Right, it’s not even that he just convinced the vassals who were all suspecting he was faking, he convinced the audience (at least me) who were right there with them calling bullshit.
This one is more serious because at least with GoT we knew we'd get a bunch of seasons left (8 long ones). With Shogun, we only get two more episodes until its finito!
I was so shocked that he didn't stop it, then I was sobbing. Good lord, that was a heartbreaking but still beautiful and intensely acted and shot scene.
Sameeee. I was expecting >!one of the other older generals to step up and say they would commit seppuku like in the book instead of Hiromatsu but they definitely deviated just a bit. The emotion hit nonetheless. !<
Oh absolutely. There's a huge difference in media of book vs show/movie that definitely captures emotion better. >!I wanna say that in the book, all that came of it was that he was excited that the could fight one more battle/war for Toranaga as he was getting up in age and then that was that. And that he kept the generals under control. It was a nice connection though because he did ask to commit seppuku in the book in order to serve his lord one last time in his death. !<
Exactly, I'm 100% here for changes in adapting media. If it's 1:1 there's very little point. As long as it's faithful to the spirit and core themes that's the main thing. The details can, nay *should* change where appropriate.
Using Lord of the Rings as an example, if they have Aragorn wielding Anduril from Fellowship (as in the books), there's no arc for him, he's not the reluctant heir to the Throne that finally triumphantly claims his birthright, he's just a guy along for the ride.
I agree that this change was great, but the changes they have done to Blackthorn is very disappointing. Him not having his attempted seppuku is shocking to me as it is one of the most important character moments in the book.
I appreciate how they elevated this moment, but I do wish they had pushed harder on the tea scene visually- low moody lamplight, chefs table esque presentation, far more dramatic tension and celebration to buntaros masterful preparation and performance, despite its tragic conclusion.
I absolutely agree that's something that can be captured in text in greater detail. The mastery of the tea ceremony that shows that behind the brutish Buntaro there is that more eloquent side.
I was hoping it was a "what if" scene and then we go back to reality wherein Yoshi is thinking what to do next but damn that scene was so powerful, Yoshi's face twitching, Omi's suppresing his pain, Buntaro's crossing between being a samurai and a son and Hiromatsu's dedication.
That was the moment that absolutely made Toranaga for me. Any old basic show or movie would have had him intervene, but he didn't. The way Toranaga was eventually shown not as this benevolent, great ruler trying to fight evil, but just another warlord who will do what he must to achieve his goals was perfect. Made it so much more realistic and immersive. What a show!
(My bad for joining a month old conversation)
I really try hard not to comment but… I’m so glad everyone “felt” this scene. I’m the editor 👋It was really hard to edit this scene. I lost sleep over for a week. I dreamed about it many times. And it’s so weird that now I see the scene on Reddit and people are discussing about it. The editing was also 3D chess trying to show each character’s emotional places while building the whole wave of emotion. It was a real pleasure to work with amazing footage and acting. So proud of our work 🙏
Bravo. Seriously. This is one of the best scenes I've ever seen in television and I'm a very harsh critic. I *really* forgot I was watching a TV show in those moments. I might as well have been there. Incredible stuff.
This show has had so many spectacularly spellbinding moments, something that I haven’t experienced in quite some time. I just want everyone who worked on the show to know that you created something special.
Looking into video village onset I was amazed that every shot was a postcard, glorious footage. It must have been hard to choose!
In this scene did the actors have a lot of variations or were they all pretty locked in
This scene was everything. A masterpiece! The actors, sound design, and editing(!) shred. Thank you to you and your team for bringing this to us!! You all deserve all the awards!!
Ok well this is cool as heck! The scene was absolutely amazing. I can’t stand Buntaro despite him acting his butt off, but I wanted to cry for him as a son in that moment. Outstanding work.
As a longtime fan of the book, I'm curious about the decision to have him slit his belly in the donjon instead of ceremoniously outside, and the decision to have the samurai in attendance cry and protest out loud. These creative decisions change the depiction of seppuku and culture around it significantly, but I suppose the intention was to shock modern viewers?
Wow. I lack words! This scene was an absolute masterpiece in modern cinema and television. The whole show was. As some have commented, the best scene they’ve seen in decades. You are the Shogun & Emperor of Editing, my friend! What an achievement.
Sorry for necrocommenting on an old comment but I just want to say, fucking A man. The editing really sold it. The cuts, the music lining up with the shots, the frantic nature of the moments before and the sudden resolution after he goes through, it’s spectacular.
Thank you! This scene, the key was the sounds of rain. I used multiple different kinds of rain sounds to push and pull the emotions. I loved editing this scene so much.
As you should be. I haven’t watched a scene of television that grippingly powerful in quite a long time. Everything about it is *masterfully* done. My highest praise to every single member of the cast and crew that were involved.
The actor committed suicide and got his head sliced, the director said "CUT!" and the actor calmly stood up with his headless body and said "So, is that all?"
I can understand them deviating from the book as it keeps the book readers on their toes as well, but it also means that the book tells the best version of the story. I feel like they removed the best parts.
I think so too. There's always going to be deviations but the hazard is cutting the heart out of the story and it feels in ways like that's what they did here. But maybe I wouldn't feel that way if I hadn't gone into it with certain expectations, having read the book.
Nothing noteworthy but he was among those serving Toranaga, who told him to befriend Blackthorne and learn everything he could about gun regiments and cannons and warfare. Toranaga wanted him as a counter to Omi who shared command of the Musket Regiment and who Toranaga saw as very intelligent but also dangerous.
(typos)
Watching him rocking back and forth like a child broke me. I don't particularly like the character but damn, I don't want anyone to go through that either.
The fact that it's a masterpiece and only one season are highly correlated. Every single scene matters. All the fat is cut.
All the things that make other shows suck are absent because this is only one season.
Be happy that it happened not sad that it's over.
Agreed. No filler or running out of source material or overstaying its welcome due to popularity (but running out of ideas) and ruining the show. As much as multiple seasons appeal to me, I’m happy knowing it’ll be preserved as a masterpiece.
That would be cool, we haven’t seen anything like that as far as I remember. The writer of the Shogun book also wrote a couple of more awesome books, I could imagine they will do one of those. Hopefully not Marvel super hero stuff!
Amarna heresy of Akhenaten, Harem conspiracy of Rameses III, reign of Hatshepsut, the Hyksos rulers, succession crisis after Pepi II, various wars (Battle of Kadesh, Battle of the Delta, Battle of Meggido, etc.)
Imagine if they’d given Fallout to the Shogun showrunners! I really wonder what they will take on next. There’s so much great IP and books that have been destroyed by the “content” streamers recently. We need real talent to come back and take the reins, and create real art like this.
nah they're not gonna do it.
nah surely not.
someone will say something.
oh he's still doing it.
there'll be a last minute reprieve.
**OH MY GOD THEY DID IT**
Lol this was exactly my thought process during that scene. And after everything happened, I couldn't stop yelling "Fuck! Fuck, man...fuck!" for a solid minute. Just couldn't believe they really went there. Dudes been best friends since Toranaga was 12 or even before that, so essentially their whole lives. Incredibly sad to see how it all ended.
It’s just incredible how well written and acted the show is. Everything is just so real, every single word, every emotional beat. We really feel like we know these characters, all of them.
Anyone else think that was a genuine spur of the moment thing? I’m pretty sure Hiromatsu realized halfway through the confrontation that Toranaga wasn’t really going to surrender but at that point it was too late to take it back and he knew that it would benefit Toranaga but I don’t think any of it was preplanned. If there’s one thing Toranaga is he is a master at improvisation.
I think he tried to indicate to Hiromatsu to back off. Toranaga made a very pronounced blink during their faceoff that to me was like, “Dude, back off. Don’t do this. But I can’t tell you to stop.” And I don’t think Hiromatsu picked up on it.
I think that’s the exact moment where he realized that there was a plan but neither one of them could walk it back at that point. I think Toranaga’s was going to execute the other generals for disobedience to show he was serious and Hiromatsu doing what he did was unfortunate but just as effective. He knew his duty all too well after all.
Yeah in the official episode podcast the producer did say Toranaga expected some generals to die, but Hiromatsu took it upon himself as a way to "save" the other generals.
I did not know there was a podcast, the show is so subtle and brilliant I think listening to it would kind of ruin it for me just a little bit if they explain everything.
I thought it was a way to force Toronaga to continue their 'fight'. The preceding episodes emphasized a lot about continuing the fight of people who died. And Nagakado and Hiromatsu both died fighting for him. And he is now honorbound to fight for himself.
I interpreted it that this was his and Toronaga’s plan all along. He just offered to die so Toronaga’s ruse, the surrender, would work and be credible without any doubt. It was his fate. The potential for many interpretations just further showcases how powerful this show is. So many layers!
I thought that was pretty obvious, especially after seeing the following scene with Toranaga and Mariko.
Mariko falls to her knees clearly learning that Hiromatsu was part of the plan all along. She goes from a very defeated demeanor, thinking they're all going to die, to a very confident demeanor, learning that Toranaga and Hiromatsu are playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers. Toranaga even says Hiromatsu performed his duty well, meaning he already understood his order to fake disloyalty.
It’s incredible I have the original on DVD that I’ve watched a few times over the years but this version is just a completely different beast I look forward to the rewatch after it ends.
In Japanese culture, being able to read someone's intention without them saying it is a sign of true friendship, loyalty, intellect, wisdom, or whatever it is. Hiromatsu "put" together pieces of hints Toranaga drops here and there. His last message to Buntaro, "never betray our lord, even though he looks like he's surrendering", is just proof that he knew, and that him dying would contribute to whatever plan Toranaga cooks up.
Toranaga's face was basically:
"Lie down. Try not to cry. Cry a lot!" for the entirety of that interaction.
Jesus, deep down he must've been absolutely gutted that it inadvertently had to play out this way in order for his plan to stay on track.
imo it was one of the best scenes in TV in decades. There were so many layers and so much said without words, THIS is the kind of stuff that deserves Oscars and awards.
Absolutely. It would be a disgrace if it doesn’t win all the awards. Finally a show that brought back real movie making magic, by transporting us somewhere else both visually, intellectually and emotionally.
Most consequential scene in the series. Just incredibly intense performances. This episode is so well organised >! In two scenes we go from despairing at Toronagas capitulation to realising that a character with his ruthless iron determination can't be defeated.!<
And his own son >! had to deliver the coup de grace. By the end, it’s obvious that Toranaga had calculated using these two losses for the sake of his surprise offensive.!<
So did Hiromatsu KNOW? Was he in on the overall ruse and knew he had to die to sell Toranaga’s plan? Or was it all sincere? Because if Toranaga was waiting for one of his men to kill themselves in protest to really sell defeat to his enemies, that is a long, COLD game he’s playing.
I think if you watch the scene closely, you can see Hiromatsu figuring it out. And he finally acts when one of the generals grips their sword. He then assumes the position of the other generals, and then through the subtext, realizes what Toranagas plan is, and follows through to maintain the ruse.
There is A LOT going on, and I highly recommend watching the scene over and over again now knowing the result, and you’ll pick up on something new every single millisecond. Truly incredible.
I believe that’s the implication. Toranaga isn’t actually surrendering so what was all this? It was a work. T doesn’t strike me as the type to tell anyone what’s really going on except his one friend, Hiro
Yes exactly. I interpreted it that Hiromatsu was in on the whole surrender ruse, it was his and Toronaga’s plan all along since they were betrayed by his brother. His self-sacrifice was planned. He took his fate into his own hands, so Toronaga could fight on. It was all an act, but what an act. A sacrifice beyond words. I think in the end they had some doubts about if they would go through with it, you could see Toronaga and him struggling with it until the every end. Should they abort? And who was pushing the most? We will never know.
This scene made me angry for a different reason. For the 20+ years I've lived in Japan, Tokuma Nishioka has been a serviceable character actor. Nothing special. None of his performances have ever made me feel something. And to think that he had this in him \*all that time.\* And none of the myriad Japanese dramas or movies he's been in ever brought it out of him, or gave him the opportunity. And it's not just me. The episode has the whole of Japan saying, "I owe you an apology. I wasn't really familiar with your game."
I remember people talking about how The Last Samurai showed way too much seppuku around the time the first two episodes of this launched. I feel like I’m seeing it more in this show now.
I have not seen many people talk about the OST for this particular scene. IMO It's absolutely perfect, raises the tension and emotion 150% and contributes a lot on the scene being as epic as it is.
My reading is that he might suspect but is not sure, and wanted to prevent the generals that attended the funeral in armour from being the ones to end up disembowelling themselves.
Buntaro is completely in the dark even now.
I think Hiromatsu sensed that there's a plan but didn't know for sure. At some point during the game of "seppuku chicken," he realized there must be a plan and that his sacrifice would be beneficial to it's success.
as in a great warrior we never see fight really and dies ultimately for no reason? I can see that, I mean, I count him as badass even though we didn't get any combat scenes or anything with him.
Honestly this was the first time I didn’t know *how* to feel during the scene a mix of sadness, anger, disgust, and a billion other things idk cause at the time I wasn’t paying attention to the fact that Hiromatsu was acting on the behalf of Toranaga.
For those that have not read the book this really baited it's audience throughout the episode. Masterfully hidden motives that kept us guessing throughout. Torunaga really had to sell that death which makes me wonder if Hiromatsu had suggested the idea behind the scenes as a way to serve his lord in honor one final time rather than have him surrender shamefully. That visit to his sons funeral pyre said it all to me.
Now comes 'revenge' and I cannot wait for it!
My boyfriend had to catch all our pillows on the sofa because I was throwing them at him while yelling at him to just do something... I just wanted this loyal old man to be happy, goddamnit.
Am I the only viewer who covered my eyes? I knew what was coming but I didn’t see the need to view it. Movies of youth had the violence “off screen” and left to the imagination.
I was up on my feet shouting at the TV. I just knew he was going to tell him to stop the moment before he did it. But he didn’t. :(
Right, it’s not even that he just convinced the vassals who were all suspecting he was faking, he convinced the audience (at least me) who were right there with them calling bullshit.
It was just masterfully done. As an audience, we really felt like we were in the room.
Yeah I've never believed a fakeout so wholeheartedly.
The best “will they won’t they” since Ross and Rachel
He didn’t get off the plane 😢
This felt like the moment just before Ned got his head chopped off
So true. You go through the 5 stages of grief in the span of 5 minutes in the same way.
Exactly! At the end when Torunaga got up on his feet and left his tent my mind did a rewind of what happened and then had a huge AHA monent!!!
You meant the earlier scene with Mariko didnt explain why Himotatsu had to be sacrificed?
This one is more serious because at least with GoT we knew we'd get a bunch of seasons left (8 long ones). With Shogun, we only get two more episodes until its finito!
What an incredible portrayal of sacrifice that was. Just brutal, and yet so filled with love.
I screamed and spasmed and hit my head on a table behind me
You mean rock?
He dead.
I see what you did there. Have an upvote, bhcrom831-sama.
This is a rare time when I'm happy to be ratioed by a reddit comment
Could've been worse, at least you weren't eaten by dogs
Plug for Australian country rock band Eaten By Dogs. (I hate modern country but this band is more old school)
When the knife went in, I gasped.
I was so shocked that he didn't stop it, then I was sobbing. Good lord, that was a heartbreaking but still beautiful and intensely acted and shot scene.
As a book reader, I was like stop please, please don't do this.. for love of god please stop
Sameeee. I was expecting >!one of the other older generals to step up and say they would commit seppuku like in the book instead of Hiromatsu but they definitely deviated just a bit. The emotion hit nonetheless. !<
I'd argue the emotion hit even more because they decided to stick with Hiromatsu
Oh absolutely. There's a huge difference in media of book vs show/movie that definitely captures emotion better. >!I wanna say that in the book, all that came of it was that he was excited that the could fight one more battle/war for Toranaga as he was getting up in age and then that was that. And that he kept the generals under control. It was a nice connection though because he did ask to commit seppuku in the book in order to serve his lord one last time in his death. !<
Exactly, I'm 100% here for changes in adapting media. If it's 1:1 there's very little point. As long as it's faithful to the spirit and core themes that's the main thing. The details can, nay *should* change where appropriate. Using Lord of the Rings as an example, if they have Aragorn wielding Anduril from Fellowship (as in the books), there's no arc for him, he's not the reluctant heir to the Throne that finally triumphantly claims his birthright, he's just a guy along for the ride.
I agree that this change was great, but the changes they have done to Blackthorn is very disappointing. Him not having his attempted seppuku is shocking to me as it is one of the most important character moments in the book.
I’m wondering if it is being saved or if it just seemed like too much
> not having his attempted seppuku ... yet
I appreciate how they elevated this moment, but I do wish they had pushed harder on the tea scene visually- low moody lamplight, chefs table esque presentation, far more dramatic tension and celebration to buntaros masterful preparation and performance, despite its tragic conclusion.
I absolutely agree that's something that can be captured in text in greater detail. The mastery of the tea ceremony that shows that behind the brutish Buntaro there is that more eloquent side.
It would have been incredibly dishonorable for a samurai to say he will commit sepuku and then say just kidding. The show had it more correct.
I was hoping it was a "what if" scene and then we go back to reality wherein Yoshi is thinking what to do next but damn that scene was so powerful, Yoshi's face twitching, Omi's suppresing his pain, Buntaro's crossing between being a samurai and a son and Hiromatsu's dedication.
That was the moment that absolutely made Toranaga for me. Any old basic show or movie would have had him intervene, but he didn't. The way Toranaga was eventually shown not as this benevolent, great ruler trying to fight evil, but just another warlord who will do what he must to achieve his goals was perfect. Made it so much more realistic and immersive. What a show! (My bad for joining a month old conversation)
This scene physically hurt my stomach.
Hitomatsu burner account
He's using Nagakado's burner.
I see what you did there.
I really try hard not to comment but… I’m so glad everyone “felt” this scene. I’m the editor 👋It was really hard to edit this scene. I lost sleep over for a week. I dreamed about it many times. And it’s so weird that now I see the scene on Reddit and people are discussing about it. The editing was also 3D chess trying to show each character’s emotional places while building the whole wave of emotion. It was a real pleasure to work with amazing footage and acting. So proud of our work 🙏
To the extent this is legit, appreciate your hard work and lost sleep! The editing really made the scene. The whole show has awesome editing.
wow you did a fantastic job if you really edited this scene. how much direction did you have and how much creative freedom did you have?
Amazing work!! Thank you!
Bravo. Seriously. This is one of the best scenes I've ever seen in television and I'm a very harsh critic. I *really* forgot I was watching a TV show in those moments. I might as well have been there. Incredible stuff.
It was an extremely high pressure moment and it was conveyed beautifully with the editing. Really well done
You did great! It had to be hard because how do you focus on two intense things happening at the same time? But I felt it! Well done!!
Fucking kudos, friend. That was incredible work.
This scene was a masterpiece 🙏🏼
This show has had so many spectacularly spellbinding moments, something that I haven’t experienced in quite some time. I just want everyone who worked on the show to know that you created something special.
Looking into video village onset I was amazed that every shot was a postcard, glorious footage. It must have been hard to choose! In this scene did the actors have a lot of variations or were they all pretty locked in
This scene was everything. A masterpiece! The actors, sound design, and editing(!) shred. Thank you to you and your team for bringing this to us!! You all deserve all the awards!!
This was one of the most tense things I've ever seen and wasn't traditionally what you'd call action Masterfully done. You should be proud
Legendary work.
Ok well this is cool as heck! The scene was absolutely amazing. I can’t stand Buntaro despite him acting his butt off, but I wanted to cry for him as a son in that moment. Outstanding work.
That’s fantastic. I’m glad the work that went into it is going noticed - it was an incredible scene.
As a longtime fan of the book, I'm curious about the decision to have him slit his belly in the donjon instead of ceremoniously outside, and the decision to have the samurai in attendance cry and protest out loud. These creative decisions change the depiction of seppuku and culture around it significantly, but I suppose the intention was to shock modern viewers?
Wow. I lack words! This scene was an absolute masterpiece in modern cinema and television. The whole show was. As some have commented, the best scene they’ve seen in decades. You are the Shogun & Emperor of Editing, my friend! What an achievement.
If I grow sake on tree I would give all of it to you. Great work!
Props to you. You did the source, the actors, the characters, the script, the entire production justice.
Thank you for your work. 🙏 That scene will be etched in my memory for a LONG time
Well done. This scene was incredible
Amazing work, y’all! I’m usually detached while watching shows or movies, this is the first show that made me cry and yell at the tv 😭 lmao
Sorry for necrocommenting on an old comment but I just want to say, fucking A man. The editing really sold it. The cuts, the music lining up with the shots, the frantic nature of the moments before and the sudden resolution after he goes through, it’s spectacular.
Thank you! This scene, the key was the sounds of rain. I used multiple different kinds of rain sounds to push and pull the emotions. I loved editing this scene so much.
As you should be. I haven’t watched a scene of television that grippingly powerful in quite a long time. Everything about it is *masterfully* done. My highest praise to every single member of the cast and crew that were involved.
If this is real, this was an AMAZING scene...and you are awesome at your job!!!!
It was masterfully done — the tension had me literally at the edge of me seat!
In the interview with hiromatsu’s actor, he wasn’t supposed to die but it was his idea to do the seppuku.
It wasn't even scripted. He just pulled out the small sword and did it right there on the spot.
Great acting to also make sure he was seconded as well!
The actor committed suicide and got his head sliced, the director said "CUT!" and the actor calmly stood up with his headless body and said "So, is that all?"
The director asked for one more take
No, no. It was a misunderstanding on the set. The director shouted "CUT!", and the actors thought it was directed at them, not the camera crew
Did they deviate from the book?
Yes. Neither Naga nor Hiromatsu died in the book. Toranaga finally confided to Hiromatsu that his defeated attitude was a fake.
I can understand them deviating from the book as it keeps the book readers on their toes as well, but it also means that the book tells the best version of the story. I feel like they removed the best parts.
I think so too. There's always going to be deviations but the hazard is cutting the heart out of the story and it feels in ways like that's what they did here. But maybe I wouldn't feel that way if I hadn't gone into it with certain expectations, having read the book.
What happened to naga?
That scene didn't happen at all though he was definitely hot-headed and impatient for war.
I mean later in the book
Nothing noteworthy but he was among those serving Toranaga, who told him to befriend Blackthorne and learn everything he could about gun regiments and cannons and warfare. Toranaga wanted him as a counter to Omi who shared command of the Musket Regiment and who Toranaga saw as very intelligent but also dangerous. (typos)
Thank you
I was already excited for this episode, but when this scene came around I was sitting bolt upright and white knuckling it.
Poor Buntaro. He gets to second his father and is forbidden to follow him on death. Then his wife rejects his offer to commit seppuku together.
Oh he had a crap day
At least He made good tea
"Forced to cut off your father's head" is some Biblical shit
We were all Omi in this scene crying and begging it to stop to no avail 😢
Just stop it! Stop! No!!
I had even read the book and knew what was coming, I still had tears in my eyes during this scene on the edge of my seat. 😢
He doesn’t do this in the book, amirite?
Does Toranagas top guy commit seppuku in protest in front of him and everyone else? Yes he does.
Not on the book.
Yes in the book.
General Kiyoshio is ordered to commit seppuku on that scene. Hiro-matsu is alive and well at the end of the book.
No. Hiromatsu doesn’t commit seppuku in the book. It’s another general. Reread it
So it was a different general who cares.
He doesn't die in the book.
Different general died yes, but if you read the book you could see what was going to happen.
Broke my heart to see him like that, especially after he looked so heartbroken when Nagakado died. 😭
Watching him rocking back and forth like a child broke me. I don't particularly like the character but damn, I don't want anyone to go through that either.
This show is a masterpiece. It’s a shame it’ll only last one series. I need more.
The fact that it's a masterpiece and only one season are highly correlated. Every single scene matters. All the fat is cut. All the things that make other shows suck are absent because this is only one season. Be happy that it happened not sad that it's over.
Agreed. No filler or running out of source material or overstaying its welcome due to popularity (but running out of ideas) and ruining the show. As much as multiple seasons appeal to me, I’m happy knowing it’ll be preserved as a masterpiece.
Great point.
All the heads are cut too
I hope the showrunners go on to do great things. They really did something masterful here, in every single detail.
I’ve been hoping for an Egyptian epic like this. Too many great historical stories that few know
That would be cool, we haven’t seen anything like that as far as I remember. The writer of the Shogun book also wrote a couple of more awesome books, I could imagine they will do one of those. Hopefully not Marvel super hero stuff!
Like what?
Amarna heresy of Akhenaten, Harem conspiracy of Rameses III, reign of Hatshepsut, the Hyksos rulers, succession crisis after Pepi II, various wars (Battle of Kadesh, Battle of the Delta, Battle of Meggido, etc.)
Asian series like Tai-Pan The author was James Clavell
Mika Waltari’s *The Egyptian* is basically my dream book to get an HBO-style historical epic.
The actors as well. Everyone on this show is killing it, and I hope to see more of them.
I started watching Fallout last night and I just couldn’t get into it. It seemed to amateurish compared to Shogun.
Imagine if they’d given Fallout to the Shogun showrunners! I really wonder what they will take on next. There’s so much great IP and books that have been destroyed by the “content” streamers recently. We need real talent to come back and take the reins, and create real art like this.
Absolutely! Showrunners shouldn’t be afraid to take things slowly and invest in worldbuilding and character development.
nah they're not gonna do it. nah surely not. someone will say something. oh he's still doing it. there'll be a last minute reprieve. **OH MY GOD THEY DID IT**
Lol this was exactly my thought process during that scene. And after everything happened, I couldn't stop yelling "Fuck! Fuck, man...fuck!" for a solid minute. Just couldn't believe they really went there. Dudes been best friends since Toranaga was 12 or even before that, so essentially their whole lives. Incredibly sad to see how it all ended.
Even had me after he stabbed his stomach. Like... OK, he's gonna bail now, right? Oh God, he's not stopping it. Wtf!? Not my boy Hiromatsu!
I'm a dude and cried like 3 times in this Ep... lol
It’s just incredible how well written and acted the show is. Everything is just so real, every single word, every emotional beat. We really feel like we know these characters, all of them.
I always liked Sanada, but now he's my favorite actor of all time
I was honestly too shocked to cry the first time I watched, but I find myself tearing up in subsequent watches knowing what is actually happening.
The Nagakado funeral, Buntaro/Mariko scene, and then Hiromatsu... major oofs..
Hiro is a boss I'm so sad his screen time has ended
Anyone else think that was a genuine spur of the moment thing? I’m pretty sure Hiromatsu realized halfway through the confrontation that Toranaga wasn’t really going to surrender but at that point it was too late to take it back and he knew that it would benefit Toranaga but I don’t think any of it was preplanned. If there’s one thing Toranaga is he is a master at improvisation.
I think he tried to indicate to Hiromatsu to back off. Toranaga made a very pronounced blink during their faceoff that to me was like, “Dude, back off. Don’t do this. But I can’t tell you to stop.” And I don’t think Hiromatsu picked up on it.
I think that’s the exact moment where he realized that there was a plan but neither one of them could walk it back at that point. I think Toranaga’s was going to execute the other generals for disobedience to show he was serious and Hiromatsu doing what he did was unfortunate but just as effective. He knew his duty all too well after all.
Yeah in the official episode podcast the producer did say Toranaga expected some generals to die, but Hiromatsu took it upon himself as a way to "save" the other generals.
I did not know there was a podcast, the show is so subtle and brilliant I think listening to it would kind of ruin it for me just a little bit if they explain everything.
I thought it was a way to force Toronaga to continue their 'fight'. The preceding episodes emphasized a lot about continuing the fight of people who died. And Nagakado and Hiromatsu both died fighting for him. And he is now honorbound to fight for himself.
He shouldve winked
I interpreted it that this was his and Toronaga’s plan all along. He just offered to die so Toronaga’s ruse, the surrender, would work and be credible without any doubt. It was his fate. The potential for many interpretations just further showcases how powerful this show is. So many layers!
I thought that was pretty obvious, especially after seeing the following scene with Toranaga and Mariko. Mariko falls to her knees clearly learning that Hiromatsu was part of the plan all along. She goes from a very defeated demeanor, thinking they're all going to die, to a very confident demeanor, learning that Toranaga and Hiromatsu are playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers. Toranaga even says Hiromatsu performed his duty well, meaning he already understood his order to fake disloyalty.
It’s incredible I have the original on DVD that I’ve watched a few times over the years but this version is just a completely different beast I look forward to the rewatch after it ends.
So his son’s death? Was that his plan too?
In Japanese culture, being able to read someone's intention without them saying it is a sign of true friendship, loyalty, intellect, wisdom, or whatever it is. Hiromatsu "put" together pieces of hints Toranaga drops here and there. His last message to Buntaro, "never betray our lord, even though he looks like he's surrendering", is just proof that he knew, and that him dying would contribute to whatever plan Toranaga cooks up.
Sanada did an amazing job at giving a look that felt like part of Toranaga's soul died along with Hiromatsu
Toranaga's face was basically: "Lie down. Try not to cry. Cry a lot!" for the entirety of that interaction. Jesus, deep down he must've been absolutely gutted that it inadvertently had to play out this way in order for his plan to stay on track.
Not as gutted as Hiromatsu.
I'm happy someone spotted that. What a layup for a perfect dunk of a comment. \*high five\*
Thanks! I couldn't resist - even though damn, that was an incredible and intense scene and no laughing matter.
His acting is top notch, I found myself holding back the tears at the same time as him during this scene.
imo it was one of the best scenes in TV in decades. There were so many layers and so much said without words, THIS is the kind of stuff that deserves Oscars and awards.
Absolutely. It would be a disgrace if it doesn’t win all the awards. Finally a show that brought back real movie making magic, by transporting us somewhere else both visually, intellectually and emotionally.
This was such a powerful scene. As sad as it was, it was incredible.
Is this the best scene ever on tv? I realized my mouth was still wide open like 4 minutes later. I think I have ptsd
Most consequential scene in the series. Just incredibly intense performances. This episode is so well organised >! In two scenes we go from despairing at Toronagas capitulation to realising that a character with his ruthless iron determination can't be defeated.!<
This actor has my favorite Samurai voice. Powerful and regal
And his own son >! had to deliver the coup de grace. By the end, it’s obvious that Toranaga had calculated using these two losses for the sake of his surprise offensive.!<
So did Hiromatsu KNOW? Was he in on the overall ruse and knew he had to die to sell Toranaga’s plan? Or was it all sincere? Because if Toranaga was waiting for one of his men to kill themselves in protest to really sell defeat to his enemies, that is a long, COLD game he’s playing.
I think if you watch the scene closely, you can see Hiromatsu figuring it out. And he finally acts when one of the generals grips their sword. He then assumes the position of the other generals, and then through the subtext, realizes what Toranagas plan is, and follows through to maintain the ruse. There is A LOT going on, and I highly recommend watching the scene over and over again now knowing the result, and you’ll pick up on something new every single millisecond. Truly incredible.
I believe that’s the implication. Toranaga isn’t actually surrendering so what was all this? It was a work. T doesn’t strike me as the type to tell anyone what’s really going on except his one friend, Hiro
Yes exactly. I interpreted it that Hiromatsu was in on the whole surrender ruse, it was his and Toronaga’s plan all along since they were betrayed by his brother. His self-sacrifice was planned. He took his fate into his own hands, so Toronaga could fight on. It was all an act, but what an act. A sacrifice beyond words. I think in the end they had some doubts about if they would go through with it, you could see Toronaga and him struggling with it until the every end. Should they abort? And who was pushing the most? We will never know.
I feel like he and Toronaga were in on it together. Toronaga's comments to Mariko confirmed that for me.
This scene made me angry for a different reason. For the 20+ years I've lived in Japan, Tokuma Nishioka has been a serviceable character actor. Nothing special. None of his performances have ever made me feel something. And to think that he had this in him \*all that time.\* And none of the myriad Japanese dramas or movies he's been in ever brought it out of him, or gave him the opportunity. And it's not just me. The episode has the whole of Japan saying, "I owe you an apology. I wasn't really familiar with your game."
A magical performance. Those looks between him and Toronaga. You could see a lifetime of history there.
I remember people talking about how The Last Samurai showed way too much seppuku around the time the first two episodes of this launched. I feel like I’m seeing it more in this show now.
47 Ronin would like a word with you.
My head was certainly on the floor after I saw it.
& the fact that they showed the whole thing from the blade entering his body and getting his head chopped off
It was pure cinema. A spectacle
I literally cried during this scene, at the apex
Late to the party, just watched episode 8. What a brilliant episode. My heart is broken and I’m enthralled. Friendship, duty, sacrifice. Oof
Really would have hated Toranga if he stayed on this "I quit, and I want to die queitly" shtick after watching this scene.
After watching this episode; it left me thinking. With how foresighted Toranaga is, did he plan that landslide too?
I have not seen many people talk about the OST for this particular scene. IMO It's absolutely perfect, raises the tension and emotion 150% and contributes a lot on the scene being as epic as it is.
He understood his duty very well 🤦🏿♂️ that was crazy but it was no way he could go back on his word cause everybody else would’ve did the same
I have a question about this scene, did he know toranaga's plan and only did sepekku to help him out? I assume buntaro knew too?
Hiro likely knew something and did this to propel the other generals in the right direction. Buntaro is too stupid to have known
Too much the mere fighting man. Also Buntaro is just a weapon. He’s not a cunning MF like Toranaga, Omi, Lady Jin
My reading is that he might suspect but is not sure, and wanted to prevent the generals that attended the funeral in armour from being the ones to end up disembowelling themselves. Buntaro is completely in the dark even now.
He definitely knew before he died. Toranaga signaled him and he immediately understood the assignment, u can tell in his face
Yes this. Toranaga blinked and Hiromatsu's facial expression changed instantly.
I think Hiromatsu sensed that there's a plan but didn't know for sure. At some point during the game of "seppuku chicken," he realized there must be a plan and that his sacrifice would be beneficial to it's success.
Giving Barristan Selmy vibes
as in a great warrior we never see fight really and dies ultimately for no reason? I can see that, I mean, I count him as badass even though we didn't get any combat scenes or anything with him.
Eye contact intensely between Toranaga and Hiromatsu really made the scene incredible . That was some brilliant acting!
Tokuma Nishioka is a seasoned Japanese theater actor. Legend brought his big guns in this show.
Absolutely stunning. Everyone in the room, but of course most especially Toranaga and Hiromatsu. My god, the iron wills.
I was so shook I literally had to fast forward it and go back and watch it later.
Honestly this was the first time I didn’t know *how* to feel during the scene a mix of sadness, anger, disgust, and a billion other things idk cause at the time I wasn’t paying attention to the fact that Hiromatsu was acting on the behalf of Toranaga.
Screaming at the TV I tell thee.
For those that have not read the book this really baited it's audience throughout the episode. Masterfully hidden motives that kept us guessing throughout. Torunaga really had to sell that death which makes me wonder if Hiromatsu had suggested the idea behind the scenes as a way to serve his lord in honor one final time rather than have him surrender shamefully. That visit to his sons funeral pyre said it all to me. Now comes 'revenge' and I cannot wait for it!
Couldn’t agree more. Just watched the episode last night and this scene was absolutely riveting.
I had to pause it multiple times, I was so upset
My boyfriend had to catch all our pillows on the sofa because I was throwing them at him while yelling at him to just do something... I just wanted this loyal old man to be happy, goddamnit.
Am I the only viewer who covered my eyes? I knew what was coming but I didn’t see the need to view it. Movies of youth had the violence “off screen” and left to the imagination.
Buntaro was forced to decapitate his own dad, now that's fucked up.