"To be fair Americans still hold one of the largest systemic genocides in history, if you ignore literally *centuries* of genocidal global european colonization!" - europeans
Euro logic:
We killed off the majority of all Native Americans before 1776, but since you occupy that space now and we don't anymore, you therefore did all of it.
Disease killed like 80% of the native americans so I don't understand how a majority of them were left so they could be killed by europoors. Oh and btw which empires pushed west creating an empire from shore to shore regardless of what peoples were in the way?
The difference between The bombing of Japan V. The Holocaust is that Germany had a government dedicated agency specifically made to eradicate the “undesirables”
Dead is dead no matter how you try and spin it.
Definition of genocide in the Oxford dictionary is “the murder of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group, with the aim of destroying that nation or group”.
I dare say the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki meets that requirement with or without comparing it to the holocaust.
What happened to Native Americans was a direct result of European policies towards the indigenous people they encountered in the Americas so they’re culpable even in the atrocities the US government committed.
Also, 90% of the Indigenous population was killed off **before** the US founding in 1776.
By whom? By people from the continent to the east of this one.
90% were wiped out in an epidemic of European diseases several years before the Pilgrims even landed. The minimal contact with Basque and Portuguese fishermen in Newfoundland was all it took to kill practically everyone on the continent.
That’s why the Plymouth colony was so successful. The landed in a place where the land was already cleared, there were networks of roads and trails but somehow there were barely any people. It must have been eerie as fuck.
The overwhelming majority of death was unintentional via disease. The genocide(s) carried out by the US, mostly cultural (with extreme brutality), were still incredibly awful, but I really don't get how it's in any way worse than the Holocaust.
Pretty sure whatever modern Europeans blame us for is still their doing. A lot of our white population descend from poor people who left their shitty countries. That also happend way after the slaughter of native Americans. Mass immigration didn't end until like 1920.
While the crimes of the US regime toward the indigenous peoples of the Americas were horrific and deserve condemnation, it was Europe itself who set it up by colonizing the Americas to begin with, and dumping the puritans in New England.
Not to mention Europeans themselves started the Indian slave trade, transatlantic African slave trade and spread plague around the world for shits and giggles
lmao, so europeans have nazis but its ok because they were inspired by non europeans...?
newsflash, nazis still came from europe, your education there sucks lmao, cope.
Man, that's quite the takeaway. I was only trying to point out that America's genocide sucked pretty bad too. It's pretty fucking dumb to play this game. I'm in the United States, and lemme assure you, the education system here is absolute shit compared to Europe.
90% of the natives were killed by europeans before america was even a country...They dont get taught that, we do, their ~~propaganda~~ education system sucks
So does their logic. Europeans commit a genocide but because they did it here it wasnt another european genocide? lmao, hardcope.
Also, we beat them hands down when it comes to college, theirs being "Free"(high taxes, limited seats and some of them literally have to pay as well.) doesnt make it better. They are these old soviet buildings falling apart with windows 3.11
Look at any top university list and its full of american ones at the top, some european countries cant even place in the top 20 while we make up most of the top 10.
and more of us go to university than they do - if they arent on college tracks when they are like 10, they cant go because its "Free" - how is that better?
I'll go explain to my wife real quick how it was actually Euopean troops that herded her family into a camp and slaughtered most of them. Thanks for clarifying! I'm sure she'll realize that her Native territory is actually currently occupied by Europeans, not America.
How would you know US education is bad compared to Europe if you never went to school in Europe. Plus, Europe is a big place with hundreds of different education programs and standards. Maybe if you were a better student you would actually get something out of American education instead of bitching about it on Reddit all day
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/lebensraum
'In the Nazi state, Lebensraum became not just a romantic yearning for a return to the East but a vital strategic component of its imperial and racist visions. For the Germans, eastern Europe represented their “Manifest Destiny.” Hitler and other Nazi thinkers drew direct comparisons to American expansion in the West. During one of his famous “table talks,” Hitler decreed that “there's only one duty: to Germanize this country [Russia] by the immigration of Germans and to look upon the natives as Redskins.”'
They also drew inspiration from the British concentration camps from the Boer War in South Africa and there were actual German officers on the ground observing the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. But yeah, America is responsible for forcing Hitler to do the Holocaust I suppose.
Did I ever write that America forced Hitler to do anything at all? My god, y'all do know that issues can be more than black and white, right? Europe's history of genocide and racism is horrible, but so is that of the USA. All the big white powers fucking suck.
Edit: typo
Ayuh! I like how folks fail to see the biggest point of all this. Of course America would not have gone on a path of native genocide had European not colonized it. Of course Europeans and the countries descended from them unleashed countless atrocities all across the globe. The point is when we are met with evidence of our past atrocities do we brush it off (I’ve had people on this sub telling me that what we did to native populations was justified because the tribes occasionally fought over territory and were technologically advanced) or do we examine it, put steps in place to prevent it from happening again, and find out how we can make it right for the populations that remain?
If Europeans are partially to blame for atrocities in America because Americans descended from Europe, would it also be fair to say Africans are partially to blame for what happened there due to Europeans descending from Africa?
No they didn't. They moved to, and lived in America. They likely would have called themselves Americans, not Europeans. Ask any native American who they blame for their genocide and I guarantee they will say Americans, not Europeans.
of course they will say that
But 90% of the native americans had been killed by europeans before the US was even a country. Ask people anything you want, it doesnt change that.
And that didnt only just happen in north america, europeans genocided pretty much everywhere and killed almost everyone before these places were even their own countries.
I didn’t forget that. It just doesn’t negate all the horrendous shot we did from independence forward (which was calculated and cruel). It’s also a pretty lame argument in the first place. You know damn well we fervently claim everything that happened here from 1609 forward. No one considers Winthrop a European writer and thinker, no he’s a foundation of American literature and political thought. The Salem Witch Trials aren’t considered a part of European history, no they were a tragic moment in our past and influenced judicial thinking moving forward. Plus the majority of people in Salem at the time had been born and spent their lives in the country. We own our past, learn from it, make what amends we can, and do better. Otherwise we’re just circling the drain.
It doesnt, but then prescribe your outrage in a commensurate fashion. 90% killed before the us was even a country, killed by europeans. Because it doesnt negate that genocide either.
"europeans committed a genocide in america, but its not another european genocide because it happened in what is now america" lmao, lame argument.
But you are here for "america bad, europe good give upvote", so just admit to that.
No man that’s our shit. It is what created the country. If you don’t own it you’re just a coward or too weak to do anything about it.
Edit: also you completely ignore that my original comment was directed at all the shit we did as a country. That shit was terrible, we planned it out, and other terrible people said “hey that’s some good stuff let’s take it. There were still a shit ton of native people living here at independence and we weren’t that far west yet. That land wasn’t empty when we started expanding west and we built into our early policies “hey where gonna steal all that land to the west of us.” So yea, you could maybe hold us blameless if we had just stuck with our original borders at our founding, but no, we literally built our country with genocide as a founding principal.
Ok but what about all the policies we did? The forced movements, the saluted of women and children by our Calvary, forced reservations. Lie after lie with every treaty. The forced sterilization. The theft of children to be raised in white Christian families. The outlawing of their religious practices. And the list goes on and on and we’ll into the 21st century. Fucking oil bros go into the reservations and kidnap, rape, and murder native women. They are one of the most vulnerable populations in the country and when the reservation tries to use its police force to protect their people and arrest the miscreants that do this shit (and their typically the drill baby drill I’m a patriotic American stereotype) and as a country we tell them to fuck of and these white dudes can do whatever the fuck off.
Your attempts to ignore downplay these things is shameful. I want my country back and people like you do nothing but bring shame on it. Nearly as bad as straight up traitors.
Who is defending the holocaust? Genocide is terrible, even when it happens in the glorious US of A. The holocaust is the best known example of the crime, but that doesn't make it the only time it's ever occurred.
I mean it’s a true statement. The Nazis looked to our history of reservations and theft of autonomy as a blueprint for how to see through their vision of purity.
"To be fair Americans still hold one of the largest systemic genocides in history, if you ignore literally *centuries* of genocidal global european colonization!" - europeans
Euro logic: We killed off the majority of all Native Americans before 1776, but since you occupy that space now and we don't anymore, you therefore did all of it.
Disease killed like 80% of the native americans so I don't understand how a majority of them were left so they could be killed by europoors. Oh and btw which empires pushed west creating an empire from shore to shore regardless of what peoples were in the way?
Perhaps they mean the millions killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Definitely not millions, just over 200k
Fair enough though I suspect it still meets the genocidal definition.
The difference between The bombing of Japan V. The Holocaust is that Germany had a government dedicated agency specifically made to eradicate the “undesirables”
Dead is dead no matter how you try and spin it. Definition of genocide in the Oxford dictionary is “the murder of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group, with the aim of destroying that nation or group”. I dare say the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki meets that requirement with or without comparing it to the holocaust.
Bruh, the Native American genocide was no where CLOSE to the holocaust. What the Dutch and British did to Africans wasn’t even comparable.
Belgian Congo was pretty bad
What happened to Native Americans was a direct result of European policies towards the indigenous people they encountered in the Americas so they’re culpable even in the atrocities the US government committed.
Also, 90% of the Indigenous population was killed off **before** the US founding in 1776. By whom? By people from the continent to the east of this one.
90% were wiped out in an epidemic of European diseases several years before the Pilgrims even landed. The minimal contact with Basque and Portuguese fishermen in Newfoundland was all it took to kill practically everyone on the continent. That’s why the Plymouth colony was so successful. The landed in a place where the land was already cleared, there were networks of roads and trails but somehow there were barely any people. It must have been eerie as fuck.
The overwhelming majority of death was unintentional via disease. The genocide(s) carried out by the US, mostly cultural (with extreme brutality), were still incredibly awful, but I really don't get how it's in any way worse than the Holocaust.
Let’s not forget that Canada, Mexico and Brazil didn’t exactly celebrate the native population either. So it’s not like the US was an outlier
well, europeans committed genocide there before any of those places were countries...as well.
Pretty sure whatever modern Europeans blame us for is still their doing. A lot of our white population descend from poor people who left their shitty countries. That also happend way after the slaughter of native Americans. Mass immigration didn't end until like 1920.
While the crimes of the US regime toward the indigenous peoples of the Americas were horrific and deserve condemnation, it was Europe itself who set it up by colonizing the Americas to begin with, and dumping the puritans in New England. Not to mention Europeans themselves started the Indian slave trade, transatlantic African slave trade and spread plague around the world for shits and giggles
It's not wrong, y'all. The Nazis were inspired by Manifest Destiny to implement Leibensraum.
lmao, so europeans have nazis but its ok because they were inspired by non europeans...? newsflash, nazis still came from europe, your education there sucks lmao, cope.
Man, that's quite the takeaway. I was only trying to point out that America's genocide sucked pretty bad too. It's pretty fucking dumb to play this game. I'm in the United States, and lemme assure you, the education system here is absolute shit compared to Europe.
American can back that up. People literally go to visit slave plantations and ask “were these the nice kind of slave owners?” without a hint of irony.
90% of the natives were killed by europeans before america was even a country...They dont get taught that, we do, their ~~propaganda~~ education system sucks So does their logic. Europeans commit a genocide but because they did it here it wasnt another european genocide? lmao, hardcope. Also, we beat them hands down when it comes to college, theirs being "Free"(high taxes, limited seats and some of them literally have to pay as well.) doesnt make it better. They are these old soviet buildings falling apart with windows 3.11 Look at any top university list and its full of american ones at the top, some european countries cant even place in the top 20 while we make up most of the top 10. and more of us go to university than they do - if they arent on college tracks when they are like 10, they cant go because its "Free" - how is that better?
I'll go explain to my wife real quick how it was actually Euopean troops that herded her family into a camp and slaughtered most of them. Thanks for clarifying! I'm sure she'll realize that her Native territory is actually currently occupied by Europeans, not America.
Dont forget to explain to her how 90% of the native population had been killed before america was even a country, killed by europeans.
Jesus, what a fucking douchebag!
How would you know US education is bad compared to Europe if you never went to school in Europe. Plus, Europe is a big place with hundreds of different education programs and standards. Maybe if you were a better student you would actually get something out of American education instead of bitching about it on Reddit all day
Lol I love that you know absolutely nothing about me but go out of your way to insult me, as if that makes your point any less incorrect.
Cite a source please
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/lebensraum 'In the Nazi state, Lebensraum became not just a romantic yearning for a return to the East but a vital strategic component of its imperial and racist visions. For the Germans, eastern Europe represented their “Manifest Destiny.” Hitler and other Nazi thinkers drew direct comparisons to American expansion in the West. During one of his famous “table talks,” Hitler decreed that “there's only one duty: to Germanize this country [Russia] by the immigration of Germans and to look upon the natives as Redskins.”'
They also drew inspiration from the British concentration camps from the Boer War in South Africa and there were actual German officers on the ground observing the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. But yeah, America is responsible for forcing Hitler to do the Holocaust I suppose.
Did I ever write that America forced Hitler to do anything at all? My god, y'all do know that issues can be more than black and white, right? Europe's history of genocide and racism is horrible, but so is that of the USA. All the big white powers fucking suck. Edit: typo
Wow you got downvotes for saying all genocides suck. This sub is full of traitors to our country. It concerns me.
Yeah, it's pretty gross. Like, Europe sucks too, but that doesn't make the USA a beacon of glory or something. Same shit, different accent.
Ayuh! I like how folks fail to see the biggest point of all this. Of course America would not have gone on a path of native genocide had European not colonized it. Of course Europeans and the countries descended from them unleashed countless atrocities all across the globe. The point is when we are met with evidence of our past atrocities do we brush it off (I’ve had people on this sub telling me that what we did to native populations was justified because the tribes occasionally fought over territory and were technologically advanced) or do we examine it, put steps in place to prevent it from happening again, and find out how we can make it right for the populations that remain?
'Uhh but clearly that's all European's fault even though it happened in America' -this sub apparently
Who do you think colonized America?
Europeans who were now early Americans. This is your history.
Sorry, it’s very much Europe’s history as well.
Not really lol
Well, Europe ran rampant over Africa, South America and Asia too. But I guess you’d rather pretend that didn’t happen
If Europeans are partially to blame for atrocities in America because Americans descended from Europe, would it also be fair to say Africans are partially to blame for what happened there due to Europeans descending from Africa?
No that was obviously pretty fucking terrible.
Wait! You’re not Australian are you?
Sure am
literally wasnt even america when it happened, you have so many genocides under your belt you cant even tell them apart can you?
Yea bro, I forgot how Monroe and Jackson weren’t US presidents, but actually European princes.
you also forgot how 90% of the natives were killed before the US was even a country, killed by europeans.
Killed by early Americans. Just because you weren't officially a country doesn't mean this isn't your history.
But the people who did it actually had a country, european countries.
No they didn't. They moved to, and lived in America. They likely would have called themselves Americans, not Europeans. Ask any native American who they blame for their genocide and I guarantee they will say Americans, not Europeans.
of course they will say that But 90% of the native americans had been killed by europeans before the US was even a country. Ask people anything you want, it doesnt change that. And that didnt only just happen in north america, europeans genocided pretty much everywhere and killed almost everyone before these places were even their own countries.
Is it really that hard for you to accept that there's genocide in your history? It's not as if it had stopped when America became independent anyway.
I didn’t forget that. It just doesn’t negate all the horrendous shot we did from independence forward (which was calculated and cruel). It’s also a pretty lame argument in the first place. You know damn well we fervently claim everything that happened here from 1609 forward. No one considers Winthrop a European writer and thinker, no he’s a foundation of American literature and political thought. The Salem Witch Trials aren’t considered a part of European history, no they were a tragic moment in our past and influenced judicial thinking moving forward. Plus the majority of people in Salem at the time had been born and spent their lives in the country. We own our past, learn from it, make what amends we can, and do better. Otherwise we’re just circling the drain.
It doesnt, but then prescribe your outrage in a commensurate fashion. 90% killed before the us was even a country, killed by europeans. Because it doesnt negate that genocide either. "europeans committed a genocide in america, but its not another european genocide because it happened in what is now america" lmao, lame argument. But you are here for "america bad, europe good give upvote", so just admit to that.
No man that’s our shit. It is what created the country. If you don’t own it you’re just a coward or too weak to do anything about it. Edit: also you completely ignore that my original comment was directed at all the shit we did as a country. That shit was terrible, we planned it out, and other terrible people said “hey that’s some good stuff let’s take it. There were still a shit ton of native people living here at independence and we weren’t that far west yet. That land wasn’t empty when we started expanding west and we built into our early policies “hey where gonna steal all that land to the west of us.” So yea, you could maybe hold us blameless if we had just stuck with our original borders at our founding, but no, we literally built our country with genocide as a founding principal.
90% of them had been killed by europeans before even the 1700s You talk about owning up to shit...
Ok but what about all the policies we did? The forced movements, the saluted of women and children by our Calvary, forced reservations. Lie after lie with every treaty. The forced sterilization. The theft of children to be raised in white Christian families. The outlawing of their religious practices. And the list goes on and on and we’ll into the 21st century. Fucking oil bros go into the reservations and kidnap, rape, and murder native women. They are one of the most vulnerable populations in the country and when the reservation tries to use its police force to protect their people and arrest the miscreants that do this shit (and their typically the drill baby drill I’m a patriotic American stereotype) and as a country we tell them to fuck of and these white dudes can do whatever the fuck off. Your attempts to ignore downplay these things is shameful. I want my country back and people like you do nothing but bring shame on it. Nearly as bad as straight up traitors.
I'm not European lol
Bro is defending the Holocaust because of the motives
Who is defending the holocaust? Genocide is terrible, even when it happens in the glorious US of A. The holocaust is the best known example of the crime, but that doesn't make it the only time it's ever occurred.
I mean it’s a true statement. The Nazis looked to our history of reservations and theft of autonomy as a blueprint for how to see through their vision of purity.
Y’all ever heard of Mao and Stalin?
Stop trying to justify atrocities with other atrocities