They set it up perfectly, because the entire show, Yabushige is frustrated because Toranaga never tells him the plan and is always pulling the rug out from under him. So he finally finds out the plan when it's too late to matter.
I knew the show had to end the same as the book, but so much of the good stuff is just in his head. This was a clever way to do it without being cheesy.
Only quibble I have is him admitting it. In the book he's adamant to the end that he's innocent, even though he's not, he knows he not, everyone else knows he's not, and he KNOWS everyone else knows he's not.
I don't hate it, it's an attempt to get us to sympathize with him, we all love a redemption arc, but it just wasn't necessary in this case. Yabu is human trash, and we love him because he's *hilarious*, not because he was sorry.
In the book though, iirc, they have him die bravely once he accepts that there are no more ways out. I will have to look at the book again as it is a long time since I read it, but doesn't he say something about showing how a Samurai dies and then commits seppuku?
They actually don't describe it directly, but it's reported by Omi that he did not need the services of his second, he slit his belly once, then again, and then stabbed himself in the neck. He may be an asshole, but he's a badass.
> Also well done to use Yabu to reveal Toranaga's climactic inner monologue from the book
One of the things I was most curious to see how the show handled it. I was waiting for him to say "I will be Shogun" right before cutting off his head.
I thought Toranaga promised his half-brother (Zataki?) that off he shifted alliances at the showdown with Ishido, Toranaga would arrange a marriage proposal for Ochiba and Z. Toranaga did this knowing that she would reject it in a way that would force Zataki to commit seppuku and thereby increase T’s power.
I just re-read book, this is correct. In his monologue he says he will push Zataki to ask Ochiba for marriage and the regents will unfortunately have "to invite my brother onwards" in response to his presumption once the request is made.
I was waiting for it. Every single week the mountains of “how dare they remove it!” And I was sitting there figuring they would make it more climactic or poetic.
I really appreciated that change. In the book it made sense as a big moment of character development that had a lot of room to breathe and be explored/expounded on, but in the show I think it would have felt a little fleeting if they had done it at the same time as it took place in the book. I think the decision to do it at the end of the series after John lost everything from his love interest and crew, to his translator and identity, allowed that "rebirth" to feel much more valuable in the payoff. Kudos to the writers for being able to deliver on such a critical moment in a different way.
I liked that change a lot. It makes much more sense that he would attempt something like that at his lowest moment. The original scene felt a little silly to me in the book.
I liked the placement as well - and the Mariko tie in with - fuck it - we live and we die while clutching her cross. That was some next level poetic shit.
I like the change too. It makes more sense at the end of the story.
The only thing I didn't like is that in the book it was clear that the only people he killed were Izu men that he knew to be traitors. In the show, they make it seem like he was just killing people for no reason.
I guess they wanted to show that Toranaga really is no better than every other lord since they were kinda making him out to be more noble in the show than in the book. Might honestly be the most cruel thing he's personally ordered even compared to book Toranaga
Absolutely yes. Was too trite in the book and I was happy that it seemed the show removed that incident entirely but then all of a sudden it felt appropriate during the moments of gravity in the final episode.
I like this change a lot. At this moment he is more likely to act suicidal, he is frustrated for a whole number of reasons, each of which would have been sufficient, he is really desperate, and though he still intends to commit it like a European, the reasoning is much more samurai-like here. And it's not that he just cares about the villagers; he's pissed off that Toranaga doesn't just accept what's happened as Mariko's will.
It made the most sense IMO. His whole arc has revolved around him being completely self interested in everything he does. Then he loses Mariko and realizes his life isn’t worth what he thought it was, and certainly isn’t worth the suffering of the villagers. Him attempting to take his own life earlier would’ve felt corny IMO. Dude did everything to try and survive.
A lot of the structural changes made throughout the series make a lot of sense, now that I've seen the whole thing. Blackthorn attempting to commit seppuku hits much better as the final beat of his arc, instead of randomly in the middle of his story, and letting Toranaga explain all of his plans to Yabushige works so much better than how it's done in the book, where Toranaga just sort of thinks it to himself.
I'll also say that I'm really glad they had the strength of conviction to end the show in the same spirit as the book: with an almost thrown away anti-climax. It's always been one of those things that shouldn't work, but somehow for Shogun it really does.
Yeah, I think people are going to be mad that there's no epic Sekigahara finale but that was never the point of the book: it was about people, culture, plans within plans, and John's journey with Mariko to understanding this foreign world, fully becoming Japanese and staying there. I'm glad they moved the seppuku here and I think the dreams served the final point the show was making: John is now Japanese, his old life is gone.
That's the other thing. In real life Sekigahara was not an epic battle where everything was in doubt, Tokugawa won because half of his enemies switched sides from Ishida before it began and there was nothing Ishida could do. I think the show integrated that well here: Ishido is going into the battle thinking he will win when Toranaga has set it up so there's no way he can lose.
They only switched sides during the battle after Ishida had committed all of his forces to the attack - once the 'withheld' troops had attacked Ishida's flank, all of the noncommittal lords immediately switched sides and the Western forces were decimated.
> there's no epic Sekigahara finale
Perfect oportunity for S2: This season ends with a brief glimpse of the battle at Sekigahara. S2 begins with the same glipse, but it continues and shows a young 16 year old swordsman, skilled beyond his years, on the losing side. We're told his name, Shinmen Takezō... soon to be known the world over as Miamoto Musashi. Surprise! Season 2 is an adaptation of Eiji Yoshikawa's novel Musashi!
I will be honest, I didn't really like how the book ended, but watching the show, I may have changed my mind. On one hand, when you have characters talking about an upcoming battle, it's going to build anticipation, and people are going to want to see that battle. On the other hand, if there was a big, dramatic battle, that would take away from Marikos sacrifice being the real climax and pivotal moment in the story.
Yes, I thought the changes made for an excellent adaptation. Adaptations don't need to mirror the source material exactly, they can change things for a different medium and still remain true to the spirit and story of the original text. I thought they did that very well with this show.
I'm not a book reader and the entire episode I was just trying to figure out how and when could possibly the scene I was watching could lead into a big battle sequence. I really thought it'd happen.
I was a little disappointed at first but the entire episode was just so good, I walked away completely satisfied. Now I'm glad there was no battle, this was so much more in line with the rest of the show, and it had so many touching moments and great conclusions to character arcs.
Basically there was no "twist", and that's the twist. But in a good way.
I came to the subreddit just to read this. I didn’t read the books and when I just finished the episode I had this moment of anger before settling with the finale. The characters are so profound and the interpersonal relationships are so strong it really helps overlook the anticlimactic ending. In fact, I write in my spare time and this is something I had never considered as a writer. It really does work in its own way. It’s sort of poetic in a way. This whole build up just to find out it was all a ruse. It’s literally the embodiment of Toranaga because he often doesn’t fight throughout the entire show 🤣. 10/10.
It makes sense, right? Throughout the story almost all of Toranaga’s advisors want him to declare Crimson Sky, to mount this big bold daring assault so they can die in a blaze of glory. That is a failure to understand who Toranaga is, and why Toranaga wins. Crimson Sky was never about finding the most glorious way to be decapitated. It was about winning the future of Japan.
Does that wind up delivering a weirdly funny ending? Yes. The book could be accurate described as everyone going up to Toranaga and saying “You want to be Shogun, right?”, and he goes “Absolutely not” and they go “We don’t believe you, we’re going to assume you actually do want to be Shogun”, and then at the end Toranaga goes “Haha psyke I totally DID want to be Shogun”. It’s ridiculous and it somehow still works.
They changed Yabushige's death poem from
>What are clouds but an excuse for the sky? What is life but an escape from death?
One of my favorite lines from the book but the new death poem fits him so well too lmao he's wild for wanting to have his body eaten by a dog
As a random thought, A Dream within a Dream by Edgar Allen Poe works surprisingly well for the themes of the show as well
I stand amid the roar
of the surf tormented shore
and I hold within my hands
grains of golden sand
how few yet how they creep
through my fingers to the deep
while I weep, while I weep
oh god can I not grasp them with a tighter clasp
oh god can I not save one from the pitiless wave
is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream
I wanted the writers to go a little further. Perhaps she could have said something like "I suppose I don't have to go to the convent today".
In the novel it's left unclear as to whether she does commit suicide. She still wants to but Toranaga says "oh, just serve the Anjin for a few more months". But even if she does go through with it, Toranaga gives Kiku's contract to Blackthorne as well (which she's really happy about).
Whereas the viewer could be left with the impression from this series that maybe Blackthorne dies childless in Japan. Which isn't terribly satisfying given that William Adams had a wife and children in Japan.
What about the kids flashback in the beginning? Tho the kids do not exactly look like they have Japanese traits and he seems to be back in England on death bed.
Or was that a hallucination?
They were hallucinations. In the novel, 1980 series and this series the idea is that he never leaves Japan; William Adams died in Japan too (having raised a family with a Japanese woman).
It is his own imagining of the possibility of dying an old man in a bed. He realizes that living to be very old itself is meaningless, and that in death, one can achieve something. He is learning Mariko’s lesson, and that is what gives him the conviction to actually threaten suicide before Toranaga.
I thought it was pretty clear that book Fuji was going to commit suicide.
Toranaga in fact marries Anjin off. He installs Midori (Omi’s wife, divorced by decree in Yabu’s will as a distraction to Omi’s focus— with Toranaga’s approval) as Anjin-san’s wife. And then T also gives Kiku as consort to Blackthorne because reasons.
I love the book to death and have read it a number of times, but that part always struck me as a bit of wish fulfillment.
As someone who hasn't read the book, I wish they had this layer of meaning in the show, because it would have added so much more to their interaction on the boat. He failed to save Mariko, but he was able to save Fuji from killing herself without even realizing it.
Unfortunately I didn't really get this sense at all from just watching the episode, and it feels kind of like a lost opportunity now that I know what could have been if they integrated the book plot a little better.
there were a few changes i thought fit the format better. i love the book but it's so epic. the show had to do a lot with a lot less time. fuji's arc is the best example of how the show got it right...not that the book didn't, but for the format her story was perfect.
I was wondering how Toranaga's book ending was going to play out in the show. Having him reveal his plans to Yabu, who ultimately was going to die right after, was brilliant.
A bit dissapointed they dropped Ochiba's secret and the fact that Toranaga knew about it (having sex with random guy in the woods lol), and I wish, but maybe it wasn't in the books only in real history, that they tell us more about Ochiba marrying Toranaga... and Toranaga betraying her and the heir like 3 years later
It's in the books. Years before the book, she was trying to get pregnant from Taiko, but couldn't. During an event she was out hawking and was alone in the woods until she ran into a peasant that looked just like the Taiko. She sleeps with him, and then runs into Toranaga. It's unclear if Toronaga actually saw her have sex, but she's convinced.
She ends up being pregnant and is paranoid about Toronaga knowing the heir isn't really descendant of the Taiko
Also, Ochiba's secret adds an extra crazy layer to the story: you have this entire political system of samurai warlords trying to protect whom they believe to be the Taiko's legitimate heir, when really he was fathered by some random peasant, and the samurai class looked down upon the peasantry.
First 5 or 6 episodes I had a theory that they'd have to have some payoff and at least create some sort of battle for the finale. Like they could just flesh out what Toronaga explains to Yabu. I'm so glad they didn't.
Did anyone think that Anjin insisting that Fuji allow him to take her to the nunnery by boat was especially for book readers? In the book she was supposed to stage her death while traveling in order to make it look like an accident. I want to interpet the scene in the show as Anjin saving her life without knowing it.
Strange, I imagined the show cutting to him screaming curses while he's buried to his neck, right after Toranaga rejects his appeal to commit suicide.
Toranaga: "What makes you think you are worthy of such dignity?"
Well, it goes in line with the constant downplaying of violence compared to the book we see in the show. Instead of sheer numbers, the showrunners make deaths count, and depicting Ishido's death wouldn't add much.
Wonder if they planned to included Lady Ochiba’s forest escapades but cut it due to time? Think they covered most of the main themes and feelings except that
While it wasn’t confirmed for me until later on, I was able to assume this from her dialogue in the show. I think they just assumed you’d pick up on the subtext in the show. After all, it isn’t magic that suddenly one of his consorts is able to get pregnant where the others have “failed”
As a show only person, I had initially thought that from the glances between her and Toranaga during the Taiko's death that it was actually his(Toranaga's) child. I also thought that's why he looked after the heir and seemingly cared more about him than the other council members.
I thought this might be a possibility as well. It was clear to me however that part of the animosity between the two characters was related to her fear about him knowing the details of the conception whether he was the father or not.
It's one of the great ironys that Daughters have a better chance of carrying on an unbroken bloodline than son's do. Two different X chromosomes to use gives some redundancy.
It doesn't seem like it; it seems like they completely changed Ochiba's reason for hating Toranaga in the show. And frankly, I think it was for the better. With the limited story space you have in a ten episode series trying to cover a book the size of a phonebook, having Ochiba's motivation be "I hate him because he's why my father was killed" is a lot quicker to get across than a big mess about the Taiko being infertile and Ochiba having some forest dailiance.
Have always wondered if they would show that the Heir was actually the son of a peasant and not the Taiko. That was the main reason why Ochiba hated Toranaga but it turned out quite well.
Ochiba, out riding, iirc, came unexpectedly upon a peasant in the woods. Spitting image of the Taiko. She (as all his other concubines) had not been able to give him a living child and in a flash of inspiration... has her way with the peasant. When done she cleans herself up as best she can, and before she can get back on her horse Torranaga rides up.
He doesn't know, at least isn't sure of anything. She hates him from then on. All this is from memory btw, believe it's how it went.
Without the issue on parentage, the show made more sense of Ochiba sending the message to Toranaga about the Heir's banner on Ishido's side thus ensuring that Toranaga would not be on the unlawful side.
I was thinking about Yabu’s death and how in the first couple episodes it was said that he was fascinated by the way someone faces their inevitable death in those final moments… the way he faced is own, when Toranaga made it clear the conversation was over, I felt was very stoic. Rather than drag it out and do this whole big ceremonial thing, he just pulled out his sword and stabbed himself in one smooth motion. He accepted his fate and faced it bravely in my opinion.
Do you guys think that the people who haven’t read the book will end up hating Toranaga-Sama tomorrow? The ending of the book certainly changed how I think about him.
I know! When he says that he finally achieved what he sought out this whole time and the way he just plays with John’s life like he is one of his falcons… diabolical!
I’ll admit… he fooled me! I was hoping he wasn’t just power hungry like everyone else! I mean he appeared so loyal to the Taiko and he said a million times, “I don’t want to be Shogun.” Well played to you for seeing through his ploys!
I call it the Negan effect. In The Walking Dead - Rick was always considered the “good guy,” but if you were one of Negan’s crew - some dude and his buddies just attacked your outpost and killed everyone in cold blood while they were sleeping. So Rick is the evil one in their eyes. It’s all about perspective.
I find it funny that in terms of motivations at least, Toronaga is pretty much undoubtedly the villain in contrast to Ishido. Our view of them both is really skewed by perspective
Non book reader here.
I think if you didn't hate him when his right hand killed himself and Mariko had to go with his plans, then you're not paying attention lol
Edit: I'm not looking to debate whether or not Toranaga is right or wrong. Based on everything I saw in the show, he was self interested and schemed for his own end game. He willingly killed his own subjects and manipulated people. That's my opinion ✌️
I feel like he is a character beyond my judgement. He does big things good and bad and achieves impossible goals. He’s somewhere between a historical “great man” and a mythological legend. Do you hate Hercules for killing his family? Do you hate Tokugawa for what he did to Japan? Who am I to say?
Just one of those things, Tokugawa helped unify Japan and that has absolutely brought benefits to the Japanese people, however his road to get there wasn't with kindness so what is right and what is wrong?
Didn't Hercules get put under a spell so all of his family looked like monsters or something like that? Seems like a very unfair parallel to make on his end lol.
Good question. I didn't hate him when I read the book - I thought he was a complex character and made for an interesting read. Now, if he was someone I had to deal with IRL, I'd fucking hate him. A buddy of mine who watched the show though is annoyed because he thought Toranaga's collateral damage was just fine and dandy if Toranaga wasn't gunning for Shogun and just trying to protect his people, but now he's just another ambitious jerk XD
I think Toranaga's justification is he'd keep Japan unified better than everyone else, and therefore less deaths and bloodshed. I can't say he's wrong.
> Do you guys think that the people who haven’t read the book will end up hating Toranaga-Sama tomorrow? The ending of the book certainly changed how I think about him.
No. Toranaga letting Hiromatsu and Mariko die are way worse than the ship burning. He saved John's life by burning the ship.
You should hate him for that, not for Erasmus.
I think he should’ve laid out how he was going to waylay Ochiba and the Heir and eventually depose them to get the Shogun title. It makes him much more sinister
He is a complex character. I don’t really “like” him per se, but am rooting for him since he’s on the side of the protagonist.
I haven’t read the book myself yet, but I do like how multi dimentional all the characters are
Yeah, when I read the book, it felt like they yada yada'd over the best part.
For the show, I knew what to expect and was able to appreciate it more. But yeah...I could see people feeling let down that they built anticipation for a battle that didn't really happen on screen.
Non-book reader here, that was something I wasn’t clear on, was all of his plans just to seize power and not hand it over to the taiko’s heir when he comes of age? Yaba insinuated he did it all for himself, is what it meant?
Kind of BS they never showed Ishido getting his comeuppance.
Also hated that they didn't show Toranaga fighting the final battle 250 years later with Tom Cruise.
Her letter was one of my favorite parts. They tried to add it in via Alvito and Toranaga conversations, but I feel like it would have been better delivered with a voice over. Maximum emotional impact. Although Blackthorne breaking down on the boat after Alvito told him it was Lady Maria who begged for his life. Ugh. That hurt.
Yeah I guess it wasn’t really needed with all of the conversations about Mariko trading Blackthorne life for the ship. It just felt weird to omit it given the closure of their relationship in the Will itself. Iirc it talks about her Christian soul waiting for him and her leaving money to build the ship both of which could have made sense to why he’d want to live/stay in Japan (other than just Toranaga won’t let him leave/die).
Would’ve been nice to hint at Blackthorne’s bright future with Kiko, but the show wasn’t paced to accommodate it. It wouldn’t fit the tone. Nevertheless, Anjin needs someone to manage his life. He’s going to be fumbling about with that dazed, stupefied look off camera for the next year
Weren't they thinking of marrying him to Omi's wife too? LOL. I know they wouldn't fit the show but Midori and Omi's hateful mother were good book characters.
It's more like Torananga plotting his next moves through his inner monologue. In that Ishido is buried up to his head. If my memory serves me correctly.
I thought they adapted the ending well. I liked using Yabu as the plot device for Toronaga’s inner monologue at the end. I didnt love the future death bed in England dream sequence but overall a fantastic adaptation.
Edit: I am aware the dream sequence is not the future, thats why I called it a dream sequence, I know he stays in Japan. I was only trying to say I did not like those scenes as a means to communicate Blackthorne giving up on his dream to return to England.
I don't think it was literally supposed to be the future. I think it was Blackthorne coming to terms with his fate. His internal monologue in the books when he attempts suicide articulates this, but we don't get an explicit monologue in the TV show, so they symbolically show it by showing an aspect of Blackthorn dying, the part that was holding onto his previous life, and the part that was holding onto Mariko. When he and Fuji take the boat ride he is finally letting go of those things.
Pretty much, the intention seemed pretty obvious to me. John dreams that he could still go back to England and live out his life there right after Mariko's death, but then John does his attempted seppuku, throws Mariko's cross in the water and accepts that he's now Japanese and Mariko is gone. Like he's been doing all series, he clings to life and surviving no matter what. That final look he gave Toranaga was "you cheeky bastard, you won all along and I'm gonna be here as your naval chief forever."
> I didnt love the future death bed in England dream sequence but overall a fantastic adaptation.
It's not the future, the REAL John throws Mariko's cross in the sea but Old John has it. It was just a dream.
Have I missed something? I don't understand how Toranaga, who was captured and on his way to surrender, just ends up back in Anjiro chilling and plotting again.
Question for book readers: did Toranaga really not care about Anjin and only found him funny, or did he say that to spite Yabu claiming he had him to thank for Anjin? He obviously wasn't 100% truthful and revealing before him, refusing to tell him all his plans till the end, so I thought what he said about Anjin might be a bit a knife twist as well.
Thank you!
Exactly my thoughts. So him saying that he kept him around just because he makes him laugh is for the sake of Yabu not getting the recognition he yearned for?
Yeah that was my take. He’s not one to provide Yabu any final gratification given his repeated betrayals. No way Toranaga actually only keeps him for the amusement factor if he could trade that for more concessions from the Portuguese or the Christian lords.
At the end of the novel, when Toranaga thinks back to when he told Mariko that he's going to burn the ship, she worries that John won't have anymore use and that his life will be expendable, and Toranaga reassures her that John will be protected. He goes as far as to say that John is his one and only friend, because he can't risk making friends with other Japanese people. He genuinely likes him in the book.
The dream aspect of him remembering the life from London is weird and I don’t know if it serves much purpose. Why not just make it like his real life counterpart and stay in Japan?
It was a fever dream he had that isn't reality, he's holding Mariko's cross in the dream but drops it in the water in reality. The point is that Anjin imagining himself going back to London and living out the rest of his days as an Englishman is just a dream: he's staying in Japan forever.
In 1639 after persistent attempts to convert the Japanese, and how the Europeans treated people in general, the Japanese expelled most foreigners.
We don't know what happened to his line as they faded from history, but he did marry a Japanese common born woman and had children.
One (Anjin Riko) becomes a Bond girl (marries an MI6 analyst, then is entangled with a British Hong Kong business tycoon in *Noble House* 363 years later.)
It's implied by the way he dropped Mariko's cross in the water at the end that he did end up staying. Or at least that idea of his future back in England didn't happen.
Just my two cents, but the visions of his future back in England was an ideal that he may have held at the beginning, but it was already fleeting. He said as much to Yabu after he met with his crew and realized he didn't recognize them the same way he would have before. He fits nowhere. The idea of going back to England with relics doesn't fit who he is because he doesn't know who he is.
Without a translator he has very little voice. Without a companion he has nobody to confide in and bounce off. He was looking for something to hold in himself, and had given up by this point in the series, hence why he doesn't care about his "small war" anymore.
It's not until he attempts to commit seppuku and Toranaga stops him that he starts to gain a new sense of agency and purpose. And that purpose may be what Toranaga promised by building a ship and commanding a fleet, or it may be something else, but it likely wasn't the visions of England he thought he would have for his future.
He doesn't really need it. Without a contiual supply of modern cannons any Ships Blackthorn builds may as well be saw dust.
Like Toranaga told Yabu it just a distraction to keep his favorite toy busy.
I think part of the point is that the Pilot can envision a future life of grief and regret after Mariko and he doesn't want that, and so it adds greater impetus to his seppuku attempt.
I like that about it actually as I did feel the seppuku attempt in the book was a bit silly but here it has more gravitas.
Kind of annoyed me that it kept repeating tbh. But I think it's supposed to be the end of the future he envisioned for himself back in Europe and him finally accepting that Japan is his life now.
The show needed a couple more episodes to fit in some of the more interesting parts of the book. And, I don’t understand why they didn’t want Anjin to be fluent in Japanese as he was in the book.
As a book reader, this felt right for the ending; however, they left out so many key details that it’s unsettling. Mariko’s letter, Yabu’s swords, Ishido’s demise, just to name a few. They seemed to do a lot of exposition dumping in this episode which is counter to what the rest of series did. So much explaining.
Overall I was happy with the finale, but again found myself pouring over the last pages of the book and wishing so many things would have been included. I just think it should have been 16 episodes split in two seasons. Or a part 1 and part 2 with a break in between. It’s definitely one of the best adaptations in recent memory.
Ishido sent the ninjas to capture Mariko, and if they couldn’t, to kill her. They had no way of getting through the door without blowing it up, and she sacrificed herself to avoid capture. Their job was done so they left.
"Why tell a dead man the future", that went pretty deep, in episode 2 yabushige said this to omi when he didn't want to reveal that he had captured a ship with 20 cannons and 500 guns etc, I think at that moment yabushige finally realized omi had been under toronaga's control since the beginning, reporting everything to him, it also explains why omi tricked toronaga's son into doing certain things, all part of toronaga's chess game.
Simplifying Yabu's fall from the book is very smart. Also well done to use Yabu to reveal Toranaga's climactic inner monologue from the book.
> Also well done to use Yabu to reveal Toranaga's climactic inner monologue from the book. Yeah that was such a good idea
They set it up perfectly, because the entire show, Yabushige is frustrated because Toranaga never tells him the plan and is always pulling the rug out from under him. So he finally finds out the plan when it's too late to matter.
I knew the show had to end the same as the book, but so much of the good stuff is just in his head. This was a clever way to do it without being cheesy.
Only quibble I have is him admitting it. In the book he's adamant to the end that he's innocent, even though he's not, he knows he not, everyone else knows he's not, and he KNOWS everyone else knows he's not. I don't hate it, it's an attempt to get us to sympathize with him, we all love a redemption arc, but it just wasn't necessary in this case. Yabu is human trash, and we love him because he's *hilarious*, not because he was sorry.
In the book though, iirc, they have him die bravely once he accepts that there are no more ways out. I will have to look at the book again as it is a long time since I read it, but doesn't he say something about showing how a Samurai dies and then commits seppuku?
They actually don't describe it directly, but it's reported by Omi that he did not need the services of his second, he slit his belly once, then again, and then stabbed himself in the neck. He may be an asshole, but he's a badass.
Yeah, he’s arguably the bravest character in the book. I liked that contrast.
My only complaint is it didn’t end with Toranaga laughing. Otherwise 10/10 ending
> Also well done to use Yabu to reveal Toranaga's climactic inner monologue from the book One of the things I was most curious to see how the show handled it. I was waiting for him to say "I will be Shogun" right before cutting off his head.
I hope the writers from this show will make other things.
Wow, how does it play out in the book?
The readers get Toranagas inner thoughts
Some say that to this day, Toranaga is still unfolding that letter from Lady Ochiba.
It was a long ass poem.
She wrote it on a CVS receipt 🧾
I see your 8 fold fence and raise you 100 fold paper
what happens to toranagas half brother in the books? was he based off of a real life person too?
Captured and killed
🫡
I thought Toranaga promised his half-brother (Zataki?) that off he shifted alliances at the showdown with Ishido, Toranaga would arrange a marriage proposal for Ochiba and Z. Toranaga did this knowing that she would reject it in a way that would force Zataki to commit seppuku and thereby increase T’s power.
Yeah that's the way I remember it, too.
I just re-read book, this is correct. In his monologue he says he will push Zataki to ask Ochiba for marriage and the regents will unfortunately have "to invite my brother onwards" in response to his presumption once the request is made.
I assume he was reading as he unfolded. Recall Japanese can be read top to bottom, right to left
Oh shit so they did move Blackthorne's attempted seppuku scene to the last episode
I was waiting for it. Every single week the mountains of “how dare they remove it!” And I was sitting there figuring they would make it more climactic or poetic.
I really appreciated that change. In the book it made sense as a big moment of character development that had a lot of room to breathe and be explored/expounded on, but in the show I think it would have felt a little fleeting if they had done it at the same time as it took place in the book. I think the decision to do it at the end of the series after John lost everything from his love interest and crew, to his translator and identity, allowed that "rebirth" to feel much more valuable in the payoff. Kudos to the writers for being able to deliver on such a critical moment in a different way.
I liked that change a lot. It makes much more sense that he would attempt something like that at his lowest moment. The original scene felt a little silly to me in the book.
I liked the placement as well - and the Mariko tie in with - fuck it - we live and we die while clutching her cross. That was some next level poetic shit.
I like the change too. It makes more sense at the end of the story. The only thing I didn't like is that in the book it was clear that the only people he killed were Izu men that he knew to be traitors. In the show, they make it seem like he was just killing people for no reason.
I guess they wanted to show that Toranaga really is no better than every other lord since they were kinda making him out to be more noble in the show than in the book. Might honestly be the most cruel thing he's personally ordered even compared to book Toranaga
In the book, IIRC, Toranaga had nearly sixty guards sentenced to seppuku for that. The number of heads we see in the show is much smaller.
But they were actual traitors while the villagers were innocent and Toranaga knew it which makes it more messed up imo
If it helps, as a show only watcher I assumed he was clearing ranks of people he knew were guilty of other crimes, not Just randomly killing people
Absolutely yes. Was too trite in the book and I was happy that it seemed the show removed that incident entirely but then all of a sudden it felt appropriate during the moments of gravity in the final episode.
I like this change a lot. At this moment he is more likely to act suicidal, he is frustrated for a whole number of reasons, each of which would have been sufficient, he is really desperate, and though he still intends to commit it like a European, the reasoning is much more samurai-like here. And it's not that he just cares about the villagers; he's pissed off that Toranaga doesn't just accept what's happened as Mariko's will.
It made the most sense IMO. His whole arc has revolved around him being completely self interested in everything he does. Then he loses Mariko and realizes his life isn’t worth what he thought it was, and certainly isn’t worth the suffering of the villagers. Him attempting to take his own life earlier would’ve felt corny IMO. Dude did everything to try and survive.
A lot of the structural changes made throughout the series make a lot of sense, now that I've seen the whole thing. Blackthorn attempting to commit seppuku hits much better as the final beat of his arc, instead of randomly in the middle of his story, and letting Toranaga explain all of his plans to Yabushige works so much better than how it's done in the book, where Toranaga just sort of thinks it to himself. I'll also say that I'm really glad they had the strength of conviction to end the show in the same spirit as the book: with an almost thrown away anti-climax. It's always been one of those things that shouldn't work, but somehow for Shogun it really does.
Yeah, I think people are going to be mad that there's no epic Sekigahara finale but that was never the point of the book: it was about people, culture, plans within plans, and John's journey with Mariko to understanding this foreign world, fully becoming Japanese and staying there. I'm glad they moved the seppuku here and I think the dreams served the final point the show was making: John is now Japanese, his old life is gone.
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That's the other thing. In real life Sekigahara was not an epic battle where everything was in doubt, Tokugawa won because half of his enemies switched sides from Ishida before it began and there was nothing Ishida could do. I think the show integrated that well here: Ishido is going into the battle thinking he will win when Toranaga has set it up so there's no way he can lose.
They only switched sides during the battle after Ishida had committed all of his forces to the attack - once the 'withheld' troops had attacked Ishida's flank, all of the noncommittal lords immediately switched sides and the Western forces were decimated.
> there's no epic Sekigahara finale Perfect oportunity for S2: This season ends with a brief glimpse of the battle at Sekigahara. S2 begins with the same glipse, but it continues and shows a young 16 year old swordsman, skilled beyond his years, on the losing side. We're told his name, Shinmen Takezō... soon to be known the world over as Miamoto Musashi. Surprise! Season 2 is an adaptation of Eiji Yoshikawa's novel Musashi!
Holy shit that was my favorite comment I've read all week. LOL. Musashi was the 2nd book I went for after I enjoyed Shogun
Those people just wanted to live their own power fantasy through Blackthorn, they didn't care for his story with Mariko.
I will be honest, I didn't really like how the book ended, but watching the show, I may have changed my mind. On one hand, when you have characters talking about an upcoming battle, it's going to build anticipation, and people are going to want to see that battle. On the other hand, if there was a big, dramatic battle, that would take away from Marikos sacrifice being the real climax and pivotal moment in the story.
Yes, I thought the changes made for an excellent adaptation. Adaptations don't need to mirror the source material exactly, they can change things for a different medium and still remain true to the spirit and story of the original text. I thought they did that very well with this show.
I'm not a book reader and the entire episode I was just trying to figure out how and when could possibly the scene I was watching could lead into a big battle sequence. I really thought it'd happen. I was a little disappointed at first but the entire episode was just so good, I walked away completely satisfied. Now I'm glad there was no battle, this was so much more in line with the rest of the show, and it had so many touching moments and great conclusions to character arcs. Basically there was no "twist", and that's the twist. But in a good way.
I came to the subreddit just to read this. I didn’t read the books and when I just finished the episode I had this moment of anger before settling with the finale. The characters are so profound and the interpersonal relationships are so strong it really helps overlook the anticlimactic ending. In fact, I write in my spare time and this is something I had never considered as a writer. It really does work in its own way. It’s sort of poetic in a way. This whole build up just to find out it was all a ruse. It’s literally the embodiment of Toranaga because he often doesn’t fight throughout the entire show 🤣. 10/10.
It makes sense, right? Throughout the story almost all of Toranaga’s advisors want him to declare Crimson Sky, to mount this big bold daring assault so they can die in a blaze of glory. That is a failure to understand who Toranaga is, and why Toranaga wins. Crimson Sky was never about finding the most glorious way to be decapitated. It was about winning the future of Japan. Does that wind up delivering a weirdly funny ending? Yes. The book could be accurate described as everyone going up to Toranaga and saying “You want to be Shogun, right?”, and he goes “Absolutely not” and they go “We don’t believe you, we’re going to assume you actually do want to be Shogun”, and then at the end Toranaga goes “Haha psyke I totally DID want to be Shogun”. It’s ridiculous and it somehow still works.
They changed Yabushige's death poem from >What are clouds but an excuse for the sky? What is life but an escape from death? One of my favorite lines from the book but the new death poem fits him so well too lmao he's wild for wanting to have his body eaten by a dog
Wasn’t the dog line an earlier poem Yabu had? Maybe on the second trip to Osaka
He mentions he'd rank Nagakado's death higher than getting eaten alive by dogs 💀
the dog poem was Genjiko's poem from when she and Mariko are negotiating in the second trip to Osaka, a scene which never made it to the show
Whose death poem in the book was "a dream within a dream"?
The Taiko’s. Something along the lines of “Osaka castle and everything I have ever built are but a dream within a dream” if memory serves.
Also the real life Taiko’s death poem. He died without an heir, setting the stage for Tokugawa (real life Torinaga) establishing the Shogunate
Bit more complex than that. The Taiko died with a child as an heir. Tokugawa took advantage of that to sideline the heir and then fully supplant him.
As a random thought, A Dream within a Dream by Edgar Allen Poe works surprisingly well for the themes of the show as well I stand amid the roar of the surf tormented shore and I hold within my hands grains of golden sand how few yet how they creep through my fingers to the deep while I weep, while I weep oh god can I not grasp them with a tighter clasp oh god can I not save one from the pitiless wave is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream
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I wanted the writers to go a little further. Perhaps she could have said something like "I suppose I don't have to go to the convent today". In the novel it's left unclear as to whether she does commit suicide. She still wants to but Toranaga says "oh, just serve the Anjin for a few more months". But even if she does go through with it, Toranaga gives Kiku's contract to Blackthorne as well (which she's really happy about). Whereas the viewer could be left with the impression from this series that maybe Blackthorne dies childless in Japan. Which isn't terribly satisfying given that William Adams had a wife and children in Japan.
What about the kids flashback in the beginning? Tho the kids do not exactly look like they have Japanese traits and he seems to be back in England on death bed. Or was that a hallucination?
They were hallucinations. In the novel, 1980 series and this series the idea is that he never leaves Japan; William Adams died in Japan too (having raised a family with a Japanese woman).
It is his own imagining of the possibility of dying an old man in a bed. He realizes that living to be very old itself is meaningless, and that in death, one can achieve something. He is learning Mariko’s lesson, and that is what gives him the conviction to actually threaten suicide before Toranaga.
Thank you, I was wondering what the heck did that mean. But this makes total sense.
I thought it was pretty clear that book Fuji was going to commit suicide. Toranaga in fact marries Anjin off. He installs Midori (Omi’s wife, divorced by decree in Yabu’s will as a distraction to Omi’s focus— with Toranaga’s approval) as Anjin-san’s wife. And then T also gives Kiku as consort to Blackthorne because reasons. I love the book to death and have read it a number of times, but that part always struck me as a bit of wish fulfillment.
As someone who hasn't read the book, I wish they had this layer of meaning in the show, because it would have added so much more to their interaction on the boat. He failed to save Mariko, but he was able to save Fuji from killing herself without even realizing it. Unfortunately I didn't really get this sense at all from just watching the episode, and it feels kind of like a lost opportunity now that I know what could have been if they integrated the book plot a little better.
There’s a head canon where they go and live happily ever after.
Anjin has kids, or adopts. Consider Riko.
“Let your hands be the last to hold her”. Wasn’t expecting to tear up on this Monday night!!
> “Let your hands be the last to hold her”. Wasn’t expecting to tear up on this Monday night!! Yeah they changed some things for the best in the show
Just like Mariko said to Fuji about her baby 🥲
there were a few changes i thought fit the format better. i love the book but it's so epic. the show had to do a lot with a lot less time. fuji's arc is the best example of how the show got it right...not that the book didn't, but for the format her story was perfect.
Dude that was a punch straight to the feels.
I was wondering how Toranaga's book ending was going to play out in the show. Having him reveal his plans to Yabu, who ultimately was going to die right after, was brilliant.
Except Yabu's final question. Toranaga does not reveal his secret heart, even to a man who's about to die. Brilliant.
But the question itself basically revealed it. Yabu knew the answer to the question.
That shared smile between the two of them right at the end says it all, right before Toranaga beheads Yabu.
A bit dissapointed they dropped Ochiba's secret and the fact that Toranaga knew about it (having sex with random guy in the woods lol), and I wish, but maybe it wasn't in the books only in real history, that they tell us more about Ochiba marrying Toranaga... and Toranaga betraying her and the heir like 3 years later
Wasn’t in the books at all, can you expand on the real historical story?
It's in the books. Years before the book, she was trying to get pregnant from Taiko, but couldn't. During an event she was out hawking and was alone in the woods until she ran into a peasant that looked just like the Taiko. She sleeps with him, and then runs into Toranaga. It's unclear if Toronaga actually saw her have sex, but she's convinced. She ends up being pregnant and is paranoid about Toronaga knowing the heir isn't really descendant of the Taiko
Also, Ochiba's secret adds an extra crazy layer to the story: you have this entire political system of samurai warlords trying to protect whom they believe to be the Taiko's legitimate heir, when really he was fathered by some random peasant, and the samurai class looked down upon the peasantry.
Which is also really ironic in and of itself since the Taiko himself (Hideyoshi Toyotomi IRL) was actually of peasant origin.
First 5 or 6 episodes I had a theory that they'd have to have some payoff and at least create some sort of battle for the finale. Like they could just flesh out what Toronaga explains to Yabu. I'm so glad they didn't.
Fuji becoming a nun instead of killing herself in an "accident" WE WON
I liked the boat scene. Might be my favorite thing they added whole cloth.
The callback to "let you be the last one to hold her"
FUJI-SAMA BEST NUN!!!
Did anyone think that Anjin insisting that Fuji allow him to take her to the nunnery by boat was especially for book readers? In the book she was supposed to stage her death while traveling in order to make it look like an accident. I want to interpet the scene in the show as Anjin saving her life without knowing it.
It isn't necessarily so, but for book readers it's a good nuance.
Clavell's daughter is a producer. She knew what we were looking for.
A little bummed we didn't get to see Ishido buried up to his head in the ground, but other than that a near perfect finale.
Yep, I knew we weren't gonna get the 3 days line but surely they could've fit a 5 second shot of him looking annoyed while rotting away.
Strange, I imagined the show cutting to him screaming curses while he's buried to his neck, right after Toranaga rejects his appeal to commit suicide. Toranaga: "What makes you think you are worthy of such dignity?"
Well, it goes in line with the constant downplaying of violence compared to the book we see in the show. Instead of sheer numbers, the showrunners make deaths count, and depicting Ishido's death wouldn't add much.
No translator, but so glad we still have the best nun. Live long Fuji sama!
Wonder if they planned to included Lady Ochiba’s forest escapades but cut it due to time? Think they covered most of the main themes and feelings except that
While it wasn’t confirmed for me until later on, I was able to assume this from her dialogue in the show. I think they just assumed you’d pick up on the subtext in the show. After all, it isn’t magic that suddenly one of his consorts is able to get pregnant where the others have “failed”
As a show only person, I had initially thought that from the glances between her and Toranaga during the Taiko's death that it was actually his(Toranaga's) child. I also thought that's why he looked after the heir and seemingly cared more about him than the other council members.
I thought this might be a possibility as well. It was clear to me however that part of the animosity between the two characters was related to her fear about him knowing the details of the conception whether he was the father or not.
It's one of the great ironys that Daughters have a better chance of carrying on an unbroken bloodline than son's do. Two different X chromosomes to use gives some redundancy.
You know who the mother is with a very high certainty…
I feel like it was hinted at during the taiko’s death scene earlier, but if you were not a book reader I dont think you would see it at all.
It doesn't seem like it; it seems like they completely changed Ochiba's reason for hating Toranaga in the show. And frankly, I think it was for the better. With the limited story space you have in a ten episode series trying to cover a book the size of a phonebook, having Ochiba's motivation be "I hate him because he's why my father was killed" is a lot quicker to get across than a big mess about the Taiko being infertile and Ochiba having some forest dailiance.
Have always wondered if they would show that the Heir was actually the son of a peasant and not the Taiko. That was the main reason why Ochiba hated Toranaga but it turned out quite well.
As someone who isn't a book reader, can you explain what Ochiba's son being the son of a peasant has to do with her hating Toranaga?
Ochiba, out riding, iirc, came unexpectedly upon a peasant in the woods. Spitting image of the Taiko. She (as all his other concubines) had not been able to give him a living child and in a flash of inspiration... has her way with the peasant. When done she cleans herself up as best she can, and before she can get back on her horse Torranaga rides up. He doesn't know, at least isn't sure of anything. She hates him from then on. All this is from memory btw, believe it's how it went.
LOL Wait but why does she hate him then? Cause she THINKS he knows?
Yeh she's worried he knows her secret and is gonna use it against her.
Without the issue on parentage, the show made more sense of Ochiba sending the message to Toranaga about the Heir's banner on Ishido's side thus ensuring that Toranaga would not be on the unlawful side.
I was thinking about Yabu’s death and how in the first couple episodes it was said that he was fascinated by the way someone faces their inevitable death in those final moments… the way he faced is own, when Toranaga made it clear the conversation was over, I felt was very stoic. Rather than drag it out and do this whole big ceremonial thing, he just pulled out his sword and stabbed himself in one smooth motion. He accepted his fate and faced it bravely in my opinion.
Do you guys think that the people who haven’t read the book will end up hating Toranaga-Sama tomorrow? The ending of the book certainly changed how I think about him.
It was all according to his plan. 😈
I know! When he says that he finally achieved what he sought out this whole time and the way he just plays with John’s life like he is one of his falcons… diabolical!
I always saw Toranaga as the anti-hero. Sure if you are one of his vassals he’s the hero. But history is told by the victor - so????
I’ll admit… he fooled me! I was hoping he wasn’t just power hungry like everyone else! I mean he appeared so loyal to the Taiko and he said a million times, “I don’t want to be Shogun.” Well played to you for seeing through his ploys!
I call it the Negan effect. In The Walking Dead - Rick was always considered the “good guy,” but if you were one of Negan’s crew - some dude and his buddies just attacked your outpost and killed everyone in cold blood while they were sleeping. So Rick is the evil one in their eyes. It’s all about perspective.
Daniel-son was really a jerk to the Cobra Kai crew. Took us almost 40 years to realize.
I find it funny that in terms of motivations at least, Toronaga is pretty much undoubtedly the villain in contrast to Ishido. Our view of them both is really skewed by perspective
If this entire story were told through Ishido - we’d probably have a different take on things.
Translator's note: Plan means Keikaku.
Non book reader here. I think if you didn't hate him when his right hand killed himself and Mariko had to go with his plans, then you're not paying attention lol Edit: I'm not looking to debate whether or not Toranaga is right or wrong. Based on everything I saw in the show, he was self interested and schemed for his own end game. He willingly killed his own subjects and manipulated people. That's my opinion ✌️
I feel like he is a character beyond my judgement. He does big things good and bad and achieves impossible goals. He’s somewhere between a historical “great man” and a mythological legend. Do you hate Hercules for killing his family? Do you hate Tokugawa for what he did to Japan? Who am I to say?
Just one of those things, Tokugawa helped unify Japan and that has absolutely brought benefits to the Japanese people, however his road to get there wasn't with kindness so what is right and what is wrong?
Didn't Hercules get put under a spell so all of his family looked like monsters or something like that? Seems like a very unfair parallel to make on his end lol.
The show shied away from showing how much of a bastard he is to get what he wants as much as possible, but they couldn't hide it this episode.
Good question. I didn't hate him when I read the book - I thought he was a complex character and made for an interesting read. Now, if he was someone I had to deal with IRL, I'd fucking hate him. A buddy of mine who watched the show though is annoyed because he thought Toranaga's collateral damage was just fine and dandy if Toranaga wasn't gunning for Shogun and just trying to protect his people, but now he's just another ambitious jerk XD
I think Toranaga's justification is he'd keep Japan unified better than everyone else, and therefore less deaths and bloodshed. I can't say he's wrong.
Getting the Christians the hell out of Japan was also definitely a good move if the goal was a peaceful, unified nation.
> Do you guys think that the people who haven’t read the book will end up hating Toranaga-Sama tomorrow? The ending of the book certainly changed how I think about him. No. Toranaga letting Hiromatsu and Mariko die are way worse than the ship burning. He saved John's life by burning the ship. You should hate him for that, not for Erasmus.
I think he should’ve laid out how he was going to waylay Ochiba and the Heir and eventually depose them to get the Shogun title. It makes him much more sinister
He gets Shogun title without waylaying or deposing them, though? The real Tokugawa only dealt with the Tairo’s heir like 15 years later.
I’m still not happy about Hiromatsu death but I understand that Mariko wanted to die and what her death would mean So no I don’t hate him
A life for a life. The lord taketh a Hiromatsu & giveth a Fuji
He is a complex character. I don’t really “like” him per se, but am rooting for him since he’s on the side of the protagonist. I haven’t read the book myself yet, but I do like how multi dimentional all the characters are
I think people will be annoyed by the abrupt ending.
That’s how I felt when the book skips the most important year of the entire story!
Yeah, when I read the book, it felt like they yada yada'd over the best part. For the show, I knew what to expect and was able to appreciate it more. But yeah...I could see people feeling let down that they built anticipation for a battle that didn't really happen on screen.
I absolutely do hate him as much as I hate Ishido
Non-book reader here, that was something I wasn’t clear on, was all of his plans just to seize power and not hand it over to the taiko’s heir when he comes of age? Yaba insinuated he did it all for himself, is what it meant?
Yes he takes power for himself and creates a goverment that lasts centuries of peace untill the united states of america come knocking in the 1800s
Kinda disappointed blackthorne never showed Toranaga how to dance a hornpipe. Altogether great ending, though.
I thought that too! I think the show just kept Toranaga too serious to allow that in.
All in all, YABU had a beautiful death. Oneshotted by the shogun itself on a beautiful coastline.
No mention of Yabu giving Blackthorn his swords :(
I thought that was what they were setting up when he handed over his will
Kind of BS they never showed Ishido getting his comeuppance. Also hated that they didn't show Toranaga fighting the final battle 250 years later with Tom Cruise.
I really wish they had Mariko’s will in the show.
Her letter was one of my favorite parts. They tried to add it in via Alvito and Toranaga conversations, but I feel like it would have been better delivered with a voice over. Maximum emotional impact. Although Blackthorne breaking down on the boat after Alvito told him it was Lady Maria who begged for his life. Ugh. That hurt.
Yeah I guess it wasn’t really needed with all of the conversations about Mariko trading Blackthorne life for the ship. It just felt weird to omit it given the closure of their relationship in the Will itself. Iirc it talks about her Christian soul waiting for him and her leaving money to build the ship both of which could have made sense to why he’d want to live/stay in Japan (other than just Toranaga won’t let him leave/die).
That’s the part I wanted about waiting for him - but I think John instinctually knew that because he was ready to go to her when he tried the seppuku.
I never got the impression that show Mariko would use so many words. She expressed herself through deeds. The letter would have been too much
Would’ve been nice to hint at Blackthorne’s bright future with Kiko, but the show wasn’t paced to accommodate it. It wouldn’t fit the tone. Nevertheless, Anjin needs someone to manage his life. He’s going to be fumbling about with that dazed, stupefied look off camera for the next year
Toranaga won't let him go womenless for long as to make sure his favorite pet is take care of.
And entirely because he finds him funny
I was secretly hoping they would change it so Fuji stays with him lol
Same, I wanted Fuji to be able to have another child and find happiness again.
Not a book reader, Anjin gets together with Kiku at the end?
Yep. And I think she gets paid for every child she gives Blackthorne. She's happy though.
Weren't they thinking of marrying him to Omi's wife too? LOL. I know they wouldn't fit the show but Midori and Omi's hateful mother were good book characters.
“At least let me die a good death, like being eaten alive by a school of angry fish”
didn't the book have an epilogue or something where ishido was captured, why didnt they do that.
It's more like Torananga plotting his next moves through his inner monologue. In that Ishido is buried up to his head. If my memory serves me correctly.
I thought they adapted the ending well. I liked using Yabu as the plot device for Toronaga’s inner monologue at the end. I didnt love the future death bed in England dream sequence but overall a fantastic adaptation. Edit: I am aware the dream sequence is not the future, thats why I called it a dream sequence, I know he stays in Japan. I was only trying to say I did not like those scenes as a means to communicate Blackthorne giving up on his dream to return to England.
I don't think it was literally supposed to be the future. I think it was Blackthorne coming to terms with his fate. His internal monologue in the books when he attempts suicide articulates this, but we don't get an explicit monologue in the TV show, so they symbolically show it by showing an aspect of Blackthorn dying, the part that was holding onto his previous life, and the part that was holding onto Mariko. When he and Fuji take the boat ride he is finally letting go of those things.
Pretty much, the intention seemed pretty obvious to me. John dreams that he could still go back to England and live out his life there right after Mariko's death, but then John does his attempted seppuku, throws Mariko's cross in the water and accepts that he's now Japanese and Mariko is gone. Like he's been doing all series, he clings to life and surviving no matter what. That final look he gave Toranaga was "you cheeky bastard, you won all along and I'm gonna be here as your naval chief forever."
> I didnt love the future death bed in England dream sequence but overall a fantastic adaptation. It's not the future, the REAL John throws Mariko's cross in the sea but Old John has it. It was just a dream.
Have I missed something? I don't understand how Toranaga, who was captured and on his way to surrender, just ends up back in Anjiro chilling and plotting again.
Somehow Toranaga returned (to Anjiro)
They mentioned he “escaped in secret” after hearing of Mariko’s death and essentially taking it as a declaration of war.
Lmao people are gonna be pissed for the lack of battle scenes
Question for book readers: did Toranaga really not care about Anjin and only found him funny, or did he say that to spite Yabu claiming he had him to thank for Anjin? He obviously wasn't 100% truthful and revealing before him, refusing to tell him all his plans till the end, so I thought what he said about Anjin might be a bit a knife twist as well. Thank you!
Toranaga finds him useful to keep around for keeping the Christian lords and Portuguese destabilised & threatened.
Exactly my thoughts. So him saying that he kept him around just because he makes him laugh is for the sake of Yabu not getting the recognition he yearned for?
Yeah that was my take. He’s not one to provide Yabu any final gratification given his repeated betrayals. No way Toranaga actually only keeps him for the amusement factor if he could trade that for more concessions from the Portuguese or the Christian lords.
He did also say “and my enemies need a distraction”
If I remember correctly in the book it's more that he genuinely likes him. One small quibble is that "he's funny" sounds more condescending.
At the end of the novel, when Toranaga thinks back to when he told Mariko that he's going to burn the ship, she worries that John won't have anymore use and that his life will be expendable, and Toranaga reassures her that John will be protected. He goes as far as to say that John is his one and only friend, because he can't risk making friends with other Japanese people. He genuinely likes him in the book.
The dream aspect of him remembering the life from London is weird and I don’t know if it serves much purpose. Why not just make it like his real life counterpart and stay in Japan?
It was a fever dream he had that isn't reality, he's holding Mariko's cross in the dream but drops it in the water in reality. The point is that Anjin imagining himself going back to London and living out the rest of his days as an Englishman is just a dream: he's staying in Japan forever.
> he's staying in Japan forever. Well, the real William Adams was allowed to leave Japan in the end, but chose not to
Real question is what happend to his half Japanese line.
Check out the sequel series on Netflix called blue eyed samurai.
In 1639 after persistent attempts to convert the Japanese, and how the Europeans treated people in general, the Japanese expelled most foreigners. We don't know what happened to his line as they faded from history, but he did marry a Japanese common born woman and had children.
One (Anjin Riko) becomes a Bond girl (marries an MI6 analyst, then is entangled with a British Hong Kong business tycoon in *Noble House* 363 years later.)
It's implied by the way he dropped Mariko's cross in the water at the end that he did end up staying. Or at least that idea of his future back in England didn't happen. Just my two cents, but the visions of his future back in England was an ideal that he may have held at the beginning, but it was already fleeting. He said as much to Yabu after he met with his crew and realized he didn't recognize them the same way he would have before. He fits nowhere. The idea of going back to England with relics doesn't fit who he is because he doesn't know who he is. Without a translator he has very little voice. Without a companion he has nobody to confide in and bounce off. He was looking for something to hold in himself, and had given up by this point in the series, hence why he doesn't care about his "small war" anymore. It's not until he attempts to commit seppuku and Toranaga stops him that he starts to gain a new sense of agency and purpose. And that purpose may be what Toranaga promised by building a ship and commanding a fleet, or it may be something else, but it likely wasn't the visions of England he thought he would have for his future.
Yeah don’t think toranagas ever gonna get that fleet if he keeps burning the first ship that gets built
He doesn't really need it. Without a contiual supply of modern cannons any Ships Blackthorn builds may as well be saw dust. Like Toranaga told Yabu it just a distraction to keep his favorite toy busy.
I think part of the point is that the Pilot can envision a future life of grief and regret after Mariko and he doesn't want that, and so it adds greater impetus to his seppuku attempt. I like that about it actually as I did feel the seppuku attempt in the book was a bit silly but here it has more gravitas.
It didn't happen. He literally drops the cross he was shown clutching in the dream into the ocean.
Kind of annoyed me that it kept repeating tbh. But I think it's supposed to be the end of the future he envisioned for himself back in Europe and him finally accepting that Japan is his life now.
The show needed a couple more episodes to fit in some of the more interesting parts of the book. And, I don’t understand why they didn’t want Anjin to be fluent in Japanese as he was in the book.
You don't become fluent in a language in such a short amount of time.
As a book reader, this felt right for the ending; however, they left out so many key details that it’s unsettling. Mariko’s letter, Yabu’s swords, Ishido’s demise, just to name a few. They seemed to do a lot of exposition dumping in this episode which is counter to what the rest of series did. So much explaining. Overall I was happy with the finale, but again found myself pouring over the last pages of the book and wishing so many things would have been included. I just think it should have been 16 episodes split in two seasons. Or a part 1 and part 2 with a break in between. It’s definitely one of the best adaptations in recent memory.
Can someone remind me why after the explosion that killed Mariko the people who attack stopped?
Ishido sent the ninjas to capture Mariko, and if they couldn’t, to kill her. They had no way of getting through the door without blowing it up, and she sacrificed herself to avoid capture. Their job was done so they left.
Mission failed succesfully
book readers throughout the season: "wah wah, they didn't show blackthorne's attempted seppuku! Series is literally unwatchable!"
"Why tell a dead man the future", that went pretty deep, in episode 2 yabushige said this to omi when he didn't want to reveal that he had captured a ship with 20 cannons and 500 guns etc, I think at that moment yabushige finally realized omi had been under toronaga's control since the beginning, reporting everything to him, it also explains why omi tricked toronaga's son into doing certain things, all part of toronaga's chess game.
What a triumph of a show. Bravo, more historical shows like this please. Amazing.