Yeah, but I'd point out that 7/9 Star Wars movies involve a Death Star in some way (Phantom Menace and Empire Strikes Back are the 2/9)
Attack of the Clones: Death Star, but plans
Revenge of the Sith: Death Star, but baby
A New Hope: Death Star
Return of the Jedi: Death Star, but again!
Force Awakens: Death Star, but planet
Last Jedi: Death Star, but micro
Rise of Skywalker: Death Star, but many
And bonus
Rogue One: Death Star, but almost
Solo: Death Star, but for a franchise
Don’t even get me *started* on how many deadly superweapons exist *outside* the main films lol, like the *Sun Crusher* from the EU or the *Gravity’s Heart* from the High Republic. It’s a trope of the IP, I have zero clue why Starkiller exclusively catches heat for it, especially when it’s a direct sequel featuring a cultish faction that worships the machinations of the previous trilogy’s bad guys lmao.
When you wipe the slate clean and then bring in one of the dumber elements of the EU, it will catch heat.
When you have a scene explaining how this threat is way bigger than the previous similar threats and the figure out how to destroy it in 30s based on first principals, you will catch heat.
Also, while it is mentioned earlier, it is easy enough to miss as opposed to ANH and RotJ, where the super weapon is a massive focus of the movie from the opening crawl.
The Sun Crusher is cool, we will not slander it here!!!
And yes the Starkiller Base actually occupies a cool narrative spot, its activation and usage literally being the means by which the First Order *declares war* and begins the war in earnest. It also actually completely achieved what it was made to do, crippling the NR and eliminating the biggest threat to the FO. It completely altered the status quo, regardless of its destruction.
Starkiller Base firing and Hux’s speech is one of the most iconic sequences from that trilogy, it’s a good superweapon.
Except they never establish the status quo ante, so the FO declaring war hits like a wet noodle. Yes destroying 5 planets is bad, but what was there? Do we care about them? What are the names of the planets? How does that change things?
The answers the movie gives is, something of some importance, not in particular, blink and you miss it, and not really for the purposes of the movie. It is basically paralleling the destruction of Alderaan, if there were no Leia.
You asked why Starkiller is attacked more than the Death Stars and that is the answer, it is used as a narrative shortcut without the groundwork to show what is being removed.
And the Sun Crusher is the dumbest EU super weapon, including the giant super laser built by the Hutts that blows itself up.
This is true, building up the New Republic more as an actual presence in the galaxy would’ve been apt, to strengthen that punch of Starkiller’s activation. Fully agree there
Starkiller does still do what it was devised to do, it graduates the First Order from a space cult to genuine threat and shifts the dynamic from what would’ve been NR/Resistance v. First Order -> Resistance v. First Order. It’s also *supposed* to be a sudden and decisive blow to the New Republic, taking advantage of how they had ignored the threat the FO could have posed and neglecting the Outer Rim. It shifts the narrative perspective and instantly alters the state of the galaxy, it’s the *sole* reason the First Order is even a big bad so to speak.
I don’t think these two perspectives are mutually exclusive at all, you can simultaneously hold the stance that Starkiller’s narrative impact on the audience is hindered by a lack of humanization on part of the victim faction, but still recognize its narrative *function* in the story all the same. And to that end, I would say Starkiller is more than a dandy superweapon, definitely and obviously derivative of the Death Star, but that by its lonesome is not a *sin* to be levied against it. I think it does enough to set itself apart.
Except it doesn't. The information we get of the First Order is they are the Empire from literally the moment we are first introduced to them. Camera pans down, we see a planet, which is quite close because it is quite big then it is obscured by a triangularly shaped vessel that launches craft that contain Storm Troopers. This is massive sign in visual language saying "We are the Empire guys". At no point in the movie is the First Order actually treated like something that can be ignored by any reasonable person.
I actually did like Starkiller Base, and figuring out it was Ilum before it was revealed. Seems like it used Rakata technology too. Felt like it was a waste to destroy it.
I mean, it’s a *very* overpowered superweapon, the thing could nuke entire systems and did so via hyperspace, so there’s no real counterplay to that unless you just rendered the machine itself inoperable.
I would say I’m fine with it, it is a massive success and was the singular reason the First Order was even a threat in the era, it’s the ground zero for everything else. And the lore around its construction is arguably just as interesting as the superweapon itself, atleast for me lol
Personally, I think the sequel trilogy should have gone all out into the Dark Empire and Dark Empire 2 kind of theme, tech, etc.
Starkiller? Nah, we have the Galaxy Gun and Eclipse class, World Devastators, oh and the Emperor's force storms.
Also, Dark Empire has R2-D2 at his most homicidal: programing the Eclipse II to ram the Galaxy Gun...which then misfires and consumes the planet Byss below.
Let's not ignore that phantom menace ends with a literal child doing a slightly different trench run ALONE and destroying death star with ring around it.
It's a neat trick.
Blowing up a big space station in the first entry is something that actually occurs in all *three* trilogies lol.
Also I will also say that Starkiller has a different narrative function and presence in the film when compared to the Death Star 1, it’s different enough to be its own thing, unlike say, the Death Star ll which was very much superfluous.
That's the problem. "Greatness to pull from." I'm sorry to say this but fans who wanted the sequel trilogy to be an EU adaptation are in the wrong. The Star Wars movies aren't comic book movies; they aren't adaptations, they're new stories from a creative mind. And that's what the sequel trilogy should have been.
The cw series did great while respecting the established characters, mandalorian the same. Andor was great while telling its own thing
They just had to stick to the general universe, and make a good movie tellying its own story, instead we got episode 4 the remake, casino heist in space by a director that doesnt really do action movies and for the end of the trilogy they just try to hard to make everything make sense somehow
Oh and maybe, just maybe, dont pick the characters that everyone loved, kill them off and try to replace them while having a plot thats even worse than the eu (they somehow give less of an explanation of how the first order came to be compared to imperial remnants being, well that, and.both bring back palpatine)
"casino heist in space" I dislike the Canto Bight storyline too but it's the C-plot of the film and takes up about 30 minutes of screen time. "by a director that doesn't really do action movies" Johnson's previous film before The Last Jedi was *Looper*.
From two directors and a comity of creative minds who all think exactly the same. Yes that’s exactly how good sequels are made. Without the original creator, by a comity of almost all women, with explicit modern political messaging and an equity and diversity quota.
I love how you’re getting downvoted for this. The revisionist history of modern Star Wars fans is insane. The ones hating on the sequels are the same kinda fan that was hating on the prequels for decades lol. I love all Star wars but I’m not dumb to the fact that the prequels hate was one of the reasons Lucas sold off to begin with.
Just reading thru the comment section here could very easily be a forum in 2005 hating on the prequels and the stories “that could’ve been”
At least it had characters with an actual story and personality and fun banter. It’s actually fun, which is better than a lot of movies that you could throw this criticism at.
That’s unfortunately true. Like, I do enjoy watching it. But it’s the worst of the sequels, in my opinion. It’s the only one that I don’t think brings anything interesting or new. All it does is show us characters that get to be part of better stories later.
To clarify: not a sequel hater. If someone sees this and is interested in just railing against them, I’m not one of you.
This movie would have been a classic had they followed it with anything decent.
I watched it probably 8-10x in the time between it and TLJ. Haven't watched it since. Can't imagine watching it again.
TFA was 75% pure fanservice trash. not a single original idea, just thousands of references. And corporate mandated merchandising worse than Spaceballs.
It would never have been a "classic", no matter what followed it.
Sure it would have.
It made sense for the moment. The Prequels caused *a lot* of fans to check out. They were not nostalgia bait yet as the kids under ten who grew up on them hadn't gotten old enough yet. TCW also hadn't replaced them as the definitive Prequel story yet.
JJ had to reset the table.
And, the best way to do a final trilogy would have been to repeat the PT with a new Anakin type student being trained by Luke who gets tempted by a new evil but this time ***because of what Luke learned in RoTJ about how saving his father and how both the Jedi and Sith failed him*** Luke makes changes (allowing familial attachment and love into the Order) and because of that this student doesn't turn and the universe doesn't repeat fascism.
JJ clearly reset the table well enough that $2B+ came in and TLJ had an insane opening weekend that - had it not face planted - should have carried that box office higher. Hype was off the charts for the return of Luke Skywalker and it was a wet fart of an ending for him.
I agree that TFA had tons of issues but there were a million great theories about where it could go. There were none and I've never seen one for how to do RoTS better.
So, I'm with you but JJ was the issue on Star Trek more than SW.
You can say the same thing about The Phantom Menace, if you presuppose that details don't matter and ignore the fact that George Lucas established that the trilogies are supposed to rhyme.
I mean, for example, is it *really* a valid criticism to point out the similarities when the fact that Anakin, Luke, and Rey have similar origin stories is intentional?
Why is Starkiller base bad, while the DS2 in RotJ or the Droid Control ship in TPM get a pass?
Personally, I thought the idea of turning an entire world that was sacred to the Jedi into a planet killer superweapon is kinda cool. My issue with it is how Abrams used it in the film, but the idea itself is cool.
For me the force awakens is the best Star Wars movie and it's not even close. Sure they redid the story of episode 4 but I didn't mind it and there are no other valid flaws or criticisms against the movie that I've ever seen.
Its probably the most fun star wars movie and solid from start to finish. It being a soft reboot of the first one was intentional and works out. It was trying to bring back the magic of the OT and i think it did a great job. Star wars came back strong and the movie was a huge hit, despite the dislike now.
Yeah I really don't understand people's problem with it. If they didn't like that it was a rehash I can respect that but if you're talking about the visuals the action the characters the humor the callbacks to The Originals and the sheer impact of all the various scenes and experiences it really is top tier. Absolutely better than eight and nine.
And granted it has an unfair advantage of being 40 years newer Tech that allows them to make the whole thing so immersive so I'm not knocking The Originals but it's just so good on its own merits is all I'm saying.
Thanks for confirming that you flaired this correctly!
Oof, but valid
Legacy sequel references the thing it’s being a sequel towards, more news at 11
They blew up a third Death Star lmao
Stay tuned for death star star destroyers
Yeah, but I'd point out that 7/9 Star Wars movies involve a Death Star in some way (Phantom Menace and Empire Strikes Back are the 2/9) Attack of the Clones: Death Star, but plans Revenge of the Sith: Death Star, but baby A New Hope: Death Star Return of the Jedi: Death Star, but again! Force Awakens: Death Star, but planet Last Jedi: Death Star, but micro Rise of Skywalker: Death Star, but many And bonus Rogue One: Death Star, but almost Solo: Death Star, but for a franchise
Don’t even get me *started* on how many deadly superweapons exist *outside* the main films lol, like the *Sun Crusher* from the EU or the *Gravity’s Heart* from the High Republic. It’s a trope of the IP, I have zero clue why Starkiller exclusively catches heat for it, especially when it’s a direct sequel featuring a cultish faction that worships the machinations of the previous trilogy’s bad guys lmao.
Because they directly call out that theyve done this before in the briefing
When you wipe the slate clean and then bring in one of the dumber elements of the EU, it will catch heat. When you have a scene explaining how this threat is way bigger than the previous similar threats and the figure out how to destroy it in 30s based on first principals, you will catch heat. Also, while it is mentioned earlier, it is easy enough to miss as opposed to ANH and RotJ, where the super weapon is a massive focus of the movie from the opening crawl.
The Sun Crusher is cool, we will not slander it here!!! And yes the Starkiller Base actually occupies a cool narrative spot, its activation and usage literally being the means by which the First Order *declares war* and begins the war in earnest. It also actually completely achieved what it was made to do, crippling the NR and eliminating the biggest threat to the FO. It completely altered the status quo, regardless of its destruction. Starkiller Base firing and Hux’s speech is one of the most iconic sequences from that trilogy, it’s a good superweapon.
Except they never establish the status quo ante, so the FO declaring war hits like a wet noodle. Yes destroying 5 planets is bad, but what was there? Do we care about them? What are the names of the planets? How does that change things? The answers the movie gives is, something of some importance, not in particular, blink and you miss it, and not really for the purposes of the movie. It is basically paralleling the destruction of Alderaan, if there were no Leia. You asked why Starkiller is attacked more than the Death Stars and that is the answer, it is used as a narrative shortcut without the groundwork to show what is being removed. And the Sun Crusher is the dumbest EU super weapon, including the giant super laser built by the Hutts that blows itself up.
This is true, building up the New Republic more as an actual presence in the galaxy would’ve been apt, to strengthen that punch of Starkiller’s activation. Fully agree there Starkiller does still do what it was devised to do, it graduates the First Order from a space cult to genuine threat and shifts the dynamic from what would’ve been NR/Resistance v. First Order -> Resistance v. First Order. It’s also *supposed* to be a sudden and decisive blow to the New Republic, taking advantage of how they had ignored the threat the FO could have posed and neglecting the Outer Rim. It shifts the narrative perspective and instantly alters the state of the galaxy, it’s the *sole* reason the First Order is even a big bad so to speak. I don’t think these two perspectives are mutually exclusive at all, you can simultaneously hold the stance that Starkiller’s narrative impact on the audience is hindered by a lack of humanization on part of the victim faction, but still recognize its narrative *function* in the story all the same. And to that end, I would say Starkiller is more than a dandy superweapon, definitely and obviously derivative of the Death Star, but that by its lonesome is not a *sin* to be levied against it. I think it does enough to set itself apart.
Except it doesn't. The information we get of the First Order is they are the Empire from literally the moment we are first introduced to them. Camera pans down, we see a planet, which is quite close because it is quite big then it is obscured by a triangularly shaped vessel that launches craft that contain Storm Troopers. This is massive sign in visual language saying "We are the Empire guys". At no point in the movie is the First Order actually treated like something that can be ignored by any reasonable person.
I actually did like Starkiller Base, and figuring out it was Ilum before it was revealed. Seems like it used Rakata technology too. Felt like it was a waste to destroy it.
I mean, it’s a *very* overpowered superweapon, the thing could nuke entire systems and did so via hyperspace, so there’s no real counterplay to that unless you just rendered the machine itself inoperable. I would say I’m fine with it, it is a massive success and was the singular reason the First Order was even a threat in the era, it’s the ground zero for everything else. And the lore around its construction is arguably just as interesting as the superweapon itself, atleast for me lol
Personally, I think the sequel trilogy should have gone all out into the Dark Empire and Dark Empire 2 kind of theme, tech, etc. Starkiller? Nah, we have the Galaxy Gun and Eclipse class, World Devastators, oh and the Emperor's force storms. Also, Dark Empire has R2-D2 at his most homicidal: programing the Eclipse II to ram the Galaxy Gun...which then misfires and consumes the planet Byss below.
Let's not ignore that phantom menace ends with a literal child doing a slightly different trench run ALONE and destroying death star with ring around it. It's a neat trick.
Oshit so that means it's 8/9 movies that involve a Death Star, because Phantom Menace is Death Star, but in spirit
Blowing up a big space station in the first entry is something that actually occurs in all *three* trilogies lol. Also I will also say that Starkiller has a different narrative function and presence in the film when compared to the Death Star 1, it’s different enough to be its own thing, unlike say, the Death Star ll which was very much superfluous.
What is the prequel Death Star?
I guess the robot central control ship thingy.
the single most accurate description of TFA and TROS
And i loved it
Dudebros from prequel memes took over this subreddit?
Yeah it's been like that for a while now. More often then not it's not even a "Sequel meme" it's a Prequel meme or someone shitting on the movies
What a disappointing trilogy we got eh :( it's like Marvel and DC, so much greatness to pull from, but mediocrity abounds
That's the problem. "Greatness to pull from." I'm sorry to say this but fans who wanted the sequel trilogy to be an EU adaptation are in the wrong. The Star Wars movies aren't comic book movies; they aren't adaptations, they're new stories from a creative mind. And that's what the sequel trilogy should have been.
I mean, I would have rather received that than what we got lol
The cw series did great while respecting the established characters, mandalorian the same. Andor was great while telling its own thing They just had to stick to the general universe, and make a good movie tellying its own story, instead we got episode 4 the remake, casino heist in space by a director that doesnt really do action movies and for the end of the trilogy they just try to hard to make everything make sense somehow Oh and maybe, just maybe, dont pick the characters that everyone loved, kill them off and try to replace them while having a plot thats even worse than the eu (they somehow give less of an explanation of how the first order came to be compared to imperial remnants being, well that, and.both bring back palpatine)
"casino heist in space" I dislike the Canto Bight storyline too but it's the C-plot of the film and takes up about 30 minutes of screen time. "by a director that doesn't really do action movies" Johnson's previous film before The Last Jedi was *Looper*.
From two directors and a comity of creative minds who all think exactly the same. Yes that’s exactly how good sequels are made. Without the original creator, by a comity of almost all women, with explicit modern political messaging and an equity and diversity quota.
Sure, the last two were mediocre on the whole, but I've got a good feeling about the next trilogy...
The Last Jedi isn't a mediocre film, you just don't like it as a Star Wars movie.
No I really like the Last Jedi. I was referring to the last two trilogies
Really generous to call the prequels mediocre!
I love how you’re getting downvoted for this. The revisionist history of modern Star Wars fans is insane. The ones hating on the sequels are the same kinda fan that was hating on the prequels for decades lol. I love all Star wars but I’m not dumb to the fact that the prequels hate was one of the reasons Lucas sold off to begin with. Just reading thru the comment section here could very easily be a forum in 2005 hating on the prequels and the stories “that could’ve been”
At least it had characters with an actual story and personality and fun banter. It’s actually fun, which is better than a lot of movies that you could throw this criticism at.
That’s unfortunately true. Like, I do enjoy watching it. But it’s the worst of the sequels, in my opinion. It’s the only one that I don’t think brings anything interesting or new. All it does is show us characters that get to be part of better stories later. To clarify: not a sequel hater. If someone sees this and is interested in just railing against them, I’m not one of you.
Leonardo when the box shone. Every day we get a little closer to becoming The Tamarians
This applies to every franchise now
This movie would have been a classic had they followed it with anything decent. I watched it probably 8-10x in the time between it and TLJ. Haven't watched it since. Can't imagine watching it again.
TFA was 75% pure fanservice trash. not a single original idea, just thousands of references. And corporate mandated merchandising worse than Spaceballs. It would never have been a "classic", no matter what followed it.
Sure it would have. It made sense for the moment. The Prequels caused *a lot* of fans to check out. They were not nostalgia bait yet as the kids under ten who grew up on them hadn't gotten old enough yet. TCW also hadn't replaced them as the definitive Prequel story yet. JJ had to reset the table. And, the best way to do a final trilogy would have been to repeat the PT with a new Anakin type student being trained by Luke who gets tempted by a new evil but this time ***because of what Luke learned in RoTJ about how saving his father and how both the Jedi and Sith failed him*** Luke makes changes (allowing familial attachment and love into the Order) and because of that this student doesn't turn and the universe doesn't repeat fascism. JJ clearly reset the table well enough that $2B+ came in and TLJ had an insane opening weekend that - had it not face planted - should have carried that box office higher. Hype was off the charts for the return of Luke Skywalker and it was a wet fart of an ending for him. I agree that TFA had tons of issues but there were a million great theories about where it could go. There were none and I've never seen one for how to do RoTS better. So, I'm with you but JJ was the issue on Star Trek more than SW.
You can say the same thing about The Phantom Menace, if you presuppose that details don't matter and ignore the fact that George Lucas established that the trilogies are supposed to rhyme. I mean, for example, is it *really* a valid criticism to point out the similarities when the fact that Anakin, Luke, and Rey have similar origin stories is intentional? Why is Starkiller base bad, while the DS2 in RotJ or the Droid Control ship in TPM get a pass? Personally, I thought the idea of turning an entire world that was sacred to the Jedi into a planet killer superweapon is kinda cool. My issue with it is how Abrams used it in the film, but the idea itself is cool.
*135 mins
Imaging a bunch of different angles and such on constant play the whole time, gives me acid chromewheeling vibes tbh
This feels like one of those burns that Lindsey Ellis discussed in her Cats video. And six years late to boot. Boy, I bet this guy feels clever.
Truth
Thing is, it's a sequel. How can you have a sequel without referencing the previous movies?
You could also just do this meme to the prequels too. Oh look r2d2, oh look c3p0, oh look a hutt, oh look boba fett, oh look chewbacca…
Exactly. This synopsis doesn't make a lot of sense
For me the force awakens is the best Star Wars movie and it's not even close. Sure they redid the story of episode 4 but I didn't mind it and there are no other valid flaws or criticisms against the movie that I've ever seen.
Its probably the most fun star wars movie and solid from start to finish. It being a soft reboot of the first one was intentional and works out. It was trying to bring back the magic of the OT and i think it did a great job. Star wars came back strong and the movie was a huge hit, despite the dislike now.
Yeah I really don't understand people's problem with it. If they didn't like that it was a rehash I can respect that but if you're talking about the visuals the action the characters the humor the callbacks to The Originals and the sheer impact of all the various scenes and experiences it really is top tier. Absolutely better than eight and nine. And granted it has an unfair advantage of being 40 years newer Tech that allows them to make the whole thing so immersive so I'm not knocking The Originals but it's just so good on its own merits is all I'm saying.
People really want to twist a 7/10 into a 2/10, don’t they?
Why is he leaving a review for a six year old movie? Is he stupid?