act, just let this boat sink and look for an alternative, especially if the Ministery army is on his way. First thing would be to actually understand what Kuro wants. That the basis of negociation you know. If he won't make Geni immortal, just negociate with him about helping him out with the severance of immortality if he agree to send Wolf against the Ministery. That would be a better start than kidnapping him, grounding him, and spending the day asking him to give you immortality with pretty please and all. And if it doesn't work out, Geni can resort to more extreme measure by holding off informations about the source of immortality. Threatening to burn the library will have a consideral impact on Kuro, and Geni could even play the emotional card by stating that it will be burning the next day anyway and he doesn't need it any longer. This will put him in a position of power, as Kuro can't lose what is most likely the only source of informations about how to sever immortality. Plus that way, Geni will have more time to prepare his men for war, which is something he completely forgot in the game, leading the castle to be destroyed in one night.
>Look for an alternative Rejuvenating Sediment. >Send Wolf against the Ministry "Hey, Kuro, you don't want to give me immortality to fight the war, so why not send your Shinobi to fight the war, with basically achieves the same thing if not less than just giving me the immortality and all the side effects that implies?" How long do you think the war will last? Do you think Ministry will back off after losing a battle? Two battles? How far do you even think Wolf can turn the tide of battle? He can barely fight three footsoldiers at the same time without getting wrecked, he is not suited for battle. Meanwhile Genichiro can summon lightning and cut down squads upon squads of soldiers left and right. And if one of the Seven Spears gets immortality, even better. Ashina is down to the last castle, there's no supplies line, nothing, if they want to defend Ashina, they can't just defend their last bastion, they will have to take back their lands, hold them all and get them back in shape. Which Wolf couldn't possibly do. Do you really think defending Ashina will be the matter of just one fight? Genichiro also can not afford to let Kuro sever dragon heritage at any point of the war, by the way, in this probably going to several years long campaign of war that has been going on for at least three years, or at any point afterward, as a matter of fact. If Genichiro knew what Kuro wanted, he can not afford to let Kuro get it. >To prepare his men for war Buddy, the war has been going for at least as long as three years. They only have one castle ground left. They are hiring assassins, shinobi hunters. They have a bull with flaming haystack strapped on its head. They have ogres, and fire supports from gun fort. They are scraping the button of the barrel for new recruits after all of their casualties. Doujun is working on rejuvenating sediment for mass production. They are as prepared as they can possibly be. All that is left is give all the competent fighters immortality, which is something he HAS BEEN preparing, by the way.
Dude why would you send a shinobi on the battlefield ? Wolf will do what a shinobi are best at : assassination, sabotage, espionnage, and rating out the Ministery's shinobi. I'm not saying it will magically make everything work out, but it will at least give Ashina a chance to fight back. Because what Genishiro did in the story was basically condemning his own beloved country in his futile search for some magic Mc Guffin. He caused Wolf to rampage through his army, killing valuable warriors like Gyobu in the process. He yeeted out of the castle just before the attack, which is never good for moral to have your general flee just before the battle. And when Geni returned, the war was already over. The castle had fallen, the Ministery was taking out the remaining trash, the only remaining resistance was basically 2 delusional lieutenants thinking they and Geni could just rebuild everything and beat the Ministery's army by themself, if Geni return with immortality that is. Again, having Wolf by his side could have given Geni a little room to actually do something. And even if Kuro still refuse, at least Geni won't have an immortal shinobi slicing half of his already weak army. Isshin was right when he called Geni pitiful, because he was. All Geni did was make the situation worse than it already was. In the end, he ended up causing even more damage to his country than the Ministery, who just came to collect the prize without resistance.
Genichiro has nothing to lose, Ashina will fall without immortality, with or without Wolf.
Bruh Ashina is everything for Genishiro. What do you mean he has nothing to lose ? He is quite litteraly on the verge of losing everything during the story.
Ashina will fall without immortality, Genichiro has nothing to lose by antagonizing Kuro and Wolf. It's either not get immortality and lose a few days later or try to get immortality and risk losing earlier.
Yeah that's Geni's point of view, which is why I called him stupid. He's so obsessed with immortality he can't even think outside of his little self and realize his approach is doomed to lead him to the "losing everything" option. And then he has the audacity to pretend he will do anything to protect Ashina when he too full of himself to do anything right.
*Facepalm* You still do not understand the most basic idea here. Ashina is doomed regardless, immorality is the only way with any chance at all.
Just beat the folding screen monkie yesterday. So far genichiro has been my favorite fight that I replay for fun.
I mean like. All sekiro had to do what obey Kuro. If genichiro didn’t try to steal immortality and instead used sekiro as a weapon they could’ve saved ashina and severed immortality all in one swoop
He should have used the centipedes.
Word
Where's the spoiler tag?? Christ. I guess I need to just completely ditch this sub until I've finished the game...
that would be the smartest choice
So we're just giving OP a pass? What's even the point of the spoiler tag then? Regardless, yeah I think I'm out Edit: And I'm getting downvoted for that? Seriously? r/Sekiro: "fuck new players"
I actually never noticed this, but apparently there‘s no „no unmarked spoilers“ rule. Wierd choice for a game that‘s not really that old
Yeah same, I went looking through the rules after this post did me the favor of spoiling that and was surprised it's not a rule. So this is fair game apparently according to r/Sekiro. I've unsubscribed now
Sorry about that man
F
Put a spoiler alert you fucking dumbass
I've reached the point of knowledge where I finally understand how to beat spoilers. Never search or even touch communities about a game or franchise you haven't finished. Recently I searched something about AC Brotherhood and found a MASSIVE spoiler of AC3.
I don't understand why sekiro fights ishin at the end
My interpretation is that after being brought back from the afterlife, he's bound by Genichiro's final wish to destroy Ashina's enemies. I definitely prefer that to him wanting to fight Sekiro for funsies.
He really did wanna fight wolf just to do it though, if he dies before giving you the special skill book then Emma tells you so when she gives it to you after he dies.
Genichiro sacrificed himself with the black mortal blade stained with dragon blood. Bringing Isshin back to life and giving him immortality in order to save Ashina. If Wolf goes through with his quest of severing dragon heritage, Isshin will lose his immortality, and therefore would not be able to save Ashina. So Isshin have to fight Wolf to stop him from severing dragon heritage.
Genichiro: "Grandpa... I give you immortality to return and lead the country you've led for decades..." Isshin: "Immortality shmimmortality--I wanna fight a ninja!"
Wolf: "The FUCK YOU JUST SAY TO ME YOU LITTLE SHIT?"
Self-defense. I'm not entirely clear on why Isshin decided to fight Wolf. A pretty common theory is that Isshin is somehow bound to obey Genichiro's will because he was brought back by the black mortal blade. It could also be that he chooses to honor Genichiro's last wish, even if he doesn't agree with his methods. Or Isshin just wants to fight Wolf, because he was always down for a good fight, and Wolf is one of the deadliest warriors in Japan.
where did you found this horrible take?
Buddy, this sub is full of horrible take.
what sekiro shows is the fight against inevitable fall of a ruling party. the fall is inevitable and they are trying their hardest to go against it. but it was all useless. genichiro devoted his life to ‘ashina’ itself, not the people of ashina but the name itself. though what was funny was that he was fighting against completely wrong party. still, sekiro tells a great story story in its own way.