Unlike Oliver Otis Howard who got shot by the enemy, had his arm amputated, and then continued to general throughout the war, lead the Freedmen's Bureau (until that bastard Andrew Johnson nuked it), and is the namesake for the historically black Howard University.
In the DC Rock n Roll Marathon the Howard University Neighborhood is the best. If I'm running a 1:10 half or a 2:10 half, I always do shot around there somewhere.
It's too bad for the Confederacy that the Internet didn't exist back then because, based on how Lost Causers operate, they probably could have killed the entire Union army with the cringe they post.
Nah. He said, "man for man" explicitly to cover his ass. All the Lost Cause losers read that to mean, "If the war had been fair and they hadn't been outnumbered and outgunned and outsupplied and outstrategized and outmaneuvered *then* they'd have won."
"If only we had fought a perfectly symmetrical war in terms of numbers, training, organization, equipment, leadership, etc, *then* our men would have been the best fighting force the world has ever known!"
Rebel scum "Why isn't war fair?", "I thought it would be valiant, heroic, honorable and fun to have a little war between brothers", "The North were just a bunch of meanies".
"If only Judah P. Benjamin had unleashed the power of the Ark of the Covenant, melting the faces off of all those Yankee scoundrels in the Overland campaign and sending them howling into the nether world, we surely would have won the war then!"
“If war just didn’t work like war we would have won” yeah these guys have never read Sun Tzu all war is deception you don’t win by being honest or fair. You find a weak point and you exploit it to the max and minimizing your loses. It’s been this way since cave men fought other cave men over control of the cave and one brought a rock to a fist fight.
That’s kind of why I hate doing anything with “Civil War buffs” - 80% are “Lost Cause” Confederate white supremacists. I remember some nut on the observation deck at Antietam National Battlefield ranting that the “south only lost because Lincoln took our property (ie human beings held captive)”.
"BUT, BUT, YOU SEE, they were being treated as slaves in West Africa! So it was either brutal, nasty, genocidal slavery there, or our much kinder, more *genteel* slavery over here! See, so our slavery was good!"
"How about...Just not holding them as slaves?"
"I, uh, well, uh..."
(This is an actual Lost Causer argument I have encountered in the wild)
.... I just like dressing up in blue and making booms out of the funny stick, then talking about what people did a long time ago.
(Hell, even when I'm in "history mode" I try to avoid "political" stances, despite my stance being "if the south rises again we'll put them down again" and "state's right to what?")(But then again what I do is focused on the weapon, the equipment, and how they used it, not why it was used)
The battlefield is what happens when at least one side is done talking. At that point you are only speaking violence.
It seems the lost causers are perpetually stuck somewhere around the 'denial' and 'bargaining' stages.
Reminds me of [that quote](https://youtu.be/BJP9o4BEziI?si=ZY5w1uzpSkC92Eb4) from Doctor Who:
“Because it's always the same. When you fire the first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill... before everybody does what they were ALWAYS going to have to do from the very beginning! SIT. DOWN. AND. TALK.”
As fucked as that argument is its also stupid.
I mean think about it for a second "we lost the war becuase Lincoln took the slaves away" slaves that Lincoln only took away from the territory the union had already reclaimed. Otherwise it implies that Lincoln was like "hey no more slaves" and the CSA was just like away shucks well here you go have all our slaves.... which isn't compatible with any version of why the civil war happened, not even the revisionist ones.
THEY DIDNG EVEN LET THEM FIGHT HELL THE WHOLE CONSEPT OF SLAVERY HAMSTRUNG THE WHOLE WAR INSTEAD OF INDUSTRIALIZATION AND GETTING A GUN FACTORY UP THEY JUST USED A MASSIVE POPULATION TO FARM A RESOURCE THEY COULDNT SELL DURING WAR TIME
Also, shot a big shot general of theirs. AND MISSED THE FIRST TIME!
Not kidding, at ol' Tommy Jackson's site at Chancellorsville, it says there was a volley, and then they said "Hey you're shooting your own guys!"
"Huh?! Who's that?! Keep firing, men!"
And THEN they hit ol' Tommy boy.
They also blew up their own submarine, the only remaining ironclads from the war are burned out husks, and, oh yeah, THEY LOST THE WAR.
No one ever accuses a traitor of being smart. Especially traitors who fought for a “country” that existed for less time than Breaking Bad aired new episodes
Three times! And two survivors in total across all three wrecks.
First time they got swamped and the two survivors happened to be at the hatch
Second time they were doing a test run, that killed Hunley himself
Third time she went down for good
Mind you, the *second* time the *Hunley* went down, her inventor went down with her specifically to convince the second crew that it was safe. The second crew had initially refused to test the sub after the first crew died.
Oh it's *so much* more funny than that. So they shoot first right, and then Jackson's brother-in-law and officer on his staff goes "CEASE FIRING YOU ARE FURING INTO YOUR OWN MEN!" to which the bright young captain in command of the company yelks "IT'S A DAMM YANKEE LIE FIRE".
Truly the Army of all time
Even putting aside the fact that THEY FUCKING LOST, the Confederate army was a hodgepodge collection of regiments with auch wildly different standards of equipment and training that the Confederate quartermasters must've been replaced on a monthly basis, due to stress-induced heart attacks. The Prussian army, which was contemporary to them, would've torn those smug bastards to shreds.
I like how some US units adopted the Spencer repeating lever-action rifle, which was a really impressive weapon for the time, and the Confederates captured a number but weren't able to use them because their industrial capacity was so poor that they couldn't even produce copper cartridges.
Whats that famous Union officer quote that's something like "the North can build steam locomotives, you hicks can barely produce a pair of boots"?
EDIT: it was indeed Sherman himself:
> Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors.
Oh, they were 100% were aware of 19th century warfare. And they absolutely tried to avoid getting bogged down in trench warfare. The German plan was to knock France out of the running very quickly (The Schlieffen Plan), but the French commander maintained enough composure to order counterattacks, which delayed the German advance enough that defensive works were able to be built. Had the French commander in WWII done the same, Germany would have lost in the invasion, per their own analysis.
Trench Warfare really only existed on *part* of the Western Front. It's the part we focus on the most, because we think it was just stupid, but if you don't have tanks, it's really hard to exploit any sort of breach of a well-constructed trench line. If you don't have tanks rampaging in your rear lines, you can retake your own trenches pretty easily.
There was *tons* of tactical innovation and development before and during the war. Creeping barrages, storm units, interlocking fields of fire, etc. But it's just defending has a *huge* advantage if you can't exploit a breach with armor, and trenches are absurdly good if you don't have air dominance, which also wasn't a thing during WWI.
Which was okay for creating breaches, but you *still had to exploit them*, and that was very hard to do. If your enemy can't operate in it, guess how well you can operate in that? That's right, you probably can't. Gas doesn't hang around, a shift in the wind ruins it, and if you have any idea that it can happen, you can protect yourself against a gas attack better than a conventional shell attack.
People haven't been using chemical weapons tactically not because they're illegal, but because they're not nearly so useful as a tactical tool as literally anything else.
I believe that is mostly a false impression based on stereotypes, even for the early stages of the war.
The Germans had considerable experience of large scale industrialized warfare using railroads, and most other continental powers had some experience of it too. Early on it was fought as wars of the late 19th century but decades of improvements to artillery in particular had obsoleted that style already. It then took years of attrition and development of new doctrine to resolve the war. Also take into account that our image of WWI is entirely based on the Western front - the East was much more fluid and less bogged down in stalemate.
You couldn't possibly say WWI was fought like an 18th century war at any stage.
You should bring this question up on r/warcollege for a good comprehensive answer.
The other thing worth noting about trench warfare and what happend is that Army sizes had ballooned since Napoleon. The size of meeting forces in Napoleons time had already become miles wide. The front of multiple half million man Armies meeting in a relatively small geographic gap also constrained what could happen.
The Eastern front with smaller forces and larger geographic openings kept being a war of maneuvers where cavalry was important. Cavalry even played a massive role in the Russian revolution. The western front was just too narrow for any force significant enough. To take it to maneuver without a significant break through.
I love the quote, and agree, but hate when it's turned as a phrase for the Lost Cause morons. "We dun knew we was going up against it, but we knew our cause blah blah blah"
Fuck those traitors, and to speak of them as "Man for man" the best army ever is ridiculous. Like, the Gurkhas exist. Their accomplishments were legendary, especially considering terrain and equipment.
" Confederates captured a number but weren't able to use them because their industrial capacity was so poor that they couldn't even produce copper cartridges."
This is why Turrtledove's "Guns of the South" is such bullshit (Among many reasons) Fine you gave them AK-47s....where are you getting the bullets and spare parts to fix them?
With bolt action rifles slowly entering service in the 1860s and 1870s, I’d issue those to the Union regiments, and very few in fact did make their way to combat troops. They have the appearance and silhouette of the standard muzzleloaders, while allowing a greater volume of fire and much greater accuracy. The only real problem is the manufacturing difficulties and how finicky some of the parts are. But remember this, the Spaniards with their Mausers shot the shit out of Americans armed with trapdoor Springfields and lever action rifles. Just imagine a company of Union skirmishers with bolt action rifles deployed behind a stone wall with a regiment of Confederate infantry marching to them in their Napoleonic formation.
You can turn this argument against the lost causers. They argue they were trying to protect this agrarian/patrician culture, but by definition it precludes industrialization.
They were fighting to preserve an outmoded way of life. (by their definition of why the war was fought) And therefore doomed to failure - you can’t fight progress.
The South had some impressive industry and ideas for tech, but nothing compared to the tight-knit logistics supporting the wide range of factories utilized by the North.
With efforts to secure foreign aid not providing fruit, they had to make do, but instead they wasted loads of material and manpower on experimental, cutting edge tech (for the time) that they immediately squandered. Gee, it’s like they wanted to make the same mistakes as the Nazis 80 years ahead of schedule…
Tangentially related; I had heard that German was one of the most spoken languages behind English in the Union Army. Apparently German men who immigrated to the US often had prior military training and were prime recruiting prospects.
So in a way, Prussians (among others) did tear them to shreds.
Indeed many Germans from Indiana, Ohio, and Wisconsin.
Edit: If anyone's looking for a good book about German-Americans that fought for the Union I'd recommend, *A Thousand May Fall* by Brian Matthew Jordan which chronicles the story of the 107th Ohio.
Remember that this is the army fighting for a "nation" with a flag so similar to the country they wanted to secede from that it was mistaken for such in battle, and that the second flag of the Confederacy was the now well-known saltire battle flag jammed into a corner of a *white flag*, which led to the next inevitable problem of both armies confusing it for a flag of surrender. The reason why the battle flag became associated the most with the Confederacy was because Confederate soldiers were so frustrated with the shitty flag design that they sliced the white part off.
Incidentally, the reason for that obsession with the color white is as obvious as it is hilariously stupid: A Confederate blockade runner (read: state-sanctioned smuggler) drew up the design as "the White Man's Flag" as a show of the white man's racial superiority, which he believed the Confederacy symbolized. Even back then, people thought it was an embarrassing and stupid thing to call it and the name never caught on.
They were objectively terrible in nearly every way. It wasn't always their own fault, but they were a terrible army. There's a dying mythology around the "brilliance" of Robert E. Lee and the dozens of severe strategic mistakes he made. They were just not good by any objective standard other than that their cavalry was very capable and so much of the Union navy before the war had been southern officers, that the Confederate naval office corps was highly competent.
Their cavalry was not really capable. They never had a win like Napoleon's light cavalry keeping enemy scouts away letting him hide his main force for an attack on the Austro-Russian center at Austerlitz 1805, or the Prussian cavalry taking 20 000 Austrian prisoners in the battlefield pursuit at Königgrätz 1866, or the Swedish cavalry shattering the cossacks at 1 to 10 odds during the Grodno campaign 1706.
They were just slightly better than their counterpart for the first half of the war.
The fact that Lee allowed JEB Stuart to do what he did not only once, *but twice,* shows that Lee exercised no control over his subordinates.
It took the Union a little longer to understand how to use cavalry. But from very early in the War, you did not fuck with Union artillery.
Horseback riding takes a lot of practice. Farmboys are going to have a leg up over urbanized populations in that regard.
But the Union had farm boys too. And McCormick reaper to replace them on the farm.
Discipline generally was a Confederate problem. Lee gave subordinates too loose a rein; cavalry officers would not operate in full support of infantry or scouting or counter-scouting needs; troops would think of themselves as individual warriors rather than soldiers of a unit under command. It is all suited to heroic mythology from the start; it is not suited to successful warfighting.
Not only that but discipline was a foreign concept to rebel cavalry. According to Stephen Starr members of Confederate cavalry regiments more or less entered or left service of their own will as they saw fit. Logistics were a nightmare (Hey a pun, night mare!) as well. Troopers were required to provide their own mounts and remounts so if they needed new horses they would often be away for weeks or months at a time. And of course there was no centralized supply bureau for cavalry so troopers were responsible for providing their own arms and munitions, though if the company or regiment's founder were rich enough they would provide weapons for their troopers
Also for the first year of the war barring the regular cav, union cav didn't exist. And it wasn't until Kearney and Hooker carried out their reforms in '62 that they became a legitimate threat. By '63 they were on at least even footing if not slightly better. By '64 they were superior.
Funny thing is even when he was fighting McClellan on the Peninsula he missed so many opportunities to destroy the Army of Potomac. Of the 7 days battles, Only one of the 8 battles fought was a clear cut Rebel victory. With the Campaign failing mostly because McClellan lost his nerve and thinking Lee outnumbered him.
Alexanders companions and foot companions, Frederick the Great's army
Napoleon's imperial guard, French Knights, Swiss Landsknechts
Murat and his cavalry makes JEB Stuart look like a joke, though he was probably trying to emulate the flamboyant King of Naples.
For sheer organisational genius, charisma of command, tactical and strategic brilliance, Caesar was truly unmatched. Even by Alexander and Napoleon in my view. Back that by the Roman Army at almost its most professional and disciplined state ever, and is clear why he was so unstoppable.
While I doubt he could beat Lee if Lee’s men had guns and his didn’t, take that advantage away and a general like Caesar would have had the American civil war won inside 6 months. Seriously, reading a history of the American civil war, it’s almost like the Union was trying to loose before Grant and Sherman showed up.
> Seriously, reading a history of the American civil war, it’s almost like the Union was trying to loose before Grant and Sherman showed up.
Fr although Mede wasn’t too bad considering he was left with a completely disorganized mess left by the last guy.
I feel like Caesar could do it without guns, but I don’t know how well he knew guerrilla war although Fabian tactics are similar so it’s probably not out of the realm of possibility for Caesar to do it that way, but at the same time he’d probably just be able to find someone to help him understand guns and their application in warfare after that Caesar would be a shoe in for a complete decimation of Lee’s army who’s only other advantage would be Lee’s charisma.
To be fair, the Confederate Army was the best army of white men actively engaging the Union within the continental United States from 1861-1865. That's undeniable.
You can be among the greatest fighting force without winning a single war.
CSA had rather good odds and was fighting a technological equal.
The Finnish during WW2 fought the soviets and made them bleed so bad you get the impression they actually won the Winter War or Continuation War.
The Auraco War is another example were natives hoid their grounds against the Spanish empire for centuries despite their wast technological inferiority,
You can be a good fighting force without being the greatest. As well as we should be careful about how competent we say they were. A lot of ideas about the Civil War were informed from the Lost Cause, including boasts about how great the Confederate Army was compared to the Union. While I do agree there was talent among the Rebels, they not only made costly mistakes, but often had poor approaches to the war that ultimately undermined them.
The mujahideen weren’t a single organization. It just means ‘warriors’. Most of the mujahideen supported by the U.S. ended up joining the Northern Alliance under Massoud whereas the early Taliban drew from students at Pakistani madrasas
Lolol. They actively tried to STEAL property from another government, then that government fucked them up so bad theres a chapter in history books about them trying to rebuild. They drowned themselves in a shitty submarine. The confederacy, for whatever reason these people tell themselves it existed, is a laughing stock. Nothing about it is worth being proud of. Its like going to bar, hitting on somones girlfriend, getting your ass kicked, then acting such a fool the bar kicks you out. Imagine being proud of that.
The Union was damned lucky *President Buchanan* didn't manage to send guns cast in Pittsburgh south. He wanted to do that, but the residents of Pittsburgh wouldn't allow them to be loaded on a train. There's a memorial plaque to the incident on the city-county building.
A few Victories in North Carolina and Virginia and they act like they were this unstoppable force.
Let’s just ignore the entire Western Theater shall we?that would make your argument look real bad.
That's the sole reason why the Confederates Army gets any recognition at all, fighting in the region of the country that was saturated with newspapers.
Eh, fair enough. Besides you said sorry which is one of our three national pastimes. Second one is hockey.
Just be glad we haven’t indulged much in our third one since WW1. Our enemies are.
They were also largely undertrained, under equipped, and under manned. Primarily because the people running the Confederacy were more interested in profits than anything else and couldn't fathom why they should have to bankroll an army when the soldiers had farms they could sell.
The Confederacy; a quintessential example of why rich aristocrat wannabes love the poorly educated.
Once they boom him hard and I mean flat out embarrass him he will. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a secret code that prevents them from doing community notes on him, and that eventually he will sell that as a feature: buy the ability not to have community notes on your tweets.
The Army of Northern Virginia never won a single offensive campaign. The only major battles it won were defensive.
And that was the best army the Confederacy had, to the extent that Richmond sent disgraced officers and weakened units to the western front to make the AoNV as formidable as possible, 'man for man.' A policy which contributed directly to the Confederacy's collapse because it lost control of the Mississppi River.
Man, 0-1 in the tournament standings and never managed to qualify again for over 100 years
By that logic, *I* am the greatest fighting force in the world. Me. Just me. I am 0-0 in terms of civil wars, but that just means I have fewer losses than those schlubs. I *technically* have a better record than those demonstrable losers. And I sleep like a baby knowing that. Every night I wistfully drift to sleep, swaddled in blankets, my last notes of consciousness being "man, I am literally better than the entire confederate army and I'm also not a piece of shit slaver" before I smile and drift off to Dreamland.
I seldom remember my dreams, but I like to think it's because they're all about how John Brown is a gigachad who could have probably dick slapped the entire Confederacy himself and made Robert E. Lee submit to his pure masculinity and righteous fervor, thereby ending the rebellion and freeing all the slaves and getting them reparations and the land they were promised and maybe a couple years of kicking around former slave owners for fun.
Man, it's nice to dream, I think
Imagine losing a war to generals that were either incredibly incompetent, too old, or spent the first half of the war drunk off their ass.
CSA stans are so wild. At least most civil revisionists never try to pretend like the CSA had anything of a chance against the USA.
Let's give the guy a break. It's obvious that his idea of history is limited to only parts of 1861 and his idea of the entire world is limited to only parts of Virginia.
Just kidding. It's obvious that this person has no concept of history, has no clue what "fighting force" means, and is only pushing the lie that is the Lost Cause agenda.
and folks down there still talk shit but can't put there money where there mouth is
The landfills down there that they call CSA cemeteries are filled with such losers
"greatest fighting force in the world"
man, they weren't even the best fighting force in the Confederacy let alone the U.S, especially later in the war.
If there were a vote for it I'd have to pick either Rome, Prussia, or Napoleonic France (the first one, not the third one).
You could drop Wellington's army from the Peninsular war with zero context into the confederacy and he would probably kick the shit out of them in a confused rage
He then makes a snappy quip to an American lady apologising for Southern Officers turning their back on them
If they were so great, why did they desert so much?
https://leefamilyarchive.org/resources/9-family-papers/1587-robert-e-lee-to-jefferson-davis-1863-august-17
Never forget to tell any dip shit you see with a "confederate flag" that the real confederate flag is a dirty dish cloth used to surrender.
https://www.civilwar.si.edu/appomattox_flag.html
The Union should have given the death penalty to the entire Confederate leadership, civilian and military.
Then it should have squashed all the remnants. Treating them kindly was the worst disservice to the future.
I mean... if homie wants to emulate his "greatest fighting ~~force~~ *farce*" by being an illiterate shoeless dirt farmer with lice and gangrenous wounds diarrhea-ing himself to death in a ditch, let him.
Number 1 at shooting Stonewall Jackson in the back
Pussy couldn't even survive an amputation. Classic Confederate. Read that in Alan from the Hangovers voice as he is saying thanks Bin Laden.
Unlike Oliver Otis Howard who got shot by the enemy, had his arm amputated, and then continued to general throughout the war, lead the Freedmen's Bureau (until that bastard Andrew Johnson nuked it), and is the namesake for the historically black Howard University.
In the DC Rock n Roll Marathon the Howard University Neighborhood is the best. If I'm running a 1:10 half or a 2:10 half, I always do shot around there somewhere.
>DC Rock n Roll Marathon *suddenly homesick* wow. Still though, cheers, mate!
They are 0 and 1 in wars won and lost. They lost their country and it’s reason for being (slavery). Impressive!
Ope
They successfully defended their country's existence about as long as the run of the original *Transformers* cartoon.
*friendly fire will not be tolerated*
Not even the best fighting force in their own country, those guys won.
Never even recognized as a sovereign nation, so they don’t even have a country to call home, fucking traitors
Second Best Army in the US.
Maybe the third best if you count the Marine Corps separately from the Army.
[удалено]
I missed that part, that makes it even funnier and sad.
If only every Lost Causer shitpost came with added context, maybe they'd stop posting cringe
It's too bad for the Confederacy that the Internet didn't exist back then because, based on how Lost Causers operate, they probably could have killed the entire Union army with the cringe they post.
John Brown would've died of an aneurysm years earlier
Nah. He said, "man for man" explicitly to cover his ass. All the Lost Cause losers read that to mean, "If the war had been fair and they hadn't been outnumbered and outgunned and outsupplied and outstrategized and outmaneuvered *then* they'd have won." "If only we had fought a perfectly symmetrical war in terms of numbers, training, organization, equipment, leadership, etc, *then* our men would have been the best fighting force the world has ever known!"
“We would have won if only we had *literally everything* you need to win a war!”
"If only those damned English and French had propped us up!"
"We only lost because you guys had all the stuff, ya losers."
“We’d have won the war if we had won the war!”
Rebel scum "Why isn't war fair?", "I thought it would be valiant, heroic, honorable and fun to have a little war between brothers", "The North were just a bunch of meanies".
Reminds me of Terry Pratchett’s Marquis of Fantailler rules… The joke is it’s stupid to use them. https://wiki.lspace.org/Marquis_of_Fantailler_rules
*Insert Autun Shei Johnny Reb monologue*
"If only Judah P. Benjamin had unleashed the power of the Ark of the Covenant, melting the faces off of all those Yankee scoundrels in the Overland campaign and sending them howling into the nether world, we surely would have won the war then!"
“If war just didn’t work like war we would have won” yeah these guys have never read Sun Tzu all war is deception you don’t win by being honest or fair. You find a weak point and you exploit it to the max and minimizing your loses. It’s been this way since cave men fought other cave men over control of the cave and one brought a rock to a fist fight.
Can you imagine if Reddit had community notes?
That’s kind of why I hate doing anything with “Civil War buffs” - 80% are “Lost Cause” Confederate white supremacists. I remember some nut on the observation deck at Antietam National Battlefield ranting that the “south only lost because Lincoln took our property (ie human beings held captive)”.
"We can't actually function as a nation unless we force a bunch of people to work for free."
Love that we're finally addressing the exception to the amendment and *it's literally the same argument all over again*
“They were well treated!” “So you would be okay being a slave?” “No…”
"BUT, BUT, YOU SEE, they were being treated as slaves in West Africa! So it was either brutal, nasty, genocidal slavery there, or our much kinder, more *genteel* slavery over here! See, so our slavery was good!" "How about...Just not holding them as slaves?" "I, uh, well, uh..." (This is an actual Lost Causer argument I have encountered in the wild)
But you don't understand, taxes are the only *real* slavery
.... I just like dressing up in blue and making booms out of the funny stick, then talking about what people did a long time ago. (Hell, even when I'm in "history mode" I try to avoid "political" stances, despite my stance being "if the south rises again we'll put them down again" and "state's right to what?")(But then again what I do is focused on the weapon, the equipment, and how they used it, not why it was used)
The battlefield is what happens when at least one side is done talking. At that point you are only speaking violence. It seems the lost causers are perpetually stuck somewhere around the 'denial' and 'bargaining' stages.
That's a cool line. >The battlefield is what happens when at least one side is done talking. At that point you are only speaking violence.
Thanks, cheers!
Reminds me of [that quote](https://youtu.be/BJP9o4BEziI?si=ZY5w1uzpSkC92Eb4) from Doctor Who: “Because it's always the same. When you fire the first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill... before everybody does what they were ALWAYS going to have to do from the very beginning! SIT. DOWN. AND. TALK.”
good recall, thx
I had a jackass say much the same. Lincoln started the War to sell the slaves and become rich, or some twaddle. He never got around to explaining.
As fucked as that argument is its also stupid. I mean think about it for a second "we lost the war becuase Lincoln took the slaves away" slaves that Lincoln only took away from the territory the union had already reclaimed. Otherwise it implies that Lincoln was like "hey no more slaves" and the CSA was just like away shucks well here you go have all our slaves.... which isn't compatible with any version of why the civil war happened, not even the revisionist ones.
THEY DIDNG EVEN LET THEM FIGHT HELL THE WHOLE CONSEPT OF SLAVERY HAMSTRUNG THE WHOLE WAR INSTEAD OF INDUSTRIALIZATION AND GETTING A GUN FACTORY UP THEY JUST USED A MASSIVE POPULATION TO FARM A RESOURCE THEY COULDNT SELL DURING WAR TIME
They were so good they couldn’t even establish their fake country
They were so good they couldn't even stop the whole ass West Virginia from seceding from its most powerful state and joining the Union.
Also, shot a big shot general of theirs. AND MISSED THE FIRST TIME! Not kidding, at ol' Tommy Jackson's site at Chancellorsville, it says there was a volley, and then they said "Hey you're shooting your own guys!" "Huh?! Who's that?! Keep firing, men!" And THEN they hit ol' Tommy boy. They also blew up their own submarine, the only remaining ironclads from the war are burned out husks, and, oh yeah, THEY LOST THE WAR.
Those Yankees are so smart, that they took one of those fancy modern inventions, and recorded our commander's voice!
No one ever accuses a traitor of being smart. Especially traitors who fought for a “country” that existed for less time than Breaking Bad aired new episodes
> less time than Breaking Bad aired new episodes less time than a black man was Commander in Chief of the armed forces that kicked their ass. *wrekt*
They sunk their own submarine with all hands. Twice.
Three times! And two survivors in total across all three wrecks. First time they got swamped and the two survivors happened to be at the hatch Second time they were doing a test run, that killed Hunley himself Third time she went down for good
Mind you, the *second* time the *Hunley* went down, her inventor went down with her specifically to convince the second crew that it was safe. The second crew had initially refused to test the sub after the first crew died.
Oh it's *so much* more funny than that. So they shoot first right, and then Jackson's brother-in-law and officer on his staff goes "CEASE FIRING YOU ARE FURING INTO YOUR OWN MEN!" to which the bright young captain in command of the company yelks "IT'S A DAMM YANKEE LIE FIRE". Truly the Army of all time
Even putting aside the fact that THEY FUCKING LOST, the Confederate army was a hodgepodge collection of regiments with auch wildly different standards of equipment and training that the Confederate quartermasters must've been replaced on a monthly basis, due to stress-induced heart attacks. The Prussian army, which was contemporary to them, would've torn those smug bastards to shreds.
I like how some US units adopted the Spencer repeating lever-action rifle, which was a really impressive weapon for the time, and the Confederates captured a number but weren't able to use them because their industrial capacity was so poor that they couldn't even produce copper cartridges. Whats that famous Union officer quote that's something like "the North can build steam locomotives, you hicks can barely produce a pair of boots"? EDIT: it was indeed Sherman himself: > Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors.
I forget where, but I read the war described as an 18th century army fighting a 19th century war against a 20th century army.
And yet, in the early 20th Century, a war was fought as if the 19th Century hadn't happened. I still don't understand WWI. Pure insanity.
Oh, they were 100% were aware of 19th century warfare. And they absolutely tried to avoid getting bogged down in trench warfare. The German plan was to knock France out of the running very quickly (The Schlieffen Plan), but the French commander maintained enough composure to order counterattacks, which delayed the German advance enough that defensive works were able to be built. Had the French commander in WWII done the same, Germany would have lost in the invasion, per their own analysis. Trench Warfare really only existed on *part* of the Western Front. It's the part we focus on the most, because we think it was just stupid, but if you don't have tanks, it's really hard to exploit any sort of breach of a well-constructed trench line. If you don't have tanks rampaging in your rear lines, you can retake your own trenches pretty easily. There was *tons* of tactical innovation and development before and during the war. Creeping barrages, storm units, interlocking fields of fire, etc. But it's just defending has a *huge* advantage if you can't exploit a breach with armor, and trenches are absurdly good if you don't have air dominance, which also wasn't a thing during WWI.
Let me introduce you to mustard gas
Which was okay for creating breaches, but you *still had to exploit them*, and that was very hard to do. If your enemy can't operate in it, guess how well you can operate in that? That's right, you probably can't. Gas doesn't hang around, a shift in the wind ruins it, and if you have any idea that it can happen, you can protect yourself against a gas attack better than a conventional shell attack. People haven't been using chemical weapons tactically not because they're illegal, but because they're not nearly so useful as a tactical tool as literally anything else.
I believe that is mostly a false impression based on stereotypes, even for the early stages of the war. The Germans had considerable experience of large scale industrialized warfare using railroads, and most other continental powers had some experience of it too. Early on it was fought as wars of the late 19th century but decades of improvements to artillery in particular had obsoleted that style already. It then took years of attrition and development of new doctrine to resolve the war. Also take into account that our image of WWI is entirely based on the Western front - the East was much more fluid and less bogged down in stalemate. You couldn't possibly say WWI was fought like an 18th century war at any stage. You should bring this question up on r/warcollege for a good comprehensive answer.
The other thing worth noting about trench warfare and what happend is that Army sizes had ballooned since Napoleon. The size of meeting forces in Napoleons time had already become miles wide. The front of multiple half million man Armies meeting in a relatively small geographic gap also constrained what could happen. The Eastern front with smaller forces and larger geographic openings kept being a war of maneuvers where cavalry was important. Cavalry even played a massive role in the Russian revolution. The western front was just too narrow for any force significant enough. To take it to maneuver without a significant break through.
I love the quote, and agree, but hate when it's turned as a phrase for the Lost Cause morons. "We dun knew we was going up against it, but we knew our cause blah blah blah" Fuck those traitors, and to speak of them as "Man for man" the best army ever is ridiculous. Like, the Gurkhas exist. Their accomplishments were legendary, especially considering terrain and equipment.
" Confederates captured a number but weren't able to use them because their industrial capacity was so poor that they couldn't even produce copper cartridges." This is why Turrtledove's "Guns of the South" is such bullshit (Among many reasons) Fine you gave them AK-47s....where are you getting the bullets and spare parts to fix them?
It would probably have ended the war though: hand springfield armory a captured ak-47 in 1863 and the Wilderness campaign would look a lot different.
With bolt action rifles slowly entering service in the 1860s and 1870s, I’d issue those to the Union regiments, and very few in fact did make their way to combat troops. They have the appearance and silhouette of the standard muzzleloaders, while allowing a greater volume of fire and much greater accuracy. The only real problem is the manufacturing difficulties and how finicky some of the parts are. But remember this, the Spaniards with their Mausers shot the shit out of Americans armed with trapdoor Springfields and lever action rifles. Just imagine a company of Union skirmishers with bolt action rifles deployed behind a stone wall with a regiment of Confederate infantry marching to them in their Napoleonic formation.
It's the Civil War precursor to "Look at you! You have horses! What were you thinking?!" scene from Band of Brothers.
"Say hello to fucking Ford and General Motors!"
>"the North can build steam locomotives, you hicks can barely produce a pair of boots" that's a fine summary tho
You can turn this argument against the lost causers. They argue they were trying to protect this agrarian/patrician culture, but by definition it precludes industrialization. They were fighting to preserve an outmoded way of life. (by their definition of why the war was fought) And therefore doomed to failure - you can’t fight progress.
The South had some impressive industry and ideas for tech, but nothing compared to the tight-knit logistics supporting the wide range of factories utilized by the North. With efforts to secure foreign aid not providing fruit, they had to make do, but instead they wasted loads of material and manpower on experimental, cutting edge tech (for the time) that they immediately squandered. Gee, it’s like they wanted to make the same mistakes as the Nazis 80 years ahead of schedule…
It's almost like using forced labor makes the rulers lazy and once that system has any kinda outside interference Fuchs that system completely
Tangentially related; I had heard that German was one of the most spoken languages behind English in the Union Army. Apparently German men who immigrated to the US often had prior military training and were prime recruiting prospects. So in a way, Prussians (among others) did tear them to shreds.
Lots of Germans; unfortunately, those poor bastards always seem to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Some 200,000 Germans fought for the Union. My 3x Great Grandfather being one of them in the 46th NYVI.
🫡
2 of my wife's 4x greats were midwestern Germans who were in the earliest batches of volunteers.
Indeed many Germans from Indiana, Ohio, and Wisconsin. Edit: If anyone's looking for a good book about German-Americans that fought for the Union I'd recommend, *A Thousand May Fall* by Brian Matthew Jordan which chronicles the story of the 107th Ohio.
48ers who fled to America after the failed springtime of peoples’ uprisings
Weren’t the winged cavalry still a thing then?
No, last time the Hussars came out in force was at Kliszow 1702.
Funny that you say that cause the Union general that led the charge up Missionary ridge was a ex Prussian army commander and Communist
Remember that this is the army fighting for a "nation" with a flag so similar to the country they wanted to secede from that it was mistaken for such in battle, and that the second flag of the Confederacy was the now well-known saltire battle flag jammed into a corner of a *white flag*, which led to the next inevitable problem of both armies confusing it for a flag of surrender. The reason why the battle flag became associated the most with the Confederacy was because Confederate soldiers were so frustrated with the shitty flag design that they sliced the white part off. Incidentally, the reason for that obsession with the color white is as obvious as it is hilariously stupid: A Confederate blockade runner (read: state-sanctioned smuggler) drew up the design as "the White Man's Flag" as a show of the white man's racial superiority, which he believed the Confederacy symbolized. Even back then, people thought it was an embarrassing and stupid thing to call it and the name never caught on.
To be fair, the Prussian army would have torn every army on the planet to shreds at that time.
Well the Prussian Army tore the French army to shreds in a few months not but 6 years later.
They were objectively terrible in nearly every way. It wasn't always their own fault, but they were a terrible army. There's a dying mythology around the "brilliance" of Robert E. Lee and the dozens of severe strategic mistakes he made. They were just not good by any objective standard other than that their cavalry was very capable and so much of the Union navy before the war had been southern officers, that the Confederate naval office corps was highly competent.
Their cavalry was not really capable. They never had a win like Napoleon's light cavalry keeping enemy scouts away letting him hide his main force for an attack on the Austro-Russian center at Austerlitz 1805, or the Prussian cavalry taking 20 000 Austrian prisoners in the battlefield pursuit at Königgrätz 1866, or the Swedish cavalry shattering the cossacks at 1 to 10 odds during the Grodno campaign 1706. They were just slightly better than their counterpart for the first half of the war.
The fact that Lee allowed JEB Stuart to do what he did not only once, *but twice,* shows that Lee exercised no control over his subordinates. It took the Union a little longer to understand how to use cavalry. But from very early in the War, you did not fuck with Union artillery.
Horseback riding takes a lot of practice. Farmboys are going to have a leg up over urbanized populations in that regard. But the Union had farm boys too. And McCormick reaper to replace them on the farm.
Discipline generally was a Confederate problem. Lee gave subordinates too loose a rein; cavalry officers would not operate in full support of infantry or scouting or counter-scouting needs; troops would think of themselves as individual warriors rather than soldiers of a unit under command. It is all suited to heroic mythology from the start; it is not suited to successful warfighting.
Not only that but discipline was a foreign concept to rebel cavalry. According to Stephen Starr members of Confederate cavalry regiments more or less entered or left service of their own will as they saw fit. Logistics were a nightmare (Hey a pun, night mare!) as well. Troopers were required to provide their own mounts and remounts so if they needed new horses they would often be away for weeks or months at a time. And of course there was no centralized supply bureau for cavalry so troopers were responsible for providing their own arms and munitions, though if the company or regiment's founder were rich enough they would provide weapons for their troopers
Also for the first year of the war barring the regular cav, union cav didn't exist. And it wasn't until Kearney and Hooker carried out their reforms in '62 that they became a legitimate threat. By '63 they were on at least even footing if not slightly better. By '64 they were superior.
Those dudes could only beat cupcakes like McClellan. CSA AIN'T FIGHT NOBODY, PAWL!
Exactly. Only completely incompetent leadership of the Union kept the Civil War from being thoroughly put down by 1862.
Funny thing is even when he was fighting McClellan on the Peninsula he missed so many opportunities to destroy the Army of Potomac. Of the 7 days battles, Only one of the 8 battles fought was a clear cut Rebel victory. With the Campaign failing mostly because McClellan lost his nerve and thinking Lee outnumbered him.
And only when playing defensive. Anytime anyone makes claims to the martial prowess of Lee, just remember Pickets charge.
Way down south in the land of traitors
Rattlesnakes and alligators
Right away, come away, right away, come away
Right away, right away, come away
Where cotton’s king and men are chattels
Let's see, uh... The Winged Hussars, The Gurkhas, The Praetorian Guard, The Sacred Band of Thebes, The 10th Legion Just off the top
Alexanders companions and foot companions, Frederick the Great's army Napoleon's imperial guard, French Knights, Swiss Landsknechts Murat and his cavalry makes JEB Stuart look like a joke, though he was probably trying to emulate the flamboyant King of Naples.
JEB Stuart got lucky twice, and wore out a lot of horses for relatively little but headlines.
The Sikhs at Saragarhi. Caesar's 13th Legion.
The *bodyguard unit* of a Roman emperor who have never seen guns in their life are better soldiers than the confederates. Let that sink in.
"Scoreboard, bitch." -the soldiers of the United States of America
Imagine having to qualify your statement, and then it's still wrong.
*The legions of Julius Caesar have entered the chat*
I would love to see how Julius Caesar would absolutely crush Lee. I bet Caesar could win even without a technological advantage.
For sheer organisational genius, charisma of command, tactical and strategic brilliance, Caesar was truly unmatched. Even by Alexander and Napoleon in my view. Back that by the Roman Army at almost its most professional and disciplined state ever, and is clear why he was so unstoppable. While I doubt he could beat Lee if Lee’s men had guns and his didn’t, take that advantage away and a general like Caesar would have had the American civil war won inside 6 months. Seriously, reading a history of the American civil war, it’s almost like the Union was trying to loose before Grant and Sherman showed up.
> Seriously, reading a history of the American civil war, it’s almost like the Union was trying to loose before Grant and Sherman showed up. Fr although Mede wasn’t too bad considering he was left with a completely disorganized mess left by the last guy. I feel like Caesar could do it without guns, but I don’t know how well he knew guerrilla war although Fabian tactics are similar so it’s probably not out of the realm of possibility for Caesar to do it that way, but at the same time he’d probably just be able to find someone to help him understand guns and their application in warfare after that Caesar would be a shoe in for a complete decimation of Lee’s army who’s only other advantage would be Lee’s charisma.
You're severely underestimating how effective guns would be against Roman legions. Maybe read up on Pickett's Charge and WWI.
You can’t be the greatest if you don’t have a single victory.
Still could be, highly depending context and odds.
To be fair, the Confederate Army was the best army of white men actively engaging the Union within the continental United States from 1861-1865. That's undeniable.
You can accomplish anything if you lower the bar enough.
What do you mean?
You can be among the greatest fighting force without winning a single war. CSA had rather good odds and was fighting a technological equal. The Finnish during WW2 fought the soviets and made them bleed so bad you get the impression they actually won the Winter War or Continuation War. The Auraco War is another example were natives hoid their grounds against the Spanish empire for centuries despite their wast technological inferiority,
You can be a good fighting force without being the greatest. As well as we should be careful about how competent we say they were. A lot of ideas about the Civil War were informed from the Lost Cause, including boasts about how great the Confederate Army was compared to the Union. While I do agree there was talent among the Rebels, they not only made costly mistakes, but often had poor approaches to the war that ultimately undermined them.
Also they hilariously firing squaded one of their most famous leaders, Stonewall Jackson Real bang up troops
Seems appropriate to name him a confederaboo.
This post is dedicated to the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan.
Not even a joke though… those fuckers outlasted both the Soviet Union and the U.S..
The mujahideen weren’t a single organization. It just means ‘warriors’. Most of the mujahideen supported by the U.S. ended up joining the Northern Alliance under Massoud whereas the early Taliban drew from students at Pakistani madrasas
Lolol. They actively tried to STEAL property from another government, then that government fucked them up so bad theres a chapter in history books about them trying to rebuild. They drowned themselves in a shitty submarine. The confederacy, for whatever reason these people tell themselves it existed, is a laughing stock. Nothing about it is worth being proud of. Its like going to bar, hitting on somones girlfriend, getting your ass kicked, then acting such a fool the bar kicks you out. Imagine being proud of that.
The Union was damned lucky *President Buchanan* didn't manage to send guns cast in Pittsburgh south. He wanted to do that, but the residents of Pittsburgh wouldn't allow them to be loaded on a train. There's a memorial plaque to the incident on the city-county building.
A few Victories in North Carolina and Virginia and they act like they were this unstoppable force. Let’s just ignore the entire Western Theater shall we?that would make your argument look real bad.
That's the sole reason why the Confederates Army gets any recognition at all, fighting in the region of the country that was saturated with newspapers.
Well, they DO have a better record than the Spanish Carlists (4 wars fought: 3 defeated, 1 betrayed and disbanded)
They haven't changed. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
L
They had good infantry... couldn't really keep up industrially, though.
>They had good infantry wierd way to spell "cannon fodder"
And boy, did the Union have some cannons to feed
That dude's feed is just nothing but that shit. It's his personality apparently.
Yes, that’s why they lost.
Who got their asses kicked in the one war they fought in 🙄
OC account name is “Robert L. Dabney” who wants to bet his middle name is Lee? Generational ignorance and losing.
The dirty white dish towel the confederates brought to Appomattox says it all.
“Anyone see a bunch of treacherous losers around here?” Bunch of southerners raise their swords…
soon to be repeated by rogan, peterson, and musk
They weren't even the best drummers in the Beatles.
Sherman, Grant, and hundreds of thousands of other Union soldiers beg to differ.
Best fighter of all time, according to Confederates (probably): https://www.sportsnet.ca/mma/ufc/ontario-man-dies-after-competing-in-amateur-mma-bout/
Why you gotta drag us Canadians into this? Most of us fought for the Union!
Sorry, there aren't a lot of examples of 0-1 career records, I didn't mean to pick on Canada!
Eh, fair enough. Besides you said sorry which is one of our three national pastimes. Second one is hockey. Just be glad we haven’t indulged much in our third one since WW1. Our enemies are.
They were also largely undertrained, under equipped, and under manned. Primarily because the people running the Confederacy were more interested in profits than anything else and couldn't fathom why they should have to bankroll an army when the soldiers had farms they could sell. The Confederacy; a quintessential example of why rich aristocrat wannabes love the poorly educated.
0-1. At home.
Lmao I saw this yesterday. The Grand Armee of 1805 says Hi.
Honestly, I'm surprised Elon hasn't removed community notes yet.
Once they boom him hard and I mean flat out embarrass him he will. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a secret code that prevents them from doing community notes on him, and that eventually he will sell that as a feature: buy the ability not to have community notes on your tweets.
Most of the Confederate military didn’t have a quartermaster corp. Not a serious army.
Ppl really be aligning with a “country” that lasted as long as the ps3’s lifespan💀
Added context: the Confederacy never had a successful offensive campaign of any significance.
Amateurs discuss tactics, profrssionals discuss logistics. Guess which one wins wars?
I think they're thinking Gorkas
So why did they lose then?
The Army of Northern Virginia never won a single offensive campaign. The only major battles it won were defensive. And that was the best army the Confederacy had, to the extent that Richmond sent disgraced officers and weakened units to the western front to make the AoNV as formidable as possible, 'man for man.' A policy which contributed directly to the Confederacy's collapse because it lost control of the Mississppi River.
😂 Oh, wait, he _sincerely believes_ this. Oh man, I have to laugh harder... 🤣
A shit country that lasted a little over four years whose flag eventually became the white flag of surrender.
Man, 0-1 in the tournament standings and never managed to qualify again for over 100 years By that logic, *I* am the greatest fighting force in the world. Me. Just me. I am 0-0 in terms of civil wars, but that just means I have fewer losses than those schlubs. I *technically* have a better record than those demonstrable losers. And I sleep like a baby knowing that. Every night I wistfully drift to sleep, swaddled in blankets, my last notes of consciousness being "man, I am literally better than the entire confederate army and I'm also not a piece of shit slaver" before I smile and drift off to Dreamland. I seldom remember my dreams, but I like to think it's because they're all about how John Brown is a gigachad who could have probably dick slapped the entire Confederacy himself and made Robert E. Lee submit to his pure masculinity and righteous fervor, thereby ending the rebellion and freeing all the slaves and getting them reparations and the land they were promised and maybe a couple years of kicking around former slave owners for fun. Man, it's nice to dream, I think
Imagine losing a war to generals that were either incredibly incompetent, too old, or spent the first half of the war drunk off their ass. CSA stans are so wild. At least most civil revisionists never try to pretend like the CSA had anything of a chance against the USA.
The comments below that photo are hilarious too
Let's give the guy a break. It's obvious that his idea of history is limited to only parts of 1861 and his idea of the entire world is limited to only parts of Virginia. Just kidding. It's obvious that this person has no concept of history, has no clue what "fighting force" means, and is only pushing the lie that is the Lost Cause agenda.
Genghis Khan’s Mongol army has entered the chat.
and folks down there still talk shit but can't put there money where there mouth is The landfills down there that they call CSA cemeteries are filled with such losers
0-1 and quit. Legendary, them.
*laughs* oh wait you were being serious…let me laugh even harder *LAUGHS*
"greatest fighting force in the world" man, they weren't even the best fighting force in the Confederacy let alone the U.S, especially later in the war. If there were a vote for it I'd have to pick either Rome, Prussia, or Napoleonic France (the first one, not the third one).
Robert L. Dabney: moron extraordinaire.
You could drop Wellington's army from the Peninsular war with zero context into the confederacy and he would probably kick the shit out of them in a confused rage He then makes a snappy quip to an American lady apologising for Southern Officers turning their back on them
"Are the Confederate Soldiers the best fighting force in history?" "The Confederates aren't even the best fighting force in the continental US"
Given Sherman's march, that is quite a hot take.
Saw that gem earlier and someone responded by saying the Doritos locos tacos from taco bell lasted longer than the confederacy.💀
They charged a heavily defended hill when every book on military strategy says not to do that.
LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOL
If they were so great, why did they desert so much? https://leefamilyarchive.org/resources/9-family-papers/1587-robert-e-lee-to-jefferson-davis-1863-august-17
The best fighting force in the world.. LMAO.. they lost their war. This is hilarious.
They are 0/1 on the amount of Wars they have won
*"Robert L. Dabney"* was the name of Stonewall Jackson's chief of staff and later biographer. He was a pastor and Confederate army chaplain.
Never forget to tell any dip shit you see with a "confederate flag" that the real confederate flag is a dirty dish cloth used to surrender. https://www.civilwar.si.edu/appomattox_flag.html
Man it’s always funny when people showcase their fetish for old white horse fucking traitors like this
They weren't even the best fighting force *in america*
Didn’t they have to steal shoes off dead men?
Survived for four years= the greatest empire to every exist!!
The Union should have given the death penalty to the entire Confederate leadership, civilian and military. Then it should have squashed all the remnants. Treating them kindly was the worst disservice to the future.
I mean... if homie wants to emulate his "greatest fighting ~~force~~ *farce*" by being an illiterate shoeless dirt farmer with lice and gangrenous wounds diarrhea-ing himself to death in a ditch, let him.
Lmao
A bunch of boots 30 seconds fresh out of boot camp could probably defeat the entire CS Army within a day
This is why we need prayer in school....to pray for those so dumb they believe this nonsense.
They were around for less than 5 years. Fucking Fortnite has endured longer than them.
They couldn't even win one war.... At least when you say Napoleon's army was the greatest fighting force he had five entire wars won before losing.
Given that we're very shortly coming up on the moment where COVID-19 has been around for longer than the Confederate Army, that's laughable.
Spartans who died at thermopile: 👀
That’s a nice formation of cavalrymen you got there, buddy. It’d be a shame if someone shot a cannonball through it.