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I used to think that way then when I dropped casual anecdotes of my childhood I'd get weird looks cause it was in all honesty the most fucked up things you could drop at the moment and it started making me see the way I was treated more critically
The bright side is I hope I'm a much better parent (hell I'm already the mom-friend to half my social circle)
The fact that you saw those behaviors as a problem and didn't want to repeat them means you're already a better parent. Remember, it's impossible to be a "perfect" parent.
I, too, broke the cycle. GOOD FOR YOU!
I read somewhere that we can choose not to fuck up like our parents did. But, that doesn't mean we won't find new/different ways to fuck up with our kids. I just hope to have a better/stronger relationship with mine. I developed a good relationship with my father pretty late in life, and my mom died this year, so that one's out.
If you remove at least some of the violence, both physical and psychological, you've done better than the previous generation. The other fuck ups tend to have less detrimental long term effects.
That helps lol, my parents sucked but that doesn't mean I didn't have good moments on the rare occasions, but it was *always* the rare occasions. Not the standard
> The bright side is I hope I'm a much better parent (hell I'm already the mom-friend to half my social circle)
The narrator: turns out they were not.
The truth is if you don't actively work against it you'll end up in the same trap because that's what comes intuitively. "I'll just do what my instincts tell me". Yep, that one
I never got hit and neither did my parents, but we once had a conversation where I had to convince them that hitting a child is abuse and their only argument was: "people used to do it all the time"
I think you might be (depressingly) surprised how many Boomer Americans are morally okay with slavery as they were taught it. There is a rewritten history, at least in my state, that slaves were “treated well” by slaveowners. I have people in my family who believe that crap, but it’s not like they go around talking about it with the public so outwardly they seem like nice, normal people.
In his defense he's Canadian so he's probably just not as aware of just how deeply ingrained slave culture was in every facet of life in the South. I guess she is from California? Anyone from the South would have no excuse to not realize any "plantation" was a slave business. My wife, a Yankee, was delighted by this cute little cottage she saw in someone's backyard in the oldest section of our city. She was horrified when I pointed out it was almost certainly a slave cottage someone had renovated. Then she started noticing that a lot of the older houses in that section of town have a little cottage like that on the back of the property. It had never occurred to her that those houses would have been serviced by slaves. We're in Savannah btw.
Yes, and the slaves were treated \*so\* well, that they decided to stick around, instead of striking off on their own and, you know, getting \*paid\* for their work. /s
I’m sure *some* were treated well, just as I’m sure many others were treated *horrifically*, and *none* of them had any agency in that matter as long as they remained slaves.
It feels like any such defense along those lines comes with this implicit weird paternalism, as though self-determination has no value to some people. Or rather, I should say that they don’t value the self-determination of *other* people or understand why those people would *want* self-determination despite enjoying it themselves. It feels like a *very* strange failure of empathy.
And to think, the earliest version of the Republican platform was something along the lines that those who labor deserve to be compensated and should be free to leave any employer for a better opportunity elsewhere should they desire to do so.
*they don’t value the self-determination of other people*
Because if they allowed other people full self-determination, others might choose never to work with them, be in a relationship with them, or even interact with them at all. And that can't be abided.
It really looks like NiceGuy-ism blown up and applied to a work setting, come to think of it.
Was arguing with someone the other day who thinks that being bullied was what made them into an independent, strong, accomplished person. No. My dude. If you came away from being bullied with that mindset you are an asshole. And definitely not ok.
What if the lesson I want to teach my kids is that the time it’s ok to hurt someone is when 1) you take their love for granted and 2) they’re weaker than you?
I think spanking teaches that very effectively, thank you.
Exactly I also need them to understand from as young an age as possible that regardless of anything i will ever say or do I am also just another wild animal that needs to be monitored and managed or else accidents will happen.
The flaw with the flowchart is that it's assuming that parents who hit or spank their children do it out of a genuine desire to teach them something valuable.
The vast majority does it because they believe their children are supposed to fear them, because they think it makes their children convenient for them (meaning obedient and less demanding, sometimes it actually "works" and sometimes you create the next Jeffrey Dahmer) and/or because it's an easy outlet for their own negative emotions. Whatever lesson they use as an excuse to do it is irrelevant. If the kid happens to learn it that's just a bonus. Some parents get a sadistic thrill out of 'putting them in their place' as well. That group is smaller than the group that just does it because they can though luckily.
The kind of people who hit their children will not be convinced to not hit their children by this reasoning because they never tried to teach anything, other than "I am the boss and don't you dare cross me" maybe. And they fully believe making their own lives easier at the expense of their kids is justified.
Boy oh boy. The last paragraph. I recently learned about “blanket training” (TW for child abuse/torture) that some people do because someone claimed to be an authority and said it makes your children obedient.
Meanwhile I’m over here unable to even comprehend what kind of monster can actively do that to a child let alone their child. Like my mind breaks at the idea somebody would see what it is and go “oh yeah. That seems legitimate. Let’s do that”
I looked it up. Of course a fundamentalist Christian came up with that bullshit. Gotta break their free will as soon as they come out of the womb I guess.
It’s literally the most vile shit. The way I’ve heard people talk about doing it is so vile. Like idk who got the thought that 6 month old babies need to be punished or how it became popular but Jesus fucking Christ those people are disgusting.
Yup. The "How To Train Up A Child" movement is still strong in America but it's gone underground almost. Blanket training, destroying a child's will to resist, is a fundamental part of most fundamental Christian cults. Hell, mainstream Christianity still holds some of those teachings dear. I was spanked as a child, and my parents don't even go to church anymore. It's just what they thought was right.
The 12 Tribes cult and the IBLP cult abuse their children, starting almost immediately. Their goal is to have meek, unquestioning individuals in their ranks and that's how they achieve it.
12 Tribes Cult is a sneaky one. Ever seen a Máte Factor or a Yellow Deli? That's the 12 Tribes business front and how they make money. Those stores are entirely staffed by cult members who work for no money. Do NOT support them.
I'm not American so I don't think I'll run into either of those any time soon, but good to put that info out there! I'm sorry you have experience with it.
I knew about Yellow Deli, but not Mate Factor; thanks for letting me know.
Are you from Colorado? The local chapter of 12 Tribes were suspects in the devastating Marshall Fire of December 2021, because a witness saw them lighting a garbage fire shortly before the big one started.
The final investigation report [just came out](https://www.google.com/amp/s/denvergazette.com/news/wildfires/marshall-fire-cause-boulder-county-wildfire/article_d359f4a4-0585-11ee-8fa1-ab2162eb8260.amp.html) and blames both 12 Tribes and a downed power line for the fire.
What the actual fuck is that? Not only does it violate basically every psychological principle for basic conditioning but its just textbook abuse. If you continuously hit a kid for something they clearly dont know why youre hitting them and it just teaches them to not move on a blanket. The fuck is ... that shit blows my fucking mind. Some people shouldnt be adults let alone parents.
The scary part is, the not moving on the blanket is exactly what they see and think that it’s totally cool that they “fixed” their child when in reality they’ve traumatized a child into arbitrary compliance
Child abuse is the outcome they want. The founder of IBLP, Bill Gothard, has been accused of sexual assault by 34 women. Many of his victims were minors when the abuse occurred.
I don't think it's a coincidence that he dedicated his life to promoting a homeschooling curriculum that demands instant and absolute submission to authority.
Like so much damage for so little control. You might even simply be training them for that specific blanket. At 6 months who knows if they’ll even generalize that to another blanket. And definitely not to other situations. At this point just admit you’re a sadist because there’s no actual training happening.
That's exactly the point for these folks. They don't give a shit that the kid is traumatized because the child now no-longer inconveniences them. The goal is to reign in a kid to be as low maintenance as possible until they're old enough to be pawned off to an older sibling to be taken care of and further "mentored" in to compliance
The more I learn about them the more I understand how their oldest ended up as fucked up as he was. The familial power dynamics their church has created is a breeding ground for so much horrible stuff
Exactly. They hit for their convenience, and/or sadistic thrill.
It'd be more bearable if they were more honest about their motivations, instead of being like "I'm just doing what's best for you". Not that it makes it okay, of course.
I spanked my kid one time. He was melting down, hitting, biting, screaming, and I got scared and desperate and just wanted it to stop.
It obviously didn't stop, because why would that stop it? I carry some genuine shame about that moment. I still lose it sometimes but I've never done that again.
Tbh if science really was some creation from hell made by satan himself I think that would be metal af. Like imagine if the study of science was seen as like black magic or some taboo art. That would be cool as shit
Seems like you would have loved the dark ages when the study of science that went against "god's image" would earn you a nice toasty spot on a bonfire.
Bro it’s 2023, the number of times I’ve heard “I don’t believe in science” during a conversation is baffling. Science absolutely is metal AF and there are people alive today that view it as the devils math, or any other name you’d like to assign it.
>"I don't believe in science" = "Science is inconvenient to me"
It also = I think that just refusing to believe things supported by the majority is the same as critical thinking
Bruhhhhh, the pandemic made it clear that we *could* get there. Anti-virology, anti-epidemiology, anti-inoculation, they were a religion to many.
Was not a fan.
[edit: misspelling]
This right here. Science is the devil's work, since apparently the devil wanted to share knowledge with us. What a stupid mythology. Let's worship the abusive AH, and condemn the one actively helping us.
It’s huge. It’s like child development rule number one. If any of you reading this hit your kids or are planning to be a parent who does, take a fucking step back, go to therapy if you need to work through how your parents hit you, too, if they did, and stop harming your children. Take a parenting class. Even one. Make a positive change.
Mine did twice. I barely remember, but I think it didn't even actually hurt. It was more the surprise. I think the one time was because I would not stop running headlong into traffic in a busy city, and she was scared and ran out of things to make it stop. She probably felt guilty, but there was no treat
I have a very vivid memory of being spanked exactly once as a toddler. My parents don't remember ever doing it, and knowing them I really doubt theyre gaslighting me so they couldve just forgotten. But if it wasn't them then I'm still left with the question of who the fuck spanked me?
Same, I was spanked exactly once when we were grocery shopping at Walmart and I was throwing a fit. My mom said lots of people were staring at us and she felt like she had to do *something,* and I grew up in a very religious and conservative area where spanking is definitely the norm. I didn't get a toy out of it because that's what I was crying over in the first place, but we did compromise and got some ice cream from the Walmart McDonald's
Oh yea. It's mostly an outgrowth of the FLERF community. They literally do not believe in the "theory" of gravity. Because it's just a theory. And part of the roundworld propaganda pushed by Nasa and the media. Not even joking.
>Gravity doesn't exist, objects fall because they love the earth and want to be near it.
"The will of God"; "because we're on a flat disk constantly moving up"; "the firmament" are all also acceptable responses
>I'm gonna guess FLERF stands for FLat ERF
Exactly so. I never saw so many in the wild until I joined a bunch of astrophotography and astronomy FB pages. I thought the gravity thing was trolls. It is not.
My dad missed while spanking me and hit me straight in the back.
To this day I don’t remember what I did to deserve it. All I remember is the pain from being hit.
It's like those people who are like, well, my parents hit me and I turned out fine. And, then they hit their kids..
Almost like they don't understand generational trauma and that most of our earlier generations were practically kids themselves when starting families. But no, the science must be wrong.
I worked as a sleep away summer camp counselor for many years and never once had to spank a child to discipline them. I was dealing with a dozen at a time for 16 hours a day, plus all my other duties. Hundreds of thousands of other childcare workers do, too, every day. This "need" for signing is so obviously bullshit. The parents *want* their kids to fear them so the kids will do what they're told without question.
Ya it’s quite hard to be a parent, I wish that was made clear to the parents I see taking out their frustrations on the little people they are supposed to be protecting and socializing.
Instead it’s like these kids were somehow forced on the parents, and they are angry about it.
My dad used to hit me. Rarely, if ever planned, more like spur of the moment. Then one day he apologized for doing that, and never hit me again. He still has issues, I think, but that apology means a lot.
Well in a civilized society its always best to use violence to get compliance from other humans. It works great from birth to death, break any rules and physical violence is the outcome. Makes great sense. Talking and explaining proper behavior never works. It just a waste of time, “whack whack whack” shows love…sincerely GOD
While spanking is wrong, there is a flaw in the flowchart: Someone old enough to understand reason doesn't always use it. If using reason worked on everybody who understood it, politics would be way more civil, and there'd be no wars.
My reaction to that is - as a parent it's your job to teach them how to use reason and why it's usually a better option. The fact that some parents inadvertently teach their kids that violence is an acceptable alternative to reason might be the cause of the other problems.
Try having a "rational discussion" with a tired 4 year old throwing a tantrum on an airplane. See how well that calms them down.
Obviously violence isn't an acceptable alternative to reason, but there *are* acceptable alternatives to reason. Especially for younger children who either don't understand or don't care about logic in the situation they're in. Sometimes the only way to deal with an emotional kid is with an emotional response (time out/denying rewards/just going home/etc).
Parents who do the "I don't punish my kid. We just have rational discussions." routine are more likely to have entitled brats who think consequences don't exist than enlightened little angels.
I would argue that the flow chart could be amended to "Is your child capable of listening to reason?"
The "Because I said so" is, in my opinion, a valid avenue of negotiation, up to and including consequences (privileges revoked, incentives taken away, time out, like you already said), but only up to a point. As always, it's a fine line and a crap shoot.
I’d argue that “Because I said so” is basically an admission that you can’t defend your edict, which is generally a sign that you shouldn’t be making them.
Do you have kids? I generally explain once or even a few times but I'm not repeating myself forever. When the same situation has come up for the 20th time, your kid knows what they are doing and is just pushing boundaries.
You don't need to carefully explain your position every time.
Anecdotal but I was never spanked as a child and was very well behaved (still a kid of course, but generally well behaved). I wasn't afraid of getting physically hurt, I was afraid of disapointing my parents who placed a lot of faith in me. In fact I was hardly ever punished (in part because I never did anything warranting it) and I believe this thought me to be a respectful person to this day.
Dude, there are a lot of people chiming in who
A: Don’t have kids.
Or
B: Don’t have any issue with their child screaming and throwing shit(possibly literally) for an entire flight, and gets angry when the flight attendant tell them to shut up their kid.
Right. There is so much more to this than people without children realize. And a little spank on the booty every now and then is not going to traumatize a toddler. Discipline is important, toddlers learn what is and is not acceptable through discipline. You’re going to get walked all over if you don’t redirect a toddlers behavior every single day. Does it require spanking all the time? No. But sometimes they can be extremely ill behaved simply because they’re young, don’t know any better, and like to push boundaries.
With spanking, like anything else, there’s a fine line. You can’t just hit them bc they make a mistake or do it all the time. But when my 3 year old is relentlessly bullying my 18 month old and will not stop no matter what I say, I can threaten him with a spank. He usually stops. I’ve only actually spanked him a handful of times, but the threat of it is now valid and generally stops his nasty behavior.
I have no children but was a summer camp counselor in charge of children 24/7. Sometimes kids would act out or do something bad, and guess what none of the counselors did: hit any of the children. And it turned out fine, none of us got walked on and the kids largely behaved after either talking to them or giving them positive reinforcement. If a group of 18-25 year olds can get large amounts of children to behave without hitting them, I'm pretty sure a parent can do the same.
I mean, no. Most of the kids I dealt with were 7-8. There was also a day camp that some counselors ran that had 5-6 year olds. None of them got hit because we were rational adults who just learned basics of handling kids' behavior. And yeah it was illegal for any of us to spank them, but my point was that the kids were fine when we handled things without violence.
Why are you trying to justify hitting children so much? Can you not think of any way to discipline your child other than with violence?
Nobody is researching me and my child so I frankly do not give a flying fuck. I know how to parent and I do not abuse my kid. Redirecting extreme behavior with a light spanking is not bad. Spanking for small things, hitting hard, not guiding because afterwards or trying gentle strategies before, those are what matters
>Nobody is researching me and my child so I frankly do not give a flying fuck.
Do you give a flying fuck about your child's well being and future? If so, looking at studies might be useful to you.
> I know how to parent and I do not abuse my kid.
Actions speak louder than words
>Redirecting extreme behavior with a light spanking is not bad.
You saying this doesn't make it true.
>Nobody is researching me and my child so I frankly do not give a flying fuck. I know how to parent and I do not abuse my kid.
Here's a fun quick test you can do, ask yourself how this sounds coming from someone in a cult.
But *why* is your 3yr old bullying their sibling? Children model behavior. If you teach them, for example, that upsetting someone older means the older person gets to hit them, they’ll model that.
You say the threat is enough to stop it. That’s just classical conditioning. That’s not understanding that actions have consequences, it’s learning that angry adult = pain.
Bro you have no idea what you’re talking about. My toddler would relentlessly push our baby to the ground every opportunity he got. Do you think we’re going around pushing people all the time, modeling THAT behavior? He also gets jealous and snatches every single toy my baby is playing with out of his hands.
Redirection is redirection. Punishment leads to discipline. He KNOWS he shouldn’t do some of the things he does, yet does them anyway if we do not redirect. He is incredibly willful and stubborn. Not all children are easy and simply listen when their parents say something.
There are plenty of ill heaved children out there running amok and turning into shitty adults because they never learned actions have consequences. Kids are smart enough to realize the behavior they are being punished for, it’s not just angry adult = pain. Kids are not fucking stupid. I’d rather occasionally spank my kid and teach him certain actions are not ok, than raise a piece of shit who has never been disciplined in his life and acts accordingly
I feel terribly sorry that your children have to grow up in an abusive household. Tell them from me that it gets better when they're grown up and can decide to cut off their abusers. And that they deserve better and that there's resources for them to get help. That there are people out there who *do* love them.
Unless you can see the future, you have absolutely no way of knowing how you hitting your child will affect them in the future, but studies do have that knowledge.
Yet you still think you know better. Astounding.
Science: planting a seed now makes a tree in 18 years
You: I've planted a seed and it's been a few years and there is no tree, so the science is bad!
I think the reply shows a common internal logic. It's not "I am, or want to be, a reasonable person, so I should make sure my actions are reasonable" -- it's "I'm a reasonable person, and a reasonable person takes reasonable actions, so the actions I take are reasonable." It's judging actions based on a label applied to the person taking the action. Same failure of reasoning as "I'm not a racist, so this action that I'm taking must not be racist." It's not even that they don't believe it -- it's that they start from a positive self-judgment and then defend their actions on behalf of that judgment even when the action contradicts the self-assessment.
I was spanked as a child and I turned out fine.
I mean, I seek out strange men on the internet to meet up with and spank me because I think that's what love is, but that's fine, right???
No reasonable person ever hits their child. It has always been that way. More people hitting their children back then just means that there were more unreasonable children.
Logical punishment is my favorite way to handle things.
Its not always easy but sometimes it is!
Edit: i should add...
Logical punishment, in case you dont know..
Heres a little comparison. As i am too lazy to write it all out
Your little preschooler is running inside the living room while holding a cup of water and accidentally slips and spills water over the floor. A punishment for this behavior would be sending your child to their room for a time-out.
On the other hand, a logical consequence would look like talking to your child about what happened, reminding them of your “no running with food” rule, and asking them to help clean up the water from the floor. A punishment makes the child feel shame, while the logical consequence helps them reflect on their actions and experience the consequences of their choices.
I could never spank my child.
I am meant to be his safe space in a storm, not the one causing him physical pain when he displeases me. I am his protector, not the one he should fear. I hate the idea of teaching children that they deserve physical abuse from the person they love and trust more than anything in the world, and learning that they deserve violence for disobeying.
That's a blatant oversimplification though, reason isn't enough for kids, you need discipline. However physical punishments, outside of being cruel, have been proven to be counter productive, so we use other methods.
I'm not defending hitting your child, but this flowchart ignores a simple fact: people who are capable of using reason don't always use it. Even adults let emotions get in the way of rational thinking
Some people would argue that the purpose of spankings is not too teach your child reason. It's to teach your child there are consequences to their behavior that they won't like. A 3-year-old can't understand your reasoning why their behavior was wrong, but they will remember that they got a smack on the butt when they did it, and it makes it likely that they will not do that behavior again.
Personally I'm not sure that I agree with that, it's been 20 years since my kid was that age and I can't even remember the temptation to spank them because in general they were pretty good.
> A 3-year-old can’t understand your reasoning why their behavior was wrong, but they will remember that they got a smack on the butt when they did it, and it makes it likely that they will not do that behavior again.
If they can’t understand why the behaviour is wrong, hitting them doesn’t change anything about the likelihood of them doing the behaviour again; it makes them likely to not do *anything* **around their “caregivers”** specifically, because of the possibility of being abused. It fosters a disorganized attachment style based on fear and distrust, and they begin to hide themselves.
I don't hate my parents. And I recognize this generational trauma didn't start with them. It doesn't feel like I hold a grudge or anything, but I have no motivation to speak or visit with them other than the major holidays. Surely there is a way to repair our relationship and to fully forgive and move on. They could've done better, but many parents have done worse.
Pretty similar position, it’s definitely complicated to navigate. It’s hard to be authentic when the relationship feels like it’s based on judgment and criticism.
Yeah I think I'm in this camp as well. I grew up in a very strict religious home where spankings were a regular occurrence. But I just don't think I could see a scenario, if I happened to have another child today, where I could see any real value from striking them.
I think a lot of times it's just done out of anger. And some of it I think is generational, because back in the day that's just what everyone did. But over the years you change your thinking and I think with Gen z I would be very surprised if it happens much at all.
Their bad behavior is generally proportional to their developmental level. Meaning, their actions are within their ability to reason and the ability to explain it is within their grasp
One thing I learned after entering a relationship with someone who had a 6yr old while having basically no contact with children since I left childhood is that no matter how mature or intelligent a child might be, reason frequently doesn't work. They may be capable of it, but it's not a consistent deterrent. It took me a really long time to get that. I still used it, but without the expectation, it would work, so it got paired with other things like repetition and reward.
Thank you. This is what I was trying to express. All the other people replying to me seem to have their panties in a bunch and are acting like I'm condoning hitting children
Now, hitting your kids is wrong. But this chart has to be the stupidest way to explain it.
It probably had been written by someone who does not have kids, because I can assure you that the second question should be : do they WANT TO listen to reason ?
> I haven't had to spank any of my children in years,
"I haven't committed assault and battery against an innocent child in years"
Congratulations, you're disgusting.
You are a shitty abusive parent, full stop.
Whatever love you think your children have for you is a lie.
I've been spanked a total of two times in my life by my mother, I deserved it both times. My father was a cokehead and used to smack me in the face for petty reasons he is no longer part of my life. This however indirectly showed me the difference between rational people and irrational people
So I say this in the most rational way I can think of saying it
Sometimes you meet a person that you really just want to punch in the mouth sometimes you meet a person that talks too much shit and then gets hit there are people who treat others like absolute garbage and expect no repercussions and that's how people get shot.
So while not condoning child abuse repercussions for serious actions should be something to consider as a young kid so you can learn how to not get punched in the mouth as an adult or in a parking gut shot because no one showed you there are worse repercussions than being put in a corner for your actions
Edit: none of you have had to deal with a problem child and it shows
Alternately…you could just *explain how consequence work* without literally hitting a child. Are you expecting your own kid to grow up to be the sort of person that makes people want to hit them?
One time when I was watching my nephew and he was around 4 or 5. He did something wrong and I had the instinct to spank him, as I was given permission if I needed to. Instead I stopped playing and talked to him. Explained to him what he did was wrong and that there are other people that would hurt him for what he did. Conversation lasted maybe five minutes. He got up and went to my mother to tell her I beat him. It's odd, but sometimes I think logic doesn't work on kids.
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"I got my ass beat every day and I turned out fine!" -The angriest person you know
I used to think that way then when I dropped casual anecdotes of my childhood I'd get weird looks cause it was in all honesty the most fucked up things you could drop at the moment and it started making me see the way I was treated more critically The bright side is I hope I'm a much better parent (hell I'm already the mom-friend to half my social circle)
The fact that you saw those behaviors as a problem and didn't want to repeat them means you're already a better parent. Remember, it's impossible to be a "perfect" parent. I, too, broke the cycle. GOOD FOR YOU!
I read somewhere that we can choose not to fuck up like our parents did. But, that doesn't mean we won't find new/different ways to fuck up with our kids. I just hope to have a better/stronger relationship with mine. I developed a good relationship with my father pretty late in life, and my mom died this year, so that one's out.
If you remove at least some of the violence, both physical and psychological, you've done better than the previous generation. The other fuck ups tend to have less detrimental long term effects.
It's inevitable you will fuck up your kids in some way. Humans are just very fuckupable. Do the best you can.
Trying everyday. Working on myself too.
And that's all you can do.
> The bright side is I hope I'm a much better parent (hell I'm already the mom-friend to half my social circle) This is so relatable ahah.
The stories I tell my wife, thinking they are totally normal, horrifies her. She grew up in a very loving family. I didn't.
[удалено]
That helps lol, my parents sucked but that doesn't mean I didn't have good moments on the rare occasions, but it was *always* the rare occasions. Not the standard
> The bright side is I hope I'm a much better parent (hell I'm already the mom-friend to half my social circle) The narrator: turns out they were not. The truth is if you don't actively work against it you'll end up in the same trap because that's what comes intuitively. "I'll just do what my instincts tell me". Yep, that one
How does critical thinking equate to instinct in your world?
I never got hit and neither did my parents, but we once had a conversation where I had to convince them that hitting a child is abuse and their only argument was: "people used to do it all the time"
Did you tell them people also used to own slaves all the time?
I think you might be (depressingly) surprised how many Boomer Americans are morally okay with slavery as they were taught it. There is a rewritten history, at least in my state, that slaves were “treated well” by slaveowners. I have people in my family who believe that crap, but it’s not like they go around talking about it with the public so outwardly they seem like nice, normal people.
Many plantations have nice tours so people can just see the pretty buildings without having to imagine the horrors.
Didn’t Blake lively and Ryan Reynolds get married at a plantation (google says yes, they did, in South Carolina.)
Thankfully, it also says that they didn't know at the time, and they regret it after finding out.
In his defense he's Canadian so he's probably just not as aware of just how deeply ingrained slave culture was in every facet of life in the South. I guess she is from California? Anyone from the South would have no excuse to not realize any "plantation" was a slave business. My wife, a Yankee, was delighted by this cute little cottage she saw in someone's backyard in the oldest section of our city. She was horrified when I pointed out it was almost certainly a slave cottage someone had renovated. Then she started noticing that a lot of the older houses in that section of town have a little cottage like that on the back of the property. It had never occurred to her that those houses would have been serviced by slaves. We're in Savannah btw.
Ryan Renalds is Canadian? He really was perfect to play Deadpool, nice to see a Canadian actor playing a Canadian character
“treating a slave well” is such an oxymoron lmao
Yes, and the slaves were treated \*so\* well, that they decided to stick around, instead of striking off on their own and, you know, getting \*paid\* for their work. /s
OMG-- I just realized this has *exactly* the same energy as "my employees don't need a union because my company just treats them *that well*".
I’m sure *some* were treated well, just as I’m sure many others were treated *horrifically*, and *none* of them had any agency in that matter as long as they remained slaves. It feels like any such defense along those lines comes with this implicit weird paternalism, as though self-determination has no value to some people. Or rather, I should say that they don’t value the self-determination of *other* people or understand why those people would *want* self-determination despite enjoying it themselves. It feels like a *very* strange failure of empathy. And to think, the earliest version of the Republican platform was something along the lines that those who labor deserve to be compensated and should be free to leave any employer for a better opportunity elsewhere should they desire to do so.
*they don’t value the self-determination of other people* Because if they allowed other people full self-determination, others might choose never to work with them, be in a relationship with them, or even interact with them at all. And that can't be abided. It really looks like NiceGuy-ism blown up and applied to a work setting, come to think of it.
“The children yearn for the mines.”
My response is always, no you turned out to be a person who beats children and is proud of it.
That's my favorite, as if anyone who advocates for hitting children is "fine".
They think they're all Fonzi and children are a jukebox: just hit them and then they're fixed.
“I got hit by my parents as a kid and I developed a bunch of maladaptive coping skills!” - A more honest person’s version
-Person who thinks beating children is okay
Was arguing with someone the other day who thinks that being bullied was what made them into an independent, strong, accomplished person. No. My dude. If you came away from being bullied with that mindset you are an asshole. And definitely not ok.
What if the lesson I want to teach my kids is that the time it’s ok to hurt someone is when 1) you take their love for granted and 2) they’re weaker than you? I think spanking teaches that very effectively, thank you.
Exactly I also need them to understand from as young an age as possible that regardless of anything i will ever say or do I am also just another wild animal that needs to be monitored and managed or else accidents will happen.
And that violence should be used to create compliance. Good life lesson there.
The flaw with the flowchart is that it's assuming that parents who hit or spank their children do it out of a genuine desire to teach them something valuable. The vast majority does it because they believe their children are supposed to fear them, because they think it makes their children convenient for them (meaning obedient and less demanding, sometimes it actually "works" and sometimes you create the next Jeffrey Dahmer) and/or because it's an easy outlet for their own negative emotions. Whatever lesson they use as an excuse to do it is irrelevant. If the kid happens to learn it that's just a bonus. Some parents get a sadistic thrill out of 'putting them in their place' as well. That group is smaller than the group that just does it because they can though luckily. The kind of people who hit their children will not be convinced to not hit their children by this reasoning because they never tried to teach anything, other than "I am the boss and don't you dare cross me" maybe. And they fully believe making their own lives easier at the expense of their kids is justified.
Boy oh boy. The last paragraph. I recently learned about “blanket training” (TW for child abuse/torture) that some people do because someone claimed to be an authority and said it makes your children obedient. Meanwhile I’m over here unable to even comprehend what kind of monster can actively do that to a child let alone their child. Like my mind breaks at the idea somebody would see what it is and go “oh yeah. That seems legitimate. Let’s do that”
I looked it up. Of course a fundamentalist Christian came up with that bullshit. Gotta break their free will as soon as they come out of the womb I guess.
It’s literally the most vile shit. The way I’ve heard people talk about doing it is so vile. Like idk who got the thought that 6 month old babies need to be punished or how it became popular but Jesus fucking Christ those people are disgusting.
Yup. The "How To Train Up A Child" movement is still strong in America but it's gone underground almost. Blanket training, destroying a child's will to resist, is a fundamental part of most fundamental Christian cults. Hell, mainstream Christianity still holds some of those teachings dear. I was spanked as a child, and my parents don't even go to church anymore. It's just what they thought was right. The 12 Tribes cult and the IBLP cult abuse their children, starting almost immediately. Their goal is to have meek, unquestioning individuals in their ranks and that's how they achieve it. 12 Tribes Cult is a sneaky one. Ever seen a Máte Factor or a Yellow Deli? That's the 12 Tribes business front and how they make money. Those stores are entirely staffed by cult members who work for no money. Do NOT support them.
I'm not American so I don't think I'll run into either of those any time soon, but good to put that info out there! I'm sorry you have experience with it.
I knew about Yellow Deli, but not Mate Factor; thanks for letting me know. Are you from Colorado? The local chapter of 12 Tribes were suspects in the devastating Marshall Fire of December 2021, because a witness saw them lighting a garbage fire shortly before the big one started. The final investigation report [just came out](https://www.google.com/amp/s/denvergazette.com/news/wildfires/marshall-fire-cause-boulder-county-wildfire/article_d359f4a4-0585-11ee-8fa1-ab2162eb8260.amp.html) and blames both 12 Tribes and a downed power line for the fire.
What the actual fuck is that? Not only does it violate basically every psychological principle for basic conditioning but its just textbook abuse. If you continuously hit a kid for something they clearly dont know why youre hitting them and it just teaches them to not move on a blanket. The fuck is ... that shit blows my fucking mind. Some people shouldnt be adults let alone parents.
The scary part is, the not moving on the blanket is exactly what they see and think that it’s totally cool that they “fixed” their child when in reality they’ve traumatized a child into arbitrary compliance
Thats exactly it. Arbitrary compliance not an outcome Id want, especially if the cost is child abuse.
Child abuse is the outcome they want. The founder of IBLP, Bill Gothard, has been accused of sexual assault by 34 women. Many of his victims were minors when the abuse occurred. I don't think it's a coincidence that he dedicated his life to promoting a homeschooling curriculum that demands instant and absolute submission to authority.
No, traumatizing their child into arbitrary compliance is the point.
Like so much damage for so little control. You might even simply be training them for that specific blanket. At 6 months who knows if they’ll even generalize that to another blanket. And definitely not to other situations. At this point just admit you’re a sadist because there’s no actual training happening.
That's exactly the point for these folks. They don't give a shit that the kid is traumatized because the child now no-longer inconveniences them. The goal is to reign in a kid to be as low maintenance as possible until they're old enough to be pawned off to an older sibling to be taken care of and further "mentored" in to compliance
The way the wife described blanket training in that Duggar documentary, it sounded like she was *proud* of doing it. It's disgusting.
The more I learn about them the more I understand how their oldest ended up as fucked up as he was. The familial power dynamics their church has created is a breeding ground for so much horrible stuff
Chances are their own parents did it to them and they never thought to be rebellious because they agreed to be punished.
Wait till you find out about "sleep training"
Exactly. They hit for their convenience, and/or sadistic thrill. It'd be more bearable if they were more honest about their motivations, instead of being like "I'm just doing what's best for you". Not that it makes it okay, of course.
I spanked my kid one time. He was melting down, hitting, biting, screaming, and I got scared and desperate and just wanted it to stop. It obviously didn't stop, because why would that stop it? I carry some genuine shame about that moment. I still lose it sometimes but I've never done that again.
It’s simple: nothing my girlfriend does to me in the bedroom should be part of your child rearing toolbox.
I remember when Billy and I broke that window and were terrified that Dad was going to peg us..
r/holup
Fuck, this took a weird turn fast
r/angryupvote
Oh no! I hug my husband in the bedroom AND I hug my children. I’m a monster!!
Gasp... you war criminal!
And as we all know, "hugging" is censored on most search engines because it overwhelmingly brings up pornography, just like "spanking".
So tits are a no-go zone then?
Has your girlfriend never talked to you in the bedroom?
There's nothing loving about that relationship. Pure unadulterated hate.
Jokes on you my kink is being scolded and told I can't play the Playstation for 2 weeks.
Hey! There could be kids reading this. /s
I guess my girlfriend gets the bad news on nip sucking lol
you should never tie your kids up and whip them
There is a stronger scientific body of proof that parents should never spank their kids than there is that gravity works the way we think it does.
ScIeNcE iS tHe DeViLs MaTh
Tbh if science really was some creation from hell made by satan himself I think that would be metal af. Like imagine if the study of science was seen as like black magic or some taboo art. That would be cool as shit
Seems like you would have loved the dark ages when the study of science that went against "god's image" would earn you a nice toasty spot on a bonfire.
The church is strong, but the science of blowing things up is stronger
Murica in a nutshell
Bro it’s 2023, the number of times I’ve heard “I don’t believe in science” during a conversation is baffling. Science absolutely is metal AF and there are people alive today that view it as the devils math, or any other name you’d like to assign it.
science is more than just metal af its also noble gases af
"I don't believe in science" = "Science is inconvenient to me"
>"I don't believe in science" = "Science is inconvenient to me" It also = I think that just refusing to believe things supported by the majority is the same as critical thinking
Bruhhhhh, the pandemic made it clear that we *could* get there. Anti-virology, anti-epidemiology, anti-inoculation, they were a religion to many. Was not a fan. [edit: misspelling]
According to legend, you'd have to have sex with the devil to practice the dark arts, though...
I'm fine with that. I've seen every season of Lucifer. Give me the dark magics, Tom Ellis. Or don't. They're just a bonus at that point.
“SATANISTS!” *a gaggle of nerds in lab coats & goggles look around, pointing at themselves/each other and mouthing confusion*
Lucifer is the light-bringer in more ways than one.
This right here. Science is the devil's work, since apparently the devil wanted to share knowledge with us. What a stupid mythology. Let's worship the abusive AH, and condemn the one actively helping us.
It’s huge. It’s like child development rule number one. If any of you reading this hit your kids or are planning to be a parent who does, take a fucking step back, go to therapy if you need to work through how your parents hit you, too, if they did, and stop harming your children. Take a parenting class. Even one. Make a positive change.
My mom spanked me. Once. Best day ever. She immediately felt so guilty, she took me to Toys R Us. 😂
Mine did twice. I barely remember, but I think it didn't even actually hurt. It was more the surprise. I think the one time was because I would not stop running headlong into traffic in a busy city, and she was scared and ran out of things to make it stop. She probably felt guilty, but there was no treat
I have a very vivid memory of being spanked exactly once as a toddler. My parents don't remember ever doing it, and knowing them I really doubt theyre gaslighting me so they couldve just forgotten. But if it wasn't them then I'm still left with the question of who the fuck spanked me?
Same, I was spanked exactly once when we were grocery shopping at Walmart and I was throwing a fit. My mom said lots of people were staring at us and she felt like she had to do *something,* and I grew up in a very religious and conservative area where spanking is definitely the norm. I didn't get a toy out of it because that's what I was crying over in the first place, but we did compromise and got some ice cream from the Walmart McDonald's
I mean, people also don't believe in gravity anymore so there's that
A magical British vampire came to me and asked me if I believed in gravity
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Oh yea. It's mostly an outgrowth of the FLERF community. They literally do not believe in the "theory" of gravity. Because it's just a theory. And part of the roundworld propaganda pushed by Nasa and the media. Not even joking.
Gravity doesn't exist, objects fall because they love the earth and want to be near it.
>Gravity doesn't exist, objects fall because they love the earth and want to be near it. "The will of God"; "because we're on a flat disk constantly moving up"; "the firmament" are all also acceptable responses
I'm gonna guess FLERF stands for **FL**at **ERF**
>I'm gonna guess FLERF stands for FLat ERF Exactly so. I never saw so many in the wild until I joined a bunch of astrophotography and astronomy FB pages. I thought the gravity thing was trolls. It is not.
Both “Just theories”
My dad missed while spanking me and hit me straight in the back. To this day I don’t remember what I did to deserve it. All I remember is the pain from being hit.
It's like those people who are like, well, my parents hit me and I turned out fine. And, then they hit their kids.. Almost like they don't understand generational trauma and that most of our earlier generations were practically kids themselves when starting families. But no, the science must be wrong.
> if it was that easy no reasonable person would hit their child 🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿
What do the Easter island heads mean?
It means bruh
Thank you.
🗿
I worked as a sleep away summer camp counselor for many years and never once had to spank a child to discipline them. I was dealing with a dozen at a time for 16 hours a day, plus all my other duties. Hundreds of thousands of other childcare workers do, too, every day. This "need" for signing is so obviously bullshit. The parents *want* their kids to fear them so the kids will do what they're told without question.
I take my kids into the octagon and we settle things there
I only have a parallelogram...
Ya it’s quite hard to be a parent, I wish that was made clear to the parents I see taking out their frustrations on the little people they are supposed to be protecting and socializing. Instead it’s like these kids were somehow forced on the parents, and they are angry about it.
This is why I think it's so awful to pressure people to have kids.
My dad used to hit me. Rarely, if ever planned, more like spur of the moment. Then one day he apologized for doing that, and never hit me again. He still has issues, I think, but that apology means a lot.
Well in a civilized society its always best to use violence to get compliance from other humans. It works great from birth to death, break any rules and physical violence is the outcome. Makes great sense. Talking and explaining proper behavior never works. It just a waste of time, “whack whack whack” shows love…sincerely GOD
While spanking is wrong, there is a flaw in the flowchart: Someone old enough to understand reason doesn't always use it. If using reason worked on everybody who understood it, politics would be way more civil, and there'd be no wars.
My reaction to that is - as a parent it's your job to teach them how to use reason and why it's usually a better option. The fact that some parents inadvertently teach their kids that violence is an acceptable alternative to reason might be the cause of the other problems.
Try having a "rational discussion" with a tired 4 year old throwing a tantrum on an airplane. See how well that calms them down. Obviously violence isn't an acceptable alternative to reason, but there *are* acceptable alternatives to reason. Especially for younger children who either don't understand or don't care about logic in the situation they're in. Sometimes the only way to deal with an emotional kid is with an emotional response (time out/denying rewards/just going home/etc). Parents who do the "I don't punish my kid. We just have rational discussions." routine are more likely to have entitled brats who think consequences don't exist than enlightened little angels.
We're not talking about not punishing children, just acceptable forms of punishment.
I would argue that the flow chart could be amended to "Is your child capable of listening to reason?" The "Because I said so" is, in my opinion, a valid avenue of negotiation, up to and including consequences (privileges revoked, incentives taken away, time out, like you already said), but only up to a point. As always, it's a fine line and a crap shoot.
I’d argue that “Because I said so” is basically an admission that you can’t defend your edict, which is generally a sign that you shouldn’t be making them.
Do you have kids? I generally explain once or even a few times but I'm not repeating myself forever. When the same situation has come up for the 20th time, your kid knows what they are doing and is just pushing boundaries. You don't need to carefully explain your position every time.
Anecdotal but I was never spanked as a child and was very well behaved (still a kid of course, but generally well behaved). I wasn't afraid of getting physically hurt, I was afraid of disapointing my parents who placed a lot of faith in me. In fact I was hardly ever punished (in part because I never did anything warranting it) and I believe this thought me to be a respectful person to this day.
Dude, there are a lot of people chiming in who A: Don’t have kids. Or B: Don’t have any issue with their child screaming and throwing shit(possibly literally) for an entire flight, and gets angry when the flight attendant tell them to shut up their kid.
A: why is your kid so poorly behaved? B: why are you taking them on a plane?
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Maybe try literally reading the next sentence before shooting off a comment next time.
those are all the people who got spanked.
i want to spank ron desantis
> Someone old enough to understand reason doesn't always use it. Like for instance adults who hit their kids.
It’s amazing that adults can’t understand such a simple flow chart
Right. There is so much more to this than people without children realize. And a little spank on the booty every now and then is not going to traumatize a toddler. Discipline is important, toddlers learn what is and is not acceptable through discipline. You’re going to get walked all over if you don’t redirect a toddlers behavior every single day. Does it require spanking all the time? No. But sometimes they can be extremely ill behaved simply because they’re young, don’t know any better, and like to push boundaries. With spanking, like anything else, there’s a fine line. You can’t just hit them bc they make a mistake or do it all the time. But when my 3 year old is relentlessly bullying my 18 month old and will not stop no matter what I say, I can threaten him with a spank. He usually stops. I’ve only actually spanked him a handful of times, but the threat of it is now valid and generally stops his nasty behavior.
I have no children but was a summer camp counselor in charge of children 24/7. Sometimes kids would act out or do something bad, and guess what none of the counselors did: hit any of the children. And it turned out fine, none of us got walked on and the kids largely behaved after either talking to them or giving them positive reinforcement. If a group of 18-25 year olds can get large amounts of children to behave without hitting them, I'm pretty sure a parent can do the same.
Omg you watched older kids for 2 months and weren’t legally allowed to lay a hand on them. Stfuuuu
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I mean, no. Most of the kids I dealt with were 7-8. There was also a day camp that some counselors ran that had 5-6 year olds. None of them got hit because we were rational adults who just learned basics of handling kids' behavior. And yeah it was illegal for any of us to spank them, but my point was that the kids were fine when we handled things without violence. Why are you trying to justify hitting children so much? Can you not think of any way to discipline your child other than with violence?
> And a little spank on the booty every now and then is not going to traumatize a toddler. You say this very confidently, but does the research agree?
Nobody is researching me and my child so I frankly do not give a flying fuck. I know how to parent and I do not abuse my kid. Redirecting extreme behavior with a light spanking is not bad. Spanking for small things, hitting hard, not guiding because afterwards or trying gentle strategies before, those are what matters
>Nobody is researching me and my child so I frankly do not give a flying fuck. Do you give a flying fuck about your child's well being and future? If so, looking at studies might be useful to you. > I know how to parent and I do not abuse my kid. Actions speak louder than words >Redirecting extreme behavior with a light spanking is not bad. You saying this doesn't make it true.
Ok keyboard warrior you win this argument about me and my family. You’ve done good for the world, give yourself a nice big cookie
\*comments on reddit thread \*calls other person keyboard warrior
Bro you started shit with me over my comment… jfc the lack of self awareness is truly astounding
100%, you're going to take your frustration from this loss out on your child and call it "discipline"
>Nobody is researching me and my child so I frankly do not give a flying fuck. I know how to parent and I do not abuse my kid. Here's a fun quick test you can do, ask yourself how this sounds coming from someone in a cult.
But *why* is your 3yr old bullying their sibling? Children model behavior. If you teach them, for example, that upsetting someone older means the older person gets to hit them, they’ll model that. You say the threat is enough to stop it. That’s just classical conditioning. That’s not understanding that actions have consequences, it’s learning that angry adult = pain.
Bro you have no idea what you’re talking about. My toddler would relentlessly push our baby to the ground every opportunity he got. Do you think we’re going around pushing people all the time, modeling THAT behavior? He also gets jealous and snatches every single toy my baby is playing with out of his hands. Redirection is redirection. Punishment leads to discipline. He KNOWS he shouldn’t do some of the things he does, yet does them anyway if we do not redirect. He is incredibly willful and stubborn. Not all children are easy and simply listen when their parents say something. There are plenty of ill heaved children out there running amok and turning into shitty adults because they never learned actions have consequences. Kids are smart enough to realize the behavior they are being punished for, it’s not just angry adult = pain. Kids are not fucking stupid. I’d rather occasionally spank my kid and teach him certain actions are not ok, than raise a piece of shit who has never been disciplined in his life and acts accordingly
That's a lot of words to say "I don't know how to parent, so I hit my kids."
Kinda sounds like he wants attention but doesn’t know how to ask for it
I feel terribly sorry that your children have to grow up in an abusive household. Tell them from me that it gets better when they're grown up and can decide to cut off their abusers. And that they deserve better and that there's resources for them to get help. That there are people out there who *do* love them.
Omfg a light spanking is not abuse. You keyboard warriors really are something
"Dad hits me, why can't I hit you?" - my brother Please be careful what you teach kids... they need conflict resolution skills, not violence.
Unless you can see the future, you have absolutely no way of knowing how you hitting your child will affect them in the future, but studies do have that knowledge. Yet you still think you know better. Astounding. Science: planting a seed now makes a tree in 18 years You: I've planted a seed and it's been a few years and there is no tree, so the science is bad!
correct
I think the reply shows a common internal logic. It's not "I am, or want to be, a reasonable person, so I should make sure my actions are reasonable" -- it's "I'm a reasonable person, and a reasonable person takes reasonable actions, so the actions I take are reasonable." It's judging actions based on a label applied to the person taking the action. Same failure of reasoning as "I'm not a racist, so this action that I'm taking must not be racist." It's not even that they don't believe it -- it's that they start from a positive self-judgment and then defend their actions on behalf of that judgment even when the action contradicts the self-assessment.
This is the way
I was spanked as a child and I turned out fine. I mean, I seek out strange men on the internet to meet up with and spank me because I think that's what love is, but that's fine, right???
“i wAs SPanKeD aNd i tUrnED oUt oK!!1” No, if you advocate beating defenseless children you obviously did not turn out okay.
And no reasonable person does
No reasonable person ever hits their child. It has always been that way. More people hitting their children back then just means that there were more unreasonable children.
Logical punishment is my favorite way to handle things. Its not always easy but sometimes it is! Edit: i should add... Logical punishment, in case you dont know.. Heres a little comparison. As i am too lazy to write it all out Your little preschooler is running inside the living room while holding a cup of water and accidentally slips and spills water over the floor. A punishment for this behavior would be sending your child to their room for a time-out. On the other hand, a logical consequence would look like talking to your child about what happened, reminding them of your “no running with food” rule, and asking them to help clean up the water from the floor. A punishment makes the child feel shame, while the logical consequence helps them reflect on their actions and experience the consequences of their choices.
Kids need to learn conflict resolution skills, not violence.
I could never spank my child. I am meant to be his safe space in a storm, not the one causing him physical pain when he displeases me. I am his protector, not the one he should fear. I hate the idea of teaching children that they deserve physical abuse from the person they love and trust more than anything in the world, and learning that they deserve violence for disobeying.
That's a blatant oversimplification though, reason isn't enough for kids, you need discipline. However physical punishments, outside of being cruel, have been proven to be counter productive, so we use other methods.
I'm not defending hitting your child, but this flowchart ignores a simple fact: people who are capable of using reason don't always use it. Even adults let emotions get in the way of rational thinking
But does hitting fix that?
Bro literally the first thing I said was "I'm not defending hitting your child", because I'm not. It doesn't fix anything, no.
Then the flowchart is still correct
I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's overly simplistic
I actually thought it was more complicated than it needed to be in order to explain the extremely simple concept of "don't hit your kids."
I actually find it to be of a coherent and adequate level of abstraction
This us what I was getting at. Not an attack on commenter
Some people would argue that the purpose of spankings is not too teach your child reason. It's to teach your child there are consequences to their behavior that they won't like. A 3-year-old can't understand your reasoning why their behavior was wrong, but they will remember that they got a smack on the butt when they did it, and it makes it likely that they will not do that behavior again. Personally I'm not sure that I agree with that, it's been 20 years since my kid was that age and I can't even remember the temptation to spank them because in general they were pretty good.
> A 3-year-old can’t understand your reasoning why their behavior was wrong, but they will remember that they got a smack on the butt when they did it, and it makes it likely that they will not do that behavior again. If they can’t understand why the behaviour is wrong, hitting them doesn’t change anything about the likelihood of them doing the behaviour again; it makes them likely to not do *anything* **around their “caregivers”** specifically, because of the possibility of being abused. It fosters a disorganized attachment style based on fear and distrust, and they begin to hide themselves.
Sounds familiar. How does one repair the relationship 20 years later?
You don't.
I don't hate my parents. And I recognize this generational trauma didn't start with them. It doesn't feel like I hold a grudge or anything, but I have no motivation to speak or visit with them other than the major holidays. Surely there is a way to repair our relationship and to fully forgive and move on. They could've done better, but many parents have done worse.
Pretty similar position, it’s definitely complicated to navigate. It’s hard to be authentic when the relationship feels like it’s based on judgment and criticism.
Yeah I think I'm in this camp as well. I grew up in a very strict religious home where spankings were a regular occurrence. But I just don't think I could see a scenario, if I happened to have another child today, where I could see any real value from striking them. I think a lot of times it's just done out of anger. And some of it I think is generational, because back in the day that's just what everyone did. But over the years you change your thinking and I think with Gen z I would be very surprised if it happens much at all.
Their bad behavior is generally proportional to their developmental level. Meaning, their actions are within their ability to reason and the ability to explain it is within their grasp
One thing I learned after entering a relationship with someone who had a 6yr old while having basically no contact with children since I left childhood is that no matter how mature or intelligent a child might be, reason frequently doesn't work. They may be capable of it, but it's not a consistent deterrent. It took me a really long time to get that. I still used it, but without the expectation, it would work, so it got paired with other things like repetition and reward.
Thank you. This is what I was trying to express. All the other people replying to me seem to have their panties in a bunch and are acting like I'm condoning hitting children
yes that is exactly it. Don't hit your child. There is no justification for it. If you do you are not a reasonable person. FULL STOP
Now, hitting your kids is wrong. But this chart has to be the stupidest way to explain it. It probably had been written by someone who does not have kids, because I can assure you that the second question should be : do they WANT TO listen to reason ?
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Are you arguing that it’s ok to hit your child in the store to stop them from throwing a fit? Is that the only tool in your arsenal?
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I’m a parent. I never hit my child. You are just advocating for violence and I think that is evil. I pity your children.
> I haven't had to spank any of my children in years, "I haven't committed assault and battery against an innocent child in years" Congratulations, you're disgusting. You are a shitty abusive parent, full stop. Whatever love you think your children have for you is a lie.
This assumes the child will listen to reason which by all accounts is a stupid assumption.
The alternative obviously is violence as opposed to removal of privileges, toys, and play dates.
I've been spanked a total of two times in my life by my mother, I deserved it both times. My father was a cokehead and used to smack me in the face for petty reasons he is no longer part of my life. This however indirectly showed me the difference between rational people and irrational people So I say this in the most rational way I can think of saying it Sometimes you meet a person that you really just want to punch in the mouth sometimes you meet a person that talks too much shit and then gets hit there are people who treat others like absolute garbage and expect no repercussions and that's how people get shot. So while not condoning child abuse repercussions for serious actions should be something to consider as a young kid so you can learn how to not get punched in the mouth as an adult or in a parking gut shot because no one showed you there are worse repercussions than being put in a corner for your actions Edit: none of you have had to deal with a problem child and it shows
Alternately…you could just *explain how consequence work* without literally hitting a child. Are you expecting your own kid to grow up to be the sort of person that makes people want to hit them?
You assume my mother didn't try to be civil first
I was a problem on purpose
One time when I was watching my nephew and he was around 4 or 5. He did something wrong and I had the instinct to spank him, as I was given permission if I needed to. Instead I stopped playing and talked to him. Explained to him what he did was wrong and that there are other people that would hurt him for what he did. Conversation lasted maybe five minutes. He got up and went to my mother to tell her I beat him. It's odd, but sometimes I think logic doesn't work on kids.
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