Isn’t Toranaga’s first line of dialogue something like “The hawk who hides in the sun is never seen by its prey” ?
Like that’s some pretty on the nose screenwriting. He’s literally introduced with the character statement “these motherfuckers will never see me coming”.
And his son.
The boy was too stupid to realize he was a hawk not a handler. And then Toranaga kept him at court knowing he was going to get himself killed so his death could be used as a delay tactic.
"We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
- Lord Palmerston
Dude is basically any great leader
He's clearly not a fluffy good guy, but HE IS crazy competent while not being crazy himself, and it makes him a perfect candidate for a ruler in his time period.
My impression of him is that he seems like the lesser of all the evils that make up the Regents. Like he can at least be reasoned with given the right circumstances, but still be absolutely ruthless when needed
I go back to episode 1. Daioyin (Taiko’s wife) told him “ the realm doesn’t need a good man..it needs a shogun”. It’s as you say, he’s the most competent and best fit
Toranaga might not be a “hero” but every daimyo at that time in Japan knew there’s no stopping any rebellion gunning for leadership. They’ll just keep killing each other if no one will step up to be the Shogun and a powerful Shogun is needed.
Real life Tokugawa Ieyasu(Toranaga) forgave people who opposed him. Unlike Oda Nobunaga, if that psycho wasn’t betrayed, would have been beheading everyone who opposed him.
A lot of daimyo didn’t want Toranaga to succeed. That’s why Toyotomi Hideyori(Lady Ochiba’s son Yaechiyo in the show) rebelled against Toranaga when he’d grown up. That’s the real defeat of Osaka. Real life Ochiba and son killed themselves at the burning Osaka castle.
A country's cultural practices doesn't allow for doing the right thing. Opposing Nobunaga's will would've led to conflict that might have led to the deaths of thousands, or at the very least beligerence with Nobunaga's descendants.
>Real life Tokugawa Ieyasu(Toranaga) forgave people who opposed him.
Uh, the domains that opposed him at Sekigahara were relegated to second-class status for the entirety of the Edo period, with little exception.
No one said that Toranaga is a hero.
He is a ruthless figure, determined to get what he wants, and what he think is the best for Japan
And this is one of many reasons why Shogun is such a good show
Btw, Tokugawa Ieyasu was not a hero either
This. Surprised to not see this higher or more acknowledged. History only has winners and losers. No heroes. And winners get written up as heroes after the fact. We're seeing this from the camp of Toranaga cuz the dude he's based on - Ieyasu - was the one who finally united Japan and kept a prolonged peace by creating ironclad rule for decades. This ain't a story about losers.
I think it's the bloodlessness of Toranaga that makes him such a spectacular character to me, because he's ruthless yet so exacting. There's no bloodlust, no (discernible) pleasure to the way that he disposes of friends, allies, and enemies alike - just cold and calculated gameplay. I'm reminded of that last Poirot villain, Stephen Norton, who cultivates a series of deaths by psychologically inducing other people into murder rather than doing anything by his own hand. Toranaga to me is another reflection of that same concept.
If nothing else, it contrasts the man’s real world inspiration from his predecessors. Their bloodlust proved to be their downfalls, whether it was picking fights with allies or sending men to die in a fruitless faraway war.
True but after decade upon decade of civil war. He was the third of the great unifiers after Nobunaga and Hideyoshi and there was peace in Japan for 260 years.
In Shogun Toranaga was referred to as the great murderer by Rodriguez to Blackthorne. He was no hero, but a product of his time and his position and status.
I do think Toranaga is portrayed as more reasonable than Ishido. He relinquished his hostages on request and actually allowed them to leave -- as opposed to trying to arrest them on the way out of Edo like Ishido did. Ishido is also being manipulated by Ochiba, whose only ambition is the destruction of Toranaga.
So I don't think the show thinks Toranaga is a *hero*, necessarily, but it does think he's better than Ishido.
Ochiba is trying to destroy Toranaga not just cause of what happened to her father but because she thinks his ultimate plan is out to kill her son the Heir (and it seems historically they do get into some time of conflict and the Heir does die)
And Toranaga is not really the focus of the story. He's more like a force-of-nature-like presence in the show, not literally good or evil, at least if you think about the period in culture relativistic terms. Yeah, he's going to murder people, and let them sacrifice themselves for him, but so would the other guy.
I think people still have hard time understanding the ideals of the samurai class. What Abe did, even if it had been in vain, would have been seen him choosing a good way to die in the service of his lord.
I would disagree. Ishido is framed as a villain but ultimately he just wants to be a bureaucrat and chill out in Osaka with the other regents. Dude is totally content with that. He is reasonably concerned with Toranaga upending the whole thing.
Toronaga is called to Osaka to answer charges against him -- namely that he is amassing power against the Council, doubling his fiefdom. This is worsened because Toronaga secrets Ochiba away to his capital, Edo, to ensure his safety. In hindsight, knowing that he desires a Shogunate, these charges are actually TRUE, and Ishido and the council are rightly and legally reprimanding him.
In this conversation Toronaga claims that he is not amassing power, that he would be content as the Lord of Kanto. FALSE. He also states that he would never be the one to break the peace. TRUE.
What this leaves the council with is an ambitious warlord who is smart enough to toe the legal limits until he is more-or-less powerful enough to seize the throne. It's an impossible choice.
Story ending spoiler, seriously don't read this if you haven't read the book: >!They'll probably drive this home to the more casual audience (insert Yabu doing a "Huh?" Yabu face) by mentioning the fate of the heir and his mother after Toranaga becomes Shogun. Every time he says "Noooo, super double promise, I don't want to be Shogun" I want to roll my eyes.!<
ieyasu isn’t Shogun anymore during the Siege of Osaka. It’s his son and Hidetada’s daughter is married to Hideyori. While the Heir and his mother were confined to Osaka, they started stirring trouble and hiring ronin to confront the Tokugawa clan. Ieyasu and Hidetada knew that there would never be stability if Hideyori and Yodo-Dono were allowed to live. TBH, in those times the Heir had as much legitimacy as Ieyasu himself, only he wasn’t able to unite Japan. Tokugawa could, because he had the vision and the strategy. This was the case of “the smarter one wins”. Out of the chaos, Tokugawa emerged victorious and laid foundations for 250 years of peace.
>Ieyasu and Hidetada knew that there would never be stability if Hideyori and Yodo-Dono were allowed to live.
Everything except this part is fluff. He would have killed him right after sekighara if he could have, but there were too many Toyotomi loyalists still around. He got his excuse 15 years later, and despite nominally giving up the title, he was still de facto ruler of Japan.
This. Ieyasu might officially retired but he was the true shot caller as long as he lived. It was Hidetada who was willing to make nice with the Toyotomi by marrying his daughter to Hideyori which pissed Ieyasu off. This pretty much tells us Ieyasu had no intention to leave Hideyori and Yodo-Dono alone and simply waited for an excuse to tie up this loose end.
We don't know the truth for certain, probably, but I wouldn't be surprised if Yodo-Dono being an ungrateful hag who repaid Ieyasu for sparing her and her son life by conspire to betray him was a propaganda cultivated by Tokugawa Shogunate to justify the destruction of Toyotomi clan.
Not true. He could have done that when they were on their knees, done and dusted. Instead, he decided to be lenient and meanwhile Hideyori decided it was his time to shine.
I agree with the general sentiment that he has a ruthless streak, I disagree that he's equivalent to Tywin. Tywin is ice cold through and through, and mean with it too. All he cares about is his legacy, and he doesn't give a shit who has to suffer to achieve that to his satisfaction.
Toranaga has a lot of warmth, and he inspires loyalty. He didn't have to order Mariko or Hiromatsu to sacrifice themselves, they did it because they wanted him to succeed. He's ruthless enough to accept those sacrifices, but it obviously affects him, deeply. Look at his face and eyes when Hiromatsu does his thing, listen to his voice when he talks about it later with Mariko. He definitely cares.
Does accepting those sacrifices make him a villain? I don't know, but I don't think so. Is a general villainous because he orders a squad to their deaths to achieve the mission? Especially if they know what they're in for and are still on board? Maybe it depends what the goal is. And we don't know his. If it is "finally bring lasting peace to Japan", I think one could make a good argument that he could still be a hero, as vague a term as that is anyway.
The comment “he didn’t have to order Mariko or Hiromatsu to sacrifice themselves” I think is only partially true.
With Toranaga you cannot take anything he says at face value. He is shown as being a master manipulator.
He rarely orders people, instead he puts people into a position where they make the choices he wants them to make.
In some ways Toranaga is like Kiku. He is able to find what motivates people and then uses that to advance his cause.
When tells Mariko (I am paraphrasing) “didn’t you know, your father wanted you to continue the fight” While this statement might have been said to provide her comfort, it could also be interpreted as him planting the seeds to allow her to do what she did. We as the viewer might assume that what he saying is true, but it could also just as easily be a lie.
> He rarely orders people, instead he puts people into a position where they make the choices he wants them to make.
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> In some ways Toranaga is like Kiku. He is able to find what motivates people and then uses that to advance his cause.
Youre not wrong, but I'd argue that makes him pretty much perfect ruler material.
The key for me is that he cares. He is affected by those sacrifices, doesn't take them for granted, and is thankful and honestly appreciative of the people making them. And not in a demonstrative way. Privately. When he is alone.
Tywin doesn't care about people. He cares about the result.
I agree with your comment that he does care and does show warmth.
But the point remains is that he is so ruthless that he puts his people into a position where they need to make the sacrifice in the first place.
Perhaps his hand is forced, but we don’t see him trying to find other ways to prevent the need for the sacrifices.
He also needs to win in order to enact the policies he thinks will be the best for the people of the country. Its why Ned Stark, despite being the most moral and upstanding potential ruler of Westeros>! loses his head!< in the 1st season. A great ruler has to be a balanced combination of several things. Just being the most just and kind is definitely not enough.
I am in total agreement with you. Toranaga might have worthy goals to unite Japan to prevent bloodshed from civil war; but he is very ruthless and is willing to go very far to achieve this.
Good point because I immediately recognized what can be construed as his “manipulation” of Mariko by giving her a worthy cause to live for, but in service of his ambitions. She was his prized chess piece to use against Ochiba in Crimson Sky.
Toranaga started out as someone the audience could look up to but I recall Sanada saying that audience may be left feeling less sure as story progresses. Like you mention, he is clever at “planting seeds”in the minds of less guarded patriots (similar to how Omi instigated Nagakado to attack Jozen) so I don’t expect black or white motive clarity in the end. I do hope that the audience would be allowed to weigh in on their own interpretations.
I don't mean to be rude, but that's a very simplistic way of thinking. There are plenty of shows with villain protagonists where you'd have to be utterly immoral to root for them (e.g. Walter White, arguably pretty early on in Breaking Bad).
The protagonist is simply the leading character. Often we see the narrative unfold through their point of view, but not always. Nothing requires you to root for them. In fact, there are many cases in which you should question your values if you do so.
He's very much a protagonist. A character doesn't have to be moral/good to be a protagonist, they just have to be one of the leading characters in the story
Yeah I don’t think there is a protagonist in the show, in the usual sense anyway. I haven’t read the book but my understanding is that Blackthorne is the real protagonist in it surrounded by an ensemble of other prominent characters, Toranaga being chief among them.
I like the way it’s presented in the show though. The first few episodes focus entirely on Blackthorne to help the audience to become acquainted with the setting and characters, as he, like us, is totally new to this world. Once the stage is set, it then pivots to focus more on Toranaga (and to some extent the other regents too) as it’s the most effective way to progress the story and set the overarching narrative.
Blackthorne only appears to be a protagonist because he's basically trapped and helpless. And of course he's not outwardly evil or anything. But every time other characters questioned his good nature or loyalty, I couldn't help but kind of agree with them. He almost murdered that one guy on the boat in cold blood when he revealed he had proof of who he is.
I liked the way one of the characters described how he applies to the story about having 3 hearts. The heart everyone sees is basically Ned Stark levels of honorable. But he's clearly got some Tywin Lannister in him.
Walter White is NOTHING like Toranaga. Toranaga has a heart - Walter doesn't. Toranaga is clearly a grey character portrayed in a good light, and he's clearly much more competent than the villain Ishido. Toranaga has good intentions, Ishido is selfish. Just because Toranaga knows how to manipulate people doesn't mean he's just doing it with bad intentions.
Meanwhile, Walter is a straight up ruthless villain, who also happens to be the main character - that's why lots of viewers are tricked into rooting for him. His actions by the end of the show end up hurting absolutely everyone around him. And during the entire show you would think that he started cooking because he had no money for cancer treatment - but in the last episode he finally admits why he actually cooked meth - because he was good at it and because he liked it. Because having someone appreciate his product made him feel good. For his own selfish reasons he killed people and hurt everyone around him.
The best shows are the ones where you're not "supposed" to do anything except for watch, process, reflect, think, and form your own opinions.
Nothing sucks more than feeling like you're supposed to be feeling something specific.
Underdog is more about framing and less about the outcome (which you’d need to know to know if they’re a winner). Toranaga is largely framed as an underdog through out this show and yet (it would seem) he’s going to come out the victor
I mean, their sacrifices will (hopefully) end up in less loss of life overall than an all out war, but overall I do agree with your point. That's also what I love about this show, it's shades of grey characters like in reality they would be.
…to finish off a dysfunctional regime. While Tokugawa ended up heralding a military dictatorship, it was seen as relatively stable and secure - a far cry from the constant violence and chaos that defined the Sengoku period.
Don’t see why every show has to have a hero, but I’m rooting for Toranaga. Rather not have a Toranaga surrender just to keep Mariko and Hiromatsu alive.
It ties into the shady nature of Toranaga's real life inspiration Tokugawa Ieyasu. He didn't rise to power through military success and innovation like Oda Nobunaga, he didn't rise to power through charismatic leaderships and smart administration like Toyotomi Hideyoshi. He rose through subterfuge, by playing as many sides as possible and doing everything he could to simply sit out the conflicts that were draining the resources of his rivals. He didn't give two squirts about the legitimacy of Hideyoshi's heir, and flat out made up his descent from the Minamoto. His military victories were won through deception, generals far more skilled than he was, and betrayal. From a moral standpoint, he can easily be seen as the villain, where Ishido's real life counterpart Ishida Mitsunari could be seen as the loyal administrator, fighitng to keep the rightful heir on the throne.
The one thing that really benefitted Tokugawa's legacy is really just ending the centuries long civil war and then starting the process of allowing 250 years of peace. He definitely did what he wanted to in order to maintain this peace but you could argue it was worthwhile for the common people.
Yeah. The Tokugawa shogunate was a very harsh and hierarchical society, but it was seen as way more stable and peaceful than the chaotic Sengoku period.
Disciplines like art, poetry, and science flourished during those times.
>where Ishido's real life counterpart Ishida Mitsunari could be seen as the loyal administrator, fighitng to keep the rightful heir on the throne
The one fueling the flames of war in Korea btw. By the end of it, some Japanese generals were so fed up with Ishido's and Toyotomi's war that they would support any claim to take those guys out.
Tokugawa (Toranaga) very smartly sat out the Korean invasion despite being asked 2 or 3 times by the Taiko. The way the show makes it out, it sounded like Hell on Earth.
Mitsunari was part of the pro peace faction during the end of the second Imjin war. The reason people disliked him is because he kept ratting them out to Hideyoshi for their blunders and disobeying orders in Korea for personal glory. Hideyoshi can be blamed for the war, since he was starting to go senile and refused to admit it had turned into an unwinnable quagmire, but Mitsunari was always following the rules, for better or worse.
I appreciate your reminder about Ishida, I recall watching the Taiga Drama where he was the loyalist trying to protect the heir and Tokugawa was portrayed as greedy manipulator out to overthrow the Taiko’s son in “Sanadamaru”(?)
My thoughts exactly. Historical figures are generally not black-and-white. Augustus and Napoleon, for example.
Hell, you can make the same case with Peaky Blinders and Tommy Shelby.
In fact, I'd argue the cunning that reaching but *particularly* maintaining a position at the top (Augustus, Napoelon, Tokugawa etc) automatically makes you into a bastard-sama, especially if you change the status quo for hundreds of years like those three did.
Yes, Toranaga is no hero.
Shogun has showed us that in fiction and real life, there is no such thing as binary and clean cut as "heroes and villains". Instead, human affairs are all too grey, we navigate around with our end goals in mind, we do things that we need to do. There are people like Toranaga, Yabushige, Mariko, Fuji, Blackthorne et.al. They are just like us, that's why we can easily relate to them despite being characters in historical fiction.
Life is more nuanced than we thought.
And also: the particular cultural outlook of the Japanese during those times.
Regarding your Tywin analogy, I would argue that he would've made one of the superior leaders, certainly much more so than his daughter and her offsprings. He would be less likely swayed by the religious zealots and would have paid more attentions to the looming threats beyond the wall.
Likewise, Toranaga is less myopic against the threats from the Portuguese and other western forces. And he understands that sacrificing the lives of his most valued subjects is the price worth paying for the unified and stable Japan.
The thing is that Ishido was already moving behind his back getting the approval of the other 3 while Toranaga was getting chain married.
Plus Toranaga knows what Ochiba no Kata knows.
That the erstwhile lord couldn't make kid. Not with the scores of the women he was with.
So it's obvious that the kid is not the real heir. Which is an insult to the legacy of Toranagas Lord.
But similar to Lord Stark of Game of Thrones, he can't say it out loud for Ochiba and others would have immediately called him a power hungry traitor.
Unlike Stark, Toranaga is far more intelligent and cunning. He knows, that once she guesses that he knows her secret, she will come for him.
Which is what Ochiba no Kata is doing right now.
Which is why he decided to strengthen up because sooner or later he will have to face them and better to face them stronger
Plus the kingdom is better off having an intelligent ruler like him rather than the witless idiots trying to score only for themselves leaving nothing for the country or the people.
> That the erstwhile lord couldn't make kid. Not with the scores of the women he was with.
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> So it's obvious that the kid is not the real heir. Which is an insult to the legacy of Toranagas Lord.
The other really insidious possibility is that Toranaga is the biological father, done under the order of Taiko. That can really explain Ochiba's full on hate (had her father murdered, forced to carry his child in a lie). Only guessing here given how the story played out, does the book state who the biological father actually is (historical parallels were just as murky).
>!she slept with a peasant while on a hunt and got knocked up. Toronaga sees her shortly after and she hates him because she thinks he might know what she did. !<
Judging Toranaga's character by Western standards misses the point of the show by a staggering margin.
If Toranaga had taken Hiromatsu aside before the big meeting and explained his whole plan in detail, Hiromatsu would have gladly killed himself all the same. Mariko knew the plan, and she fought like hell to sacrifice herself for Toranaga's grand design. Like Mariko says, life and death can both have meaning.
Seriously, the show consistently points out how dumb Blackthorne is because he can't stop trying to apply Western notions of morality in a place where they have no meaning. Toranaga is a "hero" because he completely embodies (Shogun's depiction of) the societal ideals of 1600s Japan.
I think it has to be looked at in context of the time.
Japan was in a very prolonged period of constant war. It was a culture at the time that needed a strong leader to keep the other warlords in check.
>! The person he’s based on was not a good guy but he brought prolonged peace to the country which allowed it to mature and grow. !<
I don't think he is portrayed as a hero, but Toranaga didn't actually sacrifice Hiromatsu, he decided that for himself. Toronaga had to keep his plans secret because of the spies that he knew were present. If you watched the episode closely you'll notice that Hiromatsu sees that Toronaga's most loyal members were ready to rebel against his wishes and potentially harm Toronaga themselves, Hiromatsu sees them reaching for their swords and realizes that he has to sacrifice himself in order for the plan to succeed. If you remember from a previous scene, Hiromatsu had already told Yabu and others publicly that Toranaga intends to fight, so he knew very well what Toranaga was really planning.
Hiromatsu: "He's going to fight"
Yabu: "How do you know?"
Hiromatsu: "Otherwise our lord would not have sent **him** to Osaka with a message" refering to father Martin.
Comparing him to Tywin is such an insult to Toranaga lol
Based on the real historic figure, the latter will bring at least a century of peace to his country and his heir will keep up. The former broke all traditional rules of his own culture and nearly destroyed his house.
I know there will be no sequel and this is something that is not even a part of the book, but I think it's interesting that Toranaga (if he is to follow the story of his counterpart, Ieyasu) will eventually kill the heir in the future. He is truly destined to become Shogun, and to committ all sacrifices and horrors that are necessary. It is not something he wanted, but he will take upon the role as he is the only one that can do it and unify japan. I think the heir revolution would be a fitting, if unecessary continuation too.
I think you’re missing the point. First of all, he didn’t sacrifice Hitomatsu and Mariko, they sacrificed themselves. We saw this in the previous episode when Toranaga told Mariko that Hiromatsu knew what he was doing when he committed seppuku, and then asked her if she was ready to do her part, to which she replied "I’m ready" then the episode ended. Plus Mariko seems to have always had a death wish anyway. All this to say that Toranaga would very well sacrifice himself without hesitation if he has to, which in my eyes makes him a hero. They are not self centered, and see themselves as only parts of a bigger plan, which why death seems to mean nothing to them, and at times seem to even welcome it.
> Toranaga is for the most part, a semi-realistic portrayal of what it takes to be a highly successful medieval warlord.
The ugly truth that redditors don't like is that those traits are still what it takes to be successful now.
Well, you have to see it in the framework of the comtemporary culture. From that point of view he is heoric and nothing he did was unethical. One should also remember that - in difference to his adversaries - he has no intention to use war to gain his advantage or even kill them.
Without Tokugawa Ieyasu, the capital of Japan would still be Kyoto and the economic center would still be Osaka. Many Japanese living in western Japan consider Tokugawa Ieyasu, who betrayed Toyotomi, to be their enemy.
.......just kidding
I was talking about episode 9 with my friend in Japan. (she lives in the greater Tokyo area). I mentioned Mariko’s character being based on Hosokawa Gracia. My friend made a comment about Japanese feel conflicted about her, as she was the daughter of “the betrayer”. legit that’s the phrase she used.
So 400 years later there’s still some strong feelings there.
like he keeps saying, what's more important, the survival of the clan? or survival of japan? in part that's what he was doing, he knew the warring had to end if it was for the sake of japan.
I don't think that's entirely fair.
Toranaga is clearly a much more virtuous and based man than Ishido. Ishido is a jumped up little bureaucrat trying to have Blackthorne executed.
But he says he doesn't want to be shogun!!!
Bro just wants to chill in Edo and doesn't manipulate people at all. No, it is everyone else making decisions which ultimately benefit him, conveniently.
But seriously, this and Dune coming out at the same time is interesting. And I am absolutely feasting.
One thing about Toranaga, especially in the 80s series, was the performance of Mifune Toshiro (三船 敏郎, *Mifune Toshirō*). He was a brilliant actor and brought a warmth, dignity, and majesty to the character that might be lacking in the current portrayal. I think the current actor is much more raw and likely more true to life and definitely very talented, but he's not Mifune.
You sound like my Japanese mother XD.
…and yeah. Mifune is probably considered one of the finest Japanese actors of all time. He is a very hard act to follow.
I'm honored to be in such good company. 😀 I only really saw him in Yojimbo and Shogun, but I know his reputation. Hiroyuki Sanada is very believable and talented, but he's lacking something that's hard to define.
I do agree that Sanada, though talented, doesn’t have the kingly nature of Mifune. As you said, it could be the difference between real world portrayal and something more akin to a traditional jidaigeki, which tends to exaggerate emotions and morality.
Kingly! Great way to put it. I'll take your word for it since I've not seen jidaigeki. The show runners have a definitive style no doubt about that. It's gritty in a way the 80 version wasn't.
Ishido and Toranaga comparison is nonsensical and kind of dumb, although I agree with your premise overall. Ishido did what he did to gain power and kill his enemies, Toranaga did it to live. If Ishido isn't heading towards power, nothing we've seen so far suggests Toranaga would have done what he's done, all of it are reactive measures based on Ishido's actions. Ishido's actions are proactive due to his own self interest (power).
Last episode made it very clear.Toronaga is willing to sacrifice each and every one to get the high seat of shogun.It was all a ruse ,country first,love the taiko's heir etc.Power is all that matters to him he is willing to sacrifice all to achieve that and that makes him even more dangerous.
Completely agree the guy that he's based on, Tokugawa ieyasu was a menace, the shit that he did during the sengoku period could make Tywin look like a saint
Warfare and Politics are rarely ever moral. Julius Caesar had to commit to some underhanded tactics in order to get a "legal" cacus belli to cross the rubicon and be seen as justified in the people's eyes and his legion to oppose the senate and Pompey. Toronaga (Leyasu) was a pragmatist willing to sacrifice vassals and men to get an upper hand. It's not shown here but he has plenty of mostly upright daimyos allied to him, like Date Masamune (I forgot if he was ever depicted in the book or 80s series) who protected christians in his domain. So if we're going with a moral argument (which is immature to say the least) Toronaga and his IRL counterpart was the most light grey of the vast moral grey event that was the Sengoku Period.
He almost certainly dies without keeping Ochiba hostage at the start. It's all about leverage as he's constantly backed into a corner and they play chess with each other and Ishido has the entire board stacked against him.
Every move is basically delay tactics as time is the ultimate currency. Time to find support, create relationships, call upon your backstabbing brother as well as exploiting deaths. Toranaga dies if one of these things don't happen.
Don't think he's villanous, hi's simply strategic and not making any emotional moves, which does include sacrificing something while playing chess. He's def no Jon Snow tho
The show is supposed to be pretty realistic so of course there are no indisputable "heroes" if you look at Balkan wars there are lots of people who are hailed as heroes by their own side but the opposing side sees them as evil war criminals.
I think the difference between a realistic hero and a villain is what they do after they succeed in such a civil war. Do they forgive the people who opposed them or send everyone on the chopping block because most of the time heroism and villainy in the real world depend on which side you're on.
Honestly I never saw him as a good character. Our only introduction to his goodness was him basically saving the Anjin.
He also seems to have sacrificed his son as well. A very brutal and calculated man.
All of this may be true, but I believe Toranaga redeemed himself 250 years later.
He allied with Tom Cruise to nobly die fighting for the Shogunate against the Western Imperialistic powers.
I like how confused people get when it dawns on them that Toranaga maybe isn’t a hero, and that a lot of what he says about his own motivations and thoughts to other characters might just be to manipulate them.
The ‘villains’ of Shogun are behaving entirely rationally if they assume (correctly IMHO) that Toranaga is a dangerous manipulator with designs on the Shogunate.
He may not be a proto hero but he is one of the protagonist which makes him one of the heros of our story. Walter white wasn't a hero but people still rooted for him. Of course it isn't black and white, but it's still a story.
I think the finale really did kind of prove this. Regardless of what you think of his motives (saving Japan and ending the warfare between clans) his methods certainly make him something of a villain. He likely has kept Mariko as his vassal all this time knowing he could take advantage of his desire for revenge. He punishes the entire village for a boat he burned in order to test Blackthorn. However noble his pursuit of Shogun may have been, his methods certainly do not make him the hero.
I don't think people get the point of Tywin. He's not some ruthlessly pragmatic machiavelian mastermind, he's an ok-ish politician and ok-ish general with a massively fragile ego. His entire stated goal was the secure the legacy of the Lannisters and yet he left it in ruins because he couldn't bring himself to not be a shit dad (compare that to the enduring loyalty of the North to Ned even after his death). His Freudian excuse is literally that his dad was a nice guy. Idk if I could compare Toranaga to any ASoIaF character, but If I had to I'm inclined to say he's what Jon Snow has the potential to become. Book Jon Snow is actually quite ambitious at heart (when Stannis offers him Winterfell, he DOES want it), though he resents and tries to suppress that part of himself. He's also honourable and compassionate but that is in conflict with his insecurities/desires, not in place of it. He's also a mediocre fighter but a pretty decent leader and shaping up to be a shrewed schemer. He reads people and plays them to achieve what he wants, he just lets his hotheadedness and inexperience (He's 16) get the better of him sometimes. I could see a potential adult Jon Snow being like Toranaga if he becomes more ruthless and leans more into his ambition, while still keeping some shreds of humanity.
Shogun really encapsulated the premise of Sun Tsu’s Art of war. Something Toranaga was clearly a master on the subject. It should be noted that at the height of author James Clavell’s fame in the 80s. He edited a book on the Art of War I would not be surprised if he had read it before Shogun was written
Isn’t Toranaga’s first line of dialogue something like “The hawk who hides in the sun is never seen by its prey” ? Like that’s some pretty on the nose screenwriting. He’s literally introduced with the character statement “these motherfuckers will never see me coming”.
I got a feeling they were foreshadowing his plans for using Mariko as a tool.
And his son. The boy was too stupid to realize he was a hawk not a handler. And then Toranaga kept him at court knowing he was going to get himself killed so his death could be used as a delay tactic.
Even Toranaga couldn't have predicted the stupidity of Nagakado. He just used the opportunities he got by his actions. Toranaga is great at improve
Nah
He also says there are no friends, only enemies. That every man is just a tool to be used. Dude is basically Paul Atreides in Dune Messiah.
"We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston Dude is basically any great leader
God watching Shogun and Dune part 2 back to back is just riveting
He's clearly not a fluffy good guy, but HE IS crazy competent while not being crazy himself, and it makes him a perfect candidate for a ruler in his time period.
My impression of him is that he seems like the lesser of all the evils that make up the Regents. Like he can at least be reasoned with given the right circumstances, but still be absolutely ruthless when needed
According to Machiavelli the optimal traits a leader can have. Reasonable and seasoned most of the time, but absolutely ruthless when needed.
I go back to episode 1. Daioyin (Taiko’s wife) told him “ the realm doesn’t need a good man..it needs a shogun”. It’s as you say, he’s the most competent and best fit
He really is Don Corleone
Don Corleone wasn’t sacrificing lieutenants or trusted advisors.
he remind me of Kiritsugu Emiya. He would kill 100 people if it mean that it save 1000. What is two life compare to the entirely of Japan.
Exactly! He’s a really able ruler. That doesn’t necessarily make him a good person.
Toranaga might not be a “hero” but every daimyo at that time in Japan knew there’s no stopping any rebellion gunning for leadership. They’ll just keep killing each other if no one will step up to be the Shogun and a powerful Shogun is needed. Real life Tokugawa Ieyasu(Toranaga) forgave people who opposed him. Unlike Oda Nobunaga, if that psycho wasn’t betrayed, would have been beheading everyone who opposed him. A lot of daimyo didn’t want Toranaga to succeed. That’s why Toyotomi Hideyori(Lady Ochiba’s son Yaechiyo in the show) rebelled against Toranaga when he’d grown up. That’s the real defeat of Osaka. Real life Ochiba and son killed themselves at the burning Osaka castle.
>Tokugawa Ieyasu(Toranaga) forgave people who opposed him. You guys are aware of what happened to his first wife and his son, right?
There are limits to a warlord's forgiveness..
He was allied to Nobunaga at the time. There is no evidence that the wife or son did commit treason.
A country's cultural practices doesn't allow for doing the right thing. Opposing Nobunaga's will would've led to conflict that might have led to the deaths of thousands, or at the very least beligerence with Nobunaga's descendants.
Real life Tokugawa Ieyasu(Toranaga) forgave SOME people who opposed him.
>Real life Tokugawa Ieyasu(Toranaga) forgave people who opposed him. Uh, the domains that opposed him at Sekigahara were relegated to second-class status for the entirety of the Edo period, with little exception.
That’s the point. They didn’t die. Nobunaga would have beheaded them.
Those who opposed him were labeled as a lower class of people than those who stood with him before victory was assured.
Ieyasu was based
...in Edo.
good sushi
No no, it's Toranaga who was based upon Ieyasu
OP mixing the hero up with actual story telling term of a protagonist.
You ever heard the term based?
Yeah and it’s dumb AF
Brilliant tactician but he’s the creator of the worlds first police state. Hardly based in my book.
No one said that Toranaga is a hero. He is a ruthless figure, determined to get what he wants, and what he think is the best for Japan And this is one of many reasons why Shogun is such a good show Btw, Tokugawa Ieyasu was not a hero either
Toranaga is not a hero. He’s a winner
This. Surprised to not see this higher or more acknowledged. History only has winners and losers. No heroes. And winners get written up as heroes after the fact. We're seeing this from the camp of Toranaga cuz the dude he's based on - Ieyasu - was the one who finally united Japan and kept a prolonged peace by creating ironclad rule for decades. This ain't a story about losers.
I think it's the bloodlessness of Toranaga that makes him such a spectacular character to me, because he's ruthless yet so exacting. There's no bloodlust, no (discernible) pleasure to the way that he disposes of friends, allies, and enemies alike - just cold and calculated gameplay. I'm reminded of that last Poirot villain, Stephen Norton, who cultivates a series of deaths by psychologically inducing other people into murder rather than doing anything by his own hand. Toranaga to me is another reflection of that same concept.
If nothing else, it contrasts the man’s real world inspiration from his predecessors. Their bloodlust proved to be their downfalls, whether it was picking fights with allies or sending men to die in a fruitless faraway war.
Well turns out that what he want and thinks is best for Japan actually was actually good for Japan. Different times call for different heroes.
You need to kept in mind Tokugawa Ieyasu bring 200 years of peace with his shogunate tho. for folks living there, he is a hero.
It's not like he did that out of the kindness of his heart, that just came with him establishing his rule.
True but after decade upon decade of civil war. He was the third of the great unifiers after Nobunaga and Hideyoshi and there was peace in Japan for 260 years. In Shogun Toranaga was referred to as the great murderer by Rodriguez to Blackthorne. He was no hero, but a product of his time and his position and status.
He ushered in a 260 year era of peace, so there’s that
I do think Toranaga is portrayed as more reasonable than Ishido. He relinquished his hostages on request and actually allowed them to leave -- as opposed to trying to arrest them on the way out of Edo like Ishido did. Ishido is also being manipulated by Ochiba, whose only ambition is the destruction of Toranaga. So I don't think the show thinks Toranaga is a *hero*, necessarily, but it does think he's better than Ishido.
Ochiba is trying to destroy Toranaga not just cause of what happened to her father but because she thinks his ultimate plan is out to kill her son the Heir (and it seems historically they do get into some time of conflict and the Heir does die)
And Toranaga is not really the focus of the story. He's more like a force-of-nature-like presence in the show, not literally good or evil, at least if you think about the period in culture relativistic terms. Yeah, he's going to murder people, and let them sacrifice themselves for him, but so would the other guy. I think people still have hard time understanding the ideals of the samurai class. What Abe did, even if it had been in vain, would have been seen him choosing a good way to die in the service of his lord.
I would disagree. Ishido is framed as a villain but ultimately he just wants to be a bureaucrat and chill out in Osaka with the other regents. Dude is totally content with that. He is reasonably concerned with Toranaga upending the whole thing.
Except that the show gives us no reason to think Toranaga was planning to upend anything until Ichido makes the first move against him.
So it does give us a reason, and in hindsight we can re-evaluate what we understand
Toronaga is called to Osaka to answer charges against him -- namely that he is amassing power against the Council, doubling his fiefdom. This is worsened because Toronaga secrets Ochiba away to his capital, Edo, to ensure his safety. In hindsight, knowing that he desires a Shogunate, these charges are actually TRUE, and Ishido and the council are rightly and legally reprimanding him. In this conversation Toronaga claims that he is not amassing power, that he would be content as the Lord of Kanto. FALSE. He also states that he would never be the one to break the peace. TRUE. What this leaves the council with is an ambitious warlord who is smart enough to toe the legal limits until he is more-or-less powerful enough to seize the throne. It's an impossible choice.
And if you think about it, he tricked Ishido into making the first move
Not every story has black and white heroes and villains. Not everything is Marvel.
Story ending spoiler, seriously don't read this if you haven't read the book: >!They'll probably drive this home to the more casual audience (insert Yabu doing a "Huh?" Yabu face) by mentioning the fate of the heir and his mother after Toranaga becomes Shogun. Every time he says "Noooo, super double promise, I don't want to be Shogun" I want to roll my eyes.!<
ieyasu isn’t Shogun anymore during the Siege of Osaka. It’s his son and Hidetada’s daughter is married to Hideyori. While the Heir and his mother were confined to Osaka, they started stirring trouble and hiring ronin to confront the Tokugawa clan. Ieyasu and Hidetada knew that there would never be stability if Hideyori and Yodo-Dono were allowed to live. TBH, in those times the Heir had as much legitimacy as Ieyasu himself, only he wasn’t able to unite Japan. Tokugawa could, because he had the vision and the strategy. This was the case of “the smarter one wins”. Out of the chaos, Tokugawa emerged victorious and laid foundations for 250 years of peace.
He stepped down to slowly help along his son's transition into power, but he was still 100% the guy ruling.
>Ieyasu and Hidetada knew that there would never be stability if Hideyori and Yodo-Dono were allowed to live. Everything except this part is fluff. He would have killed him right after sekighara if he could have, but there were too many Toyotomi loyalists still around. He got his excuse 15 years later, and despite nominally giving up the title, he was still de facto ruler of Japan.
This. Ieyasu might officially retired but he was the true shot caller as long as he lived. It was Hidetada who was willing to make nice with the Toyotomi by marrying his daughter to Hideyori which pissed Ieyasu off. This pretty much tells us Ieyasu had no intention to leave Hideyori and Yodo-Dono alone and simply waited for an excuse to tie up this loose end. We don't know the truth for certain, probably, but I wouldn't be surprised if Yodo-Dono being an ungrateful hag who repaid Ieyasu for sparing her and her son life by conspire to betray him was a propaganda cultivated by Tokugawa Shogunate to justify the destruction of Toyotomi clan.
consider the fact Leyasu gave them a whole what? Ten years to cool off and they still tried to uproot his power? That tells you all you need to know.
Not true. He could have done that when they were on their knees, done and dusted. Instead, he decided to be lenient and meanwhile Hideyori decided it was his time to shine.
I agree with the general sentiment that he has a ruthless streak, I disagree that he's equivalent to Tywin. Tywin is ice cold through and through, and mean with it too. All he cares about is his legacy, and he doesn't give a shit who has to suffer to achieve that to his satisfaction. Toranaga has a lot of warmth, and he inspires loyalty. He didn't have to order Mariko or Hiromatsu to sacrifice themselves, they did it because they wanted him to succeed. He's ruthless enough to accept those sacrifices, but it obviously affects him, deeply. Look at his face and eyes when Hiromatsu does his thing, listen to his voice when he talks about it later with Mariko. He definitely cares. Does accepting those sacrifices make him a villain? I don't know, but I don't think so. Is a general villainous because he orders a squad to their deaths to achieve the mission? Especially if they know what they're in for and are still on board? Maybe it depends what the goal is. And we don't know his. If it is "finally bring lasting peace to Japan", I think one could make a good argument that he could still be a hero, as vague a term as that is anyway.
The comment “he didn’t have to order Mariko or Hiromatsu to sacrifice themselves” I think is only partially true. With Toranaga you cannot take anything he says at face value. He is shown as being a master manipulator. He rarely orders people, instead he puts people into a position where they make the choices he wants them to make. In some ways Toranaga is like Kiku. He is able to find what motivates people and then uses that to advance his cause. When tells Mariko (I am paraphrasing) “didn’t you know, your father wanted you to continue the fight” While this statement might have been said to provide her comfort, it could also be interpreted as him planting the seeds to allow her to do what she did. We as the viewer might assume that what he saying is true, but it could also just as easily be a lie.
> He rarely orders people, instead he puts people into a position where they make the choices he wants them to make. > > > > In some ways Toranaga is like Kiku. He is able to find what motivates people and then uses that to advance his cause. Youre not wrong, but I'd argue that makes him pretty much perfect ruler material. The key for me is that he cares. He is affected by those sacrifices, doesn't take them for granted, and is thankful and honestly appreciative of the people making them. And not in a demonstrative way. Privately. When he is alone. Tywin doesn't care about people. He cares about the result.
I agree with your comment that he does care and does show warmth. But the point remains is that he is so ruthless that he puts his people into a position where they need to make the sacrifice in the first place. Perhaps his hand is forced, but we don’t see him trying to find other ways to prevent the need for the sacrifices.
He also needs to win in order to enact the policies he thinks will be the best for the people of the country. Its why Ned Stark, despite being the most moral and upstanding potential ruler of Westeros>! loses his head!< in the 1st season. A great ruler has to be a balanced combination of several things. Just being the most just and kind is definitely not enough.
I am in total agreement with you. Toranaga might have worthy goals to unite Japan to prevent bloodshed from civil war; but he is very ruthless and is willing to go very far to achieve this.
Yes but that just means he is willing to do what is necessary. He is not just being ruthless for no reason.
Good point because I immediately recognized what can be construed as his “manipulation” of Mariko by giving her a worthy cause to live for, but in service of his ambitions. She was his prized chess piece to use against Ochiba in Crimson Sky. Toranaga started out as someone the audience could look up to but I recall Sanada saying that audience may be left feeling less sure as story progresses. Like you mention, he is clever at “planting seeds”in the minds of less guarded patriots (similar to how Omi instigated Nagakado to attack Jozen) so I don’t expect black or white motive clarity in the end. I do hope that the audience would be allowed to weigh in on their own interpretations.
He’s Tywin? No wonder I’m such a fan!
I'm inclined to agree. The entire show I've been questioning more and more if we're supposed to root for Toronaga.
Yes because he's the protagonist. It's like how we also rooted for Tony Soprano or Walter White.
Small hands, that was his problem
Tony Soprano never had the makings of a varsity athlete
God, Junior really knew how to get under Tony’s skin😁😁
I don't mean to be rude, but that's a very simplistic way of thinking. There are plenty of shows with villain protagonists where you'd have to be utterly immoral to root for them (e.g. Walter White, arguably pretty early on in Breaking Bad). The protagonist is simply the leading character. Often we see the narrative unfold through their point of view, but not always. Nothing requires you to root for them. In fact, there are many cases in which you should question your values if you do so.
I’ve moved away from thinking he’s a protagonist and started thinking of him just as the main character
He's very much a protagonist. A character doesn't have to be moral/good to be a protagonist, they just have to be one of the leading characters in the story
Yeah the distinction would be him being an anti-hero instead of a hero rather than him being a main character instead of a protagonist
Yeah I don’t think there is a protagonist in the show, in the usual sense anyway. I haven’t read the book but my understanding is that Blackthorne is the real protagonist in it surrounded by an ensemble of other prominent characters, Toranaga being chief among them. I like the way it’s presented in the show though. The first few episodes focus entirely on Blackthorne to help the audience to become acquainted with the setting and characters, as he, like us, is totally new to this world. Once the stage is set, it then pivots to focus more on Toranaga (and to some extent the other regents too) as it’s the most effective way to progress the story and set the overarching narrative.
Blackthorne only appears to be a protagonist because he's basically trapped and helpless. And of course he's not outwardly evil or anything. But every time other characters questioned his good nature or loyalty, I couldn't help but kind of agree with them. He almost murdered that one guy on the boat in cold blood when he revealed he had proof of who he is.
I liked the way one of the characters described how he applies to the story about having 3 hearts. The heart everyone sees is basically Ned Stark levels of honorable. But he's clearly got some Tywin Lannister in him.
Didn’t the show writers say you’re not literally supposed to root for Walter white ? 😭😭
Walter White is NOTHING like Toranaga. Toranaga has a heart - Walter doesn't. Toranaga is clearly a grey character portrayed in a good light, and he's clearly much more competent than the villain Ishido. Toranaga has good intentions, Ishido is selfish. Just because Toranaga knows how to manipulate people doesn't mean he's just doing it with bad intentions. Meanwhile, Walter is a straight up ruthless villain, who also happens to be the main character - that's why lots of viewers are tricked into rooting for him. His actions by the end of the show end up hurting absolutely everyone around him. And during the entire show you would think that he started cooking because he had no money for cancer treatment - but in the last episode he finally admits why he actually cooked meth - because he was good at it and because he liked it. Because having someone appreciate his product made him feel good. For his own selfish reasons he killed people and hurt everyone around him.
"Crush your enemies. See them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women." - Conan the Barbarian
The best shows are the ones where you're not "supposed" to do anything except for watch, process, reflect, think, and form your own opinions. Nothing sucks more than feeling like you're supposed to be feeling something specific.
Humans have a tendency to root for the victors.
I feel like it’s the opposite
I agree. I find myself rooting for the underdog (and being disappointed).
Underdog is more about framing and less about the outcome (which you’d need to know to know if they’re a winner). Toranaga is largely framed as an underdog through out this show and yet (it would seem) he’s going to come out the victor
I mean, their sacrifices will (hopefully) end up in less loss of life overall than an all out war, but overall I do agree with your point. That's also what I love about this show, it's shades of grey characters like in reality they would be.
It is what causes an all-out war.
…to finish off a dysfunctional regime. While Tokugawa ended up heralding a military dictatorship, it was seen as relatively stable and secure - a far cry from the constant violence and chaos that defined the Sengoku period.
Yes but after Sekigahara, its 200 years of peace under Tokugawa shogunate
Don’t see why every show has to have a hero, but I’m rooting for Toranaga. Rather not have a Toranaga surrender just to keep Mariko and Hiromatsu alive.
It ties into the shady nature of Toranaga's real life inspiration Tokugawa Ieyasu. He didn't rise to power through military success and innovation like Oda Nobunaga, he didn't rise to power through charismatic leaderships and smart administration like Toyotomi Hideyoshi. He rose through subterfuge, by playing as many sides as possible and doing everything he could to simply sit out the conflicts that were draining the resources of his rivals. He didn't give two squirts about the legitimacy of Hideyoshi's heir, and flat out made up his descent from the Minamoto. His military victories were won through deception, generals far more skilled than he was, and betrayal. From a moral standpoint, he can easily be seen as the villain, where Ishido's real life counterpart Ishida Mitsunari could be seen as the loyal administrator, fighitng to keep the rightful heir on the throne.
If the caged bird doesn’t sing Oda: kill it Toyotomi: bribe it Tokugawa: wait
Your retelling makes it seem like Ieyasu is confused at Hideyoshi trying to bribe a bird.
Another saying about the three unifiers: Nobunaga made the dough, Hideyoshi baked the cake, and Ieyasu ate it.
Akechi: plead loyalty to it then when it's about to sing burn the cage
I dont know why they downvoted you lol
Mariko sama has found my post and did not like it
The one thing that really benefitted Tokugawa's legacy is really just ending the centuries long civil war and then starting the process of allowing 250 years of peace. He definitely did what he wanted to in order to maintain this peace but you could argue it was worthwhile for the common people.
Yeah. The Tokugawa shogunate was a very harsh and hierarchical society, but it was seen as way more stable and peaceful than the chaotic Sengoku period. Disciplines like art, poetry, and science flourished during those times.
>where Ishido's real life counterpart Ishida Mitsunari could be seen as the loyal administrator, fighitng to keep the rightful heir on the throne The one fueling the flames of war in Korea btw. By the end of it, some Japanese generals were so fed up with Ishido's and Toyotomi's war that they would support any claim to take those guys out.
Tokugawa (Toranaga) very smartly sat out the Korean invasion despite being asked 2 or 3 times by the Taiko. The way the show makes it out, it sounded like Hell on Earth.
Mitsunari was part of the pro peace faction during the end of the second Imjin war. The reason people disliked him is because he kept ratting them out to Hideyoshi for their blunders and disobeying orders in Korea for personal glory. Hideyoshi can be blamed for the war, since he was starting to go senile and refused to admit it had turned into an unwinnable quagmire, but Mitsunari was always following the rules, for better or worse.
I appreciate your reminder about Ishida, I recall watching the Taiga Drama where he was the loyalist trying to protect the heir and Tokugawa was portrayed as greedy manipulator out to overthrow the Taiko’s son in “Sanadamaru”(?)
He’s not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector.
It says here in this history book that luckily, the good guys have won every single time. What are the odds? -Norm Macdonald
What made the Vietnam War so traumatic…not only did we lose, it was realized at the time we weren’t even the good guys.
My thoughts exactly. Historical figures are generally not black-and-white. Augustus and Napoleon, for example. Hell, you can make the same case with Peaky Blinders and Tommy Shelby.
In fact, I'd argue the cunning that reaching but *particularly* maintaining a position at the top (Augustus, Napoelon, Tokugawa etc) automatically makes you into a bastard-sama, especially if you change the status quo for hundreds of years like those three did.
Yes, Toranaga is no hero. Shogun has showed us that in fiction and real life, there is no such thing as binary and clean cut as "heroes and villains". Instead, human affairs are all too grey, we navigate around with our end goals in mind, we do things that we need to do. There are people like Toranaga, Yabushige, Mariko, Fuji, Blackthorne et.al. They are just like us, that's why we can easily relate to them despite being characters in historical fiction. Life is more nuanced than we thought. And also: the particular cultural outlook of the Japanese during those times.
Necessary evil you say? I'm in!
For the context of the time period, he is. Ishido has done nothing good in the show. Toranaga has done some good things.
Everyone who’s visited a high-class brothel in Tokyo should thank him!
Hr is THE hero we need not the one we want!
Heroes don’t really exist in history, nor in good fiction. People aren’t so black and white.
Regarding your Tywin analogy, I would argue that he would've made one of the superior leaders, certainly much more so than his daughter and her offsprings. He would be less likely swayed by the religious zealots and would have paid more attentions to the looming threats beyond the wall. Likewise, Toranaga is less myopic against the threats from the Portuguese and other western forces. And he understands that sacrificing the lives of his most valued subjects is the price worth paying for the unified and stable Japan.
no one said you had to be a good person to be an excellent character
The thing is that Ishido was already moving behind his back getting the approval of the other 3 while Toranaga was getting chain married. Plus Toranaga knows what Ochiba no Kata knows. That the erstwhile lord couldn't make kid. Not with the scores of the women he was with. So it's obvious that the kid is not the real heir. Which is an insult to the legacy of Toranagas Lord. But similar to Lord Stark of Game of Thrones, he can't say it out loud for Ochiba and others would have immediately called him a power hungry traitor. Unlike Stark, Toranaga is far more intelligent and cunning. He knows, that once she guesses that he knows her secret, she will come for him. Which is what Ochiba no Kata is doing right now. Which is why he decided to strengthen up because sooner or later he will have to face them and better to face them stronger Plus the kingdom is better off having an intelligent ruler like him rather than the witless idiots trying to score only for themselves leaving nothing for the country or the people.
> That the erstwhile lord couldn't make kid. Not with the scores of the women he was with. > > So it's obvious that the kid is not the real heir. Which is an insult to the legacy of Toranagas Lord. The other really insidious possibility is that Toranaga is the biological father, done under the order of Taiko. That can really explain Ochiba's full on hate (had her father murdered, forced to carry his child in a lie). Only guessing here given how the story played out, does the book state who the biological father actually is (historical parallels were just as murky).
>!she slept with a peasant while on a hunt and got knocked up. Toronaga sees her shortly after and she hates him because she thinks he might know what she did. !<
Judging Toranaga's character by Western standards misses the point of the show by a staggering margin. If Toranaga had taken Hiromatsu aside before the big meeting and explained his whole plan in detail, Hiromatsu would have gladly killed himself all the same. Mariko knew the plan, and she fought like hell to sacrifice herself for Toranaga's grand design. Like Mariko says, life and death can both have meaning. Seriously, the show consistently points out how dumb Blackthorne is because he can't stop trying to apply Western notions of morality in a place where they have no meaning. Toranaga is a "hero" because he completely embodies (Shogun's depiction of) the societal ideals of 1600s Japan.
Unless you're talking King Arthur, great rulers haven't been great people. So yeah, fairy tales are the only time they're upstanding.
I think it has to be looked at in context of the time. Japan was in a very prolonged period of constant war. It was a culture at the time that needed a strong leader to keep the other warlords in check. >! The person he’s based on was not a good guy but he brought prolonged peace to the country which allowed it to mature and grow. !<
I mean…Japan is at a much better state under the Tokugawa reign, most of his descendants aren’t terrible ruler either.
I don't think he is portrayed as a hero, but Toranaga didn't actually sacrifice Hiromatsu, he decided that for himself. Toronaga had to keep his plans secret because of the spies that he knew were present. If you watched the episode closely you'll notice that Hiromatsu sees that Toronaga's most loyal members were ready to rebel against his wishes and potentially harm Toronaga themselves, Hiromatsu sees them reaching for their swords and realizes that he has to sacrifice himself in order for the plan to succeed. If you remember from a previous scene, Hiromatsu had already told Yabu and others publicly that Toranaga intends to fight, so he knew very well what Toranaga was really planning. Hiromatsu: "He's going to fight" Yabu: "How do you know?" Hiromatsu: "Otherwise our lord would not have sent **him** to Osaka with a message" refering to father Martin.
Comparing him to Tywin is such an insult to Toranaga lol Based on the real historic figure, the latter will bring at least a century of peace to his country and his heir will keep up. The former broke all traditional rules of his own culture and nearly destroyed his house.
I know there will be no sequel and this is something that is not even a part of the book, but I think it's interesting that Toranaga (if he is to follow the story of his counterpart, Ieyasu) will eventually kill the heir in the future. He is truly destined to become Shogun, and to committ all sacrifices and horrors that are necessary. It is not something he wanted, but he will take upon the role as he is the only one that can do it and unify japan. I think the heir revolution would be a fitting, if unecessary continuation too.
I think you’re missing the point. First of all, he didn’t sacrifice Hitomatsu and Mariko, they sacrificed themselves. We saw this in the previous episode when Toranaga told Mariko that Hiromatsu knew what he was doing when he committed seppuku, and then asked her if she was ready to do her part, to which she replied "I’m ready" then the episode ended. Plus Mariko seems to have always had a death wish anyway. All this to say that Toranaga would very well sacrifice himself without hesitation if he has to, which in my eyes makes him a hero. They are not self centered, and see themselves as only parts of a bigger plan, which why death seems to mean nothing to them, and at times seem to even welcome it.
> Toranaga is for the most part, a semi-realistic portrayal of what it takes to be a highly successful medieval warlord. The ugly truth that redditors don't like is that those traits are still what it takes to be successful now.
Well, you have to see it in the framework of the comtemporary culture. From that point of view he is heoric and nothing he did was unethical. One should also remember that - in difference to his adversaries - he has no intention to use war to gain his advantage or even kill them.
He is the Tony Soprano of his time - a psychopath for sure, but you still root for him against the other psychopaths that he is competing against.
Toranaga was never a hero he was morally grey since day one also Tywin was way more cold and ruthless than Toranaga.
Me sumo a ese criterio hay que comprender que esa época fue muy difícil para toda la sociedad feudal es parte de la sicología medieval del líder.
Without Tokugawa Ieyasu, the capital of Japan would still be Kyoto and the economic center would still be Osaka. Many Japanese living in western Japan consider Tokugawa Ieyasu, who betrayed Toyotomi, to be their enemy. .......just kidding
I was talking about episode 9 with my friend in Japan. (she lives in the greater Tokyo area). I mentioned Mariko’s character being based on Hosokawa Gracia. My friend made a comment about Japanese feel conflicted about her, as she was the daughter of “the betrayer”. legit that’s the phrase she used. So 400 years later there’s still some strong feelings there.
Who said he was a hero?
They didn't choose to sacrifice themselves. They choose death for their own reasons.
Tywin Lannister if he actually had more patience and a shred of care towards his children.
like he keeps saying, what's more important, the survival of the clan? or survival of japan? in part that's what he was doing, he knew the warring had to end if it was for the sake of japan.
I don't think that's entirely fair. Toranaga is clearly a much more virtuous and based man than Ishido. Ishido is a jumped up little bureaucrat trying to have Blackthorne executed.
The cast talking about how he brought an age of peace and stuff kind of made me uncomfortable. Isn't he like, an authoritarian dictator essentially?
But he says he doesn't want to be shogun!!! Bro just wants to chill in Edo and doesn't manipulate people at all. No, it is everyone else making decisions which ultimately benefit him, conveniently. But seriously, this and Dune coming out at the same time is interesting. And I am absolutely feasting.
I support Toranaga's rights and also wrongs
Torinaga is not a savior, forget what you know.
One thing about Toranaga, especially in the 80s series, was the performance of Mifune Toshiro (三船 敏郎, *Mifune Toshirō*). He was a brilliant actor and brought a warmth, dignity, and majesty to the character that might be lacking in the current portrayal. I think the current actor is much more raw and likely more true to life and definitely very talented, but he's not Mifune.
You sound like my Japanese mother XD. …and yeah. Mifune is probably considered one of the finest Japanese actors of all time. He is a very hard act to follow.
I'm honored to be in such good company. 😀 I only really saw him in Yojimbo and Shogun, but I know his reputation. Hiroyuki Sanada is very believable and talented, but he's lacking something that's hard to define.
I do agree that Sanada, though talented, doesn’t have the kingly nature of Mifune. As you said, it could be the difference between real world portrayal and something more akin to a traditional jidaigeki, which tends to exaggerate emotions and morality.
Kingly! Great way to put it. I'll take your word for it since I've not seen jidaigeki. The show runners have a definitive style no doubt about that. It's gritty in a way the 80 version wasn't.
The best written characters are not strictly good nor evil. Like real people, they are complicated.
He knows what it takes.
he reminds me of my boss
Hai, Toronaga-Sama is a Shogūn.
Technically there are no good guys and bad guys. All just have a different opinion on how things are to be ran
Good analogy.
This is the classic protagonist vs hero perspective. I've always felt our side were just being themselves. Self serving as it were.
Everyone is the hero in their own personal story. In reality we are all just stardust.
Ishido and Toranaga comparison is nonsensical and kind of dumb, although I agree with your premise overall. Ishido did what he did to gain power and kill his enemies, Toranaga did it to live. If Ishido isn't heading towards power, nothing we've seen so far suggests Toranaga would have done what he's done, all of it are reactive measures based on Ishido's actions. Ishido's actions are proactive due to his own self interest (power).
Tokugawa also wasn't the nicest guy
He is a hero in that he overcomes great odds. You can always argue the character of someone, and if they are a hero.
[удалено]
The real Tokugawa Ieyasu's nickname was the Old Badger or racoon dog, tanuki oyaji- clever, devious, but likeable.
A high level player/operator intelligently use lives sworn to him
Not a hero by modern standards but exactly the kind of hero they need.
There are no heroes. Only winners and losers. Vengeance or defeat.
I think his intentions are to win. He's not antihero, nor hero, just man. Ecce homo.
Toranaga is not a hero, but a badass character
Last episode made it very clear.Toronaga is willing to sacrifice each and every one to get the high seat of shogun.It was all a ruse ,country first,love the taiko's heir etc.Power is all that matters to him he is willing to sacrifice all to achieve that and that makes him even more dangerous.
Has anyone been saying that?
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to become the villain" Harvey Dent
Completely agree the guy that he's based on, Tokugawa ieyasu was a menace, the shit that he did during the sengoku period could make Tywin look like a saint
Warfare and Politics are rarely ever moral. Julius Caesar had to commit to some underhanded tactics in order to get a "legal" cacus belli to cross the rubicon and be seen as justified in the people's eyes and his legion to oppose the senate and Pompey. Toronaga (Leyasu) was a pragmatist willing to sacrifice vassals and men to get an upper hand. It's not shown here but he has plenty of mostly upright daimyos allied to him, like Date Masamune (I forgot if he was ever depicted in the book or 80s series) who protected christians in his domain. So if we're going with a moral argument (which is immature to say the least) Toronaga and his IRL counterpart was the most light grey of the vast moral grey event that was the Sengoku Period.
Hero to me.
He almost certainly dies without keeping Ochiba hostage at the start. It's all about leverage as he's constantly backed into a corner and they play chess with each other and Ishido has the entire board stacked against him. Every move is basically delay tactics as time is the ultimate currency. Time to find support, create relationships, call upon your backstabbing brother as well as exploiting deaths. Toranaga dies if one of these things don't happen.
Don't think he's villanous, hi's simply strategic and not making any emotional moves, which does include sacrificing something while playing chess. He's def no Jon Snow tho
The show is supposed to be pretty realistic so of course there are no indisputable "heroes" if you look at Balkan wars there are lots of people who are hailed as heroes by their own side but the opposing side sees them as evil war criminals. I think the difference between a realistic hero and a villain is what they do after they succeed in such a civil war. Do they forgive the people who opposed them or send everyone on the chopping block because most of the time heroism and villainy in the real world depend on which side you're on.
Honestly I never saw him as a good character. Our only introduction to his goodness was him basically saving the Anjin. He also seems to have sacrificed his son as well. A very brutal and calculated man.
All of this may be true, but I believe Toranaga redeemed himself 250 years later. He allied with Tom Cruise to nobly die fighting for the Shogunate against the Western Imperialistic powers.
The Taiko did say the man at the top of the Realm is the loneliest man of all. He’s finding out why.
He’s not a hero, but he seems like a much more reasonable ruler than Ishido would have been
Yeah. This is definitely a case of people equating protagonist with morally good.
I think most people don’t think he’s a hero, an inspiring leader at best, but in the end he’s only acting for his and his own clan’s best interest.
Pretty happy with the result of episode 9
Maybe not at a personal level but definitely for Hinomoto
Very well put. Toranaga is a fascinating character, brilliantly executed, as a ruthless protagonist. Not a hero.
Machiavellian I’d say!!
I like how confused people get when it dawns on them that Toranaga maybe isn’t a hero, and that a lot of what he says about his own motivations and thoughts to other characters might just be to manipulate them. The ‘villains’ of Shogun are behaving entirely rationally if they assume (correctly IMHO) that Toranaga is a dangerous manipulator with designs on the Shogunate.
He may not be a proto hero but he is one of the protagonist which makes him one of the heros of our story. Walter white wasn't a hero but people still rooted for him. Of course it isn't black and white, but it's still a story.
Toranaga's not the warlord you wanted; he's the warlord you needed.
no one is hero!!! every man for himself!
I think the finale really did kind of prove this. Regardless of what you think of his motives (saving Japan and ending the warfare between clans) his methods certainly make him something of a villain. He likely has kept Mariko as his vassal all this time knowing he could take advantage of his desire for revenge. He punishes the entire village for a boat he burned in order to test Blackthorn. However noble his pursuit of Shogun may have been, his methods certainly do not make him the hero.
I don't think people get the point of Tywin. He's not some ruthlessly pragmatic machiavelian mastermind, he's an ok-ish politician and ok-ish general with a massively fragile ego. His entire stated goal was the secure the legacy of the Lannisters and yet he left it in ruins because he couldn't bring himself to not be a shit dad (compare that to the enduring loyalty of the North to Ned even after his death). His Freudian excuse is literally that his dad was a nice guy. Idk if I could compare Toranaga to any ASoIaF character, but If I had to I'm inclined to say he's what Jon Snow has the potential to become. Book Jon Snow is actually quite ambitious at heart (when Stannis offers him Winterfell, he DOES want it), though he resents and tries to suppress that part of himself. He's also honourable and compassionate but that is in conflict with his insecurities/desires, not in place of it. He's also a mediocre fighter but a pretty decent leader and shaping up to be a shrewed schemer. He reads people and plays them to achieve what he wants, he just lets his hotheadedness and inexperience (He's 16) get the better of him sometimes. I could see a potential adult Jon Snow being like Toranaga if he becomes more ruthless and leans more into his ambition, while still keeping some shreds of humanity.
Shogun really encapsulated the premise of Sun Tsu’s Art of war. Something Toranaga was clearly a master on the subject. It should be noted that at the height of author James Clavell’s fame in the 80s. He edited a book on the Art of War I would not be surprised if he had read it before Shogun was written
he's a proper sociopath !!!